PN1

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Can I take the appearances, please. Mr Robson, you appear for the ASU?

PN2

MR M ROBSON: Yes, Vice President.

PN3

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Bull, you appear for the United Workers Union?

PN4

MR S BULL: That's correct, your Honour.

PN5

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Liebhaber, you appear for the HSU?

PN6

MS R LIEBHABER: Yes, that's correct, your Honour.

PN7

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: On the employer's side, Mr Arndt and Mr Cahill, you appear for Australian Business Industrial and New South Wales Business Chamber?

PN8

MR J ARNDT: That's correct, your Honour.

PN9

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Pegg, you appear for National Disability Services?

PN10

MR M PEGG: Yes, your Honour.

PN11

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Bhatt, you appear for the Ai Group?

PN12

MS R BHATT: Yes, Vice President.

PN13

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Warren, you appear for AFEI?

PN14

MR R WARREN: I do, your Honour, with Ms Lowe.

PN15

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, what was that again?

PN16

MR WARREN: With Ms Lowe.

PN17

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: With Ms Lowe. Thank you. All right. Your volume is a big low, Mr Warren, so I'm not sure - - -

PN18

MR WARREN: I will see if I can do something about that.

PN19

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that all the appearances? Yes, all right. Well, who is taking the lead with the unions?

PN20

MR ROBSON: That would be me, your Honour. We don't propose to open. Ms Brown is waiting to give evidence.

PN21

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Well, let's get Ms Brown on the line and we'll get her affirmed.

PN22

THE ASSOCIATE: Ms Brown, can you confirm that you can see and hear me?

PN23

MS BROWN: I can hear you, yes.

PN24

THE ASSOCIATE: Okay, great. Would you be able to state your full name and address, please.

PN25

MS BROWN: Angela Marie Brown, (address supplied).

PN26

THE ASSOCIATE: Thank you. I am going to read out this affirmation now and, once I've read that, would you be able to confirm if you agree or not by saying, "I do."

PN27

MS BROWN: Yes.

<ANGELA MARIE BROWN, AFFIRMED [11.12 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR ROBSON [11.12 AM]

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN XN MR ROBSON

PN28

MR ROBSON: Ms Brown, my name is Michael Robson. We have spoken before. I am an industrial officer from the ASU, my name is Michael Robson. We have spoken before. I am an industrial officer from the Australian Services Union. Could you please state your name for the record?‑‑‑Angela Marie Brown.

PN29

Have you made a witness statement for these proceedings?‑‑‑I have, yes.

PN30

Do you have that in front of you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN31

It runs to six pages and it is dated 20 May 2020?‑‑‑Yes.

PN32

Excellent. Is your statement true and correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN33

Thank you. No questions from me, your Honour.

PN34

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN35

MR ROBSON: I tender that statement.

PN36

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The statement of Angela Brown, dated 20 May, will be marked exhibit 1.

EXHIBIT #1 STATEMENT OF ANGELA BROWN DATED 20/05/2020

PN37

Are you first, Mr Arndt?

PN38

MR ARNDT: No, your Honour. Mr Warren.

PN39

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Warren. All right, Mr Warren.

PN40

MR WARREN: Yes, your Honour.

PN41

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We're still having a problem hearing you, Mr Warren.

PN42

MR WARREN: I'm sorry, I thought I had turned it up. Can you hear me now?

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN XN MR ROBSON

PN43

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Only faintly.

PN44

MR WARREN: I'm not sure how to fix that.

PN45

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Can everyone else hear Mr Warren?

PN46

MS BHATT: Faintly.

PN47

MR ROBSON: Very faintly, your Honour.

PN48

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, all right. I've got my volume turned up to the max, Mr Warren, so - - -

PN49

MR WARREN: I'm getting a technical person down. I hope they can fix it for me.

PN50

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The closer you stay, it helps.

PN51

MR WARREN: Okay. Is that better now?

PN52

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That is better, yes.

PN53

MR WARREN: Okay, fine.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARREN [11.14 AM]

PN54

MR WARREN: Ms Brown, my name is Ralph Warren. I am going to ask some questions of you on behalf of AFEI. A bundle of documents were supplied by your employer as a result of a notice to produce by ABL. Do you have those documents with you or access to those documents?‑‑‑I do, on the computer.

PN55

Fine. Thank you. Your Honours, Commissioner, it's probably best if I tender parts of those documents so I can then ask questions of this witness from those documents. I'm assuming the Commission has access to those documents.

PN56

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think I do. Just hold on a sec.

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN XXN MR WARREN

PN57

MR WARREN: I can indicate I understand the documents were re‑filed yesterday and were paginated 1 through to page 161.

PN58

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Just hold on a sec.

PN59

MR WARREN: Your Honour, I was going to indicate to the Commission those pages that I intended tendering.

PN60

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Just hold on a sec. I have it now. It's all scanned sideways, but you go ahead.

PN61

MR WARREN: Your Honours, Commissioner, I intended tendering in page numbers page numbers 11 to 19.

PN62

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN63

MR WARREN: 23 to 32.

PN64

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN65

MR WARREN: 34 to 35.

PN66

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN67

MR WARREN: 38 to 39.

PN68

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN69

MR WARREN: 44 to 47, 52 to 59, 83 and 84, pages 102 through to 157.

PN70

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Warren, I'm going to ask you to actually prepare a bundle which contains those pages - - -

PN71

MR WARREN: Yes.

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN XXN MR WARREN

PN72

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: - - - and send it through. I'll provisionally mark - I'll call that the AFEI bundle and I'll mark that exhibit 2.

EXHIBIT #2 AFEI BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS

PN73

Can you pull out those pages and scan them perhaps the right way around, and then - - -

PN74

MR WARREN: Yes, it will be done, your Honour. Thank you. It's being done now as we speak, as I understand.

PN75

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN76

MR WARREN: Now, Ms Brown, do you have with your statement which is marked exhibit 1 in these proceedings?‑‑‑I do.

PN77

Thank you. You indicate at paragraph 30 that there was a woman that you suspected of being unwell and was a potential Covid‑19 sufferer. You came on shift on 31 March, did you, and came to that conclusion or that concern?‑‑‑I didn't come to the conclusion that she had Covid. I thought perhaps she needed testing. She had cold and flu‑like symptoms.

PN78

I'm just going to lock down the date. By looking at other parts of your statement, it appears that was 31 March, the Thursday?‑‑‑Yes, that's right.

PN79

What time did you come on shift?‑‑‑2.30, I think.

PN80

I see. You then - - -?‑‑‑I do different shifts.

PN81

But on that day you recall coming on mid‑afternoon?‑‑‑I'm just going to confirm for you.

PN82

Thank you?‑‑‑It was actually Thursday, 28 May.

PN83

Of May or - I think it was 1 May that she was tested. 1 May?‑‑‑Sorry, sorry, you're right.

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN XXN MR WARREN

PN84

That's all right?‑‑‑So it would have been - yes, Thursday, the 30th, I worked 2.30 until 8 o'clock.

PN85

Wasn't the Friday the 1st? I'm not trying to trick you. I just want to get the dates clear?‑‑‑Sorry, I'll just have to go back in my diary again. Yes, Friday was the 1st.

PN86

So on the Thursday you came on shift?‑‑‑Yes.

PN87

You had some concerns. You didn't accompany her to the clinic - or to the hospital. I think you said she went to an emergency section of the hospital. You did not accompany her there, someone else did. You stayed with the other residents in the home. Is that right?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN88

How many other residents in the home?‑‑‑Four.

PN89

Four. Is that four others or three others?‑‑‑So on that particular day there would have been three after she was taken to the clinic.

PN90

How was that organised with the other fellow member of staff? Was that member of staff already at the home when you called?‑‑‑No, I called the office to say that I thought she had flu‑like symptoms and that we needed to do something about it, so they organised staff.

PN91

I see, organised the staff member to attend and take her to the hospital?‑‑‑That's right.

PN92

That was unsuccessful so far as getting a Covid‑19 test was concerned, I understand. Is that right?‑‑‑That's right.

PN93

So the following - - -?‑‑‑The clinic was closed.

PN94

Sorry? The clinic was closed?‑‑‑The clinic was closed.

PN95

So the following day she went to the clinic. Did you take her to the clinic or did the other member of staff take her to the clinic?‑‑‑Another staff person did.

PN96

She was tested there. So that's the Friday she was tested?‑‑‑Yes.

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN XXN MR WARREN

PN97

I think your evidence then goes to indicate that on the Sunday you were advised that she was clear of Covid‑19?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN98

She was in isolation - or to be in isolation in her room for the Friday, Saturday and Sunday until you were advised?‑‑‑That started on the Thursday night, the isolation.

PN99

That was not on medical advice, that was on your initiative. Is that right?‑‑‑No, that was on instructions from my boss.

PN100

I see. Thank you. So you followed the procedure of telephoning for additional assistance and that assistance was provided, and a member of staff attended to take the person to hospital on the Friday. Is that right - or the Thursday night?‑‑‑On the Friday. That's correct.

PN101

Fine. Thank you. Now, in this house they are all female residents, I assume?‑‑‑That's right.

PN102

You currently at that stage had personal protective equipment sufficient for dealing with a person with suspected Covid‑19?‑‑‑No, we didn't.

PN103

When were you provided with that?‑‑‑After we spoke to them on the Thursday night and they realised that she was going into - they asked for her to go into isolation, so they said they would provide us with more PPE. There obviously wasn't going to be enough. We only had a limited supply. We don't use gowns and shoe covers on a regular basis or face masks.

PN104

So the gowns and shoe covers were provided. You had some there, but not sufficient for all the staff. Is that what you're saying?‑‑‑That's right, yes. We didn't have enough. It's not something we use regularly.

PN105

No, but you had at the time when you suspected this lady may have Covid‑19 - you had gowns, you had gloves, you had masks, but you're saying - - -?‑‑‑No, we didn't have gowns.

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN XXN MR WARREN

PN106

What did you have?‑‑‑So we had some PPE in the houses, but not a lot. Going back on - I'm just trying to remember. We were given extra PPE, so we had maybe some - we've always got gloves because we use gloves all the time. We had like four masks because we don't normally use masks in day‑to‑day work. We have aprons, but not gowns. We had a few gowns that they had provided. They had started to provide us with a PPE kit - Covid kit - so we had a few gowns, but obviously because you have to change your gown every time you go into that room and come out, they had to source other PPE from other houses.

PN107

That was done on the Friday. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes, Thursday/Friday.

