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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Fair Work Act 2009
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI
DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC
COMMISSIONER JOHNS
s.156 - 4 yearly review of modern awards
Four yearly review of modern awards
(AM2015/6)
Educational Services Award
Melbourne
10.08 AM, MONDAY, 29 AUGUST 2016
Continued from 29/07/2016
PN3338
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Thank you. Any change to appearances?
PN3339
MS PUGSLEY: Your Honour, Mr Andrews now appears with me for the AHEIA.
PN3340
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Thank you, Ms Pugsley. There are a couple of housekeeping matters. First of all, Friday, 22 October we'll actually be sitting only till 12.30 on that date. That does have an implication in relation to the number of witnesses to be called on that date, but obviously the witnesses process as the list progresses. Secondly, there has been correspondence in relation to Dr Dicks and Dr Nerkar. We're going to list that matter before Johns C to have an argument about those objections at 4 o'clock tomorrow afternoon. We note, Mr Pill, that one of the other problems, as you point out, is that if the timetable on those witnesses remains it will affect the rest of the timetable.
PN3341
MR PILL: Yes. Although I think they've now been slotted in on 21 October at this point.
PN3342
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes. They have been slotted on the 21st but they are likely to proceed under the current timetable on that date anyway. And, finally, Johns C will not be here tomorrow but the matter will still proceed and he'll have the benefit of the transcript. Thank you, Ms Gale.
PN3343
MS GALE: Thank you, your Honour. I just wanted to touch on two, I suppose, also housekeeping matters before we commence with the witnesses today.
PN3344
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes.
PN3345
MS GALE: First, in relation to the issue of NTEU survey material I wish to advise that NTEU has sought an expert report on that material which has now been filed. That report includes, as an attachment, a witness statement by an NTEU employee who coordinated the survey project, and the NTEU seeks leave to rely on that material.
PN3346
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Have you got a view on that Mr Pill or Ms Pugsley?
PN3347
MR PILL: It was emailed to us yesterday. There hadn't been any indication prior to that time that there was to be such a witness. Your Honour might recall that you raised the matter and asked for some indication.
PN3348
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes.
PN3349
MR PILL: I have had a quick look at it this morning. We would seek the opportunity before leave is granted to have a reasonable opportunity to have a look at it and to address you on it. I did clarify with my friend this morning that, whilst it's presented as one statement with an attachment, they are going to be seeking leave to call both the person, Associate Professor Hepworth and the other person is Michael Evans of the NTEU.
PN3350
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes. Ms Pugsley.
PN3351
MS PUGSLEY: We're of the same view, your Honour.
PN3352
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: All right. Well, how long do you think you'll need, Mr Pill, to advise what your view is in relation to that matter? And we've got plenty of time obviously so not today I gather.
PN3353
MR PILL: No. Sorry, your Honour, we can advise during the course of this week. Well, I'm not sure whether my friend was intending to call them. To the extent that we require them for cross-examination if they were permitted to appear we can indicate by Wednesday, your Honour, if that's convenient.
PN3354
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Is that suitable to you, Ms Pugsley?
PN3355
MS PUGSLEY: Yes, your Honour.
PN3356
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: All right. Yes, thank you, Ms Gale.
PN3357
MS GALE: Thank you, your Honour. And the second matter is that there were three literature reviews included in the original materials filed by the NTEU and they were included in the form of attachments to witness statements. They were expunged from those witness statements as a result of the objections processed, but during that process the NTEU indicated that we sought to rely on those literature reviews on the basis of submissions and just for completeness I seek to tender a copy of the literature reviews.
PN3358
There are three documents. The first is a literature review entitled Literature Review Academic Casuals. The second is entitled Literature Review Academic Working Hours Claim. And the third is entitled Literature Review General Staff Working Hours and Overtime Claim. And for convenience, your Honour, we'd ask that those be marked.
PN3359
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Well, Mr Pill and Ms Pugsley, as they're going to be put in bulk through some submissions, is there any problem with them being tendered at this point.
PN3360
MR PILL: Perhaps just a point of clarification, the matter was argued before Johns C. Two of the three were not to be admitted as evidence. One of the three, which was attached to Professor Junor's statement, she was the author of and so it was intended and indeed was tendered as part of Professor Junor's statement. I can't readily tell the Commission which one that is, but that's the basis on which the orders of Johns C were made and indeed I cross-examined Professor Junor about the literature review that was tendered as part of her statement.
PN3361
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes, Ms Gale?
PN3362
MS GALE: Your Honour, the literature review, which was part of Professor Junor's statement, is not one of these three. These are the literature reviews which were attached to the statements of Professor Strachan and Dr May.
PN3363
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: And you press that to be done via the tender at this point?
PN3364
MS GALE: We don't press it at this point, your Honour, however we felt it appropriate as we're seeking to adopt these as part of our submissions that they should be in before the commencement of any employer witnesses.
PN3365
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: All right. Well, I think, given that these were apparently discussed before Johns C I think the most appropriate method is for the Bench, during the morning tea adjournment, to consider what the weight of these documents is at this point.
PN3366
MS GALE: Thank you, your Honour. At this stage, then, I would seek to call Ms Karen Ford.
PN3367
MR PILL: I apologise to my friend.
PN3368
MS GALE: I'm sorry.
PN3369
MR PILL: There's just one last housekeeping matter, your Honour. Over the course of the weekend we received variously emails following off the back of some emails Friday night. They were sent to Johns' C Chambers. They total about three volumes of paper. They're intended to be materials, as I understand it, that will be put to witnesses. The issue that we wish to raise at this point is that some of the matters and documents are documents that are relevant to the matters identified in the witness statements of the relevant witnesses. But there are also documents that apparently go to significant additional matters.
PN3370
Now, there have been various directions made in this matter. The NTEU filed material on 11 March but more significantly filed response material on 11 July, and in that material they identified some documents and provided various links to those documents. We haven't done a document by document comparison but it is apparent that there is a very, very significant volume of additional material that's now being presented, some of which is readily relevant to the material that is to be given by the witness. But some of it goes beyond that to other matters, and would, in my submission, have been material that was incumbent upon the union to file as part of the response material. So I just wish to flag it. I'm not sure how the Commission would like to deal with that; whether it's dealt with on a witness by witness basis as the material is put up, or whether there's some indication. We've raised at the outset of these proceedings the sheer volume of material, 18000 pages, the relevance of which is questionable in some areas, and it appears we're going to get tranche after tranche of folders and material from the NTEU as the matter progresses.
PN3371
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Well, I haven't seen or read that material, but I'd be very concerned that either party was disadvantaged in the way this case unfolds. I mean, this is a review matter under the legislation and what is really important is that everybody is given a fair approach to the material, and we're not constrained by the normal time limits. All right. And, you know, I'll just hear what Ms Pugsley has to say about this as well, but we might take an adjournment on this matter. Ms Pugsley?
PN3372
MS PUGSLEY: Thank you, your Honour. In relation to the documents filed over the weekend the largest number of documents relate to our witness, Ms Thomas. There is some 25 documents that were filed, or provided to us, some as recently as yesterday afternoon. And a number of those relate to position descriptions for casual academic staff, workload guidelines, workload models, and casual appointment letters for academic staff. Those were, as I understood, documents in those categories were attached to the first witness statement of Mr McAlpine. Those were some of the categories; academic workloads, academic performance, expectations, terms and conditions for casual academic employees were some of the categories of documents attached to that first witness statement of Mr McAlpine. As far as I can see those documents that we've been provided with over the weekend in relation to the University of Wollongong did not form part of Mr McAlpine's statement. Ms Thomas is listed to give evidence today. As I say, she is the witness in respect of whom the greatest volume of documents has been provided. I don't know whether it's the expectation that Ms Thomas would have been able to see the documents before she gives evidence later this morning, but clearly the timeframe in which they were provided to us means that that certainly has not been the case.
PN3373
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes. What do you have to say about that, Ms Gale?
PN3374
MS GALE: Certainly we have no expectation that the witness would be shown the documents prior to being on the stand. It's our intention to see if the witness identifies the documents or not. The vast majority of the materials are university documents in the form of policies adopted by the University of Wollongong and in relation to other witnesses, other university policies. We say it's appropriate and relevant to the matters in this case that we be able to test the witnesses' knowledge of the matters that they have given evidence on and of other maters relevant to claims in these proceedings.
PN3375
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: The first two witnesses today are your witnesses?
PN3376
MS GALE: Yes.
PN3377
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Are there documents being shown to them?
PN3378
MS GALE: I understand that there are some documents being shown to Ms Ford and we have been provided with a copy of those.
PN3379
MS PUGSLEY: Ms Brown.
PN3380
MS GALE: Sorry.
PN3381
MS PUGSLEY: Ms Brown.
PN3382
MS GALE: The Wollongong documents?
PN3383
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes. What I said were the first two witnesses were being called by the NTEU.
PN3384
MS GALE: Yes.
PN3385
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: And I said what documents were being shown to them? And you answered Ms Ford, and I think Ms Pugsley answered Ms Brown.
PN3386
MS PUGSLEY: Your Honour, Mr Holloway was due to give evidence last time and didn't get on at that time. So there are some documents that have been provided to the NTEU in respect of Mr Holloway. Ms Brown is giving evidence this morning and I've provided a small number of documents this morning. With relation to Ms Ford there were no further documents that I intended to provide to her except to take her to clause 39 of the University of Wollongong general staff enterprise agreement and I understand that there might not be a copy already in Sydney of the general staff agreement. I understand, from Ms Gale, that she has provided the Commission with the University of Wollongong academic staff agreement so that we can ask Ms Thomas some questions, but I don't think there is a copy of the general staff agreement. There's only one relatively short clause that I want to take Ms Ford to.
PN3387
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Right. Well, in a moment we might take a short adjournment for that to be facilitated.
PN3388
MS PUGSLEY: Thanks.
PN3389
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: So that I'm just clear, in relation to the three NTEU witnesses, but for any documents that might have been put by the employers to the witnesses, there are no further documents to be led by the NTEU in relation to those witnesses?
PN3390
MS GALE: No.
PN3391
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: And the argument then is in relation to the volume of material that goes to Ms Thomas and Ms Chegwidden later on, and it's asserted that there's something like three volumes of material; is that right, Ms Gale?
PN3392
MS GALE: Not anything in the order of three volumes, but firstly there's the pile of multiple copies of documents, so a fifth of that pile is the documents to be put to Ms Thomas. And there are, I think, three documents for Ms Chegwidden.
PN3393
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: All right. Well, what I will do is we'll take a short adjournment to facilitate the document that Ms Ford needs, and then we'll revisit what happens to the other witnesses after the first three in a moment. Thank you.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.23 AM]
RESUMED [10.31 AM]
PN3394
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Ms Gale, what we're minded to do in relation to literature reviews, subject to any views that Mr Pill or Ms Pugsley has, is that they would be admitted and clearly a question of weight ultimately when we deal with the submissions at the end. Do you have any views on that, Mr Pill?
PN3395
MR PILL: So you're going to admit them as a literature review submitted by the NTEU?
PN3396
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: That's all it is.
PN3397
MR PILL: As the Commission pleases.
PN3398
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes. Ms Pugsley?
PN3399
MS PUGSLEY: Thanks, your Honour.
PN3400
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes. On that basis then I'll just admit them and add weight in submissions. So I'm just wondering about the right order. Is there a particular order you want them?
PN3401
MS GALE: No, there's not, your Honour.
PN3402
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: All right. Well, the first one is headed Literature Review Academic Casuals Award Review 2014 Academic Casual Claim. And I'm just trying to see who the author is.
PN3403
MS GALE: There is no author on that.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: No author. So that will be exhibit S.
EXHIBIT #S LITERATURE REVIEW ACADEMIC CASUALS AWARD REVIEW 2014 ACADEMIC CASUALS CLAIM
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: The next one, Literature Review Academic Working Hours Claim exhibit T.
EXHIBIT #T LITERATURE REVIEW ACADEMIC WORKING HOURS CLAIM
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Literature Review General Staff Working Hours and Overtime Claim exhibit U.
EXHIBIT #U LITERATURE REVIEW GENERAL STAFF WORKING HOURS AND OVERTIME CLAIM
PN3407
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: All right. You may call your first witness.
PN3408
MS GALE: Thank you, your Honour. I call Karen Ford who is waiting in Sydney.
PN3409
THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name and address.
MS FORD: Karen Isabelle Ford (address supplied).
<KAREN ISABELLE FORD, AFFIRMED [10.34 AM]
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS GALE [10.34 AM]
PN3411
MS GALE: Thank you, Ms Ford. I can see you in the distance and you can, I hope, see me back here?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3412
Can you hear me clearly?‑‑‑I can hear you clearly.
PN3413
Thank you. Ms Ford, could you please state your name and address for the record again, please?‑‑‑Karen Isabelle Ford (address supplied).
PN3414
Thank you. And do you have a copy of your witness statement?‑‑‑I do.
PN3415
Is that a statement you prepared for these proceedings?‑‑‑I did.
PN3416
And is it true and correct?‑‑‑It is.
PN3417
Do you adopt that as your evidence in these proceedings?‑‑‑I do.
*** KAREN ISABELLE FORD XN MS GALE
PN3418
Thank you. No further questions.
PN3419
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Ms Gale, just to make sure we've got the right statement, the statement that I've got is a March 2016 statement. There was no redactions in that statement, is that the position, or has it been replaced?
PN3420
MS GALE: It has been replaced. It still bears the same date but on page 3 there should be significant gaps in paragraphs 5 and 7.
PN3421
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: There are blanks, yes.
PN3422
MS GALE: Yes.
PN3423
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: So I've got the right version.
PN3424
MS GALE: That is the redacted statement.
PN3425
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes.
PN3426
MS GALE: And that is the version that you have with you, Ms Ford?‑‑‑It is. Thank you.
PN3427
Thank you.
PN3428
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: On that basis no objections, Ms Pill or Ms Pugsley?
PN3429
MR PILL: No.
PN3430
MS PUGSLEY: No.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: That will then become exhibit W. Sorry, V actually, V.
EXHIBIT #V WITNESS STATEMENT OF KAREN ISABELLE FORD
*** KAREN ISABELLE FORD XN MS GALE
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes, Ms Pugsley?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PUGSLEY [10.36 AM]
PN3433
MS PUGSLEY: Thank you, your Honour. Ms Ford, can you hear me in Melbourne?‑‑‑I can.
PN3434
My name is Cathy Pugsley from the Australian Higher Education Industrial Association. University of Wollongong is one of our members, and I have a few questions to ask you about your statement?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3435
So you work in the centre of radiation physics; that's right?‑‑‑Centre for Medical Radiation Physics.
PN3436
Physics. And that, in turn, is with the school of physics which in turn is within the faculty of engineering and information sciences?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN3437
Yes. And your positon is classified as higher education worker 4?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3438
Yes. At paragraph 8 of your statement you state that you are on a flexible working hours arrangement?‑‑‑Mm-hm.
PN3439
And at attachment 1 to your statement you have the operation of flexible hours of work procedures?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3440
Can I take you to page 3 of your attachment 1?‑‑‑Of the flexible hours? Yes. Yes.
PN3441
And just to para-phrase the elements of the procedures or the system is that there's core time during which you need to be at work; correct?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.
PN3442
And then there's a band within which normal hours are worked?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3443
Yes. And you accumulate time which is carried forward either it could be a credit or a debit depending on how long you work?‑‑‑Yes.
*** KAREN ISABELLE FORD XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3444
And ordinary hours are 35 per week and once you accrue enough flex time you're eligible for a day off or the flexibility day?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.
PN3445
And there's an accounting period of four weeks?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3446
You say, at paragraph 8, that no overtime is paid under a flexible working hours arrangement. Could I take you to page 5 of your attachment one?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3447
And half-way down the page at paragraph 28 it states that:
PN3448
All hours worked outside the band with the automatically overtime if prior approval has been given.
PN3449
And at paragraph 25 it says that:
PN3450
Additional hours worked within the band with the automatically part of a staff members' flexi time credit, however if a staff member has hours in excess of their regular hours of work, and such hours have been approved as overtime, then they should be deducted from the flexi time total and paid as overtime by the submission of an overtime claim form.
PN3451
?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3452
So it is possible to be paid overtime notwithstanding that you're under a flexible working arrangement?‑‑‑True.
PN3453
If I can take you to page 2 of attachment 1. Can you see the heading there, General Purpose of Flexible Hours of Work?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3454
And the paragraph begins:
PN3455
The main purpose of the flexible hours arrangement is to permit staff to achieve a better balance between the personal and working times. The scheme awards as far as possible regulation of working hours, and flexible hours provide opportunities to exercise personal choice.
*** KAREN ISABELLE FORD XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3456
So it's true, isn't it, if you work under the flexible working hours system, you're not directed to come in at a specific time each day, as long as you're there for the core hours?‑‑‑Correct.
PN3457
Yes. At paragraph 6 of your statement you say that you've been involved in negotiations for the last two rounds of enterprise agreements at the university; is that correct?‑‑‑That the NTEU experience, sorry?
PN3458
That you have been involved in negotiations for the enterprise agreement?‑‑‑Yes, correct.
PN3459
Yes?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3460
So the general staff enterprise agreement is not a foreign document to you? You're quite familiar with it?‑‑‑No.
PN3461
Okay?‑‑‑Surprisingly.
PN3462
Have you been handed a copy of an extract from the enterprise agreement, Ms Ford? A single page?‑‑‑I have now.
PN3463
Can I take you to clause 39 which is the extract that you have in front of you which is on page 23 of the document?‑‑‑Mm-hm.
