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Fair Work Act 2009                                                    




s.158 - Application to vary or revoke a modern award


AM2020/99 – Aged Care Award 2010 – Application by Ellis & Castieau and Others


AM2021/63 – Nurses Award 2020 – Application by  Australian Nursing and Midwifery Federation-Victorian Branch


AM2021/65 – Social, Community, Home Care and Disability Services Industry Award 2010 – Application by Health Services Union




9.00 AM, THURSDAY, 2 JUNE 2022


Continued from 24/05/2022



COMMISSIONER O'NEILL:  Good morning everybody.  Unless there's any preliminary matters, Mr Gibian, do you want to call your witness?


MR GIBIAN:  Yes.  I understand he's waiting to be admitted.


COMMISSIONER O'NEILL:  All right.  Good morning.  Is it Mr Basciuk?


MR BASCIUK:  Yes, it is.


COMMISSIONER O'NEILL:  I'm Commissioner O'Neill.  Thank you for your time this morning.  My associate is just going to have you take the affirmation.


MR BASCIUK:  Okay, no worries, thank you.


THE ASSOCIATE:  Mr Basciuk, can you please say your full name and work address.


MR BASCIUK:  Eugene Ian Basciuk, 142 Cameron Street, Wauchope, Bundaleer Care Services.

<EUGENE IAN BASCIUK, AFFIRMED                                             [9.02 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GIBIAN                                    [9.02 AM]




MR GIBIAN:  Thank you, Mr Basciuk.  This is Mark Gibian.  As you know, I appear for the HSU.  Could I just ask you to repeat your full name for the record?‑‑‑Eugene Ian Basciuk.


You are a maintenance tradesperson employed by Bundaleer Care Services in Wauchope?‑‑‑That is correct.


You have made a witness statement for the purpose of this matter.  Do you have a copy of that with you?‑‑‑That I do.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                                 XN MR GIBIAN


It runs over nine pages and 63 paragraphs and there are some annexures.  Do you have all of those?‑‑‑That I do.


Have you had the opportunity to read the statement through?‑‑‑Yes, I have.


Is it true and correct to the best of your knowledge and recollection?‑‑‑Yes, it is.


We seek to rely on that statement.  It's not in the court book, obviously, at this point, but if that's sufficient identification for present purposes?  There was just one matter I was going to ask Mr Basciuk to clarify.


Do you have the first page of your statement?‑‑‑Yes, I do.


You see, in paragraph 7, you refer to there being, or you indicate that Bundaleer provides aged care and retirement living in independent living units on the same site?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.


Then, in paragraph 8, you refer, on the second line, to there being 84 beds.  Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes, I do.


Is that in the home alone?‑‑‑That's 84 beds in the home alone, yes, and there's 76 independent living units.


In addition to the 84 beds in the home?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.


Hopefully on the screen in front of you, you can see a number of faces.  One of them is Ms Rafter, who is appearing for some of the employers' interests.  She's going to ask you some questions now?‑‑‑Okay.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS RAFTER                                        [9.04 AM]


Hi, Mr Basciuk, my name is Alana Rafter and I appear for the employer interests today.  Are you able to hear me all right?‑‑‑Yes, I can hear you all right.


Excellent.  I'm just going to ask you some questions about your statement that you've filed in these proceedings?‑‑‑Yes.


Do you have a copy of that in front of you?‑‑‑That I do.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


I understand you are a maintenance tradesperson at Bundaleer?‑‑‑That is correct.


And you have been working with Bundaleer since September 2019 to now?‑‑‑That is correct.


So about two and a-half years or so?‑‑‑Yes.


I understand that Bundaleer is your first job in aged care?‑‑‑That is correct.


When you commenced work with Bundaleer, were you required to have a trade qualification?‑‑‑In the job ad it did state that they needed a qualified electrician.


But then on your position statement, it just notes that as a desirable feature of the role but not a mandatory aspect?‑‑‑Yes.  Yes, I don't - that's paperwork for the admin side of things.


No worries.  Can I take you to paragraph 12 of your statement, where you set out your qualifications?‑‑‑Yes.


I understand you're a licensed electrician?‑‑‑That is correct.


To get your licence as an electrician, what qualifications did you need to obtain as a first step?‑‑‑I did an apprenticeship in the electrical trades, and that started with the railways, and then I completed with the electrical contractor after that and I applied to New South Wales Fair Work with all my qualifications and got my electrical licence.