PN108

Thank you. Now, you said you always use gloves. You use gloves as a matter of course when you're administering any medication to your residents, I suppose?‑‑‑Yes, we use gloves quite a lot. So we use gloves for when we administer medication, when we're cooking, when we're showering, assisting with toileting, laundry.

PN109

All the time in any event?‑‑‑Pretty much, yes.

PN110

Now, you indicated in paragraph 44 you had a problem with another resident who was away with her family. She came back and you then put her into isolation. Is that what occurred?‑‑‑No, she came into the house. She hadn't been there prior because she had been away at her family, so she came in - she came home to her house and we just needed to apply additional social distancing, just what we were doing with everybody else in the house.

PN111

So there was no difference with her. She fell back in - - -?‑‑‑She filled out the declaration form - well, she didn't fill it out, her mum filled it out to say that she hadn't been in contact with anyone and then she came into the house. So it was just a normal social distancing that was maintained, the normal cleaning procedures, just everything else that we had been doing since the Thursday night. Like, the extra cleaning that we had been doing since she had gone into isolation with suspected Covid.

PN112

Just so we have it clear then, from the Thursday night to the Sunday when at that stage you knew that she did not have - or she had tested negative for Covid‑19, she was in isolation and there were isolation procedures acting in the house. Is that right?‑‑‑That's right, from Thursday to the Sunday.

PN113

Then after that time you were just doing normal social distancing requirements of the regulations with Covid‑19?‑‑‑That's right, yes, and the cleaning.

PN114

That occurred over the Thursday night through to the Sunday until you found out she was not positive for Covid‑19. I just want to be clear on that?‑‑‑The extra cleaning is still being maintained now, so we - - -

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN XXN MR WARREN

PN115

When you say "extra cleaning" - go on, sorry?‑‑‑The cleaning of anything that is touched by other participants. Door handles, telephones, all those types of things are constantly cleaned and have been constantly cleaned since the beginning of Covid.

PN116

So the additional matters that occurred from the Thursday night to the Sunday were, in essence, the isolation of this particular resident and you wearing gowns whenever you went into a room or did any other procedure with her. Is that right?‑‑‑That's right.

PN117

But after the Sunday you then no longer had to wear gowns when you went into her room. You wore gloves, as you indicated earlier to the Commission, when showering which you do in any event and toileting which you do in any event. Is that right?‑‑‑That's right.

PN118

Right. Thank you?‑‑‑But there is still the extra cleaning.

PN119

Yes, the cleaning of handles with an appropriate - - -?‑‑‑Communal areas. That's right, communal areas; chairs, TV remotes. Anything that any participant touched.

PN120

I see. Thank you. Now, since that event on the 31st and 1 May, there has been no other person in the house that has been suspected or indeed tested for Covid‑19?‑‑‑Resident-wise, no. That's right.

PN121

Indeed, have you been tested for Covid‑19?‑‑‑No, I haven't.

PN122

Wasn't that recommended by the management?‑‑‑There is also an email missing - a follow‑up email - that came out after that one. So, yes, they did recommend that we had it, but then when I rang and spoke to the GM and I said to her, "Do you realise that when you have the test done you can't work until you have the result?" she didn't realise that and she said that she had been in contact with the hospital and she was not aware of that information, and so then she re‑sent out another email and we were advised to have testing if we had symptoms.

PN123

And only if you had symptoms?‑‑‑That's right.

PN124

I see?‑‑‑Or if you wanted to.

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN XXN MR WARREN

PN125

Now, as I understand it, on 26 March this year there was a general Covid‑19 procedure sent to all staff at the home. Is that right?‑‑‑The updates on what was discussed at the staff meeting.

PN126

Yes. Do you have the bundle of documents that I indicated to the Commission earlier I intended tendering?‑‑‑I do, yes. Page 11.

PN127

Page 11 and following appears to be a notification from the accommodation coordinator attaching Covid‑19 group home processes that were discussed at the meeting. You were at that meeting?‑‑‑Everybody had to attend separate meetings, yes.

PN128

There I note on page 14 that the procedure for Covid‑19 is set out that you were required to carry out in your normal duties. Is that right?‑‑‑That's right.

PN129

Cleaning of door handles, lounges, benches, et cetera?‑‑‑That's right. The Covid‑19 cleaning, yes.

PN130

The wearing of gloves at all times?‑‑‑That's right.

PN131

Now, there was also a need to complete a wellness declaration. You see that attached at the back of that, on page 19?‑‑‑I do.

PN132

You do that every day, do you, when you turn up for work?‑‑‑We did.

PN133

Did?‑‑‑We did.

PN134

You don't now?‑‑‑We don't, no.

PN135

When did you cease doing that?‑‑‑I'm not sure of the exact date. It would have been an email, but we were told by management that we didn't require to do it any more as we came on shift, but participants that were coming and going from the house did.

PN136

I see. All right. Thank you. I note on page 23 that there is an advice there with respect to getting the back orders of PPE and the need for you to notify if you were running low on anything. You have carried out those procedures - or that request?‑‑‑Sorry, to notify who? Yes, sorry, notify if we're running low on anything.

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN XXN MR WARREN

PN137

Yes. The name of the person has been redacted from my copy?‑‑‑Yes, yes, I can see that. That's right, because we did - - -

PN138

I'm sorry, I - - -?‑‑‑Well, not me personally. The house has many staff that come on shifts; that have specific duties to do on each shift. It's the night shift that notify - - -

PN139

So that's not one of your duties?‑‑‑No, the night shift notify. Obviously if I was there and using the PPE and it had run out or we were low, but there's a procedure in process.

PN140

That's (audio malfunction) responsibility, you're saying, is it?‑‑‑That's right, to check it and to notify.

PN141

Now, at page 25 there are further notifications from the general manager to all staff and the requirements to once again follow the Covid‑19 procedure. Do you see that? That procedure is repeated again at page 27?‑‑‑Yes, I can see that.

PN142

As I understand it, the lady who you suspected of having some difficulties and potential Covid‑19, there is an email from the general manager to staff generally - and it's at page 34. It's to all staff advising of the need, because she had a fever - do you see that notification there?‑‑‑I do.

PN143

Once again, reinforcing the Covid‑19 procedure which is attached. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN144

Thank you. Now, I asked you a question earlier with respect to you being tested for Covid‑19. This is at page 38; I see on 27 April there was a request that all workers be tested. You didn't carry that out, I gather. At a later stage that was retracted, was it?‑‑‑That's because I had the conversation with the GM on the day she sent out that email.

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN XXN MR WARREN

PN145

What did you say to the GM?‑‑‑I just asked her if she was aware that once you have the test done - well, what I did was I got the email, I rang the COVIC clinic and I confirmed that once you have the test done you are advised to not go to work. They said to me, "Yes, that is the procedure", so then I rang the GM And I said to the GM, "I've rung the Covid clinic. Are you aware that by us going and having the test done we then cannot work until the results - until you know the result?" She said, no, she was not aware of that. She had been in contact with the hospital and they did not tell her that, so she then sent out another email which I don't see here.

PN146

Nor do I and we'll make inquiries as to that. Now, as I understand it, therefore you only were required to be tested if you exhibited some symptoms that you might suspect were Covid‑19 symptoms?‑‑‑That's right.

PN147

Thank you. You indicated earlier when you had this suspicion that this particular resident - that she may have Covid‑19, that you called someone; you called management. Do you see at page 44 of the bundle of documents there is an on‑call policy and procedure that obviously if you consider it to be an emergency you dial triple O and if you don't follow that procedure you contact the on‑call person. Was it the on‑call person that you contacted when you say you contacted management?‑‑‑No, because the on‑call procedure is followed after 5 o'clock.

PN148

It's an out of hours - - -?‑‑‑The on‑call procedure goes from 5 o'clock in the afternoon until 9 o'clock in the morning when the office - when the managers aren't available.

PN149

I see. So the managers were available and you contacted the manager accordingly?‑‑‑That's right. So the on‑call policy was not required to be followed.

PN150

Now, Ms Brown, your current contract of employment is found in the bundle of documents. At page 52 and following there is - it has obviously been redacted, your name, from that, but you would recognise that as your current contract of employment?‑‑‑My current one, yes.

PN151

That was as a result - - -?‑‑‑It has actually changed again, but, yes, at the time of you requesting the documents that would have been current.

PN152

So as at that time you were working on a permanent part‑time basis, 24 hours per week. Is that right?‑‑‑It's more than 24 hours, but, yes - - -

PN153

It is now more than 24 hours or do you work - - -?‑‑‑It has always been more than 24 hours. If you requested the time sheets, you would see that I work over 40 hours a fortnight.

PN154

Your roster of ordinary hours is 24 hours, as I understand. Is that right?‑‑‑(No audible reply)

PN155

There is a roster found at page 56 of the document.

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN XXN MR WARREN

PN156

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Just to be clear, are we talking per week or per fortnight? I think the witness said per fortnight.

PN157

MR WARREN: I'm talking per week, your Honour. I'm instructed that her ordinary hours are 24 hours per week.

PN158

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Brown, when you gave an earlier answer you said over 40 hours per fortnight. Did you mean per week?‑‑‑No, I didn't. Sorry, I thought we were talking fortnight, so that was my mistake. 24 hours a week, yes.ours a

PN159

Yes, all right. Thank you.

PN160

MR WARREN: Thank you very much. I note further in the document, at pages 83 to 84, is indeed the report that was prepared by the person who took the ill resident to have a Covid‑19 test on 1 May. Is that right? You see it there at pages 83 to 84?‑‑‑Yes. I do, yes.

PN161

It speaks in terms of self‑isolating until results are returned and those results came back on Sunday, 3 May. Is that correct?‑‑‑Sorry, I'm just still finding - - -

PN162

That's all right?‑‑‑Page 83, so - yes, "Self‑isolate until results are returned." That's right, yes.

PN163

On your evidence that was on the Sunday. That's as I understand your - - -?‑‑‑That's right, because we rang - we actually rang on‑call on the Sunday because we were told it would be seven days before we had results.

PN164

Yes?‑‑‑So we rang on‑call and said there's actually a number that you can call. They called that number and then notified us that her result was negative.

PN165

That was fortunate. Thank you. Now, as I understand - go through to page 102 - it speaks of Centro ASSIST. That's your Intranet provider, isn't it?‑‑‑Sorry, what number was it?

PN166

Page 102?‑‑‑Okay, sorry, I'm not there yet. I'm on 102, yes.

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN XXN MR WARREN

PN167

You see you're invited to joint Centro ASSIST. I was just explaining, for the purposes of the Commission, Centro ASSIST is - what do you understand it to be?‑‑‑What do I understand it - - -

PN168

As I understand, I'm instructed Centro ASSIST is some Intranet provider for your organisation?‑‑‑That's right.