PN3464
At 39.2 it provides that the flexible working hours system is prescribed in the operation of flexible hours work policy. Were you involved in negotiations when the flexible working hours policy first came in and it applied only to a small number of parts of the university? Is that sort of within your knowledge?‑‑‑I'm not sure what you mean. Does it some areas or not all areas, or?
PN3465
Yes. I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but I think the 39.2 suggests that, at the time that this agreement came into place, there were only certain operational parts of the university where flexible working hours arrangements operated. Because 39.2 states that the flexible working hours system may be extended to other areas of the university where it's feasible to do so?‑‑‑So my understanding is that it's at most areas of the university.
PN3466
I think that there's another document which I think does make that clear, but, as I say, I'm not trying to put you on the spot with something that's not within your knowledge, Ms Ford. But if I take you to the last sentence of 39.2:
*** KAREN ISABELLE FORD XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3467
The relevant Executive Dean or equivalent or Director will not unreasonably deny access to the system and will provide reasons to the staff where a request for flexible working hours has been denied.
PN3468
So would you agree that there are benefits in staff of having flexible working hours arrangements?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3469
If I could take you back to page 2 of your attachment 1. At the end ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Do you mind if I get my other glasses, please? I've got another set of glasses that are more closer for reading. They're just over in my bag. Do you mind if I can I get my other glasses?
PN3470
Absolutely.
PN3471
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Certainly, yes?‑‑‑Right. Thanks.
PN3472
Do you want this document just marked for identification given the point it's at?
PN3473
MS PUGSLEY: Yes, thank you, your Honour.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: It'll be MFI9.
MFI #9 UNIVERSITY OF WOLLONGONG GENERAL STAFF ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT 2014
PN3475
THE WITNESS: Sorry. That's a bit better. Thank you. Sorry.
PN3476
MS PUGSLEY: Thank you, Ms Ford. If I could take you to page 2 of your attachment 1?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3477
And the sub-heading, General Purpose of Flexible Hours of Work?‑‑‑Mm-hm.
PN3478
And the last sentence notes that:
PN3479
The overall operation of the flexi time arrangement is at all times subject to departmental convenience. And a department may for a specific reason request a staff member to be placed on standard hours.
*** KAREN ISABELLE FORD XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3480
Again, do you agree that indicates that a flexi time arrangement is something that is desirable for staff?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3481
And you work for Distinguished Professor Rozenfeld; that's right, isn't it?‑‑‑I do.
PN3482
Yes. Can you just explain for the Bench what a Distinguished Professor means at University of Wollongong?‑‑‑A few years ago there was some levels bought in by the current VC to give Professors a system of being recognised for their output. So it's there's three levels; there's the Professor level, then there's the Senior Professor, and then there's the Distinguished Professor. So that's the three levels. Each level two levels, Senior and Distinguished meets a very stringent criteria and it's through an application process. So these Professors must apply to become Senior and Distinguished.
PN3483
Thank you. And does Professor Rozenfeld direct you to come to work at a particular time each day?‑‑‑No.
PN3484
No. And you're not directed to have lunch at a particular time or a particular duration of the lunch break?‑‑‑No.
PN3485
No. And under the flexi time keeping system lunch is the only break that you have to record, isn't it?‑‑‑Correct.
PN3486
Okay. So if you have a coffee break you don't have to record that?‑‑‑No.
PN3487
If I can take you to your attachment 5 which is some of your timesheets through 2015?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3488
And if I take you to the first page which is in relation to the period from 30 November 2015 to 27 December 2015?‑‑‑Mm-hm.
PN3489
There's quite a variety of patterns of hours that have been worked, so sometimes you come in at 7, sometimes 7.30, 8 all the way through to 9.30 on one or more occasions?‑‑‑Mm-hm.
PN3490
And then sometimes you finish about usually you finish at about 4.30 pm; 15th of the 12th you finished at 5.30, and then 18th of the 12th you finished at 11.30 am?‑‑‑Mm-hm.
*** KAREN ISABELLE FORD XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3491
There's no particular pattern, is there?‑‑‑No. No pattern.
PN3492
And then attachment 5 I think is for the whole of 2015, isn't it, Ms Ford? Yes, the last page goes from 29 December 2014 to 25 January 2015?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3493
And I've counted up the number of flex days that you took during 2015, and there's 16 that I've been able to count. Would you agree with that, or do you need to refresh your memory? I'm happy to take you to each of them, Ms Ford, if that would assist. So ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑No, I agree. No, I agree with you, 16.
PN3494
And has Professor Rozenfeld ever told you that you can't take a flex day when you've requested to take one?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3495
So on what occasion was that?‑‑‑I can't remember the day, and it would've been probably not in this period that is before you today, but certainly there's been times when I've asked for some time off through family problems and things like that, that it's that I haven't been able to have some time off. Of course that's not recorded anyway.
PN3496
Yes. But you're entitled to take personal leave if there are family issues? Personal carer's leave?‑‑‑Yes. That's correct.
PN3497
Yes?‑‑‑However, I had plenty of flex time, so it's more prudent for me to take my flex time when I've got accumulated flex to take it as a flex.
PN3498
If I could take you to your attachment 3?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3499
And that's an extract from the university policy called My Time Keeping?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3500
And on page 6?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3501
Under Booking Flex, the second dot point is that flex can be booked up to three months in advance?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3502
So you could book some leave in advance and give yourself a greater carry over balance than you currently do. Would you agree?‑‑‑Absolutely. That's correct.
*** KAREN ISABELLE FORD XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3503
Yes. And you've provided some handwritten notes on your timesheets where you indicate that you have forfeited hours. In other words, you have accumulated flex time and not taken all of that flex time?‑‑‑Yes, I just if I can can I say something? That that flex time that I understood that carried forward as the flex time afterwards that of this year. After sort of doing this situation if that makes sense.
PN3504
So is it your it doesn't say so in your statement, so I'd just like to clarify. Are you saying that there is some flex time that you ought to have been paid for that you haven't been paid for?‑‑‑I don't no, I didn't ask to be paid for the flex time. Is that what ‑ ‑ ‑
PN3505
And the system that's used at the university currently is called Web Kiosk, isn't it?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN3506
Yes. Can I take you to page 1 of your attachment 1?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3507
Dated 1 July 2005, the date that it was approved?‑‑‑Sorry, attachment 1. Yes.
PN3508
And on the left-hand side there's a reference to supporting documents, p0rocedures and forms of these procedures, and it refers to the Kronos time keeping procedures? So was Kronos the forerunner of Web Kiosk?‑‑‑Yes. That's correct.
PN3509
Yes?‑‑‑It was Kronos, yes.
PN3510
If I take you to page 4?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3511
And can you see Accumulation and paragraph 11 at the top of page 4?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3512
And the maximum credit or debit that may be carried over at the end of each four weekly accounting period is 10 hours. So that was the case under Kronos as well as under Web Kiosk, wasn't it?‑‑‑Yes. I believe yes, I believe so.
PN3513
At paragraph 19 of your statement you refer to talking to Irene Burgess, who was the former manager of staff relations, about timekeeping issues, and she suggested that you talk to your supervisor?‑‑‑Mm-hm.
*** KAREN ISABELLE FORD XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3514
In the period since then have you had any discussions with Professor Rozenfeld about your timekeeping?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, I have.
PN3515
Just to go back to where your department sits, your centre, it's located within a faculty; that's right, isn't it?‑‑‑Correct.
PN3516
Yes?‑‑‑It sits in the school of physics which is in the faculty of engineering and information sciences.
PN3517
Thank you. And there are other general staff employed within the faculty, aren't there?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3518
So I understand that you are a standalone assistant to Professor Rozenfeld and to your particular centre?‑‑‑Correct. Yes.
PN3519
But there are other general staff employed in the faculty?‑‑‑Yes, correct.
PN3520
And my instructions are that it is faculty practice that when somebody goes on annual leave for a couple of weeks, that person would arrange for a casual to cover them; is that your understanding of faculty practice?‑‑‑For faculty practice it is, but not my role.
PN3521
Yes. Okay. So are you saying you have never engaged a casual to cover for you when you're on annual leave?‑‑‑Well, first of all, it's not my place to engage the casual. And a casual has never been engaged while I've been on leave.
PN3522
My instructions are that it is the faculty practice that you would have authority to engage a casual to cover you while you're on annual leave; is that ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Certainly not. My role is on soft money, which I don't know if you understand what that is. So Professor Rozenfeld pays for my role out of his pocket. It's not underneath the faculty itself, so it's not part of the faculty pool of admin assistants, so when I'm on leave, I do not have the authority to organise for somebody to cover for me because that means it would come out of Professor Rozenfeld's consultancy account.
PN3523
And have you ever asked for a casual to cover you while you're on leave?‑‑‑No actually I haven't.
PN3524
And you note at paragraph 20 that the nature of Professor Rozenfeld's work requires him to work late at night and on weekends?‑‑‑Absolutely.
*** KAREN ISABELLE FORD XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3525
Yes. But Professor Rozenfeld doesn't expect you, as a HEW 4 general staff member, to work the same pattern of hours, does he? The same pattern of hours as a senior academic?‑‑‑No.
PN3526
No. So he sends you a lot of emails over the weekend?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3527
But he's not expecting you to work over the weekend to action the emails?‑‑‑No.
PN3528
In your paragraph 22 you refer to a seven month secondment that you undertook in 2014?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3529
And you say that you were competitively recruited into that role?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3530
Have you applied for any other positions with the university in the time since you've been in your current role?‑‑‑After I was competitively recruited in the secondment or before, or at the entire time?
PN3531
At any time?‑‑‑I have the whole time, but since I've been with Professor Rozenfeld just this at the time for the secondment.
PN3532
Thank you. I have no further questions.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Thank you. Mr Pill?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PILL [10.57 AM]
PN3534
MR PILL: Just a couple of questions. Ms Ford, can you hear me?‑‑‑I can. Thank you.
PN3535
Thank you. Now, Ms Ford, you're also an NTEU member who's participated in bargaining. You're aware that your terms and conditions are covered by the University of Wollongong General Staff Enterprise Agreement 2014?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, I do.
PN3536
And do you accept that your statement and evidence in these proceedings concern the operations of the flexi time scheme under that enterprise agreement?‑‑‑Yes, I do.
*** KAREN ISABELLE FORD XXN MR PILL
PN3537
And it's the case, as I understand your evidence including in cross-examination, that to work under the flexi time scheme that's an agreed situation? The staff member has to agree to that or indeed seek it? Do you accept that?‑‑‑Yes, but the role is a the roles are a flexi time role.
PN3538
Yes. And there's standard hours roles and the university can direct people to work standard hours?‑‑‑They can.
PN3539
And if you haven't agreed a flexi time role under the flexi time scheme you work those standard hours?‑‑‑Mm-hm.
PN3540
Are you familiar with the Higher Education General Staff Award of 2010?‑‑‑I hope so.
PN3541
All right. Are you aware that these proceedings are a review of that award?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3542
And are you aware that under that award there is no flexi time scheme or flexi time provision?‑‑‑Under which award, sorry? The ‑ ‑ ‑
PN3543
The Higher Education General Staff Award 2010?‑‑‑That's not our award at the university. Sorry, I'm a bit confused here. Is this our award that we've got at the University of Wollongong?
PN3544
I think you're using the term "award" to refer to your University of Wollongong General Staff Enterprise Agreement 2014?‑‑‑Sorry, then well I'm not aware of it, then. Sorry.
PN3545
All right?‑‑‑I was a bit confused.
PN3546
Thank you. Now, it's the case, isn't it, that you're responsible for maintaining your own time record?‑‑‑Yes. That's correct.
PN3547
And there is a process for seeking approval and claiming overtime at the University of Wollongong?‑‑‑Yes, there is.
PN3548
And that can include seeking verbal approval or written approval?‑‑‑Yes.
*** KAREN ISABELLE FORD XXN MR PILL
PN3549
And you can submit an overtime form?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3550
And there's circumstances in which you've done that?‑‑‑Verbal and written, yes.
PN3551
Yes. And has your overtime been approved?‑‑‑I haven't I yes, I've put in for overtime twice that I can recollect.
PN3552
Yes?‑‑‑And it was approved.
PN3553
Yes. Thank you. I have no further questions.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Thank you. Ms Gale?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GALE [11.00 AM]
PN3555
MS GALE: Ms Ford, you were asked some questions about the way that your starting hours, your starting time varies?‑‑‑Mm-hm.
PN3556
And you agreed that you hadn't been directed to start work at a particular time?‑‑‑Mm-hm.
PN3557
What factors do influence when you start work?‑‑‑Parking on campus, and it's quiet. There's no students on campus at that time, and able to fully concentrate on my workload at that time of morning.
PN3558
Okay. You were asked about whether you're required to record breaks other than lunch time and you agreed that you don't. Do you take breaks during the day other than your lunch break?‑‑‑I generally have a coffee break of a morning.
PN3559
Okay?‑‑‑Not long after I get there.
PN3560
And how long would that be for?‑‑‑Ten minutes. About 10 minutes.
PN3561
Thank you. You were asked about the timesheets that you've provided at attachment 5 which relate to 2015?‑‑‑Mm-hm.
*** KAREN ISABELLE FORD RXN MS GALE
PN3562
And you said that I think you said something to the effect that at the time you didn't understand that you could book flex three months in advance?‑‑‑That's correct. Yes.
PN3563
Could you just clarify what your understanding was at the time?‑‑‑I didn't understand that we could that you could accumulate because the carry over is 10 hours and at the beginning of this statement here, the accounting period at the start of 2015, I didn't understand that we could then book in, in effect, six days which would be six sevens are 42 hours in advance, but then that would carry over the correct amount. I'm sorry, am I saying that ‑ ‑ ‑
PN3564
No, okay?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3565
I think that's ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑And then I understood it and then that's what we could do to help get our flex under control.
PN3566
And when did you become aware of that?‑‑‑It's really hard to say. I'm not quite sure when it I'm sorry, I'm not really sure when we became aware of it. Whether it was no, I don't know actually.
PN3567
Okay?‑‑‑But I did become aware of it.
PN3568
Thank you. And Mr Pill asked you whether working on flexi time was optional for the employee, and it had to be agreement, and you said, "It's a flexi time role". What did you mean by that?‑‑‑Well, some most areas, other than certain core areas at the university, from my understanding, like the library, certain roles such as front counter, say, EI central or commerce central or places like that they have a 9 to 5 role or a certain role whereas, because it's about the role not the person, so the role is itself a fixed role for a fixed time role or it's a flexi time role. It's not about the person.
PN3569
Okay. Thank you. No further questions.
*** KAREN ISABELLE FORD RXN MS GALE
PN3570
DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Can I just perhaps ask one question. Ms Ford, it's Kovacic DP here. You mentioned that you became aware of the capacity to book flex days in advance and that minimized the hours that you may lose. Since you've become aware of the operation of the policy, have you had any hours that you've lost because they exceeded a carry over at the end of the four week period?‑‑‑Yes, I have. And it's not easy to try and juggle the six flex days you know, two flexi days a month, three months in advance, and then taking your time off, and your workload that you've got, and just trying to manage all of that together. It's more often than not that it'll be turned around and said, well, you know, that's not feasible to have that time off. So, yes, I guess I have.
PN3571
Do you know how much?‑‑‑No. I couldn't pin point it. And can I say the system only lets you go three months in advance. If I wanted to, say, book one of my flexis for December it doesn't allow you to do that. It's only three months.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Thank you. Ms Ford, you're excused?‑‑‑Thank you.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.06 AM]
PN3573
MS GALE: Your Honour, the NTEU calls Clark Holloway. Mr Holloway's redacted statement was provided earlier. It's the one with the black patch.
PN3574
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes, I have a redacted version.
PN3575
MS GALE: Thank you.
PN3576
THE ASSOCIATE: Would you please state your full name and address for the record.
MR HOLLOWAY: Clark Allan Holloway (address supplied).
<CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY, AFFIRMED [11.07 AM]
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS GALE [11.07 AM]
PN3578
MS GALE: Thank you. Mr Holloway, could you state your name and address again for the record, please?‑‑‑Clark Allan Holloway (address supplied).
PN3579
Thank you. And have you prepared a statement for these proceedings?‑‑‑I have.
PN3580
And do you have a copy with you?‑‑‑I do.
PN3581
Now, I understand that you have moved since this statement was prepared so your address is now in Victoria?‑‑‑That's correct. It's captured in the supplementary statement, but, yes, the address on the original witness statement is no longer valid. Neither is my employment status with the University of Wollongong.
*** CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY XN MS GALE
PN3582
Thank you. And do you have a copy of your supplementary statement with you?‑‑‑I do.
PN3583
In relation to the first statement is that statement true and correct?‑‑‑Sorry, is what statement?
PN3584
I'm sorry, the first statement?‑‑‑In its entirety, other than the address and employment status, yes, it is true and correct.
PN3585
Thank you. And do you adopt it as evidence in these proceedings?‑‑‑Yes, I do.
PN3586
And in relation to your supplementary statement, is that ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Yes, that is true and correct in its entirety.
PN3587
And do you adopt it as your evidence in these proceedings?‑‑‑Yes, I do.
PN3588
I seek to tender the witness statement of Clark Holloway.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: The witness statement of Mr Holloway will be exhibit W.
EXHIBIT #W WITNESS STATEMENT OF CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: The supplementary statement exhibit X.
EXHIBIT #X SUPPLEMENTARY WITNESS STATEMENT OF CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY
PN3591
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Any objections?
PN3592
MS PUGSLEY: No, your Honour.
PN3593
MR PILL: No.
PN3594
MS GALE: I have no further questions.
*** CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY XN MS GALE
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Thank you. Yes, Ms Pugsley?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PUGSLEY [11.09 AM]
PN3596
MS PUGSLEY: Thank you, your Honour. Good morning, Mr Holloway. My name is Cathy Pugsley and I am from the Australian Higher Education Industrial Association. The University of Wollongong is one of our members?‑‑‑Good morning.
PN3597
And so, as you've already said to Ms Gale, at the time of making your first statement you were employed by the University of Wollongong?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN3598
And had been for around four and-a-half years at that time?‑‑‑Correct.
PN3599
And you resigned from the university effective 6 May this year?‑‑‑I believe that's the date, yes.
PN3600
Are you currently employed by a university?‑‑‑No, I'm not.
PN3601
So in relation to resigning in May did you give notice of your resignation some weeks beforehand in April?‑‑‑Yes, I gave the required three weeks' notice. The majority of the notice period I took leave, so it was mid-April, I think.
PN3602
And given that you have relocated to Victoria, did you know, at the time of making this statement in March, that you were likely to be relocating and resigning in April ?‑‑‑I highly suspected I would because I was being bullied by the university management, yes.
PN3603
And in your first statement, at paragraph 7, you state that at the time of making the statement you were president of the University of Wollongong branch of the NTEU. So you'd be quite familiar with the general staff agreement applying at the university?‑‑‑Fairly familiar, yes.
PN3604
I believe I've already handed up copies of the general staff agreement. If not, I will do so now.
PN3605
THE ASSOCIATE: MF9.
*** CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3606
MS PUGSLEY: MFI9, thank you. Did I give you enough copies to hand to the witness?
PN3607
So do you now have that in front of you, Mr Holloway?‑‑‑Yes, I do.
PN3608
Yes. Could I take you to page 22 of the enterprise agreement. And can you see that paragraph 36.2 is headed Span of Hours, and sets out ordinary hours of duty?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3609
Yes. And you were in information technology, and so your particular span of hours was as at 36.2.4; is that right?‑‑‑I've sorry, yes, it mentions IMTS and 36.2.3 and 36.2.4. Yes, correct.
PN3610
Okay. And so was the band width for your role 8 am to 7 pm Monday to Friday?‑‑‑Yes, that's what's stated.
PN3611
Yes. And can I take you to page 24 of the enterprise agreement, and clause 43. Can you see where that says that hours worked outside the band width are overtime?‑‑‑I can see where the enterprise agreement says that, yes.
PN3612
And in paragraph 9 of your first witness statement you refer to a new online timekeeping record system. Are you referring there to the Web Kiosk system?‑‑‑Paragraph 9 of my statement?
PN3613
Of your first statement?‑‑‑Yes, the Web Kiosk system. Yes.
PN3614
Yes. And that replaced the Kronos system?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN3615
Yes. I'm going to ask that a document be handed to you. I'll just ask the Associate whether those copies were made.
PN3616
THE ASSOCIATE: Yes.
PN3617
MS PUGSLEY: Thank you. Mr Holloway, we were one short in terms of numbers of documents?‑‑‑Right. Okay.
*** CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3618
So do you have a document in front of you now, a single-page document, headed Overtime and Related Expenses Claim Form? It should be the second document in the bundle?‑‑‑Headed Overtime Expenses Claim Form.
PN3619
Overtime Related Expenses Claim Form?‑‑‑I don't see that.
PN3620
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: He's got a very large bundle of documents that's he's been given.
PN3621
MS GALE: It's five pages in.
PN3622
MS PUGSLEY: Okay?‑‑‑I've got it, yes.
PN3623
Thank you?‑‑‑I'm in there now.
PN3624
And it says that it's for professional services staff levels 1 to 7 only?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3625
And levels 1 to 7 are the levels to whom overtime applies under the enterprise agreement; that's right, isn't it?‑‑‑That's as I read it, yes.
PN3626
Yes?‑‑‑Although I have no experience of overtime.
PN3627
Do you have experience of the enterprise agreement?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3628
Yes. And can you see that the next line down says claims for overtime are made via the employee Web Kiosk?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3629
And then about half-way down there's another subheading, Time in Lieu. And there's the option of being credited for time in lieu rather than overtime. You can see that?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3630
Yes. So you didn't ever fill in a form of this nature if you wanted to claim overtime?‑‑‑I have never attempted to claim overtime and I've never seen this form.
*** CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3631
If I can take you to clause 43.8 of the enterprise agreement. Can you see that that clause allows for time in lieu to be given instead of overtime by agreement?‑‑‑Yes, I see.
PN3632
Yes. So the enterprise agreement allows for overtime and for time in lieu?‑‑‑As you say, yes.
PN3633
And in both of your statements you refer to the flex time arrangements at the university. So you yourself were on a flex time arrangement, were you?‑‑‑Generally I was on an agreement with my direct manager whereby I would work 35 hours a week but not use the employee Web Kiosk timekeeping system because it didn't allow certain hours to be input.
PN3634
So were you on a flexi time arrangement system whereby there were core hours that you had to work but you could choose the time that you actually started and finished?‑‑‑I was on a like I said, I was on an agreement with my direct manager whereby I got the job done, and worked whatever hours necessary to get the job done.
PN3635
So you weren't directed to come in at a particular time or to leave at a particular time?‑‑‑I was never directed to come in or leave at a particular time, no.
PN3636
No. And can you find a document among your bundle headed Professional Services Staff Time and Attendance Policy?‑‑‑Well, if you give me time I suppose I can.
PN3637
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Ms Pugsley, the Bench doesn't have a set of this material.
PN3638
MS PUGSLEY: Can you give me a moment, please, your Honour. I think it's been handed back. Perhaps they've been handed back to Ms Gale rather than handed back to me for the purposes of handing up to you. So I can now provide the Bench with three copies of this particular document. So do Members of the Bench now have the Overtime Related Expenses Claim Form?
PN3639
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes, we have that.
PN3640
MS PUGSLEY: Thank you. And the Professional Services Staff Time and Attendance Policy document?
*** CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3641
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: That is so, yes.
PN3642
MS PUGSLEY: Mr Holloway, do you now have the Professional Services Time and Attendance Policy in front of you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.
PN3643
Yes. And at page 4 under heading 6, Specific Provisions for Staff on Flexible Hours, under subheading (2) it refers to the areas of work under the university's flexible hours of work model, and at (o) it refers to information management and technical services. So that was the area you worked in, IMTS?‑‑‑Yes. That's correct.
PN3644
Yes. And if I could take you to page 2 of that document. And at the very bottom of the page under 4.6 under the heading of General Provisions?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3645
It says at the very bottom:
PN3646
Hours worked as overtime are not to be recorded within the systems prescribed but are to be claimed separately.
PN3647
And then on the following page, page 3 at subheading (10) it says that:
PN3648
Overtime must be approved. It can be a verbal approval and after overtime is worked a formal claim for overtime must be lodged and approved.
PN3649
?‑‑‑Yes, it does say that.
PN3650
Yes. I'm going to hand you another document.
PN3651
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Are you changing topic, are you, Ms Pugsley? Do you want these marked at this point?
PN3652
MS PUGSLEY: Thank you, yes.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: so the Overtime Related Expense Claim Form will be MFI10.
MFI #10 OVERTIME RELATED EXPENSE CLAIM FORM
*** CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY XXN MS PUGSLEY
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: And the Professional Services Staff Time and Attendance Policy MFI11.
MFI #11 PROFESSIONAL SERVICES STAFF TIME AND ATTENDANCE POLICY
PN3655
MS PUGSLEY: I'm going to refer you to another document within the bundle. I need to make sure I've got enough copies of the Bench. This one is called the Operation of Flexible Hours of Work Procedures. I can hand up my copy. Mr Holloway, do you now have that document in front of you?‑‑‑I don't. Which document are we on?
PN3656
This one is called the ‑ ‑ ‑
PN3657
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Operation of Flexible Hours of Work Procedures.
PN3658
MS PUGSLEY: Yes?‑‑‑Yes, I have that.
PN3659
Can I take you to page 5?‑‑‑Okay.
PN3660
Can you see at paragraph 28 it states that all hours outside band width are overtime?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3661
And at paragraph 25 that it states you are also paid overtime if you have hours in credit at the end of the accounting period?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3662
In your paragraph 13 you refer to staff in IMTS working long hours and performing duties on the weekend to keep the university IT systems going. Can I take you back to the enterprise agreement? Do you still have that in front of you?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3663
Can I take you to clause 36.2.3?‑‑‑Okay.
PN3664
Some IMTS staff have a band width of 7 am to 11 pm Monday to Sunday; that's right, isn't it? You can see that at 36.2.3?‑‑‑Yes. That's correct.
*** CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3665
Yes. You say in your statement that, and this is in your first statement, that you believe that the university timekeeping policy was contrary to workplace law and entitlements. As NTEU president did you ever take this up in a formal way with the university?‑‑‑No, I didn't. We had quite a few more pressing matters.
PN3666
At paragraph 13 you say that you worked outside your band width and worked on weekends. Did you never claim overtime for doing that?‑‑‑No, I did not.
PN3667
So do you say that you were underpaid, that you've been underpaid?‑‑‑It appears, based on the documents we've gone through, that the university should have paid me overtime when they flew me to Hong Kong on a Sunday and flew me back on a Saturday.
PN3668
And you're saying that that's the only time that you say you ought to have been paid for?‑‑‑No, no, no, that's just one example.
PN3669
But you didn't ever take it up with your manager or human resources that you thought you were being underpaid?‑‑‑I thought I was being underpaid for various things. This I actually didn't rate this as an important point of underpayment. I was actually working as a level 8 project manager but being paid as a level 7 business analyst. I was taking that up with HR as a significant point of underpayment.
PN3670
I think, your Honour, that this reference to the re-classification has been redacted from Mr Holloway's original statement.
PN3671
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Right. So that's what the redaction refers to. All right. Well, what do you want us to do, strike that answer from the record?
PN3672
MS GALE: Your Honour, Ms Pugsley asked the question. Mr Holloway is entitled to answer it.
PN3673
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Well, the issue of his classification structure is not before us in this case.
PN3674
MS GALE: He was asked as to why he had not raised one aspect of his concern about underpayment.
PN3675
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes.
*** CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3676
MS GALE: He's entitled to give an explanation as to why that was the case.
PN3677
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: But this particular case is ‑ ‑ ‑
PN3678
MS GALE: We are not pressing any argument about under classification.
PN3679
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes. Let me just have a think about it. We'll let the answer to the question stand, Ms Pugsley. It's ultimately a question of weight in submissions as to what turns on it.
PN3680
MS PUGSLEY: Thank you. I have no further questions.
PN3681
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes. Before Mr Pill asks questions, are you in employment, Mr Holloway?‑‑‑I am self-employed, now, your Honour.
PN3682
When did you commence that?‑‑‑It's I'm primarily caring for my elderly mother. I commenced being self-employed on a part-time basis probably about four weeks ago. I got the business up and running.
PN3683
And is that in the business of IT, is it?‑‑‑No, it's not, your Honour. It's in the business of removals and trucking.
Thank you. And just before Mr Pill asks a question, I don't think we've marked the last document which will be MFI12.
MFI #12 OPERATION OF FLEXIBLE HOURS OF WORK PROCEDURES
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Thank you, Mr Pill.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PILL [11.27 AM]
PN3686
MR PILL: Thank you, your Honour. Now, Mr Holloway, you're aware that and all my questions relate to your time at the University of Wollongong?‑‑‑I understand.
PN3687
You're aware that at that time your terms and conditions were under the University of Wollongong General Staff Enterprise agreement 2014?‑‑‑Yes, I am.
*** CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY XXN MR PILL
PN3688
And the flexi time arrangement and the Web Kiosk system that's being referred to here, they were systems and processes that arose under that enterprise agreement?‑‑‑I would say that the system is not fully consistent with the enterprise agreement.
PN3689
All right?‑‑‑But that would be their perspective I would imagine.
PN3690
All right. Putting aside the system, the concept of the flexi time arrangement, and the flexible working hours concept that you referred to in your statement, that's a function of the enterprise agreement at clause 39; you accept that?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3691
Just have a look at that. Now, you're aware in these proceedings that this is a review of the Higher Education General Staff Award of 2010?‑‑‑Yes, I'm aware of that.
PN3692
Are you familiar with that award?‑‑‑No, I'm not familiar hardly at all with the award, no.
PN3693
And I take it from that answer you're not aware as to whether there is a flexi time scheme provision under the award or not?‑‑‑No, I'm not aware.
PN3694
Okay. Now, in your first statement at paragraph 13 you reference, and this is at the bottom of the page:
PN3695
Therefore several years ago my supervisor agreed to my request to stop using the timekeeping system given these unacceptable features.
PN3696
?‑‑‑Correct, yes.
PN3697
And it's fair to say that the substance of the evidence that you're giving to these proceedings and this Commission relates to the flexi time recording system, and in your view, the inadequacies and limitations in that system?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN3698
And in particular it didn't fit your particular circumstances in the IT work that you were doing?‑‑‑I should say I was in the IT department but I didn't do IT work.
PN3699
All right?‑‑‑I did business analysis and project management work, so I was not a techie.
*** CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY XXN MR PILL
PN3700
With that distinction now made, the system wasn't working for your particular circumstances and the activities?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN3701
And you approached your manager and put in place an arrangement that enabled you to capture your time you were actually working?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN3702
There are no further questions.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Ms Gale.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GALE [11.30 AM]
PN3704
Mr Holloway, were you ever advised by a superivsor or anyone else to claim overtime?‑‑‑No, I was not.
PN3705
No further questions.
PN3706
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: You are excused?‑‑‑Thank you, your Honour.
We shall take a short adjournment.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.31 AM]
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.31 AM]
RESUMED [11.49 AM]
PN3708
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes, Mr McAlpine.
MR McALPINE: I would like to call Andrea Brown to the witness stand.
<ANDREA BROWN, AFFIRMED [11.49 AM]
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCALPINE [11.49 AM]
*** CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY RXN MS GALE
*** ANDREA BROWN XN MR MCALPINE
PN3710
MR McALPINE: Ms Brown, can you state your name and address once more for the record?‑‑‑Andrea Brown, (address supplied).
PN3711
Have you prepared a statement for these proceedings?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3712
Do you have that statement with you?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3713
Have you read it recently?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3714
Is that statement true and correct?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3715
Sorry, I should have asked you one question before that one which is, is it true that the - at paragraph 1, you're no longer employed by RMIT University. That's correct?‑‑‑You're quite right. I have moved since then.
PN3716
Yes, so your paragraph 1 should read:
PN3717
I am currently employed at the University of Melbourne as a Safer Community Program Coordinator.
PN3718
?‑‑‑Coordinator, that's right.
PN3719
The next sentence should read:
PN3720
I have held this position since 1 May 2016.
PN3721
?‑‑‑That's right.
PN3722
In paragraph 14, in the fifth line, there's a missing word that should say "annual leave liability"?‑‑‑That's right.
PN3723
With those corrections, do you say that the statement is true and correct?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3724
You adopt it as your evidence in these proceedings?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3725
Thank you.
*** ANDREA BROWN XN MR MCALPINE
PN3726
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: The version of the statement you have in front of you is the one that has blanks on page 2. Is that the version you have in front of you?‑‑‑Blanks on page 2 and 4.
PN3727
That will be exhibit Y. Any objections Mr Pill and Ms Pugsley?
PN3728
MR PILL: No.
PN3729
MS PUGSLEY: No.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Thank you.
EXHIBIT #Y WITNESS STATEMENT OF ANDREA BROWN
PN3731
That's the evidence, Mr McAlpine?
PN3732
MR McALPINE: Yes, it is.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes, Ms Pugsley.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PUGSLEY [11.52 AM]
PN3734
MS PUGSLEY: Thank you, your Honour. Good morning - still just morning, Ms Brown. My name is Cathy Pugsley from Australian Higher Education Industrial Association. Both RMIT and Victoria University are members of AHEIA. I have a few questions to ask you about your statement. When you were employed at RMIT, what level were you employed at?‑‑‑Level 6.
PN3735
In paragraph 4 of your statement you refer to 21 years' experience as a general staff employee in the university sector and the changes you've observed over that time. During that period before you joined RMIT in 2015, Victoria University or VU was the only university that you'd worked for. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3736
The position that you held for the longest period was the EEO officer at VU from 1999 to 2014?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3737
In 2000, when you were employed at VU you were reclassified from HEW 7 to HEW 8?‑‑‑Yes, that's right.
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3738
So by the time you departed VU, were you paid at the top increment of HEW 8?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3739
I'm going to hand you a document which is an extract from the Victoria University Enterprise Agreement 2013?‑‑‑Thank you.
PN3740
Ms Brown, I haven't provided the entire enterprise agreement. I've provided some extracts of clauses that I'll take you to. If you can just beyond the first page you will see the professional staff salary rates, and you can see that there are columns applying at 4 June 2012, under previous enterprise agreement, then 31 December 2013 and 31 December 2014. If I take you onto the next page, which is page 79, the highest increment at HEW 8 is increment 7. So did you resign shortly or depart shortly before the end of 2014?‑‑‑No, not at all.
PN3741
You left in 2015?‑‑‑I left the university in May 2014.
PN3742
May 2014. So the last salary increase you received was 31 December 2013?‑‑‑That's right.
PN3743
So your salary at the top increment of HEW 8 was $91,812?‑‑‑Yes, that's right.