Are those the qualifications listed at 12, so your Electrical Fitter/Mechanic Trade Certificate?‑‑‑That is correct.


At that time, to get the licence, did you also have your Certificate II in Telecommunications Cabling, or was that something you did afterwards?‑‑‑That's afterwards and that's an additional licence to work on all the telephones and computer data and all that sort of stuff.


Is it the case for the Telecommunications Open Registration (Telecommunications licence) that, again, that's a separate qualification as well?‑‑‑That is correct.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


Thank you for that.  Now I would like to ask you some questions about your employment which is referred to in paragraph 11 of your statement.  You mention you did your apprenticeship with the railways in 1996 to 1998?‑‑‑Correct.


Then you state that you were a maintenance electrician for various companies between 1998 to 2007?‑‑‑Yes.


Without asking you to name the different companies, I just wanted to get a picture of your experience.  Could you identify some of the industries that you've worked in, if they're different or if they were the same?‑‑‑Yes, I finished off my apprenticeship with a local electrical company based out at Penrith, and then I left there and I worked for places like Wrigleys, Tooheys, Australia Post and all of those sorts of companies.


Working for those different companies, would you be working on site at Australia Post or with Tooheys, or would you be stationed at an office and go in as needed?‑‑‑No, all on site.


All on site.  So you have been exposed to a lot of different areas, I take it, different industries, different businesses?‑‑‑Yes.


And work of a whole host of different people?‑‑‑Yes, I have.


If we go with Australia Post for a second, if you're doing electrical work as required for them would you typically try to fit it in around their timetables to minimise disruption?‑‑‑Yes.


And is that typical in all of the different industries, different companies?‑‑‑Yes.


And obviously with an exception, if there's an emergency do the work then and there?‑‑‑Yes.


Thank you for that.  It's good to get a picture of that, very helpful.  I'd now like to go to Bundaleer.  So you set out the site at around paragraphs 7 and 8 of your statement, and earlier you said there's 76 independent living units on the Cameron Street part of Bundaleer?‑‑‑Yes.


And there's also the Cameron facility, which is the residential care facility, and that's onsite as well?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


And then there's another site at Johnston Street but that's no longer operating as a residential care facility?‑‑‑That is correct.


I believe you say it shut down around May 2021?‑‑‑Yes.


Or August 2021.  Now, with the independent living and retirement aspect of Bundaleer, do you do any maintenance work for them or for that aspect of Bundaleer, or is your work limited to the aged care facilities?‑‑‑No, I work across every site of the Bundaleer and that includes both the independent living units and the aged care facility.


Now, I'd like to ask a question, and if it's an unfair question, do let me know, but are you able to give an indication of the percentage of work you would be doing for the independent units versus the residential facilities in a week?‑‑‑In a week, I think about 20 per cent is the independent living units.  I spend about 80 per cent on the care home.


Eighty per cent on the care home.  Thank you very much.  Now, I'd just like to confirm my understanding of the chain of command at Bundaleer as well.  So, I understand at the top we have the CEO of Bundaleer, then we have the maintenance manager that manages and supervises the maintenance team?‑‑‑Yes.


And that would be your direct report.  You would communicate regularly with the manager?‑‑‑That is correct.


And your team, the maintenance team, consists of yourself as the maintenance tradesperson, a gardener, a lawn mower, a general hand, and a plumber?‑‑‑That I correct.


Excellent.  Now, if I turn to - I might take you to paragraph 34 of your statement as some of my questions I might direct you to there.  Now, at 34 - apologies, at 35, I withdraw 34.  So, at 35 you state that the manager organises the workflow for the team, and - yes, and that the manager allocates you jobs?‑‑‑That is correct.


And is it correct that the manager would allocate jobs for each member of the maintenance team?‑‑‑That is correct.


Now, are these jobs all allocated via the Hardcat system?‑‑‑That is correct.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


And my understanding of the Hardcat system, as it is, that it's a digital system and it assists with asset maintenance and it's a place where effectively you can see all the jobs that are logged?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.


Do you access it via an app on your phone or a website?‑‑‑Both.


Both, excellent.  And on the Hardcats system if you're in the app, are you able to see all the jobs listed, but also see the jobs that are simply allocated for you?‑‑‑Yes, I can.


So there's a way of organising.  Are you also able to see jobs organised by location?‑‑‑Yes, we can.


And is that location by Cameron Street and Johnson Street or is it by rooms and location throughout the facility?‑‑‑It's facility and then we get which room we have to - it's located to.  We can also see every individual assets as well.


And my understanding is that the manager - so, they allocate all of the jobs for each of the team members through Hardcat, and so if the - just to give an example of different jobs that the manager might put into Hardcat, if the manager is alerted to a resident's sink in their ensuite is not working, so the mixer tap is just not functioning right, that would be a type of job that he or she would enter into the Hardcat system and allocate to the plumber member of your team?‑‑‑Yes, that'd be correct.


And then to choose a very simple example, if there was a light that had blown and needed to be replaced, the manager would put that into Hardcat and allocate it to you to sort out?‑‑‑Yes, he would.


Excellent.  Now, at 36 you talk about how the manager - the receptionist initially logs the job into Hardcat, is that simply to create the - is that the manager has described the job that he wants logged into Hardcat, and she or he simply creates the entry into Hardcat?‑‑‑The actual job is actually noted on a piece of paper which is logged on by the receptionist, and then the maintenance manager reviews that request and then logs in and allocates the jobs.


So, I might walk you - unpack that a bit.  So, it's handed on a piece of paper to the receptionist first?‑‑‑Yes.


A job request.  Who creates this initial written job request?‑‑‑Any staff member.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


So, that can be the care workers, the registered nurses, members of your team?‑‑‑That is correct.


Okay.  So, the first thing is - so, if you identify a job that needs to be done, it has to get into the system on Hardcat so you write it on a piece of paper, provide it to the receptionist, she would then enter it into Hardcat?‑‑‑That is correct.


And that's the initial step.  And you note that she puts in the date, the urgency and timeframe?‑‑‑Yes.


Was that something that would be indicated on that request form or is she just putting in the figures there?‑‑‑No, it's not indicated on the request form, it's basically the maintenance manager actually allocates the time period for it as the need of what he deems is urgent or not.


So, once these jobs, if they're allocated on Hardcat the manager has the final say on determining and the manager is responsible for setting the urgency of these jobs?‑‑‑That is correct.


Thank you for that.  Thank you for clarifying, that's all very helpful.  Now, with checking the work with the workflow, which I mentioned - that you mentioned the manager organises, is organising workflow simply determining the allocation of jobs, or how does the manager organise workflow?‑‑‑Well, I'm not really the manager, so it's a bit hard to tell you what goes through his head, but it's basically the - you know, anything that comes up urgently.  I'll give you an example, something urgent, it might be a broken bed, you know, if the beds don't go up or down the carers can't perform their work in a safe manner, or lighting where a resident mightn't be able to see, and so they need the lighting so they don't fall over or trip over something because they can't see, things like that.


So, the manager sees the nature of the jobs and is making all of these determinations about what's the urgency there?‑‑‑Yes, he is.


Excellent.  And that might be informed by the nature of the job which you just gave an example of?‑‑‑Yes.


Now, if I can turn to your duties, at paragraph 16, I believe that's where you start with your duties, you state that the first thing you do on arrival is look at the allocated job list.  I take it that's what we've just been talking about, which is on Hardcat?‑‑‑Yes, that is correct.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


Thank you for that.  And via Hardcat you can check the urgency that we also just discussed, which will be confirmed by the manager?‑‑‑Yes.


And if there is a priority matter you would turn your attention to that in accordance with the priority that's listed.  So high priority has to be done today, you would attend to that, make sure that's done that day?‑‑‑That is correct.


Is there a typical amount of jobs you tend to have per day, or does it change day to day?‑‑‑It changes day to day into whatever breaks down or is needed.  You know, something like we can be hanging up pictures for a resident in their room to make it more homely.


Yes?‑‑‑You know, to - like I said before, a broken bed, you know, they don't have set times or anything like that.


So, I take it that's where the urgency is confirmed by the manager assist, so that you know that you have limited hours in the day, these are the jobs that have to be done today, and the others, there's a bit of wriggle room of when you can - - -?‑‑‑It can be like that, yes.


Thank you?‑‑‑And then we've had days where it's just been urgent jobs all day and we've been flat out.


You talk about the preventative maintenance jobs, and I take it these are the ones that these are the - you refer to quarterly checks, so these are regularly scheduled maintenance that have to be done, have to be checked on a regular basis and are eventually audited?‑‑‑That is - - -


Or may be subject - I should say may be subject to auditing?‑‑‑Yes, things like wheelchairs, wheelie walkers, make sure the brakes work because, yes, again, you know, to stop any residents from falling over or getting hurt due to faulty equipment.


If we take the example of a resident's wheelchair and you're doing the check, so I take it the first step is you will see that that check is noted on Hardcat and that that check needs to be done today?‑‑‑Yes, that is correct.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


Then you would go to the wheelchair and check all of its functionality, check its tyres, check that it's not a danger to the resident due to a fault with the asset?‑‑‑That's correct.


If it was damaged beyond repair, say the wheel was completely dented, there was no way of fixing this by a simple repair, is that the case where you would contact the manager to seek approval to order a new part?‑‑‑Well, first we check our stock levels and then, if we do have another wheelchair, we would go and fetch it for them and actually replace that chair and then we'd take the broken chair and take it out of service and do all the paperwork for it that way.


I see.  So, the first step is that this chair is not fit for - you discover the chair is not fit for the resident, so we organise for a replacement chair, if there is one available in stock?‑‑‑Yes.


Then, with the chair that's faulty, you then separately try to, or see - I withdraw that.  You then separately organise to repair or organise a replacement for that part of that wheelchair?‑‑‑Yes, yes, repair or replace, that's correct.


Repair or replace.  Thank you.  With each of those steps that you did, would that all then be recorded for that against that job entry on Hardcat?‑‑‑Yes, it would.


Excellent.  I would now like to take you to another example at paragraph 20 where you talk about the example of the air-con system not working?‑‑‑Yes.


In a similar fashion, you would be alerted to this job by the entry put into Hardcat?‑‑‑Yes.


You would then, seeing that job, go to the air-con system to check on its functionality, and you refer to doing a basic power reset?‑‑‑That is correct.


If it's still not operational after that test, that's when you contact the manager to organise approval for a contractor?‑‑‑That is correct.


I should unpack that.  Approval to go and contact a contractor?‑‑‑Yes - - -


And then the next - sorry, I cut you off?‑‑‑Yes.  No, I was just agreeing.


Then, once you have got that initial approval, you then would contact a contractor to obtain a quote?‑‑‑Yes, if it needed replacing.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


Yes, if it needed replacing, you would do that.  And if you had a preferred contractor, you would go to that preferred contractor, otherwise you might have to look around for a different contractor?‑‑‑Yes, yes, we have preferred contractors who have gone through all their police checks and all their inductions into the care home.


Can I understand if it's a new contractor that's never been in the care home before, you would notify the manager of this and the manager would then do a site induction with this contractor?‑‑‑Yes, he would.


He would also ensure that that contractor has the appropriate licences?‑‑‑Appropriate licences, yes, correct.


Before commencing the work?‑‑‑Yes.


With this site induction, were you required to do a site induction when you joined Bundaleer?‑‑‑Yes, we did a staff one, which is slightly different to a contractor one.


Are you familiar with the contractor site induction?‑‑‑No.


I won't ask you about it then, that's unfair.  The manager manages what he's doing, that's fine.  Now, if I could take you to paragraphs 24 to 27, this is where you're talking about the health and safety assessment?‑‑‑Yes.


At 24, you say this is done before you start a job?‑‑‑That is correct.


Is it correct that it's done before every single job?‑‑‑That is correct.


So whether it be changing a light bulb in a room or attending to the air-con system, this process has to be completed?‑‑‑Yes, it does.


I see at EB01 you attach the job hazard analysis worksheet?‑‑‑Yes.


You also refer to the first step before that, which is the work method statement?‑‑‑Yes.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


That work method statement is prepared by the manager and lists all the steps that are anticipated to be done in that job?‑‑‑Yes.


The manager might ask you about the steps that are involved as well to complete that statement?‑‑‑Yes, he does.


Is this all done on hard copy pieces of paper or is this done electronically on the computer?‑‑‑At the moment, Bundaleer's changing over to using a digital version under - I think it's enableHR.


If it's not quite digital yet, it's in the process of getting there?‑‑‑That is in - yes.


No worries.  Currently it's still in this paper format?‑‑‑That is correct.


The main thing I wanted to see is it's different, it's not included in the Hardcat, a completely different process we're doing here?‑‑‑Yes.