PN169

I see. Thank you. Then I note that on 16 October 2019 there was circulated to all staff infection control procedures, which are set out from page 103 through 107. You see that?‑‑‑I do, yes.

PN170

Those are the infection control procedures particularly with respect to hand hygiene, on page 104, indicating you should have "5 Moments for Hand Hygiene". This is in October 2019. Do you understand that to be the case?‑‑‑That's right, yes.

PN171

Thank you, Ms Brown. One moment, please. Excuse me, I'm just going to check my notes here. Thank you, Ms Brown, and thank you, your Honour.

PN172

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Parties, is there any other cross‑examination of this witness?

PN173

MR ARNDT: Not from us, your Honour.

PN174

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Robson, any re‑examination?

PN175

MR ROBSON: Yes, your Honour.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ROBSON [11.44 AM]

PN176

MR ROBSON: Ms Brown, you were asked about the additional cleaning in the house that was implemented when the client had started isolating. How is that additional cleaning different from the normal cleaning that is carried out in the house - that was carried out in the house before then?‑‑‑So every time - the potential, like, Covid case shared a bathroom, so every time the person went into the bathroom we were told that we had to disinfect every part of that bathroom once they left. So then we had to put on PPE, go into the bathroom and the toilet, the toilet roll holder, the rail that she holds onto to get up with, the floor, the basin, the mirror - anything that she touched - the door handle, the door, had to be cleaned. That is not a procedure that we normally do with participants sharing the bathroom. They normally just go in and out of the bathroom as they please.

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN RXN MR ROBSON

PN177

Yes. How did you feel when you were cleaning the bathroom in that way?‑‑‑It was a little bit stressful, only because we would have to get her back into her room, we had to clean the bathroom, but we still had three other participants to care for, as well. You also wanted to do it properly. You couldn't do it quickly, you had to do it efficiently, so it was just a little bit stressful.

PN178

Yes. Was there any other additional cleaning that is different from what you did in the past?‑‑‑We were advised to clean, like, anything that the other participants had touched. The washing - we were doing her washing. We had to gown up to do the washing and then we had to sterilise the washing machine after we had done her washing.

PN179

Do you normally sterilise the washing machine after doing a client's washing?‑‑‑It normally gets sterilised once a day.

PN180

Okay?‑‑‑It just gets cleaned with - yes, normally once a day, but anything that we washed of hers - - -

PN181

Okay?‑‑‑There was also the disposing of the PPE. Once we had done the bathroom and then taken off the PPE, and then put it into the bags, then we had to take it outside.

PN182

That is every time you disposed of PPE you had to take it outside?‑‑‑That's right, yes. It had to go outside into the bin.

PN183

Is that your normal practice for disposing of PPE?‑‑‑Yes, you would normally do that, but we had never had to wear it as often as we did that weekend.

PN184

Right. You were asked about some of the PPE equipment that you used, specifically gowns. Have you ever used gowns before in your work as a disability support worker?‑‑‑No, I haven't worn gowns and I haven't had training in how to - the correct procedure to put on or take off PPE.

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN RXN MR ROBSON

PN185

Did the use of gowns have any impact on your clients?‑‑‑Yes, because they were aware that we were doing something different because they hadn't been notified, nor had their families, so they were concerned as to why we were putting - like, why we were taking stuff to a certain area, why we were putting gowns on, taking them off. They didn't actually see us - they would see you with a gown on, but then they wouldn't see you take the gown off or anything like that because they were in a different area and we had to maintain that they stayed in a different area of the house.

PN186

Yes?‑‑‑But they were alerted - they were concerned as to why we were putting gowns on that covered us from head to foot and masks and stuff, yes.

PN187

You were taken to a document - that's at page 34 of the bundle?‑‑‑Yes, I will have to go right back. Sorry.

PN188

That's okay. Take your time. Let me know when you're there?‑‑‑Okay, I'm on page - yes, I'm at page 34.

PN189

Yes. You were shown this document by Mr Warren. Can you see how there are a number of numbered dot points?‑‑‑The little black bits?

PN190

No, halfway down the page - - -?‑‑‑No, sorry, dot - - -

PN191

Yes, so like there is a paragraph numbered 1?‑‑‑Yes, yes. Sorry, yes.

PN192

That refers to a doorbell and new thermometers, and disinfectant. What are the doorbells used for?‑‑‑So we have one participant that had not long before Covid got a doorbell, so that if she needed assistance in the toilet she would ring the doorbell. The doorbell was given - we had another doorbell delivered to be given to the possible Covid patient so that if she wanted a drink - because she couldn't come out of her room, so there was one staff person there on shift at a time so if she needed something she would ring the doorbell. The thermometers that we had were thermometers that went under your arm, which were no good. Yes, so we rang the office and asked if we could have different thermometers and we needed more disinfectant because we were going to be doing a lot of cleaning over that weekend, so they had to deliver disinfectant to us.

PN193

Yes. So the client was forced to remain in their room and had to summon you in some way if they had a need?‑‑‑That's right. That's exactly right, yes.

PN194

That meant if they wanted a glass of water or needed to use the bathroom - - -?‑‑‑That's right. We had to, yes, gown up, assist them and then take the PPE off, clean the area that they had been in if they had been in an area and take it outside, put it in the bin.

PN195

Each and every time that they had a need?‑‑‑That's right. We weren't allowed to wear anything twice.

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN RXN MR ROBSON

PN196

Thank you. The client who was isolating in their room, how did it affect them that you were wearing - that they were forced to remain in their room, sorry?‑‑‑She wasn't happy about being in her room. She asked a lot of questions. She knew she had had the Covid testing done and she knew that she was waiting for the result, and we just reassured her that once the result had come through she would be able to leave her room, but she cried a few times, she said she was bored, she wanted something to do. There was no TV in her room. Not that she watches a lot of TV, but there wasn't a lot for her to do in her room, so she was - her anxiety levels were, you know, raised a little and we reassured her that as soon as the testing either way - if the testing came back positive, then we're going to be staying here longer. If the testing comes back negative, then, you know, we'll be able to go back to the way we were, you know, a few days ago with Covid.

PN197

Yes. When you were taking her out of the room, for example to use the bathroom, what was her emotional response to that procedure?‑‑‑Well, look, she knew - she just wasn't happy. She wasn't happy within herself. She understood that we had to wear the PPE in case the test came back positive, but when she was, you know, heading to the bathroom and heading out of the bathroom we had to remind her - "I'm sorry, we have to go straight back to your room. We can't go out." "I just want a cup of tea." "I know you just want a cup of tea, but we just have to do everything in the room."

PN198

How did the other clients in the house react when their housemate had to leave her room in this way?‑‑‑They asked a lot of questions as to why she was in her room, "When will she be coming back out of her room? When can she join us again?" Like, "When can we do stuff together?" We were just like, "We're just waiting on a test result to come back and then" - you know, we just had to do it day by day and just reassure them they were safe where they were and that, you know, we were looking after them.

PN199

Yes. You were also shown a wellness declaration and patients had to fill that out every time they came in and out of the house?‑‑‑That's right. That was something that had been brought in and that we had to do, so that weekend when we went into isolation we were advised that nobody was to - we weren't allowed to have any visitors to the house and nobody was to leave the house, so effectively that's what we did, but then there was one participant that was away and so she had to come back to the house. She didn't have to, but obviously, you know, her mum wanted her to come back so she came back to the house and she needed to fill in the form. This was a form that staff were filling in every day, as well, which is something we had never done before.

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN RXN MR ROBSON

PN200

So the patients don't necessarily fill out the forms themselves?‑‑‑No, no, no, no, the staff - if their parents bring them back, we ask the parents to, or if they come back via taxi from where they have been - from, you know, their parents' house, their family's houses - then we ring - we have one participant and we ring her mother when she arrives back at the house, and we go through the declaration form with her mum.

PN201

Yes?‑‑‑Then they sign it. They all have a signature that they can sign, so they sign it, but we read it out and we go through it with them. They can't do it by themselves.

PN202

Do any of the clients have disabilities that might affect their ability to fill out a form themselves?‑‑‑Yes, some of them can't write.

PN203

Do any of the clients have disabilities that mean they have trouble communicating - - -

PN204

MR WARREN: Your Honour, I think we have gone past the re‑examination situation here.

PN205

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Well, I'll allow it, Mr Warren. If you want to ask any further questions, you can. I think we have got plenty of time.

PN206

MR ROBSON: Do patients have any disabilities that mean they have trouble explaining how they are feeling or their physical state?‑‑‑Some of them have limited - or one of them has limited verbal communication. They can all communicate with us, but, I mean, they do have varying different forms. You know, we have one lady that has schizoaffective disorder, we have autisms, we have dementia, so, yes, they're not always - and we have two of them that have low - like slight intellectual disabilities, so then they have trouble cognitively understanding - you know, following instructions and things like that.

PN207

Okay. Thank you. You were also asked about the advice you had received from your employer about testing. You told Mr Warren that there was an additional email that you had received that had been sent to staff by the GM that changed her advice that all staff had been tested because it would mean - - -?‑‑‑Yes, that's right. I mean, if I could get into my emails I could - - -

PN208

That's all right.

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN RXN MR ROBSON

PN209

MR WARREN: I'm sorry, your Honour, could I interrupt? I have just been handed the email that I believe this witness was referring to. We apologise for not sending it through earlier. Ms Lowe is in the process now of sending that through to the Commission. It's an email of 27 April 2020 and it's to all staff. Maybe it might assist my friend now, I'll just read from that email:

PN210

I have just been informed that once you have a Covid‑19 test completed at the hospital the guidelines are that you self‑isolate until your results come back, which could be between one to five days. This information was not told to us when we made the inquiry, so if you are having symptoms please go and get tested immediately and please advise your supervisor of this test.

PN211

I don't believe the witness indicated that part in her - - -

PN212

MR ROBSON: Thank you.

PN213

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Warren, when you do your bundle perhaps that can be added to exhibit 2.

PN214

MR WARREN: It will be, your Honour. Thank you.

PN215

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Mr Robson?

PN216

MR ROBSON: Ms Brown, do you know why the general manager changed her advice upon finding out that staff would have to self‑isolate if they had been tested?‑‑‑I believe because I told her.

PN217

MR WARREN: With respect, your Honour, that's not - - -

PN218

THE WITNESS: I rang and informed her. She said that she had been in contact with the hospital and the hospital had not told her that when anybody gets tested the advice that they then give you is to isolate until the results have come through. I just rang and told her and she said, no, she didn't know, and she would ring and check, then we got the email. I suppose she confirmed with the hospital.

