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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Fair Work Act 2009 47499-1
VICE PRESIDENT WATSON
AM2010/226
s.158 - Application to vary or revoke a modern award
Application by National Retail Association Limited
(AM2010/226)
General Retail Industry Award 2010
(ODN AM2008/10)
[MA000004 Print PR985114]]
Melbourne
10.12AM, WEDNESDAY, 27 APRIL 2011
Continued from New
PN1
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Are there any changes in appearances?
PN2
MR D. MAMMONE: Your Honour, on the last occasion Gregory, initial D appeared for the ACCI. I appear, Mammone, initial D, for ACCI, your Honour.
PN3
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you, Mr Mammone.
PN4
MR P. O’GRADY: Good morning, your Honour. I seek permission to appear for the Victorian Minister for Employment and Industrial Relations who of course in turn seeks leave to intervene.
PN5
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Any objection to the application for leave to intervene?
PN6
MR FRIEND: No, your Honour, and we don’t object to permission being granted to Mr O’Grady to appear either.
PN7
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr O’Grady, permission to appear is granted and leave to intervene for the Victorian minister is also granted.
PN8
MR O’GRADY: Thank you, your Honour.
PN9
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Friend.
PN10
MR FRIEND: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour should have received an outline of submissions filed by the SDA. There was, as the web site discloses, an amended outline filed a few days after the first one. Can I just indicate that the only change – because it appeared in the covering letter but doesn’t appear from the web site that the first submission missed part of SDA1, that being the part which is headed History of Casual Engagements Under Retail Awards Covering Victoria. That’s now included.
PN11
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I see.
PN12
MR FRIEND: Sorry, it wasn’t - - -
PN13
THE VICE PRESIDENT: So it’s dated 15 April?
PN14
MR FRIEND: Missed the second part, History of Casual Employees in States Other Than Victoria.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Right.
EXHIBIT #F1 OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS OF SDA
PN16
MR FRIEND: Can I make one further correction to that, your Honour, which is at page 15, paragraph 79, where we say, “The submissions understate the way that this consideration should be given.” It should read, “The submissions overstate the way that this consideration should be given.”
PN17
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN18
MR FRIEND: In addition, your Honour will recall some of the cross-examination of Mr Black involving material about the survey that the NRA presented and the request that additional information about that survey be provided. Can I hand up to your Honour the chain of correspondence in relation to that. You’ll see that two days after the evidence was given an email was sent in relation to that request for information. It was followed up on 17 February by the SDA. The response was sent in relation to that on 21 February indicating that no notes were taken, everything was recorded directly into the Excel spreadsheet.
There was then a request for confirmation that there were no further documents or notes. That hasn’t been responded to but, as your Honour will perhaps recall, the transcript of the passages referred to in the first SDA letter, PM243 to 249 requested information about the actual questions asked. It appears from what we have that there is simply no information about what questions were asked or what the responses were or how they were gathered, other than what is contained in the Excel spreadsheet. Can I tender that chain of correspondence, your Honour?
EXHIBIT #F2 CHAIN OF CORRESPONDENCE
PN20
MR FRIEND: Your Honour, I didn’t propose, unless it would assist your Honour, to go through the outline of submissions. It might be of more assistance to do that at the end of the case and simply to get into the witness evidence.
PN21
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, I’m content with that, Mr Friend.
PN22
MR FRIEND: Thank you, your Honour. I should say perhaps, just to get it on the record, what the order of witness evidence will be. There are a couple of issues that I need to raise with your Honour about that. We propose to call Ms Carrington from Brisbane through the video-link first this morning, then Mr Swetman who’s also present at the tribunal in Brisbane. We then have Ms Munro who’s from Victoria and is here at the tribunal now. We’ll call her. Doing the best we can, we feel that that may take the morning.
PN23
This afternoon Mr Chris Caranza, who’s a student at a local school, will be here at 2.15. He’s being picked up from the school and brought in and then taken back to school. We’ve tried to accommodate his needs in that regard, your Honour. Dr Campbell will then give evidence after Mr Caranza. The final witness today is Tysan Allen and this is one that I need to raise with your Honour. Mr Allen is taking part in the National Netball Championships at Penrith and we were hoping, with your Honour’s leave, to call him by telephone at 4.30 pm.
PN24
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. I think there’s some precedent for that.
PN25
MR FRIEND: Yes, your Honour. We were hoping that we might be able to rely on that. Tomorrow morning Dr Price will be here in person to be cross-examined, give her evidence. The final witness is Ms Buesnell who is flying from Orange to Sydney to give evidence over the video-link. She should arrive in Sydney some time around 11.00 or 11.30 and so would be at the tribunal either around lunchtime or certainly available first thing after lunch. We’ve booked video-conferencing facilities for her. That would constitute our case.
PN26
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I wonder in that circumstance whether, assuming we finish the scheduled witnesses for today, that we might sit tomorrow afternoon rather than tomorrow morning. Is that an option?
PN27
MR FRIEND: We can make inquiries of Dr Price. She has travelled down to Melbourne, your Honour. I’m just not sure when she has booked to return to Brisbane but we’ll have that done now and indicate to your Honour. If it would suit the tribunal’s convenience we’ll do what we can to see if she’s available.
PN28
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. I’m certainly keen to ensure we use today as much as possible and the proceedings beyond today are as limited as possible, given the schedule, et cetera.
PN29
MR FRIEND: Yes.
PN30
THE VICE PRESIDENT: We can certainly sit later if necessary today or indeed tomorrow.
PN31
MR FRIEND: Thank you, your Honour.
PN32
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Very well.
MR FRIEND: I call Ms Carrington, your Honour, who’s in the Brisbane registry.
<TERRIE CARRINGTON, SWORN [10.22AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND [10.22AM]
PN34
MR FRIEND: Ms Carrington, could you state your full name, please?---Yes, my name is Terrie Carrington.
PN35
And your address, please?---I’m from the Gold Coast SDA. Our head office is in Leichhardt Street, 146 Leichhardt Street, Spring Hill.
PN36
You’re employed as an organiser by the SDA. Is that right?---Yes.
PN37
Have you prepared a statement in relation to this matter of some 14 paragraphs and one attachment?---That’s correct.
PN38
Are the contents of that statement true and correct?---They are.
Thank you, Ms Carrington. Your Honour, could that be marked, please?
EXHIBIT #F3 STATEMENT OF TERRIE CARRINGTON
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DUFF [10.23AM]
PN40
MS DUFF: Good morning, Ms Carrington?---Good morning.
PN41
I’d just like to ask you a few questions about the statement that you have filed in this matter, if I may. At paragraph 2 of your statement you refer to the 400-odd employees that are employed on the site that you are responsible for in your position as an organiser with the SDA. Could you tell us please where the majority of those employees are employed?---They’re employed – well, actually, in clause 3 I say they’re employed on check-outs, filling shelves, console operators and customer service. They’re employed in supermarkets, hardware stores, discount stores, petrol stations, fast-food shops.
PN42
**** TERRIE CARRINGTON XXN MS DUFF
So would it be correct to say that the majority are employed in supermarkets and would be employees of the Wesfarmers and Woolworths groups?---A large percentage, yes, would be employed in the Wesfarmers and Woolworths group, yes.
PN43
Do you know, Ms Carrington, how many of these members are attending school at years 10, 11 or 12 level?---No, I couldn’t answer that question.
PN44
If I could take you to paragraph 4 of your statement, please. At paragraph 4 you state that in the majority of cases casual employees do not get a roster in advance. I take it that you mean that they get a call when other staff might take sick leave or when things get very busy. Is this the correct interpretation of your paragraph 4, Ms Carrington?---No. My interpretation is that a lot of casuals do get their rosters in advance but they normally – they would get a call in if they are needed to work if someone has called in sick or some other reason, because of staff shortages.
PN45
So it would be correct to say that in the majority of cases they receive their roster in advance but on odd occasions they may get called in on late notice?---Correct, yes.
PN46
In paragraph 7 you talk about your experience with one and a half hour shifts. Do any of the agreements that may be applicable in the various sites that you are responsible for – do those agreements you deal with make provision for a one and a half hour shift?---Not from my memory at this point in time, no.
PN47
How about a two-hour shift? Are you aware of any provisions in those agreement concerning two-hour shifts for student casuals?---Yes. There’s two-hour shifts for everyone for training purposes. That would occur if a company is putting in a new cash register and they can bring them in for a two-hour training shift or various things that are changing, but they are just specifically for training.
PN48
**** TERRIE CARRINGTON XXN MS DUFF
So would it be true to say, therefore, that you’ve never had any experience with a workplace in which one and a half shifts are worked?---No, I have not had any of that experience at all.
PN49
At paragraph 8 of your statement you refer to conversations you have had with various of your members who are high school students. Could you tell us please about those students that you’ve talked to, what - - -?---I’m sorry?
PN50
Can you hear me, Ms Carrington?---I can. Can you repeat the question, please?
PN51
At paragraph 8 of your statement you refer to conversations you’ve had with members who are high school students. Could you tell us a little, please, about the students that you have talked to, such as what year they’re in, what schools they go to, how many are in year 12, and of those in year 12 how many are not seeking a tertiary entrance school?---Well, when I visit lunch rooms or workplaces of a weekend and talk to these young people I asked them simply, “How would you like to do a one and a half shift,” and they’re two of the responses I get, negative, “No way.”
PN52
So you asked these students if they would like to work a one and a half hour shift. How many students did you speak to at any given time?---Since this case has started I have been asking the students as I go around the stores. I can’t put a number on it. It’s just a standard question so that I can get a feel for the evidence I’m giving you.
PN53
When you’re going around stores talking to students, how did you introduce the question concerning the 1.5-hour shift?---Well, we’ve had a lot of publicity in our magazines about the case that has been going on and, you know, everyone gets a copy of the details of what has been going on in the case and that’s the responses that I get.
**** TERRIE CARRINGTON XXN MS DUFF
PN54
So did you specifically draw their attention to the publicity that has been in SDA publications or did you otherwise introduce the subject of the NRA’s application in this matter?---No. I mention our own magazine and bring their attention to what we’re saying in our magazines.
PN55
So are you saying that every single student that you spoke to responded in exactly the same way to the question concerning a 1.5-hour shift?---Sometimes they say other things but not one person has ever said, “I would do a one and a half hour shift.” They have always said, “Not a chance,” or, “No way. Don’t be ridiculous.”
PN56
Are you able to recall, Ms Carrington, what the actual question was that you put to the students? Did you say to them, for example, “I’ve discussed this - - -”?---My question would be, “How would you like to be rostered for a one and a half shift?”
PN57
Can you recall, Ms Carrington, if you ever might have said something along the lines of, “I’ve discussed this issue with Joan and she doesn’t like the idea of a 1.5-hour shift. What do you think”?---No, I haven’t done that at all.
PN58
Ms Carrington, of the students that you talk to in the various sites that you’re responsible for, before drawing their attention to the content of SDA publications and asking their opinion of working a 1.5-hour shift did you conduct any inquiries to ascertain that they were in fact full-time school students?---Well, I know many of them and I know that they are full-time school students.
PN59
But prior to specifically asking them the question in this matter you didn’t actually ask them whether they were full-time students?---No.
PN60
So do you think that might have affected the answers that they provided you with, assuming that some of them perhaps were no longer full-time students at the time you were asking them about the NRA’s application in this matter?---No, I never asked them if they were full-time students. I know a lot of them and I know that they go to various schools, high schools all of the Gold Coast.