Is this done before the job is allocated in Hardcat or after the job is allocated in Hardcat?‑‑‑Most of the, as we call them, SWMS are just a basic set of instructions that cover all - any jobs there.  It's basically like driving a car, it's like your road user manual, you know, that's your basic set of rules, instructions on the roads, whereas actually driving the car, you know, you're constantly changing things, you know, like other cars around, so, you know, trying to avoid.  That's the best analogy I can put to it for you.


With these documents, does that mean there are some templates of these documents, if I can use that word, for particular jobs that may be done routinely?‑‑‑Yes, there is.


Okay?‑‑‑Like, for instance, changing a light, you know, it's basically, you know, go there, see it, get all equipment, make sure your ladder's set up in a safe place, you're not going to be in the way of any residents for them to fall over.  We isolate the circuit, lock out, tag out, you know, because safety first, change the light globe, and then it's pretty much the reverse order back out.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


With these, you refer to it as similar to SWMS.  Is it a quick process filling out these documents?  I shouldn't say - I withdraw 'quick'.  How long do you typically spend creating these documents?‑‑‑Well, the SWMS take a little bit longer to do.  Something that doesn't actually have a SWM, that's where this job hazard analysis form would come in, and they can take anywhere from five minutes to 15 minutes, depending on the job.


Just so I can make sure I have it right in my process, you have the electronic record on the Hardcat of the job that's to be done?‑‑‑Yes.


Then this physical documentation of the work method statement and the job hazard analysis also has to be done before you commence that work on that job?‑‑‑That is correct.


These documents, would they be provided to the manager?‑‑‑They are provided to the manager once they are completed and they get scanned in and archived.


Do you need the manager to confirm receipt and approval of these documents before you start the job?‑‑‑For the SWMS, yes, for the JHA, no.


So, as long as the job - the JHA need not be completed before you start the job?‑‑‑No, the JHA must be done before the job.


Must be done but it need not be approved by the manager before you start the job?‑‑‑No, it doesn't need to be approved by the manager.


Excellent.  It just has to be done first and then that document goes to the manager for filing and ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑That is correct.


Thank you for that.  Thank you for talking me through that process.  And if I can take you to paragraph 29 where you talk about - you give an example of seeing a loose paver?‑‑‑Yes.


Is it the case that the protocol you set out is that you have spotted the hazard, which is the paver, that you move to solve the problem by either putting up bollards around so that no one trips, and then you contact the manager that this hazards exists?‑‑‑Yes.


Then it's up to the manager then to decide what change needs to take place to fix that hazard?‑‑‑Yes.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


And is that consistent with your WHS training?‑‑‑It's - well, if you can't fix it straightaway, well, it needs to be, you know, cordoned off so no resident will trip over and hurt themselves, and then if maintenance can't fix it right there and then, then a WHS form has to go in, it goes to the WHS committee, may need contractors in to actually rectify the problem, and the process starts off getting quotes and getting approval.  Then the maintenance manager needs to get approval higher up, and stuff like that.


Right, thank you for that.  So, I understand the process at Bundaleer then is that if you see a hazard and you're able to fix the hazard then and there, that falls within your responsibility, and you're to do that?‑‑‑Yes.


As that is then a new job of sorts, would that then need to also be recorded ultimately into Hardcat, or is that an incident report?‑‑‑Ninety per cent of the times it is added into Hardcat, because Hardcat is also used for our time in motion studies and all that too.


Yes.  And if it was a serious incident that would take time to - that you were unable to repair, you then talked about how there's another protocol in which it may - a WHS form may need to be completed, and it needs to be considered potentially by the WHS committee, so a different team ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Yes.


‑ ‑ ‑to your team?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.


Thank you.  If I can take you to paragraph 51 of your statement, here you talk about testing and tagging all of the appliances to make sure ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Yes.


‑ ‑ ‑they're compliant.  I take it to do this do you have a portable appliance tester?‑‑‑Yes, I do.


Excellent.  So, you're going there actually testing the power usage of the device and recording that?‑‑‑No, it actually tests for earthing, insulation resistance, and to make sure that if a resident or a staff member uses such appliance that they won't get electrocuted from it.


Thank you for confirming that.  And earlier you referred to assets.  Is it the case that all of these appliances are barcoded?‑‑‑All the ones that belong to Bundaleer are, yes.


Barcoded.  And are those then logged into Hardcat as assets as well?‑‑‑They are.


So, is it the case that you can, say, scan one of the barcodes and you can see then a record of the tests that have been done on Hardcat for that asset?‑‑‑And any other jobs that fall to that asset as well.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


So, if it's an electrical bed, but do stop me if that's one that wouldn't count as an asset, but if it's an electrical bed and it had a fault, and a contractor was organised to come in and look at it, if I scan the barcode that would come up?‑‑‑Yes.


Excellent.  And I take it that's useful for when, if you get audited, if an auditor asks about a particular asset you can easily pull up the record for that asset of every test and check?‑‑‑That is correct.


Thank you for that.  And you state at paragraph 52 that the manager is the main person for completing the documents for accreditation.  And don't answer this if you're not sure, are you aware of the documents that the manager is responsible for completing?‑‑‑No, I do not know.


That's perfectly fine.  Now, I'll go to 52 where you talk about the documentation you do, which is to check that you performed all your duties in relation to accreditation on the computer.  Is that again, and I appreciate I'm asking this a lot, is that documentation on the computer separate to Hardcat or is it one and the same?‑‑‑No, it's - there are a few different forms which have been set out for accreditation and need to be filled out in certain ways, and then we fill the forms out and then give them back to the maintenance manager for filing.


Excellent.  Does the manager have to sign off on the document or review the document?‑‑‑No, well, he probably looks at it and then files it into the appropriate spot.


I take it, as you say 'probably' that's a matter for the manager?‑‑‑Yes.


You don't want to speak to what he's doing, that's fine.  And as to the audits, and I note at 53 you mention that the auditor visits.  In your 2.5 years with Bundaleer, can you recall how many audits have taken place?‑‑‑I think the Aged Care Commission have come in, that's, what, three times.


Three times.  Were you present for each of those audits?‑‑‑Yes, I was still performing work around, and all staff were notified that they were onsite, and they can stop us at any time and ask us questions at any time.


Were you stopped on any of those visits?‑‑‑Yes, a couple of times.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


Couple of times.  So, once on each - on a couple of those audits.  And how long - I note you list a couple of questions, how long did the auditor spend with you on those occasions?‑‑‑It'd depend on what they wanted to know.  I think one time was a quick five minute one, and another one it ended up being about 20 minutes.


Thank you for that.  Now, at paragraph 56 to 58, thereabouts, you talk about doing the service for the assisted mobility technology and the mobility aids?‑‑‑Yes.


If I can take an example just to give context of the electric bed, for the service is that where you undertake to check the complete functionality of the electric bed?‑‑‑That is correct.


And so you'd be checking that the remote works, and every single control and function works without issue?‑‑‑That is correct.


Is that the entirety of the service that you do, or is there more to it?‑‑‑No, that's the - we go in, we check, make sure the bed does all - everything it was purchased to do.  I think there's - and we also check for any wear spots.


Yes.  And I take it each of that is then noted against the asset on Hardcat?‑‑‑That is correct.


If there was an issue with that asset, would you then contact the manager as well if you viewed that and a contractor needed to come and look at it?‑‑‑Yes, if there's a problem with the said asset, we would contact our manager.  Depending on what it is, he would then raise the job under the Hardcat system, and then if an outside contractor needed to come in, you know, it would be organised, or if we can fix it, we fix it and log the time and parts and all that to the Hardcat system.


Thank you for that.  Now, I note you say that prior to coming to Bundaleer you hadn't done certain services before, so would an example of one of those services be, say, changing a flat tyre on a mobility scooter?‑‑‑I'm sorry, can you repeat that question?


You refer to maintaining the mobility aids, and one of them is a mobility scooter and that you may change tyres if they're flat, and then, at 58, you say:


I did not know how to do these services before starting at Bundaleer.


?‑‑‑No.  Yes, that is correct.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


I was just trying to give an example?‑‑‑Yes.


So, with a mobility scooter, you wouldn't have known how to do that before coming to the job?‑‑‑No.


And you have learnt on the job how to do it?‑‑‑Yes.


Would you tell me how you learnt how to change the tyre of a mobility scooter?‑‑‑Well, first things first, we look at the scooter.  I've had a lot of like motor experience, so, you know, you've really got to look at the whole thing.  Some of it has been trial and error, unfortunately, but that's the same as anything.  If I got really stuck, I would seek help from my other team members.


Yes, thank you for that.  I may have cut you off?‑‑‑No, no, that's fine.