PN219

MR ROBSON: Thank you, Ms Brown. No further questions from me.

PN220

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Warren, did you want to ask anything arising out of all that?

PN221

MR WARREN: No, your Honour, but I can indicate we will attach that email I've just referred to, to the bundle of documents.

*** ANGELA MARIE BROWN RXN MR ROBSON

PN222

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Thank you. Thank you for your evidence, Ms Brown. You're excused, which means you can simply disconnect from the conference?‑‑‑Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.00 PM]

PN223

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I understand the next witness, Ms Cudmore, is now available.

PN224

THE ASSOCIATE: She's in the lobby, Vice President. I will just admit her now.

PN225

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you.

PN226

THE ASSOCIATE: Ms Cudmore, would you be able to state your full name and address, please.

PN227

MS CUDMORE: Susan Cudmore, my address is (address supplied).

<SUSAN CUDMORE, AFFIRMED [12.01 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR CAHILL [12.01 PM]

PN228

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Arndt.

PN229

MR CAHILL: Your Honour, this is Mr Cahill from ABLA.

PN230

Ms Cudmore, can you hear and see me?‑‑‑I can. I will just move my cursor. Yes.

PN231

Could you please state your full name for the transcript, please?‑‑‑Susan Cudmore.

PN232

And have you prepared a witness statement in these proceedings?‑‑‑I have.

PN233

Is that statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?‑‑‑It is.

PN234

Thank you. Your Honour, I seek to tender Ms Cudmore's statement.

*** SUSAN CUDMORE XN MR CAHILL

PN235

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. The statement of Sue Cudmore dated 20 May 2020 will be marked exhibit 3.

EXHIBIT #3 STATEMENT OF SUSAN CUDMORE DATED 20/05/2020

PN236

Who wishes to cross-examine Ms Cudmore?

PN237

MR ROBSON: That will be me, your Honour.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROBSON [12.02 PM]

PN238

MR ROBSON: Ms Cudmore, my name is Michael Robson. I'm an industrial officer for the Australian Services Union. I'm going to ask you a few questions. Ms Cudmore, there are two parts to Health Service Alliance business. Is that right?‑‑‑There are two - yes, there are two - yes, we call them business streams. We have our community care business stream and nursing recruitment business stream.

PN239

How many employees are engaged in the nursing business stream?‑‑‑We have active employees - we did a - I did a review, 5800 active employees registered with our nursing agencies across the country.

PN240

How many employees are engaged in the community and disability sector business stream?‑‑‑450.

PN241

400. Are those employees covered by the SCHADS award?‑‑‑There are two industrial instruments. The SCHADS award is one, and the other is an EBA.

PN242

How many of those 450 employees are covered by the SCHADS award?‑‑‑They - proportionally about 30 per cent, 30 to 35 per cent.

PN243

So the majority of the employees in the community and disability sector stream aren't covered by the SCHADS award?‑‑‑Correct. At this point in time.

PN244

Are any of the nursing employees covered by the SCHADS award?‑‑‑No.

PN245

So only a small minority of your employees are covered by the SCHADS award?‑‑‑Yes, about 35 to 40 per cent, but growing.

*** SUSAN CUDMORE XXN MR ROBSON

PN246

What's the reason why some employees are covered by an enterprise agreement in ‑ ‑ ‑ ?‑‑‑It's a legacy issue with a previous acquisition. The previous acquisition used that enterprise agreement, and the new - that's why we've kept that in place currently.

PN247

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, Ms Cudmore, can I just go back a step. Mr Robson - this is Hatcher VP. Mr Robson said only a small minority are covered the SCHADS award, and then you said - did you say 35 to 40 per cent?‑‑‑Correct.

PN248

I don't think that's a small minority. Do you just want to clarify that again, Mr Robson. I think I missed that.

PN249

MR ROBSON: So of the 450 employees that are employed in the community and disability sector stream, 30 per cent of them are covered by the SCHADS award?‑‑‑I said 35 to 40 per cent.

PN250

35 to 40?‑‑‑I don't have my calculator, but I could do my calculator if you like.

PN251

No, that's fine. Your best estimate.

PN252

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So it's 35 to 40 per cent of the 450 in the community and disability sector?‑‑‑Correct.

PN253

MR ROBSON: So it's fair to - I apologise, your Honour.

PN254

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you.

PN255

MR ROBSON: It's fair to say the majority of your employees are engaged in nursing?‑‑‑No. Of the whole business, is that what you're asking?

PN256

Yes, indeed?‑‑‑Yes. So of Health Solutions Group, that 5800 are nurses. And as I said, in the community and disability support business stream, 450 are those employees, of which 35 to 40 per cent are employed under the SCHADS award. That's the summary.

PN257

So assume it's the higher end and 40 per cent, it would be somewhere in the realm of 180 employees?‑‑‑Correct.

*** SUSAN CUDMORE XXN MR ROBSON

PN258

What are the classifications of those employees covered by the SCHADS award?‑‑‑The support worker classification 1 to 4, I can't remember exactly the names of them - having a mental blank, but it's the support worker classifications 1 to 4.

PN259

Are they covered by the equal remuneration order?‑‑‑Of course.

PN260

Thank you. What proportion of those employees would be full‑time?‑‑‑They're predominantly casual employees. Is that the question?

PN261

Do you know the percentage or ‑ ‑ ‑ ?‑‑‑I would say we have very few permanent employees. We do offer them that opportunity, but the majority of them - I would say it would be around the vicinity of 95 per cent would be casual employees.

PN262

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Cudmore, when you say you offer them the opportunity, what actually do you offer them?‑‑‑With the casual - had a busy day. We offer them the opportunity to become a permanent employee, should they wish to.

PN263

Do they work on a fixed roster which would allow that to happen?‑‑‑They are engaged per shift. Some of them have a rhythm around their roster, but they - that would allow that to be achieved. Some of them (indistinct) some of them (indistinct) sessional work. They might be working (indistinct) shifts a week, or they might have (indistinct) some of them would have longer term (indistinct).

PN264

Thank you?‑‑‑We service about 1000 clients, if that helps you understand.

PN265

MR ROBSON: Ms Cudmore, does Community Alliance operate any specialist disability accommodation services?‑‑‑No.

PN266

Does Alliance Community provide services to NDIS participants who have a behaviour support plan registered with the NDIS quality and safeguards Commission?‑‑‑Yes, we do.

PN267

(Indistinct) how many of those you would have?‑‑‑I know that the majority of our work is NDIS funded. So about 80 per cent of our work is funded by the NDIS. The number that have a behaviour - specifically a behaviour support plan, is that what you're asking me?

*** SUSAN CUDMORE XXN MR ROBSON

PN268

Yes indeed?‑‑‑Yes. So I think we have a weekly meeting around that. Off the top of my head it's about six to eight participants have a behaviour support plan that's registered with NDIS.

PN269

So you don't provide specialist disability accommodation?‑‑‑No.

PN270

How many of your clients live in their own home?‑‑‑The majority. 95 to 96 per cent. If they're not in their own home, but we do provide some (indistinct) into supporting people who live in a group home, but we're not a group home provider.

PN271

Of course. And with your clients who live in their own home, how many of them live with a family member?‑‑‑A majority. We do identify - the majority live with a family member or - I don't have the exact statistics, but I know when we - with the advent of Covid we rang every client to identify who was vulnerable at risk, and one of the categories was whether they lived by themselves. So I would probably say - top of my head I haven't got that statistic. I would say 80 per cent live with (indistinct).

PN272

Of that proportion who live with a family member, are any of them living with an ageing relative?‑‑‑I'm sure they are.

PN273

But that's not data that you've collected?‑‑‑No, not particularly. Not that I've aggregated. Every participant or client of Alliance has a risk assessment on entry into the organisation, and one of the components of the risk assessment is asking who they live with, and looking at some of the dynamics of their family environment or their social environment, including their health and welfare status. But I don't have the aggregate data to share with you now.

PN274

Do any of your clients have complex behavioural issues, cognitive or intellectual disabilities?‑‑‑Quite a lot, yes.

PN275

Do any of your clients have physical disabilities or mobility issues?‑‑‑Yes, quite a lot. We - predominantly our community division specialises in the higher complex care cohort of clients, and that's because we have a nursing-centric background who have capability to work with that group of clients.

PN276

Okay?‑‑‑Plus we provide to Icare, and Icare have those comprehensively insured complex case clients as well.

*** SUSAN CUDMORE XXN MR ROBSON

PN277

And so you said that you have a nursing-centric background. How does that set you apart from other disability services?‑‑‑I think we have a clinical governance framework which I believe is very robust. Across the organisation we have a clinical governance committee of eight nursing professionals. We look at policies and procedures, we draft policies and procedures. I head that up. So I think that helps us. We're quite attuned to risk assessment and managing risk and interpreting health data and health information, and putting it into practice.

PN278

Thank you. Going back to the question I asked you about clients with cognitive or intellectual disabilities. You also have clients with physical disabilities or mobility issues. Can you explain the differences between these types of disability, how they may impact on a client's ability to deal with Covid procedures for hygiene and cleaning?‑‑‑I think everybody - our approach is that everybody is an individual. Based on that approach, we risk assess and support the client to meet their care needs, especially during Covid. So we will tailor and work with the client and their family to put in the appropriate protocols that we need to do to deal with Covid. Some of the strategies that we've employed, especially at the beginning of the outbreak of Covid, was to reduce all non-essential report so that the risk of exposure for the client and for us was reduced. We also ramped up a lot of the PPE practice. And we ensure on every visit we bring every - make contact with every client to ask them a series of questions in relation to: have they been unwell; have they been exposed; a whole range of things. You would have seen through the documentation there are quite a few policies and procedures that we developed in response to that. And quite a specific response plan that sort of outlines some of the - the majority of the strategies that we employ, and we look at that regularly.

PN279

What challenges are there in implementing these procedures when a client lives with other people?‑‑‑(Indistinct) when they live with - it depends on the situation, doesn't it? It depends if the family is - the people they live with are understanding of some of the requirements. We do try and ensure that where possible, that there are no visitors, extraneous visitors to the time of service that we deliver with the client. That's our job, to work with the clients individually and to look at their different challenges related to their intellectual risk or disability, and how that may impact meeting some wider public health strategies around Covid prevention.

