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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Fair Work Act 2009                                                    

 

DEPUTY PRESIDENT DEAN

 

C2021/3899

 

s.739 - Application to deal with a dispute

 

CPSU, the Community and Public Sector Union

 and

Commonwealth of Australia (represented by Services Australia)

(C2021/3899)

 

Department of Human Services Agreement 2017-2020

 

Sydney

 

10.00 AM, WEDNESDAY, 25 MAY 2022

 

Continued from 17/05/2022

 


PN937      

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Good morning, Ms Tandel.

PN938      

MS TANDEL:  Good morning, Deputy President.

PN939      

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Good morning, Ms Sekler.  Can you hear me?

PN940      

MS SEKLER:  I can, Deputy President.  Good morning.

PN941      

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  All right, thank you.  I think Ms Hudson was going to be the next witness, unless there's any preliminary matters that we need to deal with?

PN942      

MS SEKLER:  None from our side, Deputy President.

PN943      

MS TANDEL:  Nothing from CPSU either, thank you.

PN944      

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Thank you.  Do we have Ms Hudson on the line or are we able to get her on now?  She is the next witness, isn't she?

PN945      

MS SEKLER:  She is, Deputy President.  I think she might be on the line.  I can see an AH coming up at the bottom of the screen, which I expect might be her.

PN946      

THE ASSOCIATE:  Ms Hudson, can you hear me?

PN947      

MR HYATT:  I think that's myself, Aaron Hyatt.

PN948      

THE ASSOCIATE:  I apologise.

PN949      

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Is someone able to get Ms Hudson on the line?

PN950      

MS SEKLER:  We will arrange that.

PN951      

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Thank you.

PN952      

MS SEKLER:  Deputy President, might I just go on mute for one moment?

PN953      

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Yes.

PN954      

MS SEKLER:  We are just trying to arrange for Ms Hudson to be available.  She's certainly aware that it's on and we had understood that she is not just available but would be ready, so we hope that there's no unexpected technological issues.

PN955      

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Thanks, Ms Sekler, we'll just wait.  It looks like here she is.  Thanks.

PN956      

THE ASSOCIATE:  Ms Hudson, can you see and hear me?

PN957      

MS HUDSON:  I can.

PN958      

THE ASSOCIATE:  Thank you.  Please state your full name and your address.

PN959      

MS HUDSON:  Yes, it's Amanda Hudson, (address supplied).

<AMANDA HUDSON, AFFIRMED                                                   [10.04 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS SEKLER                                 [10.04 AM]

PN960      

MS SEKLER:  Deputy President, might I commence?

PN961      

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Yes, please.

PN962      

MS SEKLER:  Ms Hudson, you gave a statement on 18 March 2022 in these proceedings; is that correct?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN963      

Is there anything in that statement you wish to amend or alter or correct?‑‑‑No, I don't.

PN964      

Is that statement otherwise true and correct to the best of your knowledge?‑‑‑It is, thank you.

PN965      

I tender that statement, Deputy President.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                       XN MS SEKLER

PN966      

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Thank you.  Any objections, Ms Tandel?

PN967      

MS TANDEL:  No objections, thank you.

PN968      

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  All right, thank you.  I will mark that exhibit 14.

EXHIBIT #14 WITNESS STATEMENT OF AMANDA HUDSON DATED 18/03/2022

PN969      

Anything else, Ms Sekler?

PN970      

MS SEKLER:  I've just got a few brief questions and also I intend to tender two of those call data sheets through Ms Hudson.

PN971      

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Okay.

PN972      

MS SEKLER:  After that, I will hand over.

PN973      

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Thank you.

PN974      

MS SEKLER:  Have you read the statement in reply of Mr Nash dated 29 March 2022?‑‑‑I have, yes.

PN975      

Is there anything in that statement that changes your evidence?‑‑‑No, there wasn't.

PN976      

Have you read the statement of Ms McCauley in reply dated 31 March 2022?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN977      

Is there anything in that statement that changes your evidence?‑‑‑No, there wasn't.

PN978      

Did you produce two call data sheets?  I'm just going to refer to them one by one.  Did you produce a data sheet called 'SDPA Call Data July 2018 to February 2022, Pivot Correction'?‑‑‑I did, yes.  They were extracts from the data prepared by our data and analytics division.

PN979      

Could you very briefly explain what that data sheet was?‑‑‑So the call data 1 and the urgent payment?

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                       XN MS SEKLER

PN980      

Yes, and there's another data sheet called 'SDPA Call Data July 2018 to February 2022'.  Is that correct?‑‑‑Yes, so there were those data sheets.  So the SDPA call data is prepared by the data and analytics division.  We receive that on a monthly basis and it shows there total calls received within the period, looking at total calls across all queues.  So, there is a variation in the queues that particular service officers support, and then that is compared to the urgent payment data by site.

PN981      

That data comes from the business owner, they prepare that data monthly, and to provide a clear view of the urgent payment assessments, what we do is have a look at the total calls for a service officer and then make a comparison of the urgent payment assessments completed.  So, they might be urgent payment calls received across any of the queues or our main business line queue, so the indigenous services queue, or a specific urgent payment queue.  So, any urgent payment assessments that staff complete, they are captured.  It's based on the back end data when staff complete an assessment, so that could be a grant or a rejection.  So it's quite comprehensive, the data sets.

PN982      

MS SEKLER:  Ms Hudson, you used the word 'back end data'.  Could you please explain to the Deputy President what that means?‑‑‑Sorry, Deputy President, we have a lot of jargon within the agency.  So back end data basically means that there's a number of different screens.  There's scripts that are aligned with some of the work flows and they draw on different screens.  It looks at the coding.  So, it might be a rejection, it might be a grant, and that's the information that is drawn out and is presented in the data set.  So, it's, yes, very comprehensive, you know, it's very accurate.  We have had these reports in place for a number of years now, so I am very confident in terms of the data that is prepared by the various business owners and the data and analytics division.

PN983      

Ms Hudson, at paragraph 69 of your statement - have you got a copy of your statement with you?‑‑‑Yes, I'll just open that one.

PN984      

That's at court book page 207.  At paragraph 69, you refer to the volume of urgent payment work completed as a percentage of the total calls answered and you refer to the figure of 10 per cent.  Could you please tell the Deputy President about how that figure was calculated?‑‑‑Yes.  What we looked at was the total participants in the trial.  So, we looked at the total calls for each of the participants.  Then we had a look at the total number of assessments completed, so grants and rejections were included, and then we averaged that out based on all of the participants to provide us with that 10 per cent.  So, there was some variation.  Some service officers were as low as 2 per cent and, you know, there were a couple that were, you know, maybe a little bit higher, you know, 14/15 per cent, but the average was, you know, 10 per cent or lower in most cases.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                       XN MS SEKLER

PN985      

Ms Hudson, if you might turn over to the next page on your affidavit, and that will be court book page 208.  At paragraph 75, you refer to your analysis of customer aggression.  What, if anything, further can you tell the Deputy President about how that data was analysed?‑‑‑Yes, definitely.  So the agency uses advanced speech analytics technology, so it's been customised to identify Services Australia's specific language, so it provides automatic insights into customer interactions by providing intelligence about the conversations we're having, and we can have a look at trends in, you know, pretty much a real time environment.  So, we do have metrics that are set up so we can measure frustration, aggression, emotion, et cetera, so it's a real scientific approach.  It does incorporate call sampling to support calibration.

PN986      

There is, you know, a division for the agency which is specifically dedicated to this work.  It's cutting edge, industry-leading technology.  That's the tool that we use and we basically were able to narrow it down to a specific queue and a specific cohort of staff, which is what happened in this instance, to, you know, break down the metrics and then go in and do some call sampling to ensure that, you know, what we were seeing was correct.

PN987      

In addition to that, we also have a customer incident management system.  How that works, and this is something which is covered by all the staff for the agency in their foundation training, which is the, I think, six to seven weeks' training that all staff undertake, and it's a specific system, it's very straightforward to use, so they select what the, you know, customer is contacting in relation to.  So, in this case, it would be an urgent payment, and then that goes into that register and, at the end of the trial, I requested that from the division that supports that data, so we were then able to drill down on it and analyse what we were seeing there based on our trial participants.  So, it was two different approaches to support that, you know, accuracy and provide us with that confidence in the data that we were presented with.