PN3744
Did you receive 17 per cent superannuation as well?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3745
In your paragraph 15 of your statement, you refer to working at an autonomous level in your role at VU. Can I ask you to flick forward a couple of pages in the bundle of documents, which is the extract in the enterprise agreement, and you'll see schedule 8, the professional staff HEW classification descriptors, beginning on 93. Then if I take you further to page 100, you will see the classification descriptors for HEW 8. Have you managed to find that?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3746
Thanks. So you can see that the training level of qualifications typically are at a level which assumes and requires knowledge or training equivalent to post graduate qualifications or extensive experience and management expertise, or an equivalent combination of relevant experience and/or education training. So it is an autonomous role at level 8, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3747
As you note in paragraph 17 of your statement, at HEW level 8 under the enterprise agreement you were entitled to time in lieu rather than overtime?‑‑‑Yes.
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3748
I've provided the extract of that clause, which is 44.8. Again, if you flick forward a few more pages in the extract you'll come to page 35, "Overtime for professional staff" and then page 36, 44.8 - - -
PN3749
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Unfortunately, Ms Pugsley, we stop at page 33. Was it earlier on in this document?
PN3750
DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: It's out of sequence.
PN3751
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: It's out of sequence, is it?
PN3752
MS PUGSLEY: Yes. Sorry, yes, it is. Yes, the pages are in the order that I'm taking the witness to rather than in sequential order.
PN3753
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: So this is - I've got it, but this document then is really just, as you're asking the questions as distinct from the - included in the document?
PN3754
MS PUGSLEY: Yes. Ms Brown, were you familiar with the operation of the Higher Education General Staff Award that sits below enterprise agreement in this sector?‑‑‑Yes, I'm certainly aware of its existence. I wouldn't know it in real detail and I wouldn't know it in as much detail as the enterprise agreement.
PN3755
So if I was to tell you that the General Staff Award is consistent with the VU Enterprise Agreement in that the overtime bar is at HEW 7 and then in time in lieu above HEW 7 for HEW 8s, you don't know whether that's right or not? You're not familiar with the award?‑‑‑I'm familiar with it to that extent, yes.
PN3756
Looking at the most recent portion of your time at VU, from around 2010 until when you departed in 2014, you reported at that stage to the Manager, Staff Equity and Diversity. Is that right?‑‑‑That's right.
PN3757
Yes, and was that Mr Cronin?‑‑‑Marian Cronin, yes.
PN3758
Do you recall having team meetings where Ms Cronin enabled staff to discuss workload and hours of work at team meetings?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3759
Did you ever have any individual meetings with Ms Cronin as well?‑‑‑Yes.
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3760
Were you one of two HEW 8s in that team?‑‑‑Not for that period as I recall it. For the few years leading up to 2014 I was the only level 8 officer in that team, in human resources.
PN3761
You were branch secretary of the NTEU at Victoria University for some time?‑‑‑Some time, yes.
PN3762
Can you recall how long that was?‑‑‑I believe it would have been for two terms, so that would be eight years.
PN3763
Going back to the extracts from the enterprise agreement, the next set of pages should be clause 17 which is flexible working arrangements. Have you been able to find that?‑‑‑No. Sorry, what page are you on?
PN3764
It's page 20, at the bottom of the page, and about halfway down the page is a subheading "Clause 17, flexible working arrangements"?‑‑‑Yes, I've got it.
PN3765
Have you seen that clause before, are you familiar with it?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3766
It provides for subject to operational requirements, requests for changes in time fraction, variation of work arrangements or movement to the annualised employment cycle. Were you aware that there was a policy that also dealt at Victoria University with flexible work arrangements?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3767
I'm going to hand you a copy of the policy. So you were aware of that policy?‑‑‑That's right.
PN3768
On the first page under section 1, purpose and objectives, the second dot point in the purpose was:
PN3769
To promote and encourage flexible work arrangements to enable staff to successfully combine their life, family and personal responsibilities with work commitments.
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3770
Without asking you to reveal anything that's confidential or ask you a question you don't know, were you aware that some of your colleagues working alongside you in the equity and diversity team had flexible working arrangements in place. You might not have known what the arrangements were for other staff?‑‑‑No, I'm certainly aware of one staff member I believe had flexibility in place in terms of a capacity to work from home one day a week, for example.
PN3771
I'm now going to hand you a document - - -
PN3772
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Do you want to mark this one?
PN3773
MS PUGSLEY: Yes, thank you, your Honour.
PN3774
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: I'll mark that one MFI 13 and so we don't lose track of it, the other document which was an extract from the agreement we might mark that as well as MFI 14.
MS PUGSLEY: Thank you.
MFI #13 POLICY DOCUMENT RE FLEXIBLE WORKING ARRANGEMENTS
MFI #14 EXTRACT FROM ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT
PN3776
The document you have in front of you now, payroll records from Victoria University showing leave taken by you between November 2010 and 2014. Can you recall that during that period you took a lot of single days of annual leave?‑‑‑Yes, that would have been the period in which I had returned from parental leave and I had an arrangement for some time where I was taking a day of annual leave per week as a new parent. It was also a case of the employer having an expectation that one's annual leave balance would be effectively managed and mine was seen as excessive. So in a sense it was twofold.
PN3777
So the effect of being able to take a day of annual leave per week meant that you didn't have to reduce your time fraction in order to have that day per week. You were effectively - well you were paid five days per week?‑‑‑That's right.
PN3778
So in effect you were working 80 per cent but being fully paid?‑‑‑I was being fully paid for five days a week but from my experience I was not working 80 per cent, I was carrying a full-time load.
PN3779
The fact that you were taking leave rather than actually reducing to an 80 per cent fraction meant that the defined benefit component of your superannuation was unaffected. Is that right?‑‑‑That follows, yes.
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3780
After the arrangement of taking the single days of annual leave ceased, what sort of arrangement did you then go onto regarding flexible working hours?‑‑‑Well I certainly didn't have an annual leave day per week, that's right. That arrangement did cease. I believe for a while there, from memory, I was leaving the university or leaving my workplace one afternoon per week, which fell on a Monday to do school pick up, and then I would work from home.
PN3781
You didn't have to enter into a formal arrangement with your supervisor in order to do that?‑‑‑Well formal to the extent that it needed to be thoroughly discussed and it needed to be approved, not only by my direct supervisor but it would have needed to be approved by my supervisor's manager. So I guess in part it depends on how one might define a formal agreement, but it was formally arranged to that extent.
PN3782
As the president or the branch at VU - - -?‑‑‑No, the secretary.
PN3783
I beg your pardon, the secretary of the branch at VU, you were familiar with the enterprise agreement, as you've said?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3784
So you were aware that there is a workload clause within the enterprise agreement for general staff?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3785
Now if I take you back to, I think it's MFI14, the bundle of documents which is the extract from the enterprise agreement. You will see clause 41 beginning about three pages from the end of the bundle. At 41.1, the clause states that:
PN3786
The university acknowledges that the workload for professional staff members needs to be reasonable and within the scope of the agreed position description.
PN3787
It refers to:
PN3788
The importance of a balance between working life and family social responsibilities.
PN3789
Then on the second page, there is a workload review process at 41.7 and ultimately under 41.8 which is on page 33:
PN3790
Where the workload review process has been invoked and remains unresolved the matter can be referred to the Fair Work Commission for resolution.
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MS PUGSLEY
PN3791
Are you aware of any circumstances while you were at VU where that workload review process was invoked?‑‑‑I'm afraid I can't categorically say yes or no. I can't remember. My sense would be that at somewhere in the university during that period it probably would have been.
PN3792
My instructions are that the clause has never been invoked?‑‑‑Well I haven't worked with a colleague or a member, if you like, directly on that matter so that's why I say I can't - but I might have been aware of something indirectly, in terms of at least my work as the branch secretary and assisting members that might come to the branch for information or advice in relation to workload, which was not an uncommon query or concern for a member to seek support or assistance.
PN3793
In your statement you make reference to your use of IT equipment at home. Can you recall that a laptop was made available to you for working at home?‑‑‑No, I do not recall a laptop being made available to me for working from home.
PN3794
An iPhone with email and 3G Wi-Fi access was available?‑‑‑I did for some period about three or four years before I left VU, I did have an employer provided mobile phone, that's right.
PN3795
Did you ever raise with Ms Cronin or any other managers the fact that you were incurring personal expenses as a result of working from home?‑‑‑I would have had a discussion with her at some point because I recall having discussions around that general principle, if you like, of claiming such expenses essentially through the public purse.
PN3796
So you did claim some as a tax deduction?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3797
I have no further questions.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Well, I should mark these two documents as exhibit - MFI15 and 16. MFI15 is the document 4 February 2011 with dates on it. MFI16 is the second document which is the details from Andrea Brown 19 November 2010 through to 3 May 2014
MFI #15 DOCUMENT DATED 04/02/2011
MFI #16 DOCUMENT - DETAILS FROM ANDREA BROWN 19/11/2010-03/05/2014
Mr Pill, any questions?
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MS PUGSLEY
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PILL [12.14 PM]
PN3800
MR PILL: Yes, your Honour, thank you. Thank you, Ms Brown, I just want to understand a couple of things about your working hours. Your statement goes to both your employment at VU and then briefly at RMIT. Is that right?‑‑‑That's right.
PN3801
But the substance of the material in it is directed at your employment at Victoria University?‑‑‑That's right.
PN3802
Predominantly in your role in the HEW 8 position as the EEO officer?‑‑‑Well, yes, to the extent that I was there for those years. But equally I have made some relevant points in relation to my first role at the university as an administrative officer in the research centre.
PN3803
What period was that?‑‑‑95 to 99.
PN3804
So at paragraph 13 of your statement you give evidence of:
PN3805
I recall regularly working on average between 40 to 42 hours per week in this administrative role in the research centre.
PN3806
That's the period of employment that you've just referred to, 95 to 99?‑‑‑That's right.
PN3807
Now your evidence is that you recall - did you record your hours in writing at that time?‑‑‑Initially, my recollection is that initially yes, there was a recording of working hours. It was an arrangement that was struck between myself and my direct supervisor who is the - was then the director of the centre. Which was also an arrangement struck because there was a need to keep track of working hours and there was a need to collect relevant information on the working hours so my TOIL accrual could be clear.
PN3808
As I understand your evidence at paragraph 14, you would then access that TOIL often during periods of leave and sometimes the university close down period?‑‑‑Yes, that's true.
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MR PILL
PN3809
Now you were asked some questions by Ms Pugsley about your flexible working arrangements, and you mentioned caring for your son and taking annual leave one day a week. Now it's the case isn't it that you at that point were having every Friday off as an annual leave day to care for your son?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3810
You were asked questions about the effect on your defined benefit fund, and Ms Pugsley put to you because you were getting a full-time load that it didn't impact your - did not impact your defined benefit super. Your answer was that yes, that follows. Now it's the case isn't it, it's more than it follows. You actually raised this with your supervisor that you didn't wish to enter into a formalised flexible working arrangement and drop your number of days a week because you wished to receive that full-time salary and the consequential full-time defined benefit. Agree with that?‑‑‑Yes, I'm sure I discussed that with Marian. No, it would have been before then. It would have been before Marian started, so when I returned from parental leave it probably would have - may have occurred then.
PN3811
It continued for a period of time until your son went to school?‑‑‑(No audible reply)
PN3812
Is that right? You just need to say yes for the record?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3813
At that stage you entered into, as I understand the answers you gave before, an informal arrangement whereby you would leave early on Mondays, I think your evidence was, and then you'd work back later?‑‑‑I would work from home once I had done school pick up, that's right.
PN3814
It's also the case that you had flexibility in terms of your hours. You generally drop your son at school before coming to work?‑‑‑Yes, as I do now.
PN3815
Do you accept that it's fair to say that you entered into various arrangements with Victoria University to provide flexibility to assist you in accommodating your parental responsibilities?‑‑‑Yes, that's a fair summary.
PN3816
They changed over time as your personal circumstances and consequentially your parental needs changed over time?‑‑‑Yes, that's a fair summary.
PN3817
The university also supported you in other ways, taking on further studies to complete studies in industrial relations?‑‑‑Yes, I finished my Masters, that's right.
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MR PILL
PN3818
Also provided professional development opportunities, attending conferences?‑‑‑Although I think it's perhaps useful to add that completing the last few units of my Masters by coursework were after hours, so there were afterhours lectures and weekend lectures. I probably may have taken some form of study leave as we were entitled as professional staff to sit an examination, but other than that I don't recall significant periods of leave for study purposes.
PN3819
This study that you were doing, your Masters in industrial relations, you weren't directed or required by the university to undertake that?‑‑‑I wasn't directed by the university, no.
PN3820
Now you give evidence at paragraph 17:
PN3821
My experience of working hours in that role -
PN3822
And we're now talking about the HEW 8 role -
PN3823
was that long working hours would be required and expected in order to complete what needed to be done on time. In addition, it was implicit that paid overtime would not be approved even for the HEW 6 disability liaison officers. For example, who were eligible for paid overtime under the agreement. At level HEW 8 I was entitled to compensation for additional hours worked as time off in lieu but not paid overtime.
PN3824
I take it from your evidence there that you're aware that at Victoria University there were entitlements to claim, in the case of the HEW 6 that you refer to there, paid overtime, and in your case time off in lieu?‑‑‑That's right.
PN3825
The issues that you raised in your statement are in your view that the university was not properly applying the terms of the enterprise agreement in respect of those entitlements?‑‑‑I'm implying that, yes.
PN3826
You're aware that these proceedings a review of the Higher Education General Staff Aware of 2010? You're aware of that?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3827
You're aware that your terms and conditions and those of the staff that you refer to have during the relevant times been covered by enterprise agreements rather than by that award?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3828
Now at 19 you give evidence that you regularly worked around a nine hour day, and this is I take it again the HEW 8 role?‑‑‑Well it became the HEW 8 role, yes.
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MR PILL
PN3829
Yes, so it was a HEW 8 role from 2000?‑‑‑Yes, what date exactly I'm not sure but when I commenced the role it was a level 7.
PN3830
That was in - well your evidence previously was you were an admin officer from 1995 to 1999 - - -?‑‑‑And I commenced the EEO officer role in 1999 at a level 7.
PN3831
Then at some stage date unknown in 2000 it was reclassified, and you applied for that reclassification or did your supervisor put you up?‑‑‑Actually it was a bit of both.
PN3832
It was reclassified recognising the seniority and the timing of that position?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3833
Now your nine hour day, you say over the page:
PN3834
It was not uncommon for me to start work at nine or 9.30 and work through to 6.30, 7.30 in the evening.
PN3835
?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3836
Now where you accrued TOIL, you had capacity to seek to take that time off in lieu in discussion with your supervisor or manager?‑‑‑I could seek to discuss it, yes.
PN3837
You say at 21, towards the end of that sentence:
PN3838
While my employer and I knew I was entitled to accrued TOIL at a HEW 8 level for working additional hours, one of the ways in which my manager effectively achieved this change -
PN3839
And I'll come back to that -
PN3840
in practice was to insist on prior approval to work additional hours and accrued TOIL on that basis.
PN3841
You'd accept, Ms Brown, that you had capacity to go to your manager and seek that approval?‑‑‑I accept, yes, that I had the option to approach my supervisor to discuss TOIL and seek approval.
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MR PILL
PN3842
Yes?‑‑‑But I would add more importantly that the expectation in relation to the way in which this worked in the institution, and certainly in that workplace area of the institution, the expectation was that you would not seek TOIL for hours worked. That it was a requirement or an expectation if you like that you would manage your workload within working hours. Secondly, as part of that expectation there certainly was an implication that you wouldn't ask for TOIL or seek approval for TOIL. It was seen as you were a trouble maker, if you like. That you were putting yourself out on a limb to seek that and it was a risk that you may take. That was certainly a strong and pervasive sense in terms of how I felt at the time and how my colleagues felt in relation to the same matter. And in particular I think it was risky to put yourself out on a limb in that way in terms of either being in an organisational change plan or pending organisational change.
PN3843
Ms Brown, I'll just break that down. You gave evidence that there was the option to go to your supervisor and to have discussions about TOIL. Did you do that? Did you say I need to work some additional hours and I'll be seeking to take TOIL?‑‑‑I'm sure in the very early stages of commencing that role in 1999 that I would have had some exchange with my supervisor regarding workload, working hours and what all of that means in relation to accruing TOIL.
PN3844
Can you recall that or are you just reconstructing that you probably would have?‑‑‑I can recall absolutely having some exchange about that topic and I also know that the message that was given to myself, plus other staff, during that period was it's not - it's frowned upon, it's not something that we want to do. It's certainly not something that is done on a regular and laissez-faire basis. If you need to work additional hours you need to come and discuss that with a supervisor, your supervisor, prior to working extra hours, if you wish to or if you have an expectation that you will subsequently take TOIL for that.
PN3845
So 1999/2000 you're in a circumstance where you're actually taking an annual leave day on Fridays and you've discussed in your evidence before the Commission already - - -?‑‑‑No, no, no, sorry, sorry, 1999/2000, I'm not taking any annual leave days, I don't have any - I didn't have a child at that point.
PN3846
Right?‑‑‑I had a child in 2008. So when I had my child I was well and truly based in - it was still the equity and diversity unit and it was about 12 months before we were then subsumed into human resources more broadly, under a change plan.
PN3847
So this period 1999 until you left VU you're in the same role, the EEO role?‑‑‑And because there'd been so much organisational change the role essentially stayed the role, although it did change quite significantly but it moved to different organisational units in the organisation. Does that make sense?
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MR PILL
PN3848
Yes, it sat in a different organisational structure but your role was the same role?‑‑‑On paper, yes. In practice, I believe the role changed quite significantly, depending on who your new supervisor may have been and your new organisational unit, and while that may not have been reflected in the position description, the general emphasis of your work, those sorts of things changed significantly under the management of different people.
