PN1

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I will note the appearances. Mr Maxwell, you appear for the CFMMEU?

PN2

MR S MAXWELL: That's correct.

PN3

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Chang, you appear for the Australian Industry Group?

PN4

MR C CHANG: Yes, Vice President.

PN5

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Sostarko and Ms Lawrence, you appear for Master Builders Australia?

PN6

MS R SOSTARKO: Thank you.

PN7

MS J LAWRENCE: Yes.

PN8

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I just want to go to this issue of training packages and I want to use as the starting point annexure A to the MBA's submissions of 27 July. Am I right in thinking that the transport and logistics packages, that was already in the draft determination that we published, wasn't it?

PN9

MS SOSTARKO: Yes.

PN10

THE VICE PRESIDENT: So that's not in issue?

PN11

MS SOSTARKO: That's right. Is that right, Jen?

PN12

MS LAWRENCE: Yes.

PN13

THE VICE PRESIDENT: That's not in issue. Let's start with the top one then, Metal and Engineering, Certificate III. Why do you say that should be in, Ms Sostarko or Ms Lawrence?

PN14

MS SOSTARKO: Thank you, Vice President. I think our previous submissions, we've reiterated on a number of occasions the point that obviously we would like to keep the schedule as flexible and as broad as we see it as it should be applicable to the on-site award. In our most recent submission that was at the forefront of this annexure, we actually made a point that there were linkages, which is what this table we think illustrates, that there are classifications within the award that actually link directly to those training packages and, therefore, it's essentially self-evident that they should be included. The question, I think, is the CFMEU's submissions in reply - - -

PN15

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Let me cut to the chase. I have looked at this training package and it says it's been specifically developed for apprentices.

PN16

MS SOSTARKO: The point that we would make in that respect is that state/territory governments actually vary - - -

PN17

THE VICE PRESIDENT: The what?

PN18

MS SOSTARKO: The state/territory governments, the approach they take in terms of how they classify whether a package is applicable to an apprenticeship or a traineeship varies. So, there are specific jurisdictions where it may be that this particular package is applicable to a traineeship under that relevant state or territory training regime; therefore, I don't think it's appropriate or accurate to say that it is only applicable to an apprenticeship.

PN19

If it's appropriate, Vice President, if there's anything else, Jen, that you think we should add to that point that I've just made?

PN20

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, Ms Lawrence, just chip in as you - - -

PN21

MS LAWRENCE: Thank you, Vice President and Ms Sostarko. So, looking at the current list from some of the states and territories of current traineeships and apprenticeships, we note that there is a current qualification within MEM05 at AQF level III, which is currently a traineeship, that is MEM30505, which is the Certificate III in Engineering - Technical. It is currently a traineeship in Victoria and is relevant to on-site award.

PN22

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right. Do you want to add anything to that, Mr Chang?

PN23

MR CHANG: No, Vice President.

PN24

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Maxwell?

PN25

MR MAXWELL: Your Honour, if the qualifications are offered as the traineeship, we do not oppose them being included, if I can put it that way, but my understanding is if it's an apprenticeship in every state, I would be surprised if there's actually anyone being involved in a traineeship in Victoria, if it is offered as a traineeship in that state (audio malfunction).

PN26

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right, thank you. Next we have got the Agriculture, Horticulture and Conservation and Land Management package. Leaving aside the wage grade, does the CFMEU oppose inclusion of this one?

PN27

MR MAXWELL: Your Honour, again, in regards to the Certificate III Landscape Construction, I'm further checking. I think in most states there's actually an apprenticeship, but, again, on the basis that it may be a traineeship in some states, we don't oppose it going in.

PN28

In regard to the Cert II in Landscaping, I actually had a look at the enrolments and commencements and I think there was 50 across the whole of Australia in that qualification and I doubt that any of them are actually engaged on site. I think they'd be engaged in doing gardens in houses rather than in commercial construction. But, to the extent that it's a traineeship, we don't oppose its inclusion.

PN29

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Let's come to the wage rate then. In the miscellaneous award, as I understand it, this is level C, but we don't have a C in this award. Should we classify it as B or should we add a C? What should we do?

PN30

MR MAXWELL: We propose that it be included in B, which is the existing wage rates in the award.

PN31

MS SOSTARKO: Vice President, we would argue that we do need to include a wage level C given that if we're going to mirror the schedule that appears in the miscellaneous award, then that would be appropriate because then it would not be inconsistent with that package under the miscellaneous award.

PN32

THE VICE PRESIDENT: What, Mr Maxwell, would be the detriment from your perspective of doing that, if any?