PN988      

MS SEKLER:  Ms Hudson, when Workplace Research did interviews with a number of the participants in the trial, what, if anything, can you say about how those participants were chosen?‑‑‑Yes, sure.  You know, we're very keen to ensure an impartial and accurate assessment.  So, as part of the selection for those, you know, the key one was availability, noting it was a relatively, you know, small cohort of staff.  That was a key factor.  The interviewees were selected by the team leaders.  We were looking at, you know, staff that had a satisfactory baseline, just to ensure, you know, objectivity.  That was at the commencement of the trial.  Also varied lengths with the agency, you know, where that was possible, and, yes, they were the factors that we were looking at.

PN989      

No further questions, Deputy President.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                       XN MS SEKLER

PN990      

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Did you want to tender any of those documents, Ms Sekler?

PN991      

MS SEKLER:  Yes, thank you, if I might tender SDPA Call Data July 2018 to February 2022, Pivot Correction, and SDPA Call Data July 2018 to February 2022.

PN992      

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  All right.  So, the Pivot Correction, the first document, will be exhibit 15.

EXHIBIT #15 SDPA CALL DATA JULY 2018 TO FEBRUARY 2022, PIVOT CORRECTION

PN993      

The second document, which is SDPA Call Data July 2018 to February 2022, will be exhibit 16.

EXHIBIT #16 SDPA CALL DATA JULY 2018 TO FEBRUARY 2022

PN994      

MS SEKLER:  Thank you, Deputy President.

PN995      

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Thank you.  Ms Tandel, any cross-examination?

PN996      

MS TANDEL:  Yes, thank you, Deputy President.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANDEL                                     [10.17 AM]

PN997      

Morning, Ms Hudson?‑‑‑Good morning.

PN998      

Can you hear me?‑‑‑I can, yes.

PN999      

I have to apologise, I am sitting in a Zoom room with another Zoom room happening next door, as these things happen, so can you let me know if you hear anything or it's disturbing your train of thought, and I will find another room if that is the case.  I apologise?‑‑‑That's okay.  You can hear me okay?

PN1000    

I can, thank you?‑‑‑Okay, fantastic.

PN1001    

You have your statement with you, as I think we confirmed earlier?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1002    

Do you have access to the court book as well?‑‑‑I do have access to the court book, yes.

PN1003    

Excellent.  I will make reference to that throughout the cross-examination.  Can I just confirm to start with you are the assistant director and program manager of the portfolio operations in the customer service delivery division?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN1004    

You say you are responsible for several boutique programs, which includes urgent payments?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN1005    

This includes program manager responsibilities for the urgent payment service delivery operations and performance?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN1006    

In your statement, as the assistant director and the program manager, you were in charge of the urgent payment trial?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN1007    

So its development, implementation and operation?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN1008    

You would agree you have a personal stake in the matter in seeking to get the pilot over the line in terms of seeing its success?‑‑‑I guess, for me, my investment is more in the customer outcomes, which was the intent of, you know, progressing with a trial.  I strongly advocate for our indigenous customers, so, for me, you know, the right outcome for our customers and the staff supporting that work was critical.  So, whilst, you know, I was keen to, you know, to see the trial be a success, you know, at the end of the day, you know, I'm extremely committed to driving, you know, positive outcomes for our indigenous customers.  I hope that answers your question.

PN1009    

Yes, it does, thank you.  I can't speak on behalf of members, but I'm sure they also advocate for indigenous customers.  In terms of that, your statement at paragraph 12 - you don't have to refer to it - you talk about the APS3 service officers who participated in the trial, that they elected to participate?‑‑‑Yes.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1010    

But you would agree that the trial participants were selected by site, so there was three sites, Cairns, Batemans Bay and Bunbury?‑‑‑That's correct.  I think initially we identified that there were 98 APS3 staff supporting the indigenous services queue who were identified as potential participants.  Following consultation and discussions with the service managers across those sites, they put forward, I think it was approximately 53 staff, so I think that works out at about 56 per cent of the total APS3 cohort.  So, there were some staff that opted not to participate in the trial.

PN1011    

It is not your view that it was optional - sorry, it was your view that it was optional?‑‑‑That's right, yes, the agency does run a number of pilots and, you know, quite often, you know, there is that option for staff to elect to participate in a pilot and, you know, there was certainly a number of staff that were being performance managed or had other factors that, you know, in discussions with the team leaders, you know, the chose not to participate.  So, there might have been some were missing for a period of the training, they had leave, or just, you know, some that, you know, just elected not to participate.  So, yes, there was some variation across sites, I understand.

PN1012    

It was not the understanding of members that it was optional, but it is your view that it was optional?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN1013    

In your statement, you provide that urgent payments has historically been performed by the APS4 levels and higher.  You would agree with that statement?‑‑‑Yes, historically it has been completed at the APS4 level and also by our service delivery partners.

PN1014    

You would agree that the service officers' procedural manual, the operational blueprint, prescribes that urgent payments are assessed and approved by APS4s and higher?‑‑‑At the commencement of the trial, that is the case, but the OB has since been amended.  I think it now states suitably trained staff that have completed the full suite of urgent payment training.

PN1015    

In terms of the version that was provided for the proceedings, yes?‑‑‑Yes, so prior to the commencement of the trial, that is correct.

PN1016    

At paragraph 15 of your statement, you provide that an urgent payment is an early instalment of a recipient's regular social security entitlement payment, so that is that a lower subsequent payment will be provided to the customer on their next payment delivery date.  You would agree that there are risks with grants of urgent payment?

PN1017    

MS SEKLER:  I object.  Can Ms Tandel be more specific about the risks?

PN1018    

MS TANDEL:  Yes, sure.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1019    

You would agree that the risks are, in terms of the customer, the fact that the customer already faces severe financial hardship and the risk of the grant is to potentially put the customer into further severe financial hardship?‑‑‑I'm not sure 'risk' could be the right word.  I guess it's sort of weighed up in an holistic sense in terms of, you know, if the customer is needing part of that payment to attend, you know, an appointment.  Say they need to have like an emergency tooth extraction, you know, it's balancing that up, so that's sort of more of a risk for the customer.  So, yes, certainly a risk, but it's all relative, I guess, to the customer's circumstances.

PN1020    

Yes?‑‑‑And there are also, you know, procedures in place.  If a customer is making, you know, frequent urgent payments - in most cases, most customers are able to, you know, successfully self-manage with, you know, one or two urgent payments within a 12-month period.  So, in most cases, the risk is very low.

PN1021    

But there is a risk associated with urgent payments.  I won't use the word 'risk' in that case, but it adds - you would agree that the requirement for service officers to balance those factors adds to the complexity of those requests?‑‑‑Yes, I would say that it's, you know, on an equal par to other assessments that staff are already doing for customers in terms of a level of risk, so I wouldn't, you know, agree that it's a higher risk than for work that the staff are already doing.

PN1022    

Sure.  I suppose the difficulty is that we're not assessing those other types of payments, though, we are talking about the complexity of risk of the urgent payment?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1023    

Thank you, Ms Hudson.  At paragraph 15 of your statement, you refer to urgent payments being a decision that is made by the secretary or their delegate under section 43(2) of the Social Security Administration Act, and you would agree that that particular section, section 43(2), is not only for urgent payments but also includes other payments?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN1024    

At paragraph 18 of your statement, Ms Hudson, you talk about the delegations that are associated with different payments and you say that a delegation means the delegate or the authorised officer is personally accountable for the actions taken when exercising those delegations or those authorisations.  In the context of the urgent payments, you would agree in relation to the decisions to grant or deny urgent payment for indigenous customers who require a payment for funerals, that decision is the service officer's; is that right?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1025    

You would agree in relation to decisions to grant or deny an urgent payment for extraordinary or unforeseen circumstances, that any service officer is required to seek the approval of the payment from a TPS, regardless of if they are an APS4 or if they are a TPS or if they are APS3?‑‑‑That's correct.  For extraordinary circumstances where the customer has exceeded their two urgent payments within the 12-month period, they would require either TPS or team leader or equivalent level approval, that's correct, yes.

PN1026    

Regardless of their level?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1027    

You would agree that ultimately the decision is the service officer's, so they are personally accountable for the decision regardless of whether they first need to seek TPS approval?‑‑‑For the extraordinary?

PN1028    

Yes, the decision sits with the service officer?‑‑‑Yes, they would be the delegate.

PN1029    

You would agree a review of a decision of an urgent payment, even if the service officer seeks assistance from a TPS, that review decision is ultimately the service officer's?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1030    

You would agree that a review of decisions for payments is normally completed by a TPS or an APS4 or higher?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN1031    

At paragraph 24 of your statement, Ms Hudson, you say that delegations are not directly based on work value assessments.  You would agree there are different considerations relevant to determining a delegation and different considerations to determining work value and classification of duties?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1032    

Turning to some of the reforms that you mention in your statement, you say:

PN1033    

Since 2017, the first two urgent payment requests for extraordinary or unforeseen circumstances don't require verification.  However, any subsequent requests would need verification.

PN1034    

You would agree that the service officer assesses the request?‑‑‑That's correct, except for exceptional, so for the first two within the 12-month period.

PN1035    

You would agree that the service officer then verifies their assessment with the TPS or team leader?‑‑‑If they have more than the two within the 12-month period, so that would be extraordinary, then they would seek TPS approval and the customer would generally be required to provide evidence as well to support their claim.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1036    

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Sorry to interrupt.  Ms Hudson, is the 12-month period a calendar period or from the time that the first payment is made?‑‑‑From the time that the first payment is made, Deputy President.

PN1037    

Thank you.  Sorry to interrupt.

PN1038    

MS TANDEL:  You would agree in relation to that reform, there was no change to this process in the trial?‑‑‑No, there was considerable review of operational blueprints and training packages that this process had been put in place as part of the review and reforms.  I think the changes were implemented across 2017 and 2018, I think, in terms of the capability for customers to self-manage.  So, for the two claims within a 12-month period, customers were able to use either their telephony channel or the online channel to put through those requests and analysis shortly after reform indicated that, you know, a significantly high volume of their customers were able to successfully, you know, self-manage using those channels.

PN1039    

That was the review in 2017, but - - -?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN1040    

But in relation to the trial process, there was no change to the reform that was introduced in 2017?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.  So there was a working party to have a look at all of the operational blueprints and the training packages, so they were all updated, but there were no system changes, there were no policy changes.

PN1041    

At paragraph 59, where you refer to streamlining and simplification of the processes undertaken in preparation of the trial, you would agree that there was no additional simplification or streamlining to those existing processes?‑‑‑So there was streamlining of the operational blueprint.  That's what we classify as processes.  They are developed by our business process branch in collaboration with key stakeholders.  So, we led a working party to review all of those operational blueprints.  That incorporated our - we've got a specific indigenous remote servicing branch, so we've got, you know, a full holistic range over the review, so that all occurred prior to commencement of the trial.  So, there was some streamlining of the processes as part of that exercise.  That would have been shortly prior to the commencement of the trial, and that also incorporated a number of changes to the training package.  I understand we used - they created a number of VODS, there were also some de-identified - - -

PN1042    

Sorry, Ms Hudson, can you explain what you mean by that?‑‑‑Which element, sorry?

PN1043    

I didn't understand.  Did you say 'pods'?‑‑‑VODs, video on demand.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1044    

Okay?‑‑‑The agency does have a division dedicated to training.  We use industry standard resources, so video on demand, you know, steps staff through the process.  That was all developed prior to the commencement of the trial, so we had a complete review of all of those resources.

PN1045    

But you would agree, in terms of the assessment of those - I'll come back to that, that's okay.  At paragraph 34, you talk about the focus of the pilot was a simplification of processes for customers, and you would agree that the high number of transferred calls out of the indigenous service queue and the double-handling and termination of calls was a problem for the agency?‑‑‑Yes.  It is a focus that the agency now masterplan to make services simple, helpful, respectful and transparent for customers.  We are committed to engineering low effort customer experiences.  We also had, you know, significant feedback from APS3 staff supporting the indigenous services queue in terms of their frustration at having to transfer those urgent payment calls when they were already completing urgent payment assessments for, you know, public holidays, et cetera, already.

PN1046    

So, they already had that skillset there, so we've got a significant focus on first contact resolution, especially for our indigenous customers that are often contacting from remote communities.  So, it can be, you know, difficult for them to contact the agency, so it is critical, you know, that we're able to have, you know, timely outcomes for them and, you know, mitigate the requirement of them having to, you know, repeat their circumstances, especially in the case if it's a funeral.  There are already some cultural factors in terms of them potentially not wanting to identify the name of the deceased, so having to transfer, you know, that customer to another service officer, you know, can potentially be distressing for our indigenous customers.  That was definitely a key driver to support those outcomes for our indigenous customers.

PN1047    

MS TANDEL:  At paragraph 35, you say you hypothesised that APS3 service officers on the indigenous services queue would have the skills to assess and finalise urgent payments, but you would agree that capability and individual performance is not a measure of work value?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1048    

You would agree that having the skills to do the work well or very well is not a measure of the classification of the duties or the group of duties?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1049    

Just turning to the section of your statement about undertaking the work value assessment, you mention you have training in doing work value assessments?‑‑‑Yes.  A number of other portfolios that I have sort of held over time was the cashless debit card, so I sort of engaged in training prior to completing an assessment for that.  That was on the job training with staff that were, you know, very experienced in that space.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1050    

In undertaking the urgent payment assessment, just to confirm, you used the APS role evaluation tool, the APS3 and 4 job statement, the training plan, as well as the operational blueprint; is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN1051    

In terms of the operational blueprint, you mentioned that it's the agency's how to library for service officers?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN1052    

So it's the approved product to explain service delivery processes and sets out the instructions regarding how to make decisions?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN1053    

You would agree the operational blueprint is relevant to assessment and scoring of certain factors in the work value evaluation of duties, like knowledge guidance, decision-making and problem-solving?‑‑‑I don't know if it would necessarily be required for that.

PN1054    

But you would agree it is a tool that is used which guides the service officer in terms of the processes for undertaking urgent payments or any other payments; yes?‑‑‑I chose to refer to that in completing my assessment, but in referencing the framework and the tool, it doesn't highlight that, you know, that's a critical source to use.  That was just something that I elected to use for my assessment.  I think it sort of indicates, you know, interviews with people undertaking the duties, the manager, the role descriptions, et cetera, so generally - - -

PN1055    

But you do agree that you have relied on it heavily in terms of your reasoning for your work value assessment?‑‑‑I wouldn't say I've relied on that per se, it's more the fact that I am an urgent payments (indistinct) historically.  I do have that source of knowledge that I was able to draw on.

PN1056    

But you would agree you have relied on it heavily to distinguish your work value assessment to the CPSU?‑‑‑I wouldn't say that I've relied on the OB, that's more general knowledge that I have from my time in various roles supporting the program.

PN1057    

At paragraph 51, you say:

PN1058    

The role evaluation of the urgent payment assessment involves a service officer making decisions within clearly defined parameters.

PN1059    

And that the operational blueprint provides clear directives?‑‑‑That's correct.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1060    

Can I take you to the OB, court book page 447?‑‑‑Was that 447?

PN1061    

Yes, 447, thank you.  Page 447 is the section on urgent payment definitions and roles?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1062    

At the top of page 447, it provides that:

PN1063    

Unlike most decisions that staff make, urgent payment decisions can be very grey.

PN1064    

Can you see that?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN1065    

Yes:

PN1066    

For example, what one staff member believes could be foreseen, another may not.  In addition, due to the sensitive nature of these types of decision, all staff should support the decision made by the decision-maker.

PN1067    

You would agree that the issues identified in the operational blueprint about the very grey discretionary nature of urgent payments and urgent payments being unlike other decisions made by staff seems to be contrary to the views that you have expressed?‑‑‑I think there's a number of examples within the operational blueprint.  It might be under the resources tab.  So, the circumstances, you know, in which they would be very grey and would, you know, most certainly be in the minority, I guess that would probably align with the sort of complexity.

PN1068    

Certainly from, you know, an analysis in my role, the bulk of assessments are, you know, straightforward.  The customer has a funeral to attend, staff verify kinship, the customer provides details for the funeral, when it's on.  There's a register that they can verify the details.  They determine the distance that the customer needs to travel, and then there's tools to assist them in terms of, you know, the minimum amount to do that.  So, you know, the urgent payment decisions where there are grey areas would certainly be in the minority.

PN1069    

MS TANDEL:  That's not what the OB says.  It makes it very clear that - - -

PN1070    

MS SEKLER:  I object.  Ms Tandel should put the exact words of the OB.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1071    

MS TANDEL:  That's okay.  I take that back.  I will move on to my next question.

PN1072    

In relation to the work undertaken by service officers in the trial, at paragraph 64, you talk about the work that's undertaken by service officers on the trial requiring some judgment by the service officer based on information that is provided by the customer.  Can I take you to the OB again, so your attachment 12, page 418, Ms Hudson.  Attachment 12 is in relation to urgent payments due to exceptional and unforeseen or extraordinary circumstances, and there at page 418, it provides examples of circumstances that are not considered exceptional or unforeseen.

PN1073    

However, I note that this is not an exhaustive list.  It says quite clearly it is not limited to those.  You would agree that the service officer would use their individual judgment or their discretion to consider and assess other circumstances that are not listed on that list?‑‑‑I'm not sure if 'discretion' would be the right word in terms of the circumstances that the customers discuss.  They are generally quite clear in terms of, you know, they've been prescribed a prescription, a new prescription, so it is foreseen, you know, it's quite clear cut in most cases.

PN1074    

I will take you to 421?‑‑‑Are we able to go back to the previous question as well because I was just sort of having a look at that OB in terms of the grey areas and I just noticed it was taken out of context to what was stated in the operational blueprint because I think it states payment granted inappropriately.  So, in terms of the urgent payment decisions being very grey, it was in terms of a review of, I think, a decision, so not an initial decision.  If I can please just state that, I'm sorry, Deputy President, I hope that's okay.

PN1075    

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Okay, thanks.

PN1076    

MS TANDEL:  Thank you, Ms Hudson.  At 421 - again this in relation to extraordinary circumstances where the customer has already been paid two urgent payments in a 12-month period - it says:

PN1077    

When assessing a request for urgent payments, to determine the existence of extraordinary circumstances, staff should consider a number of factors.

PN1078    

As you can see, there listed are seven considerations.  You would agree that none of the seven considerations are mandated?‑‑‑What do you mean?  In what context do you mean 'mandated'?

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1079    

They are not mandatory, they are considerations that staff should take into - they are not specific or mandatory in terms of the service officer having to take into account each of those, they should consider those?‑‑‑Yes, like if the customer is in severe financial hardship, you know, we certainly shouldn't be assessing the urgent payment.

PN1080    

So you would agree some of those particular considerations require individual judgment?‑‑‑Not individual judgment per se.  It's clear to see if the customer is in severe financial hardship if they've got a history of urgent payment requests, for example.

PN1081    

You would agree that some of these require further information gathering?‑‑‑Again, no more than what staff would be doing with their normal day to day business duties on the indigenous services queue.

PN1082    

Thank you, Ms Hudson.  I will take you to page 423.  That's the table there for determining if a customer is eligible to apply for an urgent payment.  Step 1 requires the service officer to assess the customer's circumstances, and then step 6, if you scroll through, requires the service officer to investigate alternative assistance?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1083    

It says that, 'Forms of alternative assistance may be' - so it offers some examples, but, again, the list is not - you would agree the list is not exhaustive?‑‑‑Yes.  So, staff on the indigenous services queue are already discussing alternative assistance with customers separate to urgent payment, so that training is included as part of their foundational training.  So, if a customer is requesting an advance payment or a crisis payment that they assist customers with, staff are already assisting alternative assistance, which includes a referral to a community organisation, referral to the financial counselling.

PN1084    

Staff on the indigenous services queue can set up Centrepay deductions.  They can also have weekly payment discussions or, you know, referrals to a social worker for crisis payment.  So, the alternative assistance is already, you know, a piece of work that staff on this queue are extremely well versed in.

PN1085    

MS TANDEL:  But you would agree that those options - it's not an exhaustive list that's been provided there, so service officers may be required to explore other options given the situation of the customer that they are dealing with, depending on their location, the fact that this is, you know, an urgent issue, so accessibility and availability are going to be critical factors?‑‑‑Yes, generally - - -

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1086    

So it may require additional exploration?‑‑‑Generally, the options on that list would support, you know, the majority of cases for customers.  Anything sort of not on there, or if it is a really complex case, we would be expecting the staff would contact a TPS for support and the rest of those forms of alternative assistance would, you know, support the block of customers.

PN1087    

Thank you, Ms Hudson.  I will take you to page 427.  This is in relation to the table there at the bottom of the page:  'Make a decision about urgent payment.'  Step 2 provides, 'Is the customer experiencing severe financial hardship?' and step 3, 'Do exceptional and unforeseen circumstances apply?'  Then, under that heading, it says:

PN1088    

Each request must be assessed on its own merit.  While the customer may be requesting the funds for a regular expense, the reason the funds are now required may be due to exceptional or unforeseen circumstances -

PN1089    

and so on.  You would agree the fact that each request is assessed on its own merits requires the service officer to gather information, assess the situation on its facts and exercise individual judgment or discretion?‑‑‑Each assessment would be gathered on its own merits, although the examples and the reasons for customers making those requests are generally quite repetitive in nature.  So, you know, generally staff would be able to support customers using, you know, similar processes to what they have done previously, so a low level of complexity in terms of the assessment on its own merit.

PN1090    

But there is that level of individual judgment required?  If you are assessing a request on its own merit, there is individual judgment and assessment required?‑‑‑That would be assessed on its own merit, but it would be based on previous scenarios for other customers that would be similar.

PN1091    

Yes, okay.  Can I ask you to scroll down to page 429.  Step 5 requires a negotiation of the amount to be paid.  It provides that:

PN1092    

The amount is the smaller of the funds calculated by the system, the amount the customer requested or the minimum amount to meet the customer's immediate hardship or the maximum of $200.

PN1093    

It goes on to say:

PN1094    

Before offering an urgent payment, the service officer should consider how the customer will meet their regular ongoing expenses.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1095    

You would agree that this requires further information gathering and an assessment and judgment there?‑‑‑There are tools available for staff that are very easy to use in terms of, you know, establishing expenses, travel costs, et cetera, to support customers' needs.  The urgent payments script also indicates what the entitlement is, so that the process is very straightforward, so it's sort of minimal negotiation and, you know, it does stress there that it's the smaller of the available funds calculated by the system, so minimal - - -

PN1096    

But you would agree that the service officer requires to discuss the amount to be paid, which may entail negotiation?‑‑‑It would be minimal negotiation because we're going with the smaller amount.  So, it's not like the customer is getting that option to choose between amounts.  We are very firm in our training in terms of it being, you know, the smallest amount to support the customer's immediate needs.  From my experience, the negotiation required there is minimal, and that's sort of something that we look at on a regular basis using, you know, speech analytics and call sampling as well when we do our quality assurance exercises.

PN1097    

Thank you, Ms Hudson.  I will take you to page 437 of the court book.  This is the section on:

PN1098    

Make a decision when customer is applying for urgent payments due to extraordinary circumstances.

PN1099    

This is where a customer has received more than two payments.  Step 1 provides:

PN1100    

The service officer must establish if the customer is experiencing severe financial hardship in extraordinary circumstances.

PN1101    

Step 2 provides:

PN1102    

Evidence of extraordinary circumstances must be provided.

PN1103    

Under that heading it says:

PN1104    

The decision that extraordinary circumstances apply is discretionary.

PN1105    

You would agree that step 1 and step 2 require the service officer to apply their knowledge, judgment and limited discretion in applying the procedures?‑‑‑I'm just trying to see which - is that table 6, step 1?

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1106    

Yes, so table 6 and then step 1, determining if the customer wishes to proceed, about the service officer - sorry, I was reading in the middle of the page, the middle of that box:

PN1107    

The service officer must establish that the customer is experiencing severe financial hardship in extraordinary circumstances.

PN1108    

Then if you go down further to step 2, the step itself says:

PN1109    

Advise customer evidence of extraordinary circumstances is required.

PN1110    

But under that bold heading, it says:

PN1111    

The decision that extraordinary circumstances apply is discretionary.

PN1112    

?‑‑‑Yes.  So it is discretionary, but within clearly defined parameters, I think, going back to that earlier table where it sort of had an indication of what circumstances, you know, wouldn't be classified as extraordinary, so the scope in terms of the discretion is, you know, very minimal, as opposed to something, you know, more complex, which might take two or three hours for a staff member to make an assessment.

PN1113    

But you would agree the service officer needs to apply their judgment and limited discretion, that even if it is limited discretion, there is a discretion that needs to be applied?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1114    

You would agree if the customer is determined not to be in severe hardship and extraordinary circumstances, the service officer is still required to explore alternative assistance?‑‑‑Which section were you looking at there, sorry?

PN1115    

At the bottom of that section 2, step 2, 'No urgent payment is denied.'  Then it says, 'Explore alternative assistance with the customer.'  So, they would still be required to explore alternative assistance?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1116    

You would agree that this may require liaising with either internal or external stakeholders on either straightforward or moderately complex matters?‑‑‑Yes, and I think, as mentioned earlier, staff are already doing alternative assistance assessment on the indigenous service queue separate to urgent payments.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1117    

I think this is true that they do that.  However, the matters may range, as you just agreed, from being straightforward to being moderately complex matters.  So, liaising with internal or external stakeholders on moderately complex matters aligns with an APS4 work level standard descriptor.  You would agree with that?‑‑‑No, I think that alternative assistance is something which is done at the APS3 and at the APS4.

PN1118    

Yes, that is true, but, on moderately complex matters is at the APS4 work level standard descriptor?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1119    

Can I take you to the OB in terms of urgent payments to attend funerals.  At page 398, that's table 1, yes, the table 3, can I take you to step 4.  Step 4 provides that:

PN1120    

The service officer needs to investigate alternative assistance.

PN1121    

So you would agree - - -?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN1122    

Sorry, Ms Hudson?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN1123    

You would agree that the service officer is required to apply their - sorry, needs to assess and use their judgment to determine the customer's needs and requirements and, where relevant, to refer or link them to government community services?‑‑‑That's correct, yes, so that's part of their current role on the indigenous services queue.

PN1124    

Scrolling further down, down to page 402, step 13, 'Assistance with cost of travelling to the funeral.'  The OB says the service officer should consider one-way travel, but the service officer may use individual judgment to provide urgent - sorry, it doesn't say - but should consider one-way travel:

PN1125    

The service officer would need to use their individual judgment to provide urgent payment for two-way travel, depending on the location and if the customer can make contact with Centrelink.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1126    

Also relevant is mobile coverage; also relevant is whether landline is accessible, and also relevant is payment methods.  So, you would agree that requires some information gathering on the part of the service officer and individual judgment?‑‑‑Yes.  So, staff supporting the indigenous services queue receive comprehensive training in barriers and cultural considerations for customers, so they would already be aware of a number of these factors prior to urgent payment assessments in terms of the remoteness of some locations to support them with urgent payments.

PN1127    

Going to page 405, 'Making a decision about the urgent payment' - that's right at the bottom of the page - and then, going into the table at the top of page 406, step 2 there talks about negotiating the amount to be paid.  Again it provides that the $200 maximum amount does not apply for funerals; the amount is the smaller of the fund calculated by the system, the amount the customer requested, or minimum amount to meet the customer's immediate hardship, and again, before offering the urgent payment, the service officer should consider how the customer will meet regular ongoing expenses, require further information - so you would agree that it requires the service officer to gather that additional information about their regular expenses, make an assessment and use individual judgment?‑‑‑Which table is that, sorry?

PN1128    

Sorry, it is table 3.  It starts at the bottom of page 405 and then continues into page 406 of the court book?‑‑‑Yes, so that's correct.  That would sort of be in alignment with staff are also supporting customers who have debt arrangements, supporting them in determining, you know, what they would be able to afford in terms of the amount for fortnightly debt repayments, also with Centrepay deductions to support payment of those bills.  So, that's already something that staff are engaged in on a day to day basis.  That's really just an extension of that, you know, discussion and negotiation.  I think that sort of highlights that there with, you know:

PN1129    

Does the customer history indicate they are struggling to meet their regular ongoing expenses?

PN1130    

So, there's a number of reasons as part of, you know, day to day, business as usual, supporting the indigenous services queue where staff would, you know, consider their financial wellbeing, offer a weekly payment assessment.  So, much of this work is already being completed separate to urgent payments.

PN1131    

But in terms of granting an amount, there is a component there that requires negotiation of an amount?‑‑‑Yes, I don't know if it would be a negotiation of the amount per se.  Yes, it's minimal - minimal negotiation - so it really is, and it does state there that it's the minimum amount required to meet the customer's immediate need, which is generally quite low.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1132    

Thank you, Ms Hudson.  I will take you to my next question, which is just in relation to your statement.  At paragraph 66, you say that the service officer may seek support from their TPS, but you would agree that seeking assistance isn't mandated?‑‑‑Just for like a general enquiry sort of outside the extraordinary assessment that they need to seek that support?

PN1133    

Yes, for verification - sorry, for approval of the extraordinary, it's mandated?‑‑‑Yes, so it is mandated.

PN1134    

But, otherwise, in relation to enquiries, it isn't mandated?‑‑‑No.  So, as part of the foundation and technical training that staff complete, there's a section there on technical queue support and seeking that support and, you know, it does stress in there that the support is there for staff, as needed, to assist in building capability, in particular if they are moving into a new piece of work, so they can contact a TPS if they are wanting to get their thoughts in terms of their decision-making or wanting assistance with coding.  So, it's certainly, you know, something that we do encourage in our operations - - -

PN1135    

Okay?‑‑‑(Indistinct.)

PN1136    

Thank you.  You would agree that service officers are required to meet certain KPIs, including average call handling KPIs for different types of calls, as well as KPIs in relation to transfer rates with a TPS and - - -?‑‑‑Yes, (indistinct) from the customer service indicators within the agency and, you know, as the name states, they are indicators only.  So, the language that we use with our leaders is that those metrics are a starting point only and we always seek to understand.  So, certainly, if, you know, a leader might identify that a staff member has a high TPS usage, but if it was anything, you know, related to urgent payments, crisis payments, any of those specific pieces of work, it's certainly not something that we would performance-manage on.  The agency, as a whole, is very customer-focused; our priority is on holistic outcomes for our customers.  We certain drive more customer outcome metrics as opposed to looking at KPIs.

PN1137    

But you are aware that service officers are performance-managed in relation to those indicators, as you call them?‑‑‑I certainly, as the program manager for that payment, I certainly haven't been contacted by any leaders for support with performance management specific to urgent payments.  Generally, across programs, if it's identified that a staff member is having some challenges with a specific piece of work that's potentially having an impact on their performance, they would engage my team and then we have some specialist staff that we would get to provide that additional support.  So, it's certainly not something that I am aware of being a concern.  I think that's also supported by the low volume of TPS requests that we did have.  I don't have the data off the top of my head, but I'm sure it was under 2 per cent of urgent payment assessments they sought that support.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1138    

I suppose that takes me to my next question, and maybe it's not in your awareness, but it certainly has been raised with us.  KPIs, or, as you call them, customer service indicators, about average call handling and seeking assistance from TPS - maybe you won't be able to answer this question - you would agree that they could discourage service officers from seeking assistance from TPS?‑‑‑That hasn't been my experience.  As program manager, we do get along to staff forums.  There's one for service support officers, who assist technical peer support staff, and it's certainly not something that has been raised in any of those forums, it hasn't been raised in any of our operations meetings with leaders supporting teams with staff doing this work, and, yes, the data that's collected from staff supporting technical peer support certainly doesn't indicate that there is, you know, excessive use from any staff.  That's also supported by our speech analytics and core sampling where we can have a look at the transfers.

PN1139    

Ms Hudson, in terms of your awareness, I'm not sure whether you will be able to answer this or not, but I'll put it to you:  you would agree that TPS support may not always be readily available, that there can be waits of up to 15/20/45 minutes?‑‑‑I haven't been contacted by any leader sort of indicating that there have been any significant wait times for support with urgent payments.  Certainly whilst we were supporting a number of emergencies, such as the floods and COVID, you know, it does put extra demand, but, yes, certainly no concerns are raised with myself or my team in relation to delays for staff seeking requests for urgent payments.

PN1140    

Would you agree that delays in accessing support may impact service officers in seeking assistance?‑‑‑In my experience, no.  In my tenure as an escalation point, we will quite often attend, you know, daily stand up with frontline staff.  We are big on high vis, you know, really connecting with staff on the frontline.  So, if that was an issue, I would expect that we would have visibility of that.  Throughout the trial, I did also engage with the leaders from each site at a weekly meeting and, at that meeting, you know, we were up front in saying we were keen for any feedback on the ground, we put the offer out to come along to any local meetings with staff to provide an update, so it certainly was not raised at any stage during the trial.

PN1141    

Okay, not during the trial, but these are issues in terms of delays accessing TPS that staff have spoken about?‑‑‑I'd say that was, you know, probably more a point in time, maybe when we were in the peak of emergency management, certainly not something that I'm aware of currently.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1142    

Thank you, Ms Hudson.  I was going to ask you questions about the volume of calls in terms of the data, but Ms Sekler has already covered some of those questions earlier.  I was just going to clarify, when you are looking at the total assessments of urgent payments, you do that on the basis of the script having been run; is that right?‑‑‑It actually looks at the screen that is coded, so, even whilst staff should be running the script - that is what the process is outlined in the operational blueprint and also in training for staff - but in the instance that staff don't follow that correct process and do the coding manually, it is still picked up in the report from the business owner.  It looks at the actual coding on the screen, so, regardless of the script being run, we will capture that data, so it's, you know, quite a granular level.

PN1143    

Thank you.  So, in relation to the speech analytical data, you would agree that service officers raised aggression as an issue with urgent payment calls?‑‑‑Sorry, could you repeat that question?

PN1144    

You would agree that service officers have raised aggression as an issue with urgent payment calls?‑‑‑It's certainly a small cohort, I understand, in the consultation period.  It may have been something that was raised prior to the commencement of the trial, but certainly only by a small minority of staff, and that's sort of quite anecdotal, so it's not supported by the analysis completed of the broader data sets.

PN1145    

But you would agree that it is a reason, that it's important that urgent payment calls are maintained at less than 20 per cent of total calls?‑‑‑Probably not.  Like the customer aggression factor isn't the sole contributor for that, it's more in terms of, you know, the diversity of the work that staff do as well in terms of it's not so much the customer aggression, it's, you know, more sort of dealing with vulnerable customers, and that's where we look at, you know, crisis payments, advance payments, we look at the broad mix of work that staff do.  So, I wouldn't say that the customer aggression element is, you know, the deciding factor in terms of the 20 per cent figure.  The wellbeing of our staff, you know, is critical.

PN1146    

Going through your statement, at paragraph 77, you refer to survey feedback that you received while on the trial.  Are you able to confirm how many people participated in the survey?‑‑‑I don't have the figures in front of me.  I think it was 19 of 51 or 52 staff, so, what's that, just under a 40 per cent participation rate.

PN1147    

Yes?‑‑‑It was optional.  We did stress a number of times the importance of staff having a voice, and we sent a couple of reminder emails for participating, and that was the same during the consultation period prior to the trial in terms of, you know, really stressing to staff that we were keen to hear from our frontline staff, that our team are the conduit to service delivery.  So, you know, they're a critical key stakeholder in any decision-making that we make, and, you know, transparency is at the forefront of decisions, you know, hence the trial; we really wanted our frontline staff to be part of this process.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1148    

Thank you.  So you would agree that a service officer's willingness to continue to do the work based on their perceived capability is not a measure of the complexity of the work?‑‑‑Sorry, could you repeat that?

PN1149    

Yes, sure.  So, when they respond to the survey, service officers indicated their willingness to continue to do the work - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1150    

- - - based on their perceived capabilities, so their own view of their capability, but you would agree that that is not a measure of the complexity of the work?‑‑‑No.  Certainly, if they thought the work was, you know, consistently complex, I would imagine there would potentially have been more that would have got noticed as something that sits at, you know, the APS4 level, and I think - what was it - about 74 per cent indicated that a broader role of urgent payment assessments to all APS3 staff would support better customer outcomes, and 89 per cent found it satisfying being able to support customers with first contact resolutions.

PN1151    

But you would agree that is about customer outcomes, that's not about the level of the work that they are doing?‑‑‑No, no.

PN1152    

Okay.  I will take you to the part of your statement about the external report by Workplace Research.  At 85, you say you would align your score for management responsibility and resource accountability with a score by Workplace Research?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1153    

That is correct?‑‑‑That is correct, yes.

PN1154    

I am now going down to the CPSU work level standards assessment.  At 90, you say that the CPSU assessment overvalues urgent payment work and the duties are holistically considered with other business usual duties.  You would agree your role evaluation that you conducted in November 2020, which you completed with Workplace Relations, similarly was a role evaluation of urgent payment assessments?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1155    

At 92, you refer to other types of work that is undertaken by APS4s, which you say is complex, like income management and Jobseeker, but you would agree that we are not concerned with the other work that you mention?‑‑‑I think it's important to have that comparison to provide some context.  Those other work types that we would consider complex that are completed at the APS4 level, you know, might take three to four hours for that piece of work in terms of the level of complexity, you know, the discussion - - -

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1156    

But we have not had the opportunity to assess that work, so you would agree, if assessed, that work may very well have a higher score within the APS4 range?‑‑‑Possibly, yes.

PN1157    

At 101, you say that APS3 service officers should not be assessing urgent payments for customers experiencing domestic and family violence unless supported by a social worker?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1158    

Here I will refer you again to the court book, the operational blueprint, attachment 12 at page 416?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1159    

The operational blueprint states that if a customer discloses that they are affected by family and domestic violence, and then there, at the second dot point:

PN1160    

If the customer does not wish to claim a crisis payment or has recently been granted one, an urgent payment can be assessed.

PN1161    

So, you would agree a service officer can assess a customer for an urgent payment?‑‑‑Yes, so - - -

PN1162    

Even if they have disclosed - - -?‑‑‑Yes, so the context of my statement was that service officers are not supporting distressed customers experiencing family and domestic violence.  These customers would generally be transferred to a social worker in the first instance.  Some of the statements by the witnesses sort of insinuate that service officers would be supporting those customers, but, in all contexts with the agency, we have stringent triage processes in terms of family and domestic violence to transfer those customers to social workers to get that support they require at the first instance.

PN1163    

So, service officers would not be supporting those distressed customers was the point I was trying to make, but, although it does state in the OB that if they have already been assessed for a crisis payment, we can certainly explore that urgent payment.  But, it's an holistic picture, that if a customer is distressed, this family and domestic violence, they would be looking to connect them in with a social worker and then they would generally come back around and be transferred by a social worker to be, you know, really be supported in their interactions with the agency.

PN1164    

MS TANDEL:  Yes, but service officers do come across those situations?‑‑‑Yes.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1165    

Whether they need to transfer them to a service officer, or, as indicated by the operational blueprint, then they need to assess them for an urgent payment?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN1166    

Can I take you to some questions in relation to your assessment.  You would agree that a service officer on the indigenous services queue doing urgent payment work requires a knowledge of relevant programs, payments and services which are administered by the agency, including, probably, a narrower knowledge of those programs that affect indigenous customers?‑‑‑Narrower than APS4?

PN1167    

No, that's specific.  No, no, I just mean they would need that knowledge, they would need a knowledge of relevant programs, payments and services that the agency administers for that clientele?‑‑‑Yes, so all staff supporting the indigenous services queue have that comprehensive training within their 16-week training.

PN1168    

You would agree that they would also require a knowledge of government and community service providers and referral processes relevant to meeting customer needs, both straightforward needs and moderately complex and complex needs?‑‑‑That's correct, so both APS3 and APS4 staff complete the same training.

PN1169    

You would agree that service officers on the indigenous service queue doing urgent work may need to liaise with internal and external stakeholders on straightforward and moderately complex matters?‑‑‑Yes, they may.

PN1170    

You would agree that that aligns with the APS4 record of the standard descriptors?‑‑‑For the moderately?

PN1171    

Yes?‑‑‑Yes, that would only be in a very small percentage that it would be moderately to more complex.  Most of them are quite straightforward.

PN1172    

You would agree that service officers on the indigenous services queue who are doing urgent payment work require a knowledge of relevant policies and procedures for indigenous service work and, where relevant, legislation?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1173    

You would agree that these criteria align with the descriptors for the score of 8 that was provided by the CPSU and the Workplace Research consultant?‑‑‑Just looking at - what paragraph are you at in the - - -

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1174    

I don't have that.  In terms of the materials provided by Dr Petelcyzc, her assessment starts at 467 and her knowledge application score is on page 472?‑‑‑Yes, I agree with Workplace Research in that instance.

PN1175    

On the next factor in relation to scope and complexity, you would agree that service officers on the indigenous service queue doing urgent payment work would undertake tasks that range from straightforward to moderately complex to more complex?‑‑‑So the majority of urgent payment requests are straightforward.  With a bit more complexity, I don't understand how they get that score of 8.  So, the common scenario would be customers wanting to attend an indigenous funeral.

PN1176    

You would agree that urgent payment requests may relate to traumatic and distressing customer situations?‑‑‑That would certainly, as I have stated, be in the minimal.  Certainly the most common scenario is a customer wanting to attend an indigenous funeral.

PN1177    

But that could be distressing for that customer?‑‑‑Yes, certainly, if the customer is distressed as with, you know, family and domestic violence, you know, it's kind of that triage where we do have those questions that we ask customers to, you know, have a look at implementing with a social worker, but, you know, definitely, you know, as is supported by speech analytics, the majority of urgent payment requests are, you know, straightforward with minimal complexity and, you know, that would certainly be in the minority with customers being distressed.

PN1178    

Staff already have that training in terms of supporting customers, noting that they are currently completing crisis payments, the national health emergency, they're doing referrals to social workers for crisis payments for family and domestic violence.  So, staff are, you know, very well supported in terms of training to assist vulnerable  customers and, you know, specifically indigenous customers, the staff supporting the indigenous services queue, in terms of, you know, vulnerabilities, are experienced.

PN1179    

MS TANDEL:  So you would agree that the urgent payment requests can vary.  Obviously, as you keep saying, a common scenario is a funeral, but there are other situations that arise and they can vary?‑‑‑Yes, they can certainly vary.  They are certainly - as I stated earlier, with the speech analytics, with the advanced technology that we were fortunate to have at our disposal, there is that category, so we can look at, you know, customer frustration, distress, et cetera, so we can narrow down those calls to support, you know, sampling, so we can get an indication of what sort of volumes we're looking at.

PN1180    

You would agree that service officers on the queue are required to ascertain information from customers about their need and also about their financial circumstances?‑‑‑Yes.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1181    

And you would agree that the service officer is required to assess and use judgment to determine the customer's needs, requirements and entitlements?‑‑‑Yes, they determine judgment.

PN1182    

You would agree that, in appropriate circumstances, they may need to link or liaise with government and community services, or internal stakeholders, on those matters, whether they be straightforward, complex or moderately complex?‑‑‑Yes, as is the process.  It's not just supporting the indigenous services queue also.

PN1183    

You would agree this aligns with APS4 work level standard descriptors?‑‑‑For the alternative assistance, yes, that's something that would align with APS3 service officers as well.  I think that's in the service officer job statement.

PN1184    

Yes, but for moderately complex and complex matters, they are not just straightforward, routine questions, but - - -?‑‑‑Yes, if it's a complex one, the staff would engage a TPS.

PN1185    

You would agree that service officers on the indigenous service queue doing urgent payment work make some decisions with some autonomy that relate to their role and area of speciality, but supervision is generally limited to work of moderate complexity; you would agree with that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1186    

And you would agree that this aligns with the APS4 work level standards descriptor?‑‑‑The moderate complexity?

PN1187    

That supervision is generally limited to work of moderate complexity, yes, otherwise, the service officer operates quite autonomously?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1188    

Just going to the areas on guidance and decision-making, I think some of those questions you have already answered about a service officer working quite autonomously and general supervision being, you know, limited to areas of moderate complexity.  Just in terms of KPIs, you would agree that KPIs refer to both quality and quantity, so quantity of calls that they take, I suppose, and the quality of the calls that they take?‑‑‑Yes, we look at productivity and quality, yes.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1189    

And both of those are regularly monitored and assessed?‑‑‑When it comes to urgent payments, as I said earlier, we know that customer service indicators are indicators only that our leaders seek to understand.  So, certainly, you know, when it comes to the sort of holistic servicing, it's not something that we sort of drive in our operations meetings with our leaders, like we don't look at the average handling times of a length of a call.  Our priority is on our customers and, you know, driving those positive customer outcomes and experiences, you know, with first contact resolution our priority.

PN1190    

Yes?‑‑‑So we ask our leaders - - -

PN1191    

But you are aware that team leaders would maybe drive some of those issues about adherence to average call handling and adherence regarding those customer service indicators, even though it might not be your priority?‑‑‑Yes, we - - -

PN1192    

Because service operators are assessed in relation to their adherence to those customer service indicators?‑‑‑We facilitate performance scrums, where I'd look at the customer service indicators, or KPIs, you know, and it's certainly not a concern that has been raised by leaders and, as I mentioned earlier, we do stress at those forums and all the forums that, you know, our priority is on customer outcomes.

PN1193    

There is facility for leaders to, you know, document and coach in, et cetera, you know, what impacts there may be on performance, but certainly I'm not aware of any sort of performance management for staff, you know, specifically due to urgent payments, and I would expect that that would be something that my team would be engaged in because we work very closely, you know, with all sites across the division supporting this work to provide them, you know, in building capability if there are any sort of learning gaps identified.

PN1194    

MS TANDEL:  You are not aware of service officers being coached in relation to their non-adherence with average call handling KPIs?‑‑‑No.

PN1195    

So, it may happen, but you are not aware of it?‑‑‑As an operations team - we have carriage of that portfolio - it's certainly something that we would have visibility of.  I know we do across other programs, if there are concerns, but it is certainly not something that has been raised for urgent payments specifically.

PN1196    

In relation to the decisions of urgent payments, you would agree that the service officer is personally accountable for the urgent payment decision and that - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1197    

Sorry, I will ask that question again.  I got a bit muddled up.  You would agree that a service officer is personally accountable in relation to an urgent payment decision?‑‑‑Yes, in the case of extraordinary, that would be in consultation with either a TPS or a team leader or equivalent level.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1198    

And that an urgent payment decision is reviewable?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN1199    

You would agree that the operational blueprint for urgent payment sets out considerations that a service officer should take into account in assessing urgent payment requests but does not prescribe specific requirements at each step?‑‑‑I think it really depends on which - some elements do have specific requirements.  You know, we do reinforce for staff that it's critical that they follow the operational blueprint in each instance when they are supporting a customer.  So, there's certainly, you know, some elements, or most elements, you know clearly set out the parameters for making a decision.

PN1200    

Yes, but not all prescribe specific requirements, so there is some individual judgment and assessment required?‑‑‑Very minimal.  The operational blueprint is quite comprehensive.  In terms of the steps, it breaks it down to the table, it breaks it down to step by step, so it's, you know, quite specific in terms of the steps to take.

PN1201    

You would agree that a service officer's decision to grant or deny an urgent payment has flow-on effects for a customer?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1202    

You would agree that service officers' participation in the trial and their actions impacted the agency's service delivery?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1203    

In terms of problem-solving - I think some of these questions I have covered with you before, so I'll skip to the ones that I have left - you would agree that service officers assessing urgent payments includes problem-solving elements to explore options with internal and/or external stakeholders?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1204    

You would agree that service officers who were participating in the trial may not have had a bank of past experience on which to rely to resolve customer problems?‑‑‑I think staff were already proficient in supporting the indigenous services queues.  They are already providing assistance with alternative assistance, advance payments, crisis payments, the Australian Government disaster payments.  So, there was certainly, you know, a significant crossover from work that this cohort was already completing.