*** SUSAN CUDMORE XXN MR ROBSON

PN280

Whose job is it in the organisation to speak to those families and educate them about those policies that you've raised?‑‑‑As I've referenced before, we have a clinical governance committee and we have nursing clinicians in the businesses, senior clinical leads. They take that clinical coordination to work with the families, supported by the care workers and our managers, to facilitate that. We have a whole lot of information on our web site, we've done some videos, we've sent out information. So we try our best to reiterate that consistently. We meet weekly. I just (indistinct) of the meeting, actually. We meet weekly with the Covid - it's my Covid response meeting with all the branch managers and the clinicians. We meet weekly, we did that this morning, talk about changes in the landscape and what we need to do to maintain our compliance and safe practice.

PN281

That role of that nursing clinician, does that set you apart from other disability services?‑‑‑I think it does. That's my view.

PN282

Thank you. No further questions, your Honour.

PN283

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination, Mr Cahill?

PN284

MR CAHILL: No, Vice President.

PN285

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Thank you. Thank you for your evidence, Ms Cudmore. You're excused, that means you can simply disconnect?‑‑‑Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.17 PM]

PN286

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that all the witnesses we have before 2 pm?

PN287

MR ROBSON: Yes, your Honour.

PN288

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. What I can do is mark the statements of those witnesses that aren't required for cross‑examination, Mr Robson. Do you want to go through those?

PN289

MR ROBSON: Yes. So from the ASU we have two witness statements. We have a witness statement of Ms Romola Hollywood, that comes to 21 pages with two attachments.

PN290

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The statement of Romola Hollywood dated 20 May 2020 will be marked exhibit 4.

EXHIBIT #4 STATEMENT OF ROMOLA HOLLYWOOD DATED 20/05/2020

PN291

MR ROBSON: And then we also - the remaining statements are from the HSU. I can take them to you, but I might get my friend Ms Liebhaber the opportunity to tender them.

*** SUSAN CUDMORE XXN MR ROBSON

PN292

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Ms Liebhaber.

PN293

MS LIEBHABER: Yes, your Honour. We have the statement of Mark Farthing dated 20 May 2020. We seek to tender that.

PN294

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, all right. The statement of Mark Farthing dated 20 May 2020 will be marked exhibit 5.

EXHIBIT #5 STATEMENT OF MARK FARTHING DATED 20/05/2020

PN295

MS LIEBHABER: And the statement of Giovanna Fatah dated 19 May 2020. We seek to tender that statement.

PN296

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The statement of Giovanna Fatah dated 19 May 2020 will be marked exhibit 6.

EXHIBIT #6 WITNESS STATEMENT OF GIOVANNA FATAH

PN297

MS LIEBHABER: In addition, Vice President, last night I emailed to the associate a bundle of documents. Those were documents produced by Life Without Barriers under orders for production, and they're in relation to the organisation's policies around Covid-19 and personal protective equipment. We also would seek to file that bundle of documents.

PN298

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. I will just refer to that as the HSU bundle of documents. Is there any objection to that tender?

PN299

MR WARREN: Just for identification purposes, your Honour, is that commencing with an email dated 30 June?

PN300

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Can you check that, Ms Liebhaber?

PN301

MR WARREN: From Ms Liebhaber to your chambers.

PN302

MS LIEBHABER: Yes, Mr Warren. Yes, those attachments sent in that email of yesterday evening.

PN303

MR WARREN: Thank you.

PN304

MR ARNDT: Vice President, there's no objection to the tender of that material. We have also tendered material overnight or sent through material overnight in relation to Ms Fatah's employment, and we would seek to tender that. It's from the same organisation, they're just different documents.

PN305

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, all right. We will come to that. The HSU bundle of documents will be marked exhibit 7.

EXHIBIT #7 HSU BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS

PN306

Is there any more union evidence at this stage? Statement of Dave Moody, is that one?

PN307

MR ROBSON: We're not seeking to tender that statement, sir.

PN308

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: As it were, we can ignore that, can we?

PN309

MR ROBSON: Yes. That was filed by National Disability Services. They may have something to say about it.

PN310

MR WARREN: Your Honour, we don't seek to tender that.

PN311

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Apart from the remaining witness required for cross‑examination, is that all the union evidence?

PN312

MR ROBSON: Indeed, sir. All from me.

PN313

MS LIEBHABER: Yes, Vice President.

PN314

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: And Mr Bull? Mr Bull? No, he's off again.

PN315

MR BULL: Mute. Sorry, sir. No, we're not leading any evidence.

PN316

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Thank you. On the employer's side can we tender - there were some tenders of witness statements and documents were there not, required for cross‑examination. So Mr Arndt?

PN317

MR ARNDT: In terms of our witnesses, we only have Ms Cudmore, so she's already in. in terms of tenders, the only remaining tenders would be put to the witnesses. So if I may, I may see how the cross‑examination of Mr Hyland goes and what we actually get to as to what is tendered in relation to his evidence.

PN318

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, of course. Do you want to tender the bundle relating to Ms Fatah?

PN319

MR ARNDT: Yes. Apologies, your Honour. Thank you for that cue. The documents relating to Ms Fatah that were forwarded to chambers overnight at 7.48 pm ‑ ‑ ‑

PN320

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What's the employer again?

PN321

MR ARNDT: Life Without Barriers.

PN322

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Life Without Barriers. All right. The ABI bundle of documents produced re Life Without Barriers will be marked exhibit 8.

EXHIBIT #8 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS RE GIOVANNA FATAH, LIFE WITHOUT BARRIERS

PN323

Mr Warren, is there anything we can tender on your part at this stage?

PN324

MR WARREN: No, nothing, thank you.

PN325

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: And Ms Bhatt?

PN326

MS BHATT: No, thank you, Vice President.

PN327

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. If that's all we can deal with now, we will adjourn and resume at 2 pm.

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.23 PM]

RESUMED [2.01 PM]

PN328

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Hyland is the next witness. Who's calling Mr Hyland?

PN329

MR ROBSON: I am, your Honour.

PN330

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Let's get Mr Hyland in, please.

PN331

THE ASSOCIATE: Would you be able to state your full name and address, please.

PN332

MR HYLAND: Sure. My name is Andrew Hyland of (address supplied).

<ANDREW HYLAND, AFFIRMED [2.02 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR ROBSON [2.02 PM]

PN333

MR ROBSON: Mr Hyland, my name is Michael Robson. I'm an industrial officer from the Australian Services Union. Can you hear me properly?‑‑‑I can.

PN334

Thank you. Mr Hyland, you've made a witness statement for these (indistinct).

PN335

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: You just got cut off there, Mr Robson. Can you ask that again, please.

PN336

MR ROBSON: Apologies, your Honour.

PN337

Mr Hyland, have you made a witness statement in these proceedings?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN338

Excellent. Do you have that in front of you?‑‑‑I do.

PN339

Does it run to nine pages with two attachments, and that's 80 pages total?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN340

And it's dated 19 May 2020?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN341

There are two corrections we need to make to that statement. At paragraph 23 the first sentence reads, "Most of our customers live in group homes." It's correct to say that many of your customers live in group homes?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** ANDREW HYLAND XN MR ROBSON

PN342

And then further, at paragraph 34, the second sentence reads, "Our annual turnover for 2019 was $149,364 thousand." That should read "$149,364 million". Is that correct?‑‑‑149 million.

PN343

Yes. And with those two corrections, is your statement true and correct?‑‑‑It is.

PN344

Thank you. No further questions, your Honour. I tender that statement.

PN345

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The statement of Andrew Hyland dated 19 May 2020 with the two identified corrections will be marked exhibit 9.

EXHIBIT #9 WITNESS STATEMENT OF ANDREW HYLAND DATED 19/05/2020, AS AMENDED

PN346

Mr Hyland? Is that you, Mr Arndt?

PN347

MR ARNDT: It is, your Honour.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ARNDT [2.04 PM]

PN348

MR ARNDT: Mr Hyland, can you see me?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN349

My name is Julian Arndt. I am a representative of some employers in this case, and I have some questions for you. Can I just say at the outset if there's a question that goes beyond the extent of your knowledge, just tell me so and I will move on. You're an accountant by training?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN350

And you're the CEO of (indistinct)?‑‑‑ ‑ ‑ ‑ I am.

PN351

How long have you been at that organisation for?‑‑‑Three and a half years. A little over.

PN352

Before that you were a consultant, and before that you were a manager in insurance, weren't you?‑‑‑I was at QBE for eight years, and then a consultant before that.

PN353

It's fair to say that you don't have any scientific, clinical or medical qualifications?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** ANDREW HYLAND XXN MR ARNDT

PN354

And it's fair to say that your expertise is in business and accounting and leadership, I suppose?‑‑‑Correct, yes.

PN355

Have you worked in disability services before your current job as CEO?‑‑‑No.

PN356

Can I take you to 12 of your statement, if that's all right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN357

You say you employed 1515 people in disability services. And at 14 of your statement you say that:

PN358

Disability service employee provide personal care, domestic assistance, or home maintenance to a person in the community that are in a private residential setting.

PN359

You then have a long list of roles at 14. My question is not all of these roles provide personal care, domestic assistance, or home maintenance for a person in the community or private residential setting, do they?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN360

It's correct that they all do, or that some of them don't?‑‑‑No, some of them don't.

PN361

You're aware of the scope of this claim, aren't you?‑‑‑Yes, I am.

PN362

And it applies to employees who would actually be in personal contact with a client or customer?‑‑‑Yes, probably. Yes, what we would term frontline workers or support workers.

PN363

How many of those in the 1515 people that you state at 12 of your statement, how many of those are frontline workers?‑‑‑Most of those people would be frontline workers. More than 80 per cent, I would say.

PN364

Thank you. Without wanting (indistinct) excuse me, I withdraw that. In your evidence that you - there was a correction to your evidence that you just did with Mr Robson. I believe it was said that it's not most of the customers in your care are in group homes, it's just many?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** ANDREW HYLAND XXN MR ARNDT

PN365

What percentage would - can you give an estimate as to that percentage?‑‑‑Yes. We would have about 500 people in group homes out of about 1500 in total. But the people in the group homes would require - they require 24/7 support, so they constitute the largest portion of our service, but not the largest number of people.

PN366

Understood. In terms of the list that you provide at 14, are there particular roles in that list that constitute the frontline workers, so to speak; or are you able to identify which roles are the frontline workers in that list?‑‑‑(No audible reply)

PN367

Perhaps I will approach it another way, Mr Hyland, in order not to waste ‑ ‑ ‑ ?‑‑‑So I think I heard the question. You broke up a little bit ‑ ‑ ‑

PN368

I'm going to approach the question another way, Mr Hyland. Did you hear that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN369

For the frontline disability ‑ ‑ ‑ ?‑‑‑Yes, I did.