**** TERRIE CARRINGTON XXN MS DUFF
PN61
Moving on to paragraph 10, Ms Carrington, you talk quite a bit about Miami High School. How many of the students that you spoke to go to this school? Are you able to tell us that information?---No, I can’t answer that question but I know many – I’m sorry?
PN62
Sorry, I spoke over you?---No, I don’t know how many go to Miami but I know a lot of them do because I have been talking to them over the last month or so.
PN63
So would you be able to tell us what year the students are in and where they live or how many are in year 12?---No, I wouldn’t be in a position to tell you that. I don’t know. I just know when I visit, for instance, fast food places I see the young school students that are going to Miami State High that are working in Kentucky Fried and they’re getting anything from three hours to five-hour shifts and they love it. You say to them, “How many hours a week would you like to work?” “We can’t do more than 12 but we really want 12.”
PN64
There is a Coles in the suburb or Miami, isn’t there?---There’s a sorry?
PN65
There is a Coles supermarket in Miami?---Yes, there is.
PN66
Do you know how many of the students that you spoke to work at that Coles at Miami?---No, I don’t know.
PN67
Are you able to tell us the names of the Miami school students that you spoke to who work at the Robina Shopping Centre?---No.
PN68
At paragraph 11 of your statement, Ms Carrington, you say that the bus trip from Miami to Robina takes 44 minutes and that return fare costs between $3.68 and $6.20. Is this correct?---Yes. That’s a concession ticket.
**** TERRIE CARRINGTON XXN MS DUFF
PN69
Sorry, which is a concession ticket? The $3.68?---I’m sorry, I didn’t hear that question.
PN70
Which of those fares was the concession fare? Are you saying the $3.68 fare is a concession fare return?---Between $3.68 and $4.14, depending on which shopping centre you’re going to. It gets higher if you’re going away from those three shopping centres.
PN71
Would it surprise you, Ms Carrington, if I told you that I conducted my own review of Translink journey planners and that review suggested to me that a bus leaves Miami at 3.22 pm on a school day and arrives at Robina at 3.34 pm, a journey of some 12 minutes?---From Miami to Robina – I’ve actually supplied you copies of the Translink buses in my statement.
PN72
I’m aware of the Translink printouts that are annexed to your statement, Ms Carrington. What I’m suggesting is that when I conducted my own search of that web site it gave me quite distinctly different results to the content of the statements annexed to your statement that you have filed in this matter?---I can’t answer that question but my research on Translink was done on 10 April this year and that’s why I supplied those printouts, and that’s the quickest journey.
PN73
In terms of fares that might be involved for a student to work a 1.5-hour shift, is it not true that if the student lived at Robina and worked at Robina but went to school in Miami, there would be no additional transport costs at all for that student and there would be no return fare that would have to be paid?---There would be a single fare if he worked - - -
PN74
A single fare that they would otherwise incur having to go to school in Miami and return to Robina but there would be no additional transport cost in respect of working a 1.5-hour shift?---He would need to pick up a bus in Robina to get to Miami in the first place to school and then - - -
**** TERRIE CARRINGTON XXN MS DUFF
PN75
That is what I’m suggesting, Ms Carrington, that a student who lived in Robina would catch a bus from Robina to Miami for the purposes of school, would then return from Miami to Robina at the conclusion of the school day. If they were working in Robina then there would be no additional transport cost at all for that particular student?---No, but there would still be the time of 44 minutes to get to Robina after school if he left at 2.53.
PN76
That wasn’t my question, Ms Carrington. I was asking whether you were prepared to acknowledge that there would be no additional transport cost. The journey of 44 minutes if a student is travelling from Miami to Robina is transport time that the student would be undertaking anyway if they were commuting between those two places?---Yes, and he’d be on a school bus which, for all intents and purposes, may even take longer than 44 minutes.
PN77
So would you agree that many students travel to and from school via a school bus route?---Yes, they do. Not all but they do.
PN78
So in terms of students that are utilising those school bus routes, there would be no additional transport cost if they were in fact working close to their high school in Miami or close to their home in Robina?---No, that’s right, as long as he can get a job in Robina. He might have to get a job in Pacific Fair or somewhere else, you know.
PN79
Would you also agree that it’s possible that some students after school would return home via their normal transport method and then they would proceed to work via some other method, such as their parents transporting them?---Yes, and the parent who’s paying $1.50 a litre for petrol to drop their - - -
PN80
Ms Carrington, that wasn’t my question. I was just asking you whether you would agree that that is in fact a possibility and that in that circumstance there is no out of pocket for additional fares?---Correct, yes.
**** TERRIE CARRINGTON XXN MS DUFF
PN81
Thank you, Ms Carrington. I have no further questions for Ms Carrington, your Honour.
PN82
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Anyone else like to cross-examine Ms Carrington?
PN83
MR MAMMONE: No, your Honour.
MR O’GRADY: No questions, your Honour.
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND [10.38AM]
PN85
MR FRIEND: Ms Carrington, you wanted to say something about parents paying $1.50 a litre for petrol. What was that, when you were cut off just then?---I’m sorry. If a school student goes home and the parent then needs to drive the student to the workplace, here we have the parent paying $1.50 a litre for petrol – that’s what it is on the Gold Coast this morning – and dropping the student at the school. Are they going to drive home again for the hour and a half or are they then going to sit outside and read a book while their child works for an hour and a half?
PN86
Thank you, Ms Carrington. May the witness be excused, your Honour?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. Thank you for your evidence, Ms Carrington. You’re excised from further attendance. You may step down.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.39AM]
<LUKE GEORGE SWETMAN, AFFIRMED [10.40AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DOWLING [10.40AM]
PN88
MR DOWLING: Mr Swetman, if you could just repeat your full name?---Luke George Swetman.
PN89
And your address?---(address supplied).
PN90
You are a student?---Yes.
PN91
Have you prepared a statement for the purposes of this proceeding?---Yes.
PN92
Is that a statement of three pages and 16 paragraphs?---Yes.
PN93
Is that statement true and correct?---Yes.
PN94
I seek to tender that, your Honour.
PN95
MS DUFF: Your Honour, there are two objections to the content of Mr Swetman’s statement. In paragraph 9 the witness is speculating about the views of other students. This is no more than an expression of opinion and, in our submission, no weight should be or can be attached to it. At paragraph 10 the witness claims to know the view of all casual employees, not just student casuals. Again, this is no more than an unfounded expression of the witness’s opinion and we would object to the receipt of those two paragraphs.
PN96
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Dowling.
PN97
MR DOWLING: Your Honour, both the paragraphs are prefaced by the word “in my experience” and he sets out in the preceding eight paragraphs what that experience is. Of course there’s a question of weight that might be attributed to the paragraphs but certainly, in our submission, he’s able to say from his experience the opinions of others that he works with or the views expressed to him by others that he works with or worked with.
**** LUKE GEORGE SWETMAN XN MR DOWLING
PN98
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Do you wish to respond to that, Ms Duff?
PN99
MS DUFF: Your Honour, as we read those paragraphs Mr Swetman doesn’t appear to be setting out there the experiences as told to him by fellow student casuals. Both paragraphs are prefaced by the statement “from my experience” but there is nothing in those paragraphs to explain what specific experiences he is referring to.
PN100
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I propose to allow the statement to stand. I have allowed some latitude on the nature of evidence that is permitted to be led in the proceedings. The matters that you raise can be the subject of cross-examination and submissions as to ultimate weight and your rights are reserved in relation to those matters.
PN101
MS DUFF: Thank you, your Honour.
MR DOWLING: Your Honour, I sought to tender that statement.
EXHIBIT #F4 STATEMENT OF LUKE SWETMAN
PN103
MR DOWLING: Mr Swetman, you’ve given your address as (suburb) in the state of Queensland. Can you just explain to his Honour whereabouts (suburb) is located?---(suburb) is an inner city suburb in Brisbane about (distance supplied) north-west of the CBD.
Thank you, Mr Swetman. One other matter. In paragraphs 6 through to 8 of your statement you describe your experience working at Cotton On in the Queen Street Mall and at paragraph 8 you state that you’d not have worked one and a half at that wage level. The trip in with the bus, train fare and buying a drink or food would have left you with no money. Can you just explain to his Honour what would be involved in the public transport trip from home to work at Cotton On and how long approximately that trip would take?---So the Cotton On, Queen Street – my home in (suburb) is about three zones in public transport which is, my understanding, the majority of public transport trips. For that one into the city that’s about a 25-minute trip. It’s a couple of dollars each way for the fare and on top of that – usually to go into the city is quite a long journey. So if you add on both sides the time and also in the money that I had to spend, if I was going to have lunch as well, it kind of overshadows the 1.5 hours of work, because I know that even on my university wage when I was there, that having to pay for lunch or food in general plus public transport, it just seems a bit kind of – there isn’t really any value there.
**** LUKE GEORGE SWETMAN XN MR DOWLING
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DUFF [10.45AM]
PN105
MS DUFF: Good morning, Mr Swetman. I just have a couple of questions for you regarding your statement, if I may. At paragraph 15 of your statement you state that you cannot see any benefit for students in working shorter shifts. Can you tell us please, Mr Swetman, is this view based on your own personal circumstances? You’ve just explained to his Honour the trouble involved from your home in (suburb) to Cotton On. So your statement that you can’t see any benefit of such short shift, is that based on your personal experience?---Yes, it’s based on my personal experiences. Would you like me to explain those?
PN106
No. I think we understand your circumstances, Mr Swetman. Would you agree that the circumstances of each student casual are different and that not every student across the country would prefer to work the same pattern of hours as a student such as yourself would choose to work?---I think every student has a different experience and different circumstances, yes.
PN107
So you would agree that for some students with circumstances and considerations that are substantially different from yours that working a shorter shirt of one and a half or two hours might be more suitable to them?---Well, for 1.5 hours I don’t really see – I can’t personally see the benefit for really anyone because the value isn’t really there. It’s so much time and effort that the – I can’t understand the benefit. I can understand that everyone has differing circumstances but even in extreme circumstances the benefit just really isn’t there.
PN108
Thank you. Your Honour, I was going to hand Mr Swetman a copy of an enterprise agreement that has recently been lodged by the SDA. The witness appearing via video-link makes that a little bit difficult. Would your Honour be satisfied if I read the clause that I was going to ask Mr Swetman to read from that agreement?
**** LUKE GEORGE SWETMAN XXN MS DUFF
PN109
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, as long as the witness can follow and hear properly and the question is fairly put.
PN110
MS DUFF: Mr Swetman, I’m going to read you now a clause from an enterprise agreement entitled the Ballajura Super IGA and SDA Agreement 2011. That clause reads, “The minimum engagement for a casual shall be for three consecutive hours of work, provided that casual school students may be engaged for a minimum of two hours between 4 pm and 7 pm Monday to Friday, provided that by agreement between the employee and the employer a casual school student may be engaged for a minimum of two hours between 3.30 pm and 7 pm Monday to Friday.” My question is this, Mr Swetman. Would you agree that clauses such as the one I’ve just read to you confirm that not everybody’s circumstances are the same and that shorter shifts are appropriate in certain circumstances?---I believe that in my last sentence where I confirm that I do believe that everyone’s circumstances are different. However, the issue of shorter shifts – 1.5 hours is too short and it’s different to two hours. There is a difference there between the two and so I don’t think that that’s entirely relevant in a 1.5-hour discussion.
PN111
But you’re suggesting that a 1.5 or a two-hour shift is not suitable to you because of your personal circumstances. Would you agree that it might be appropriate for a school student to do a short shift like that after school mid-week if the only employment possibility was in a store that closed at 5.30 pm, so they didn’t have the availability of a longer shift, or where a student had obtained employment a relatively short distance from their school or from their work and it was convenient because they’re parents worked in the same locality to collect them after that shift?---While I can understand that suggestion, I think in that situation it would be better for them to look for a different store of employment.