PN3849
In this role your evidence already has been that you worked autonomously, and your evidence in your previous answer was that you were told when you had this discussion about hours that you'd need to just come and discuss that with your supervisor, for working additional hours that might incur TOIL?‑‑‑That's right. So for the period in which I commenced the EEO role from around about 1999 through to about 2007, it is my recollection that the practice in the organisational unit was clearly one where you needed to seek approval from your supervisor prior to working additional hours, to then subsequently claim time off in lieu.
PN3850
I appreciate you've made some comments about expectations and your belief about how that might be received, but if we stick to the factual matters. How many times did you go to your supervisor and request approval to work additional hours and have that refused?‑‑‑I didn't go and do that very often at all. I may have done it let's say a few times early on commencing that role, but after that I did not go to have specific discussions with my supervisor to seek approval because the level of scrutiny, if you like, that was - that then commenced in terms of well why do you need to work extra hours, what precisely are you working on, why could you not complete that within your standard hours of work. You may have time to do that on Friday so therefore you do not need to work extra hours. You didn't put yourself through that once you had had an experience at that level of detailed scrutiny, if you like, about the nature of your work and why you may be doing additional hours. So effectively from my experience, seeking approval to work additional hours prior to working them was quite a barrier. Because you would be put through such a level of scrutiny in relation to your work that I didn't then continue to have those discussions with my supervisor. It was clear to me that it was too difficult, it was too hard, and there was also at the same time a sense of risk if you were to continue to pursue TOIL, there was an expectation that you would just manage your workload within standard hours and you didn't put yourself out on a limb to request or seek anything else. It was too risky and as more change plans and more organisational change consistently was the case at Vic Uni, you didn't do that within a change plan environment. You kept your head down.
PN3851
Ms Brown, I might interrupt you?‑‑‑Sure.
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MR PILL
PN3852
If I can go back to the question I asked you. The question I asked you was on how many occasions did you go to your supervisor and seek approval and have that refused?‑‑‑I couldn't tell you categorically how many times I would have approached my supervisor to have that specific discussion.
PN3853
On the occasions that you did, how many times did your supervisor refuse?‑‑‑I was never - I never took TOIL when I got into that role.
PN3854
Ms Brown, I'm asking a very straight forward question. On how many of those occasions did your supervisor refuse?‑‑‑It is very difficult for me to answer categorically the - to give you a number. If I had spoken to my supervisor on a few occasions then it would be a few occasions where I was declined, therefore no approval was given to take TOIL. So we'll put a number of four on it.
PN3855
Ms Brown, if I've understood your evidence you go to your supervisor you say you'd like to do some additional hours, and there's a discussion about the sort of activity that you're going to do, whether that could be done within your standard hours. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3856
That was your evidence before?‑‑‑That was the process. You were required to go to your supervisor before you worked the hours to seek approval to work the hours, which therefore is approval to take that as TOIL.
PN3857
Yes, and the question I asked you is when you did that the discussion involved a discussion about the sorts of activities that you'd be doing, whether they could be done during ordinary hours or presumably whether they could be done perhaps by another employee. Is that part of the discussions?‑‑‑Well that wasn't possible because my workload was not able to be shared across other employees. I was very much a solo operator in terms of my focus on employment equity and by and large my work could not be shared with others. So - - -
PN3858
Well Ms Brown your own evidence is that at least some parts, complaints and case management, were occasionally shared amongst senior staff?‑‑‑Yes, that's right. That's one element of the role, that's just one element of the role that on occasion could be shared across another HEW 8 staff member.
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MR PILL
PN3859
Do you accept this proposition, Ms Brown, that as a manager managing an area that where a staff member comes to you and asks you about working additional hours, if the manager has to - wishes to explore that with you the sorts of issues that you've identified are reasonable and appropriate issues to discuss?‑‑‑Well, to an extent but my experience told me at the time that that level of scrutiny, that level of questioning and why can't you do it at this time or that time or some other time, and why can't you fit it in here or there, or something along those lines, for example, was at times very intimidating and to me essentially the message was don't come back and do this again. Don't come back and do this anymore. The implicit - at least implicit message was we don't want to approve additional hours so you will then be seeking approval for TOIL. You're expected to manage your workload within your existing hours, that's what's expected of you at that level.
PN3860
Ms Brown, you've just given evidence it was implicit. Can I take it at least that the evidence that you have given about intimidation, about those sorts of issues, that's not an expressed statement that's been made to you. You weren't told that you can't raise these issues or discuss TOIL. Do you accept that?‑‑‑I accept that I don't recall being told explicitly you cannot raise that subject.
PN3861
It's also the case, isn't it, that contrary to your statement at paragraph 23, that the university does pay overtime and provide TOIL to its employees?‑‑‑I would suggest that it's extremely rare that the university pays paid overtime to all its general staff where it's required.
PN3862
Are you in a position to tell the Commission how much paid overtime Victoria University paid to its professional staff?‑‑‑No, I'm not in a position to be clear about that and I know that there would be some employees in the university at some point in time, probably even today on the odd occasion may receive paid overtime for the hours that they do.
PN3863
So you're not aware, Ms Brown, that the university pays in the millions of dollars for its overtime?‑‑‑I wouldn't be aware that they pay millions of dollars of paid overtime, no.
PN3864
Nor would you be aware that they paid in excess of 1300 hours of TOIL over say 2013 to 2015?‑‑‑I haven't got access to those figures, no.
PN3865
So the evidence in your statement, none of your role, notwithstanding it's in HR, none of your role had direct responsibility for management of overtime at the university?‑‑‑No.
PN3866
Or for the management of TOIL at the university?‑‑‑That's - I did have supervision responsibilities in the role at some point, so the extent to which that would be a matter for me as a supervisor, yes. But other than that - - -
PN3867
So in your capacity as a supervisor of other employees in your team you manage TOIL?‑‑‑Yes, yes.
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MR PILL
PN3868
But in terms of your role in HR, you're an equal opportunity officer?‑‑‑That's right. I'm not in operations or employee services, no.
PN3869
Now in any of these change management processes that you have referred to you weren't demoted?‑‑‑Not directly in level, no.
PN3870
You weren't counselled or disciplined?‑‑‑No.
PN3871
Your employment security wasn't threatened by the university?‑‑‑Well I guess in some ways it depends on how you look at these things. Certainly in - - -
PN3872
Well putting aside the fact that there is a change processes going on and you've given evidence that there is some reduction in general staffing. Put it like that as a threat to your employment, you were never threatened in relation to the security of your employment?‑‑‑Well not directly threatened to the extent that a conversation was had with me and it was clearly suggested that your job - you're on the line if you like, your job is going to go. Other than the last organisational change experience that I had it was pretty clear to me at least implicitly that the position I was then in at that time, which would have been 2012/2013, organisational change process that my position was highly likely to be abolished.
PN3873
When was the last time prior to that that you raised the issue of seeking approval to work additional hours?‑‑‑I hadn't sought approval to work additional hours for many, many years. The last time I would have sought approval or had some discussion with a supervisor in any formal sense to seek approval around working additional hours in order to have approval for TOIL would have occurred many years before being based in human resources. So it would have been around the time I was based in the equity and social justice branch, which was abolished. The whole unit was abolished as part of a change plan.
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MR PILL
PN3874
You're not suggesting that that arose because some many, many, many years ago you'd asked about working additional hours?‑‑‑No, I'm not suggesting that as part of an organisational change plan that entire unit was abolished because of that issue but what I am clearly suggesting is that in circumstances where the culture and the climate is one of fear and concern about job security, and fear and concern about the way in which you do your job and whether you are considered to do your job well or not, is a culture in circumstances under which it is clear from my experience that you don't raise issues such as TOIL for working additional hours per week, because it is not - it does not go down well. It is a risky strategy and clearly from my experience and what I believe to be the experience of many other employees who have discussed the same matters with me at that time, and indeed up until the present time, you do not put yourself out on that limb and take that sort of risk. It is safe for you to simply manage your workload as best you can, and if that means you do additional hours either in the workplace or you do those additional hours at home after, you know, 5 pm, then that's exactly what you do. You do not seek any form of compensation for those additional hours.
PN3875
Ms Brown, during this period where you're doing some work from home you have got flexible work arrangements as to dropping kids off at school and coming in later. For a period of time you have - - -?‑‑‑Can I just correct you there if that's okay, with respect. Coming in at 9.30 is not coming in late. Coming in at 9.30 - - -
PN3876
I said coming in later, Ms Brown?‑‑‑ - - - and doing your full hours and then leaving later is still doing your full hours.
PN3877
Yes. Now I'll finish my question and then you can answer it. So during this period where you're working flexible hours, you're coming in later after dropping your kids off at school. You're doing some work from home, as I understand your evidence. Did you record your hours?‑‑‑No.
PN3878
On a timesheet?‑‑‑No.
PN3879
Now in terms of working from home, has the university directed you to work from home?‑‑‑I don't think the - I wouldn't say that the university directed me to work from home. It was by mutual agreement that that was an arrangement that could happen during that time.
PN3880
That was as part and parcel of the arrangement to enable you to meet some of your parental responsibilities, where you were doing for example school pick up on a Monday?‑‑‑That's right.
PN3881
Now in terms of your ICT at home, you say that at least from 2008 onwards, is that when you first put on the internet at home is it?‑‑‑The internet would have been put on at home somewhere in 2007.
PN3882
2007. Do you use that for private purposes?‑‑‑To an extent.
PN3883
Does your family use it at all?‑‑‑Well they do now that they're old enough, yes.
PN3884
You'd accept the proposition that whether you were working from home or not you'd now have the internet on at home?‑‑‑Yes, absolutely.
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MR PILL
PN3885
Ms Pugsley briefly touched on it. Are you aware that at the university there is a range of IT equipment including laptops that can be borrowed. Are you aware of that?‑‑‑In terms of the organisational units that I was based in, the various different ones, there were very, very limited supply of hardware in that respect, of which other staff equally maybe drawing on.
PN3886
So the answer is yes, you were aware that there was some laptops available?‑‑‑In my immediate organisational unit my recollection was that there was one laptop available for use for staff.
PN3887
Did you seek to use that laptop?‑‑‑I do believe on a couple of occasions I would have used it but it was extremely rare.
PN3888
Was that after 2007?‑‑‑No, it would have been before then as well as after 2007. I mean it effectively meant that you were required to take the laptop home each night and bring it back each morning, because it could have easily been required for a training session. So the workplace could not be without it.
PN3889
Yes, you appreciate that that's not an objectively difficult thing to do is it? Take a laptop home and bring it back?‑‑‑Well it's not a particularly difficult thing to do, no, but other staff were equally drawing on that one laptop as well. So it was a case of managing how that would be done and who may require it on any given night, on any given occasion.
PN3890
Now I think your evidence before - have you claimed your home IT use on your tax return as a work related expense?‑‑‑Yes, I have in the past.
PN3891
No further questions.
PN3892
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Mr McAlpine, just before you ask a question. Can I just ask this question about paragraph 8 so we have it on the record. Can I go first to your history with the NTEU and all the various roles that you've had. When did you start becoming active in the NTEU and when did that end?‑‑‑I did two terms of branch secretary and that would have been approximately 97, 98 for eight years.
*** ANDREA BROWN XXN MR PILL
PN3893
Eight years?‑‑‑That's right. So they're two terms of four years each, and then I did not hold an elected official role if you like after that. But I remained a branch executive member for the VU branch, and I also remained active in terms of supporting in particular professional staff members that came to the branch for assistance.
Yes, thank you Mr McAlpine. Anything arising from that and also any re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MCALPINE [12.47 PM]
PN3895
MR McALPINE: Thank you. Just a couple of questions. Can I ask about in your case what effect do flexible hours arrangements have on the total hours worked?‑‑‑While flexibility gave me the capacity to meet some of my requirements in terms of parental responsibilities and at the same time assisted me to do my job, in no way does the level of flexibility of the nature that's been discussed here today mean that my workload was any less, and that I had a requirement to work less hours in effect in totality to get my job done. It simply meant that I had the flexibility to perhaps do my work in different ways. In different ways, in different means and at different times of the day or night and in different locations. But it did not in any way detract from the workload itself and what was required to be completed and indeed at times the deadlines required for that work to be completed.
PN3896
Now Mr Pill took you to various discussions about working additional hours and claiming for time off in lieu. At any stage during your work say since you've been a level 8 employee, at any stage have you received any instructions about working uncompensated hours or working additional hours, I should say?‑‑‑Have I received any instructions?
PN3897
About working additional hours over and above the standard hours?‑‑‑I certainly haven't received any instructions to suggest - instructions to suggest that you are not to work those additional hours, for example, so, no.
PN3898
No further questions, thank you.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Thank you, you're excused. The Commission will adjourn?‑‑‑Thank you.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.49 PM]
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.49 PM]
RESUMED [2.04 PM]
PN3900
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Thanks, Ms Pugsley.
PN3901
MS PUGSLEY: Thank you, your Honour. We call Sue Thomas.
*** ANDREA BROWN RXN MR MCALPINE
PN3902
THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name and address.
MS THOMAS: Susan Beverly Thomas, (address supplied).
<SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS, SWORN [2.05 PM]
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS PUGSLEY [2.05 PM]
PN3904
MS PUGSLEY: Ms Thomas, can you hear me in Melbourne?‑‑‑Yes, I can thank you.
PN3905
Thank you. Have you prepared a statement in these proceedings?‑‑‑Yes, I have.
PN3906
Do you have a copy of that with you?‑‑‑No, I don't but I can be handed one now.
PN3907
Thank you. Are there any amendments you want to make to that statement now?‑‑‑Thank you, no.
PN3908
Do you say that its contents are true and correct?‑‑‑They are true and correct.
PN3909
Thank you, your Honour. I tender the statement of Sue Thomas.
PN3910
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: AHEIA8. Any objections, Ms Gale?
MS GALE: No.
EXHIBIT #AHEIA8 WITNESS STATEMENT OF SUSAN THOMAS
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: That's the evidence-in-chief. Ms Gale.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS GALE [2.06 PM]
PN3913
MS GALE: Thank you, your Honour. Ms Thomas, I'm not sure if you can see me on the screen. I'm right up the back of the table from where you're sitting. I hope you can hear me at least?‑‑‑I can hear you but I can't see you clearly, I'm sorry.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XN MS PUGSLEY
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN3914
My name's Linda Gale and I'm representing the NTEU in these proceedings. I've got some questions. In the first instance, can I take you to paragraph 11 of your witness statement? In that paragraph you refer to a required online induction program for sessional academics?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3915
You quote from clause 31.2 of the enterprise agreement, which requires that the sessionals will not be employed beyond one teaching session without completing that induction training. Do you say that that is the online training effectively?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3916
That is required by the agreement?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN3917
The agreement says that's required for employees, that they're not to be employed beyond one teaching session. Can you tell us what is a teaching session in that context?‑‑‑We run usually two semesters per year and some faculties have a summer session as well.
PN3918
Now is it your evidence that all sessionals do that induction - are required to do that induction training or only those that might be employed beyond one sessional?‑‑‑As the enterprise agreement says it's for the second session that they would be employed, that they would be required to have done this.
PN3919
Now at paragraph 16 you say that there's a high completion rate, 89.7 per cent of casual academic staff complete the course. Can I just clarify, is that 89.7 per cent of those that are required to complete it or of all sessionals, or of all casuals?‑‑‑My understanding it would be of all sessionals.
PN3920
Is that an EFT or a head count figure?‑‑‑My understanding is it would be an a head count figure.
PN3921
Now you've given evidence that that induction program provides links to university policies but that academic staff, casual academic staff are not required to read those policies as the important elements are contained within the induction program?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN3922
Is that links to all university policies?‑‑‑Relevant policies for those staff.
PN3923
By relevant policies, do you mean the ones that you've listed at paragraph 13?‑‑‑Yes, I do. All of the policies are available on the intranet site should staff wish to look at other policies, but it is the relevant policies that are important.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN3924
I'm just trying to flesh out what people are provided in this online induction program and you're saying what they're provided with is the important elements of those policies listed at clause 13 - paragraph 13 of your statement?‑‑‑I believe so.
PN3925
Could the witness please be shown the document Sessional Staff Induction Session 2, which is a landscape document. Ms Thomas, this is a printout of substantial parts of the online induction program. Are you familiar with what it looks like online?‑‑‑I have looked at it. I'm not able to verify if this is the current online program or not.
PN3926
Perhaps if we look through it we can ascertain some of the aspects of the program and you can tell us whether they are consistent with your knowledge of the program. So to start with it's an online format and down the left-hand side there's a navigation column. You see that?‑‑‑I do.
PN3927
That indicates that in the current site we're currently at the welcome page. Is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3928
The welcome page has embedded in it a video that is - assists people with how to use Moodle, which is the online context in which this program is offered. Is that right?‑‑‑I believe it does it on the right-hand side and on the left-hand side would be information on the program.
PN3929
So if we turn the page to page 2 of the bundle, again looking at the navigation panel on the left you can see we've not moved into the workplace health and safety responsibilities section. This is one of the policy areas that you identified in your witness statement as being provided in the induction program?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3930
You can see that that starts with a general introduction to "What is workplace health and safety all about?". Going to the next page it has some specific information about employee responsibilities in relation to workplace health and safety?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3931
You'll see that in the middle of the page under the subheading "Act when you see hazards", there's a link there, "use the incident and hazard reporting procedures". Do you see that immediately above the triangle?‑‑‑I do.