PN370

Thank you, Mr Hyland. For the frontline disability service employees who are providing personal care, domestic assistance, and home maintenance, can you describe what types of tasks these employees are required to do?‑‑‑So I was not able to hear any of that. That was broken up.

PN371

I will have another go. Can you describe the types of tasks that your frontline disability services employees are required to do when they provide personal care, domestic assistance to a customer?‑‑‑Yes, okay. They provide a range of activities, from getting people out of bed in the morning, getting them dressed, showering them; helping them prepare breakfast, lunch; taking them to the shops; effectively like an extended family member who provides support for their everyday needs.

PN372

Mr Hyland, depending on the level of their needs, they might be required to help them dress?‑‑‑Correct.

PN373

Clean their teeth and wash?‑‑‑Correct, yes.

PN374

Clean their residence?‑‑‑Yes.

PN375

It would also be the case that those frontline workers have to engage in personal contact with the customer in terms of at a social level: speaking to them?‑‑‑Correct. They would spend most of their time directly supporting the individual with the disability, much like a family member would, if I can use that example.

*** ANDREW HYLAND XXN MR ARNDT

PN376

And engaging with them socially. So they're asking them questions, answering their questions?‑‑‑Correct.

PN377

In terms of the health needs of a customer, could you give a description of the types of support your employees - the frontline employees - provide to clients in terms of health needs. Do they give medication?‑‑‑They do give medication, yes. That's on the instructions from a prescribing GP.

PN378

And when they're sick they monitor their symptoms?‑‑‑They do.

PN379

They provide care to customers when they're sick?‑‑‑They would not provide healthcare, as such, but they would provide, I guess, comfort and support. They would facilitate taking that individual to the GP for an examination if the symptoms suggested that they should go to the GP; or in more severe cases they may go to the hospital, depending on how the support worker is reading those symptoms.

PN380

In relation to the serious case, if a customer was sick, the frontline employee would be calling the ambulance or the doctor?‑‑‑If the customer was sick they would take them to the doctor or ring the doctor, depending on the mobility of the customer ‑ ‑ ‑

PN381

And potentially call ‑ ‑ ‑ ?‑‑‑ - - - sometimes the doctor would come and pay a visit to the house.

PN382

And potentially call an ambulance ‑ ‑ ‑ ?‑‑‑Potentially call an ambulance, yes.

PN383

Thank you, Mr Hyland. When you ‑ ‑ ‑ ?‑‑‑Correct.

PN384

When you give evidence about the work that these people perform, are you relying on your observations of watching these people perform work?‑‑‑Sorry, I didn't hear that question clearly.

PN385

When you've been answering my questions about what work people perform in the frontline role, are you relying on your observations of watching these people perform work?‑‑‑Have I any observations personally?

PN386

Answer that question, if you would like. Yes, please?‑‑‑Is that the question?

*** ANDREW HYLAND XXN MR ARNDT

PN387

Yes, please?‑‑‑Yes. So I visit the residences, you know, throughout the course of the year probably, you know, 20 to 30 times a year I would - you know, once every two weeks I would go and visit a series of residence to meet with the staff and to meet with the people that we support, the customers. I observe them in their everyday activities. I can't say that I have had any specific examples of observing the support workers in action when somebody was sick. I don't think I've actually seen a case of that.

PN388

Have you been continuing your visits to residences during the Covid period?‑‑‑Yes, I did. I did not in the early stages of Covid, but I started to visit residence about six weeks ago.

PN389

Your visitation frequency is now back to normal?‑‑‑It is now back to normal, yes - except for interstate, which of course I can't do because of the restrictions.

PN390

What proportion of your employees are interstate?‑‑‑About 50 per cent, 30 to 50 per cent would be outside of New South Wales.

PN391

Mr Hyland, when I read your statement, particularly the end of it, it's fair to say that you have a view that you wish to improve the conditions of those who work in the disability sector?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN392

Can I take you to 29 of your statement? I'll give you a moment to get there?‑‑‑Yes.

PN393

And over the page - you say that: "We owe them urgent policy change to ensure they earn federally-mandated hazard pay." Is it the case that you think employees working in the disability sector should be paid for the risk that they're running by working in the sector at this time?‑‑‑Let me just consider that question for a moment. I think they should be compensated for any specific risks that they have to take, that they knowingly enter into, so I don't think it's a general thing but if we know that somebody is carrying a virus that is potentially life-threatening and there is no vaccine, then I think that places a significant psychological burden on the individual and they should be compensated for that.

PN394

I wanted to ask some questions about safety. You're aware of the obligations under the Work Health and Safety Act to ensure the safety of your workers?‑‑‑I am.

PN395

You have personal obligations under that Act as well, don't you?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** ANDREW HYLAND XXN MR ARNDT

PN396

It's correct that your organisation implements policies to help you meet those obligations?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN397

Can you explain for me what quality standards in terms of providing care to customers, how that is regulated?‑‑‑Sure - there are different standards but the - there are national standards for disability. Typically we are audited by external organisations independently to make sure that we comply with those standards of care. We also of course operate under Work Health and Safety legislation and we get audited from time to time more generally and for specific issues. We also have implemented international global quality standards through (indistinct) housing so we have a whole range of different quality standards that we adhere to and there are different regulatory bodies such as the national safeguarding commission that we must report to, which is really to protect the vulnerable individuals under our care.

PN398

You would say that for the most part your organisation met those standards?‑‑‑I would say that, yes.

PN399

I mentioned policies before: I assume that you have regard to those standards in the creation and implementation of the relevant policies that apply?‑‑‑Yes, so we have a policy management framework and we have a risk management framework and we review legislation and then draft our policies in accordance with that legislation and then communicate those policies to our staff in different ways, both through intranet and paper-based and through training and education.

PN400

Mr Hyland, your organisation in these proceedings provided to the Commission a number of documents subject to a notice to produce. I consolidated a pack of those documents. It goes to 32 pages. The file is called, "Documents for Mr Hyland." Do you have that file with you?‑‑‑I do, yes; I have it here.

PN401

I want to ask you some questions about that and if you can go to page 1?‑‑‑Yes.

PN402

Have you seen that page or that document before?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN403

You've read it?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

*** ANDREW HYLAND XXN MR ARNDT

PN404

Do you know how that document was developed? Was it developed in your time in the organisation?‑‑‑That document would have been developed in my time. It would have been developed by work health and safety specialist team members that work as part of the national safeguarding team and they would have been the primary producer of that document.

PN405

That's the document that would - that was the relevant policy of your organisation or was a relevant policy of your organisation prior to the pandemic?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN406

I want to take you through some of these documents and as I said before, if there is anything that you don't wish to answer because you don't know, just say so. Can I take you to 3, "Common modes of transmission", on that first page?‑‑‑Yes.

PN407

I'll let you read that. Do you accept that those are the transmission methods of Covid or that they can be transmission methods of Covid?‑‑‑I would - based on my layman's knowledge - I would think that's - they are typical ways that Covid could be transmitted, yes.

PN408

Can I take you across the page to fact sheet one?‑‑‑Yes.

PN409

Now, again, I assume you've seen this document?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN410

Do you accept that prior to Covid, the emergence of Covid, your organisation required managers and facilitators to do the things listed at fact sheet one?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN411

I don't want to take you through everything, Mr Hyland, but you'd accept then that at point 1 or the dot point 1 of that fact sheet one, managers and facilitators are required by - were required - by that policy to implement workplace and control measures to prevent the spread of infectious diseases?‑‑‑Yes.

PN412

If I take you to point 7, you'd accept that managers and facilitators had a responsibility before Covid to contain the spread of infectious diseases within the workplace and if necessary the community, particularly if a customer or visitor is known to be carrying an infectious disease?‑‑‑Yes.

PN413

I'll take you over the page. I might just ask a general question which might save us some time: am I to assume that if you have seen the other fact sheets that you've also seen and are aware of fact sheet - if you've seen fact sheet one you've also seen fact sheet two, three and following?‑‑‑I've read the entire document, yes.

PN414

The entire document applied to your employees and your organisation prior to Covid?‑‑‑Yes, it did.

*** ANDREW HYLAND XXN MR ARNDT

PN415

Based on fact sheet two, you accept that your employees before Covid may have been required to wear gloves in respect of dealing with customers with contagious disease?‑‑‑Yes, I think the use of gloves typically was related to circumstances around bodily fluid, particularly - yes, I do accept that.

PN416

Do you accept that before the pandemic, employees working in contact with a customer who had a contagious disease were required to wash and dry hands immediately after the removal and disposal of gloves?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN417

You've just accepted that when dealing with any bodily substance they were required to wear gloves?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN418

I assume that would apply to any bodily substance, whether it was someone with an infectious disease or not, wouldn't it?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN419

If I take you to point 6, do you accept that before the pandemic employees working in contact with a customer who had a contagious disease may have been required to wear an apron?‑‑‑Yes.

PN420

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, Mr Arndt - where are we now?

PN421

MR ARNDT: Fact sheet two.

PN422

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Fact sheet two, thank you.

PN423

MR ARNDT: What about practice hand hygiene? That would have been a component prior to the pandemic, Mr Hyland?‑‑‑Yes, it was and it is, yes.

PN424

I'll take you over to fact sheet three?‑‑‑Yes.

PN425

I understand that you've accepted that you've seen this document and that it applied to your employees prior to Covid. You accept that your organisation required employees to undertake what is described in this document as universal body substance precautions?‑‑‑Universal body - sorry, I can't see that on the - - -

PN426

It's in the heading?‑‑‑Of course, in the heading; yes, yes.

*** ANDREW HYLAND XXN MR ARNDT

PN427

The things that it lists there, that's what your employees were required to do?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN428

Again, I won't take you through all of it but I'll take you to dot point 4: you'd accept that it may require employees using personal protective equipment based on anticipated risk?‑‑‑Yes.

PN429

It would also include disposing of single use contaminated products in a manner that complies with local health regulations? That's dot point 6?‑‑‑Yes.

PN430

Dot point 7 would require an employee to sort and wash contaminated linen separately?‑‑‑Yes.

PN431

It would require employees to practice effective environment cleaning as outlined in the policy?‑‑‑Yes.

PN432

The last point, which is a general one and sensible one, it would require employees to minimise risk by taking measures to reduce those risks?‑‑‑Correct.

PN433

Can I take you to fact sheet five - so we're skipping fact sheet four so you'll have to jump to - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN434

Again, you would accept that prior to Covid employees were required to apply this policy?‑‑‑Yes.

PN435

You'd accept that prior to Covid, your organisation required employees to treat all blood, saliva, and bodily fluids as infected?‑‑‑Yes.