PN1205    

Yes, but there would be areas where some of those circumstances would not have arisen, so they wouldn't have a full bank of past experience to rely on?‑‑‑Yes, there would be some instances.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1206    

You would agree that trial participants may need to investigate and assess viable options with the customer for alternative assistance?‑‑‑Yes, that's something they were doing prior to the trial.

PN1207    

You would agree that, in some situations, there is a degree of lateral thinking required to resolve the customer's enquiries?‑‑‑I think there would probably be minimal scope for lateral thinking.  The parameters in the OB are quite specific.

PN1208    

But not all options are always in the OB or in the resources or tools provided?‑‑‑Yes, so it would be minimal.

PN1209    

The last set of questions in terms of negotiation and cooperation, you would agree that service officers on the indigenous service queue are required to explain a customer's obligations and entitlements with a level of tact, diplomacy and persuasion?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1210    

You would agree that service officers on the indigenous service queue are required to deliver unfavourable decisions, whether in relation to urgent payment matters or other matters?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN1211    

You would agree that these service officers may be required to deal with contentious decisions, such as the denial of an urgent payment?‑‑‑That's correct, yes, the same as other work that they were completing on the indigenous services queue.

PN1212    

You would agree that service officers reviewing an urgent payment decision, another service officer will be required to exercise tact, diplomacy and persuasion as well when explaining a decision?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1213    

And why they don't agree?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1214    

You would agree that service officers approving an urgent payment are required to negotiate an amount to be paid?‑‑‑As we have discussed previously, there will be minimal negotiation, noting it's the minimal amount to meet their minimum needs.

PN1215    

But it may arise that negotiation is required?‑‑‑Yes, minimal negotiation in the minority of cases.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1216    

You would agree that service officers are required to facilitate and ensure the correct payment to customers and negotiate payment arrangements?‑‑‑Yes.  So that's something they were already doing in their current work on the indigenous services queue.

PN1217    

And you would agree that that specifically aligns with APS4 work level standard descriptors?‑‑‑They would also be doing that at APS3.

PN1218    

But it aligns with an APS4 work level standard descriptor?‑‑‑Yes, also APS3, I understand, looking at the - I'll just grab it.  So it's got, 'Determine and facilitate payments to customers, including payments made by customers'.

PN1219    

And negotiating - negotiating payment arrangements?‑‑‑Yes, so minimal negotiation.

PN1220    

Yes.  That's all my questions, I don't have any more.  Thank you, Ms Hudson, for your time this morning and your patience?‑‑‑That's okay.

PN1221    

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Ms Sekler, any re-examination?

PN1222    

MS SEKLER:  I have got a few questions and then I might ask for a short moment to confer with my instructors and clients.  We are all geographically separated today.

PN1223    

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Ms Sekler, do you want to do that first or do you want to do that later?

PN1224    

MS SEKLER:  Would it be convenient - doing it in advance might be more efficient, and I would certainly be grateful for that opportunity.

PN1225    

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  All right, is 15 minutes long enough, or 20 minutes?

PN1226    

MS SEKLER:  Yes, 15 minutes or 20 minutes, whatever is most convenient to the Commission.

PN1227    

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  All right, well, we might resume then at 12.20.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    XXN MS TANDEL

PN1228    

MS SEKLER:  Thank you.

PN1229    

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Thank you.

PN1230    

MS TANDEL:  Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW                                                           [12.01 PM]

SHORT ADJOURNMENT                                                                   [12.01 PM]

RESUMED                                                                                              [12.21 PM]

<AMANDA HUDSON, RECALLED                                                   [12.21 PM]

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS SEKLER                                              [12.21 PM]

PN1231    

Ms Hudson, you were asked about whether the examples of APS4 work that you had provided in your statement might, in effect, be undervalued.  Do you remember that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1232    

What, if any, reason do you have to believe that they could be undervalued?‑‑‑My priority when completing the assessments was the outcome for customers, so I was, you know, very generous in terms of my scores, noting that I'm the program manager for this work and, yes, supporting our indigenous customers is the key for me.

PN1233    

I apologise, Ms Hudson, I asked an inadvertently confusing question.  If I might take you to court book page 213, which should be your statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1234    

You will see at paragraph 105, going over to the next page, you provide there, for example, an example of other APS4‑type work?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1235    

Do you have any reason to believe, or what, if any, reason do you have to believe that that work is currently undervalued, i.e. that it could be, or should be, done at a higher level?‑‑‑Other than the APS4?  I understand that that's at the correct level, that is, at the APS4 level in terms of - I think we had farm household allowance debt waivers, and that definitely sits at the APS4 level.  I think, in my statement, it states that those pieces of work can take up to five hours as a level of complexity of going across financial years.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    RXN MS SEKLER

PN1236    

Also I think the cashless debit card was another example whereby APS4 staff would look through the record, going back a number of years to make comprehensive assessments, and, once again, you know, that piece of work could take a number of hours, noting the complexity and the number of, you know, pieces of work in terms of attachments to records, et cetera, that they would be required to review, so that's, yes, clearly a specialist or technical role.

PN1237    

MS SEKLER:  Moving to your work level assessment, what, if anything, can you tell the Deputy President about whether your assessment was of the urgent payment work alone or of the role as a whole for the trial participants?‑‑‑I certainly looked at both elements.  There was that focus on, you know, urgent payments, noting it was the piece of work, but that was also done looking at the training plan for the indigenous services queue, noting, you know, the skills, the knowledge and the duties aligned with staff supporting that queue.  So, to form that comprehensive picture, I did look at both.

PN1238    

With the urgent payment component of the overall work of the trial participants - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1239    

- - - and that was the component which was about 10 per cent; is that correct?‑‑‑Yes, less than that for, you know, a number of staff, noting that staff can also be scheduled for processing the work, which takes them off the phone, so if they are not supporting the phone, they are not completing urgent payments, so that's quite generous in terms of stating 10 per cent, noting, you know, it may not necessarily be 10 per cent of their complete work if they have got processing on their schedules for say a period of a week as well.

PN1240    

Within that limited component, what, if anything, can you tell the Deputy President about the proportion of the straightforward to the more complex work?‑‑‑Yes, certainly, you know, the majority of the work would be, you know, very straightforward.  I think, as I mentioned earlier, you know, urgent payment assessments to attend an indigenous funeral would make no significant component.  You know, they are very straightforward in most instances in terms of, you know, verification provided for the funeral, all the details.  The resources are available to support staff in establishing when the funeral was on, where it's located and then, you know, tools and resources to assist staff in, you know, determining what amount of an urgent payment to grant.  So, clearly defined parameters there.

PN1241    

Deputy President, I don't have any further questions.

PN1242    

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Thank you, Ms Sekler.

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    RXN MS SEKLER

PN1243    

Thank you, Ms Hudson, that concludes your evidence and you are free to go?‑‑‑Thank you, Deputy President, thank you everyone.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW                                                           [12.28 PM]

PN1244    

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Ms Sekler, does that conclude your evidentiary case?

PN1245    

MS SEKLER:  Yes, it does.  I just clicked off the camera and now it's not clicking back on.  Yes, it does, Deputy President.

PN1246    

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Okay, thank you.  All right, we have got tomorrow set aside for oral submissions.  Is there anything else that we can usefully deal with today?

PN1247    

MS SEKLER:  Nothing further from us, Deputy President.

PN1248    

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  Thank you.  Ms Tandel?

PN1249    

MS TANDEL:  Nothing further from me.

PN1250    

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:  All right, we will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY, 26 MAY 2022                          [12.29 PM]

***        AMANDA HUDSON                                                                                                                    RXN MS SEKLER


LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

 

AMANDA HUDSON, AFFIRMED...................................................................... PN959

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS SEKLER................................................. PN959

EXHIBIT #14 WITNESS STATEMENT OF AMANDA HUDSON DATED 18/03/2022        PN968

EXHIBIT #15 SDPA CALL DATA JULY 2018 TO FEBRUARY 2022, PIVOT CORRECTION................................................................................................................................. PN992

EXHIBIT #16 SDPA CALL DATA JULY 2018 TO FEBRUARY 2022.......... PN993

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANDEL...................................................... PN996

THE WITNESS WITHDREW........................................................................... PN1230

AMANDA HUDSON, RECALLED................................................................... PN1230

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS SEKLER............................................................ PN1230

THE WITNESS WITHDREW........................................................................... PN1243