PN112
Thank you, Mr Swetman. I have no further questions, your Honour.
**** LUKE GEORGE SWETMAN XXN MS DUFF
PN113
MR MAMMONE: No questions, your Honour.
PN114
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Dowling.
PN115
MR DOWLING: No re-examination, your Honour.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you for your evidence, Mr Swetman. You may step down.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.49AM]
PN117
MR DOWLING: Your Honour, that concludes the video-link from Brisbane. I now call Ms Georgia Munro who’s here in person.
PN118
THE ASSOCIATE: Would you please state your full name and address?
MS MUNRO: Georgia Ruby Munro, (address supplied).
<GEORGIA RUBY MUNRO, SWORN [10.50AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DOWLING [10.51AM]
PN120
MR DOWLING: Ms Munro, could you please restate your full name?---Georgia Ruby Munro.
PN121
And your address?---(address supplied).
PN122
You’re a student?---Yes.
PN123
Have you prepared a statement for the purposes of this proceeding?---Yes, I have.
PN124
Can I hand you a document?---Thank you.
PN125
Is that the statement prepared by you?---Yes.
PN126
Is that a statement of 12 paragraphs just going onto a third page?---Yes.
PN127
Is that statement true and correct?---Yes, it is.
I seek to tender that statement, your Honour.
EXHIBIT #F5 STATEMENT OF GEORGIA MUNRO
PN129
MR DOWLING: Ms Munro, you state at paragraph 2 of your statement that you commenced at a shop called Sassy Accessories when you were 15. Do you recall the hourly rate you were being paid at that time?---The hourly rate I was being paid at the time I started was approximately $8 but I can’t remember the precise amount in dollars and cents.
At paragraph 10 of your statement you describe that you lived 30 minutes away from your employment by car and you say, “There was limited public transport.” Can you explain to his Honour what that limited public transport was and the duration of that trip if you were to take it?---Yes, I can. Your Honour, I live in (suburb) where there is extremely limited public transport. The closest train station for me, my parents would have to drive me approximately 20 minutes to Hurstbridge. I would then have to catch a train to Eltham where I worked. More recently, with development in my area there’s now a bus. However at the time I commenced work at Sassy Accessories that wasn’t an option. Even to get to a bus now I would have to be driven five to 10 minutes to the bus stop, catch the bus to Greensborough which is probably 40 to 45 minutes away and the backtrack to Eltham another 15 to 20 minutes. There is actually no way I could go from home on my own to work via public transport.
**** GEORGIA RUBY MUNRO XN MR DOWLING
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DUFF [10.54AM]
PN131
MS DUFF: Good morning, Ms Munro?---Good morning.
PN132
I just have a couple of questions for you about your statement, if I may. As I understand your statement, when you were school student you didn’t ever work on school days?---Maybe a handful of times in exceptional circumstances. For example, my boss once had to attend a funeral. On Tuesdays I finished school at approximately 2 pm. During my VCE I’d sometimes finish earlier due to free periods where I could make it there for a shift worth my while when the shop didn’t close until 5.30.
PN133
Did you know many students at your school who did work after school?---Yes, I did.
PN134
Would it be correct to say that the reason that you chose not to work after school was because you preferred to utilise this time for study or for riding horses?---Yes, it would.
PN135
Would you agree that for most students the decision to work or not to work after school hours is a decision that should be left to them as an individual?---I think there is and in some cases – I mean, I attended a school where it was a fair hike from my home. Some students may have had the opportunity to work right next to home where in that case it might have been more practical for them, more worthwhile to work after school.
PN136
So you would agree that there would be many factors that might be taken into account by a student together with the in-put of their parents in deciding whether or not it was appropriate for them to work after school?---Yes, I think in some cases it has to be taken into account the situation and the circumstances of that individual.
**** GEORGIA RUBY MUNRO XXN MS DUFF
PN137
Do you agree that actual study obligations as well as commitment to study varies considerably between students?---Yes, definitely.
PN138
Can you think of any reason why a student might prefer to work a short shift after school?---I mean, for me personally it wasn’t really an option or something I wanted to do. From my perspective, seeing lots of friends working after school, yes, they do it but they’d come to school the next day absolutely wrecked. They’re exhausted if they work the shift after school.
PN139
So you’re not aware why they would choose to work a shift after school as opposed to a late night or a weekend?---No.
PN140
Would you agree that if, say, six hours of paid work Monday to Friday was preferred by a particular student or students, that some students might prefer to work two three-hour shifts, others might prefer one five or six-hour shift and still others might prefer three two-hours?---In my opinion I wouldn’t agree. I think being a student, if you’re going to work you prefer to get it all out of the way in one. Otherwise you’re looking at staggering, say, six hours over five days or four days or three days even. The point is that then you’re taking into account – you’re losing lots of hours every day that week. You lose time for preparation to get there, getting home. I think it limits the amount of time you might have for things people my age do – socialising, playing sports or studying.
PN141
But if a student had considerably different circumstances that were to be taken into account, an arrangement of a shorter shift might actually suit them. It’s just that in your personal circumstances such an arrangement wasn’t a viable option for you. Is that correct?---Yes.
PN142
Would it surprise you if I said that in the restaurant industry and the hotel industry that two-hour minimum shifts are allowed?---Yes, it would.
**** GEORGIA RUBY MUNRO XXN MS DUFF
PN143
Would it also surprise you that it’s not uncommon for shorter shifts of two or one and a half hours are provided for in some enterprise agreements?---Can you repeat that question, sorry?
PN144
Would it surprise you if I said that it was not uncommon for enterprise agreements to provide for shorter shifts of two or one and a half hours?---No, I suppose not.
PN145
Your Honour, if I could hand the witness a copy of the agreement that I was going to hand to Mr Swetman, the Ballajura Super IGA and SDA Agreement 2011.
PN146
MR FRIEND: I wonder if we might have a copy of that, your Honour, that is being given to the witness.
PN147
MS DUFF: I’m sorry, I don’t have another one on me but I’m more than happy for you to retain it after she has read the one clause that I’m proposing to ask her to read.
PN148
MR DOWLING: I’m wondering if we may be permitted to look at first, your Honour.
PN149
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN150
MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour.
PN151
MS DUFF: Ms Munro, could I ask you to turn to the fourth page of that document. You’ll see that there is a paragraph that’s highlighted in yellow?---Yes.
PN152
Could I ask you to read that paragraph aloud, please?---Yes. “The minimum engagement casual shall be for three consecutive hours of work, provided that casual school students may be engaged for a minimum of two hours between 4 pm and 7 pm Monday to Friday, provided that by agreement between the employee and the employer a casual school student may be engaged for a minimum of two hours between 3.30 and 7 pm Monday to Friday.”
**** GEORGIA RUBY MUNRO XXN MS DUFF
PN153
Thank you, Ms Munro. Would you agree that this type of clause seems to suggest that in certain circumstances it may be appropriate for a casual to work a shorter shift of, say, two hours?---Suggested by this clause, yes.
PN154
Would you also agree that a student might appropriately work a short shift of 1.5 or two hours in circumstances where the only employment opportunities that were available to them were generated by stores that closed at 5.30 or 6 pm on weeknights?---I think as a student some work here and have – may only be the short hours that may suit your lifestyle, it may suit the shop’s opening hours but at some point you’re going to have to draw a line as to when you may be going backwards in money. The hourly rate in lots of cases isn’t huge. So if you’re looking at public transport there, even from school, then public transport home, there’s costs involved with that. So at what stage do you draw a line? I’m not sure how to answer that question, sorry.
PN155
Thank you, Ms Munro. I’ve no further questions, your Honour.
PN156
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Cross-examination?
PN157
MR O’GRADY: No questions, your Honour.
PN158
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Dowling.
PN159
MR DOWLING: No re-examination, your Honour.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you for your evidence, Ms Munro. You may step down and you’re excused from further attendance?---Thank you, your Honour.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.01AM]
PN161
MR FRIEND: We had anticipated that there might have been more cross-examination, your Honour. We’ve now run out of witnesses for the morning. We’ll see what we can do. I’m fairly certain that Dr Campbell isn’t available until this available and also that Mr Caranza can’t get here earlier because of his school commitments. The only possibility then is whether Mr Allen has a gap in his netball commitment but we could investigate that and contact your Honour’s associate if we can.
PN162
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think it’s much of a muchness now. If that 4.30 suits his commitments - - -
PN163
MR FRIEND: Yes. Your Honour, it’s pretty clear that we’ll get through the witnesses by tomorrow and we’ll see if we can move Dr Price to the afternoon and therefore complete the matter in the time allocated.
PN164
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN165
MR FRIEND: If your Honour would stand the matter down we’ll make some inquiries about Dr Price, whether she can come in the afternoon rather than the morning tomorrow. I take it that that’s your Honour’s preference, if the morning could be free.
PN166
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, it is. So what time tomorrow would be most suitable?
PN167
MR FRIEND: Well, tomorrow at the moment we’ve got Dr Price here first thing in the morning and Ms Buesnell flying, as I said to your Honour, from Orange and available in the afternoon. We will attempt to contact Dr Price if your Honour stands down now and see if we can change her to the afternoon. I’m just not sure what her travel arrangements are. We’ve made inquiries. She’s available in the afternoon, your Honour. So we could recommence at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon.
PN168
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. It appears that not a lot can be done in the meantime but perhaps I could - - -
PN169
MR FRIEND: Well, we do have witnesses this afternoon, your Honour.
PN170
THE VICE PRESIDENT: This afternoon, yes, between now and 2.15. Perhaps I could raise something with the parties, to think about more than anything. It arose from some of your questions, Ms Duff, of the witnesses this morning where you indicated that there were perhaps some school students with different circumstances and you indicated that there might be circumstances where the only employment possibility was for a limited engagement of less than three hours. The clause that you have proposed doesn’t limit the engagements of less than three hours to such circumstances.
PN171
The case of the union appears to be that there are many casual employees who are school students who would be affected by a change in their own arrangements where they are working engagements apparently satisfactorily of three hours or more. It might be that we’re talking about different groups of employees with different circumstances. The proposal that you have made might affect existing employees who are working satisfactorily other arrangements and, in seeking to open up opportunities to others, you’re affecting others that are currently in employment.
PN172
The submissions of the union also indicate that there are limitations on the clause that it proposed but there are not other limitations going to either the availabilities of the employees or the operational requirements of the employer. So the question I have for really everyone in these proceedings is whether it would be feasible to fashion additional conditions in the operation of a clause that went to the circumstance where a longer period of employment is not possible, either due to the unavailability of the employee or the operational requirements of the employer. I’m content for that matter to be considered and addressed in final submissions when we reach that point. We’ll now adjourn until 2.15.
<LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [11.07AM]
<RESUMED [2.17PM]
PN173
MR DOWLING: I call Christopher Caranza.
THE ASSOCIATE: Can you please state your full name and address?---Christopher Caranza, (address supplied).
<CHRISTOPHER CARANZA, SWORN [2.17PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DOWLING [2.18PM]
PN175
MR DOWLING: Mr Caranza, if you could please state your full name again---Christopher Caranza.
PN176
And your address?---(address supplied).
PN177
You’re a student?---Yes.
PN178
Have you prepared a statement for the purposes of this proceeding?---Yes, I have.
PN179
I’ll just hand you a document. Is that the statement prepared by you?---Yes, it is.
PN180
Is that a statement that runs for 16 paragraphs?---Yes.
PN181
Is it true and correct?---Yes, it is.
I tender that, your Honour.
EXHIBIT #F6 STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER CARANZA
PN183
MR DOWLING: Mr Caranza, at paragraph 2 of your statement you say your first job was at Powerhouse Fountain Gate when you were 15 years old. Do you see that?---Yes.
Can you tell his Honour the hourly rate that you were paid when you commenced that employment?---It was about $9 an hour.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DUFF [2.19PM]
PN185
MS DUFF: Good afternoon, Mr Caranza. I just have a couple of questions concerning your statement. Your statement explains that throughout your secondary schooling you worked after school on late-night trade and on weekends and that you were reliant on your parents to drive you to work. Is that correct?---Yes, it is.
**** CHRISTOPHER CARANZA XXN MS DUFF
PN186
Your preference as to what hours you worked were determined by a number of factors: your reliance on your parents to drive you to and from, your sporting commitments when you were still playing rugby, and your study commitments. Is that an accurate assessment?---Yes, it is.
PN187
Would you agree that many factors influence a student’s decision as to when they prefer to work, other concerns such as study, sport, parental support and availability, travel arrangements, travel time, et cetera?---Yes, I would.
PN188
So you would agree that for some students travel time and cost may not be a factor?---Yes, for some students.
PN189
So if a student lived near the place of work or it’s very convenient for a parent or someone else to do the transporting, transport is not an issue and shorter shift may be appropriate for that student?---For students like that, yes.
PN190
Are you aware that some enterprise agreements and other industrial instruments specifically acknowledge that it is appropriate in some circumstances for student casuals to work shorter shifts?---Yes, I am.
PN191
So the existence of such clauses, does that suggest to you that there are circumstances where working a shorter shift may be appropriate for a student casual?---Yes.
PN192
At paragraph 12 of your statement, Mr Caranza, you mention that it is not worth it for students to work a shorter shift. Can you tell me what you meant by this?---Well, for some students like me it’s really not worth travelling-wise and it affects the study as well. If it’s a shorter shift it’s not – you don’t get as much time to study. It interferes with that. Being a student like me, in that thing it just kind of messes around with your timetable that you have in a shift like that.
**** CHRISTOPHER CARANZA XXN MS DUFF
PN193
So what you’re really saying at paragraph 12 is that it’s not worth it for students in your particular set of circumstances?---Yes.
PN194
Would you agree that if there was no extra expense involved in travelling to work, such as where a student might have a yearly public transport ticket or works close to school or home or where parents are readily available to collect the students on their way home from work, that a shorter shift may be appropriate?---Yes.
PN195
In some towns the only employment opportunity might be to work in a store that closes at 5.30 or 6 pm on a school day. Would you say in that instance that a student might prefer to take up the opportunity to work a shorter shift of 1.5 or two hours?---Yes, in that instance.
PN196
Do you think that it might be reasonable for a student to work up to 12 hours a week?---Yes.
PN197
Do you acknowledge that in order to work a total of 12 hours a week some students may prefer to work two six-hour shifts whilst others might prefer to work five two and a half hours shifts?---Yes.
PN198
That’s all I have, your Honour.
PN199
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr O’Grady.
MR O’GRADY: No questions, thank you, your Honour.
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DOWLING [2.22PM]
PN201
MR DOWLING: You were asked some questions about some students that may prefer it. You’ve been working in the retail industry for two plus years. In that time have you ever come across any students that have expressed to you a desire to work one and a half hours shifts?---No, I haven’t.
**** CHRISTOPHER CARANZA RXN MR DOWLING
PN202
Nothing further, your Honour.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you for your evidence, Mr Caranza. You may step down and you’re excused from further attendance.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.23PM]
PN204
MR FRIEND: Your Honour, I call Dr Iain Campbell.
THE ASSOCIATE: Could you please state your full name and address?---Iain Graham Campbell, (address supplied).
<IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL, AFFIRMED [2.24PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND [2.24PM]
PN206
MR FRIEND: Your full name is Iain Graham Campbell?---Yes.
PN207
State your address, please?---(address supplied).
PN208
Can you look at this document, please. While that’s being handed to you, you’re a senior research fellow at the Centre for Applied Social Research at RMIT University?---Yes.
PN209
That document, is that a copy of a statement prepared by you in relation to this matter?---Yes.
PN210
If you turn to paragraph 25 on page 7?---Yes.
PN211
Is there a correction you wish to make to that paragraph?---Yes, there’s a minor correction in the third-last line. Instead of Teachers Federation, that should really be House of Representatives.
PN212
So it’s the House of Representatives percentage, 48.4 per cent, that’s referred to there?---Yes.
PN213
Very well, thank you. Aside from that change are the contents of that statement true and correct?---Yes.
PN214
I tender that, if your Honour pleases.
PN215
THE VICE PRESIDENT: That has one attachment from the earlier - - -
MR FRIEND: Which is a statement from the earlier proceedings, your Honour, yes.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XN MR FRIEND
EXHIBIT #F7 STATEMENT OF IAIN CAMPBELL
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DUFF [2.26PM]
PN217
MS DUFF: Good afternoon, Dr Campbell. Are you aware of the objects of the Fair Work Act 2009?---Roughly.
PN218
Are you aware that one of the objects of the Act refers to providing Workplace Relations laws that are flexible for businesses and promote productivity?---Yes.
PN219
Can you refer me to the parts in your statement where you consider the possibility that a shorter engagement period may increase business flexibility?---It’s considered somewhat indirectly and probably not at any great length when we discuss the proposed process of individual agreements, starting on page 14. I guess what I was saying is that I couldn’t see in the NRA application any substantive argument around that particular objective. So I wasn’t going to discuss it and, indeed, really it’s not something probably for me to discuss, is it?
PN220
Thank you. Can you refer me to any parts of your statement where you consider whether the productivity of businesses may be improved if a shorter minimum hours period was allowed?---Well, that was discussed at reasonable length in my first statement last year. If you bear with me for a moment I’ll take you to the relevant paragraph. Paragraph 22 in the first statement considers the argument that it could very well be true that shorter minimum daily engagements are bad for productivity from the point of view of the employer. Can you see that paragraph?
PN221
22?---Yes, in the first statement in attachment A, page 8 on attachment A.
PN222
Yes?---I cite there some evidence from the International Labour Organization which suggests that the impact of regulations around working time can very well be favourable to workplace productivity.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MS DUFF
PN223
Thank you, Dr Campbell. Are you aware that the objects of the Fair Work Act acknowledged the special circumstances of small and medium-sized businesses?---No, I’m not actually aware. I’ve probably not taken account of that.
PN224
That was going to be my next question, could you point me to any parts of your statement that consider that particular object of the Act. Are there any parts of your statement where you consider the many challenges and operational difficulties that employers face in rostering staff and managing their labour costs?---Again, I feel that I considered that to some extent in my very first statement last year.
PN225
That’s all right. You don’t need to find me a specific paragraphs?---Okay, good.
PN226
Could you refer me to any parts in your statement which demonstrate that you have weighed up the interests of both employers and employees in evaluating the merit of the current application?---I feel I did that fairly – I’m not sure that that’s my task but, nevertheless, I do pay attention to that and I feel that I did, in that first statement at attachment A, consider what’s in the interests of employers as well as in the interests of employees.
PN227
Do you understand, Dr Campbell, that this tribunal and its predecessors when adjudicating on matters such as the current application have traditionally taken into account the views of both employers and employees?---Yes.
PN228
MR FRIEND: Your Honour, I’m not sure that that question is going to be helpful to the tribunal at all, in answer to that.
PN229
THE VICE PRESIDENT: It might have already been answered.
PN230
MR FRIEND: Yes, your Honour.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MS DUFF
PN231
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I’ll allow the question. I’m not too sure what the significance of the line of cross-examination is either but - - -
PN232
MS DUFF: I hope it will become apparent in a moment, your Honour.
PN233
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN234
MS DUFF: Are you aware that the tribunal traditionally takes account of both sides, employees’ and employers’ perspectives?---Yes.
PN235
Would you agree that your statement is overly skewed towards employees’ circumstances and doesn’t in any significant manner attempt to factor in the views or the circumstances of employers?---No, I wouldn’t agree with that.
PN236
So you wouldn’t accept that your statement is biased towards the interests of employees?---No.
PN237
Can you refer me to any pieces of research cited in your statement that were commissioned by an employer or an employer organisation?---Well, I refer at reasonable length to both the NRA submission in this particular case and to an earlier ARA submission and to - - -
PN238
But no significant research work that you’ve undertaken that has been commissioned by – apart from the submissions in connection with this proceeding, does your statement cite any pieces of research that were commissioned by employers or employer organisations?
PN239
MR FRIEND: How can the witness know? There are a number of pieces of research referred to. I’m not sure from what was said whether it’s research undertaken by the witness or undertaken by anyone that’s referred to. The first one obviously the witness can answer. The second one might be more difficult for him.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MS DUFF
PN240
MS DUFF: I appreciate that, your Honour, but the question is aimed at research that is cited in Dr Campbell’s statement?---Certainly if I’d found anything that I thought was relevant to the case that had been commissioned by the employer associations I would have been quite happy to cite it, but my quite extensive trawl through the literature in those areas that I’m an expert in, which are to do with employees working time patterns, survey methodology, types of employment, the retail industry, I found nothing that I saw that was – I don’t think, although I’d have to comb through my references to double-check, but there’s nothing directly that I can think of that might have been commissioned by an employer association. I’d be quite happy to entertain any suggestions about literature that I have missed in this, specific bits of literature rather than general categories of literature, because surely that would be the test of whether the statement is comprehensive in its scope or not.
PN241
Thank you. You’ve appeared in many proceedings before state and federal tribunals, I assume, Dr Campbell?---No, not very many.
PN242
You’ve appeared before this tribunal and its predecessors before, though?---I appeared last year before Vice President Watson.
PN243
In the previous matter. Has any of the research that’s specifically referred to in your statement been commissioned or funded by a trade union?---Any of the research that I’ve cited in my literature search?
PN244
Referred to in your statement filed in this or in the previous proceeding?---Let me just consult. ABS. ACCI, there you go. There’s an issues paper on youth employment, the very first piece of literature that’s commissioned by either a trade union or an employer association. It’s in fact an employer association. ARA. Ashendon, no, that’s not. No, no, Dewer, no. Fair Work Ombudsman, no, that’s not trade union. House of Representatives, no. ILO, no, but a tripartite body, perhaps that could be counted for both employer associations and for trade unions. Lee, McCann, McDonald, McDonald. No, no, no, no. Ah, New South Wales Teachers Federation, there you go. That’s probably a piece of – coming in at number (n) there’s a piece of research that has been clearly, I guess, commissioned by a trade union. Let me keep going just a moment, just a moment, just a moment. Ah, Schlueter and Houghton 2005, yes, that’s commissioned by South Australian unions. Trades Union Congress. On my count we’ve got three pieces of literature out of I don’t know how many could be said to be commissioned by a trade union. Two pieces commissioned by an employer association. Of course, each of those would have to stand on their scholarly merit. They’re not here because they’ve been commissioned by a trade union or commissioned by an employer association. They’re here because they’re relevant to the issues in the case before us.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MS DUFF
PN245
Certainly. I accept that. So there are various pieces of research that are referred to in your statement that have been prepared by trade unions but none of the specific research that you have conducted that you mentioned has been funded by a trade union?---That I’ve conducted?
PN246
Yes?---Well, it depends, I guess, what you mean by research but, no, when I did my retail study in 2006, the survey of retail employees, that research was commissioned by the Australian Research Council in the competitive process in which, as you perhaps may be aware, academics put forward proposals for research – I put forward a proposal for research around quality of part-time employment and one of the case studies for that was on the retail industry. I should say that there are two pieces of literature by me that are cited in this particular statement. One emerges from that project, so funded by the Australian Research Council, and that’s that piece, Charlesworth and Campbell, around the right to request regulation. There’s another much more minor piece of literature which was the result of a request from the House of Representatives magazine to write a piece around the issue of workforce participation in the wake of the inter-generational report in 2002. So those are the only two pieces of research by myself that I have cited, at least in this statement, but of course I would regard part of what I’ve done for the sake of a statement as research. I conducted an independent review of the literature on schoolchildren and employment and I’d call that research. Does that answer your question?
PN247
It does, thank you. Moving on to a different issue, do you consider the closing time of retailers to be a relevant issue in this matter?---I couldn’t see how it was a relevant issue. It was clearly quite relevant last year but I found it difficult to see, given the nature of the application, where closing hours came in.
PN248
So there aren’t any parts of your statement where your views or observations have needed to take into account the closing time of retailers?---Do I see – I’m sorry, I missed that question.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MS DUFF
PN249
There are no parts of your statement where you have taken that factor into account because you considered it not relevant?---I’m hoping that this statement will be seen as a statement that will be of assistance to the tribunal for this particular case but that it will be read in conjunction with the statement that I’ve included as attachment A. In attachment A there’s a number of references to closing hours.
PN250
In paragraph 21 of your statement, Dr Campbell, you say that little information exists on the average length of shifts for schoolchildren. Have you in any your research ever tried to collect any such information?---I should have said there “little statistical information exists”. Have I tried to collect such information?
PN251
Yes?---Again, I guess it depends on what you call the collecting of information but I’ve taken the opportunity in the months leading up to this hearing to ask as many friends of my daughter as I can about their experience of shifts, including shifts in retail. That’s just to try and sort of sensitive myself to the issue. No, I’d be quite happy to – I think that would require a proper survey to do. I think it would be an interesting issue but we can more or less fairly safely assume that the length of the shifts are going to be around three or four hours, I would have thought, with perhaps longer shifts on the weekend. In my experience talking to people, most schoolchildren are doing shifts of around four hours or three hours, sometimes five hours.
PN252
In paragraph 40 of your statement you say that there is no direct evidence on the length of shifts that schoolchildren prefer. Apart from asking the questions of your daughter’s friends, have you ever tried to collect any evidence concerning the preferred length of shifts?---This would be a classic case for an independent survey but, again, we can make fairly reasonable assumptions, I think, based on our knowledge of schoolchildren and perhaps listening to the evidence of schoolchildren. I would have thought they’re unlikely to differ significantly from other employees and they’re likely to prefer a shift that’s sufficiently long to amortise their costs in terms of travel and preparation and that would justify the things that they have foregone in terms of time. As I suggest in that paragraph as well, they’re likely to prefer a shift that will generate a sufficient sum of money to meet their needs.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MS DUFF
PN253
Following on the same topic, Dr Campbell, you also say at paragraph 40 that there is no reason to think that they will differ significantly from other employees?---Not significantly, no.
PN254
So there hasn’t been any data collected around that proposition?---No statistical data, you mean? Not so far as I’m aware of.
PN255
You’re not aware of any credible research that specifically investigated whether school students’ preferences in terms of the lengths of shifts differ from the preferences of other employees?---I’m not familiar with any evidence along those lines.
PN256
At paragraph 22 you say that there is a lack of separate data on travel time for employed schoolchildren?---I’m sorry, paragraph?
PN257
22?---Yes.
PN258
Have you ever had occasion in any of your research to try and collect such information?---I should perhaps say that I’ve had occasion to look for that information, which is why I’ve kind of noted the relative lack of information on these things, because I’ve made a bit of an effort to try and search around for data on these issues.
PN259
But to you knowledge there is no such research?---On the travel time of employed schoolchildren.
PN260
Correct?---No.
PN261
Does any of the research that you have considered about student casuals differ much between the main employee industries of student casuals?---Yes. Perhaps you better – I’m sorry, could you perhaps repeat that question?
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MS DUFF
PN262
Does any of the research with which you are familiar about student casuals – is there much difference between the main employment industries of student casuals, say between retail and another industry that - - -?---Well, there’s often discussion about specific employment patterns in, for example, fast food. Obviously we could include that as a retail area but, given that it’s not under the general retail industry award, it’s worth separating it out. There are particular demand patterns that are associated with the fast-food industry that you won’t find necessarily in other areas where schoolchildren are employed. There’s also a bit of discussion, and I think perhaps even with retail, about different working time patterns. It partly depends on the nature of the organisation and the nature of the branch of retailer. To my mind there’s probably not enough information but there’s a little bit of reflection, I think, around in the reasonably good literature that we do have on the employment of schoolchildren.
PN263
So you would obviously be aware of the minimum hours provisions that are operative in the hospitality and the restaurant industries, the fact that - - -?---I’m not, no.
PN264
- - - modern awards provide for a minimum engagement of two hours in industries other than retail?---No, I haven’t researched that for the purposes of this case.
PN265
Dr Campbell, in paragraphs 51 to 56 you make various observations about the amendment sought by the NRA in the application in this matter. Are you aware that the amendment that is in fact sought is similar to terms that have been agreed to by the SDA in a number of enterprise agreements?---No, I’m not familiar with that.
PN266
I’d like to hand the witness a copy of the Cellarbrations Geraldton, Chapman Road and SDA Agreement 2011. Could I ask you to turn to page 7 of that document, please, Dr Campbell, and read to us aloud the highlighted clause there concerning casual employees?---5F, Casual Employees, “The minimum engagement shall be for three consecutive hours of work, provided that (1) casual school students may be engaged for a minimum of two hours between 4 and 7 pm Monday to Friday, provided that by agreement between the employee and the employer a casual school student may be engaged for a minimum of two hours between 3.30 and 7 pm Monday to Friday.”
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MS DUFF
PN267
Would you agree that that clause you’ve just read is similar to the amendment sought by the NRA in the current application?---But without the provision for agreement, is it? There’s an overlap. Yes, there’s an obvious overlap.
PN268
So the arguments set out in paragraphs 51 onward of your statement as they apply to the NRA’s application would apply also equally to provisions like that in enterprise agreements which the SDA has negotiated with various retailers?---Well, my points in 51 to 53, is it, that you’re – my point there is about the process of individual agreement and whether or not that’s an adequate safeguard for vulnerable employees. So unless there’s a process of agreement in this particular enterprise agreement, I don’t see – we’re stretching to try and link the two.
PN269
So the same process can be leveled at that clause?---I don’t know. My point is about processes of agreement and what we should be very careful about when we develop processes of agreement. Here we don’t have a process of agreement. So it seems to me largely by the by. I should say, look, I have no idea what was going through the minds of the parties when they made that agreement. Obviously enterprise bargaining is a process of trade-offs and I have no idea what was being bargained over when this particular clause was developed. I’d be interested in asking, but to me it’s the first time I’ve seen it. I’d be interested to see whether there were benefits for employees in the rest of the agreement that might be seen as compensating for this, or perhaps there are other restrictions that minimise the deleterious effects of such a clause. To me you’d have to see it in context of the agreement as a whole, perhaps in the context of the bargaining process in that particular enterprise.
PN270
Thank you, Dr Campbell. If I could take you to paragraph 72 of your statement now?---Yes, I’m at 72.
PN271
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MS DUFF
In that paragraph you are somewhat critical of the evidence given by Mr Gary Black in this proceeding because he did not point out that the 1.2 million retail employees, the number that he referred to in his evidence, is really one million. That’s correct?---Am I critical?
PN272
Yes?---Yes, mildly critical.
PN273
At paragraph 29 of your statement filed in connection with the previous proceeding you appear to mention the same figure of 1.2 million without explaining that that is in fact made up of two constituent parts. Do you think it’s possible that Mr Black’s reference to 1.2 million could have been based on your expression in paragraph 29 of your previous statement?---Let me find paragraph 29. I can see where I’ve said 1.2 million workers. Mr Black, insofar as I’m critical, mildly critical in this respect, has made that kind of characteristic slide from employed persons to employees. So it deserves a sort of mild rebuke, I think. I don’t want to make a big deal out of it. No doubt he has other sources of evidence other than my statement for that. Perhaps insofar as I was critical I would have thought he could have provided a reference for a figure like that.
PN274
Thank you, Dr Campbell. At paragraph 73 you note Mr Black’s statement that approximately one young person in two relies on retail for a job, and you make the remark that retail employment is indeed important for young people but not to this extent?---Yes.
PN275
In your statement filed in connection with the previous proceeding at paragraph 38 you make an observation which states as follows: “15 to 19-year-olds employed part time in retail are clearly a substantial part, around 40 per cent, of the overall group of 15 to 19-year-olds who are employed part time in all industries. In short, retail is the major site of employment for 15 to 19-year-olds, including full-time schoolchildren”?---Yes.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MS DUFF
PN276
Is that information correct?---Yes, so far as I can see.
PN277
Also in paragraph 25 in your statement in this matter you refer to a House or Representatives survey which generated a figure of 48.4 per cent for the proportion of employed students who were employed in retail?---Yes.
PN278
Is that percentage correct?---Well, as I suggest in that paragraph, there are a number of estimates but that’s an accurate rendition of the House of Representatives figure.
PN279
So you would agree that, given the estimates of between 40 and 48.5 per cent, the retail industry is the major employer of full-time students and that Mr Black’s statement that approximately one in two persons relies on retail for a job is largely correct?---No, no. You’re making the jump – this is precisely the point of the criticism. You can’t jump from saying, for example let’s say, as the House of Representatives does, 48 per cent of employed schoolchildren to saying 48 per cent of all young people. Most young people are not employed. It’s a quite different kind of population, it’s a quite different denominator that we’re talking about and it’s very important to try and keep them separate or else we end up with what I would regard as rather foolish figures, as I’ve criticised in paragraph 73. These are quite different populations that we’re talking about. Employed schoolchildren, all young people, 15 to 24 or – well, we don’t quite know what Mr Black means by a “young person” there but you just look at that statement and you know straight off that it’s not true if you’ve had some sort of familiarity with the statistical data on retail employment. “One young person in two relies on retail for a job.” It’s nowhere near accurate.
PN280
So if Mr Black had instead said approximately one employed student in two relies on retail for a job, would that be accurate?---That’s fine, yes. Can you see how that’s a totally different proposition?
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MS DUFF
PN281
Yes, I appreciate the difference?---Okay, thank you.
PN282
I have no further questions for Dr Campbell, your Honour.
PN283
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Dr Campbell, can I ask you – it’s relevant to your answers you’ve just given. At paragraph 15 of your most recent statement you speak of the international comparison and the proportion of schoolchildren in paid employment in Australia being higher than in most other OECD countries. Do you know what the actual figures, approximately, are in Australia and other countries? It’s from the House of Representatives report, I see?---Yes, as in the previous paragraphs, there’s that figure from the House of Representatives of around 36.7 per cent at any one point in time. I did a quick look around to try and get the figures for other countries but most of the time I couldn’t find the actual data. There would be a statement saying that Australia is one of the leading countries. I’ve seen it cited as second in the OECD for the proportion of schoolchildren who are employed. The same group of countries are always referred to. But when there’s data it tended to slip into data for young people. Again, Australia of course is well up in the top of the OECD rankings for the high proportion of young people who are employed but I couldn’t get the exact comparisons in that quick review that I did.
PN284
You quoted that to make the point that you consider that if it’s one of the highest then that suggests that there may be very few barriers to employment of schoolchildren in Australia?---Yes.
PN285
You’re not making any judgment or it’s not possible to indicate what an optimum level of employment might be, whether it’s the level in Australia or a lower level internationally. That’s a different question altogether, is it not?---I’d be reluctant to make that sort of judgment.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MS DUFF
PN286
Then later in the paragraph there appears to be, by reference to the OECD publication, a different comparison based on youth employment, the level of youth employment, and you say Australia ranks relatively highly?---Yes, and you can get data for that. Indeed, I forgot to reference it, although it was referenced in my first statement last year, that the ABS did a publication in 2007 which compared Australia with a select group of other comparable countries for the employment of, I think, 15 to 19-year-olds. That was the UK, the US, Canada, New Zealand and Sweden, and Australia was the highest out of that group for the employment of, I think, 15 to 19-year-olds, for both males and females.
PN287
Did that correspond logically or in the data to a lower level of youth unemployment or are we talking different things, insofar as there might be students amongst the class?---They are slightly different things but it generally corresponds to relatively low levels of youth unemployment in Australia compared to other countries.
PN288
Do you know what the absolute figures are in that comparison? It’s suggested there’s a significant discrepancy between the general unemployment level and youth unemployment level in Australia?---That’s right. Generally, youth unemployment will always be higher than adult unemployment for a number of quite good reasons, because youths tend to move in and out of jobs, but the last figures that I looked at, I think they were suggesting an OECD average of around 19 per cent for youth unemployment – and I’d have to double-check what the definition of youth was – whereas the figure in Australia was somewhere around 12 per cent. So it’s a reduction of – if you like I can go and check these figures but it’s roughly of that kind of magnitude. You know, 12 per cent is of course a lot higher than 5 per cent, which might be the general rate of unemployment in the Australian community, but it’s a lot less than the OECD average of 19 per cent.
PN289
I’m just wondering the basis for the conclusions, tentative or otherwise, in that paragraph. You indicate that the first statistics indicate that there are few barriers to employment of schoolchildren in Australia. What’s the basis for that conclusion?---It’s an inference from the fact that a relatively large number of schoolchildren and a relatively large proportion of schoolchildren are employed in Australia compared to other countries. So that would suggest that compared to other countries there are relatively few barriers to the employment of schoolchildren. Cultural, for example, or - - -
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MS DUFF
PN290
Might it indicate the influence of factors such as junior rates or something of that nature, the attractiveness of employment?---I suspect so, yes.
PN291
The same in relation to the second inference relating to the comparison of youth employment? There might be a whole number of different factors at play here, could there not?---I suspect that there are a large number of factors, including, one could say, cultural factors as well, that we tend to approve more of our children being employed and combining study with paid work, whereas in a number of other countries that’s regarded with more suspicion.
PN292
Yes?---Indeed, there’s often a different structure of education in some countries.
PN293
Yes, thank you. Anything arising from that, Ms Duff, that you wish to ask further - - -
No, your Honour.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAMMONE [3.03PM]
PN295
MR MAMMONE: Dr Campbell, we meet again. Different circumstances but very similar. Dr Campbell, I just want to take you to – I’ll probably do this sequentially in your statement. If I can just start with paragraph 5, in paragraph 5 you state, in reference to the first statement that you made in the 2010 matter, “The employer argument focused on selected instances where the three-hour minimum allegedly conflicted with the operational needs of the retail business. The argument pointed to a possible impact on a group of employed schoolchildren who were previously employed on less than three-hour shifts and who were allegedly disadvantaged by the introduction of the modern award.” In preparing this statement did you consider or refer to have regard to the decision of this tribunal in the original application? I’m not referring to the appeal matter but to the original application whereby this tribunal dismissed the application sought. Did you refer to that decision?---I’m sure I’ve read the decision.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR MAMMONE
PN296
If I could just hand you a copy of that decision. I’ll just take you to a number of paragraphs. At paragraph 17 of that decision it refers to, “The NRA led evidence from two secondary school students from Terang Secondary College in Terang in south-western Victoria.” It goes on to say that, “They gave evidence that they lost their jobs because the award required a minimum engagement of three hours and they were only available after school from approximately 4 pm until the store closed at 5.30 pm.” Those two witnesses are Leticia Harrison and Matthew Spencer. Continuing within that paragraph it goes on to say, “The NRA also led evidence from the owner of a newsagency in suburban Adelaide who said that in 2010 he had ceased to offer afternoon shifts to school students as they were not able to work the three-hour minimum engagement after school before his shop closed at 5.30 pm.” Paragraph 18 goes on to state, “The MGA led evidence from three employers that operate small supermarket businesses in country Victoria.” I’ll take you to paragraph 32 of that decision. The third sentence states, “However, it has become apparent that the change from two to three hours in some areas has led to less employment of school students after school because their availability to work during shop opening hours is often less than three hours. The impact on individuals in that situation is significant and has an impact on employment opportunities for youth in regional areas in particular. It also has an impact on the flexibilities available to employers and other employees.” Now, going back to your statement, do you still accept that the argument is a possible impact on a group of employed schoolchildren or an actual impact?---I think the issue, as I’m trying to get at in that paragraph, is the numbers. I don’t necessarily disagree that there might have been an impact on one or two individuals, although I’d want to look very closely and perhaps I haven’t looked as closely as you have or the tribunal has but I’d want to look a little bit closely into those regional cases. But the question is one of numbers. How many people are in that situation? I go on in that very next sentence. I say that this group, insofar as it existed, must be very small. My issue here is to do with numbers. How significant a group is this rather than whether or not, really, it exists.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR MAMMONE
PN297
I accept that?---I’m summarising my evidence, of course, in the previous statement rather than trying to give my opinion nowadays.
PN298
Sure. So do you accept that there was a negative impact in terms of – at least for two individual school-age employees in Terang specifically because of the minimum engagement period in the modern award? Do you accept that proposition?---Because of the change from the two hours under the Victorian award to the three hours?
PN299
Correct?---I’d want to have a look at it closely and look at the evidence of the change for myself.
PN300
If I could summarise the evidence for you - - -
PN301
MR FRIEND: Well, your Honour, I’m at something of a disadvantage because we haven’t got a copy of the decision and there’s some parts that haven’t been read to the witness, might want to draw his attention to because the questions might be unfairly framed. Perhaps if my learned friend could make a copy available to us.
PN302
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think it’s finding its way along the bar table.
PN303
MR FRIEND: Thank you, your Honour.
PN304
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Please proceed, Mr Mammone.
PN305
MR MAMMONE: The evidence in that matter, insofar as the two individual witnesses are concerned, is that they lose their employment as a result of the operation of the minimum engagement period?---Well, see, I guess this is where maybe I have difficulties. I could see where you could lose your shift but whether you lost all shifts is a different kettle of fish. Now, as I understand it, at least one of those two employees still had shifts at the weekend in that particular hardware store. So they didn’t lose their job in the sense of their employment at that hardware store. They might very well have lost shifts for whatever reason but I was a bit doubtful and I’d want to look more closely at the evidence in order to check this point about whether they lost what you could call their job.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR MAMMONE
PN306
But in preparing this new statement I recall you initially saying you did have regard to the decision but now you’re saying you would need to go back and check the actual decision and the evidence led?---I’ve read the decision. I didn’t say, did I, that I had regard to the decision.
PN307
MR FRIEND: No, he probably didn’t say that, your Honour?---I mean, I think it’s a powerful decision and I read it but my statement here is around the issues for this particular case. I’m trying to hone in on that in order to provide some sort of assistance.
PN308
MR MAMMONE: Thank you, Dr Campbell. Continuing with your statement, at paragraph 6 you state that, in your judgment, granting the application would be a disadvantage to many secondary school students who are currently working shifts in retail of three hours or more. “They or others yet to join the workforce might be obliged to accept reduced daily hours if the amendment was made.” Just picking that apart, the first sentence, your judgment, is that based on any modelling of the impact if this application is granted on secondary students generally or in the retail sector?---That paragraph is a sort of summary of the conclusions of the rest of the statement.
PN309
So it’s drawn from - - -?---It’s drawn from the evidence that I present in the rest of the statement and, to some extent, it probably also alludes to arguments that were advanced in the initial statement.
PN310
I recall from your evidence in the initial application last year that you had no qualifications in economic modelling or of that nature?---No, I’m not an econometrician I don’t do modelling.
PN311
The second sentence, when you say, referring to the secondary school students, that they might be obliged to accept reduced daily hours, how is that consistent with paragraph 3 of your statement whereby you quote from the application of the NRA, a clause which would say the employee agrees to work and a parent or guardian of the employee agrees to allow the employee to work a shorter period than three hours? How is that they may be obliged if there must be consent?---As I hope I explained in great length in paragraphs 51 to 57, I regard that process of agreement as not being sufficient to protect vulnerable employees such as schoolchildren from the pressure of employers and, in that sense, despite a process of agreement it still may nevertheless be the case that schoolchildren may be obliged or may feel obliged to accept reduced shifts of one and a half hours instead of their current three hours.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR MAMMONE
PN312
Part of your consideration of the literature is – at paragraph 54 you refer to Australian workplace agreements and the research that you’ve cited in regards to the operation of AWAs?---That’s one part of the building block in the argument.
PN313
So are you saying that this provision, if operational, would be akin to an individual agreement?---Yes. It’s an agreement and it’s framed in terms of an agreement between the employer and the individual student. So in that sense it’s an individual agreement.
PN314
Is your opposition to individual agreements per se or to individual agreements that don’t have particular protections or additional safeguards, if I could use that term?---No, it’s to individual agreements that don’t have adequate safeguards.
PN315
Adequate safeguards, okay?---As I think I hope I made very, very clear in paragraphs 52 and 53, that although certain forms of individual agreements are useful and indeed welcome, others might be regarded as a little bit more unwelcome. I just don’t see this particular process as being sufficient to – given the weight of opinion, scholarly and in policy circles, about the dangers of individual agreements, I don’t see this particular process as being adequate.
PN316
Dr Campbell, you’re aware that under the Fair Work Act modern awards must have an individual flexibility arrangement - - -?---Yes.
PN317
- - - have a term under a modern award, and enterprise agreements must also have an individual flexibility agreement?---Yes.
PN318
You have no objection to the clauses under modern awards which give effect to the individual flexibility arrangements?---I haven’t quite made up my mind. I’m waiting for – there are a number of people doing research about how they work in practice. I’ve referred to this issue in paragraph 55 and I’ve referred to the kind of critiques that have been advanced by some labour lawyers about that mandatory flexibility term and I’ve suggested that, really, probably that debate about whether it’s good or bad can wait. What’s striking from the point of view of this case is that the number of safeguards and conditions that are built into those individual flexibility arrangements that are proscribed, that are a part of the flexibility terms – and I’ve gone through what I see as the main safeguards that are involved there. The agreement needs to be in writing, it’s only over a carefully selected number of matters, it needs to be signed by both the employer and the employee. There’s an attempt to make sure that there’s no undue influence or pressure by making sure that the agreement can only be agreed after the commencement of employment. I think that’s quite important. Probably even more important is the fact that the individual employee can withdraw from the agreement, obviously with the agreement of the employer. They can do that immediately but they can do it with, I believe, 28 days’ notice.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR MAMMONE
PN319
That’s paragraph 55 that you’re referring to?---Yes. So these are quite strong safeguards compared to the process of agreement that is being offered in this particular case, in my opinion.
PN320
In your opinion, if the additional safeguards that you’ve referred to were included in the application, would that satisfy you in terms of the protections for employees?---I’m not sure, I’m not sure. Probably not but - - -
PN321
What else would you want if that’s probably not?---I just don’t know if it’s fair to have specially targetted measures for schoolchildren that we don’t have for other employees when we know that schoolchildren are a vulnerable group. Their needs and interests are much the same as other groups around minimum daily engagements. Why are we saying that schoolchildren can be subject to this particular process and not other employees?
PN322
But you’re aware that these – I’m going to call them IFAs – individual flexibility arrangements in modern awards, IFAs I’ll refer to them, these IFAs apply to anyone covered by the award, including schoolchildren?---Yes.
PN323
So they currently apply to schoolchildren?---Yes, that seems fair.
PN324
If I could take you to paragraph 20 of your statement, you refer to the Dewer submission which referred to unpublished ABS data to suggest – and you’ve extracted a quote, “Most school students were working low to moderate hours with a significant proportion working around six to 10 hours per week.” Then you go on to say, “Much of the debate on this issue concerns the danger of too many hours and the risk that this might interfere with school work. It seems generally agreed that, though a small minority of schoolchildren were working relatively long hours, it is not a widespread problem.” Do you believe, in your opinion, that the danger – you’ve referred to the danger of too many hours in the debate. Do you believe that the danger is too many hours or too few hours? If you had to weigh one up over the other, what - - -?---No, I think the main danger and the opinion of most scholars and policy-makers is too many hours over the course of the week or the year or the term. I think that’s the main danger.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR MAMMONE
PN325
Okay, thank you. At paragraph 31 of your statement you say, “A central rationale in the application for variation concerns an objective of promoting social inclusion through increased workforce participation.” Then at paragraph 32 you say, “Increased workforce participation is a worthwhile goal. The main groups usually cited as having a potential for increased workforce participation in Australia are the older age (55 to 64 years) groups as well prime-age women.” In paragraph 33 you state, “Secondary schoolchildren are not normally included in Australian discussions of the need to increase workforce participation. The only time I have read about such a connection has been in the context of employer applications to reduce the minimum daily engagement for casuals. Indeed, I regard this connection as strange.” If I can hand up two documents, and I’ll provide the SDA with this as well as the tribunal. Your Honour, I apologise. I will hand up my copy to you as soon as I refer to it. I haven’t got enough copies, unfortunately.
PN326
Now, two separate documents, one is extracted from the government Social Inclusion web site and it’s headed National Strategy for Young Australians, in which case the second document headed national Strategy for Young Australians is a 36-page document. In our written submissions we attach an extract and I’ll just take you, Dr Campbell, to that extract. It’s at page 22. It is in our written materials. It’s attached to the youth issues paper at the back of that document. I just wanted to take you, Dr Campbell – firstly I’ll ask you, are you familiar with this publication by the Australian government? It was released on 14 April 2010?---The National Strategy for Young Australians?
PN327
Yes?---No.
PN328
You’re not aware of it. So you didn’t consider it when you were compiling your statement?---No. Did you say when that came out, did you?
PN329
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR MAMMONE
14 April 2010. The document that’s extracted from the web site doesn’t say the year but that is the year that was released. As I say, it was referred to in our Youth Issues paper which was something that you did refer to in your statement?---Yes.
PN330
In the box headed – it’s on page 22 – Why is Employment a Priority for Action, the second paragraph, quoting directly from this, “Young people are an important part of Australia’s working age population. Working people pay income taxes that support government spending, including on health, aged care, the social safety net and education. Young people’s participation in the workforce will become increasingly important to the economy as the population ages.” The third paragraph refers to the youth unemployment rate rising to 11.8 per cent in March 2010 from 8.7 per cent in September 2008 at the onset of the global financial crisis. On page 23 under the heading What Did the National Conversation Reveal about Young People and Work there’s a number of paragraphs. You see those in front of you, Dr Campbell?---Yes.
PN331
Would you say, having regard to this document now that you admit you hadn’t considered during preparation of your statement, that it actually is not strange to connect issues of workforce participation insofar as it applies to school-age children and work and that it appears to be something that the government itself has considered in the context of workforce participation in general?---Well, on my reading of it, this would support my point, I would have thought, that to see a connection between schoolchildren and increasing participation in the workforce is a bit of a strange connection. There’s certainly an extensive discussion, as I went on to say in the next paragraph, about young people and social inclusion and workforce participation and, to me, this document looks very much as if it’s confirming that point. Perhaps you could draw my attention to the point where you think there’s a passage which refers specifically to school students and a goal of increasing their workforce participation.
PN332
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR MAMMONE
Well, you say in your paragraph 33, Dr Campbell, that secondary schoolchildren are not normally included in Australian discussions of the need to increase workforce participation. In this extract it does refer to young people being 15 to 24-year-olds in the third paragraph. The Australian government itself has pointed out the importance of young people and increasing workforce participation of young people?---Yes, but this is the problem. This is young people. You’re talking about a different category than I’m talking about.
PN333
Sorry?---I’m talking about schoolchildren and you’re talking about this broad category of young people. I fully agree that there’s an important discussion of young people and workforce participation, as I hoped I’d signalled. The problem is that schoolchildren are already socially included. They’ve got full-time responsibilities at their school. There’s no need to increase their workforce participation in order to meet a goal of social inclusion. I guess I was trying to say, by saying I regard this connection as strange, as drawing attention to the importance of this distinction between young people in general and schoolchildren who are full-time students.
PN334
So I understand, Dr Campbell. Your evidence is what it is but it’s the reference to a broader group of young persons rather than a notion that - - -?---Indeed, I was trying to underline that some of those groups of young people are very, very important for workforce participation especially, and it becomes a little bit tangentially relevant to the case, particularly those people who are not full-time students but who are employed part time. This is a group that has been identified as a problem from the point of view of policy and there’s a question of how do we kind of get them more hours of work, how do we resolve what’s a problem of either getting them into full-time study or getting them into part-time study or getting them into full-time employment? If we look at retail and we look at the 15 to 19-year-olds we can see a group there of 15 to 19-year-olds who are indeed employed part time but who are not full-time students, either at tertiary level or, indeed, at secondary school level. In a sense that’s a major kind of policy issue, I would have thought, for the government, not for the tribunal. What do we do with those people? How do we get them more hours? How do we address their problems? But for schoolchildren it’s not a problem from the point of view – in my reading of the literature and over the course of probably 10 years. I’ve never seen a specific discussion of schoolchildren and social inclusion through increased workforce participation. To me it’s a really, as I said, strange link.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR MAMMONE
PN335
At paragraph 35 of your statement, second-last sentence of that paragraph, “The current three-hour minimum daily engagement is one of the few regulatory restrictions that apply for casual employees but it does not appear to be a significant barrier to the employment of schoolchildren. It would only be a barrier in highly contingent circumstances.” The highly contingent circumstances you refer to, is that what you would regard as the restraint on a business that doesn’t operate past 5.30, for example? Is that what you’re referring to there?---Yes. I was trying to think it out and I think you have to allow some room for that kind of circumstance to be a factor, and that’s deliberately why I included that sentence.
PN336
Sorry, you said you would have to allow for that circumstance. You mean within that circumstance there should be some flexibility. Is that what you’re referring to?---No, I’m thinking, well, what about a case where, through some external force, businesses were obliged to close early and they couldn’t provide after-closing employment sufficiently long on a weekday, then it’s possible you could argue that that would be a barrier to employment of - - -
PN337
And that should be addressed?---No, because I think it’s far too small a number involved and the detrimental effects of reducing the minimum daily engagement far outweighs the advantages to that very small group.
PN338
Even if that’s on an individual basis?---Given that you’re talking about a situation of employers and vulnerable employees who might feel obliged to agree to something that they don’t necessarily want to prefer, then yes, I think that is the case. You can’t address that through the sort of process that seems to me is being contained in this application, that that process of agreement is not a sufficient guarantee that the wishes of the individual employee would be met.
PN339
Dr Campbell, I’m going to refer to evidence that you provided in the first application and refer directly to the transcript. I don’t’ have a copy to show you but I will read word for word the evidence that you gave that’s on the transcript. It’s in relation to where you have said at paragraph 35 about the current three-hour minimum daily engagement is one of the few regulatory restrictions. On 7 May in the first application at paragraph 1418 you gave evidence about casual employment generally in relation to questions that I put to you. Part of your response about casualisation – this is your evidence on transcript, “The issue in Australia, because I’ve tried to tackle them in a lot of my research, is the level of casualisation. I just think we’ve got a larger number of people, too large a number of people. There is undoubtedly a need for a small proportion of casual work, as indeed we find in most OECD countries in one form or another, but in my judgment – and I realise it’s not up to me to make this call – we’ve got too high a proportion of casuals.” Do you still believe that? When I say do you still believe that, your statement that we’ve got too high a proportion of casuals, is that still something that you believe?---Yes, but as I tried to say at the time, that was a bit of a digression from the issues under consideration. I certainly wouldn’t want any suggestion somehow that my attitude towards casual employment in general influences my statement in this case.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR MAMMONE
PN340
Following that, a question that I put is, “Would you support regulatory measures that would limit” – and before I could finish you proceeded to give an answer, I’m quoting from the transcript, “Well, I have in the past. My testimony which is quite easily available to the Metals casual case argued in support of a conversion mechanism for casual employees.” My question then at paragraph 1421, “So you support limitations on employers engaging casuals in that fashion?” Your answer is, “I support regulatory measures. Well, I have in the past, partly depending if we’re having this discussion on what the regulatory measure were because I think they have to be very careful in design, but I supported in the past measure to try and impede the consolidation of regular casual work, so-called permanent casual work.” Is that still your opinion?---Yes.
PN341
Paragraph 36, you state, “Insofar as there are barriers to employment of schoolchildren, they seem to be mainly on the supply side.” What about minimum engagement periods? I’ll let you answer that. What about minimum engagement periods?---As I suggested in the previous particular, I didn’t see that as a significant barrier to the employment of schoolchildren.
PN342
In preparing this statement why didn’t you consider a case study of the real life example of the Terang store whereby it was not a hypothetical but a real scenario? Why didn’t you consider a case study?---Could you perhaps explain a bit more?
PN343
Well, we had a situation at the Terang store with two individual employees at least that we know of that were affected by the effect of the minimum engagement clause in the modern award as compared to the previous award obligations. It was possible, was it not, for you to conduct a case study of that situation insofar as the effect of the minimum engagement clauses?---I couldn’t possibly do a case study of the Terang – I can’t imagine that the employer there would have a bar of talking to me, given - - -
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR MAMMONE
PN344
Have you done any case studies or have you done any research on the effect of minimum engagement periods?---It’s a question of practicality. I certainly thought about – when I realised that the issue was shifting more around schoolchildren and that the issue was going to come back before the Fair Work tribunal, I did think about what would be kind of research needs and what could we perhaps expect from the employers and their evidence, what could be expected from the union and their evidence and what would be required, I guess, from independent researchers such as myself? I did have a couple of ideas about what would be needed but the practicality of doing that kind of case study research or survey research which I think would be quite useful is pretty forbidding. It requires a lot of investment in time and money and I just didn’t have the time or money to do that sort of research. I must admit, I’d hoped that the employers would be able to provide that kind of case study of the operational needs of small businesses and how representative the Terang hardware store was. I had hoped that in their evidence that the employers – with their greater resources, the employer associations such as the NRA would be able to provide such a case study. I’m a bit disappointed that you haven’t, really.