PN436

To use good hand hygiene?‑‑‑Yes.

PN437

Can I take you to fact sheet six, which is labelled, "Hand Hygiene?" It's on page 10 of 32?‑‑‑Yes.

PN438

Tell me when you're there?‑‑‑Yes, page 10.

PN439

You'd accept that prior to Covid, employees were required to apply this policy?‑‑‑Yes.

*** ANDREW HYLAND XXN MR ARNDT

PN440

It's the case that employees have always been required to exercise the hand hygiene protocols outlined in this document, haven't they?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN441

Can I take you to fact sheet eight, page 13 of the document?‑‑‑Yes.

PN442

This is the relevant policy which applied to your organisation prior to Covid?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN443

If I take you to dot point 3, you accept that your organisation required employees to wear gloves during the care of customers who had an infection spread by contact?‑‑‑Yes.

PN444

I believe you have already accepted that the organisation required the removal and changing of gloves when commencing a new activity?‑‑‑Yes.

PN445

That would apply to any form of PPE, right, if it were infected or had had contact with a potentially infected material it would need to be removed and either disposed of or cleaned?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN446

Can I ask you to jump to page 15 of the PDF? It's titled, "Face masks"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN447

Do you accept that prior to Covid your organisation required employees to wear face masks where there was a risk of droplets or aerosols?‑‑‑Yes.

PN448

If we go to the third sentence, you accept then that your organisation required employees to wear masks during the care of a customer how had an infection that is spread by droplet or airborne route?‑‑‑Yes.

PN449

We've seen, "Types of masks", which is in the middle of the page. The second dot point says other types of masks may be required. You accept that the type of mask which this policy required an employee to wear would depend on the risk?‑‑‑Yes, I would say that, yes.

PN450

Can I get you to the bottom of the page in relation to gowns? Do you accept that your organisation required employees to wear gowns or aprons in dealing with a customer who may have an infection spread by contact?‑‑‑Yes.

PN451

If we go over the page, you see heading, "Protective eye wear"?‑‑‑Yes.

*** ANDREW HYLAND XXN MR ARNDT

PN452

You accept that prior to Covid your organisation required employees to wear protective eye wear where care workers needed protection from exposure to infectious agents?‑‑‑Yes.

PN453

Specifically where there was a risk of droplet or aerosols?‑‑‑Correct.

PN454

Can I get you to jump now to fact sheet 11 on page 19?‑‑‑Yes.

PN455

This fact sheet is actually called, "Epidemics, pandemics and outbreaks." You accept that prior to Covid employees were required to apply this policy and abide by it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN456

It seems then that your organisation contemplated the prospect of a pandemic before Covid hit?‑‑‑Yes.

PN457

You'd accept that on the terms of the policy, this could apply to any contagious disease?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN458

In terms of the diseases that are mentioned, influenza is mentioned and so is SARS. Have there been any pandemics or outbreaks in your time as CEO?‑‑‑No, not in my time - in Australia, no.

PN459

Can we go over the page, it's the second page, page 20 of the PDF. Can I get you to read the first paragraph of page 20?‑‑‑"If the customer receiving support develops symptoms they are to stay home and away from other people while they are contagious. This will be determined by the treating doctor."

PN460

Thank you, Mr Hyland. That was helpful. You didn't need to read it out loud but thank you for that?‑‑‑I'm sorry.

PN461

That's all right. It's helpful, nonetheless. But I wanted to ask you a question about that once you've read it. You accept then that social isolation or quarantine would apply to any customer who was contagious with almost any disease, wouldn't it - contagious disease?‑‑‑Yes, I would. In our policy that was written before Covid recommended 48 hours as the standard period for isolation.

*** ANDREW HYLAND XXN MR ARNDT

PN462

Which policy was that?‑‑‑It is on infection control procedures, page 2 of 7. It's in the next section but it's infection control procedure, section five. It is dot point 4: "Individuals who are displaying any signs of infection - vomiting, diarrhoea, influenza or other illness as advised by the doctor as contagious - are not to attend community access programs until they have been symptom-free for a minimum of 48 hours."

PN463

Just to unpack that, that's under the heading, "Basic infection control strategies." If I can take you back to 20, page 20, where we were before, which is in the, "Epidemics, pandemics and outbreaks", section - the first dot point says they stay at home and away from other people while they are contagious. This will be determined by the treating doctor. It's the case, isn't it, that the period of isolation will be determined by the treating doctor, wouldn't it, in terms of a pandemic?‑‑‑That is correct, yes.

PN464

It's also the case, isn't it, that in terms of the 48 hours isolation period that you've just identified, I mean, that wouldn't apply - to pick a specific disease - that wouldn't apply to measles, would it?‑‑‑I think it probably could, yes; it's not specified in the document but I would think that it could but I don't know, I'm not a medical expert. But I would assume there would be some kind of isolation for something like that but again, specified by the GP.

PN465

You'll probably tell me that you don't know but are you aware of what the isolation period for SARS was?‑‑‑No, I don't know.

PN466

You're not aware that that was 48 hours?‑‑‑No, I'm not.

PN467

Can I put it to you that depending on the disease, would depend on whether that 48-hour isolation period would be applied or not?‑‑‑That would sound like a reasonable assumption.

PN468

You'd take doctors' advice on that?‑‑‑Correct.

PN469

Staying on page 20 in the second dot point, you accept that your organisation required employees prior to the pandemic that if a customer developed symptoms, that the employees would be required to report the illness to a hospital?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN470

In relation to the fourth dot point, you accept that your organisation required employees prior to the pandemic in circumstances where a customer developed symptoms employees would be required to minimise the number of individuals who care for the cust0omer, and to minimise contact with others? That's in the fourth dot point on page 20?‑‑‑Yes, I would agree with that.

*** ANDREW HYLAND XXN MR ARNDT

PN471

In all cases, your employees who are responsible for customers have always been responsible for seeking emergency care for any customer who is in trouble and needs it?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN472

Can we jump ahead to 23? Thank you, Mr Hyland, for your patience: "Infection control procedures"?‑‑‑23? Okay, I've got it - I think a different page number but it's infection control procedures, yes. On the bottom of my document it says page 1 of 7. Are we looking at the same one?

PN473

No, we're on the same - we're literally on the same page. When I say 23 I mean page 23 of the PDF but we're in the right place?‑‑‑Okay.

PN474

"Infection control procedures", and at the bottom of the page, page 1 of 7?‑‑‑Yes.

PN475

I think we probably have jumped documents so maybe I might just ask you: you accept this is a document that you've seen before and that applied prior to Covid?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN476

Can I take you to page 4 of 7, if you're looking on the bottom of the document?‑‑‑Yes.

PN477

The final sentence on that page - you accept, don't you, that prior to the pandemic in the event of an outbreak employees were required to keep customers and their families informed about the outbreak and to explain what was happening and what was being done to manage it?‑‑‑Correct.

PN478

Mr Hyland, we have spent some time now taking - I've taken you and perhaps you've taken me through the requirements that existed prior to Covid in respect of PPE, in respect of cleaning, in respect of isolation, in respect of keeping families and customers informed. Having regard to that evidence, I just want to put it to you that the policies and requirements that existed before the pandemic in relation to infection control require the same things from your employees as what is required from them now. Is that correct?‑‑‑I think that statement is oversimplified. I think there are significant differences in the application of these protocols in the post-pandemic environment. Whilst is correct to say that the policies and procedures are the same, I think the application of them has been entirely different in the post-pandemic world and we went to great lengths to document highly targeted and specific protocols that did not exist before the Covid-19 outbreak. So it's a true statement but I think it's slightly simplified.

PN479

One moment, sir. I'll take you to 19 of your statement?‑‑‑19 of the statement - - -

*** ANDREW HYLAND XXN MR ARNDT

PN480

The statement, yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN481

You talk about normal infection control procedures. Are those normal infection control procedures the things that I just took you through?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN482

You did accept, though, in an earlier question that someone with a contagious disease would need to be isolated, though; that's correct, isn't it?‑‑‑That is correct, yes.

PN483

They would need to be kept separated, wouldn't they?‑‑‑They would.

PN484

What is the difference?‑‑‑I think the fundamental difference in this scenario is that there is no vaccine for Covid-19. I think that's the fundamental difference and the people - the individuals who are going into perform the infection control procedures to work with the people that we support are walking into a situation knowingly if they contract the infection themselves that they're in a very difficult position. So I think that's fundamentally the difference. Because there is no vaccine available the control procedures in Covid-19 are far more stringent. For example, if a person contracts Covid-19 our staff member is required to wear PPE all of the time so they would be on an eight-hour shift with an individual, they have to wear the full PPE for all of those eight hours, not just when they are dealing with bodily fluids, for example. So that would be the context to support what I'm saying.

PN485

Mr Hyland, perhaps I wasn't clear. I'll just ask the question again: my question is what's the difference in terms of the social distancing and self-isolation? You had given some evidence with measles and influenza or contagious disease, you would need to be kept separated under the policy, or a customer would need to be kept separated under the pre-Covid policy that we spoke about. What is the difference in terms of distancing and quarantine? Is there a difference?‑‑‑I would think there is a difference. Currently if you're at risk of Covid-19 you're asked to isolate for 14 days in a whole range of different scenarios so that's quite a - that's a public health order. That's not a lifestyle solutions procedure. 14 days is a long time. It's not 28 hours, it's not two days, it's not one day. It's a long time.

PN486

You'd accept, though - sorry, Mr Hyland, you finish?‑‑‑Yes, I'm finished.

PN487

You accepted though that the 48-hour limit wasn't an absolute limit and it would absolutely depend on the particular contagious disease?‑‑‑I would accept that, yes.

*** ANDREW HYLAND XXN MR ARNDT

PN488

Isolation means isolation, doesn't it? It means separation from other residents?‑‑‑Well, I think again the public health order from the Department of Health has laid out very, very specific protocols that we have to follow, which would be different in individual circumstances so in this case, every and each time it happens it's 14 days. That may change over time, but that's what we were dealing with for the past two months if there was a suspected case.

PN489

So the difference is in the length of the isolation as opposed to what the isolation actually is?‑‑‑Yes, I would say that's the significant difference, yes.

PN490

Let's return to your statement. Can I take you to paragraph 29?‑‑‑Yes.

PN491

Your organisation has created a Covid-19 care allowance. What I have tried to do in the PDF that you've been provided, "Documents for Mr Hyland", is attach what I understand to be the two relevant documents for you, they being at page 30 of the PDF and there's three pages there, 30, 31 and 32. Have you got that?‑‑‑Yes, I'm just getting to that page. Yes, so page 30 of the PDF?