PN3932
Someone using this online program to do their induction would be able to click on that link and that would take them through to the incident and hazard reporting procedures?‑‑‑Yes.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN3933
If we turn to the next page, can you see from the heading at the top, "Lecturer, tutor and demonstrator responsibilities" that this is now focusing specifically on duties that sessional academics might need to take into particular account?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3934
Again there are links there to the work health and safety web page, to the information about the first aid box and to the emergency procedures on the work health and safety web page. Can you see under "implementing emergency procedures" that it says:
PN3935
Follow emergency procedures in response to local issues. Actions you can take to ensure you are prepared to act are; check the evacuation posters, know where the first aid box is kept and look at the emergency procedures provided on the web page.
PN3936
Do you accept - - -?‑‑‑I can see that.
PN3937
Do you accept that this induction program is encouraging staff to look at the emergency procedures on the web page?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3938
If you can turn to the next page in the bundle, you'll see we've jumped out of the online program and over to the work health and safety web page of the university?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3939
It runs over several pages but is this the emergency procedures guide that staff are encouraged to look at when it says, "Look at the emergency procedures on the WHS web site". Is this what people are being directed to?‑‑‑I believe so.
PN3940
That runs through to page 12, those emergency procedures. If I can take you to page 13 of the bundle, you can see we're now back in the workplace health and safety responsibilities part of the induction program?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3941
There is a section dealing with different work environments and there's five different work environments set out there that might be relevant for sessional academic staff?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3942
If you turn the page to page 14, do you see there there's a pop-up box that if you click on one of those work environments, that is "running a laboratory session" you get a pop-up box that gives you further information about running a laboratory session?‑‑‑Yes.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN3943
There are similar pop-up boxes that would come up if you clicked on the other work environments. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3944
In that pop-up box there is a link to the laboratory check sheet?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3945
So a sessional academic who is expecting to be working in a laboratory environment might well be expected to click through and have a look at the laboratory check sheet?‑‑‑They may do that.
PN3946
If we turn to page 15 there is a heading, "Policies that you should know about", and the two policies particularly identified there are smoke free workplace and drug and alcohol?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3947
Can you see that the last paragraph in each of those is specific advice as to the responsibilities of tutors in relation to those issues?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3948
Now is this - these are not the fully policies are they, these are precis?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN3949
So when you say that:
PN3950
The important elements of each policy are contained within the induction program.
PN3951
This is the sort of thing you're referring to?‑‑‑This would be an example, yes.
PN3952
If we turn to page 16, you'll see another page talking about a variety of issues such as first aid, emergency situations, incident and hazard reporting. Do you accept that each of those links leads to another pop-up box with further information?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3953
That's shown on page 17?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3954
You'll see that the pop-up box on working safely refers to:
PN3955
Safe practices is documented in safe work procedures. These are available on the WHS web page.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN3956
So that's a link through to a quite extensive set of safe work procedures isn't it?‑‑‑It is, not all of which may be relevant to that particular person.
PN3957
If they follow that link they may find a list which enables them to then make a judgment about which might be relevant to them. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3958
If you turn to page 18 you'll see from the navigation list on the left that we've moved from workplace health and safety into privacy awareness. And again pages 18 and 19 contain information about handling personal information and privacy, and there are a number of links to other documents and other pop-up boxes embedded in those two pages aren't there?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3959
Then there are some videos with scenarios that participants in the induction are asked to play the video and then engage in some thinking about the scenario through a quiz or otherwise. Is that right?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN3960
Page 20, still in privacy responsibilities, you can see a reference to the records management policy as a link?‑‑‑Yes. For particular guidance.
PN3961
So the guidance on whether or not sessional academic staff should keep any personal information or documents containing personal information that they handle in the course of their duties, they are referred to the records management policy for guidance on how long to keep that information?‑‑‑If they need to keep that information, yes.
PN3962
Well don't they have to check the records management policy to see whether they need to keep it?‑‑‑Or their supervisor would possibly instruct them on that too.
PN3963
Well it seems to me here that this induction program says quite clearly "go to the policy". Page 21 you'll see a document called "Records management policy". Is that the records management policy that is referred to in that link?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3964
That's a policy that deals with a large number of aspects of records management, some of which would be matters that fall to an academic responsibility and others would be administrative?‑‑‑Yes.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN3965
If you can turn to page 33, where proceeding through the privacy responsibilities and there is simply information on the guiding principles of handling private information. If you turn the page to 34, do you see again a number of links with pop-up boxes that provide information about obligations of staff in relation to handling private information?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3966
Then at page 35 it summarises the key points for a tutor?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3967
In that it provides a link to the student privacy and disclosure statement?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3968
And urges sessionals to take the time to check if it has already been collected and if it is covered under the student privacy and disclosure statement?‑‑‑Yes, and follows up with talking to their subject coordinator.
PN3969
Indeed. The next page at 36 you can see we've moved into the employment equity and diversity problem - employment equity and diversity section. Again there is a video that people are encouraged to watch and there are some pop-up links on that and the following page?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3970
That flows through to page 38 and page 39. Can you see on page 39 that there is a link there to the grievance policy about three quarters of the way down the page it says:
PN3971
A good source of guiding information is the grievance policy -
PN3972
and a link is provided?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3973
Turning to page 40, there is another scenario for people to consider. Further pop-up links to exclamations of concepts such as conflict of interest and abuse of trust. On page 41, another scenario and a few more links. Do you see that?‑‑‑(No audible reply)
PN3974
Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3975
Page 42, we've moved out of the equity and diversity section and into information about "support for your development as a teacher", and you see that the induction program encourages sessional academics to get involved in developing and being recognised for their teaching skills through the programs run by the continuing professional development unit?‑‑‑Yes.
PN3976
That sessionals are:
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN3977
From this induction program, sessional staff are encouraged to participate in these sorts of online and face to face professional development opportunities.
PN3978
Is that right?‑‑‑I don't think it says exactly that but it does provide information that they could take advantage of should they wish to.
PN3979
Then the last pages of the bundle, page 43 through to 51 are the glossary that's provided for the online induction program, which contains a lot of definitions and further details. Can I ask you to go back to the very first page of the bundle and look at the navigation column. Now in putting this bundle together I've focused on workplace health and safety, privacy awareness, equity and diversity, continuing professional development. I've skipped over the human resources processes, communicating with sessional staff, library support and the complaints management centre. I put to you that those parts of the program don't deal with policy matters but are more about how to get linked into online systems et cetera. Do you accept that that's the case?‑‑‑Without the information in front of me I can't be absolutely sure but I think you're correct.
PN3980
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Do you want that marked, Ms Gale?
PN3981
MS GALE: I'm sorry, yes, your Honour, thank you.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: MFI17.
MFI #17 SESSIONAL STAFF INDUCTION SESSION 2
PN3983
MS GALE: In that bundle can I take you back to the records management policy at pages 21 and forward. At page 25 there's a section called "Application and scope", and can I just confirm with you that this policy applies to all university staff including sessionals?‑‑‑(No audible reply)
PN3984
Perhaps if I can draw your attention to 3.3 at the top of page 25?‑‑‑Thank you, yes.
PN3985
At page 31, under the heading UOW staff, do you agree that all university staff have a responsibility to be aware of and to comply with the records management program and their responsibilities under it?‑‑‑That's what it says.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN3986
At paragraph 9, that they must also be aware of and comply with data protection principles, privacy and confidentiality requirements specified in relevant legislation, and the university code of conduct. Is that correct?‑‑‑That's what the document says.
PN3987
Is that what the university's policy says?‑‑‑That is the university's policy.
PN3988
So that induction program does go into some considerable detail about some policy areas but it doesn't deal with all of the policy obligations of sessional staff, does it?‑‑‑It would cover, I believe, enough of them to be able to perform their duties adequately.
PN3989
It doesn't touch at all on policies to do with teaching and assessment, for example?‑‑‑That would be covered in the local faculty induction.
PN3990
The online induction doesn't deal at all with policies to do with teaching and assessment does it?‑‑‑As I said, that would be covered in the faculty induction.
PN3991
Does it deal with - other than conduct in relation to equity issues and conduct in relation to smoking and drug and alcohol use, does it deal at all with student conduct or misconduct?‑‑‑That would be covered in the faculty induction.
PN3992
It doesn't deal at all with procedures for managing student academic misconduct?‑‑‑It seems to me that you're repeating the question in different ways. It would be covered in the faculty induction.
PN3993
Well in terms of the university's policies, student conduct and student academic misconduct are two distinct policies, aren't they?‑‑‑It's not my area of expertise. I don't know.
PN3994
The induction doesn't deal with the policy on campus access?
PN3995
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Ms Gale, one of the criticisms about this matter at the moment that's come to the Bench, this is not adversarial litigation, this is an inquiry, award reviews, right. The documents do speak for themselves. If there's a point you wish to make that goes to credit ultimately that's fine but it seems to me you're now getting (indistinct) of what's in a document and what's not in a document. We can read the document and that can be for submissions.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN3996
MS GALE: Thank you, your Honour. I am testing the proposition that Ms Thomas has put that the induction program covers the policies relevant to sessionals and I suppose I can simply say it certainly doesn't cover all of them, does it Ms Thomas?‑‑‑Between the organisational induction and faculty inductions.
PN3997
No, sorry. I'm asking you - I'm asking you about the online induction program. It certainly doesn't cover all of the policies relevant to sessional academics does it?‑‑‑It covers organisational policies that are relevant to them. There may be other - - -
PN3998
But it doesn't cover all of them does it?‑‑‑There could well be ones that the faculties do in their induction which also cover relevant policies for them. So overall, our induction policies do cover those.
PN3999
You've provided - at Attachment 2 of your statement you've provided a program for one of those faculty induction sessions?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4000
That deals, once it's got through the welcome and housekeeping matters, that deals with an early intervention strategy for academics apparently relating to student support issues. It provides a one hour induction to teaching. There's more information on support for your teaching, support for student learning and social inclusion and academic integrity and preventing academic misconduct, and engaging students in learning online. That's the sort of program you're referring to when you say that the other policies are dealt with in faculty induction. Is that right?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN4001
Can I ask that the witness be shown a document called "Policy list - staff", or perhaps it's "Policy documents at a glance - staff". Do you have that document?‑‑‑I do, thank you.
PN4002
This is from the university's website Policy A-Z, and you'll see again down the left-hand side there's an index of policy documents at a glance, equity and diversity, finance and internal audit facilities and services, governance, information technology, learning and teaching, workplace health and safety. The second last on that list is staff, you see that?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4003
This is the list of policies that are pulled up if you click on that link "staff"?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4004
There are 57 policies listed there.
PN4005
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: You're asking the witness to count that or just to make the assumption there are 57 listed.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4006
MS GALE: I will ask you to agree with the proposition that there are 57 policies listed there, or something in that order?‑‑‑Something in that order without counting them exactly.
PN4007
These are the policies that relate to staff as staff, that is as employees of the university aren't they? Conditions of employment, career path et cetera. They don't include policies that staff might need to access in relation, for example, to teaching and learning? Those would be - - -?‑‑‑Correct.
PN4008
I'm sorry?‑‑‑Correct.
PN4009
So they would be under the learning and teaching?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4010
MS PUGSLEY: Your Honour, I'm just not sure where this is taking us. We can see that the documents speak for themselves.
PN4011
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: They do speak for themselves but I believe it's going to lead to some submission at the end of the case about this matter. I don't want to do it in front of the witness but I'll allow the questions to continue.
PN4012
MS GALE: I'd like that document marked, your Honour.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes, MFI18.
MFI #18 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS
PN4014
MS GALE: Do you agree that there are lists of similar length generated by each of the links down the left-hand side of the page?
PN4015
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Ms Gale, there does come a point when the submission you're going to make is fairly obvious and that question that you're putting is an unfair question. I'll remind you again, this is actually a review, this is not adversarial litigation. It's the same comment we made in the penalty rates case as well, so you have to put the question - if you're going to put that question, you've got to put it more fairly and then we'll take an adjournment and the person is going to have to go through and see whether every policy is the same sort of length. You're making these broad brush statements to get what is a very, in one sense, quite a narrow point.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4016
MS GALE: Thank you, your Honour. I suppose I was attempting to short circuit having to go to other documents but perhaps it's simplest to simply do that. Can I ask that the witness be shown the document headed "Students". "Policy documents at a glance - student".
PN4017
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: I wonder, Ms Gale, if there's a whole bundle of these, can't you do them in one bundle and we'll take an adjournment so the witness has them all in front of them. Because they're all going to be linked. Because you're trying to show the volume of documents presumably.
PN4018
MS GALE: Yes, your Honour. There are four more bundles here.
PN4019
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Why don't we take a short adjournment and get them all in front of the witness and do it in one hit with the number of documents.
PN4020
MS GALE: Thank you, your Honour.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Commission is adjourned.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.41 PM]
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [2.41 PM]
RESUMED [2.57 PM]
<SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS, RECALLED [2.57 PM]
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS GALE, CONTINUING [2.57 PM]
PN4022
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes, Ms Gale.
PN4023
MS GALE: Thank you, your Honour. We've now prepared a bundle of documents which may assist in proceedings. The first part of the bundle is a continuation of like documents to that which was marked MFI18 and I wonder if for the convenience of the Commission it might be - you might wish to wrap them all into MFI18.
PN4024
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: So you want the workplace health and safety document.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4025
MS GALE: Yes.
PN4026
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Information technology.
PN4027
MS GALE: Yes.
PN4028
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Students, equity and diversity.
PN4029
MS GALE: Yes.
PN4030
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Just those four?
PN4031
MS GALE: No, your Honour, there are then a number of actual policies set out as well.
PN4032
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: The student conduct rules -
PN4033
MS GALE: So the whole bundle.
PN4034
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Procedure (indistinct) and misconduct, campus access, the university code of conduct, code of practice teaching assessment.
PN4035
MS GALE: That's - yes.
PN4036
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: All part of MFI18.
PN4037
MS GALE: Thank you, your Honour. Can that bundle now be provided to the witness please.
PN4038
THE ASSOCIATE: Is that the rest of that bundle, Ms Gale?
PN4039
MS GALE: All of that bundle that we went through earlier, yes.
PN4040
THE ASSOCIATE: Yes, that's been provided.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4041
MS GALE: Right. So Ms Thomas, you now have a bundle of documents in front of you?‑‑‑Thank you. Yes, I do.
PN4042
Now do you see that the first few documents in that bundle are printouts of the university policy directory, first in relation to workplace health and safety, where there are five links to other policies? Then in relation to information technology, then in relation to students where the list is much longer. Lastly, in relation to equity and diversity?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4043
I put it to you that there are in fact quite a lot of policies that affect the work of casual academic staff beyond those that are addressed in either aspect of the induction program?‑‑‑You have provided a long list of policies some of which do not apply to casual academics. For example, the Rosemary Cooper Award guidelines, some of them are repeated in the documentation that I've been provided with, and I stand by my statement that says in our induction we do cover the essential elements for sessional academics and I think that in our enterprise agreement we have that paragraph that we referred to earlier today, or you referred to earlier today which says that they're not required to read a number of these or understand them, or be aware of them until the second session of their teaching. So they are able to conduct their duties adequately without recourse - - -
PN4044
Well isn't it - isn't it actually correct that they're not required to attend the induction or to complete the induction until the second session of their teaching. It certainly doesn't say in the agreement that they're not required to know or comply with university policies, does it?‑‑‑I stand corrected.
PN4045
Now a number of these policies wouldn't be accessed by a sessional academic until particular circumstance arises would they? For example, there is a policy about how to deal with plagiarism, how to deal with a student who is engaged in plagiarism. An academic might not access that policy until an instance of plagiarism arises. Is that the case?‑‑‑That's correct, and in that case they may refer it to a course coordinator or such like person who would deal with it instead of a casual academic.
PN4046
I put it to you that sessional academics are expected to deal with plagiarism on a fairly frequent basis, and that they are not able to refer that work off?‑‑‑It's not my area of expertise but I would expect that they would get assistance from a more senior academic.
PN4047
You would expect that they comply with the university's policies when they handle an event like that?‑‑‑Or find someone who can assist them to do so.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4048
That would be a way of complying wouldn't it, to seek information about the policies?‑‑‑Yes, or to get assistance for someone to handle that for them.
PN4049
So they might check the policy by going online and reading it through this website that we've been looking at?‑‑‑They could do so.
PN4050
Or they might check the policy you're saying by seeking guidance from another staff member, as to what the policy is?‑‑‑Correct.
PN4051
What their obligations are?‑‑‑Correct, and someone who may handle the whole situation for them.
PN4052
They might need to check a single policy several times in the course of their employment, you wouldn't expect that someone would look at the policy once and memorise it and never need to go back and refer to it, would you?‑‑‑In the circumstances that you've given as an example, they may need to check that if they're employed on a longer term basis.
PN4053
In fact they're required from the commencement of their employment to comply with university policies, aren't they?‑‑‑Correct.
PN4054
Can the witness be shown the document which is a letter dated 15 December 2015. Ms Thomas, do you recognise that as an example of a casual academic contract from the faculty of law, humanities and arts?‑‑‑It's an offer of employment.
PN4055
If that offer were accepted it would form part of a contract?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4056
Can you see at the fourth paragraph it refers to the casual academic teaching employee guidelines, and a service level agreement enclosed with the letter?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4057
If you could turn to the third page of the document, that is a service level agreement. Are you familiar with this sort of service level agreement?‑‑‑No, I'm not.
PN4058
If you look at paragraph 1(a) on page 3, do you see there the document is expressed as:
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4059
Identifying the key responsibilities relating to the delivery of subjects, and is to be read in conjunction with the university code of conduct, the code of practice teaching and assessment and the code of practice casual academic teaching, and a number of faculty guidelines.
PN4060
?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4061
If you turn the page and look at part 4.
PN4062
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Wait on, Ms Gale.
PN4063
MS GALE: Sorry.
PN4064
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: The witness has indicated that she's not familiar with this document. You're now asking her questions about the document. Unless you're asking her for the documents - the three you've identified which are generic, there is a problem with this again because we are conducting a review here of the modern award principles. So you can ask her about them, once she says she's not familiar with the document it's hard to work out where this is going.
PN4065
MS GALE: Yes, your Honour.
PN4066
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Certainly the underlying documents seem to be generic and you can get those documents through her or through your own witnesses.
PN4067
MS GALE: Yes.
PN4068
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Indeed, you can call a casual academic from the Faculty of Law in your own case. These are the sort of (indistinct) the Bench is expecting to see from you rather than go through the witness who is telling you that they're not familiar with the document.
PN4069
MS GALE: Thank you, your Honour. Can the witness be shown the document "Position description, academic positions"?
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4070
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: That document well obviously is not going to - not be marked, so it will be sent back.
PN4071
MS GALE: Ms Thomas, do you have a document in front of you called "Position description, academic positions"?‑‑‑I do, yes.
PN4072
Do you recognise this document?‑‑‑I recognise the template.
PN4073
So this is a template in use at the university?‑‑‑It's a position description template that we use, yes.
PN4074
Can that be marked, your Honour?
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: MFI19.
MFI #19 DOCUMENT ENTITLED "POSITION DESCRIPTION, ACADEMIC POSITIONS"
PN4076
MS GALE: If I can take you back to that bundle of documents that starts with the web page printouts.
PN4077
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: MFI18, Ms Gale?
PN4078
MS GALE: MFI18. Could you turn to the first document immediately after the web pages, the student conduct rules. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4079
Is that the policy of the University of Wollongong?‑‑‑I believe so. It's not one that I deal with.
PN4080
The next policy, "Procedure for managing alleged academic misconduct"?‑‑‑Again, I believe so. It's not one that I deal with.
PN4081
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Ms Gale, is there going to be any argument about these being documents for the respondent? Is it not something you could take up directly overnight with Ms Pugsley and make the concession that these are documents from the university?
PN4082
MS GALE: Yes, your Honour, we could do that.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4083
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: It would just shorten the cross-examination.
PN4084
MS GALE: If I could ask you then to go to the last document in the bundle which is the University Code of Conduct. This presumably is a document you're familiar with?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4085
I'll take you to page 4 of the document. The very last clause on page 4 at 3.3, the guiding principle. Isn't it right to say the code of conduct requires staff to remain informed about:
PN4086
Act within the spirit of and comply with the university's policies and directions as well as any regulatory requirements of their discipline or profession and relevant legislation.
PN4087
That is an - - -?‑‑‑That's what the document says, yes.
PN4088
That's an obligation on sessional staff isn't it?‑‑‑Staff at the university, yes.
PN4089
Yes. Now you've provided a copy attached to your witness statement of the university's code of practice for casual academic teaching, and you've given evidence that casual academics are required to comply with that code. They're also required to comply with the code of practice teaching and assessment, aren't they?‑‑‑I believe so. It's not an area that I deal with.
PN4090
Now at the moment sessional staff are required to complete the online induction program and then they need to take steps, don't they, to register the fact that it's completed and ensure that they get that two hours payment?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4091
So you have put something into your payroll system that enables people to make a specific request in relation to that induction payment. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4092
Do you know what the cost was to the university of making those changes and training your payroll staff to be familiar with that payment plan?‑‑‑No, it's part of ancillary duties so it's in the code for a number of different items, rather than the standalone code for just that reason.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4093
The allowances that the NTEU is seeking could be dealt with in the same way, couldn't they, as an ancillary items, payments?‑‑‑I think the requirements of the plan would require us, as I said in my statement, to reprogram our payroll system and pull that out as a separate item to account for it.
PN4094
It's the university's expectation, the University of Wollongong's expectation is it not that sessional staff will engage with advanced knowledge and inquiry in the course of their teaching work?‑‑‑Could you repeat that please?
PN4095
It's the university's expectation that sessional staff will engage with advanced knowledge and inquiry in the course of their teaching work?‑‑‑I'm not sure where you're quoting from.
PN4096
No, I'm asking you a question. Is that an expectation of the university on its academic staff?‑‑‑Academic staff or its sessional academics?
PN4097
Well, let's take it one by one. Is it an expectation of the university on its academic staff?‑‑‑Could you repeat it, please?
PN4098
That they engage with advanced knowledge and inquiry in the course of their teaching work?‑‑‑Again, I'm not sure where you're quoting from and it sounds like a quote, so if it's a document that I should be looking at could you please direct me to it?
PN4099
No, I'll just leave it there. Does the University of Wollongong Academic Staff Enterprise Agreement apply to casual academics?‑‑‑Parts of it do, yes.
PN4100
Parts of it?‑‑‑Yes
PN4101
The agreement applies to casual academics, doesn't it?‑‑‑Yes, but not in its entirety. There will be parts that would be relevant to casual academic staff and some parts that would not be.
PN4102
Is it right that the agreement expressly recognises that some academic tasks may be more efficiently or may necessarily be performed off campus?‑‑‑Again, I think that sounds like a quote so if there's a reference I should be looking at please direct me to it.
PN4103
Can the witness be shown the University of Wollongong Academic Staff Enterprise Agreement 2015?
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: We might just take a short adjournment, Ms Gale, before that question's answered.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.18 PM]
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [3.18 PM]
RESUMED [3.19 PM]
<SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS, RECALLED [3.19 PM]
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS GALE, CONTINUING [3.19 PM]
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes, I'd ask that Ms Thomas you vacate the witness box for the moment please and that the court room be closed in Sydney.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.20 PM]
CONFIDENTIAL TRANSCRIPT FROM PARAGRAPH 4106-4110
<SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS, RECALLED [3.22 PM]
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS GALE, CONTINUING [3.22 PM]
PN4111
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Thank you, Ms Thomas. You remain on your former oath. Thank you, Ms Gale.
PN4112
MS GALE: Thank you, your Honour. Ms Thomas, one of the parts that the enterprise agreement that doesn't apply to sessional academics is the provisions to do with academic workloads, isn't it?‑‑‑Correct.
PN4113
So for sessional academics their rates of pay relate to particular duties that they're engaged to perform. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4114
The rates don't provide for any payment for time spent on university policies, other than the time spent in the formal induction session?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4115
They don't provide any payment for time spent on maintaining currency and the academic discipline?‑‑‑Correct.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4116
So the workload provision for the non-casual academic staff, that applies to continuing and fixed term contract staff. Is that right?‑‑‑Could you say that again, please?
PN4117
The workload clause in the agreement that deals with - that doesn't deal with casual staff deals with continuing and fixed term contract staff. Is that right?‑‑‑Correct.
PN4118
Now under the terms of your enterprise agreement, is it right to say that workload for an academic staff member is allocated prospectively each year on the basis of how much work an academic is expected to do, taking into account their annual leave plans?‑‑‑Yes, but it can be varied if necessary.
PN4119
That work allocation normally includes elements of research, learning and teaching and governance and service?‑‑‑Normally, but it may not.
PN4120
But those were the three elements that are consensually presented as parts of the normal academic workload at the University of Wollongong. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes. Correct.
PN4121
Then the agreement provides that each faculty will maintain a faculty workload's model that indicates the normal balance between those three factors relevant to that faculty. Is that right?‑‑‑I'm just going to turn to the workload clause.
PN4122
Certainly.
PN4123
DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: What clause number is it?
PN4124
MS GALE: We're looking at clause 25.
PN4125
DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: Thank you.
PN4126
MS GALE: 25, perhaps 25.4.
PN4127
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Is this document before the witness, Ms Gale?
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4128
MS GALE: Before the witness? Yes, it is, your Honour?‑‑‑So you're referring to 25.4.2?
PN4129
Yes. Both parts of that. So the faculty - the dean through a consultative process develops that workload model and that is - takes into account factors specific to that faculty?‑‑‑Correct.
PN4130
Then an academic gets their workload allocated under a model like that, and they're expected to do the work that's necessary to complete their workload to a professional standard?‑‑‑Correct.
PN4131
So they're not allocated a particular number of hours of work?‑‑‑Correct.
PN4132
They're allocated work on a - a sort of fair estimate as to how much work it's reasonable to expect someone to complete within a normal workload. Is that right?‑‑‑Well they're allocated according to what the workload model says.
PN4133
Now am I right in saying that your academic workload clause provides for a cap on teaching hours, teaching contact hours at 25.3.2.3? A normal cap, presumably there can be exceptions?‑‑‑Correct.
PN4134
But there's not a comparable cap in relation to governance and service or to research, is there?‑‑‑No.
PN4135
So in the allocation of workload for academic staff, there are assumptions made about how long it ought to take to perform particular duties. Is that right?‑‑‑Generally, that relates to teaching them.
PN4136
So an assumption about how long it would take to deliver lectures, for example, or to supervise a PhD student?‑‑‑Items of that nature.
PN4137
Those assumptions might vary from faculty to faculty on the basis of factors specific to a discipline?‑‑‑They could do.
PN4138
Is it fair to say, for example, that laboratory classes or one on one instrumental music instruction might be treated quite differently from tutorials in history of philosophy?‑‑‑They could be.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4139
There might also be allowances made for early career academics, that they might take a little longer to perform some duties that they're not yet used to?‑‑‑Yes. In terms of teaching?
PN4140
Yes?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4141
So how is the allocation of workload in relation to research generally expressed?‑‑‑I don't have anything in front of me. From memory, I don't think it is expressed that way.
PN4142
Not expressed in relation to a set of duties like that?‑‑‑No. Can the witness be shown the document - - -
PN4143
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Well, are you marking this one first?
PN4144
MS GALE: I'm sorry, your Honour.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: MFI19. MFI20.
MFI #20 DOCUMENT RE ACADEMIC WORKLOADS
PN4146
MS GALE: Thank you, your Honour. Can the witness be shown the document, "Faculty of social sciences guidelines for academic workload allocation".
PN4147
THE ASSOCIATE: Ms Gale, it's Bas here, Associate to Johns C, there are two. There's one of 22 pages, one of 15.
PN4148
MS GALE: The Faculty of Social Sciences one is 23 pages. There's a Faculty of Business one that's shorter.
PN4149
THE ASSOCIATE: Thank you.
PN4150
MS GALE: Thank you. Ms Thomas, do you agree that this is faculty workload model developed under the terms of the enterprise agreement?‑‑‑I believe so.
PN4151
Can that be marked, your Honour?
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: MFI21. This is actually Faculty of Social Sciences Guidelines for Academic Workload Allocation, which will be the correct title.
MFI #21 DOCUMENT ENTITLED FACULTY OF SOCIAL SCIENCES GUIDELINES FOR ACADEMIC WORKLOAD ALLOCATION
PN4153
MS GALE: Can the witness be shown the Faculty of Business Guidelines for Workload Consultation Discussions? Is that another set of faculty guidelines developed under that agreement?‑‑‑It's the guidelines, yes.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Faculty of Business Guidelines for Workload Consultation Discussions 2016, MFI22.
MFI #22 FACULTY OF BUSINESS GUIDELINES FOR WORKLOAD CONSULTATION DISCUSSIONS 2016
PN4155
MS GALE: The third of those, can the witness be shown Attachment 2, Current Workload Models Law, Creative Arts and Arts? Ms Thomas, do you recognise this as the school level articulation of workload models underneath a broader faculty document?‑‑‑This is a discussion paper and it seems to be prior to our current enterprise agreement.
PN4156
I withdraw that document. Does the University of Wollongong have any system to track the actual hours worked by academic staff?‑‑‑No.
PN4157
Academics aren't required to record their hours of work?‑‑‑Correct.
PN4158
You have a number of academic staff employed on a part-time basis. Is that right?‑‑‑Correct.
PN4159
Their proportion of salary is based on their fraction of employment?‑‑‑Correct.
PN4160
How do you work out the fraction? What is it a fraction of?‑‑‑We use a nominal 35 hours per week just for administrative purposes.
PN4161
So their proportion of salary is based on a proportion of a 35 hour week?‑‑‑Correct.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4162
How do you know what proportion they are?‑‑‑It's part of their contract, so it would be an agreed proportion.
PN4163
How do you determine what proportion to agree with a particular member of staff?‑‑‑Well I don't personally but an academic would come to some arrangement that is considered fair by both parties.
PN4164
Now your enterprise agreement workload clause and the workload models that are developed under it, estimate the time required to perform various duties but they don't measure it in terms of actually tracking time. So throughout them there are embedded a whole lot of estimates as to how much should be allowed for various duties. How were those estimates developed?‑‑‑Well I think our workload model clause does talk about the way that a faculty workload committee will work, and the consultation with the staff in that faculty. So quite a number of discussions to arrive at what is considered fair and reasonable.
PN4165
Yes, I'm actually asking about what methodology is applied to ascertaining what an estimate will be. Is it just a discussion at a meeting or is there - - -?‑‑‑I believe so.
PN4166
So there's no actual analysis of how much time the work actually takes in the real world?‑‑‑I don't believe so.
PN4167
Do the University of Wollongong contracts of employment for academic staff, other than casuals, specify working hours?‑‑‑I'm just working from memory, so I think we say full-time or we give the pro rata based on the 35 nominal hours per week as I indicated.
PN4168
Does the contract of employment for academic staff place any limit on how many hours an academic can be required to work?‑‑‑Not in quite the way that you're suggesting.
PN4169
Once workload's been allocated, academics are not directed how many hours they are to spend on any particular task?‑‑‑No, not that I'm aware of.
PN4170
They're not instructed to stop working when they've worked a particular number of hours in a week or a month or a year?‑‑‑Not to my knowledge.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4171
So once the workload's allocated, effectively the academic staff are to do as much work as they think is appropriate to perform their workload to a professional standard?‑‑‑Well I think there are a number of discussions that they would have with their academic supervisor, so that would be discussed I would imagine.
PN4172
Do they have annual performance review processes?‑‑‑We do have that process available.
PN4173
Is it used?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4174
Do those discussions involve setting out performance expectations or targets for a year?‑‑‑It varies from discussion to discussion but it could involve some ideas for work that could be completed for promotion, for example.
PN4175
Are there any circumstances in which university academics at Wollongong receive extra payments if they work extra hours?‑‑‑We do have provision for those who go above the teaching allocations and are required to do extra work to receive an additional payment.
PN4176
Where are those provisions found?‑‑‑(No audible reply)
PN4177
Is that in policy or - - -?‑‑‑I think there is some reference to it in the enterprise agreement but I would need to look to find out where it's located.
PN4178
Associate Professor Junor has given evidence about some research she did in 2001 and 2002, and she said that that research showed that 18.5 per cent of casual academic respondents to her survey held full-time employment in another industry. So people who perhaps worked as nurses or as teachers, and did some - or as engineers or architects or lawyers, and did some casual teaching. She said that was about 18.5 per cent of the casual academic workforce. Are you aware of any data that would indicate whether that's a reasonable for estimate for the University of Wollongong?‑‑‑No, I have no idea of that.
PN4179
Professor Strachan will be giving evidence that her research which was conducted in 2011 found that 43 per cent of full-time general staff reported that they usually work 40 hours a week or more, and nine per cent usually reported usually working 50 hours a week or more. Do you think that that's typical of the University of Wollongong professional staff?‑‑‑No.
PN4180
Do you have any better data than that provided by Professor Strachan?‑‑‑Only the claims for payment that come through.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4181
Professor Strachan will also give evidence that the same research found that 90 per cent of academic staff reported that they usually work more than 40 hours. 40 hours a week or more, and a full 51 per cent reported usually working 50 hours a week or more. Do you have any better data than that about the actual hours worked by academic staff at Wollongong?‑‑‑No.
PN4182
Is it the case at Wollongong that flex time and TOIL are more common ways of dealing with additional hours than paid overtime?‑‑‑Could you repeat the question please?
PN4183
Is it the case that flex time and TOIL, those days off or time off, are more common way of dealing with long hours, rather than payment for overtime?‑‑‑Are we talking about general staff now, not academic?
PN4184
Yes, yes?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4185
Now you've seen the witness statement of Karen Ford, in these proceedings. And do you recall that Karen Ford that she lost 135.25 hours of flex time in 2015. Do you recall that evidence?‑‑‑I recall that she said she lost some time
PN4186
That that was altered from the limit on carrying forward time in the flex system?‑‑‑On the online system?
PN4187
Yes?‑‑‑Now if Ms Ford is right and she worked 135 hours that were lost through the online system, without claiming or taking any overtime in relation to those hours, then that's a significant windfall to the university, isn't it?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN4188
Can I just ask for clarity. In your statement you say that an employee can book in two flex days in each of the four week periods for three - effectively three, four week periods prospectively. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4189
So an employee can perhaps take some flex time in their current period but they can also book in up to three month ahead, they can book in flex days up to a total of six flex days. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4190
So just to be clear, I think you've said that the maximum they can carry forward is 56 hours. Is that right?‑‑‑Not the carry forward but booking in time, yes.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4191
Booking in time. But actually in that 56 you've counted days in the current period as well, flex days in the current periods as well as prospective flex days haven't you? There's actually only six flex days you can book in prospectively not eight?‑‑‑Sorry, I'm trying to do the calculation in my head.
PN4192
Sorry, sorry. You've said that a person can carry forward 10 and clock up an extra 56 hours in carry forward?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4193
But that's not all carry forward is it?‑‑‑No, the 56 hours would be time days booked in and the carry forward would be the 10 hours credit, if you like.
PN4194
Now as it happens Ms Ford didn't book in enough future flex days to bring her balance down, did she?‑‑‑It appears not.