I will just ask you a couple more questions.  At paragraph 30, you talk about having constant contact with the carers, nurses and the receptionists, that you relay information to them that they need to know, or seek clarification?‑‑‑That is correct.


To confirm my understanding, I thought I'd run some examples by you.  Would an example of information you may relay to a carer concern a job you might be doing in a resident's room?‑‑‑Yes, 90 per cent of the time, yes.


Some information you may relay to the registered nurse, would an example be if you had done work on the care buzzer or - - -?‑‑‑The nurse call system.


The nurse call system - apologies - the buzzer?‑‑‑Yes.


You had a job and you fixed it.  Is that the type of thing you would then let the nurse know that it's been fixed and is functional now?‑‑‑Yes, with the RNs, it would be the nurse call system, anything to do with any like lifters or medical equipment that we may have to service as well, that they are operational again.


You let them know that that work's been done?‑‑‑Yes.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


With the receptionist, what's the type of information you would be communicating; what type of information would you be relaying to the receptionist?‑‑‑A lot of time it's with the phone systems because the receptionist takes calls and, you know, moves calls on, or, if there's a problem with them and I go and attend to fix them.  That's one thing.


You keep her or him informed about what's happened with this issue?‑‑‑Yes, or - - -


And now - sorry?‑‑‑Sorry.  Or I might need to seek more clarification as to the problem that's there because, you know, you can only put so much in a little title, so actually talking to them, you get a bigger picture of the actual problem.


So if a job is logged and you note that the initial request is likely from reception or a carer, you may ask follow-up questions to get a little bit more detail about the problem or the job that needs to be done?‑‑‑That's correct.


Thank you very much.  Just to go through some questions about your interaction with the residents, at 38, you note that you are conscious of the fact that you are working in the homes of residents and, as such, you don't proceed to complete a job in a resident's room without first letting that resident know or perhaps contacting the carer as well?‑‑‑Well, under the Aged Care Standards, the resident's room is their home.  You know, you wouldn't go to someone's house and just walk into it, would you?


Yes?‑‑‑So, we've all been instructed that, you know, we knock, we ask for permission, state why you're there, or if they're not in their room, we have to go and find the resident.


Yes?‑‑‑And seek permission to enter their room.


At 40, you note that, as you respect their home at 38, you are always respectful to the residents as well throughout when you're walking between jobs.  So, if a resident - I believe you refer to one that's in a wheelchair - - -?‑‑‑Yes.


- - - and his passage is unintentionally slowing you down a little bit, that you are respectful of him and take that opportunity to have a chat with him as you make your way from A to B?‑‑‑That is correct.


At 41, you also talk about how you would avoid using complicated jargon or jargon that a resident might not understand, like an LED light.  So, if you were coming to fix a light, you'd just tell them, 'I'm coming to fix your light today'?‑‑‑Yes.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


You don't need to give them all of the details about the bulb type and the voltage?‑‑‑That's correct.


Excellent.  At 49, you also talk about if you happen to know a little bit about their background or their interests and that's also an area of crossover, say, with your interests, you might engage in a bit of small chat about that with them as well whilst you're doing a job?‑‑‑Well, yes, getting to know some of the residents and some of their interests, it's easier to have a conversation with them.  You know, it sometimes can settle them down if they're slightly agitated, or just, you know, it's just so it doesn't - you know, you don't just come in, do the job and walk out and not say anything.  You know that's a bit rude.


I note, at 43, you refer to a resident that you describe as a frequent hitter?‑‑‑Yes.


If you know that a resident may have a particular - with that particular resident - I will rephrase that.  Would that then be included on your job hazard analysis that the resident has in the past been a frequent hitter?‑‑‑If there was a job in that resident's room, yes, it would, and it's been brought up with the maintenance manager and it's been in consultation with the maintenance manager and the RNs that whenever we go into this resident's room, we're to have a second person, normally a carer, just so we can get in, get the work done and then get out so as not to agitate them any more than needed.


On your job hazard analysis, the hazard is that this resident has been identified as a frequent hitter or potentially has that problem, and then the control that's being put in place is that a second person has to be in the room if a job is being done in that resident's room, and that might be a carer or it might be a nurse?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.


Thank you for that.  I note, at 44, you talk about another incident where a resident - you were doing work and you had a bollard up that a resident ignored or pushed through the bollard with her walker and thrust her walker at you in the process and, at that time, you called out for the EN?‑‑‑Yes.