PN492

That's right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN493

Those are the documents that are relevant to the Covid-19 care allowance?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN494

Were you involved in the creation of these policies?‑‑‑Yes, I was.

PN495

The two documents which are there, one is a Policy Update Covid-19 Care Allowance - that's at page 30 - and then, at page 32, is the Management Application Guideline, Covid-19 Care Allowance. Can you tell me what the difference between these two policies or these two documents is? They relate to the same entitlement, but what's the difference?‑‑‑One really is a policy and one is a procedure. They seem to have used different language to what we normally use, but the policy states the benefit and the procedure states the process that you have to go through to access that.

PN496

Can I ask about the benefit. Does the policy pay the employee an allowance or an eligible employee the allowance where they have a customer who is suspected of having Covid and is awaiting a test?‑‑‑If they are suspected and awaiting a test, I would have to confirm that, but I believe they are paid. If they're just - the policy has a hard application to people who are confirmed with Covid. I'll withdraw that actually, I think that's incorrect. I think they are only paid the allowance when the Covid-19 has been confirmed.

*** ANDREW HYLAND XXN MR ARNDT

PN497

What happens if a test came back negative?‑‑‑They would resume normal operation.

PN498

What's the quantum of the allowance?‑‑‑It's $4.94, I think per hour.

PN499

There may be a simple answer to this question: how did Lifestyle Solutions come up with that quantum?‑‑‑I think it was in consultation with the Australian Services Union.

PN500

Did you or, as far as you know, anyone at the organisation have any thought as to why that number was picked?‑‑‑Again, I believe it was on the advice of the Australian Services Union.

PN501

Would the same answer apply to the fact that on each page of this policy at the bottom, it says, "Temporary policy, expiry 28 September 2020"? Was that date picked for a particular reason or was it on the advice of the union?‑‑‑No, that would've been on an assumption that we may have to run through this pandemic until that time and it would give us a logical time to check in to assess the state of play at that point.

PN502

Just give me one moment, Mr Hyland. I appreciate you answering my questions, Mr Hyland, I have no further questions, thank you?‑‑‑Thank you.

PN503

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any other cross-examination? Any re-examination, Mr Robson?

PN504

MR ROBSON: Yes, your Honour.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ROBSON [2.50 PM]

PN505

Mr Hyland, just while it's fresh in your mind, looking at the policy, the Covid-19 Care Allowance, this allowance applies to disability, child and family support services team members at your organisation?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN506

Are you aware that the ASU, the union application, the allowance was only paid to disability services?‑‑‑I am.

PN507

I might just take you down to the second page of the policy, or actually starting at the first page. If you see - - -

*** ANDREW HYLAND RXN MR ROBSON

PN508

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What page of the PDF is this, Mr Robson?

PN509

MR ROBSON: Sorry, page 30 of the PDF.

PN510

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN511

MR ROBSON: At dot point 3 in the middle of the page, 3(a), at the end there's an asterisk?‑‑‑Yes.

PN512

I will take you to the second page, that's 31 of the bundle. Down the bottom, there's an asterisk there. Can you read that?‑‑‑Yes. Out loud?

PN513

Yes, please?‑‑‑Yes:

PN514

We will review on a case by case basis instances of when the person we support is directed to self-isolate due to a suspected case of Covid-19 and awaiting testing.

PN515

Can you explain how this is applied in practice?‑‑‑Yes. So, if we - as I said earlier, the hard application of our policy is when there's a confirmed case, but if we feel - if we feel that the person is suffering undue anxiety or is dealing with a difficult customer, we may elect to pay that allowance at that time.

PN516

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I just want to interrupt here. Mr Hyland, it's Vice President Hatcher. I'm just trying to understand what is the difference in terms of responsibilities, risk and stress treating or dealing with a client who is awaiting a test and then it turns out to be positive as distinct from dealing with someone who's awaiting a test and it turns out to be negative? That is, up until the point you know - it's a bit like Schrodinger's Cat, I suppose, but up to the point where you know, would the experience be the same?‑‑‑No, not necessarily. It would depend on the individual person that we support. We support people predominantly with intellectual disability and there are different ranges on the spectrum of complexity, so we have some very, very complex people and we have some people that are much less complex and, you know, have a lot more independence. So, they have what's known in the sector as behaviours and we have behaviour management plans or behaviour support plans. Everybody's behaviour could be quite different, so one individual might be quite easy to work with and one might be extremely difficult and very anxious, and family members may be involved and this is a completely different level of, I guess, reactions.

*** ANDREW HYLAND RXN MR ROBSON

PN517

The reason we did not put in a hard policy for suspected cases was because that's a little bit grey and could go on and on ad nauseam where we need kind of hard evidence to say that they have got a case. The fundamental difference then is that if the person is confirmed with a case, and I put myself in that person's shoes and I have to go in and support a person with Covid-19, knowing that they have the infection, and then I go home to my wife and children at the end of the day, I'm worried about do I infect them, do I infect my parents, do I infect other members of the community, people could die. So that's the position I put myself, that's the difference really between I know that they're infected and they might be infected.

PN518

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Perhaps I didn't put my questions clearly enough. I understand what you're saying when you've got a client who you know is infected. I'm talking to the point where they are in isolation awaiting a test, that is, before the point the test result is known. Presumably the experience of the employee caring for that client would be the same whether the test ultimately turns out to be positive or negative?‑‑‑Look, again, it would depend on the behaviour of the clients. I couldn't say that it would be the same. It would very much depend on the behaviour of the client or customer.

PN519

Well, for any given client with any given disability and any given set of behaviours, that is, all other things being equal, I'm struggling to understand what would be the difference up to the point where the result of the test is known?‑‑‑Well, with the exception of the behaviours of the client, nothing else would be different.

PN520

Yes, thank you. Mr Robson?

PN521

MR ROBSON: Thank you, your Honour.

PN522

You were asked about fact sheet 11?‑‑‑Yes, I have it. You are on mute.

PN523

I clicked the button without knowing. Would it be normal for one of your employees to be trained in this policy prior to Covid-19?‑‑‑Sorry, could you repeat the question?

PN524

Would it be normal for an employee to be trained in this policy outside of a pandemic?‑‑‑In fact sheet 11 specifically?

*** ANDREW HYLAND RXN MR ROBSON

PN525

Yes?‑‑‑Well, all employees are trained in overall infection control procedures, which would include this, but there would not be a great emphasis on fact sheet 11 without an actual pandemic, I would say, but they would be trained in what's there as part of their normal training.

PN526

You were shown a number of infection control policies and procedures and then you were asked what the difference was during Covid-19 and you said that there were - you had to provide a number of new protocols updated to deal with the circumstances. What did they cover?‑‑‑Well, they covered a range of things, but the additional kind of information was far more prescriptive. So, when it comes to PPE, far more prescriptive instructions about when and when not to use PPE and to what level of PPE you needed to use, which is in addition to. The information in these fact sheets are quite specific instructions in relation to the pandemic. We had an additional requirement to identify high risk employees, which we did not do in the pre-Covid protocols, and that would be employees over the age of 60 and employees who are Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders because they are more susceptible to being infected, and we would not normally - we don't have a pre-Covid procedure to do that.

PN527

The isolation requirements we spoke about earlier, but that's again 14 days in isolation. One of the issues with that was that there was only nine days personal leave for workers, so if they had to isolate for 14 days, they'd have a gap, which Lifestyle agreed to cover. So they were some of the key things that were in addition to the pre-Covid protocols.

PN528

MR ROBSON: You were asked about isolation with infectious diseases prior to the pandemic. Were you required to - are there more circumstances during Covid-19 where a client is required to self-isolate than previously?‑‑‑Yes. Well, we had - as of last week, we had 35 people, 35 customers who had to self-isolate and we had about 75 staff who had to self-isolate. Those kind of numbers were never - I've never heard of anything like that pre-Covid being reported to me.

PN529

You would receive updates about the number of people who are required to isolate or where more stringent hygiene procedures are used?‑‑‑Yes.

PN530

What is the difference in your experience between before and now?‑‑‑Well, in the Covid world, we report every day on the moving numbers and they are reported back at the end of the week to the board, which we would never do that level of reporting in a normal case. You would report numbers at the end of a month and they would not be anywhere near the scale of that.

PN531

Yes. No further questions, your Honour.

PN532

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, thanks for your evidence, Mr Hyland, you are excused, which means you can simply disconnect from the conference?‑‑‑Thank you.

*** ANDREW HYLAND RXN MR ROBSON

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.00 PM]

PN533

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that all the witnesses we have today?

PN534

MR ROBSON: Yes, your Honour.

PN535

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Are we resuming with Mr Richardson at 10 o'clock tomorrow; is that correct?

PN536

MR ROBSON: Yes, that is correct.

PN537

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, we will adjourn now and resume at 10 am tomorrow.

PN538

MR WARREN: Can I just ask the question, is it the intention to go into oral submissions at the conclusion of the witnesses?

PN539

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN540

MR WARREN: Thank you.

PN541

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you.

ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY, 02 JULY 2020 [3.01 PM]

*** ANDREW HYLAND RXN MR ROBSON

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

ANGELA MARIE BROWN, AFFIRMED.......................................................... PN27

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR ROBSON................................................. PN27

EXHIBIT #1 STATEMENT OF ANGELA BROWN DATED 20/05/2020...... PN36

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARREN.................................................... PN53

EXHIBIT #2 AFEI BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS.............................................. PN72

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ROBSON............................................................ PN175

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN222

SUSAN CUDMORE, AFFIRMED..................................................................... PN227

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR CAHILL................................................ PN227

EXHIBIT #3 STATEMENT OF SUSAN CUDMORE DATED 20/05/2020.. PN235

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROBSON.................................................... PN237

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN285

EXHIBIT #4 STATEMENT OF ROMOLA HOLLYWOOD DATED 20/05/2020 PN290

EXHIBIT #5 STATEMENT OF MARK FARTHING DATED 20/05/2020.. PN294

EXHIBIT #6 WITNESS STATEMENT OF GIOVANNA FATAH............... PN296

EXHIBIT #7 HSU BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS.............................................. PN305

EXHIBIT #8 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS RE GIOVANNA FATAH, LIFE WITHOUT BARRIERS............................................................................................................ PN322

ANDREW HYLAND, AFFIRMED.................................................................... PN332

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR ROBSON............................................... PN332

EXHIBIT #9 WITNESS STATEMENT OF ANDREW HYLAND DATED 19/05/2020, AS AMENDED............................................................................................................ PN345

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ARNDT...................................................... PN347

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ROBSON............................................................ PN504

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN532