PN4618

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Good morning, everybody. Are there any matters anyone wishes to raise or, Mr Gibian, are you ready for, I think, Ms Peacock? Mr Ward.

PN4619

MR WARD: Commissioner, I appreciate that you gave a direction yesterday about the forward witness program. I'm just getting slightly concerned. We still don't know who is being called tomorrow. My understanding is we might not know until 5 o'clock today and respectfully, that is starting to become unfair.

PN4620

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: No, I take your point, Mr Ward. Mr Gibian, what's the status?

PN4621

MR GIBIAN: I'd understood that we were telling them a couple of days in advance. I think we haven't quite finalised yesterday but we can send that within the hour, as I understand it, or perhaps very shortly.

PN4622

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: So that's for tomorrow, is it?

PN4623

MR GIBIAN: Yes.

PN4624

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Is it by the end of the day that we'll get the agreed hearing plan for the remainder of the hearings?

PN4625

MR GIBIAN: Yes, in schematic form, at least. There may be some juggling of precise names, but yes.

PN4626

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Well, Mr Ward makes a reasonable point, though.

PN4627

MR GIBIAN: He does.

PN4628

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: So ta least - there should be at least two days' notice of the particular witnesses, I would have thought.

PN4629

MR GIBIAN: Yes, we're getting to the end of our witnesses in the next day and a half, I think, so there is - obviously we'll coordinate with the nurses.

PN4630

MR WARD: That's encouraging but it doesn't quite answer the question. I take it we're going to receive the witness list for tomorrow in the next hour, I'm hoping, but I also want to know when we're going to receive the witness list for Friday. I'm assuming that we'll receive the witness list for Monday at the very least on Friday so that I can deal with that over the weekend. I'm encouraged by what Mr Gibian said but he didn't - I'm not quite sure whether or not we've nailed it.

PN4631

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: No, I think that's right, Mr Gibian.

PN4632

MR GIBIAN: Yes, we'll send the schedule for the next two days at least in the next hour or so.

PN4633

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: All right, and if the same practice can be adopted in respect of the ANMF witnesses and UWU witnesses so there's at least two days' notice and as much detail as possible for the schedule by the end of today, please.

PN4634

MR GIBIAN: Of course, Commissioner. There was just one matter I was going to raise in relation to this morning. There was one witness that was not reached yesterday afternoon, Ms Sedgman, who we were going to endeavour to deal with this morning after Ms Harden on the list, in place of Mr Doherty, if that doesn't cause any undue difficulty.

PN4635

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: I'm guessing Mr Ward was prepared for that yesterday so that doesn't cause any undue difficulties for you, Mr Ward?

PN4636

MR WARD: I must confess, Commissioner, the names are becoming a blur. That's fine. I don't know if my people have said it but there is one we don't require. Have we? I can indicate that we don't require Lori Seifert. I hope I've pronounced that correctly.

PN4637

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: So she was due for 3.30 this afternoon, so she's no longer required?

PN4638

MR WARD: No.

PN4639

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: All right, that might allow - if we keep moving quickly - Ms Sedgman to not expand the hearing. All right, unless there is anything further, I believe Ms Peacock is ready to join? Good morning, Ms Peacock. Can you hear me all right?

PN4640

MS J PEACOCK: I can, yes.

PN4641

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: All right, terrific - my associate is just going to have you take the affirmation.

PN4642

THE ASSOCIATE: Ms Peacock, could you please state your full name and work address?

PN4643

MS PEACOCK: Josephine Peacock - work address is HSU, level 2 - Pitt Street, Sydney.

<JOSEPHINE PEACOCK, AFFIRMED [9.35 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GIBIAN [9.35 AM]

PN4644

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Mr Gibian.

PN4645

MR GIBIAN: Thank you, Ms Peacock. Can you hear me?‑‑‑I can, yes.

PN4646

Excellent - can you just repeat your full name for the record?‑‑‑Josephine Peacock.

PN4647

You've made a statement for the purpose of these proceedings dated 30 March 2021. At the time of the making of that statement you were employed by HammondCare. Is that correct?‑‑‑Correct, yes.

PN4648

And I think as you just indicated, you're now employed by the Health Services Union?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN4649

What is your position with the Health Services Union?‑‑‑I'm an organiser.

PN4650

When did you commence in that role?‑‑‑7 August 2021.

PN4651

Did you leave HammondCare's employment at that time?‑‑‑I did. I left on the 5th. I believe it was the 5th, yes.

PN4652

Yes, thank you. Now, as I indicated you made a statement on 30 March or dated 30 March 2021. Do you have a copy of that with you?‑‑‑I do, yes.

PN4653

Have you had an opportunity to review that statement?‑‑‑I have.

*** JOSEPHINE PEACOCK XN MR GIBIAN

PN4654

Is it true and correct to the best of your knowledge and recollection?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN4655

Commissioner, that's the statement of Ms Peacock that we wish to have part of the evidence. It's document 180 in the digital court book at page 10609.

PN4656

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: All right.

PN4657

MR GIBIAN: Ms Peacock, Mr Ward, who's on the screen I think will now ask you some questions?‑‑‑Okay.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD [9.37 AM]

PN4658

MR WARD: Ms Peacock, can you hear me okay?‑‑‑I can, yes.

PN4659

My name's Nigel Ward, Ms Peacock. I appear in these proceedings for the principal employer interests. Do you have your statement in front of you?‑‑‑I do, yes, yes.

PN4660

Can I just ask you to go to paragraph 1(d) to begin with. Could you just go to that?‑‑‑Yes. Paragraph 1.

PN4661

My apologies, sorry. I should my pen off the page, I apologise. 2(d), sorry, 2(d)?‑‑‑2(d), yes, okay.

PN4662

You say there that from 2019 you were the volunteer coordinator?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4663

Do I take it that that was a management job organising the - organising and coordinating everything to do with volunteers?‑‑‑Yes, I did. I coordinated. So, it was a paid position and I coordinated the volunteers under my - in the section that I looked after.

PN4664

How many volunteers did you look after?‑‑‑It starts out at about 60 but when COVID hit it fell to well, nothing at one stage, but then it kind of levelled out at about 20, 30 volunteers. It wasn't - it dramatically reduced.

*** JOSEPHINE PEACOCK XXN MR WARD

PN4665

And I take it you were involved in both sort of recruiting volunteers and organising what they did?‑‑‑So, yes, we did all - I did all the recruitment, I did all the training, I did the liaising with the care staff and the managers in the different cottages and I did the ongoing support for the volunteers.

PN4666

The job before that is described as diversional therapy and volunteer manager?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4667

Was the volunteer part the same as the job you did from 2019 or was that different?‑‑‑No, it was very similar. It was very, very similar, yes.

PN4668

Can you - the diversional therapy manager part, can you tell me what you were responsible for in that part of your job?‑‑‑So, in that part of the job I was responsible for a team of recreational activities officers, so lifestyle staff, and we had around about 15 recreational activities officers on the team. They didn't do work full-time obviously, they were part-time but on any one day I think we had about eight recreational activities officers employed. So, across the two sites, so I looked after a site at Burradoo and the site at Moss Farm. So, it was really managing the actual - the recreational activities officers and also making sure that the whole diversional therapy program was actually working. Was in place, was being facilitated, was being planned, evaluated and met all the requirements, you know, the accreditation standard requirements and - yes.

PN4669

And before that you were a recreational officer, is that right? Or were you a personal care worker?‑‑‑No, before that I was a recreational activities officer, so that was at the same - at the same facility, with the same organisation and then prior to that I was a care worker.

PN4670

Am I right in saying you were promoted to being a recreational activity officer into the diversional - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4671

Yes, okay?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN4672

Can I take you to paragraph 4. I'll withdraw that. Can I just ask you to go to paragraph 3. You're obviously highly qualified, I'm not trying to be facetious here. I'm a little overwhelmed, you're obviously highly qualified. Am I right to say that you started life wanting to be a teacher?‑‑‑I don't know that I actually ever really wanted to be a teacher. It's a little bit complicated. I kind of came out from the UK and I wanted a course to do and I wanted a purpose so I did a teaching - I did a Diploma in Education, so that was my focus for a year. I suppose I kind of wanted to teach but I wasn't passionate about it at the time, and I kind of fell into aged care, I have to say, and aged care kind of grabbed hold of me and I stayed for a very long time.

*** JOSEPHINE PEACOCK XXN MR WARD

PN4673

Am I right, you don't have a Cert IV in Leisure?‑‑‑No, I don't have a Cert IV, no.

PN4674

Am I right - no, is that because you've got the Bachelor of Health Science, Leisure and Health, which is obviously a much higher qualification?‑‑‑Correct. Yes, correct.

PN4675

Can I just - do all your recreational activity officers have Certificate IVs in Leisure?‑‑‑At one stage they all did. At one stage. And then as staff turned over, as - yes, then there were periods when, you know, towards the end not everybody had the Cert IV Leisure and Health. And I think there were also issues with, you know, paying for the course who, unless they could get funding for it, there were issues with yes, paying for the course. Who was going to pay for the course. And they couldn't afford themselves to pay for the course.

PN4676

Do you think that a recreational activities officer should have a Certificate IV in Leisure?‑‑‑I think it's a good idea. Having said that, you know, I had some fantastic recreational activities officers who just had incredible skill and an ability to learn independently, and they were able to pick up the job really, really well. So, yes, it is a good idea. I'm, you know, I'm a firm believer in education but it's not - you know, it's not absolutely essential. There are people who can do the job really well without qualification.

PN4677

When you say there are people - - -?‑‑‑Like, they're very special people. Not everybody can do it.

PN4678

I was just going to ask that. When you say there are people - - -?‑‑‑(Indistinct).

PN4679

- - - who can do it well, they're special people. What makes them special?‑‑‑Well, a lot of them who didn't have the qualification who worked with me had other qualifications. So, I had a number of teachers over the years who had decided - so, they had - they had training and teaching is in a way very similar, because it's about assessing, it's about facilitating, it's about evaluating. So, you know, there are similar components. So, they had those skills, they had training, although it wasn't a Cert IV in Leisure and Health they certainly had training in something that was very relevant to the position. So, yes, they just had - and we had, you know, I think a lot of the staff had bachelor level education, so they had under graduate degrees. They weren't - you know, they were educated, they did have, yes, post school qualifications.

*** JOSEPHINE PEACOCK XXN MR WARD

PN4680

Paragraph 4 you say you've done your - you've done a competency in palliative care. I just wanted to check if you're understanding is the same as mine. My understanding is that that THCPAL001, my understanding that's an elective in the Certificate III. Is that your understanding?‑‑‑Yes, I think so, yes.

PN4681

But you did that - you did that separately as a separate - - -?‑‑‑I did it, I did it as an individual unit, yes. I just did it as a separate module in the workplace. So, a number of us were put through that training because it was just very relevant, but we didn't need to do the whole course.

PN4682

No, that's fine. And you've done the Administer and Monitor Medications, which is HLTHPS007. Am I right that that's, I think, somebody's already said this in the case but my understanding is that's the Cert IV - that's a Cert IV elective. Is that your understanding?‑‑‑Yes, I think so, yes. I think.

PN4683

That's okay. Well, I'm putting it to you that it is, you don't disagree with me, do you?‑‑‑I don't disagree, no.

PN4684

And then you talk about some internal training which you've done, a complaints management workshop. I take it that was something the employer ran?‑‑‑I think it was an external group that ran it, because I remember going to Sydney for that. So it was an external group, but I can't remember the name of the company that ran it.

PN4685

When you say it's a workshop, was it like a day workshop?‑‑‑A day workshop.

PN4686

You then talk about pastoral care spirituality. Was that a training program?‑‑‑That was actually in‑house training. So we had a chaplain in‑house, and he used to run quite a bit of training.

PN4687

What would the training be on?‑‑‑Well, pastoral – you know, different components of spiritual care. Yes, it was just – they were basically workshops; you know, two/three‑hour workshops, spread over, you know, a number of years.

*** JOSEPHINE PEACOCK XXN MR WARD

PN4688

Can I take you then on to paragraph 27? In paragraph 27 you identify a long list of potential activities that are recreational activities an officer would be involved in. I'm right in saying this, aren't I, that the recreational activity officer will be designing the activity; that's correct, isn't it? It wouldn't be you who's designing it; it would be the recreational - - -?‑‑‑No, not necessarily. If there were issues around facilitating activity for a resident that had some complex health need, for instance, there might be some discussions, some brainstorming about how we're going to make it happen, so that they are enabled to join in the activity. We just did not want anybody who wanted to do it excluded because of – it might have been – I can give an example, say, carpet bowls.

PN4689

Yes?‑‑‑They're in a wheelchair and they have some mobility issues. So we would brainstorm ideas around being able to enable that person to join in. It was really important that if they wanted to, we would make it happen. So it might be that we have different equipment, or we get the maintenance officers to do something to the equipment to change it to make it work for that individual resident, or we might look at a special wheelchair that they could use so that they were still able to participate in bowls; you know, just changing some of the resources I suppose to make it happen.

PN4690

Can I just put that back to you, just to make sure I've understood what you're saying, in terms of the actual design of activities, certain activities you might actually be brainstorming or mentoring your recreational activity officer with sort of ways of going about it?‑‑‑Mm.

PN4691

When the activity is designed it's not designed to exclude people with certain comorbidity or certain acuity levels. You actually will tailor a particular activity so people of different acuity can participate in it?‑‑‑Absolutely. Absolutely, yes.

PN4692

Can I take you to 31, if that's okay? Have you got that in front of you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4693

You say, 'When a new resident was admitted, the RAOs and myself would complete a social and lifestyle profile assessment.' Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4694

If you then go over the page to paragraph 34, you say:

PN4695

Once the social and lifestyle profile assessment for a resident was completed, an activities care plan would be written with input and feedback from the resident and/or the family.

PN4696

I'm not trying to be clever here; I'm just trying to clarify. I'm right, aren't I, that that assessment and that plan is separate to the general care plan the registered nurse puts together or in your organisation they put together?‑‑‑So we would conduct the leisure and lifestyle – we would obtain the leisure and lifestyle information, and we used an electronic documentation system called Leecare, and it would all be uploaded to Leecare, and it was separate to the nursing care plan, except that when it was uploaded it was visible for all to see, so that all staff then had access to that information, so that carers could also see that information as well.

PN4697

That's on your online system, is it?‑‑‑Yes.

*** JOSEPHINE PEACOCK XXN MR WARD

PN4698

I missed what it was called. What was it called?‑‑‑Leecare.

PN4699

Leecare?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4700

There's been so many names?‑‑‑Yes. I mean it changed over time. When I first, you know – in the beginning it was all paper‑based, and then it changed over time, and at my time, when I left the program we were using was called Leecare. But there are lots of different programs.

PN4701

Am I right that let's say you've just done your lawn bowls activity, which you just described, am I right that at the end of that activity your recreational activity officer will write progress notes on what they've observed, or not?‑‑‑Not necessarily progress notes. We have attendance records that we would complete after each activity, but progress notes would only be completed if there was something unusual. So if we had observed something unusual or extraordinary we would document that, but if it was kind of business as usual, there was no need to write a progress note.

PN4702

So if I usually participated with gusto in the activity and today I was withdrawn, that would be an example of what you - - -?‑‑‑That would be an example of – yes. I mean, that's something unusual, and you'd think, you know, what's going on. So RAOs were constantly – you know, all lifestyle staff were always observing everybody doing activities. They weren't just running the activity. They were also observing what was going on with each individual and then documenting. We would often pick up on things that were not right within individuals.

PN4703

If you observe what I've just described, where would you record that?‑‑‑So if – you know, say it was an unusual behaviour, it might be on a behaviour chart, it might be in a progress note. If something actually happened, say somebody collapsed, we'd fill in an incident form. So it would just depend on what it was as to where we would document. We would probably – we would also I should say, not probably, but we would also mention it to the RN on duty. So it would be documented, but we would also go and actually see the RN and say, you know, we've documented this, but this is what's going on, this is what we have observed.

PN4704

At paragraph 37 you talk about 'experienced RAOs.' What do I have to do to become experienced? How (indistinct) - - -?‑‑‑I think - - -

*** JOSEPHINE PEACOCK XXN MR WARD

PN4705

- - - (indistinct)?‑‑‑Over time people gain – so if you've come in with no – you've never done RAO work before, then it's going to be hard to know how to put a care plan together. It comes with a lot of practice I suppose is what I'm trying to say. The more you do them, the easier they get. Yes, so somebody who had been doing it for – some were really good and they could do it after a few months or get the gist of it really quickly, and others would struggle. So it just depended on each staff member as to how quickly they picked it up. Some - - -

PN4706

Are you suggesting that some people might find it's not for them and not succeed, when you say some people struggle?‑‑‑Well I never had anybody not succeed, I have to say. All the staff that I worked with always succeeded in the end. I can think of one who really didn't like documenting at all, but in the end she ended up being a very good – when she understood the reason behind it and was not afraid of spelling mistakes – I think she was scared of – she was really scared of documenting, because her English wasn't – you know, wasn't her strong point, but once she got over that and I – you know, the spelling doesn't matter – she ended up being a very good documenter.

PN4707

Can I just ask you to go down on this – further down in your statement you talk about, in 40 you say, 'Once a care plan has been completed for a resident we would print a copy' - you describe that, and then at 42 you say, 'Care plans were reviewed every three months.' That's the leisure care plan we talked about earlier, is it?‑‑‑Yes. So the ones that we were responsible for, yes.

PN4708

Was it your job to do that review, as the diversion or volunteer manager, or - - -?‑‑‑No. So the activity staff would do that. The RAOs would do it. They would bounce back to me if they had concerns over anything; with anything or they weren't sure about something, they would bounce back to me, but generally they were doing it themselves.

PN4709

With the other care plan - I think you called it the nursing plan, my understanding ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4710

‑ ‑ ‑ is that the registered nurse is in charge of that. In this case it's the REO or you who's in charge of that?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, correct.

PN4711

Can I ask you to go to paragraph 61?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4712

You talk here about you call this 'my managerial responsibilities'. Are you talking there about your role as the volunteer coordinator? Which role were you talking about?‑‑‑I'm talking about - no, this one was as the diversional therapy manager.

*** JOSEPHINE PEACOCK XXN MR WARD

PN4713

Okay. And just lastly, if I can, in the role of - in the 2019 role, the volunteer coordinator role, who did you work for? Who did you report to?‑‑‑So, I worked for HammondCare and I reported through to the - what was her title - the volunteer business partner, I think she was called. So, I had - yes, I had somebody above me working in the volunteer section who I reported to. Her name - her titled changed while I was there. To begin with she was the volunteer business partner, and then it changed to something else, and I can't remember what it was.

PN4714

Am I right in saying then that there were a number of volunteer coordinators reporting in to her?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4715

Okay?‑‑‑Yes, there were.

PN4716

In the job you had before that, the diversional therapy and volunteer manager, who did you report into then?‑‑‑I reported to the CEO.

PN4717

The CEO?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4718

Of HammondCare?‑‑‑No, no, this was Harbison.

PN4719

Sorry. Sorry, I'm confused ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Different, yes, organisation.

PN4720

‑ ‑ ‑with which employer. So, the CEO of Harbison, as in the person who runs the whole of their operation?‑‑‑Yes. Yes. At the end, right towards the end, it changed and I reported through to - I can't remember her name. To the person underneath the CEO, but that was just in the last few months. They recruited to ‑ ‑ ‑

PN4721

At Harbison?‑‑‑This is at Harbison. They recruited two new managers. They create two new management positions, and I reported to one of those managers, but that was - yes, most of the time, except for the last few months I reported to the CEO.

PN4722

Just a moment. Thank you, Ms Peacock. No further questions, Commissioner.

PN4723

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Thank you. Mr McKenna, a shake of the head? All right.

PN4724

Mr Gibian, any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GIBIAN [9.59 AM]

*** JOSEPHINE PEACOCK RXN MR GIBIAN

PN4725

MR GIBIAN: I think there were just two matters.

PN4726

Ms Peacock, can you hear me again?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN4727

Excellent. You were asked some questions about the type of notes or records that are kept by the recreational activities officers after or during the completion of a particular activity, and you referred to completing attendance records, but then making progress notes to the extent that there was something unusual or out of the ordinary that was observed. And I think you gave one - or I think Mr Ward asked you about one example of someone who participates with gusto usually and doesn't on one occasion. Are there any other examples of what types of observations might commonly come up in those recreation activities?‑‑‑If somebody was more confused than usual. You know, if they could normally follow instruction, and on a particular day they couldn't follow instruction, if they were getting up and going to the toilet much more than usual. If they didn't turn up to the activity when they would normally turn up to the activity unescorted, and, you know, we had to go and get them, and that was unusual. Maybe not eating or drinking when they would normally eat or drink. You know, saying - just, you know, changes in cognition, if they were not able to follow instruction like they normally could, changes and confusion.

PN4728

Yes. Thank you. And just so I - perhaps I just missed it, but those notes, where were those notes, that is, in the event that there was something unusual or something out of the ordinary, where were those notes recorded or where ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑They were kept on the electronic documentation system, Leecare.

PN4729

And what happened to that record in the sense who did it go to and what use was made of that type of information that is recorded?‑‑‑If it was a - say, it was something, you know, really out of the ordinary and we'd filled out an incident report, that would go to - I think, the facility manager would get a notification or the RN in charge would get a notification. If it was just a progress note, we were able to elect in that progress note to notify somebody. So, we would notify the team leader, we would click on a link to notify the team leader, or the RN. So, it just depended on what it was as to who we notified.

PN4730

And, sorry, in that answer you mentioned an incident report. Is that a separate type of documentation to the progress notes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4731

And, sorry, there was just one last question. Mr Ward asked you about who you reported to in your position as a volunteer coordinator with HammondCare, and you referred to a person whose position title changed over time, but at least at one point in time was referred to as the volunteer business partner?‑‑‑Correct.

*** JOSEPHINE PEACOCK RXN MR GIBIAN

PN4732

Was that a person, or did that person's responsibilities extend across a number of different HammondCare facilities, or was it limited to a particular facility?‑‑‑No, that extended across a number of facilities.

PN4733

Thank you, Ms Peacock. That was the re-examination, Commissioner.

PN4734

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Thank you for your evidence, Ms Peacock. You're now excused and free to go?‑‑‑Okay.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.03 AM]

PN4735

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: I think we have Ms Platt next. Is she ready?

PN4736

MR GIBIAN: I think she's dialling in at the moment, Ms Platt is. I'm sorry, Commissioner, we had understood she was logging in. We're just making inquiries as to whether there's some difficulty.

PN4737

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Ms Harden is in the waiting room, as I understand it, so if there's a difficulty perhaps we might proceed with Ms Harden.

PN4738

MR GIBIAN: I understand Ms Platt is joining now, so maybe if we could just wait for 30 seconds and see if we can proceed in that way.

PN4739

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Ms Platt, can you hear me all right?

PN4740

MS H PLATT: Yes.

PN4741

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: All right, I'm Commissioner O'Neill. My associate is just going to have you take the affirmation.

PN4742

MS PLATT: Okay.

PN4743

THE ASSOCIATE: Ms Platt, can you please state your full name and work address?

PN4744

MS PLATT: Helen (indistinct), 13 - I think it's 13 Mavis Road, Rooty Hill.

*** JOSEPHINE PEACOCK RXN MR GIBIAN

<HELEN PLATT, AFFIRMED [10.06 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GIBIAN [10.06 AM]

PN4745

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Mr Gibian.

PN4746

MR GIBIAN: Thank you. Ms Platt, my name is Mark Gibian. You can hear me, can you?‑‑‑I can.

PN4747

Can I just ask you to repeat your full name for the record?‑‑‑Helen Lorraine Platt.

PN4748

You're a care supervisor employed by Anglicare at the Melva McDonald Lodge facility in Rooty Hill?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4749

There is one statement that you've made that's been filed in the proceedings dated 29 March 2021, which runs to some 107 paragraphs over nine pages. Do you have a copy of that with you?‑‑‑I do.

PN4750

Have you had an opportunity to read that statement through?‑‑‑I have.

PN4751

Is it true and correct to the best of your knowledge and recollection?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN4752

Thank you. That is the witness statement of Ms Platt that we seek to have included in the evidence. It's document 147 in the digital court book, commencing at page 10139, for the record. Ms Platt, on another box on the screen you should see Mr Ward's name. Mr Ward is now going to ask you some questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD [10.09 AM]

PN4753

MR WARD: Sorry, Commissioner - I'm having trouble with the visual. Is Ms Platt in the box that says, 'Marion Jennings'?

PN4754

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Yes.

*** HELEN PLATT XN MR GIBIAN

*** HELEN PLATT XXN MR WARD

PN4755

MR WARD: Sorry, Ms Platt. My apologies. Ms Platt, can you hear me okay?‑‑‑I'm sorry, Mr Ward, what was that?

PN4756

Can you hear me?‑‑‑I can, yes.

PN4757

Okay. Ms Platt, my name is Nigel Ward. I appear in these proceedings for the employer interests, if I can just ask you some questions. You say in your statement that you have the role of care supervisor. Can you tell me who you supervise?‑‑‑The care staff.

PN4758

How many care staff do you supervise?‑‑‑I'm the day shift care supervisor so we've got roughly 25 to 30 care staff on day shift.

PN4759

So you supervise all those?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4760

Do they directly report to you or do they report to somebody else first?‑‑‑They directly report to me and then I would go to protocol to the RN and the RN would go to management.

PN4761

Does that mean that - to put it simply - your boss is the RN?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4762

I don't know if I've got this right: am I right in saying that you primarily are involved in the dementia ward, or have a got that wrong?‑‑‑Previously, Mr Ward, at another facility for Anglicare, I worked nine years in dementia-specific unit at Castle Hill.

PN4763

Okay, so in your supervisory role, looking after 25 care workers, are you doing much hands-on care work now?‑‑‑Absolutely, Mr Ward - it's predominantly 95 per cent now of care work and, yes, so I'm on the floor most of the day now.

PN4764

Do you have your statement in front of you?‑‑‑I do, Mr Ward, yes.

PN4765

I wonder if I could ask you to turn to paragraph 11. Could you do that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4766

You say in paragraph 11 that you got the Certificate III in Aged Care in 2010 and it says it was completed as a fast-track course. Is that just the name of the person who offered the course or is that a particular type of course?‑‑‑No, it's the company that offered the course.

*** HELEN PLATT XXN MR WARD

PN4767

Then you did your Certificate IV. Did you do your Certificate IV because Anglicare asked or did you do it for some other reason?‑‑‑It was a scholarship so it was, you know, an application for scholarship and so Anglicare paid and supported me throughout that Cert IV.

PN4768

You say in 14: 'I completed an Alzheimer's Australia course in dementia care in 2014'. Can you just describe for me what that course involved?‑‑‑I think it was a two or three-day course, on site course, and they had external educators come in and you were trained in Alzheimer's with a certificate at the end.

PN4769

Was it was specific to Alzheimer's or was it about dementia generally?‑‑‑About dementia generally, but - yes.

PN4770

Then you say in 15: 'I am also a dementia-care specialist'. Can you just help me understand what you mean by you're a dementia-care specialist?‑‑‑Okay - dementia-care specialist is somebody who has had formal training in dementia care to, you know, control or divert behaviours, you know how to care for somebody with dementia in a more in-depth way, rather than just come in and do - we do have personal carers in the dementia unit. But then we have a dementia-care specialist that - so if a behaviour arises they're trained on how to divert and to control that situation.

PN4771

Am I right in saying then that you're designated as a dementia-care specialist as well?‑‑‑Not at present - I'm trained as a dementia-care specialist.

PN4772

Okay, and that arises from the Alzheimer's Australia course, does it?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4773

Can I ask some questions about the RN, if I can? I take it that - I think you talk in your statement about what happens when there is a fall. My understanding is that the protocol would be to contact the registered nurse. Is that correct?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN4774

The registered nurse would determine what should happen with the resident who's had the fall?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct - we're not qualified to determine hips or joints or skin tears. We're not qualified for that.

PN4775

Could I take you to paragraph 28? In paragraph 28, 29 and 30 you talk about medications?‑‑‑Yes.

*** HELEN PLATT XXN MR WARD

PN4776

Had you done any particular training course before you were involved in medications?‑‑‑Yes, I did. Everybody who is medication-competent goes through a training with our educator on site. You are deemed competent to dispense medication. It's written and also verbal.

PN4777

Is that an inhouse course?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN4778

And does it involve sort of the classroom or online training?‑‑‑No, it's a one-on-one training.

PN4779

It's on the job?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4780

Is the person training you the RN?‑‑‑No, she's an educator.

PN4781

Sorry, did you say 'nurse educator'?‑‑‑No, she's just the educator.

PN4782

Do you know what qualifications she holds?‑‑‑As far as I know, Mr Ward, she's just a trainer, a workplace trainer.

PN4783

Okay, that's all right. In terms of being assessed as competent, was that done by the trainer or was that done by a registered nurse?‑‑‑That was done by the workplace trainer.

PN4784

How long was the on-the-job training for?‑‑‑I think you do - you know, you do the one-day core. It's not even one day, it's - you know, you'll sit down and she'll run through the criteria of medication and then you'll sit down and do a written exam on, you know, how to administer medication. And then she will come and she will watch you to do that medication dispensing and then you're deemed competent. It probably runs over three days sporadically.

PN4785

Okay. I understand, I understand. Am I right that this allows you to administer Schedule 4 medications?‑‑‑That's correct, and topical, and topical.

PN4786

Topical would be - - -?‑‑‑Skin.

PN4787

- - - creams, ointment?‑‑‑Cream, yes. Cream, ointment, yes. Eye drops.

PN4788

Eye drops. Schedule 8 medications are done by the registered nurse?‑‑‑That's correct. They'll be co-signed. We co-sign. So, you know, they need to have somebody who co-signs on that Schedule 8 medication, there's two witnesses to that and so we do actually co-sign for that. The RN - - -

*** HELEN PLATT XXN MR WARD

PN4789

So, if a nurse - - -?‑‑‑Sorry, Mr Ward.

PN4790

That's okay. Sorry, I wasn't trying to interrupt you, I'm sorry. This is a lot easier if we're in person. It's a lot of (indistinct). If the registered nurse was doing their Schedule 8 round, somebody has to attend with them to confirm what they're given. Is that right?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4791

Yes. And you would sometimes play that role?‑‑‑I regularly play that role.

PN4792

You play that role regularly. And in relation to the Schedule 4 medications, can I just take you through my understanding of how that works and you tell me if yours is different. The Schedule 4 medications will most likely be kept in a locked cupboard?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4793

Do you have the key?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN4794

If you were going to do a round, you'd go to the cupboard. I assume that the tablets are in Webster-paks or - - -?‑‑‑They're actually - they're actually kept in a steel trolley, a locked steel trolley and so I have the key to that trolley.

PN4795

Okay. So it's actually a locked trolley and the trolley's already pre setup is it?‑‑‑That's correct, yes. With the blister packs in and eye drops and, yes.

PN4796

Already to go. I take it that - let's assume that I'm your first resident. You come to me. Am I right that you have to check that what's in the blister pack is right. My understanding is that you might do that in one of two ways. You might check the name of the tablets but you also might look at a - like a picture chart to actually visually check them. Do you do either of those?‑‑‑Yes, there's several things that you need to do to check. We visual, we check that the name matches the person. We check the photo matches the person. We check that the amount of tablets in that blister pack, we count every blister pack that matches my little computer screen that I've got, that the doctor and the pharmacy have inputted into that I should have, say, six tablets for you and I would count six tablets. I would check yes, you're Mr Ward, I'd ask you are you Mr Ward, and you would say yes, and it's quite a little bit of a process but you have to be very careful with the medication.

*** HELEN PLATT XXN MR WARD

PN4797

Yes. No, I understand that. In terms of knowing how to administer it, whether or not they can - I could swallow it whole or it needs to be in a custard or a jam, is that on the Webster-pak itself or is that in your care plan notes for me?‑‑‑That's right. It's in my - it's not on the Webster-pak, it's in my care plan notes, but that also can change, Mr Ward, so we have to be observant with every resident. So, for example, as you get older, you know, you have your ability to be able to swallow decreases, so I have to watch that you take them all one at a time and I usually do that on a spoon and that you're swallowing okay. And if I feel that you're having a bit of difficulty then I would notify the RN and we may need to get a speech pathologist involved, and then it goes down another line. But I'm the eyes and ears and the first - - -

PN4798

You're the person observing that that's going properly, aren't you?‑‑‑That's right.

PN4799

Yes. And I take it that after I - hopefully I've swallowed my medicine, I take it that you then record what I've taken?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4800

And then in this case do you record it on a tablet or is it recorded on a printed - - -?‑‑‑It's recorded on a tablet. It's recorded on a tablet and then say, Mr Ward, you say to me I don't want that Panadol, that's also recorded as a refused and you know notified the RN again that that tablet's been refused.

PN4801

If you notice something's amiss, was meant to be a red tablet but it's a blue tablet, do you contact the RN?‑‑‑Which happens. Absolutely, I would pack all my blister packs up, put them back in the trolley, lock the trolley, call the RN over and she would individually go through those. And if that's the case we then - you know, we would take tablets from another day or the RN would take tablets from another day and then we're re-order that from the pharmacy and not administer that particular blister pack.

PN4802

When you say 'we would re-order it from the pharmacy' - - -?‑‑‑I meant - I meant the RN. The RN would order from the pharmacy. She does all the medication orders, so if I'm running low on a particular cream or eye drops or eye drops are coming - almost out of date, I would notify the RN and she would order, you know, through to the pharmacy for whatever medication I need. We don't order - we don't order the medication.

PN4803

No, that's fine. That was my understanding, yes. Can I take you to paragraph 37. You talk there about residents' families. I'm not being clever when I ask this but you say, 'We liaise with residents' families'. Is that just your way of identifying that when a resident's family is at the facility, you're going to be engaging with them and discussing how the resident's going?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct, and also Mr Ward from time to time, we may ring the residents' families on behalf of the resident. So we do liaise, you know, on-site and also off site with families (indistinct).

*** HELEN PLATT XXN MR WARD

PN4804

When might you as the care supervisor ring them?‑‑‑Okay. For - can I give you an example?

PN4805

Please do, please do?‑‑‑We had a resident that was non-ambulant. It was in the middle of COVID lockdown and he was quite distressed and upset that he hadn't seen his family. He didn't have a mobile phone so I rang, you know, FaceTime to his family and we put his family on and he was able to see their face and talk to them. So, you know, and it was a really, really love time to watch how happy that made him, and the family also. So, we do do things if families - residents are short of clothing, we will ring families and just gently, you know, ask them could they bring in, you know, some more singlets or pants or whatever it might be. Mr Ward, we do liaise on the families quite regular.

PN4806

When you use the word liaise, that's what you're talking about?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4807

No, no, I was just trying to clarity that, that's all. Now, at your facility, I just want to talk a little bit about care plans if I can at your facility. My understanding is that when the resident is being admitted, the registered nurse will meet with the resident, the registered nurse will meet with the family and it's the registered nurse's job to write the initial care plan. Is that how it works with you?‑‑‑Okay. It is the - it is the RN's job to write the initial care plan but on many occasions when a resident first comes into the facility, they've been admitted, it's my job to go and sit with her and questions I may ask is when would you like to have your shower, you know, what foods do you like to eat. You know, and get a little bit of a background, like what mobility aid they would be using for short and long distance. You know, basic questions that I would sit and ask the resident and talk to the families, you know, so the care supervisor and the carers do that with the families when they first come in. But RNs, yes, they do do the care plans.

PN4808

Let's say I'm the RN and I've written the care plan for somebody, I take it that when that person's admitted as the RN do I talk you through that care plan or do I just send it to you to read?‑‑‑We have care plans that - or everybody's care plan is in their individual folders and they're also on the computer, so we can look up their care plan at any time, you know, that we're not sure about something.

PN4809

Obviously, care workers will be making those observations you and talked about with residents, they'll be writing their progress notes up. I take it that the RN's got access to all of that, and that could be one way the RN decides to change the care plan. That could be one way, couldn't it?‑‑‑Sorry, I don't understand your question as to - what was that?

*** HELEN PLATT XXN MR WARD

PN4810

The care workers - let's say that I'm your resident and you're with me today as a care worker, you'll obviously be making observations of me today, won't you?‑‑‑Absolutely, yes.

PN4811

You might be taking my blood pressure and a variety of other things?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN4812

And I assume that you record all that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4813

And let's say that you notice that I had a large bruise I didn't have yesterday, you'd record that?‑‑‑And report it.

PN4814

Okay. So you'd report that sort of thing straightaway, would you?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, straight to the ‑ ‑ ‑

PN4815

And that would be reported to the RN?‑‑‑Yes, because that's a reportable incident.

PN4816

That might motivate the RN to change the care plan?‑‑‑I'm not sure if a bruise would motivate the RN to change a care plan. You know, that's - yes, what's another example we could use? Like, for example, Mrs Smith wants to have an afternoon shower now instead of a morning shower, and she's told me that that's what she wants, I would then report that to the RN, and we need to change her care plan to show that, you know, that's when she - her preference is of a shower, for example, yes. Yes.

PN4817

That ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Bruising ‑ ‑ ‑

PN4818

Well, your example is much better than mine. Yes, much better than mine. I just want to understand a little bit around the kitchen and food. It seems every facility does it slightly differently. Am I right in saying that you do the fluid rounds - sorry, I'll withdraw that. Am I right in saying that the care workers that you supervise do the fluid rounds, that is, they go, they put jugs on trolleys and do the fluid founds; is that right?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4819

And has that always been the case at your facility, or did they use to have kitchen hands who did that?‑‑‑Yes, at the beginning Melva McDonald's only been opened for three years, so when I first came here it was a relatively new facility, and so they didn't have that in place at the beginning, and that's been in place now for around about 18 months to two years, that fluid round has been in place. Sorry, are you talking about the fluid rounds, or the water jugs?

*** HELEN PLATT XXN MR WARD

PN4820

I see. I was talking about the water jugs to begin with?‑‑‑Okay. So, the water jugs are different from the fluid rounds. So, fluid rounds have always been in place. That's done at 10.30 every morning where every resident we take a trolley around and offer them tea, coffee, milo, whatever their preference would be, with a nice cake. Now, the water jugs, that hasn't always been in play. That's been maybe the last two years they bought that out where we refresh the water jugs every 24 hours.

PN4821

But what I'm asking is that it's the care worker in your facility who does the morning tea round, as it were, it's not a kitchen hand?‑‑‑Yes. No, that's correct, it's the care staff.

PN4822

Care staff, the care staff, yes. Can I ask you to go to paragraph 55?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4823

I think here you're talking about lunch orders. I take it you have a set menu?‑‑‑No, set menu for that day. Yes, that's correct.

PN4824

And I think, if I read your evidence right, there's an option on the set menu. Sort of, like, 'Do you want the fish or do you want the beef?' is that - have I understood that ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑That's correct, Mr Ward, yes.

PN4825

When you say the orders are usually in by about 12.15, who takes the order?‑‑‑Care staff.

PN4826

Care staff in your facility, okay. And in terms of the actual dining process, I take it there's a central dining room?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4827

And I would assume that some residents eat in the dining room and some residents eat in their rooms, do they?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN4828

In terms of how the food gets from the kitchen to the dining room, who does that?‑‑‑The care staff.

PN4829

The care staff?‑‑‑Yes. So, you mean when it goes from the kitchen to serving to the residents, is that what you mean?

PN4830

Yes?‑‑‑Yes, care staff. Care staff does that, yes.

*** HELEN PLATT XXN MR WARD

PN4831

I assume that I'm right that if a resident has difficulty eating, it's the care staff person who attends to that?‑‑‑That's right, correct. We also serve their coffee, tea, fluids that they want during their meals. We take the plates away from the table, and clean the tables, and we do all that sort of stuff.

PN4832

Can I take you to paragraph 69? I'll try not to be too much longer with you. Bear with me. If I could just take you to paragraph 69, it says in paragraph 69:

PN4833

Sometimes I have to identify an appropriate alternative medication we can crush. I then get it signed off by the doctor.

PN4834

I'm just trying to understand, does that mean that you have the authority to say a resident shouldn't have this particular tablet, but should have a different tablet?‑‑‑No, that's not what I - no, I don't have the qualifications to determine that. The RN or the doctor has the qualifications to determine that.

PN4835

Okay. So if ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑I can identify, like, for example, a Panadol Osteo, the resident was having difficulty, you know, swallowing, and, you know, I can identify the medication, but it's the RN and the doctor that have the right make further determinations on that medication.

PN4836

You would make - let's say you observed that I was struggling to swallow the Panadol Osteo, you would tell the RN that, and the RN and the doctor would decide what the alternative was?‑‑‑Absolutely, Mr Ward. Yes, that's correct.

PN4837

Now, at paragraph 72 you talk about charting. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4838

Is all this done on your iPad or is some of this separate?‑‑‑We have two ways that we can do this, we can do this on our iPad and we can also do it on the computer that's in the clinic.

PN4839

Do you personally have a preference for which one to use?‑‑‑The computer, it's much quicker.

PN4840

You're clearly not a millennial?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4841

Just bear with me if you would. Thank you very much for your evidence. No further questions?‑‑‑Thank you.

*** HELEN PLATT XXN MR WARD

PN4842

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Thank you. Mr McKenna, instead of asking you to shake your head every time, we'll do the default as a shake, and you can stand if there's any witness that you wish to ask any questions of. Mr Gibian, any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GIBIAN [10.34 AM]

PN4843

MR GIBIAN: I think just two matters.

PN4844

Ms Platt, you can hear me again?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN4845

Mr Ward asked you some questions about dementia care and specifically whether you were a dementia care specialist?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4846

Or recognised - designated, I should say, as a dementia care specialist, and I think you said not in your current position, which, as I understand, is the care supervisor position, which you've held since 2019; is that right?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4847

And in answer to that question you also said - or in answer to an earlier question you also said that you'd previously worked specifically with residents with dementia at the previous facility you'd worked at. What was that facility?‑‑‑It was Anglicare Castle Hill.

PN4848

And were you designated as a dementia care specialist at that location?‑‑‑That's correct. That's what I was being paid as.

PN4849

The second matter was that you were asked some questions about the preparation of a care plan when a resident first enters or is admitted to the facility, and you indicated that you and the RN and, as I understood it, carers would sit with the resident and family to ask relevant questions for the purposes of completing the care plan. I just wanted to ask you who's involved in that process ordinarily?‑‑‑For the care plan?

PN4850

Yes, or the meeting when they went in with the resident and family to the extent appropriate at the time that someone joins the facility?‑‑‑Okay. I'm not privy to when somebody comes in and signs documentation to come into the facility. What I'm talking about there is when a resident comes in in preparation to be respite or permanent care – you know, permanent in there, and at that point we, as carers, we go in and ask them, you know, what all their preferences are. But when - further documentation and all that sort of stuff to come into the facility, we don't do that. That would be management that does that.

*** HELEN PLATT RXN MR GIBIAN

PN4851

When you meet with the residents and discuss their likes and dislikes and preferences that are associated with their care, what is done with that information?‑‑‑That's handed on to the RN so she can then hand it over to the – do it in the handover for the next shift, to be aware of what their preferences are: you know, food, walking, walking aid, mobility aid. Also, another person that's involved in the process is the physiotherapist. She'll come up and she'll do an assessment on that resident's mobility. So there's a few people, you know, that's involved when the resident very first walks onto the actual floor.

PN4852

To the extent that you're involved in it, how do you record that information, that is, on what record is it maintained?‑‑‑Yes, I just document it on paper and hand it over to the RN.

PN4853

Thank you. Thank you, Ms Platt. That was the additional questions in re‑examination

PN4854

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Thank you for your evidence, Ms Platt. You're now excused and free to go?‑‑‑Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.38 AM]

PN4855

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: I believe Ms Harden is here. Ms Harden?

PN4856

MS HARDEN: Yes. How are you?

PN4857

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Very well, thanks. I'm O'Neill C, and my associate is just going to have you take the affirmation.

PN4858

THE ASSOCIATE: Ms Harden, can you please state your full name and work address?

PN4859

MS HARDEN: I'm Michelle Lisa Harden, Basin View Masonic Village, 130 The Wool Road in Basin View, NSW 2540.

<MICHELLE LISA HARDEN, AFFIRMED [10.38 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GIBIAN [10.39 AM]

PN4860

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Mr Gibian.

*** MICHELLE LISA HARDEN XN MR GIBIAN

PN4861

MR GIBIAN: Thank you, Ms Harden. Can you see and hear me?‑‑‑Sorry?

PN4862

Well, can you hear me at least?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4863

Sorry, my picture's a bit obscured on my screen right at the moment, but you'll see – I just moved at least. My name is Mark Gibian. I hope you can hear me, and to the extent you need to see me?‑‑‑I can.

PN4864

Could I just ask you to repeat your full name for record?‑‑‑Michelle Lisa Harden.

PN4865

And your current role is as a recreational activities officer employed by RFBI working at the Basin View Masonic Village?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN4866

You have prepared two statements for the purposes of these proceedings. Do you have those with you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN4867

The first of those is dated 30 March 2021. I think it runs to some 59 paragraphs over 13 pages?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN4868

Have you had an opportunity to review that statement?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN4869

Is it true and correct to the best of your knowledge and recollection?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN4870

Commissioner, that's the first statement of Ms Harden we wish to have admitted as part of the evidence of the proceedings. It's document 187 in the digital court book commencing at page 10865. Ms Harden, I think you should also have with you a statement headed, 'Reply witness statement of Michelle Harden', dated 13 April 2022?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN4871

It runs over four pages and 30 paragraphs?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4872

Have you also had an opportunity to review that statement?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN4873

Is it also true and correct to the best of your knowledge and recollection?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

*** MICHELLE LISA HARDEN XN MR GIBIAN

PN4874

Thank you, Ms Harden. That's the second statement of Ms Harden we wish to have admitted. It's document 188 in the digital court book commencing at page 10888. Ms Harden, hopefully on the screen you should also be able to see Mr Ward, who is now going to ask you some questions?‑‑‑I can see him.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD [10.41 AM]

PN4875

MR WARD: Ms Harden, can you hear me okay?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN4876

Just so you understand, my name is Nigel Ward. I appear in these proceedings for the employer interests. That's my role. Do you have your first statement in front of you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN4877

Could I just start, who do you report to? Who's your boss at the facility?‑‑‑Melinda Bensa(?).

PN4878

What role does she – what's her title?‑‑‑She's the (indistinct) manager and my supervisor.

PN4879

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: I didn't quite catch that, Ms Harden. What's her title again?‑‑‑General manager of the facility and I report to her.

PN4880

Thank you.

PN4881

MR WARD: Are you the only recreational activity officer at the facility or is there more than you?‑‑‑There's two of us.

PN4882

In paragraph 6 of your statement, you talk about completing your Certificate IV in Leisure and Health?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4883

Did you do that because you were required by your employer to do that, or did you do that because you wanted to?‑‑‑I had to do that to retain my position, so I did it on my own.

PN4884

When you say retain your position, that is the position of recreational activity officer?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct. Yes, to take on the role I had to do the Cert IV in Lifestyle and Leisure.

PN4885

So to be a recreational activity officer at RFBI you need a Cert IV?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MICHELLE LISA HARDEN XXN MR WARD

PN4886

Could you go to paragraph 7(h)? I think it's on page 2?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4887

You've listed a variety of potential activities that you might organise there. I just want to make sure I understand how this works, so bear with me?‑‑‑That's okay.

PN4888

My understanding is that you'll design an activity and you'll modify that activity depending on the acuity of the resident who is participating, is that right?‑‑‑That's correct. Yes, if there's high level care residents, I would change the activity so they get the benefit of that activity.

PN4889

I take it that means that you could be running a single activity, but it might be slightly modified for different residents at the same time?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN4890

When you're running activities, are you normally the only person with the residents, or are personal care workers or volunteers with you?‑‑‑I have one volunteer, but not all the time.

PN4891

Not all the time?‑‑‑Two days a week.

PN4892

Two things, assume I was the resident and you were running an activity, and you observed me to behave quite differently to what you expect, I take it you would report that change in behaviour?‑‑‑Yes, (indistinct) - - -

PN4893

Would that go - - -?‑‑‑(Indistinct).

PN4894

Sorry, you talk?‑‑‑On to the personal carers or the RN or my supervisor.

PN4895

Would that be a case of who was available at that time, or is there a pecking order?‑‑‑Who is available at that time on duty.

PN4896

Okay. In your second statement you talk about the social, emotional and cultural section of each resident's care plan?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4897

Can I just - I just want to clarify, if I can, what you do at your facility: I take it that when a resident is admitted, you will do an assessment of that resident in terms of the sort of issues that are relevant to them doing activities and the like? You would do that assessment, wouldn't you?‑‑‑That's right, yes.

*** MICHELLE LISA HARDEN XXN MR WARD

PN4898

Do you do that with the resident alone or do you do it with the resident and the registered nurse? Who do you do that with?‑‑‑Either a family member and the resident or a representative of a family member, if the resident is not capable.

PN4899

Is that - does that give the family member or the resident a chance to explain what their sort of likes and dislikes are?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN4900

I'm just trying to understand this: do you then create a separate leisure care plan, recreational care plan, or does that information then filter into what others have called a nursing care plan?‑‑‑I do - nursing care plan is all one program but I have a separate section that I have to adjust.

PN4901

Okay, and it's your responsibility to do that separate section and make sure it reflects the preferences and abilities of the resident?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4902

Just for my benefit - I'm not sure I've seen a care plan that has that bit in it - typically, what would it cover, Ms Harden?‑‑‑It covers a lot of things - on my side of - - -

PN4903

Yes, on your side?‑‑‑Okay - it covers, like, if they participate, engaging in the activity, how they respond, the mobility of it, if they can go out on a bus trip and the capabilities of doing that activity.

PN4904

Do you personally feel you need the Cert IV to do the job?‑‑‑Yes, I do. It's - yes, it shows you a lot and different aspects of the role and things like that. Yes, I do.

PN4905

I haven't asked other witnesses this question - I probably should have - is there a practical component to the Cert IV or is it all sort of classroom and theory?‑‑‑I had to do work placement for 120 hours and then it was theory.

PN4906

When you did your work placement, who were you being mentored or supervised by in the placement?‑‑‑I had been working here in the role because I couldn't join doing the course until the January. So I had been working in the role for probably about six months and previous to that - I've been here 15 years so previous to that - yes, so, yes.

PN4907

So who signed off your practical component?‑‑‑My general manager.

PN4908

Okay?‑‑‑Yes, sorry.

*** MICHELLE LISA HARDEN XXN MR WARD

PN4909

That's okay. I understand from your first statement that you coordinate volunteers, is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN4910

Can you just explain to me what coordinating volunteers involves?‑‑‑Okay - we put an ad out in the local paper or magazine and then I interview with my general manager the volunteer and then they have to fill out paperwork and they have to have a police check. Then, yes, I have to do an orientation with them and make sure that they're okay with the residents and then I check on them. Once they feel comfortable they could possibly be on their own. If I feel comfortable they can be with the residents, then they're on their own. With the bus drivers, I go - I take the bus out with that driver to make sure that I feel comfortable and safe with that driver. If I don't he doesn't get the position.

PN4911

I'm not sure if I have asked - I'm not sure - - -?‑‑‑Excuse me a second - - -

PN4912

No, that's all right?‑‑‑Sorry, someone tried to come in, sorry.

PN4913

That's all right. You saved me because I've lost my train of thought. You've saved me from that, that was very generous of you. Is working with volunteers part of the Certificate IV program?‑‑‑No, it's not, but it does help - helps myself out and staff and volunteers help with morning tea and, you know, if I have a special function on they come and help me. If it's not for the volunteers, I wouldn't be able to give the residents the joy of that activity. I can't do it on my own.

PN4914

On your own, on your own?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4915

What I was trying to understand was is there any parts of the Certificate IV, when you're studying it, that talk about working with volunteers?‑‑‑No.

PN4916

There's not, okay, right. Thank you, Ms Harden; thank you for your evidence. No further questions, Commissioner?‑‑‑Okay, thank you.

PN4917

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Mr Gibian, anything in re-examination?

PN4918

MR GIBIAN: There were just two matters.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GIBIAN [10.53 AM]

*** MICHELLE LISA HARDEN RXN MR GIBIAN

PN4919

MR GIBIAN: Ms Harden, can you hear me again?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN4920

Thank you. Just two matters: you were asked about undertaking activities with residents and who is present when you are or who is present when you are conducting the activities and you mentioned you have volunteers on some occasions and not on others. Did I correctly understand from that answer that care workers don't ordinarily participate with you in undertaking the activities with residents?‑‑‑Not all the time, no - they might be just walking past and sort of do a bit of a glimpse but yes, no.

PN4921

Secondly, you were asked whether you - in your view, at least - you needed to have a Certificate IV in order to do your job. You said you did and that it was very important within showing - or important in showing different aspects of the role. Were there any particular aspects of the role that you had in mind, that you obtained particular benefit in the study that you did for the Certificate IV?‑‑‑It's more about the - when we were doing the study it was all about the health and wellbeing of the residents. They promoted that a lot, and the lifestyle that they're living now. They promoted that a lot in the lifestyle and leisure health certificate.

PN4922

Yes, thank you, Ms Harden. That's the re-examination.

PN4923

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Thank you for your evidence, Ms Harden. You're now excused and free to go?‑‑‑Okay, thank you very much. Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.55 AM]

PN4924

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: All right, we'll take a short break and resume at 11.05.

PN4925

MR WARD: Sorry, Commissioner - can I just have confirmed who is next?

PN4926

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: I understand it's Ms Schmidt.

PN4927

MR GIBIAN: Ms Schmidt, then Ms Sedgman.

PN4928

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Then Ms Sedgman.

PN4929

MR GIBIAN: Yes.

*** MICHELLE LISA HARDEN RXN MR GIBIAN

PN4930

MR WARD: Thank you, Commissioner; thanks very much.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.55 AM]

RESUMED [11.06 AM]

PN4931

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Ms Schmidt, can you hear me?

PN4932

MS SCHMIDT: Yes, I can. Sorry about that, yes.

PN4933

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: That's all right. My associate is just going to have you take the affirmation.

PN4934

THE ASSOCIATE: Ms Schmidt, can you please say your full name and work address?

PN4935

MS SCHMIDT: Antoinette Mary Schmidt, I work at HammondCare, Miranda.

PN4936

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Do you need a moment just to catch your breath, Ms Schmidt?

PN4937

MS SCHMIDT: Yes, I'll just get a drink. Yes, I'm good now.

<ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT, AFFIRMED [11.07 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GIBIAN [11.07 AM]

PN4938

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Is it Mr Gibian or Ms Doust with this witness?

PN4939

MR GIBIAN: It's me, Commissioner.

PN4940

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: All right.

PN4941

MR GIBIAN: Ms Schmidt, can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN4942

I just wanted to check, I think you do have COVID at the moment; is that correct?‑‑‑I do, yes.

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT XN MR GIBIAN

PN4943

You do feel well enough to speak to us today?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, I'll speak. Yes, that's fine.

PN4944

All right. Can I just then ask you to repeat your full name for the record?‑‑‑Yes, my name is Antoinette Mary Schmidt.

PN4945

And you're a specialised dementia care worker for HammondCare at the HammondCare facility at Miranda?‑‑‑Yes, I am. Yes, but I have moved from specialised dementia care into community care.

PN4946

And when did that change take place?‑‑‑I changed into community care last February.

PN4947

February?‑‑‑So that was last year, so ‑ ‑ ‑

PN4948

2021 or 2022?‑‑‑2021.

PN4949

Can I just have a moment?‑‑‑Sure.

PN4950

And what's your current position title?‑‑‑So, I'm a community care worker.

PN4951

Still with HammondCare?‑‑‑HammondCare.

PN4952

Yes?‑‑‑I'm still with HammondCare.

PN4953

Now, you've made two statements for the purpose of the proceedings, Ms Schmidt. Do you have a copy of those with you?‑‑‑Yes, I do. Yes.

PN4954

And the first of those is dated 30 March 2021 and runs to some 144 paragraphs over 13 pages?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4955

I think in the second paragraph of that statement you said that you're currently employed as a specialist dementia care worker at HammondCare at Miranda. From what you've just said I take it you'd already moved shortly before that, had you, to the community care role?‑‑‑That's right, yes.

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT XN MR GIBIAN

PN4956

With that correction is your statement - have you otherwise had the opportunity to read through that statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4957

And is it, with that correction, true and correct to the best of your knowledge and recollection?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4958

That's the first statement of Ms Schmidt we wish to have as part of the evidence. It's document 156 in the digital court book, commencing at page 10239.

PN4959

You also made a further statement, headed reply witness statement of Antoinette Schmidt, dated 20 April 2022, which runs to some 30 paragraphs. You also have a copy of that with you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4960

And have you had the opportunity to review that statement as well?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4961

And is it also true and correct to the best of your knowledge and recollection?‑‑‑It is.

PN4962

That's the second statement of Ms Schmidt we wish to have as part of the evidence. It's document 157 in the digital court book, commencing at page 10359. Thank you, Ms Schmidt. You hopefully should be able to see Mr Ward on the screen, and he's proposing now to ask you some questions?‑‑‑Yes.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD [11.11 AM]

PN4963

MR WARD: Ms Schmidt, can you hear me okay?‑‑‑Yes. You're just a bit low, but, yes.

PN4964

I'll move my - is that any better?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

PN4965

Thank you. Ms Schmidt, my name is Nigel Ward. I appear in these proceedings for the employer interests. Please be relaxed. I'm just going to ask you some clarification questions on your statement. But, if at any stage you're not well enough to answer, can you just let us know?‑‑‑Yes, I will. Yes, thank you.

PN4966

That's all right. Do you have your first statement in front of you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4967

Can I start - could I ask you to go to paragraph 33?‑‑‑Thirty-three, yes.

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT XXN MR WARD

PN4968

In paragraph 33 you say:

PN4969

The HammondCare residential facility that I work at has eight homes which are built like domestic cottages.

PN4970

Was the facility purpose built, or was it an old facility that was refitted?‑‑‑It was purpose built. It's a new building, yes.

PN4971

Right, okay. And would I be right in saying that the eight homes look like a residential home with a garden?‑‑‑Yes, they do.

PN4972

You then go on and describe the names of them. Did you work in one in particular?‑‑‑I've worked in most of them.

PN4973

Right. So, over what period of time would you have worked in most of them?‑‑‑I've spent probably two years and - the last one I worked in, Golden Grove, I was there for two years.

PN4974

Just for convenience, when I ask you questions you might focus on Golden Grove because that's the one you've worked in for two years. It must might make it easier for both of us?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4975

You say that six of the cottages house six residents each with two specialised dementia care workers, and two of the cottages have 15 residents with three. And then you discuss that there are high-level care and low-level care. Am I right in saying the high care cottages are the ones with six residents?‑‑‑The high care ones, no, they have 15 residents, so, no.

PN4976

So, the ones that have 15 residents and three SDCs they're high care, are they?‑‑‑Yes, they are.

PN4977

And which ones are low care?‑‑‑The low care, so, that would be the Golden Grove.

PN4978

Right?‑‑‑The Lady - so those other ones, actually in saying low care, because the care has changed a lot, we don't - Hammond don't really have that. Initially when I started there we had the high care and the low care, but over time, over the years, kind of pretty much they're all sort of high care.

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT XXN MR WARD

PN4979

Can you go to paragraph 36?‑‑‑Okay, 36, yes.

PN4980

You say:

PN4981

Typically the cottages are grouped into those providing high-level care and those providing low-level care.

PN4982

?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4983

Is that not quite right?‑‑‑No, definitely it is right, yes. Sorry, contradictions, yes.

PN4984

No, that's okay. No, that's okay?‑‑‑Contradictions, yes.

PN4985

And Golden Grove is providing low-level care; is that right?‑‑‑Yes, when residents go into Golden Grove, yes, they have dementia, yes, they have lots of emotional and physical needs. But they are assessed that they be able to more or less care for themselves. So we're not going to be using lifters in those cottages. They're not going to be bed-bound, those residents are not going to be bed-bound.

PN4986

Thank you. Can I take you back to paragraph 7? You've completed your Certificate III in Aged Care. Can you tell us when you did that?‑‑‑I completed my Certificate - so that was - just a moment, please.

PN4987

That's all right. Are you all right, Ms Schmidt?‑‑‑Yes, yes - sorry. Yes, I completed that in - what was it - 2011.

PN4988

Okay, thank you for that. In paragraph 9 and 10 you talk about the five Rs of medication. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4989

Did you do medication as part of your Certificate III or did you do some separate training?‑‑‑Separate training.

PN4990

Okay - what was the separate training you did?‑‑‑So it's our responsibility that the trainer comes on site so we get everybody on board to do training. So we all have to do medication training.

PN4991

So that was - - -?‑‑‑More or less - - -

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT XXN MR WARD

PN4992

On-the-job training?‑‑‑On-the-job training, yes.

PN4993

Did the registered nurse do that?‑‑‑No, we had a trainer.

PN4994

A trainer?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4995

Do you know what qualification the trainer had?‑‑‑No.

PN4996

That's okay?‑‑‑TAFE training, yes.

PN4997

How long did that training last for?‑‑‑That training - we were given a booklet. So we go and study the booklet and then we come and she quizzes us on that and she goes through the motions of how you give medication to the residents. She is with me at all times. So I do it and then - so, say, over, maybe she might do it for two days.

PN4998

So you read some educational material, and then you have the trainer observe you actually doing the job?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4999

I take it she signs you off or he signs you off as being competent?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5000

Could you go to paragraph 11?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5001

You say at paragraph 11: 'I also received training on how to work with clients requiring dementia-specific care'. Is that training as part of your Cert III or was that separate as well?‑‑‑Sorry?

PN5002

Was that dementia-specific care training - - -?‑‑‑(Indistinct).

PN5003

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Perhaps repeat the question, Mr Ward.

PN5004

MR WARD: Thank you, Commissioner. Ms Schmidt, can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT XXN MR WARD

PN5005

Sorry, Ms Schmidt. You say in paragraph 11 that you received training in dementia-specific care. Was that part of your Certificate III or was that separate training?‑‑‑That was part of my Certificate III but also it's ongoing because there are so many - you know, the trainer comes and has us learn lots of different aspects of dementia as we were - maybe after two or three years of being on the job.

PN5006

Right, so if you have been on the job for two, three years, a trainer would come out and spend some time with you, would they?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5007

Can you describe for me what the trainer would do when they're spending time with you?‑‑‑So we'd go - they'd take us off the floor, so we'd go into the training room, where we'd spend the day with them. So we would talk about - because there's lots of behaviours, we have to deal with difficult behaviours and different things like that so we go and spend the day with the trainer and from, you know, other people from different cottages come along too.

PN5008

So you were being trained in de-escalation strategies and things like that, were you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5009

Can I ask you to go to paragraph 25? Paragraph 25, I'm going to read it to you, if that helps. You say: 'When I transitioned to the residential care facility, I was required to undertake additional training around food preparation'. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5010

When you say the residential care facility, is that when you were transferred to the cottages?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5011

I take it that the food preparation training was because you actually do food preparation and cooking in the cottages?‑‑‑Yes, yes, we have to prepare all the meals.

PN5012

Yes, we'll come to that. It's important. Can I ask who did the food preparation training for you?‑‑‑We have a chef that comes in and he trains us in different aspects, yes. I'm just going to close my door.

PN5013

Okay?‑‑‑Sorry about that.

PN5014

That's fine, that's fine?‑‑‑Environmental noises.

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT XXN MR WARD

PN5015

How long - was that a training program, a training course?‑‑‑No, no, they come in - they pick Golden Grove, they come in and they'd say, 'Okay, we're going to train you on how to - cooking a dish, make it more presentable to older people', or how to use knives properly and different things.

PN5016

And how often would that chef come in?‑‑‑How often? He would come - I might say every three or four months.

PN5017

Okay?‑‑‑It's not a regular thing.

PN5018

And would he spend the whole day with you or would it just be part of the day?‑‑‑No, just part of the day.

PN5019

An hour or two hours? How much would it be?‑‑‑Probably an hour - he'd come in for an hour. Come in for an hour, make stuff, make a mess and then leave.

PN5020

That's what chefs do. You say in your statement that you're covered by HammondCare's enterprise agreement and that you're an aged-care employee level 3. That's in your statement, is that correct?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN5021

I'm not going to both you with the enterprise agreement. Have you ever read the enterprise agreement?‑‑‑I've had a flick through it, that's about it.

PN5022

Grade 3 has this description - I just want to ask you a question about one part of it. I'm just going to read it to you. I'll read it slowly:

PN5023

The grade 3 employee

PN5024

- just for Mr Gibian's benefit I should explain where I'm looking. I need to work it out myself. It's Part VI, 'Classification and rates of pay'. It has grade 3 in it and grade 3 is described this way:

PN5025

A grade 3 employee holds either a Certificate III in care support services or other appropriate qualifications, experience acceptable to HammondCare and is designated by HammondCare as having the responsibility for leading and/or supervising the work of others, or is required to work individually with minimal supervision and has been designated by HammondCare as having overall responsibility for a particular function within the residential care home.

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT XXN MR WARD

PN5026

I'm assuming, Ms Schmidt, that that last description applies to you if you're running a cottage. Is that your understanding?‑‑‑Yes, sorry, it's a bit hard to understand (indistinct).

PN5027

I said is that your understanding?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN5028

Is the description right that you worked with minimal supervision?‑‑‑Definitely.

PN5029

Now, can I take you to paragraph 42. Just tell me when you've got there?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5030

I think in paragraph 42 you're talking about residents being assessed as they enter the facility. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, that's right. We don't see that part. We don't see that part, so.

PN5031

That's okay. And am I right that during the initial assessment and admission, the initial care plan for the resident will be put together by the registered nurse?‑‑‑She has a part of it but she doesn't put it all together because they have their - the manager comes and - so it's kind of a combination with the manager, the nurse and the families of course.

PN5032

Okay, thank you. Thank you, that's fine, that's fine. Now, I just want to talk a little bit about the cottage model if I can, just to get my head around it. You say in paragraph 48 that you launder residents' clothes and that certain items like sheets and towels are laundered via an external provider. Am I right that the sheets and towels are sent out to a contracted laundry service?‑‑‑Actually HammondCare do it offsite.

PN5033

So, when you say it's an external provider, is it a HammondCare laundry, it's not a commercial laundry?‑‑‑No, it's not a commercial laundry, no. HammondCare has a - they have their own laundry site off in Hammondville.

PN5034

We visited it, we visited it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5035

Am I right that when the sheets and towels have been laundered they come back to your cottage?‑‑‑Yes, they do.

PN5036

And do you have to then place them in the linen closet or do the laundry staff do that?‑‑‑The laundry staff do that.

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT XXN MR WARD

PN5037

But in terms of making the beds and putting the towels in the room, is that your job?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5038

You say that you wash the residents' clothes. Is that in a sort of a domestic washing machine like we might have in our houses?‑‑‑It's a commercial washing machine.

PN5039

Right. But it's inside the cottage itself is it?‑‑‑Yes, it is, yes. Yes, we have - - -

PN5040

Bear with me. I've only seen on cottage. Is it sort of hidden away behind the door, the washing machine, so the residents don't go in that area or is it out where the residents are?‑‑‑No, it's just - it's not hidden, no, it's just - actually the residents can go in because they can go in there and come out and walk around the garden.

PN5041

So, the residents can have access to this laundry?‑‑‑The residents can have access to the laundry. We have a cupboard, we lock all the chemicals, everything's locked.

PN5042

When you use the word 'chemicals', what chemicals are you talking about?‑‑‑So, when we're cleaning the bathrooms with the chemicals and the laundry powders and any laundry - - -

PN5043

What chemicals do you use to clean the bathrooms?‑‑‑So, I think the brand called Eco. We don't use any bleach. We have special ones that the company buy in. Just a moment please.

PN5044

No, that's fine?‑‑‑I'm sorry about that.

PN5045

No, that's fine. Are you okay?‑‑‑Yes. No, somebody was knocking so I had to get rid of that person.

PN5046

That's all right. Could you go to paragraph 49?‑‑‑Yes, 49, sure.

PN5047

You say:

PN5048

CDPs are also expected to perform all cleaning work including vacuuming, sweeping, dusting, general cleaning duties.

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT XXN MR WARD

PN5049

Does that mean there was no other cleaning service provided?‑‑‑That's right, yes.

PN5050

So, there was no routine commercial cleaners coming in, you did it all?‑‑‑They'd bring in commercial cleaner when they have somebody coming in, you know, certain government bodies coming in to check to see how things are - how the company's going.

PN5051

Are you suggesting they were a little mischievous are you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5052

But other than that, you would - you would do the cleaning?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN5053

That's fine?‑‑‑Yes, yes, we did everything, yes.

PN5054

Can I ask you to go to paragraph 55?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5055

You say there, you use this phrase:

PN5056

HammondCare's menus.

PN5057

Do you see that phrase?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5058

I take it that the menus were designed and written by somebody in HammondCare?‑‑‑Yes, yes, the chef came in and he designed the menus.

PN5059

Do you know if a dietician or nutritionist was involved in that?‑‑‑There may have, there may have - - -

PN5060

If you don't know you don't have to - - -?‑‑‑No, I don't - I don't know, no.

PN5061

No, that's fine. So, is that - can I just see if I understand how that might work. So, you - in your house, in your cottage, you would be told what the menu for lunch is going to be next week?‑‑‑Yes, yes, there was a routine, yes, yes. We had the winter one and we had the summer menu, yes.

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT XXN MR WARD

PN5062

I take it that the ingredients and the recipes for that lunch would be provided to you?‑‑‑Yes, yes, we used to have to go down. We had another building, we called it like a shop because we'd bring some residents down and we'd go with our trolleys and we'd be picking up the dry goods and meat and whatever supplies, yes.

PN5063

I'm assuming that the range of food was quite broad. You might - it might be as simple as a sandwich or it could be a roast beef or something like that?‑‑‑Yes, yes. Definitely. We had to cook. We didn't make too many sandwiches. Lunch times was always a hot meal and then yes, we had to cook different things, quiches and - - -

PN5064

I don't want this to sound offensive, I'm asking this respectfully but you've not been trained to cook?‑‑‑No.

PN5065

Was it just - - -?‑‑‑No, just my - yes, my basics, you know, from when I look after my family of course, yes.

PN5066

And HammondCare didn't think to train you in cooking? Your skills were enough?‑‑‑Well, we have to kind of adjust to it because cooking for, you know, I have myself, I have my children but it's a big ask you know when you're cooking for 15 people plus maybe you might have - well, 15 plus staff have lunch too, so that's - for 18 people it's a big ask to adjust cooking for large quantities.

PN5067

When you were in Golden Grove, was it you and two other people?‑‑‑No, it was just me and another staff member.

PN5068

Did you share the cooking, or was one of you a better cook so you did most of the cooking?‑‑‑No, because I work with lots of Nepalese people, so I let them cook. Like, one week I do the cooking and they – you know, I say one I do the cooking and then the next day they'd do the cooking, so yes, we just work like that.

PN5069

Can I come on to medications?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5070

Talk a little bit about medications. Am I right in saying that you didn't get involved in Schedule 8 medications?‑‑‑That's right.

PN5071

That would have been the registered nurse?‑‑‑Yes. The nurse comes onboard, and so we picked out whatever resident needed medication. I'd come and supervise her, or I'd sign her off, and then go approach the resident and supervise her giving the resident the medication.

PN5072

So your medications were Schedule 4 medications?‑‑‑Yes.

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT XXN MR WARD

PN5073

I assume that that might include as well creams and eye drops and things like that?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN5074

Were the Schedule 4 medications kept in your cottage or were they kept somewhere else?‑‑‑Yes, they're kept in the cottage. We had a little – we call it the parlour, a little room out the back, which is locked. We had a key to get into that door, and then also the cupboard is locked, so I had the key to the locked cupboard. We have to keep it locked at all times.

PN5075

If you're doing a medication round, I assume you had a medication trolley?‑‑‑No.

PN5076

So you'd do one resident at a time, would you?‑‑‑Yes. So I'd go, open the cupboard, get the – we had it in Webster‑pak, and then I have to go and check their medicine, and they all had their own little files.

PN5077

When you checked – just tell me if I'm wrong with this – my understanding is there's two ways you might check. You might check the name of the medication off against their file; you might also have, like, a picture chart so you can actually check what the medication looks like. Did you do either of those?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, we have to do.

PN5078

And if you saw something wrong with the medication, let's say that it's meant to be a blue pill but you've got a red pill in the Webster‑pak, who would you talk to?‑‑‑So I'd ring the RN, the nurse.

PN5079

And she would make the decision as to what happens next?‑‑‑Yes, it's in her – her choice, yes.

PN5080

Some people can swallow their tablets, some people need a custard or a jam?‑‑‑I'm sorry, I couldn't hear that.

PN5081

No, that's okay. I think we just dropped out. Some of your residents could swallow their tablets whole; some of them needed them ground up and in a custard or jam?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5082

Was that on their file, or was that written on the Webster‑pak how they were meant to take it?‑‑‑That was on their file.

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT XXN MR WARD

PN5083

I assume that you would observe them taking the tablets, and then you would record that they've taken the tablet?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, I stay with them. It may take a while. I stay with them and just talk to them and, yes, hopefully they'll swallow it, and then I go out the back and tick it off, yes, that person has taken their medication.

PN5084

If they refuse to take, you would record that they've refused it?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, record that and tell the nurse, and then leave it and maybe try later. Maybe another person might try.

PN5085

So you'd record it and inform the nurse that they've refused?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5086

Can you go to paragraph 77?‑‑‑77 was it, sorry?

PN5087

77, sorry, yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5088

You're talking about observing residents and conditions they might have at this stage, and you say in 77:

PN5089

For example, I will usually notify the nurse if I see any skin concerns or scrapes. If the matter is serious, the resident will be treated by a nurse of referred to see a doctor.

PN5090

Can you just see that statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5091

I'm just trying to understand, obviously you would take progress notes based on your observations of the resident?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, we always have to document.

PN5092

When might you see something on a resident, could you describe for me what condition you might see where you'd immediately contact the registered nurse?‑‑‑So if we're doing personal care, if we saw a bruise on a resident or skin tears, definitely ring the nurse.

PN5093

I take it you'd discuss with the nurse what you're observing?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5094

And I take it the nurse might tell you what to do next?‑‑‑I'd get the nurse to come and she would have to dress the - - -

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT XXN MR WARD

PN5095

Okay. If a resident has a fall in your cottage, can you tell me what the procedure is that you have to follow if they have a fall?‑‑‑Okay. So if they have a fall, we initially quickly go over and ask them are they okay; leave them on the floor. I get, if I can – quickly go and get someone else to go and ring the nurse. So we wait for the nurse to come, and she comes and assesses the resident.

PN5096

If they need to go to hospital, she or he will make that decision, the registered nurse?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, they make that decision, yes.

PN5097

I assume that from time-to-time you have residents who display aggressive behaviour?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5098

Am I right – tell me if this is what you would normally do – I take it you would normally try and de‑escalate that behaviour first?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, definitely we try all these methods that we were shown; yes, definitely.

PN5099

And that comes from your Certificate III training and your specialised dementia training?‑‑‑Yes, that's right. Yes, we try everything from the training, but then sometimes, you know, it's not always easy.

PN5100

No, I appreciate it's not. If it looks like you're in an unsafe situation, that is, you think you're unsafe, what's the procedure you have to follow in a cottage?‑‑‑Make sure I'm safe, move away from the person, try and isolate the person. Maybe I'd get the person to stay in the room and to move – because all the other residents would come around to try and, you know, bring the other residents - take them out to the garden or - - -

PN5101

Do you have an alarm system if you're feeling particularly unsafe?‑‑‑An alarm system? No.

PN5102

Have you ever been in a situation where you were so unsafe you had to leave the cottage?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5103

Who did you notify when you left the cottage because you felt unsafe?‑‑‑I'd ring the nurse. Ring the nurse quickly and then – yes.

PN5104

Does the nurse then come and help you, or other people come and help you?‑‑‑Yes, somebody from the office may come down later on – yes, yes, they may. But not straightaway, you know. They leave us there, 15/20 minutes, you know.

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT XXN MR WARD

PN5105

You might be waiting outside for 15 or 20 minutes?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

PN5106

Can I ask you to go to paragraph 82?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5107

You talk there about taking blood pressure. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5108

Some witnesses have described this. I just wanted to see if you did it at HammondCare. I understand that in some operations the blood pressure levels will be mapped as green, yellow or red, and if they're red that means you contact the registered nurse straightaway. Do you have a system like that?‑‑‑No.

PN5109

So you just take the blood pressure and you chart it, do you?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, let the nurse know. Yes.

PN5110

So, if it was high or low you would let the nurse know?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5111

Do you do the same for blood sugar levels, if they're too high or too low you'd let the nurse know?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

PN5112

And the same ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Yes, sorry.

PN5113

‑ ‑ ‑for taking temperatures, if somebody had an elevated temperature would you inform the nurse?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5114

Just a moment if I can. Ms Schmidt, I don't have any more questions for you, but I hope you get well soon?‑‑‑All right, thank you.

PN5115

Thank you.

PN5116

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Any re-examination, Mr Gibian?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GIBIAN [11.47 AM]

PN5117

MR GIBIAN: Yes, just a couple of matters.

PN5118

Ms Schmidt, can you hear me again? Ms Schmidt, can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes.

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT RXN MR GIBIAN

PN5119

Thank you. I just wanted to clarify a couple of matters. Firstly, you were asked about the domestic cottage arrangements at the HammondCare facility that you worked, and you described them as having been purpose built in that manner. Do you know when they were purpose built in to accommodate the household model?‑‑‑I can speak for the one in Miranda, that was 2013.

PN5120

2013. Yes, sorry, that's what I was asking about. You were also asked about the different homes, and you, I think, described the Golden Grove unit or home as for lower care level residents. And when you were asked about the high care and the low care, you described there as having been a change in the period that you were working at HammondCare. What changed in terms of the proportion of lower care residents that you observed?‑‑‑Well, over the lower care they have a lot more needs (indistinct), challenging needs, if you could call it that.

PN5121

And of the residents that were, at least in the period up to 2021 when you were working in these homes, in the Golden Grove home, can you just describe the kind of general needs of those residents, or conditions that they experienced?‑‑‑So, they'd come in with lots of, let's see, lots of medical needs of course. And there were a few that were not really suitable to our cottage, you know, because it's, how could I say, some of them were quite aggressive, you know, and if there were lots of women in the cottage and then a few men it can - there was one person who had come in and he'd be very domineering, and he's just kind of very aggressive. You know, he'd be fine one day and them the next he'd just turn and quite aggressive towards staff members, and then even other residents at the cottage, which would upset everybody, you know, it would upset all the other residents.

PN5122

Were the residents in all of the cottages including Golden Grove diagnosed with dementia?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, it's a specific dementia (indistinct).

PN5123

You were asked then about various types of training that you've done, including dementia specific training. You described about having undertaken a dementia specific component as part of your certificate III qualification, but also having undertaken ongoing training in relation to dementia specific care. How regular was that ongoing training, that is, was it something that you did every year or every couple of years, or ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Well, I have to say when I first started we did quite a lot of training, but then as time gone not as much training. Now, it's kind of eased off, not quite a lot of - not as regular.

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT RXN MR GIBIAN

PN5124

You were then asked some questions, or you were asked a question about the enterprise agreement and which classifications you were designated under in the enterprise agreement. Now, tell me if you were informed of these matters or not. There are both in the enterprise agreement, and I can show you if it would assist, but just tell me whether HammondCare had told you this, there are both specialist dementia care grades and what are general care and support grades, both have a level 3. Do you know whether you were designated as a specialised dementia care grade 3 or as a general care and support worker level 3?‑‑‑It would be general, I'd say, yes.

PN5125

All right. Finally, you were asked some questions about having had to deal with residents who were aggressive, or circumstances in which you felt unsafe, and Mr Ward asked you whether you had experienced such an incident when you'd felt unsafe, and you said you had. Can you describe the specific incident, if there was one, that you had in mind, and what occurred?‑‑‑Sure. Well, we have a resident, tall person, I'm not very tall, come face-to-face, look in your face, and he's screaming at you, and then he goes to the front door and he's banging on the front door, banging on it. I thought, this is quite a strong front door, but I thought, he's going to smash it, he's going to break it, and luckily I think there was no glass in it, and then he'd go out the back into the garden area. Yes, it's just so confronting and I was, kind of, thinking, if he jumps over the fence, because it's quite a - it's up to probably five feet, so, you know, he could easily jump over that fence and just escape.

PN5126

And what did you do in that circumstance?‑‑‑What did I do? I quickly rang the office, let them know this is what's happening. As I said, with the other residents trying - whoever was around just to come and maybe try and get them to go back to their rooms. But people who have dementia then they don't have the conception of fear. They don't - no, because they're in their own little world, so, I don't know.

PN5127

And did anyone else come to provide any assistance to you in dealing with that individual?‑‑‑Over time we'd get the nurse to come and she'd say, 'Okay, we'll calm him down. We'll try and ring the family', so that'd all take time, you know, to ring to get his partner to come, and she'd - you know, by the time she came he probably would have calmed down by then, you know, so she's obviously not going to see what's happening with him, you know, at the time. So it is frightening, yes. It just takes a little while to get over it, you know, just sit down and, 'Is it time to go home yet?', you know, so - yes.

PN5128

Thank you, Ms Schmidt. That's the re-examination, Commissioner.

PN5129

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Thank you for your evidence, Ms Schmidt, particularly since you're unwell. You're now excused?‑‑‑All right, thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.55 AM]

*** ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT RXN MR GIBIAN

PN5130

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: So, it's Ms Sedgman?

PN5131

MR GIBIAN: Yes, Commissioner, Ms Doust is going to take Ms Sedgman's evidence. I was just going to mention we've been contacted in the last half hour or so by Deborah Kelly, who was to be the witness in two witnesses time, 12.30. She's apparently tested positive to COVID, and I don't think feels able to give her evidence immediately, at least. So I think, given how we're tracking, we'll have enough - there's two witnesses before lunch in any event, so I think we'll probably fill up the time but I thought I should let - inform the Commission and Mr Ward of that matter.

PN5132

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: All right.

PN5133

MS C SEDGMAN: Hello.

PN5134

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Hello, Ms Sedgman, you can hear me all right?

PN5135

MS SEDGMAN: Yes.

PN5136

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: I'm Commissioner O'Neill and my associate is just going to have you take the affirmation.

PN5137

MS SEDGMAN: Okay - can you see me?

PN5138

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Yes. Can you not see anyone? Sorry, can you not see anyone, Ms Sedgman? Ms Sedgman, can you still hear me? Are you able to contact Ms Sedgman?

PN5139

MS DOUST: Yes, we're doing that, Commissioner. Yes, we've asked her to log out and then try to log in again, Commissioner.

PN5140

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: All right, Ms Sedgman, can you hear me now?

PN5141

MS SEDGMAN: Yes, I can hear you.

PN5142

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: All right, we'll see how we go. My associate is just going to have you take the affirmation.

PN5143

THE ASSOCIATE: Ms Sedgman, can you please state your full name and work address?

PN5144

MS SEDGMAN: Camilla Anne Sedgman, I work for RSL LifeCare in Tweed Heads. My home address, is that what you're wanting as well?

PN5145

THE ASSOCIATE: Just your work address is fine.

PN5146

MS SEDGMAN: It is Bay Street, Tweed Heads.

<CAMILLA ANNE SEDGMAN, AFFIRMED [11.59 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS DOUST [11.59 AM]

PN5147

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Ms Doust.

PN5148

MS DOUST: Thank you. Ms Sedgman, can you see me?‑‑‑No.

PN5149

Can you hear me well enough?‑‑‑Yes, I can hear you.

PN5150

Thank you. Now, can you - your full name is Camilla Sedgman, is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5151

You're a personal support worker employed by RSL LifeCare?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5152

Have you prepared a statement for the purpose of the proceeding before the Commission which is dated 5 October 2021?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5153

Just for the record, that's document 194 at page 10934 of the digital court book?‑‑‑Yes, I've got my statement here in front of me.

PN5154

Thank you. Ms Sedgman, since you made that statement, is it correct that the rate you're now paid for travel has increased from 72 cents a kilometre to 83 cents a kilometre?‑‑‑Yes, that's just been paid in the last fortnight.

PN5155

All right, and also since you made your statement is it the case that you now have a slightly different list of clients? So where you recount your duties in your statement, that's changed somewhat since you made your statement?‑‑‑Yes.

*** CAMILLA ANNE SEDGMAN XN MS DOUST

PN5156

So subject to those matters updating your account, is your statement true and correct to the best of your belief and knowledge?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5157

Thank you. I read that, Commissioner.

PN5158

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Mr Ward.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD [12.01 PM]

PN5159

MR WARD: Ms Sedgman, can you hear and see me?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5160

Thank you. My name is Nigel Ward, Ms Sedgman. I appear in these proceedings for the employer interests. I'm just going to ask you some questions?‑‑‑Sure.

PN5161

If at any stage you can't hear me properly or the line drops out, just take your time and let me know. Can I just start with what you just told Ms Doust, if I can - you have changed your client list, is that what you just said?‑‑‑Yes, so I work in the community so we do a lot of driving and travelling. So I do - three days a week I do what we call a Tweed Coast run, which starts from Tindra right through to Pottsville.

PN5162

You describe that in your statement, don't you?‑‑‑Yes, yes, that's in my statement. So as time - you know, we lost clients as they pass away or so there are two clients that are in my statement that are no longer on my run. One has gone into residential care and the other one has gone for other reasons. So our roster can change all the time because sometimes we have, like, you know, hospital care clients that might get thrown on there at the end at the last minute that generally what's in my statement is what I do on a day-to-day basis.

PN5163

That's fine, that's fine. Do you have your statement in front of you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5164

Could I just start at paragraph 10, if you could go to that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5165

You say you've got your Certificate III in Aged Care in 2012. Am I right in saying that Open Colleges Pty Ltd was the provider you got your Cert III through?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5166

You then say at paragraph 11: 'I'm required to undertake annual ongoing training and development with RSL which is provided online via Acuna'?‑‑‑Yes.

*** CAMILLA ANNE SEDGMAN XXN MR WARD

PN5167

Can you just help describe what Acuna is?‑‑‑So Acuna is a training model that we use with RSL so all of the workers are required to do - it's like an annual thing that we have to do. So over the 12 months' period we have 11 to 12 modules that we have to do to keep up with our, you know, training for what we do with our work. So I'd put in there, for example, you know, wearing the PPE, manual handling and all those sorts of things. That's all paid through RSL for the time that it takes for us to do those modules.

PN5168

You say in your statement nine or 10 modules but you just said 11 or 12. Does it change, does it?‑‑‑Yes, it can change. Like this year with COVID they've added extra modules on to there.

PN5169

Right?‑‑‑So normally there is about nine or 10 but with COVID they've added on extra PPEs, COVID modules that we have to do.

PN5170

Right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5171

You say in your statement that you're given 30 minutes' pay for these. Is that what you're given?‑‑‑So roughly each module - some are a little bit, you know, not as long as others. But on average most of the modules take about 30 minutes to do.

PN5172

Some might take 20, some might take 40 but on average - - -?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN5173

If I just understand by way of example, can you just - let's take manual handling as an example. What would be in the manual handling module?‑‑‑Basically just talking about correct ways of lifting and bending over, things like that and with our work, with the health, we have a lot of, like, chair lifting and hoists and that sort of thing. So besides doing the theory side of it, we also do a manual handling, like hands on, to make sure that all of the staff are aware that they are doing correct manual handling and lifting and all of that sort of thing so we don't have an injury.

PN5174

That's got a practical component, does it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5175

When you're doing the practical component, who's overseeing you when you're doing that?‑‑‑So, we just a couple of months ago we had a lady come in and we hired out a room and we got groups of staff and she conducted the manual handling. So, it was somebody through RSL they'd paid to come in and do that.

*** CAMILLA ANNE SEDGMAN XXN MR WARD

PN5176

You would sort of practice how to do it properly?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN5177

And how long was that for?‑‑‑That took about nearly an hour, yes.

PN5178

Can I just talk a little bit about who works around you if I can?‑‑‑Sure.

PN5179

Who's your boss as it were, if I can use that phrase?‑‑‑So, with RSL, so we have client service manager. So her name's Melissa.

PN5180

Yes?‑‑‑And then we have like team leaders who's Wendy, her name is.

PN5181

Yes?‑‑‑And then, yes, then above them then you have your regional managers and, you know, that sort of thing and it just sort of goes up from there.

PN5182

That's okay?‑‑‑In my office, you know, who I go to is Wendy and Melissa.

PN5183

So, you would go to the client services manager or the team leader?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5184

Is either of them a registered nurse?‑‑‑I think Melissa is, yes.

PN5185

Bear with me, I didn't write quickly enough. That's the client services manager is it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5186

Can I take you to paragraph 33(o)?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5187

Look, sorry, I should start. My understanding from your evidence is that you're very committed and passionate about your job. I think you've said you love your job. That's right, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

*** CAMILLA ANNE SEDGMAN XXN MR WARD

PN5188

I think you'll - put your pay aside, you don't think you're paid enough money - your concern about your job, I think is that you're often rostered and you're quite rushed in what you do. That's a concern, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes, like, you know, with working in the community and because with RSL we don't have - they don't have work cars, so we're using our own private cars, you know, wear and tear on our own cars. So, doing what we do in the community, like we have a lot of clients that we've got to get to and we've only got, you know, most of them are only like 25 minutes, you know, and then you've got to rush off to the next and you get - so, you're basically in and out of the car and then you go on to the next one, and you know, you might get held up somewhere along the line. There could be roadworks. You know, it's very, very hard to stick on that path.

PN5189

To the plan?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN5190

Can I take you to - can I take you to (o), 33(o)?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5191

You describe there three lengths of visit, a 15, a 25 and a 45. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5192

What would typically be a 15 minute visit?‑‑‑So 15 minute is what we call a welfare check. So they're clients that - so, the majority of our clients are DVA clients. We do have some home care clients, but the majority of them are DVA. So, what we call a welfare check is a 15 minute. So, it's just basically just, you know, calling in on them, making sure that they're okay, you know, that they've had their, you know, medication for the day, you know. It could be putting some cream on their legs, could be putting stockings on. It's just what we call a welfare check just to, yes, make sure that they're okay.

PN5193

What might be involved in a 45 minute visit?‑‑‑So, 45 minutes, for example, we have a lady who's 102 and she has 40 minutes every morning, and so what we do for her, we shower her, we do - - -

PN5194

Sorry, when you say 'we', do you mean you shower her?‑‑‑Yes, yes, so I - 'us' is the support service.

PN5195

That's okay, that's okay?‑‑‑Yes, so we get her out of bed and we give her a shower, then I make her bed, get her breakfast and then we have a - what we call - like a med prompt, so we'll, you know, get her tablets out for her, make her a cup of tea. Basically just make sure that, you know, that she's right. So then we, you know, which takes a good 40 minutes to do all those things.

PN5196

The med prompt, can I just ask you to focus on that for a minute?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5197

My understanding is that you're not allowed to administer the medication but you can take it out of the blister pack or the Webster-pak and you put it in front of them, or you put it in their hand. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes. So, that's what a medication prompt is, it's just - - -

*** CAMILLA ANNE SEDGMAN XXN MR WARD

PN5198

Prompt?‑‑‑Yes, putting it into a cup or like a bowl, plate, in their hand and then (audio malfunction) - - -

PN5199

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Ms Sedgman, can you still hear me? We've just lost your sound?‑‑‑Can you hear me?

PN5200

Now we can, yes.

PN5201

MR WARD: You were at putting it in the cup?‑‑‑Yes. So, we - most of them have, like Webster-paks, so we just put them in a cup or on a plate or in their hand and then they take the medication themselves.

PN5202

Do you have to check that the medication's right or do you just accept that because it's in the Webster-pak?‑‑‑So, yes, so what we do is we have like there's seven nights, so it's usually we should always - and that's also in the training.

PN5203

Yes?‑‑‑So, there's always - you know, you always check the right name, date, medication, all those things before we, you know, do a medication prompt.

PN5204

Some of the residential aged care evidence says that the care worker has a picture chart that they compare the pills against. Do you do something like that, or don't you do that?‑‑‑No, not in community, on the Webster-paks, they - there is a list of what tablets are in each individual, you know, blister so what we usually do is like, if there's a list of, say for example, five tablets, we'll just make sure that there's five tablets in that little blister.

PN5205

If you happen to - there's meant to be five and you saw seven, who would you contact?‑‑‑So, what we would do is then we would contact Melissa or our supervisor or our manager and let them know, and then they would either get an RN to come out or they'd be in contact with the chemist who are doing the Webster-pak, just to make sure that there hasn't been a change with the medication and making sure that everything's correct.

PN5206

So, they would tell you how to proceed would they, Ms Sedgman?‑‑‑Yes.

*** CAMILLA ANNE SEDGMAN XXN MR WARD

PN5207

Okay. Can I just take a step back for a minute. When a client's first brought on board, does somebody do a risk assessment of their house to make sure it's safe to go into?‑‑‑Usually, so - usually like they get - when there's a new client, so you have - they get an ACAT assessment, so then, you know, that'd be through - or they could get a package from (indistinct). So, that ACAT assessment usually is done in their home. So they would do just a basic check on the home to make sure it's - you know, things. So, when they take on a package, a new client to ours, then yes, there is a form that we fill out, a risk assessment just to, you know, when you first go into the house just to make sure that, you know, there's adequate lighting, there's ramps, there's handrails, and if we think that a new client might need handrails or things, again we would be in contact with the office and they'll organise an occupational therapist to go out there and put in place what's required for that client.

PN5208

And in your case that would be you talking to the client services manager that there's an issue, would it?‑‑‑Yes. So I'm actually for RSL - I'm actually the work health and safety representative for RSL.

PN5209

How's the job going?‑‑‑Yes, it's not too bad. I only did the training a few months ago, so yes.

PN5210

When you're with a client, I assume that your write observation notes after you've been with a client?‑‑‑So with RSL, they have a folder in their home. So when we go to each client we sign in the book to say the time that – well basically it's date, time, and then we'll put there whatever it is that we have done or if there's something that's, you know, out of the ordinary, so then the next person that comes into the home can follow up with that. So usually it's just – like, for a normal – like, we'd write in there the date, the time, and then we'd just put 'AM personal care, welfare check', or whatever it might be, and then we just sign our name.

PN5211

Obviously you've got Cert III training. If you observe something you were concerned with, who would you contact?‑‑‑Again we would contact Melissa, our service manager.

PN5212

I take it Melissa would then decide whether or not a registered nurse or somebody has to be brought in to help?‑‑‑Yes, well then she would then get in contact with our RN, our nurses, to go out there and observe themselves, or have a talk to them, or talk to family members, or - you know, if there's any changes.

PN5213

Can I just offer you an example of that? If you were showering a client and you observed that a client had bruising up their arm, you would contact the client services manager and inform them that you've observed that?‑‑‑Yes, well first I'd ask the client, you know, how they got that bruise and all that, because, you know, they may have had a fall and it wasn't documented in the folder or something like that. So I'd speak to them first and, you know – and then again I would make notes in the - - -

*** CAMILLA ANNE SEDGMAN XXN MR WARD

PN5214

In the book?‑‑‑In the book.

PN5215

Yes?‑‑‑And then we also have what we call TCM, which we can send through messages to the office and they can – the RN then can follow up with anything like that.

PN5216

Is TCM an app on your phone?‑‑‑Yes, it's just a number that – it's just so we're not inundating the office all the time, you know, because they get a lot of phone calls. So we can just send a message through to this particular number for the TCM, and then that gets dispersed out to the right people that need to address that situation, whether it be a nurse or a manager, or so on.

PN5217

When you take a client on for the first time, is it the client services manager or a separate registered nurse who writes their initial care plan?‑‑‑So with – because like I said before, we have a lot of DVA clients, Defence veterans, so with them it's more or less dealt through DVA - - -

PN5218

So you're not writing a care plan for those people?‑‑‑No, that's all through DVA. So with the care plans, so it's usually, like, home care packages, so where we have Adam; he is our – he does the home care packages. He is the one who signs up those clients, where the DVA is all dealt through DVA.

PN5219

If there's a medical emergency, if you arrive and a client's having, say, serious difficulty breathing, do you have a procedure you're required to follow?‑‑‑Yes. We'd call 000.

PN5220

Yes?‑‑‑And we would stay the client until such time the ambulance has come, and then we'd also notify the office. You know, we would stay with them until further instructed.

PN5221

When you say, 'notify the office', that's the client services manager or - - -?‑‑‑Yes, or even just the main office, and they'll put me through to, or let them know that, you know, that this has happened, and then I'm, you know, waiting for the ambulance to come, yes.

PN5222

I'm assuming – I'm not being rude to you – I'm assuming you'll use your training to make sure that the client's as comfortable as can be till the ambulance comes?‑‑‑Yes.

*** CAMILLA ANNE SEDGMAN XXN MR WARD

PN5223

Would the client services manager ring their family and tell them what's happening?‑‑‑Well usually when the ambulance come, they would have all the family's or next of kin and all that, so it'd be up – then the ambulance then get in contact with the family.

PN5224

Okay?‑‑‑But the office would obviously then follow up with that.

PN5225

Have you ever been confronted by aggressive behaviour from a client?‑‑‑Funny you say that, I have just recently, yes. In the statement, I think which is Y through to CC, where I spoke about a client that has post‑traumatic stress, about four or five weeks ago - he had been doing quite well. He has post‑traumatic stress. He's been in psychiatric wards. He's not a very old client. He's on a lot of medication, and he is quite a – can be a very aggressive person. I had had quite a good rapport with him over the time that I've been working with RSL, so we have a very good, you know, understanding and communication, but just recently, about five weeks ago, because he's on such a lot of medication he was on the couch, and just to shorten the story, so I'd just finished doing his shopping for the day and he was, you know, quite zombied, you know, on the couch, and the RN had turned up just to do her normal 28‑day review and was asking him questions. Anyway, and then just out of the blue he snapped, and got up and started pushing her – like, started physically pushing her.

PN5226

Yes?‑‑‑Pushed the nurse into the wall, at which I sort of – my instant reaction was I sort of got up and sort of stood in front of him to try and calm him down, and I think she was very, very lucky that I was there at the time, because it could've ended up very bad. He started attacking her, but because we've had a good relationship, him and I, you know, I trusted he wasn't going to – he wouldn't hurt me. So yes, so I sort of got in between the two of them so she could sort of grab her bag and get out of the house, because he was going for her. So I just escalated, you know, what was going on, and she got out, and he was, yes. So it has been reported to the police. It's been documented. Yes, it was quite scary.

PN5227

Yes?‑‑‑And yes, therefore he is not on our books and our roster anymore, because there's been quite a few close calls, and then now that this has happened that, yes, we've declined his services.

PN5228

You've deemed him to be an unsafe client?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5229

I take it you were able to use the de-escalation strategies you've been trained to use in trying to calm him down?‑‑‑I guess, like, you know, I haven't been in anything - a situation quite as severe before with a client. You know, we do deal with a lot of, you know, aggressive behaviour, clients that, you know, have dementia who can be quite, you know, abrupt, but I've never really, through work have, you know, dealt with something that's escalated to that point, so ‑ ‑ ‑

*** CAMILLA ANNE SEDGMAN XXN MR WARD

PN5230

That point?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5231

Do you have a - if you were ever in a situation where you were personally feeling unsafe, do you have a rule that says you have to leave the residence?‑‑‑Yes, well, you know, we get told, you know, if you don't feel safe, then leave.

PN5232

And have you ever personally done that?‑‑‑Yes, I suppose you could say I have. It was not long after I'd started working with the RSL, and I went to a client's house, who was a new client, and it was a brokerage client, so what brokerage clients is, is clients that have come out of hospital, which are brokered out to other providers to help them for the first six weeks after hospital. And (indistinct) broken leg, and the son was there looking after her, and everything was fine, I was talking to her, asking how she was, and he just out of the blue, just started screaming and yelling at me. Where he really didn't understand what I was doing there. He obviously didn't understand the procedures that, you know, that through the hospital they've sent me out there, and anyway he just - yes, he expected me to do things for him, and I said, 'I'm not here for you, I'm here for your mother', and then that just escalated, so I left, yes.

PN5233

And having left the house, is there a procedure about who you contact?‑‑‑Yes, well, I rang the office and spoke to them, and they were very, very good, because I was, like, shaking and crying, because it was quite an ordeal, and then they rang the brokerage people and let them know, and then I was, you know, followed up with my manager at the time making sure I was okay, and then they said, you know, go home, you know, and just make sure you're okay. Yes, and I didn't have to go back to work until the afternoon, so, I basically went home and had a cup of tea and all that, but, yes, it was followed up very, very well by the managers, and then they quickly got in contact with the brokerage people, Care Connect, so, yes.

PN5234

Thank you very much, Ms Sedgman, no further questions. Commissioner, thank you.

PN5235

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Ms Doust, any re-examination?

PN5236

MS DOUST: Nothing in re-examination, Commissioner.

PN5237

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Well, thank you very much for your evidence, Ms Sedgman. You're now free to go?‑‑‑Thank you very much, and have a great day.

PN5238

You too?‑‑‑Thank you.

*** CAMILLA ANNE SEDGMAN XXN MR WARD

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.29 PM]

PN5239

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: So, I'm not sure, it's Ms Ghirmire?

PN5240

MR GIBIAN: I might get this wrong again, but I think it's Ghirmire.

PN5241

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Ghirmire, good. Save me embarrassing myself.

PN5242

MR GIBIAN: I understand she's dialling in now. I think we're just waiting. I'm not sure there's more that we can do at the moment. She's actually overseas, but we did test it earlier today and it worked, so we assume that that can happen again, but I'm not sure there's more we can do to hasten the process.

PN5243

MR WARD: Commissioner, I'm not asking for an adjournment, but do you mind if I just move out of my room for two minutes?

PN5244

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Of course.

PN5245

MR WARD: Thank you.

PN5246

MR GIBIAN: I understand she's trying to log in now. We received a message back saying she's trying to log in now, so, as I say, I'm not sure there's more we can do at the moment.

PN5247

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Ms Ghirmire?

PN5248

MS GHIRMIRE: Yes.

PN5249

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Good morning.

PN5250

MS GHIRMIRE: Good morning.

PN5251

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Good afternoon from Melbourne. Can you hear me all right?

PN5252

MS GHIRMIRE: Yes, I can hear you.

*** CAMILLA ANNE SEDGMAN XXN MR WARD

PN5253

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Lovely. Well, I'm Commissioner O'Neill, and my associate is going to have you take the affirmation.

PN5254

MS GHIRMIRE: Yes, sure.

PN5255

THE ASSOCIATE: Ms Ghirmire, can you please say your full name and work address?

PN5256

MS GHIRMIRE: I'm Sanu Ghirmire, (address supplied).

<SANU GHIRMIRE, AFFIRMED [12.34 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GIBIAN [12.34 PM]

PN5257

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Mr Gibian.

PN5258

MR GIBIAN: Thank you.

PN5259

Ms Ghirmire, can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes, I can hear you.

PN5260

Excellent. Can I just ask you to repeat your full name for the record?‑‑‑Sanu Ghirmire.

PN5261

And you work both as a care service employee and as a recreational activities officer for United Aged Care?‑‑‑Yes, that's true.

PN5262

You've made two statements for the purpose of the proceedings. Do you have copies of those with you?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN5263

The first one I think doesn't actually bear a date but I think it was made around the end of March 2022 and runs to some 66 paragraphs over seven pages?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5264

2021, I'm sorry. Around the end of March 2021, I'm sorry, I think I misspoke. There was just one correction that we had to make to that statement. Can I ask you to turn to paragraph 53 on page 6 of the statement? You see there that paragraph 53 ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Fifty-three, yes.

*** SANU GHIRMIRE XN MR GIBIAN

PN5265

‑ ‑ ‑ appears under the heading, resident behaviour, and you refer to the fact that many of the residents can become at least extremely agitated and the techniques that are used in that situation. In the final sentence of that paragraph reads that, 'An example of this is explained at paragraph 36 above'. I think that should be a reference to paragraph 56 below. Is that - - -?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, yes, there is a minor mistake, let's correct it please.

PN5266

Have you otherwise had an opportunity to read through that statement?‑‑‑Yes, I did.

PN5267

Is it true and correct - with that correction, is it true and correct to the best of your knowledge and recollection?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5268

Thank you, Commissioner, that's the first statement of Ms Ghirmire that we wish to have in evidence. It's document 145 in the digital court book, commencing at page 10127. Ms Ghirmire, there's also a statement headed reply witness statement, dated 20, I should say, of April 2022, which is I think some 22 paragraphs. You also have another copy of that with you?‑‑‑Yes, I do have.

PN5269

Have you had an opportunity to review that statement?‑‑‑I did.

PN5270

Is it true and correct to the best of your knowledge and recollection?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5271

That's the second statement of Ms Ghirmire that we wish to have in evidence. It's document 146 in the digital court book, commencing at page 10134. Ms Ghirmire, can I just - there was just one matter I wanted to clarify. In your first statement you describe working both as a care service employee and then on the weekends as a - Saturdays and Sundays as a recreational activities officer?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5272

How many hours do you work as a care service employee during the week?‑‑‑Sixteen hours.

PN5273

Sixteen. Yes, thank you. Now, hopefully on the screen in front of you you'll be able to see one of the squares has Mr Ward in. He's going to ask you some questions now?‑‑‑Yes. Hello, Nigel. Mr Ward. I can't hear you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD [12.38 PM]

PN5274

MR WARD: Well, that's because I didn't have my microphone on, Ms Ghirmire?‑‑‑Yes.

*** SANU GHIRMIRE XXN MR WARD

PN5275

It happens occasionally. Ms Ghirmire, my name's Nigel Ward. I appear in this matter for the employer interest and having heard that you're - you're overseas now are you?‑‑‑Yes, I'm in Nepal now.

PN5276

I'm going to keep this very short, given that you're overseas. Bear with me, I'll cut it down as quickly - as much as I can. Do you have your - do you have your first statement in front of you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN5277

Can I take you to paragraph 12?‑‑‑Yes, 12, yes.

PN5278

You talk in paragraph 12 about doing your Certificate III and Certificate IV in Aged Care prior to commencing your employment in the industry?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5279

Can I ask you what led you to want to join the industry?‑‑‑At that time I was looking for some (indistinct) to stay in Australia. I was doing some babysitting job which was just casual. I was looking for job security and permanent job and some of my friends from Nepal, they were working in aged care industry, so that I thought to join aged care industry.

PN5280

When you did your Certificate III, where did you do your 120 hour practical part?‑‑‑I did in (indistinct) nursing home in (indistinct).

PN5281

Was there a practical component to the Certificate IV?‑‑‑I did Certificate III in 2013.

PN5282

Yes?‑‑‑And then I did Certificate IV on 2016, and then on 2016 I did some unit again for Certificate III because there was (indistinct) and then we had to do some units for Certificate III again, so I did together on 2016.

PN5283

Why did you go on to do your Certificate IV?‑‑‑I wanted to do medication, because I was working as care service employee only. I was doing only personal care, so I thought to enhance my knowledge so that I did Certificate IV. After that I started doing medication as well.

PN5284

Okay. So the Certificate IV allowed you to do medication rounds did it?‑‑‑Yes, that's true.

PN5285

If you can go to paragraph 13, you then say that you did an Advanced Diploma in Health Science?‑‑‑Yes.

*** SANU GHIRMIRE XXN MR WARD

PN5286

I'm sorry, I just don't know what's involved in that. Can you tell me what was involved in that?‑‑‑I'm sorry, Mr Ward, please repeat the question?

PN5287

That's okay. Can you describe to me what that qualification is?‑‑‑Which one, Certificate IV?

PN5288

The Advanced Diploma in Health Science?‑‑‑Okay. I wanted to study. I thought that I can change my profession, so that I joined the university - Western Sydney University, and then they suggested me to do Advanced Diploma in Health Science and I show that there was one unit on (indistinct). So I did study on that unit too, I told that I was already working in aged care and then I show that I can work as recreational activities officer if I completed that course. So that I did Advanced Diploma in Health Services.

PN5289

So, you were doing personal care work, you wanted to change your career into recreational and leisure activities?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5290

And you've done that course so you can make that change?‑‑‑Yes, I did.

PN5291

Having got that qualification, is that when you started to act as the recreational activities officer on the weekend?‑‑‑Yes, that's true.

PN5292

Am I right in saying that you aspire to become a full-time recreational activity officer?‑‑‑Yes, I did once I work as full-time recreational activities officer as well, for several months, and then there were many people interested to work as recreational activities officer and my manager called me in a meeting, and I went to see her and then she proposed to me to reduce my days as recreational activities officer. And then I said that's fine for me because pay was similar and I just thought it's okay, it was really - it was okay for me because in the beginning I thought that my pay will increase, my role will increase but when I work as a full-time I found that it was more pressure and the pay wasn't, so I thought it's okay I will work two days as recreational activities officer and two days as AIN, care service employee. So, it was mutual agreement with manager.

PN5293

Okay. Do you still want to move into being a full-time recreational activities officer?‑‑‑Maybe in another facility but not at the same facility where I work at the present.

*** SANU GHIRMIRE XXN MR WARD

PN5294

Okay. When you worked as a recreational activities officer, were you the only - are the only recreational activities officer there?‑‑‑No, we are three people there. We used to be three people and then still we had three people, because we have many residents, almost 136 residents but in one shift only two people work as recreational activities officer.

PN5295

Okay. And when you're working as a care services employee, who do you report to? Who's your boss?‑‑‑My boss is RN, registered nurse, who is in duty.

PN5296

Can you go to paragraph 17?‑‑‑Yes, in my first statement?

PN5297

Yes, please. Yes, please, if you could?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5298

You say in paragraph 17:

PN5299

I work in all areas of the facility.

PN5300

?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5301

Does that mean that you're on duty across the whole facility on a shift or does that mean at different times you work in different parts?‑‑‑Different time but sometimes when there is a staff shortage, I have to go and help in other area as well.

PN5302

Is there a particular part you work in more than others?‑‑‑Yes, we have got three area, hostel, nursing home and dementia unit. I usually work in nursing home and dementia unit. I usually don't work in the hostel but when they need and there is a staff shortage, sometimes I work there too.

PN5303

There too?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5304

Can I take you to paragraph 18?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5305

You're talking about care plans and it seems everybody does something a little different. I just want to understand what you do here. As I understand and tell me if I'm wrong in your experience, the - what some people have described as the nursing care plan is put together by the registered nurse?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5306

Initially and then there's a recreational or leisure care plan put together by the recreational activities officer - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

*** SANU GHIRMIRE XXN MR WARD

PN5307

Is that two separate plans, or in your organisation do they become one?‑‑‑We do like that. When I work as recreational activities officer I have to do that social and emotional support plan, that is, recreational activities plan, and then we have to do assessment ourself, and then we put in the system, and then a registered nurse look at that assessment and they put in a care plan. So that means that in the beginning we do our part and registered nurse finalise. But when I work as care service employee too we have to contribute a care plan. We don't do directly, but we have to share to registered nurse how is our residents, what they prefer, how there is routine, so we contribute all up, but we don't finalise the final assessment.

PN5308

So if I can just explore that with you a little bit?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5309

My understanding is that the initial care plan is right at the beginning when the resident comes in; the initial care plan is largely put together by the registered nurse and authorised by them?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5310

As the resident lives in your facility, you're going to be making observations on that resident. They might be observations about behaviour, they might be blood pressure, and whatever it might be, you're making observations?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5311

I understand some of those observations will be put in your progress notes and charted, won't they?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5312

You might actually observe something on a day, let's say you observed – you were showering a resident and you observed some bruising or a wound, you would contact the registered nurse immediately on something like that?‑‑‑Yes, we do, and then we do – we take their weight, we do BSL, that's available – yes, those type of things we do, and we report to registered nurse.

PN5313

Am I right that if a resident said to you, look, I don't want to be showered in the morning anymore, I want to be showered in the afternoon, you would tell the registered nurse about this and that might involve a change in the care plan?‑‑‑Yes, we do that.

PN5314

Yes?‑‑‑And we have to do documentation for that. That is extra work for us.

PN5315

I understand?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5316

Can I take you to paragraph 44?‑‑‑Yes.

*** SANU GHIRMIRE XXN MR WARD

PN5317

You talk in paragraph 44 about medications?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5318

I just want to see whether or not I understand what you do with medications. You don't administer Schedule 8 medications yourself, do you?‑‑‑No, we don't.

PN5319

So in paragraph 44, you're talking about when you go with the registered nurse to do the Schedule 8 round?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5320

And I'm right, aren't I, that let's say that the registered nurse was giving somebody an Endone pill, you need to be the second person saying, yes, that's an Endone pill?‑‑‑Yes. We have to go with them, because we are also responsible for that medication. We have to go with them, we have to check how many medication is there, how many medication we are giving. We are witness, but we are responsible (indistinct), and if there is a problem we are also responsible for the problem, so we have to ensure that we are giving correct dose, correct medication to the correct person, and then we have to sign as a witness and we go together, and then registered nurse give the medication, but we have to witness that residents are swallowing the medication. So we are with them all the time until they take the medication.

PN5321

Can I just – I haven't heard that before – are you saying that you have some responsibility for the Schedule 8 medications? I thought the registered nurse was responsible for Schedule 8 medications?‑‑‑They are responsible, but we are – when we go as witness, we are also responsible. If in the folder they have written that 28 medication is left, so we have to make sure that one medication has been given and then 28 is left. If there is 27, then we also have to be responsible, because we sign there. So not only registered nurse, we are also responsible, because we have to make sure that they are giving correct medication to the right person, yes.

PN5322

You're responsible that you've confirmed things are right?‑‑‑Yes, that is true.

PN5323

Do you also do Schedule 4 medications?‑‑‑Yes, we do.

PN5324

Tell me if this is how it works where you work. I assume the Schedule 4 medications are kept under lock and key somewhere?‑‑‑That's true, yes.

PN5325

Would you have the key?‑‑‑No. When we do medication round, the registered nurse comes and takes out that Webster‑pak they give us, and we have to make sure that we give that medication to the resident.

*** SANU GHIRMIRE XXN MR WARD

PN5326

So the registered nurse comes, gives you the Webster‑pak – let's say I'm the resident; let's say I'm the person you're taking care of – you would come into my room, you would have the Webster‑pak for me?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5327

Am I right that you would check that what's in the Webster‑pak for me is correct?‑‑‑Yes, we do. We do. There is a table we carry in medication trolley, and then we take medication chart, that is, primary medication chart with us, and then before giving medication we have to check in tablet in that system, and then we have to check primary medication chart and then Webster‑pak. When three things are similar, then we give medication. If there is a difference, sometimes they forget to chart in tablet in system, then we have to report to RN immediately. We don't administer medication until RN's advice.

PN5328

Some people have said that they have coloured pictures of the tablets to check the tablets off against. Do you use those as well?‑‑‑Coloured picture, for morning tea, for lunch, yes, we have that medication, yes, colour code. For evening, orange, something like that.

PN5329

Okay?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5330

In terms of administering the medication, if you need to crush up the tablet and put it in a custard or something, is that written on the Webster‑pak or is that written in your notes, the care plan for the resident?‑‑‑In the care plan.

PN5331

Do you access that care plan using an iPad or something like that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5332

I assume you have to visually see the resident swallow the medication?‑‑‑That's true.

PN5333

And then you log that they've taken the medication?‑‑‑Yes, we do that, and sometimes they don't take. If they don't take, we have to report to RN and discard that medication.

PN5334

Just a moment, if I can. Thank you, and I wish you well in Nepal. Thank you very much?‑‑‑Thank you so much, Mr Ward. Thank you.

PN5335

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Mr Gibian, any re-examination?

PN5336

MR GIBIAN: Yes. Thank you.

*** SANU GHIRMIRE XXN MR WARD

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GIBIAN [12.54 PM]

PN5337

MR GIBIAN: Can you hear me again?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN5338

Firstly, you were asked about your Certificate III and Certificate IV qualifications, and as I understood what you said, you indicated that you got the Certificate III I think in 2013 and the Certificate IV in 2016, is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5339

You also mentioned that you did some additional separate units in 2016?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, first Certificate III, yes.

PN5340

What were they?‑‑‑I have to check in my certificate, but where I did that Certificate IV they told that now you have to do extra unit. I think that is medication administration, something that – and then this assisted me to do extra unit and I did that.

PN5341

Yes, thank you. That's the re-examination. Thank you, Ms Ghirmire.

PN5342

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Ms Ghirmire, thank you very much for your evidence this afternoon and you're free to go. Thank you?‑‑‑You're welcome. Thank you so much. Bye.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.55 PM]

PN5343

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: All right, it's almost 1 o'clock, so we'll adjourn until 2 pm. Thank you.

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.55 PM]

RESUMED [2.00 PM]

PN5344

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: There's Mr Ward. He's hiding under the desk. Not your usual position, I hope, Mr Ward. Do we have Ms Youd? Are you there?

PN5345

MS K YOUD: Yes, I am.

PN5346

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Well, I'm Commissioner O'Neill and my associate is just going to have you take the affirmation.

*** SANU GHIRMIRE RXN MR GIBIAN

PN5347

MS YOUD: Yes, okay.

PN5348

THE ASSOCIATE: Ms Youd, can you please state your full name and work address?

PN5349

MS YOUD: Kristy Louise Youd, I'm not 100 per cent on my work address. It's Amy Road in Newstead, Tasmania.

PN5350

Thank you.

<KRISTY LOUISE YOUD, AFFIRMED [2.01 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GIBIAN [2.01 PM]

PN5351

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: All right, Mr Gibian.

PN5352

MR GIBIAN: Thank you, Commissioner. My name is Mark Gibian. Can you hear me?

PN5353

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: That's you, Ms Youd - can you hear Mr Gibian all right?‑‑‑Yes, I can, sorry.

PN5354

No, no, that's all right.

PN5355

MR GIBIAN: Can I just ask you to repeat your full name again for the record?‑‑‑Kristy Louise Youd.

PN5356

And you're an aged-care employee with Masonic Care Tasmania?‑‑‑Yes, I am.

PN5357

You've made two statements for the purpose of these proceedings - do you have those with you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN5358

The first of those is dated 24 March 2021, I think, and runs to some 83 paragraphs and over nine pages. You've got that one with you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5359

Have you had the opportunity to read it through?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

*** KRISTY LOUISE YOUD XN MR GIBIAN

PN5360

Is it true and correct to the best of your knowledge and recollection?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5361

That's the first statement of Ms Youd that we wish to have as part of the evidence. It's tab 173 in the digital court book, commencing at page 10554. You should also have, I think, Ms Youd, a statement, a reply statement of Kristy Youd dated 19 April 2022 running to some 76 paragraphs over onto the tenth page, I think?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5362

You have a copy of that also?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN5363

Have you also had an opportunity to read that statement through?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5364

Is it true and correct to the best of your knowledge and recollection?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5365

That statement, we wish also to be part of the evidence, is at tab 174 in the digital court book, commencing at page 10563. Ms Youd, you should also see Mr Ward in one of the boxes on the screen. He's going to ask you some questions now?‑‑‑Yes.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD [2.03 PM]

PN5366

MR WARD: Ms Youd, good afternoon. My name is Nigel Ward. I don't normally hide under my desk. I apologise for that. I'm appearing in these proceedings for the employer interests. I won't keep you very long this afternoon, I assure you. If I ask you a question you don't know the answer to, just feel comfortable telling me you don't know the answer, okay? Don't feel stressed about that. I don't know Fred French very well. How many residents does Fred French have?‑‑‑I think our capacity is 105. We've got about 90, roughly, at the moment.

PN5367

Is it broken into different parts or is it just one large facility?‑‑‑There's two wings upstairs and one wing downstairs.

PN5368

Are any of the wings secure dementia wings?‑‑‑No.

PN5369

I think you say that about 50 per cent of the residents have dementia. I take it you have a blend of high and low-acuity residents?‑‑‑Yes, we do.

PN5370

Are they grouped together based on their acuity or not?‑‑‑No.

*** KRISTY LOUISE YOUD XXN MR WARD

PN5371

Is there a particular wing you normally work in?‑‑‑Not particularly - just wherever I'm allocated to go to.

PN5372

So you could work in all three of them?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5373

So - I'm not trying to be silly when I ask this question - when you say you could work in all three of them, you're normally rostered to work in one at a time?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5374

Yes. You use the phrase in your statement on several occasions - you talk about, 'kitchenette'. Is there a central kitchen in Fred French?‑‑‑Yes, there is.

PN5375

What is the distinction between the central kitchen and the kitchenette?‑‑‑The central kitchen is downstairs. When the meals are ready - breakfast, lunch and dinner - they get brought up to the kitchenettes, to then be delivered from there to the residents.

PN5376

Are they put up - are they sent up in a lift or - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5377

I take it they're in hotboxes to keep the hot food hot, if it's hot?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5378

I take it - does the kitchenette operate like a servery?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5379

Would there be bain maries there for keeping the food hot or does the food go straight from the lift to the resident?‑‑‑There's no bain maries in the kitchenettes.

PN5380

Apart from receiving the food, are the kitchenettes used for any other purpose?‑‑‑Just if the residents want something to eat at other times during the day we prepare it for them there.

PN5381

Like a piece of toast or something like that?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN5382

Sorry, a cup of tea, those sorts of things - that's what the kitchenette would be used for?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5383

Do you have your statement in front of you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

*** KRISTY LOUISE YOUD XXN MR WARD

PN5384

Thank you. Can I ask you to go to paragraph 25?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5385

It's my understanding that you've got your Certificate III. You say there in paragraph 25: 'Masonic Care required me to have that qualification to start my casual job. There were existing staff who didn't have the qualification. New staff are now all required to hold at least a Certificate III'. Are there some staff to have more than a Certificate III?‑‑‑I'm not 100 per cent sure.

PN5386

Okay?‑‑‑I guess it depends on their roles.

PN5387

When you said they need to hold at least a Certificate III, what did you mean by, 'at least'?‑‑‑I suppose, like, for us carers it's yes, we have to have one as a carer, a Certificate III. You can also go up and get a Certificate IV if you want to.

PN5388

Is that a personal choice or do they have some jobs where they require a Certificate IV?‑‑‑That's a personal choice, as far as I'm aware.

PN5389

That's okay. Can I take you to paragraph 30J?‑‑‑(Indistinct reply)

PN5390

You say in this paragraph - you're describing your mornings. You say this: after you go to the fourth or fifth person who is abusing you, you can be quite stressed. You see that?‑‑‑What letter was that one, sorry?

PN5391

My apologies, Ms Youd - it's J?‑‑‑Yes, I can see that.

PN5392

You say later on in your statement right at the end: 'No one has been physically violent with me for a while but there are a couple of current residents who are verbally abusive'. Are you suggesting that you get verbally abused by four or five people every day in the morning?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5393

So when you say there are a couple of current residents who are verbally abusive, I take it you're saying there's more than that?‑‑‑I guess so, yes.

PN5394

That's yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5395

When you did your Certificate III, I take it that you were taught de-escalation strategies for when people were behaving like that?‑‑‑Yes, we were.

*** KRISTY LOUISE YOUD XXN MR WARD

PN5396

What sort of de-escalation strategies do you adopt when you're dealing with residents like that?‑‑‑Talk calmly, distraction - when they don't work then we leave the room, just give some time to calm down.

PN5397

Is it the case - have you ever been in an unsafe situation at work?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN5398

What is the procedure that your employer requires to be followed if you feel you're unsafe?‑‑‑I couldn't tell you.

PN5399

You've not been told by your employer that you are to leave the situation and remove yourself from something that's harmful?‑‑‑I'm sure I have. But I can't remember at this time.

PN5400

You just can't remember it?‑‑‑No, not at the moment - not on the spot, sorry.

PN5401

That's fine, that's fine. Can you go to paragraph K underneath J? Do you see paragraph K?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5402

You talk there about needing to prepare breakfast. Can you just explain to me when you might have to prepare a resident's breakfast?‑‑‑When the kitchen staff leave the kitchenettes, that's when we are required to prepare the breakfast for them.

PN5403

What sort of breakfast might you prepare?‑‑‑It could be porridge, toast, hot drinks - whatever the resident would like.

PN5404

I take it there is not a full kitchen in the kitchenette?‑‑‑No.

PN5405

Do most of the residents go to the central dining room or do residents stay in their rooms for meals?‑‑‑It just depends on the day - a lot of them do come out but a lot of them do stay in their room.

PN5406

If they do stay in their rooms, I take it that your evidence is you will take the food from the kitchenette to the room?‑‑‑Yes, we will.

PN5407

I'd be right, wouldn't I, that some of your residents will require assistance with feeding?‑‑‑Yes, they do.

*** KRISTY LOUISE YOUD XXN MR WARD

PN5408

That would be the role of a care worker, wouldn't it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5409

Was assisting residents with feeding part of your Certificate III program?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5410

If you go down to paragraph S, you say - this is after lunch, I think - 'At times after that it gets a lot slower-paced. One staff member usually goes home'. You then say in (u), 'During the afternoon we do paperwork.' How long does your paperwork take to do?‑‑‑It can take us half an hour or longer.

PN5411

What might make it go longer? If there's an incident or something like that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5412

Is your charting and your progress notes, are they all on paper, or are they on an iPad or a computer system?‑‑‑A mixture of computer and paper.

PN5413

Which ones are on paper?‑‑‑Heaps, lots of them.

PN5414

Which ones?‑‑‑You've got the hearing aid charts. I'm just trying to think – sensor alarm checks.

PN5415

Where do the paper ones go to after you've filled them out?‑‑‑They were in a folder.

PN5416

Your day-to-day progress notes, your observations on residents, are they electronic?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5417

Sorry, it's been a long day. Bear with me if I've asked you this question when I'm finished. Who do you report in to?‑‑‑Pardon?

PN5418

Who do you report in to? Who's your manager?‑‑‑Our initial reports, if we've got to report something, goes to the nurse in charge we're working under, and if it needs to be actioned further it will then go to the clinical nurse manager.

PN5419

Is the nurse in charge a registered nurse or an enrolled nurse?‑‑‑Generally enrolled nurse.

PN5420

Is the clinical manager a registered nurse?‑‑‑Yes.

*** KRISTY LOUISE YOUD XXN MR WARD

PN5421

When you're with a resident and you're doing observations, what would make you go directly to the enrolled nurse? What sort of observation - if you saw a resident with bruising on their arm, would you just write that up, or would you go straight to the enrolled nurse and talk about that?‑‑‑I'd go straight to the enrolled nurse.

PN5422

Do you do medications?‑‑‑No.

PN5423

You've never done medications?‑‑‑No.

PN5424

No further questions. Thank you, Ms Youd.

PN5425

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Any re-examination, Mr Gibian?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GIBIAN [2.16 PM]

PN5426

MR GIBIAN: Just one matter, Ms Youd. Can you hear me again?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN5427

You were asked about the persons who you report to, and as I understood your answer, it was that you directly report to a nurse in charge and then above them there's a clinical nurse manager?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5428

With the clinical nurse manager, who you indicated was a registered nurse, is that a single individual for the entire facility, or is there more than one?‑‑‑There's the clinical nurse manager. There's also a clinical manager, who is a registered nurse as well.

PN5429

Are they there at work at particular times of day?‑‑‑They're generally there from – between 7 and 7.30 in the morning until afternoon. I'm not sure what time they finish.

PN5430

With the nurse in charge, who I think you indicated is an enrolled nurse, is there more than one person who holds that position?‑‑‑Yes, there is.

PN5431

And is there a nurse in charge for the facility at all times of night and day, or only at particular times?‑‑‑There's generally an RN in the building 24/7.

PN5432

Yes. Thank you, Ms Youd. That's the re-examination.

*** KRISTY LOUISE YOUD RXN MR GIBIAN

PN5433

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Thank you very much, Ms Youd. You're now excused and free to go?‑‑‑Okay. Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.17 PM]

PN5434

MS DOUST: Commissioner, the next witness is Julie Kupke. Her statement is at tab 209 of the digital court book. That's page 11,479 for the record.

PN5435

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Yes. Is she here?

PN5436

MS DOUST: We think she's connecting now.

PN5437

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Ms Kupke, can you hear me?

PN5438

MS KUPKE: Hello?

PN5439

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Ms Kupke, you can hear me. Can you put your camera on, please? All right. You can hear me all right?

PN5440

MS KUPKE: Yes, I can. Thank you.

PN5441

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: My associate is just going to take you through the affirmation.

PN5442

THE ASSOCIATE: Ms Kupke, can you please state your full name and work address?

PN5443

MS KUPKE: It Julie Ann Kupke, and I work for Absolute Care & Health and their – just a moment - - -

PN5444

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Ms Kupke, you can give your home address if you don't have your other address.

PN5445

MS KUPKE: Yes, I don't have the correct address on me at the moment, I'm sorry. My address is (address supplied).

<JULIE KUPKE, AFFIRMED [2.21 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS DOUST [2.22 PM]

PN5446

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Ms Doust, are you bringing this witness in?

PN5447

MS DOUST: Yes. Thank you, Commissioner. Ms Kupke, it's Lisa Doust here. Can you hear me and see me on the screen?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN5448

Great. Now, Ms Kupke, are you employed as a carer by Absolute Care and Health in Victoria?‑‑‑Yes, I am. I'm employed as a disability support worker.

PN5449

Has that changed recently?‑‑‑Yes, it did change recently. It changed on 17 March and I was a carer and then they moved me to a disability support worker.

PN5450

All right. And have you prepared a statement for the purpose of the proceeding before the Commission?‑‑‑In what you're going to ask me?

PN5451

Yes, you prepared a statement for the matter before the Commission today?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN5452

And do you have a copy of that statement with you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN5453

Now, subject to the change that you just told us about, is that statement true and correct to the best of your belief and knowledge?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN5454

Thank you. I read that, Commissioner.

PN5455

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Right.

PN5456

MS DOUST: Ms Kupke, Mr Ward will now ask you some questions?‑‑‑Okay, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD [2.24 PM]

PN5457

MR WARD: Ms Kupke, can you see me?‑‑‑Yes, I - yes, I can.

PN5458

And you can hear me okay?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

*** JULIE KUPKE XXN MR WARD

PN5459

Ms Kupke, my name's Nigel Ward. I appear in this matter for the employer interest. I'm just going to ask you some questions if I can. Do you have your statement in front of you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN5460

Thank you. Can I just start with some general questions. Who do you report into - sorry, I should stop. When you gave this statement, when you gave this statement, who did you report into? Who was your - who was your manager?‑‑‑When I gave this statement?

PN5461

Yes?‑‑‑I gave this statement to the Health Workers Union.

PN5462

Yes, I know but at that time when you wrote this statement, back when you were a home care worker, who was your manager?‑‑‑My manager was Mitch Selman.

PN5463

What position does that person hold?‑‑‑Human resources.

PN5464

So, you didn't - so you reported to a HR manager, did you?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5465

Your company didn't have a team leader or a client case manager you worked with?‑‑‑No.

PN5466

Did your company employ any registered nurses?‑‑‑Yes, they do.

PN5467

I take it you didn't report to the registered nurse then?‑‑‑No.

PN5468

Could I ask you to go to your statement if you could. Could I ask you to go to paragraph 17 if you could?‑‑‑What page is that on?

PN5469

I think you'll find it's on page 2 of your statement?‑‑‑Yes, number 17.

PN5470

It reads as follows:

PN5471

I've also completed some free courses from the University of Tasmania. The courses I have completed are Prevention Dementia, Understanding Dementia, Understanding Traumatic Brain Injury.

*** JULIE KUPKE XXN MR WARD

PN5472

Do you see that in the statement?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN5473

Were you asked by your employer to do those courses or did you decide to do them?‑‑‑No, I did those courses myself for my own benefit in relation to the clients I was working with.

PN5474

Can I just ask the Preventing Dementia course, how long did that course go for?‑‑‑The actual course went over a few weeks. You had to tune into it. We did one part of it and then you had to tune into for, like, the next fortnight when you completed that, then the next fortnight.

PN5475

So, it was online was it?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5476

When you say you had to tune in, did you tune in to listen to a lecture or something like that?‑‑‑No, you had to - there was videos that you had to listen to, there was questions and a lot of reading that you had to do.

PN5477

Is it the same for the other two courses you did, something similar?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN5478

When you finished those, did you do an exam or an assessment?‑‑‑Yes, at the end.

PN5479

Did you get some qualification from those?‑‑‑You got a certificate to say that you had completed it and you'd passed.

PN5480

So, it was a certificate of completion was it?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5481

In the paragraph below you say:

PN5482

I'm required by Absolute Time to take regular online training.

PN5483

I take it that online training is company specific training, is it?‑‑‑In relation to the job, looking after clients, yes.

PN5484

Does that training cover things like manual handling?‑‑‑No, it doesn't really - not to that certain degree, no.

*** JULIE KUPKE XXN MR WARD

PN5485

What does that training cover?‑‑‑It's more probably about the aged care practices, looking after your client.

PN5486

How many modules or courses do you do a year of that?‑‑‑I probably - you have to do them each year. I've probably done at least 12.

PN5487

This year?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5488

Do they cover work health and safety?‑‑‑Yes, they do.

PN5489

Do they cover things like that bullying and harassment, things like that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5490

And you say in your statement they take between 30 minutes to an hour to complete?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5491

Which ones take an hour?‑‑‑Basically they all do because you have to click on the button and you have to do further reading, and you have to listen to like videos, yes. If you're going to do it properly and correctly well, you have to click on these areas to give you the full part of the course.

PN5492

When your statement says it takes between 30 minutes and an hour, are you now telling me it doesn't take 30 minutes?‑‑‑No, some courses are shorter and then other ones are longer.

PN5493

Okay. Right. Now, when your company takes on a new client, a brand new client, I assume that the client goes through an assessment process do they?‑‑‑In what - I'm sorry, I don't understand. In what relation to do you mean to that?

PN5494

When your client - let's say somebody rings up your company and says I'm entitled to a package, I'd like some domestic support in my house. Does your company undertake an assessment of the needs of that client?‑‑‑That's correct. They would send out a case manager to that client and assess their needs, and then that would go back into the office and then they would assess what type of person to send out to that job.

PN5495

So, you do have - you do have case managers in your business?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** JULIE KUPKE XXN MR WARD

PN5496

And does the registered nurse get involved in that or just the case manager?‑‑‑It would - that would depend on the type of client and what type of needs that that client needed. If they needed the nursing staff.

PN5497

So, if they had clinical needs it might involve a registered nurse. If they just had domestic needs it wouldn't?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5498

Thank you for that. Thank you for that. Am I right in saying that a care plan will be developed for that client as they're brought on and looked after?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5499

When do you first get shown the care plan if you're going to work with that client?‑‑‑We actually get offered the job through our mobile phones if that timeframe and if that works within your roster, and then you get allocated that job, and then that all comes up under your app before you first go out to that job.

PN5500

So, you'll be able to access through your app that client's care plan before you go out to see them?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5501

If it's the first time a client's being assisted, does somebody go out and do a risk assessment of their house to make sure it's safe?‑‑‑That's correct. That would be done by the case manager.

PN5502

Case manager, okay - I'm sorry if I haven't got this right: am I right that you do a mixture of personal care work and domestic assistance work?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5503

Yes, and that would just depend on the client, would it?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5504

Okay. I'll do both of them if I can, because there might be a difference. Let's say you were going to go and (indistinct) - you finish with the client. Where do you do your write-up of what you've done?‑‑‑At the end of the shift we have to write up our notes, which all goes through our mobile phone app. Then we send it in.

PN5505

Typically, what would be in that note that you've written up?‑‑‑In the notes, what I've actually done out there with the client that day.

PN5506

So if you had been cooking for the client you might write: 'Arrived at this time, cooked breakfast', things like that?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** JULIE KUPKE XXN MR WARD

PN5507

Is the same the case for personal care work?‑‑‑Personal care work, yes, that's the same - if I do a shower or toileting or - you write in exactly what you do.

PN5508

Okay, and is there a point at which you might make an observation about a client where you need to get in contact with the registered nurse or the case manager?‑‑‑That's correct. What I have to do is go through the channels and I ring head office and speak to a coordinator and I ask them to email the nurse or the case manager, if there is anything that I see that I'm not happy with while I'm on that shift.

PN5509

So if I gave you an example of showering a client and you observe bruising on their arms, that would something that you would report back straight away?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5510

Has there ever been a circumstance where you've needed a registered nurse to come quickly to assist you?‑‑‑When you say quickly, what do you mean by quickly?

PN5511

While you are still there?‑‑‑While I'm still there? While I'm still there by myself, my first response would be to call an ambulance because they'd get there quicker than a nurse, whereas if I need the nurse, I'd ring up and report that we'd have to send a nurse out.

PN5512

Later on - so if a client was struggling with their breathing, your procedure is to ring triple 0, is it?‑‑‑I would definitely ring triple 0 first, yes.

PN5513

That's fine. Now, do you have any involvement in medications?‑‑‑I do oversee the medications to ensure that the clients are taking their medications and if I see something that I'm not happy with, I report it straight away, if a client hasn't taken his medication from his blister pack or his medication because he's been hiding them, yes.

PN5514

A number of witnesses have described this as prompting medication. Is that what you understand you do?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5515

You don't actually give them the medication, you take it out of the blister pack, put it in a cup, or put it in their hand, is that right?‑‑‑Yes, I do do that as well.

*** JULIE KUPKE XXN MR WARD

PN5516

Do you have to verify, do you have to check that the medication is the one it's meant to be?‑‑‑Coming from the blister pack they're usually labelled Monday to Thursday, AM or PM. So you just take it from the blister pack at that point of time of day.

PN5517

And do you have to record that you've seen them take it in your record?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5518

I think you said earlier that if you saw something unusual, you'd report that. Does that report go straight to the RN or does it go to somebody else?‑‑‑I report that straight through to head office, which are our coordinators, and then they'd take it further onto the channels from there.

PN5519

If a client had written into their care plan that they wanted a shower in the morning and they told you they wanted to change to the afternoon, who do you communicate that to?‑‑‑I write that in my notes, just stating that that's what the client wants, and then I would also ring head office to advise them that instead of having a morning person out there you might be better off sending out an afternoon person.

PN5520

I take it that the care plan would then be amended and the person who looks after them next would see the amended care plan?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5521

Is there a procedure in place with your company that you use if you're in a position of harm? Do you want me to explain what I mean by that?‑‑‑Yes, please.

PN5522

That's okay, that's okay. Let's say you were in a home and the client you were dealing with was becoming aggressive and you were concerned for your safety - do you have a rule that you have to leave the premises if you are feeling unsafe?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5523

When you leave the premises, who do you call after that?‑‑‑Head office, straight away - (indistinct) left the premises.

PN5524

They will instruct you as to what to do, will they?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5525

Have you ever had to do that yourself?‑‑‑No.

PN5526

Just a minute, if I can. Ms Kupke, thank you very much for your evidence. Commissioner, I have no further questions.

PN5527

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Thank you. Any re-examination, Ms Doust?

*** JULIE KUPKE XXN MR WARD

PN5528

MS DOUST: No re-examination, Commissioner.

PN5529

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Thank you very much for your evidence, Ms Kupke. You're excused and free to go?‑‑‑Okay, thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.39 PM]

PN5530

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: I think next is Ms Wood.

PN5531

MS DOUST: Yes, Commissioner.

PN5532

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Do we have any information about Ms Wood's situation?

PN5533

MS DOUST: We think she is just attempting to log on at the moment, Commissioner. I'll just follow that up.

PN5534

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: I think she may have just joined us. Good afternoon, Ms Wood - can you hear me all right?

PN5535

MS J WOOD: Yes, thank you.

PN5536

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: I'm Commissioner O'Neill. My associate is just going to have you take the affirmation.

PN5537

MS WOOD: Okay, thank you.

PN5538

THE ASSOCIATE: Ms Wood, can you please state your full name and work address?

PN5539

MS WOOD: Jennifer Wood, and the work address is Uniting at (indistinct) Street, Springwood, New South Wales.

PN5540

THE ASSOCIATE: Thank you.

<JENNIFER WOOD, AFFIRMED [2.41 PM]

*** JULIE KUPKE XXN MR WARD

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS DOUST [2.41 PM]

PN5541

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Ms Doust.

PN5542

MS DOUST: Thank you. Ms Wood, it's Lisa Doust here. Are you able to hear me well enough there?‑‑‑Yes, I can't see you but I can hear you.

PN5543

If you see the table with four people along it, I'm second from the end. Ms Wood, are you employed by Uniting Home and Community Care Nepean as a support worker?‑‑‑Yes, that's right.

PN5544

Have you prepared a statement for the purpose of the proceeding before the Commission?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5545

Is that a statement dated 27 October 2021?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5546

Can I ask you - you've got a copy of that statement with you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5547

Is that right? Can I just ask you, would you just go to paragraph 46 to look at subparagraphs R and S, please?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5548

Is it the case that in paragraph R, where you referred to the 11.30 am client, that should be 11.30?‑‑‑That's right, yes.

PN5549

Then in the following paragraph, there is a reference to 11.30, a client you regularly see at 11.30. Should that be 11?‑‑‑That's right, yes.

PN5550

Subject to those changes as to the timing of those events, is your statement true and correct to the best of your belief and knowledge?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN5551

Thank you. I read that, Commissioner.

PN5552

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: All right. Mr Ward?

PN5553

MR WARD: Thank you, Commissioner.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD [2.43 PM]

*** JENNIFER WOOD XXN MR WARD

PN5554

MR WARD: Ms Wood, can you see and hear me?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN5555

Thank you very much. Ms Wood, my name is Nigel Ward. I appear in these proceedings for the employer interests. I'm just going to ask you some questions, if I can. Do you have your statement in front of you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5556

Sorry, I've just lost my place. Bear with me, Ms Wood.

PN5557

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Just while you're gathering your thoughts, Mr Ward, we're happily running ahead of schedule this afternoon. I'm just wondering if there's any use that we can make of the time. I noticed in the hearing plan that came through there was a need for Mr Barnes to – for some other date to be set. Perhaps you could just make some inquiries and see if – that might not be suitable to Mr Ward, who might not have had an opportunity, but if you just explore that, and Mr Ward, it looks like you've gathered your thoughts by now.

PN5558

MR WARD: I am, but I might just answer that very question, Commissioner. Given how we've been informed of this coming up, I'm not in a position to deal with anybody other than who's on the list today.

PN5559

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: No, fair enough.

PN5560

MR WARD: Ms Wood, sorry about that?‑‑‑That's okay.

PN5561

Am I right that you don't have a formal aged care qualification, or have I got that wrong?‑‑‑No, that's right. I don't have a Certificate III or anything.

PN5562

I take it that you contemplated that, but you've done your library qualifications instead?‑‑‑Yes. I started in early 2011 and, just off the top of my head, maybe that first year or two there were possibly some opportunities to do the certificate, but at that time I think it was even less than the $1.70 or something that I checked and put in the statement. I think it was even less than that above, and - - -

PN5563

You didn't (indistinct) - - -?‑‑‑Yes, so I didn't pursue it and I didn't have to at that stage, and if I did it, I wouldn't have been able to decline personal care shifts.

PN5564

Yes?‑‑‑Whereas I'm able to do all the other range of shifts, but not – just not personal care and medication assistance - - -

*** JENNIFER WOOD XXN MR WARD

PN5565

(Indistinct) - - -?‑‑‑ - - - that's required for that certificate. But I now have 11 years' experience, so - - -

PN5566

I understand that, which counts for a lot?‑‑‑Yes, (indistinct) qualify me just to do those sort of things, but that's all.

PN5567

I understand your evidence that you do domestic support work, but you don't do personal care support work?‑‑‑Yes, that's right. We basically all do the full range, which could be transport, shopping, meal preparation, domestic assistance, social support – we all do the whole range, but the added ones that sometimes people do as part of a service that includes shopping or domestic assistance anyway, they might start off with the personal care, or it might just be the medication assistance. So we're all the same, but there's just a handful of us on my team that are just minus those two tasks.

PN5568

Typically how long would you spend with a client doing domestic assistance? Is there sort of a range, or is there a typical - - -?‑‑‑They're either usually one hour or two hours, the actual domestic assistance services, yes. Occasionally that can include one hour – the service time can be broken up into segments. Occasionally it can be one hour of shopping and one hour of domestic assistance.

PN5569

You say in your evidence that you prepare meals. I - - -?‑‑‑That's just – yes.

PN5570

Every time I've asked this question it sounds rude, and I apologise, but you've not been trained to cook?‑‑‑No. Pretty much everything we do I suppose – my take on it is, in home care, is what you can no longer do yourself. So it's light domestic duties, hanging out washing, the ordinary sort of shopping you would've done, and if you're no longer able to get up and even heat a meal, or prepare a simple meal, then you can ask to have that when your care plan's – this is speaking from the client's point of view obviously – when it's initially being put together, they might say that's one of my priorities, or a son and daughter might say that's one of the priorities for mum. So therefore that might be either in the middle of the day, or it might be later in our working day, getting closer to a client's early dinner‑time. To, you know, cook – yes, I'm not trained in cooking, no, but one of the things that we have to do when we do the regular sort of online learning little test that we have to do on a regular basis, they include questions around food safety.

PN5571

Yes?‑‑‑So we were not taught to cook, no; in the same way we're not taught to clean or shop, or anything. It's just to the best of your ability, and to what the client wants, but they do of course have to make sure that we're preparing food safely.

*** JENNIFER WOOD XXN MR WARD

PN5572

I'll come back to those tests that you do in a minute. When you actually are preparing a meal, you're preparing what the client wants you to prepare from whatever's in their pantry, as it were?‑‑‑Yes, which we may have been involved in as well.

PN5573

Because you might have done the shopping with them?‑‑‑Yes, or another support worker on, you know, earlier in the week, for example, might have done the shopping. Yes, and so it also includes, whether we're rostered on for the meal prep or not in regards to food, we would also be checking the fridge on a domestic assistance – depending on what the clients like, if they're sort of on top of that not so much, but a lot of the time if you're sort of regularly accessing their fridge, that's another part of the duties that you should be – you need to make sure there's nothing questionable in the fridge in terms of dates and things like that.

PN5574

In terms of the eLearning programs you talked about, I assume given that they're called eLearning they're all online?‑‑‑Yes. That's right, yes. We used to have that sort of – when you'd look at the roster in the mornings, or the week ahead or something, they were quite often rostered on, but you know, instead of attending somebody's home, obviously you're attending the office, and they'd set up a computer for you and you'd do it there, but now we have to do that on our own phones, in our own time, and then I think there's a certain amount of hours that we have to have accumulated before we get paid for it.

PN5575

So you do them on your iPhone or something like that, do you?‑‑‑On a work‑provided Samsung phone.

PN5576

Okay. I take it you've got a certain number you have to do every year, and every year you have to do them, is that how it works?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, pretty much like that, yes. Yes, sometimes there seems to be new ones or different ones or – yes, some of them are sort of to do with regulations and things, and others are to do with daily practice, like things that sound simple but – like, handwashing, but there's, you know, specific methods, and of course with COVID it's even more – make sure that you get that right, whether you're using sanitiser or handwashing.

PN5577

And are they sort of video-driven when you do them? Are they, you know, like watching a video, or what are they like?‑‑‑They will have little elements where you have to stop and play a video, and sometimes that's frustrating because it doesn't work and then you have – and you decided to dedicate your evening to getting a couple done, and then you have to contact your team leader the next day to say I couldn't get any further with this one. Personally, I preferred it when you were rostered on to just come into the office and do it on the office computer, because there was help at hand for things like that.

*** JENNIFER WOOD XXN MR WARD

PN5578

Assuming it goes well and they don't freeze or don't fail working, do they take, what, 20/30 minutes to do each?‑‑‑On average, yes. It could be anywhere between 10 and 40 or 50 minutes really, yes.

PN5579

And it depends on the nature of the program?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5580

I think in your statement you say it seems to be around - about 20/30 minutes is probably a reasonable average?‑‑‑Probably on average, yes. Yes, some may be a little bit more, and then especially – there's a little quiz at the end and if you get that wrong you have to do it over and - - -

PN5581

You have to go back to the beginning?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5582

Okay. Well, I hope you don't get it wrong. Can I - I just want to understand some procedures if I can, and if you don't know the answer to these questions please just tell me. I'll be comfortable with that. Who's your boss?‑‑‑My sort of direct line supervisor would be my team leader.

PN5583

Right?‑‑‑So, she's the team leader - I believe when I started there was about 20 of us and then it crept up to 30 on the team. Now I believe there's 50 plus on our team. But there's still just the one team leader.

PN5584

Is that team leader a registered nurse or not?‑‑‑No, in this - she didn't have to have been but in this case she used to be a support worker herself.

PN5585

Okay. Do you have - I take it you probably don't come in contact with registered nurses because you're doing domestic assistance?‑‑‑No, as I say I'm not just doing domestic assistance. I'm doing all the services involved in home care except for personal assistance. I come across - I have to contact them, for example - I'm aware of who they are and when we used to have - we used to have what we called our all in meeting every few months, but since COVID we haven't had that. And they'd often be one of the RNs for our team present there. Otherwise I could email her. I need to be able to email her and at times - and I'm also trained to - if I arrive at a client's home they've got a dreadful wound or one that's not quite dreadful enough to call an ambulance immediately, I then need to - the procedure is I photograph that and send that to the RN. And also try - you know, and try and alert her to the fact that I've just sent that to her and I'm needing advice.

*** JENNIFER WOOD XXN MR WARD

PN5586

I think you deal with that in paragraph 55 of your statement. For instance, if you came to my house and I had a bad bruise, I take it you'd photograph that and send that to the RN?‑‑‑Yes, yes. I'd probably ask you a little bit more about it too because it's my call as to whether I need to call an ambulance or not.

PN5587

I see?‑‑‑But that's - yes, I mean if you'd just done it and it was a blow to the head or something, I probably would call an ambulance.

PN5588

So, if you were with a client and they were in any sense of stress or breathing problems, things like that, the protocol is to call an ambulance straight away is it?‑‑‑Yes, in that case I wouldn't hesitate, yes. And certainly falls I'm - yes, that's the procedure.

PN5589

But if you - sorry, if I can ask you about that. If you were preparing a meal and I had a fall, is the procedure to ring the ambulance straight away or ring the registered nurse?‑‑‑If you'd had a fall I'd call the ambulance.

PN5590

Straight away?‑‑‑Yes, and then I'd also be having to go through the process of reassuring you that it's not as dramatic as it sounds, you know, you won't have to pay for the ambulance. It's unlikely that they're going to want to take you to hospital because of course a lot of people no matter how injured they are or if they're conscious, they don't want you to call an ambulance because they don't want to back in hospital if they've just (indistinct) or, you know, whatever. But yes, they usually - so you have to sort of go through that process of gently talking them through it and say I'm sorry, I actually have to, it's part of the procedure, and it's highly unlikely they'll want to take you. Because I've seen, you know, paramedics walk in multiple times and they usually just reassure the client and they're quite, you know, compared to some of the things they go to, I imagine, it's - yes, it just means that then the client gets checked over as well.

PN5591

Yes?‑‑‑And I'll sort of use that as my argument in, you know, or in my softening of the blow, the explanation to the client as well. You know, tomorrow if you feel a bit strange or anything well still go to the doctor or call someone but, you know, hopefully this will reassure you because they'll be able to tell us how serious it is here and now.

PN5592

Those procedures you've just described and how you're to operate in those procedures, are they part of those annual training programs, or is that something you've just learnt on the job?‑‑‑I suppose I've learnt that along the way. I'm trying to think how I learned that. I know that that's been - I've been told that as a policy that if someone has a fall that's it, I'd be in trouble if I didn't call an ambulance. If I put in the notes, you know, that he'd had a fall and somebody just happened to read that several days later, I'd probably be in trouble because I hadn't followed the correct procedure there. But everything else is very sort of variable. Yes, but no, I don't think that's - that's not really in any of the kind of - - -

*** JENNIFER WOOD XXN MR WARD

PN5593

Training programs?‑‑‑Learning programs, yes. Training.

PN5594

And I take it that if you had a client who wanted to change the nature of their service, let's say that you were preparing food for them and the family said we're going to come in and do that now, what we'd actually like is somebody to clean the bathroom or whatever. Does that involve a change in the care plan?‑‑‑It should really, yes, yes, but if the client - the client had probably talked to me first of all, we're usually the first port of call.

PN5595

Of course, yes?‑‑‑We're like the conduit between the organisation and the client (indistinct) - - -

PN5596

So, how would you formally communicate that back to your - - -?‑‑‑At that point I'd probably try and get a hold of their - well, I still say coordinator but technically, I'm support worker, they're support adviser, so I try and find out who they're support adviser is. We've sort of had a little bit of a shuffle of change in that kind of order at work, but basically there's still somebody like a support adviser. I would try and get a hold of them to discuss it and I would also email them. We have to do both really. I try - ideally if I could get them on the phone while I had the client, I'd put my phone on speakerphone and explain that, you know, you can speak to, you know, Betty directly or whatever about this and she'll tell you what she's thinking. Because that may - I don't think it would be such a big thing if it was, you know, say it was social support rather than shopping or something. It probably still would be in the daytime but a meal prep which, you know, might have been rostered on at six or something or support worker involved, you know, that might involve a whole different, you know, change in the service time as well. In which case yes, that would involve rostering as well. So for that I would ask for help and I would also have to communicate that higher up.

PN5597

Okay. And if the care plan of a client actually gets changed, is it your understanding that one of the registered nurses will take care of that or is it somebody else in the management team?‑‑‑No, it would be the support adviser ideally, yes. But that takes a while to - sometimes it takes a while to get a hold of one actually and to follow up to sort of you know - sometimes they'll visit the person two or three times and say did they call you, and then I'll have to try again to call them or I'll try and give them another email to say did you get the email from Betty Smith or whoever, about - - -

PN5598

Sorry, I'm not trying to interrupt you. Is the support adviser a registered nurse?‑‑‑No, no.

*** JENNIFER WOOD XXN MR WARD

PN5599

So, in your organisation - in your organisation I don't need to be a registered nurse to change a care plan?‑‑‑Not at all, no, no.

PN5600

I'm not sure, I might have got your organisation into trouble with that question. I'm not sure. I'll move on?‑‑‑Well, they might be aware of anyway, unless perhaps there's - maybe the support adviser has to consult a care plan but - I mean has to consult and possibly a support adviser maybe consulting with an RN and I'm not aware of that.

PN5601

That's fine?‑‑‑Yes, yes, I know normally the care plan is set up at the beginning and that's something I read before I go in there but I couldn't really say how much an RN's been involved in that. But support advisers generally aren't RNs.

PN5602

Is it the support adviser who goes in and does an initial risk assessment of the home or is it somebody else?‑‑‑No, that's likely to be me.

PN5603

That's likely to be you. So you would take the risk assessment document with you?‑‑‑Yes, I've got copies in my car.

PN5604

That's okay, and you would check that the lights are working and the stove works and things like that?‑‑‑Yes, or - yes, or is safe, more likely. And that there's not, you know, rolled up rugs or mildew or there's a lack of handrails. It's very much about me as much as about the client.

PN5605

You being safe as well?‑‑‑Yes. Yes. So, when I - when I - - -

PN5606

And where does that go to after you've done it?‑‑‑I would send that through to the - probably my - I'd probably email it to my support - my team leader and the support adviser concerned for that client.

PN5607

And if you identified something on that that suggested the environment wasn't safe, what would the procedure be?‑‑‑Well, to be honest it'd probably - in my experience it would be a little bit slow.

PN5608

Okay. Look, I don't mind you criticising them, I think that's - - -?‑‑‑Yes, I don't mean that as a criticism of my employer but that can be very frustrating and stressful. We're very much encouraged to fill the - to be honest - to fill that form out in a way which doesn't create work unless it's really needed. But - - -

*** JENNIFER WOOD XXN MR WARD

PN5609

But have you put yourself in an unsafe situation?‑‑‑Well, for example, there is one that may not seem initially like drastically unsafe but there is one lady I visit who has a single bed against the wall. Now, I have to make that bed every time I go there. So that's a cumulative strain on the back and I find that very difficult and it's not on wheels or anything. It's actually on bricks at one end to give her a slight elevation. So I have to - yes, struggle with that a different way each time and at one point I did record that, just to see what would happen, as not being ideal, and nothing ever happened.

PN5610

I take it you find that very disappointing?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5611

That's fine, that's fine. Have you ever found yourself in a physically unsafe situation from a client?‑‑‑Not really - it's not usually the client. But there is a client I have at the moment that I feel very uncomfortable with her son. I don't like going there and I've noticed that the other support worker who goes on another day of the week doesn't seem to be going there any more but I'm in the dark about what's happened there, as I am with a lot of things.

PN5612

You give some evidence on that in your statement. Have you ever had the need to remove yourself from a house because you're in harm's way?‑‑‑No, not exactly - I've certainly felt uncomfortable at times. There was one man once who had a male friend and to be honest, I was suspicious on what they were doing at a computer in a bedroom. I think I cut it short. That was quite a few years ago. I just - - -

PN5613

You left early?‑‑‑As early as I could without causing - - -

PN5614

I'm just interested - - -?‑‑‑ - - - myself to get into trouble.

PN5615

You understand there to be a procedure that if you are feeling unsafe you're to leave the home?‑‑‑Yes, that is certainly made clear to us - if it's something really - if you just feel uncomfortable, that's sort of a grey area, I suppose. I mean, I've certainly - yes, I certainly know the procedure if there was something really wrong or threatening. There is even a code word that we use. I don't know how often it's been used. I try not to dwell on the fact that once I heard somebody use it and nothing happened.

*** JENNIFER WOOD XXN MR WARD

PN5616

I take it you say this code word - that is you call somebody and give them the code word?‑‑‑Yes, so I call work and get this particular name into the conversation and then they're supposed to pick up on the fact - you read between the lines of why I'm calling. Yes, other than that of course I would just leave. I always keep my car keys in my pocket or, I mean, you know - there's people that I've been seeing for years that that's the last thing on my mind. But it still feels it goes against the grain to put them in the sort of work basket that I walk in with rather than in my pocket because you just don't know if you might need to exit in a hurry. There are things like that we're told - we're told not to park in the driveway, partly in case we did have to call an ambulance so we never park in the driveway. But we would also park in the direction in which we head off in case we had to leave in a hurry.

PN5617

Yes?‑‑‑There are procedures like that that we're told about but yes, just being a little bit uncomfortable is much more of a grey area.

PN5618

I assume it's your call?‑‑‑In terms of - - -

PN5619

If you feel unsafe, you're the one who has to make the call, aren't you?‑‑‑Yes, if it was clearly a threatening situation, if there was someone being violent or aggressive or something like that, yes, no doubt about it. But I've heard arguments in homes with raised voices. I've witnessed a client hit his wife, things like that. It's not black and white. I'm not really supposed to go. Yes.

PN5620

Did you leave that situation?‑‑‑No.

PN5621

You'd made a choice to stay, had you?‑‑‑Well, I had no choice, because he wasn't threatening me. The time where I saw the client hitting his wife, with dementia - no, luckily another support worker had not long arrived and she - I was facing - I'd often heard this man raising his voice with his wife when I wasn't in the room, which I found very distressing so of course I wouldn't leave. There's no need to leave in those - I'm just taking note of what's happening, sort of thing, and putting it in the notes later and sort of observing, 'Is this something that's going to escalate, how often does he do this', et cetera, because it's very distressing knowing that the wife has dementia. But he seemed out of frustration to raise his voice more and more and I used to think, 'Why doesn't he get that she's not the woman she used to be? She doesn't understand what he's asking'.

*** JENNIFER WOOD XXN MR WARD

PN5622

Is that one of the situations when you ring your supervisor?‑‑‑Afterwards I did - no, I actually put in an incident and got - but in that case I didn't, no. There wasn't really anyone to call because I couldn't call that sort of a sensitive conversation so - there are times where I have stepped out of the home if I'm talking about a client and I don't really want them to hear. I can't remember exactly whether we called after. Luckily at the time I saw that particular client hitting his wife, luckily another support worker had not long arrived. She was there for the wife. I was there for the husband, because we were under their packages. She had a back to this - so I'd often heard this man raising his voice at his wife and I, you know, didn't like it, didn't feel comfortable and wasn't sure what to do about it. It's not always easy to get hold of a support advisor to discuss such things. You get to a point where you think, 'I couldn't a hold of them on Tuesday, I couldn't get a hold of them on Thursday'. I'm determined to get a hold of them this week, I want to talk to somebody about this because it's bothering me. Yes, but that particular (indistinct) violent towards his wife right in - right near us. The other support worker had her back to it but she saw my face. We were talking to each other about PPE or something and then she turned around and she witnessed the sort of - the last bit of it, which was good for me, actually, because I knew that someone was going to back me up and there was going to be two incident reports put in.

PN5623

But if you had felt personally threatened in that situation, you understood the protocol was to leave the house?‑‑‑If I felt personally threatened I would have left without a doubt, yes.

PN5624

Ms Wood, thank you very much for your evidence?‑‑‑Thank you.

PN5625

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Any re-examination, Ms Doust?

PN5626

MS DOUST: Yes, just a few matters.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS DOUST [3.10 PM]

PN5627

MS DOUST: Ms Wood, in that matter you were just talking about, where the gentleman hit his wife, you talked about trying to get a hold of the - I think support advisor. Do you recall that part of your evidence?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5628

Are you saying you weren't able to raise a support advisor at the time when you tried to call?‑‑‑I'm just trying to remember the exact details.

PN5629

You mentioned something about - you tried to get a hold of them on the Tuesday and then the Thursday?‑‑‑That - what I said, I was just using as an example. That quite often will happen, where I - because I'm going in from client to client, I just meant that as a general thing, actually, where if I can't get a hold of who I need to speak to on a day then I have to go to the next house and keep up because I have to be in certain places at certain times.

PN5630

Yes?‑‑‑In that specific case, I can't actually remember. I think maybe because it was late in the day I just was wondering if I've got that - did I say that in my statement, at which point I found the - got a hold of the support advisor. Sorry, I can't actually remember when I spoke to them off the top of my head because it was about a year ago.

*** JENNIFER WOOD RXN MS DOUST

PN5631

All right. Can I take you back a little further in the evidence you just gave, where you were talking about how you would deal with a client if you felt you needed to call the ambulance. Do you recall giving that evidence?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5632

You were asked about whether or not - I think a question about whether or not that was consistent with your work procedures and in your response you indicate you'd learned some things along the way, you knew what the policy provided if there was a fall and you said, 'Everything else is variable'. You used that term, 'variable'. Tell me what you mean by variable?‑‑‑I suppose that's where your own discretion will come into it a little bit more. Anything that - so yes, I'm quite responsible for making that decision. I mean, you're always going to err on the side of caution. But you can't just go calling an ambulance for nothing, so yes, at least I know with a fall where I stand, that that's, you know, whether they manage to even get themselves up, I'm not to get them up, and make them comfortable and concentrate on calling the ambulance. But other things, I suppose that's where your first aid training comes in as well, which I obviously need to keep up‑to‑date. Yes, if there's anything there. Like, I did have a lady – a client, which I've quoted in the statement, who was having a bit of an episode one day. I could have easily left day and not done anything, because it was so hard to detect that she wasn't quite right. It's only because I know her and – we're not the cleaning lady that's just in there pushing the vacuum cleaner, we're also engaging with them, and it took me a while to realise she's not just quiet today, she's not just in a mood; there was something just didn't feel quite right. So every so often I stopped and said: are you okay, tell me more about it, tell me how you feel, until I realised that she was communicating with me, she was still conscious, but she just wasn't (audio malfunction) that day when I've called as if is this overkill, am I overdoing this, but as it turned out she would have gone into cardiac arrest if I hadn't, because her blood pressure was through the floor it was so low.

PN5633

Thank you for your evidence – I'm sorry?‑‑‑That's okay.

PN5634

Thank you, Ms Wood.

PN5635

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Thank you for your evidence, Ms Wood. You're now excused and free to go?‑‑‑My pleasure. Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.14 PM]

PN5636

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: All right.

*** JENNIFER WOOD RXN MS DOUST

PN5637

MS DOUST: Commissioner, Ms Seifert, who was the next witness in the list, whose statement appears at document 198 in the digital court book, hasn't been required for cross‑examination but we rely on that statement nonetheless.

PN5638

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Yes.

PN5639

MS DOUST: And then the next witness is Ms Veronique Vincent, whose statement is at tab 212 of the digital court book.

PN5640

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: All right, and she's just dialling in, is she? We have lost the HSU. Welcome back.

PN5641

MS DOUST: Thank you, Commissioner. The next witness – I'm not sure whether you heard me before we were unceremoniously dispatched from the hearing, is Ms Veronique Vincent (audio malfunction) 212 of the digital court book.

PN5642

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Yes. We're just waiting for her to join us, I believe.

PN5643

MR WARD: Commissioner, can I just indicate that Ms Rafter is going to take this witness, and if I could just be excused while she does that.

PN5644

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Of course. Ms Vincent, if you can hear me, can you turn your camera on, please? There you are. I'm O'Neill C and my associate is just going to have you take the affirmation.

PN5645

THE ASSOCIATE: Ms Vincent, can you please state your full name and work address?

PN5646

MS VINCENT: My name is Veronique Vincent, and I work with Regis Home Care.

<VERONIQUE VINCENT, AFFIRMED [3.19 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS DOUST [3.20 PM]

PN5647

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Ms Doust.

*** VERONIQUE VINCENT XN MS DOUST

PN5648

MS DOUST: Ms Vincent, can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN5649

I'm just going to ask you a few questions. Is your name Veronique Vincent?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5650

Are you a home support worker employed by Regis Home Care in Mildura?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5651

Ms Vincent, have you prepared a statement for the purpose of the matter before the Commission, which is dated 28 October 2021?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5652

Do you have a copy of that statement with you?‑‑‑I do.

PN5653

I understand there's a couple of matters we need to correct in that, so if we can just go first to paragraph 2 of that statement?‑‑‑Okay.

PN5654

Should that read there – should that paragraph read that you've worked in the position for 13 years, not 11 years?‑‑‑Yes, 13 years this anniversary in March this year.

PN5655

Can I now ask you just to turn to paragraph 8 where you say you commenced working with Regis as a personal care attendant. Should that read 2009 rather than 2010?‑‑‑Actually, it is 2010. I went back and had a look. I actually applied in 2009 and I was notified I could start in 2010.

PN5656

Can I ask you just to have a look at paragraph 20, if you don't mind?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5657

In that third line there, should that be 'personal care attendants' rather than 'personal are attendants'?‑‑‑I'm a personal care attendant.

PN5658

Yes. Thank you. And if we just go to paragraph 30?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5659

Is this right, you studied for that Diploma in Dementia, but ultimately didn't complete that course?‑‑‑Yes, just - - -

PN5660

Now - - -?‑‑‑Sorry.

*** VERONIQUE VINCENT XN MS DOUST

PN5661

No, go ahead?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5662

Now, subject to those corrections, is your statement true and correct to the best of your belief and knowledge?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5663

And is this the case, that since you've prepared your statement some of the clients that you deal with on a regular basis have changed because they're no longer with Regis or they've gone into residential care?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5664

Was the statement true and correct, subject to those earlier corrections?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5665

Thank you. We rely on that statement, Commissioner.

PN5666

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: All right. Ms Rafter.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS RAFTER [3.23 PM]

PN5667

MS RAFTER: Hi, Ms Vincent. My name's Alana Rafter. I appear for the employer interest in these proceedings. I just want to get a picture of your work in aged care before I turn to your statement. So, you have worked in aged care for around 16 years, 16, 17 years?‑‑‑Yes, correct.

PN5668

You started as a personal care worker in 2005 with Mildura Council?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5669

And in 2010 you moved over to Regis Home Care?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5670

Thank you for that. And your qualifications, you have a Certificate II in Community Service Work, which you got in 2006?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN5671

A Certificate III in Aged Care in 2007?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN5672

You have a Certificate IV in Aged Care?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN5673

And a Certificate IV in Leisure and Health, both in 2013?

PN5674

---Yes.

*** VERONIQUE VINCENT XXN MS RAFTER

PN5675

Thank you for that. I'm now just going to take - I withdraw that. I just want to get a feel for who you report to and who you interact with in your work as a home care worker. Am I correct in understanding that you have a team leader that would be your direct person you would report to?‑‑‑No, we have case managers, what we're called, so every case manager has a certain amount of clients. So we refer to the client - sorry, the case manager referring to their particular client if we are servicing their client.

PN5676

Thank you for that. And if you encountered a problem during an appointment with a client, would you be calling the case manager or is there a call centre or who would you be calling as a first step?‑‑‑Okay. So, the first step if there was an incident or an issue, I would contact the case manager referring to that particular client. If it's an after hour issue regarding the same thing, it would be a nurse on-call who is employed with Regis. Because our office hours are from 8.30 to 5.00.

PN5677

If you - are you able to contact a registered nurse during the day or would you still as a first point of call go to the case manager?‑‑‑Okay, so we have an RN who is also a case manager, so if it was (indistinct) or medication I would actually ring them.

PN5678

Okay, excellent. Thank you for that, that's very helpful for painting the picture and getting it right in my mind. So thank you for that. I'm now just going to take you to some paragraphs in your statement and ask you some questions. If I could take you to paragraph 33. Do you have that in front of you?‑‑‑Yes. Yes. Sorry, just bear with me.

PN5679

(Indistinct) no worries, I just wanted to make sure you had it there?‑‑‑Yes. Thirty-three, yes.

PN5680

In that paragraph you refer to medication training with a registered nurse and I just wanted to ask how that's - first of all, is that conducted in-house by Regis?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN5681

And is it in - provided in a classroom like setting?‑‑‑Okay, so yes, and then we would have - go into the client and then do the actual - we do the theory but then we go into the client and actually do the task at hand to be marked off.

PN5682

Excellent, so the RN teaches you the theory and then the RN will accompany - with then observe you doing effectively what you've been taught to make sure you're competent at it. Is that correct?‑‑‑Correct.

*** VERONIQUE VINCENT XXN MS RAFTER

PN5683

Thank you for that. How long does the theory component usually take?‑‑‑Okay, so the theory part of it is probably about half an hour, because it's like a refresher every year. So, originally we actually did the actual medication course but every year we have to have the actual theory again. So, once a year.

PN5684

And the medication course, are you referring to the unit of competency as part of the certificate or is this a medication course provided by Regis at the start of the year?‑‑‑Yes, it's a medication course provided by Regis, so I don't actually have a certificate. It's in-house with Regis, so their medication set up, from my understanding, is different to if I went to another organisation. So it was something that was implemented probably two years ago.

PN5685

You refer to a refresher that happens. Is that the refresher that you - is that refresher also in person each year?‑‑‑With the coordinator, the RN?

PN5686

I'll take it back, sorry. That was - so, we were talking about the medication training provided by the RN and you noted that it's each year and it becomes a bit of a refresher. I was wondering if that refresher that happens each year is also in person with the RN?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5687

Thank you very much for that. I'd now like to take you to paragraph 35 of your statement, just on the next page?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN5688

Now, here you refer to compulsory e-learning with Regis?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN5689

I just wanted to understand how the e-learning is provided. Is it via an app, is there online modules? Could you just clarify that?‑‑‑Online modules.

PN5690

Do these modules - do they concern the individual topics usually that are - that I note you list in your statement?‑‑‑Yes, as in what we do in an everyday work environment. Whether it's occupational health and safety policies, procedures, that kind of thing.

PN5691

Thank you for that. Would these modules - do they typically take 30 minutes, or how long do they take to complete?‑‑‑They vary. I think they give you like an hour to complete it but depending on I suppose how quick you are and the process of how quick you go through the module.

PN5692

And do you get an email or a prompt throughout the year to complete these modules?‑‑‑We do.

*** VERONIQUE VINCENT XXN MS RAFTER

PN5693

So, it's not a set schedule. They just happen - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5694

Thank you for that. And for the content of these modules, if we take an example like manual handling, are you - I'm just trying to get a feel for what the module is. Do you just simply read the content and once you've read it, you've completed it or do you also get questions or quizzed on the content?‑‑‑We get questioned and quizzed and then we have to have a competency in the nursing home, which generally doesn't reflect home care. It reflects the actual nursing home.

PN5695

If you'd just expand on that. The competency in the nursing home, is that still on the online or is this now a separate in person?‑‑‑No, so the theory is done online and then we go into the facility, which is Regis, whether it's Ontario or Sunraysia and then we are put through the processes of using a lifter, how to get somebody out of bed. It reflects a lot on the residential and not so much on the home care. So what I'm trying to explain is it doesn't sort of allow for controlled environments. In a residential home you have vinyl floors, you have furniture spaced correctly so the carer can move around. In the home, it's their home, often it's a carpeted area. Often there's furniture involved, so you're manoeuvring around that. That has always been an issue saying that it doesn't actually reflect the home care setup. Also we get people in and out of cars, that doesn't reflect that. That's not shown in the actual - when you're doing that actual task. So, when I say that it reflects a lot on residential, it doesn't actually reflect in an uncontrolled environment. So, simple things like fly sheets, lifters that are used in the house, the home, as well as what they would be in the residential. The difference with using a lifter in the home is our protocol is we don't get them off the floor with a lifter, we ring an ambulance. So there is verifications.

PN5696

Thank you for that. Now since you started you mentioned uncontrolled environment. I thought - I'll just take you ahead in your statement to paragraph 90. Now, before you attend a client's home for the first time, it's my understanding that a risk assessment process occurs, is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5697

Could you explain that process to me?‑‑‑Okay - so initially the case manager or someone in that position actually goes in and is supposed to do a risk assessment and also check products like the cleaning services, domestic assistants, make sure that they have the proper cleaning things, vacuums that are working, et cetera.

PN5698

So they check the equipment that you would be using if you were attending there, helping with those domestic services there?‑‑‑They're supposed to, yes.

*** VERONIQUE VINCENT XXN MS RAFTER

PN5699

It's my understanding you also have a - you have access to a care plan before you enter into a client's home. Is that correct?‑‑‑The care plan is actually in the home in a folder that is provided by Regis. So you don't have that care plan on you, you have that care plan that's in the house.

PN5700

Would one of your first steps be to look at that care plan when you enter the home?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5701

Prior to going to that home, if this was your first time seeing that client, you would not have access to it before entering the home?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5702

With these care plans, is it common that the - it will include details about the home environment?‑‑‑No, unless there is a hazard and the case manager feels that it needs to let the carer know prior to going in whether that's an environment that might be somewhat risky - someone that drinks alcohol, someone that over-medicates. But that is not in their care plan. It's a very basic care plan.

PN5703

I sent through a document prior to today. Did you receive a - earlier today did you receive a copy of it?‑‑‑Yes, I did.

PN5704

So this is a - so this would be completely different to - this is an electronic care plan, so this is not the type of care plan you would see typically?‑‑‑No, I've never seen a care plan like that.

PN5705

I just wanted to give an example of what I was talking about with notifying something that might be in the home. So in the first line towards the end there's a notation that says, 'Be aware of the pet cockatiel'?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5706

Would notations like that be included in some care plans? I'm not suggesting everyone has a cockatiel but if there was something like that would you tend to note it?‑‑‑Yes, if it was a pet that was a bit aggressive, like a dog, which is very common, or if there was a cat that, you know, tended to like to run around your legs a little bit, so that sort of thing, if it stood out, yes. But if people or clients have pets that are generally outside they're not a concern. That's their home, so - - -

*** VERONIQUE VINCENT XXN MS RAFTER

PN5707

I'll take you back in your statement to paragraph 52, if I may? You'll see in the preceding paragraph, I should note, you give a list of the range of services that you may provide or typically provide in different appointments and at 52, you talk about - you're rarely providing just one task and if the care plan says it's a medical service you still might do some other services as well. Would it be correct to say that all of these services still fall within the scope of the client's care plan? So for example, if you were attending an appointment for a medical service that you also helped the client with the dishes, that would still fall within the general scope of the care plan?‑‑‑Yes, it can.

PN5708

You would generally be doing services that still fall within your qualifications?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5709

You always will be doing something that falls within your qualifications. I don't want to suggest that you're acting outside them. When you do your services, if they may not be expressly listed for that appointment, you would record it, I take it, in progress notes?‑‑‑We used to up until this year. Now we do not have progress notes. So there is no documentation in our progress notes as from this year.

PN5710

So just so I can understand - after a shift, you don't need to make a notation of or document what was done during that shift?‑‑‑Not anymore, no.

PN5711

If you have to give a mediation prompt to a client, it doesn't need to be documented on a medication chart or somewhere or is that - that's different?‑‑‑That's different - so if it's medication, we have to fill out an actual medication chart so there is documentation of medication. But in general, other things like domestic duties, personal care, none of that is documented anymore, unless there is an issue. Then we email to the case manager if there was a fall. Then we do that. But since the start of this year, and the introduction of our work phones that have just come in this year as well, that's why there are some alterations with my statement because we now have work phones where before we had our own private phone. So we receive our rosters and everything on our phones now but we do not document on the phone.

PN5712

Okay, so progress notes are gone but if there was, say, a significant change in a client's preferences or services that they wanted, I take it - and that would affect the care plan - that you just contact the case manager and that's how it would be dealt with?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5713

Thank you for that clarification. It's very helpful. I'd now take you to paragraph - I'm taking you to some of the subparagraphs in 66 so I might assist you with a letter and a page. So if I could take you to paragraph 66(h), letter (h) for Harry, at page 10?‑‑‑Okay.

PN5714

Now, at (h) you're talking about - I should give the context. This is for a client that is a FIFA service client. That's what you're referring to in (g). So a FIFA service client, is that a private client - one that's not part of the (indistinct)?‑‑‑It's the client that pays from their own pocket, basically.

*** VERONIQUE VINCENT XXN MS RAFTER

PN5715

Thank you for that. When you - - -?‑‑‑Sorry, can I just elaborate on that as well?

PN5716

Of course?‑‑‑It is also somebody that is actually contracted out from another organisation that don't have carers. So they contract us out so it's a FIFA service.

PN5717

Thank you for that. Now, you note in (h) that you're expected to clean the whole house. I wanted to clarify if that - when you're referring to that - if you're saying you now have to do work outside of the care plan?‑‑‑So generally yes, because I have been told that it's not just what is on the care plan, that within your work expertise you can do things outside the care plan.

PN5718

Who is telling - is that coming from the company or is that coming from the - - -?‑‑‑Managing.

PN5719

(Indistinct) Regis or is that coming from the client that is contracting this service?‑‑‑The manager.

PN5720

So your case manager?‑‑‑So I wanted to clarify that because our care plans are a lot broader now. They used to be more specific, as in you followed the care plan within reason if it was something like dusting or something like that. There was an incident that the client required someone to clean chicken droppings off the back. I questioned it, and I was told that within reason that that was in my job scope, that I was able to do that, irrelevant if it was on the care plan or not.

PN5721

Would you consider that to be work outside of the – so it's a fee for service – this is extra work that's not effectively included in that fee, that you're doing it on top of it?‑‑‑I don't understand the fee side of it, but as in from the carer side of it, our tasks should be inside, not outside. Putting on a sprinkler is a different thing, but cleaning up faecal matter from an animal should be another thing. We've got maintenance to do that sort of thing, but now it seems that carers are able to do that.

PN5722

I'll take you now to subparagraph – still in the same list – it's (bb) on page 13. Let me know once you have that open?‑‑‑Yes, I have it.

*** VERONIQUE VINCENT XXN MS RAFTER

PN5723

In the last sentence of (bb), you're talking about – it's a similar vein that you refer to wiping over a second bathroom and note that although you're not technically supposed to do that – am I understanding that that's because it's not included in the care plan again?‑‑‑Sometimes it is, and sometimes it's not, but as a general rule, if they've had family stay, out of courtesy I'm happy to go in and wipe over; not clean the shower, but wipe over the second bathroom.

PN5724

So it may not be specifically there, but sometimes you may do a little bit extra that's outside of it?‑‑‑Yes, if time permits.

PN5725

I'd like to take you to paragraph (uu). That's on page 16. It's still in the same list?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5726

In (uu) you describe a client as 'has a bit of OCD.' You don't have qualifications to diagnose OCD, right?‑‑‑Right.

PN5727

I'll take you to paragraph 104?‑‑‑Okay.

PN5728

Earlier we talked about a risk assessment that occurs before you go to a client's home for the first time, and I note you refer to 'no safety guards in place.' I wanted to find out, are you suggesting that you feel unsafe at times by saying that?‑‑‑Yes, sometimes. If I can elaborate on that?

PN5729

I'll - - -?‑‑‑He had – sorry.

PN5730

I was just going to ask you a question. It'll probably prompt your elaboration. Would it be fair to say an incident that might make you feel unsafe would be if a client was being violent or aggressive? I wanted to – does Regis have a safety protocol that you're to follow if that occurs, if you feel unsafe?‑‑‑Yes, and that's to leave.

PN5731

And after you leave, would you then call your case manager?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5732

I'll now take you to paragraph 108. At 108 you describe the work – you give your opinion that you're acting as an enrolled nurse without being an enrolled nurse, and thank you for setting out your opinion there, but just for clarification, you don't have a Diploma in Nursing, do you?‑‑‑No, I don't.

PN5733

I'll take you to paragraph 119. I understand, in a similar vein, you hold the opinion that you're a nurse's psychologist, et cetera, but when you say it, you haven't done a bachelor's degree for nursing?‑‑‑No.

PN5734

And you haven't studied psychology?‑‑‑No.

PN5735

So you wouldn't have a qualification to diagnose someone?‑‑‑No.

*** VERONIQUE VINCENT XXN MS RAFTER

PN5736

No further questions, Commissioner.

PN5737

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Ms Doust, any re-examination?

PN5738

MS DOUST: Yes.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS DOUST [3.48 PM]

PN5739

MS DOUST: Ms Vincent, can I take you back to paragraph 104, please?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5740

I think you were asked, Ms Vincent, about the sentence in there, 'There are no safety guards in place.' Do you recall being asked about this paragraph a little while ago?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5741

And I think you asked, 'If I can elaborate on that?' Do you recall giving that answer?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5742

What is it that you wanted to elaborate on about that paragraph?‑‑‑Sorry, can you just explain that again? (Indistinct).

PN5743

Yes, and I think you were directed to your reference in there to there being no safety guards left in place. After you refer to 'families leaving notes' about the tasks - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5744

- - - that they want done?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5745

When Ms Rafter asked you a question, you said, 'Can I elaborate on that', do you recall that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5746

I wanted to ask you what it was you wanted to elaborate on about this paragraph?‑‑‑Because every home is very different, so sometimes they're not always fixed or correct before we go in. So when I say safety guards, I mean that sometimes when they do the assessment, we have previously gone into that home without that assessment being fixed. So that's what I meant about that. So sometimes, even though they do the safety assessments, there have been many times that we've gone into the home that they have not been put in as yet, so we've actually had to wait for the safety guard even though we've gone in prior to that safety.

*** VERONIQUE VINCENT RXN MS DOUST

PN5747

Thank you?‑‑‑Does that make sense?

PN5748

It does. You recall right at the end you were asked about the paragraph where you expressed the view that you are like a psychologist, a hair stylist, a number of different occupations, and it was suggested to you that you don't have those formal qualifications. What do you mean then saying that in your statement?‑‑‑Yes, I'm not a nurse, but I trained in aged care specifically for aged care. So I'm not universal. I have trained to specifically look for observations to be a detective, to be a counsellor, to be there for that person, to be their advocate. I'm not a psychologist, and I'm there to listen, and I'm there to help them with their daily life. I'm not a nurse that gives medication, yet I give medication. I'm not a psychiatrist, but I sit there and I listen. I am an advocate. I advocate for them. I am not a businesswoman, but when I say that I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm not a nurse, I am an aged care worker who is specifically trained for that. A nurse is a universal person. I'm not.

PN5749

Thank you, Ms Vincent?‑‑‑And – sorry.

PN5750

I'm sorry, if you want to finish that answer?‑‑‑And I was just going to say no, I'm not a nurse, but I still have to give medication. I still have to take someone's blood pressure. I still have to monitor people. I still have to look for wounds in diabetics. So I'm all of that and probably at times better than a nurse.

PN5751

Thank you, Ms Vincent. Those are the only questions in re‑examination, Commissioner?‑‑‑Thank you.

PN5752

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: Ms Vincent, thank you very much for your evidence this afternoon. You're now excused and free to go?‑‑‑Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.53 PM]

PN5753

COMMISSIONER O'NEILL: All right. Well, we are done and we'll adjourn and resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning. Thank you.

PN5754

MR GIBIAN: Thank you, Commissioner.

ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY, 05 MAY 2022 [3.53 PM]

*** VERONIQUE VINCENT RXN MS DOUST

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

JOSEPHINE PEACOCK, AFFIRMED............................................................ PN4643

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GIBIAN................................................ PN4643

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD....................................................... PN4657

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GIBIAN............................................................. PN4724

THE WITNESS WITHDREW........................................................................... PN4734

HELEN PLATT, AFFIRMED........................................................................... PN4744

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GIBIAN................................................ PN4744

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD....................................................... PN4752

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GIBIAN............................................................. PN4842

THE WITNESS WITHDREW........................................................................... PN4854

MICHELLE LISA HARDEN, AFFIRMED..................................................... PN4859

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GIBIAN................................................ PN4859

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD....................................................... PN4874

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GIBIAN............................................................. PN4918

THE WITNESS WITHDREW........................................................................... PN4923

ANTOINETTE MARY SCHMIDT, AFFIRMED............................................ PN4937

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GIBIAN................................................ PN4937

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD....................................................... PN4962

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GIBIAN............................................................. PN5116

THE WITNESS WITHDREW........................................................................... PN5129

CAMILLA ANNE SEDGMAN, AFFIRMED................................................... PN5146

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS DOUST.................................................. PN5146

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD....................................................... PN5158

THE WITNESS WITHDREW........................................................................... PN5238

SANU GHIRMIRE, AFFIRMED...................................................................... PN5256

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GIBIAN................................................ PN5256

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD....................................................... PN5273

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GIBIAN............................................................. PN5336

THE WITNESS WITHDREW........................................................................... PN5342

KRISTY LOUISE YOUD, AFFIRMED............................................................ PN5350

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GIBIAN................................................ PN5350

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD....................................................... PN5365

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GIBIAN............................................................. PN5425

THE WITNESS WITHDREW........................................................................... PN5433

JULIE KUPKE, AFFIRMED............................................................................. PN5445

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS DOUST.................................................. PN5445

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD....................................................... PN5456

THE WITNESS WITHDREW........................................................................... PN5529

JENNIFER WOOD, AFFIRMED...................................................................... PN5540

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS DOUST.................................................. PN5540

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD....................................................... PN5553

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS DOUST.............................................................. PN5626

THE WITNESS WITHDREW........................................................................... PN5635

VERONIQUE VINCENT, AFFIRMED............................................................ PN5646

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS DOUST.................................................. PN5646

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS RAFTER.................................................... PN5666

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS DOUST.............................................................. PN5738

THE WITNESS WITHDREW........................................................................... PN5752