And the EN came and assisted?‑‑‑That is correct.


Is that the type of incident that you would then report to your maintenance manager as well?‑‑‑Yes, I did.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


Would you also have to report it to the clinical care coordinator or manager?‑‑‑Well, my maintenance manager then reported it up through the system.


Okay.  So, you go to your direct report and then it's up to him where he takes that matter?‑‑‑That is correct.


Excellent.  Thank you for that.  At paragraph 45 - this is just for clarification - you talk about how, 'Management always tells us to refer to the iCare program.'  I see that you also state you don't have access to it.  But my question concerns which management are you referring to?  Is that your maintenance manager, is that another manager?‑‑‑That's usually, yes, usually another manager.


Just for clarity, in which department would that manager be in?‑‑‑Under the clinical side of things.


The clinical side?‑‑‑Yes, like a clinical manager.


Have you raised with them that you're unable to access the iCare program?‑‑‑Yes, I have, numerous times.


I take it this issue just is unresolved?‑‑‑Yes.


One last question.  At 62, you talk about some directions that were given during the COVID outbreak at the home.  You say the measures included you were required to limit your movements through the home, you had to wear full PPE.  I take it that was a temporary safety precaution to limit spread throughout that facility?‑‑‑That is correct.


So, if there's no outbreak, that direction would not be in place, say, now?‑‑‑That is correct.


Thank you, Mr Basciuk, no further questions from me.


COMMISSIONER O'NEILL:  Thank you.  Mr McKenna, is there anything from you?


MR MCKENNA:  No. Thank you, Commissioner.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                             XXN MS RAFTER


COMMISSIONER O'NEILL:  All right.  Any re-examination, Mr Gibian?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GIBIAN                                                 [9.48 AM]


MR GIBIAN:  There were just a couple of things.


Mr Basciuk, can you hear me again?‑‑‑Yes, I can.


You were asked some questions about the Hardcat system, and in one of the answers you indicated that the information from the Hardcat system is used for your time in motion studies, do you recall saying that?‑‑‑Yes, I do.


What was that a reference to?‑‑‑It's just the logging what hours we worked during the day.  It's probably a HR thing or an upper management thing just to know whether - you know, it's whether we're working efficiently probably.


Maybe you've just answered it, but I was going to ask do you know what that information is used for?‑‑‑Yes, it's also that, and the other thing they actually use it for is our performance reviews.


You were then asked some questions about the visits by the auditors from the Aged Care Quality and Safety Commission, and I think you said that you'd spoken to them at least on two occasions, one for a shorter five minute period, and another for a 20 minute or so period?‑‑‑Yes.


What types of things did they ask you about?‑‑‑The five minute one was to ask if I knew where all the COVID outbreak equipment was.  And I answered that, you know, swiftly and that.  And the 20 minute one was when they asked about, you know, if there's a certain job what's the process of it logging through to completion, which is what we've just been through.

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                               RXN MR GIBIAN


And, lastly, you were asked about going into the homes of residents, and you referred to your understanding of the requirements of the aged care standards in terms of the manner in which you treat the resident's room as their home, and referred to instruction that you've received in relation to that matter.  Earlier on in your statement at paragraph 32 there's a list of a number of different types of training, and I think on page 5(m) there's a reference to the Aged Care Quality and Safety Standards as being a matter that was subject of training that you'd received.  What did that training involve?‑‑‑That was a bridge course which we did on the computer.  That training ran - we had to watch a video which stated the whole eight standards and what they are and what was expected of us.  And after we watched that video we had to answer questions afterwards and get a certain pass mark.


Thank you, Mr Basciuk, that's the re-examination.


COMMISSIONER O'NEILL:  Mr Basciuk, thanks very much for your evidence this morning.  You're excused and free to go?‑‑‑Thank you, Commissioner.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW                                                            [9.51 AM]


COMMISSIONER O'NEILL:  So unless there's anything further, we will adjourn.


MR MCKENNA:  Thank you, Commissioner.




MS RAFTER:  If the Commission pleases.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY                                                            [9.51 AM]

***        EUGENE IAN BASCIUK                                                                                                               RXN MR GIBIAN



EUGENE IAN BASCIUK, AFFIRMED......................................................... PN14000

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GIBIAN.............................................. PN14000

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS RAFTER.................................................. PN14014

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GIBIAN........................................................... PN14195

THE WITNESS WITHDREW......................................................................... PN14205