PN33

MR MAXWELL: The detriment is that in the construction awards, we've never included the role wage rates based on years of schooling, we've only ever had a rate for the wage level A and a rate of pay for wage level B. So, the question then is, do you just include the highest rate for wage level C if you include wage level C in the award?

PN34

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Sorry, are you suggesting that if we include a C then other packages would have to go up to C?

PN35

MR MAXWELL: No, what I'm saying is that it was never envisaged that wage level C would apply in the construction award and it never has, so an issue is if you're then going to introduce, say, a new rate of pay in the construction award, what that rate should be.

PN36

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, this may be a stupid question: C is higher or lower than B?

PN37

MR MAXWELL: It's lower.

PN38

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Sorry, I might be missing something now, but in my printout of the award, there is a wage level C.

PN39

MS SOSTARKO: Yes, this would be - obviously this was - the existing schedule is the model schedule, for want of a better word, but that's right. We have always had wage level C in this schedule.

PN40

THE VICE PRESIDENT: So there has been a level C?

PN41

MR MAXWELL: It has it in the schedule, but the wage rates between these was determined by clause 19.10 of the award. There are the rates of pay for a civil construction traineeships and there is a wage rate for wage level A and wage level B for other trainees. So, it was never envisaged that wage level C would have any application in construction awards.

PN42

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay.

PN43

MR CHANG: Vice President, if I can just interject there?

PN44

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN45

MR CHANG: The consideration of whether or not wage level C should be inserted or should be included or retained in the current award, the Ai Group hasn't had chance to consider that specific issue as it is an issue that hasn't come up in the ambit of the discussions so far.

PN46

THE VICE PRESIDENT: It has in the sense that the draft determination did not have C in it, so, to the extent that - - -

PN47

MR CHANG: That's right.

PN48

THE VICE PRESIDENT: - - - anybody wanted C in there, they should have said so after the draft determination.

PN49

MR CHANG: I take that point, Vice President.

PN50

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I understand the point. The next one is Furnishing. Let's deal with the Glass and Glazing one first. I've looked up that one and it says it includes a glazing job role and it gave, as an example, assembly and repair of lead light and stained glass. Mr Maxwell, isn't that within the coverage of the award, that is, it's part of restoration and repair of the building? It might be (audio malfunction) extent, but will it sneak in that way?

PN51

MR MAXWELL: The qualification is for the repair work to be done in a factory environment and not someone working on site.

PN52

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Does it say that?

PN53

MR MAXWELL: There's a qualification for glass processing there.

PN54

THE VICE PRESIDENT: When we talk about 'glazing', I've always assumed that's referring to the installation of glass. Isn't that the normal meaning of it?

PN55

MR MAXWELL: No, glazing is wider than that. Glazing can include shop glazing. So, when you have - - -

PN56

THE VICE PRESIDENT: So like you put in a pre-assembled frame?

PN57

MR MAXWELL: Putting the glass in a pre-assembled frame in a factory, that is considered glazing work.

PN58

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, all right.

PN59

MS LAWRENCE: If I may, Vice President?

PN60

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes?

PN61

MS LAWRENCE: There's actually a number of level II qualifications within this training package and I would like to draw attention to the Certificate II in Furnishing, and the Certificate II in Furniture Making, both of which are traineeships in a number of jurisdictions and have units of competency directly relevant to the installation on site of materials.

PN62

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Have we moved on from glass now?

PN63

MS LAWRENCE: Under the award, it doesn't specify specific qualifications, it's actually looking at the qualification levels, so our inclusion of glass and glazing there was as an example of one of the qualifications that's applicable. There's actually a number of qualifications there.

PN64

THE VICE PRESIDENT: It's not in your submissions, so I'm at a loss of what you're talking about.

PN65

MS LAWRENCE: The example given there of a Certificate II in Glass and Glazing is an example of an AQF level II qualification within that training package.

PN66

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Just hold on, Ms Lawrence. I didn't understand these to be examples, I thought this was a list of everything the MBA wanted in this schedule. If there's something more, then I don't know what we're talking about.

PN67

MS LAWRENCE: It is the inclusion of Certificate II qualifications within the Furnishing package.

PN68

MS SOSTARKO: With respect to glass and glazing - correct me if I'm wrong, Ms Lawrence - but we have linked that certificate to a tradesperson's labourer, which potentially could be a situation, as the Vice President illustrated, in glazing restoration on-site, installation work that would fall within this category or traineeship under the certificate. Does that answer your question, Vice President?

PN69

THE VICE PRESIDENT: That's a different point, but I understand your point.

PN70

MS SOSTARKO: Yes.