PN4195
Have you checked the records to see if Ms Ford's evidence was accurate?‑‑‑I don't doubt her statement. It is surprising - - -
PN4196
Now your online system for people to enter their flex time doesn't track how many hours are actually forfeited by staff in that way, does it?‑‑‑No, it doesn't. They are expected to manage and to talk to their supervisors about those sorts of things.
PN4197
So there was nothing flagged to HR that there might be a problem worth addressing there?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN4198
Now Ms Ford has given evidence that her supervisor often sent her emails on - work emails on weekends. That's not an uncommon practice is it?‑‑‑I don't know what his common practice is - - -
PN4199
No, sorry, I'm not asking about him in particular. I'm just saying across the university isn't it the case that academics in particular who tend to work evenings and weekends, tend to fire off work emails at all sorts of odd times?‑‑‑I can't answer that but I would suggest - I would think that some do that but they won't necessarily want those answered straight away.
PN4200
You've given evidence that there are workload peaks from time to time that mean that additional hours need to be worked. As things operate at the moment, when extra work needs to be done some people might raise that with their supervisor and either have the work re-allocated to someone else or get approval for overtime or TOIL or flex accumulation. Is that right?‑‑‑Correct.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4201
There are others who may simply do the additional without raising it with their supervisor. Is that the case?‑‑‑It's possible but we would encourage them to have that discussion.
PN4202
What systems do you have in place to ensure that such staff are compensated, either through overtime or TOIL or flex time?‑‑‑Well we have a number of policies as you can see that provide that opportunity for staff to have that time recognised.
PN4203
Is it fair to say that the work allocated to general staff, to professional staff at HEW 9 and below is allocated by the employer. They don't have much capacity to determine how much work they're allocated?‑‑‑I don't completely agree with that. We have fairly flexible arrangements at our university and our staff tell us repeatedly in our staff surveys that they value that flexibility. So a number of staff do like to work additional hours so that they can take time off if operational needs are balanced, at a time that suits them.
PN4204
I'm asking about work volume, that the volume of work that's allocated to professional staff is determined by the supervisor or the university, not by the professional staff member themselves?‑‑‑I think if you read in my statement you'll see that it's not necessarily allocated by the university or the supervisor but would come about because of the kind of work that people do. So a supervisor won't allocate, for example, a number of students to come and make an inquiry but students will come and make an inquiry when it suits them.
PN4205
But they will allocate to a particular person or group of people the duty of handling student inquiries as they arise?‑‑‑That would be correct.
PN4206
Do you accept that the extent to which an employee might feel able to make a claim for paid overtime depends on the personal work relationship between them and their supervisor?‑‑‑No, because I think that a number of staff are aware that they may apply for overtime. If they have difficulty with their supervisor, then there are opportunities for them to pursue it in different ways. The Supervisor's supervisor, human resources, we have a grievance policy, there are a range of ways that they can go about having their voice heard if it was an issue.
PN4207
Now at paragraphs 23 and 24 of your statement you say that:
PN4208
The unions proposed clause on general staff overtime would be difficult for the university to implement because sometimes work pressures mean that overtime is necessary.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4209
Can you explain why you think the union's claim isn't practicable in that circumstance?‑‑‑I'm just reading those paragraphs.
PN4210
Sure?‑‑‑What I'm trying to say and I thought it was quite clear in my response in 24 and 23, is the onus on the manager to prevent the working of additional hours. And what I'm trying to say there is that here are circumstances beyond a manager or supervisor's control, such as the student example I gave a moment ago. That doesn't mean to say that the staff are uncompensated for that time but just that the onus is on the manager to prevent the necessity for working of additional hours would be very difficult.
PN4211
So if the union was claiming a provision that prevented or would place an onus on managers to prevent people working additional hours, you think that would be unworkable?‑‑‑I think in the nature of the sorts of work that some staff do yes, I do.
PN4212
It may be some comfort to you to know that that's actually not what the union's claiming. The union's claim goes to an obligation on the university to take reasonable measures to avoid that work being done without it being compensated. So the reasonable measures can be aimed at ensuring that compensation in the form or either payment or TOIL is provided in such circumstances. Do you think that the university would have difficulty with taking such reasonable measures?‑‑‑Provided it's work that is required to be done, no, I don't.
PN4213
The University of Wollongong conducts a survey of what staff call "Your voice", is that right?‑‑‑Yes, we do.
PN4214
That was done most recently in April/May of 2015?‑‑‑Correct.
PN4215
That survey got a high response rate didn't it?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4216
One of the main concerns reported by staff in that survey was dissatisfaction with workloads wasn't it?‑‑‑I'm not sure from memory. I don't have the results in front of me.
PN4217
Can the witness be shown the document - the document Workforce Survey April/May 2015, high level results, and the document whether Matt - - -
PN4218
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Ms Gale, how long do you think you're going to be with this witness?
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4219
MS GALE: This is very close, your Honour.
PN4220
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes. Mr Pill, your questions?
PN4221
MR PILL: Ms Pugsley is likely re-examine. I wouldn't have any re-examination.
PN4222
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: You'll have some questions. Well sometimes even though they're on the same side there are questions combined. Ms Pugsley?
PN4223
MS PUGSLEY: Perhaps 10 minutes.
PN4224
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: We will finish this witness today and Ms Gale, there are a number - and Mr Pill, there are a number of witnesses who have got fixed availability only tomorrow. It's proposed that we do the fixed availability witnesses first, not the others, so at least they're finished tomorrow. The three fixed availability witnesses.
PN4225
MS PUGSLEY: Your Honour, just fore completeness, Ms Chegwidden was scheduled for today. I will check with her as to her availability for the other days.
PN4226
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: We are not going to be sitting hearing her today.
PN4227
MS PUGSLEY: No, I understand that your Honour, so she will have to come back but I'll need to check with her as to which days she might be available to come back.
PN4228
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Yes, it may have to be another day.
PN4229
MS PUGSLEY: Thank you.
PN4230
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: She will go priority if she wants to be a fixed availability witness on another occasion.
PN4231
MS PUGSLEY: Thank you.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4232
MS GALE: Ms Thomas, do you recognise these two documents?‑‑‑Thank you, yes, I do.
PN4233
I tender those your Honour.
PN4234
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: The document headed Workforce Survey April/May 2015 will be MFI23 and the document headed Weather Map, 24.
PN4235
DEPUTY PRESIDENT KOVACIC: No, 23.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: No, it is 23 because we didn't accept - MFI23 and the weather map will be MFI24.
MFI #23 DOCUMENT HEADED WORKFORCE SURVEY APRIL/MAY 2015
MFI #24 WEATHER MAP
PN4237
MS GALE: If I can take you to page - numbered page 3 of the large document, the high level results but it's the first page with the coloured graphs on it. It seems to be the fifth page counting the cover. Now as I understand this document, the high levels of satisfaction or agreement are in green, the medium levels in yellow and the low levels in red, and there's a key that indicates that at the top of the page. Now it seems that on a whole lot of measures, the University of Wollongong staff are pretty happy campers. There's a lot of positive results there, but there are a few where the results come up in red as areas where a less than a majority of staff agreed with the propositions that were put to them. You'll see about two thirds of the way down in relation to workload the 43 per cent figure there?‑‑‑Yes.
PN4238
What's your understanding or explanation of that dissatisfaction level?‑‑‑We have looked at this as you would expect and it correlates a lot with the change that's been happening in the university in recent years, which contrast strongly with the long and stable history that Wollongong has had. The workload section is made up of a number of questions in the large document. Page 11, you'll see a number of those questions including "my workload is manageable", 50 per cent of staff in the yellow zone, 50 to 80 per cent agreement. So it's a complex issue and it's one that we're working through with the staff. People also say on page 16 that they are able to meet a good balance between work and other aspects of my life, 63 per cent favourable, 4 per cent above their sector. So it is complex.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4239
So when you say above the sector, can you just explain to us where we find that information?‑‑‑Certainly. Page 16, question 118, first one in work-life balance.
PN4240
Yes?‑‑‑The first yellow column, 65 per cent favourable.
PN4241
Yes?‑‑‑And then move to the two coloured columns next to the blue columns at the right, the left-hand of that, 4 per cent favourable. And if you look at the heading - - -
PN4242
So that's the one headed - I'm sorry?‑‑‑Australia and New Zealand Universities Percentage Differential.
PN4243
That's what you're referring to when you say the sector?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN4244
The second column there, they're all end percentage difference?‑‑‑All industries so that universities plus a number of unrelated industries that the surveys conducted across. So they could be public, private, whatever.
PN4245
Then if I can take you to MFI24, which is the weather map. This just deals with the high level grouping, so not borrowing down into those individual questions. But the group of questions on each topic, and then breaks it down according to a range of different factors, such as classification level, job security and so on. Is that right?‑‑‑Classification level, yes.
PN4246
Thank you. Now only 50 per cent of staff agreed with the proposition that their workload was manageable. Does HR not see that as a significant problem?‑‑‑As I said, it's one we're working through with our staff and it may reflect things outside the university's control.
PN4247
To your knowledge, do University of Wollongong staff access the university's internet and email systems from home or on the weekend, in order to do work?‑‑‑Some would.
PN4248
Some types of work actually make that inevitable, don't they?‑‑‑Some types do.
PN4249
In fact the university provides its employees with the capacity to remotely access files and systems, doesn't it?‑‑‑I'm not sure if all staff have that access. I doubt it but a number would.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS XXN MS GALE
PN4250
A fairly significant number?‑‑‑Correct.
PN4251
The University of Wollongong employs a number of fixed term contract staff?‑‑‑Correct.
PN4252
Presumably each year quite a number of those staff have their contracts renewed?‑‑‑Correct.
PN4253
Is it the university's practice to payout all entitlements at the end of a contract when the contract's being renewed, or do you roll those entitlements over to the new employment period?‑‑‑It would depend on any gap but if it's straight away then they would be continued.
PN4254
No further questions.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Ms Pugsley.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS PUGSLEY [4.04 PM]
PN4256
MS PUGSLEY: Thank you, your Honour. Ms Thomas, in relation to the online induction, do you have a sense of how long in practice staff take to complete the online induction?‑‑‑The reports to answer they take about an hour and a half to do what they're paid for two hours to do. We've not had any reports that have been over the hour and a half, certainly not over two hours.
PN4257
What support is available to casual staff if they have questions or queries regarding the matters that come up in the induction training?‑‑‑The organisation or unit that looks after that induction is available for queries. We can see that on the policies that I've been provided with that are entitled Policy Documents at a Glance. For example, equity and diversity, that the governance in it which administers all our policy provisions is available for assistance and advice on policy. As I said before, course coordinators et cetera, are available if people have queries.
PN4258
With regard to student academic misconduct, what is the area in the university that deals with that?‑‑‑The Academic Quality Standards Section of the Deputy Vice Chancellor Academic Portfolio I believe.
PN4259
Leaving aside your casual academic staff, thinking about your ongoing and fixed term academic staff, are they required to be thoroughly familiar with all policies and procedures that Ms Gale took you to?‑‑‑Could you repeat the question please?
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS RXN MS PUGSLEY
PN4260
Ms Gale took you MFI18 I think, there was a large bundle of documents which referred to, for example, 53 documents concerning staff. If you leave aside your casual academics and think about your ongoing and fixed term academics, now much across the detail of all of those policies would you expect those staff to be?‑‑‑Again, not all policies will apply to all of them, and they're really only expected to know the main points of the relevant policies, and they would be provided with assistance with that if they're not able to understand something that would be relevant to a particular matter they were dealing with.
PN4261
With regard to the casual academic contract that you were taken to and the service level of agreement, would that be prepared by the faculty rather than HR?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN4262
You agreed that academic workloads are allocated prospectively but they can be varied. In what way and how does a variation occur?‑‑‑The variation may occur for a range of reasons. For example, someone in that discipline area may become ill or leave the university and there may need to be a readjustment of teaching, for example. It may be that the original thoughts that an academic and their supervisor had about what they would be best to concentrate on going forward might change. The academic might get a research grant, for example, and wish to concentrate mainly on research and do less teaching. So that conversation may take place as an example.
PN4263
With regard to allocation of research in academic workload models for individuals, are you aware of how research is allocated?‑‑‑I'm not particular close to that. I think there would be a discussion around research aims of that person. For example, are they aiming to apply for a large competitive grant and should they win that what might happen. Or what kinds of journal publications et cetera, might be appropriate for them at this stage of their career.
PN4264
The Academic Staff Enterprise Agreement refers to workload models and faculty workload committees, are you on any of those committees?‑‑‑No, I'm not.
PN4265
Can you recall any formal disputes that have arisen either under the professional staff agreement or the academic staff agreement with regard to workload allocation?‑‑‑No.
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS RXN MS PUGSLEY
PN4266
You indicated in relation to a question about the hours of work worked by professional staff, that they are able to make claims for payment for overtime or TOIL. How do they make such claims?‑‑‑There are forms that can be completed, so in the case of overtime a form for those hours and of course that needs to be prior approval from a supervisor. If all else fails they could email through and that would be verified with the supervisor.
PN4267
A person who is on a flexible working hours arrangement is entitled nevertheless to claim overtime in certain circumstances. That's correct, isn't it?‑‑‑That is correct, yes.
PN4268
When was the first time that you became aware that Karen Ford might have forfeited some of her flexi time?‑‑‑My first awareness was in reading her witness statement.
PN4269
Have any other staff, to the best of your knowledge, made complaints or made claims in respect of lost flexi time?‑‑‑No.
PN4270
I have no further questions, thank you.
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI: Right, you're excused, Ms Thomas, thank you?‑‑‑Thank you.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [4.11 PM]
PN4272
The Commission will adjourn until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.
ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 30 AUGUST 2016 [4.11 PM]
*** SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS RXN MS PUGSLEY
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs
EXHIBIT #S LITERATURE REVIEW ACADEMIC CASUALS AWARD REVIEW 2014 ACADEMIC CASUALS CLAIM..................................................................... PN3404
EXHIBIT #T LITERATURE REVIEW ACADEMIC WORKING HOURS CLAIM............................................................................................................................... PN3405
EXHIBIT #U LITERATURE REVIEW GENERAL STAFF WORKING HOURS AND OVERTIME CLAIM.......................................................................................... PN3406
KAREN ISABELLE FORD, AFFIRMED...................................................... PN3410
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS GALE................................................... PN3410
EXHIBIT #V WITNESS STATEMENT OF KAREN ISABELLE FORD. PN3431
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PUGSLEY................................................ PN3432
MFI #9 UNIVERSITY OF WOLLONGONG GENERAL STAFF ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT 2014........................................................................................... PN3474
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PILL......................................................... PN3533
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GALE................................................................ PN3554
THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN3572
CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY, AFFIRMED............................................... PN3577
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS GALE................................................... PN3577
EXHIBIT #W WITNESS STATEMENT OF CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY PN3589
EXHIBIT #X SUPPLEMENTARY WITNESS STATEMENT OF CLARK ALLAN HOLLOWAY....................................................................................................... PN3590
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PUGSLEY................................................ PN3595
MFI #10 OVERTIME RELATED EXPENSE CLAIM FORM.................... PN3653
MFI #11 PROFESSIONAL SERVICES STAFF TIME AND ATTENDANCE POLICY............................................................................................................................... PN3654
MFI #12 OPERATION OF FLEXIBLE HOURS OF WORK PROCEDURES PN3684
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PILL......................................................... PN3685
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GALE................................................................ PN3703
THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN3707
ANDREA BROWN, AFFIRMED..................................................................... PN3709
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR MCALPINE........................................ PN3709
EXHIBIT #Y WITNESS STATEMENT OF ANDREA BROWN................ PN3730
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PUGSLEY................................................ PN3733
MFI #13 POLICY DOCUMENT RE FLEXIBLE WORKING ARRANGEMENTS PN3775
MFI #14 EXTRACT FROM ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT....................... PN3775
MFI #15 DOCUMENT DATED 04/02/2011..................................................... PN3798
MFI #16 DOCUMENT - DETAILS FROM ANDREA BROWN 19/11/2010-03/05/2014............................................................................................................................... PN3798
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PILL......................................................... PN3799
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MCALPINE.................................................... PN3894
THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN3899
SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS, SWORN......................................................... PN3903
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS PUGSLEY........................................... PN3903
EXHIBIT #AHEIA8 WITNESS STATEMENT OF SUSAN THOMAS...... PN3911
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS GALE........................................................ PN3912
MFI #17 SESSIONAL STAFF INDUCTION SESSION 2............................. PN3982
MFI #18 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS............................................................ PN4013
THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN4021
SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS, RECALLED................................................. PN4021
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS GALE, CONTINUING........................... PN4021
MFI #19 DOCUMENT ENTITLED "POSITION DESCRIPTION, ACADEMIC POSITIONS"............................................................................................................................... PN4075
THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN4104
SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS, RECALLED................................................. PN4104
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS GALE, CONTINUING........................... PN4104
THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN4105
SUSAN BEVERLY THOMAS, RECALLED................................................. PN4105
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS GALE, CONTINUING........................... PN4105
MFI #20 DOCUMENT RE ACADEMIC WORKLOADS............................ PN4145
MFI #21 DOCUMENT ENTITLED FACULTY OF SOCIAL SCIENCES GUIDELINES FOR ACADEMIC WORKLOAD ALLOCATION.................................................. PN4152
MFI #22 FACULTY OF BUSINESS GUIDELINES FOR WORKLOAD CONSULTATION DISCUSSIONS 2016........................................................................................... PN4154
MFI #23 DOCUMENT HEADED WORKFORCE SURVEY APRIL/MAY 2015 PN4236
MFI #24 WEATHER MAP................................................................................ PN4236
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS PUGSLEY........................................................ PN4255
THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN4271