PN71

THE VICE PRESIDENT: So Certificate I in Furnishing, how does that get in? It says that's for the position of product assembler. I don't understand how this gets into the building award.

PN72

MS SOSTARKO: Again that's where we've said, haven't we, that a tradesperson's labourer would potentially undertake a traineeship to undertake that work. Did you want to add anything with respect to that particular role?

PN73

MS LAWRENCE: Looking at the units of competency within that qualification, there is like the level II and there is also a unit which is specifically around floor covering installation, which we would see as applicable to the on-site award for a person operating under that.

PN74

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Do you want to respond to that, Mr Maxwell?

PN75

MR MAXWELL: Your Honour, in regard to the furnishing, we don't see - when you look at the actual qualification, it's not related to a tradesperson's labourer and if you actually look at the enrolments, I can't find any enrolments in that qualification in the latest data from the NCVER, and also in regard to the Certificate II in Glass and Glazing, again we don't see those roles as being tradesperson's labourer's roles when you actually look at the qualification and the occupations that they say they apply to.

PN76

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right. In relation to the Certificate III Flooring Technology, what does the CFMEU say about that?

PN77

MR MAXWELL: In regards to the Certificate III Flooring Technology, we accept that it may have application on site.

PN78

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay. All right, let's move to the next one, Manufacturing and Engineering. What do you say about these ones, Mr Maxwell?

PN79

MR MAXWELL: In regards to the Cert I in Engineering, again we say it's not for a tradesperson's labourer, it wouldn't have any application on site. In regard to the Cert III in Engineering - Fabrication Trade, we accept that that would have some application.

PN80

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right. Does the MBA want to address the first one?

PN81

MS SOSTARKO: I think I'm going to defer to Jen on that.

PN82

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, go ahead.

PN83

MS LAWRENCE: We're looking at Cert I Engineering tradesperson labourer linkage that - - -

PN84

THE VICE PRESIDENT: The identifier is a metal engineering process worker and it refers to it being a production assistant factory worker, so I can't - nothing about an on-site role jumps out at me from that, Ms Lawrence.

PN85

MS LAWRENCE: There are a number of units which could be applicable to an on-site circumstance and there is one that definitely is, which is around the installation and upgrade of locks and hardware where the student is required to establish on-site access requirements and arrangements. However, we also note this isn't currently listed by any state or territory as a traineeship pathway, noting, though, that doesn't preclude them from including it in the future.

PN86

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right. Manufacturing Certificate III Surface Preparation and Coating. Mr Maxwell, is that opposed?

PN87

MR MAXWELL: It is not opposed.

PN88

THE VICE PRESIDENT: National Water: what does the CFMEU say about those ones?

PN89

MR MAXWELL: In regard to National Water, we don't agree that the Certificate II has any application on site, but we accept that the Certificate III may have some application on site.

PN90

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I'm looking at the Certificate II. It refers to base water or water plant operator and entry level water industry. How does this connect to building and construction?

PN91

MS SOSTARKO: Are you happy to take that one, Ms Lawrence?

PN92

MS LAWRENCE: Yes, I am, Ms Sostarko, thank you. Looking at the Occupational Guide in the companion volume which goes alongside of the qualification, we note that occupations potentially also include maintenance assistants and stormwater or drainage labourer and that within the qualification, there are quite a number of electives from the Resources Infrastructure Industry package relating to civil construction and that this is a traineeship in Queensland, WA, Victoria and New South Wales. So, potentially, people undertaking this qualification could be employed within the civil construction industry and thus working on site.

PN93

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right. Finally, the Transmission, Distribution and Rail ones, Mr Maxwell, are they opposed?

PN94

MR MAXWELL: They are not opposed.

PN95

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right. That covers all the MBA's ones. Now, Mr Maxwell, there was something you said which raised a question in my mind. In the draft determination, we had included Metal and Engineering (Technical) Certificate level III. Did I read your submissions to say that that's an apprenticeship and should be deleted? Is that what you were saying?

PN96

MR MAXWELL: That was in regard to the Certificate III in the - that was only in regard to the electrical/electronic trade qualification, but given that that is part of the MEM05 training package and we have an allocation at wage level A in the Certificate III, then that would be covered, so it's not an issue as such.

PN97

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right, well, that's been very helpful. Are there any other issues that we need to canvass?

PN98

MS SOSTARKO: I don't believe so.

PN99

MR MAXWELL: I don't think so. I hope this is the last of the four-yearly review matters that are to be dealt with.

PN100

THE VICE PRESIDENT: There's still a few floating around, unfortunately, but we're aiming for the end of the year, so we'll get there.

PN101

Thank you for your attendance, everybody, we will now adjourn.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [2.26 PM]