PN345
Thank you for your answer, Dr Campbell. At paragraph 38 you say that, in your judgment, granting the application is more likely to have a negative dampening effect on the workforce participation of schoolchildren than a positive, uplifting effect. What do you mean by “negative dampening effect on workforce participation”?---Well, at the moment we’ve got – what was the figure that we were working from with Dewer? 36.7 per cent of schoolchildren aged 15 to 19 are at any one time employed. It seemed to me that if we looked at what are the barriers to employment of schoolchildren, and given their mainly on the supply side, that it’s more likely that granting this application is going to lower that percentage than raise it. Given that the barriers to the fact that there are only – well, at the moment there are 36.7 per cent. It’s steadily being going up since the mid-1980s but that still at any one point in time means that there’s something like 60 per cent of schoolchildren who are not employed. Now, why aren’t they employed? I’d suspect it’s probably because of – you know, they’ve decided to devote their attention to studies or their sport or their hobbies or their social lives, that they’re not interested, they don’t feel perhaps there’s enough of a lure to go out to work. That’s one supply side barrier. The other supply side barrier, I think, is transport. This is an enormous – as most of the evidence in independent suggests, transport is a major barrier because most of these kids haven’t got access to their own car, of course, or a licence. They’re reliant on public transport or they’re reliant on their parents generally in order to get to work.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR MAMMONE
PN346
THE VICE PRESIDENT: That may or may not be an issue, would it not?---Sorry?
PN347
It may or may not be an issue for a particular school student. If the place of work is either in the proximity of the school or in the proximity of the home, there might not be any additional transport costs, say, for travel at a different time?---Yes.
PN348
So there might be a whole class of school students where that applies?---As indeed of adults as well.
PN349
Yes?---There are adults who live next to their place of work.
PN350
We are talking about school students who do travel from school to home at the end of the day. So there is some existing travel of one sort or another and there is, I’d suggest, potentially a class where work is located in the proximity of one or the other?---I think there’s bound to be a group like that, yes. The issue, I guess, is the size of that group.
PN351
MR MAMMONE: At paragraph 39, Dr Campbell, you refer to the House of Representatives committee report and you say, “As well as money, school students also speak of other factors such as gaining experience, developing independence and a sense of personal autonomy. Also important is the social element and the opportunity to make new friends.” At paragraph 41, also from that report, you’ve provided a quote from that report. You say, “According to the House of Representatives report, there is a general consensus that combining school and work has many positive features. It can enhance a student’s confidence and self-esteem, contribute to their financial wellbeing, facilitate the development of the social networks, allow students to gain useful knowledge and independence and exercise greater responsibility and self-reliance, instill a work ethic and attitude, enable students to develop work and organisational skills, including time management skills.” Apart from the income that’s received for work, is there not a range of non-monetary benefits involved in work?---Yes.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR MAMMONE
PN352
Whilst they’re non-monetary, you’d accept that it has value?---Yes.
PN353
When we talk about school students and work, it’s not just the income that they receive that’s important. It’s also those non-monetary benefits?---Yes.
PN354
When you say at paragraph 50 of your statement, “This application threatens the interests of schoolchildren,” what interests are you referring to there?---I think their interests in having a shift that is sufficiently long in order to provide them with – compensate for the costs of travel and preparation and which gives them an adequate sum of money to meet their admittedly modest needs. I think their interested in combining school and paid work. I think reducing the minimum daily engagement may very well have a bad effect on the interests of schoolchildren.
PN355
In the previous paragraphs that I referred you to in terms of the non-monetary benefits, would you say that those interests are threatened if a school student cannot obtain work as a result of the existing minimum engagement period?---If they cannot – I’m sorry?
PN356
If, as a result of the existing minimum engagement clause in the modern award, an employer does not offer shifts to an employee, effectively disenfranchising them of further employment opportunities, would you say that those interests are threatened, monetary and non-monetary interests are threatened in that regard?---Is this a hypothetical case?
PN357
Well, let’s take a real one. Let’s take the two kids in Terang that I referred to earlier in the first application who effectively lost shifts, lost work opportunities. You say here this application threatens the interests of schoolchildren. Do you not equally say that the interests of those two individuals were also threatened?---As I said, I’d like to look more carefully at that particular case before I make any conclusions about the interests of those two schoolchildren.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR MAMMONE
PN358
When you say in that statement, paragraph 50 in the second sentence, “Schoolchildren need the protection of an adequate minimum daily engagement,” when you say “protection”, again, are you talking about the income aspect? Is that what you refer to as protection?---No. I referred to both working time security and income security. So both time and money is safeguarded through an adequate minimum daily engagement.
PN359
When you refer to time, obviously the longer you work, the more you get. Are you saying that a longer period of time working in and of itself is important, not only the money they receive?---Well, it’s important as well for some of those non-monetary advantages of work. A longer engagement is better than a shorter engagement in those respects as well. But what I’m mainly thinking about is that example I gave in paragraphs 61 to 62, or mainly in 61 where I’m saying that if students feel obliged to accept a shorter minimum daily engagement, then in order to maintain the income over the period of the week they’ll be obliged to accept a number of shifts spanning a number of different evenings rather than a shorter number of evenings. So shorter daily engagements imply, to my mind, if you’re going to maintain the income then more disruption to school work and your interests are sacrificed in that sense.
PN360
The third sentence of paragraph 50, “It does not constitute a satisfactory safeguard for any employee” – safeguard again, are you using exchangeably the words “protection” and “safeguard” or does “safeguard refer to something else?---I think I am, yes.
PN361
And 1.5 hours is not adequate, you say. So have you come up with a figure that you think is adequate?---No, I don’t see that as my responsibility but I think perhaps you asked the same question in the previous hearing and I think I suggested that three to four hours seemed to me reasonable, but perhaps if I looked at the transcript – I’d have to see exactly how I replied to that question.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR MAMMONE
PN362
What about a maximum? Should there be a maximum in terms of the amount of hours worked?---For schoolchildren?
PN363
Yes?---Yes. I wouldn’t be in favour of overly long shifts, especially on a weekday. I think you could get away with normal shifts of seven to eight hours on a weekend but I wouldn’t be in favour of any kind of long weekly hours for schoolchildren. I’m fully behind that mainstream consensus opinion that we don’t want overly long hours of paid work for schoolchildren, that it can interfere with study.
PN364
So what do you consider long then?---Well, I think the mainstream opinion, which I’m happy to go along with, is that anything over 15 hours per week should give perhaps a red light, although I do note that many people argue that the consequences of those overly long hours, which you can see in research in terms of increased likelihood of drop-out rates, the causal effect might be vice versa, that kids have already decided to drop out and have picked up as many hours that they could and they’re working long hours because they’ve already decided to drop out rather than they’re dropping out as a result of those long hours. Certainly I think full-time schoolchildren should not be working more than – in my opinion I’d even set – if I was talking to my daughter I’d say I don’t want her working more than 10 hours a week.
PN365
One last question, Dr Campbell. Considering two options, option A being a shorter shift of one and a half hours after work and option B being no employment if the current minimum engagement period stands, do you consider that can be traded - - -?---I don’t set the premise of that trade-off. I don’t think the issue here is employment for schoolchildren. I haven’t seen any evidence that the employment of schoolchildren will be affected by a three-hour minimum.
Thank you, Dr Campbell.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR MAMMONE
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR O'GRADY [3.54PM]
PN367
MR O'GRADY: Dr Campbell, you’ll be aware of Dr Robin Price who’s a senior lecturer at Queensland University?---Yes.
PN368
And you’ll be aware also that she has been called to give evidence in this matter?---Yes.
PN369
You seem to be reluctant to accept a connection between social inclusion and increased workforce participation by school students. That’s a fair assessment of your evidence at paragraphs 31 to 33?---I’m not quite sure. You seem to phrase that in a way that I don’t quite recognise.
PN370
Well, let me take you to paragraph 31, the first sentence. You identify a central rationale, if you like, of this application being the pursuit of an objective, being the promotion of social inclusion through increased workforce participation. If you then go over to paragraph 33 – well, first of all, in the first sentence of 32 you accept that increased workforce participation is a worthwhile goal. Then going to the first sentence in 33 you say that secondary schoolchildren are not normally included in Australian discussions of the need to increase workforce participation. Am I right in saying that you reluctant to accept that the increased participation in the workforce by secondary school students will promote their social inclusion?---I’m saying that that policy goal is not relevant to schoolchildren.
PN371
No, because it’s your view that they get their social inclusion from their school. They don’t get it through work?---Yes, but they can get a little bit of additional social inclusion, perhaps – no, I won’t say that. No, they’re fully socially included because they’re full-time school students.
PN372
To be fair to you, Dr Campbell, I should tell you that Dr Price makes the connection that you’re not prepared to make. In her statement Dr Price says, at 39(b), “Allowing school students to work shorter hours may increase their social inclusion through increased workforce participation”?---Well, in that case I think she’s – I’m sticking to my judgment. I’m not surprised that there should be at least some points of difference between two independent experts. You’d feel a bit uncomfortable if you felt that there was perfect agreement between two. So I’m quite happy to accept that she’s got a different opinion to me.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR O'GRADY
PN373
I’m not drawing this to your attention, Dr Campbell, just to reveal the fact of the difference. I’m drawing it to your attention to put to you that it’s something on which reasonable minds might differ?---Could you perhaps read her statement again?
PN374
Certainly.
PN375
MR FRIEND: Perhaps he could be shown the statement?---Because I haven’t - - -
PN376
MR O’GRADY: I’m happy for the witness to be shown the statement and not for one moment was I seeking to catch him out. I’m not sure that I have a spare copy, though, sorry, your Honour.
PN377
MR DOWLING: I’m happy to hand up mine if it assists as long as I get it back.
PN378
MR O’GRADY: The paragraph number, Dr Campbell, is paragraph 39 on page 13 and this is a summary paragraph after Dr Price refers to various reports, et cetera. What I was identifying there was the first sentence of paragraph 39, subparagraph (b)?---You’ll notice that she says “may”. “Allowing school students to work shorter hours may increase their social inclusion from increased workforce participation. However, schoolchildren workforce participation rates in Australia are already very high by world standards.” It suggests to me that she doesn’t regard the first part of the statement as all that important and perhaps doesn’t even – it doesn’t look to me like a considered – I don’t see that as necessarily in opposition to what I’ve got to say.
PN379
No. The point that I put to you though, Dr Campbell, is that she’s prepared to make a connection that you are not prepared to make. That is, increased workforce participation promotes social inclusion?---For schoolchildren?
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR O'GRADY
PN380
For schoolchildren?---Yes, it looks like it.
PN381
If I could hand to Dr Campbell a copy of the House of Representatives Standing Committee report which I think everyone house. I only wish to take Dr Campbell to two paragraphs which I have marked. The two paragraphs, your Honour, are 3.58 and 4.46.
PN382
Perhaps, Dr Campbell, if I could invite you to read the first tabbed paragraph which is 3.58?---3.58?
PN383
Yes?---“In the main - - -”
PN384
I don’t invite you to read it out loud?---Sorry.
PN385
Read it from the point of view of consuming it, sorry, Dr Campbell?---Okay.
PN386
I’m focusing on paragraph 3.58 at the moment?---Yes, I’ve read that.
PN387
Do you accept as a proposition that it is a valid proposition that part-time work for students is a very positive experience for the reasons that are there set out at paragraph 3.58?---Yes.
PN388
Those concepts are the very concepts that one would consider to make up social inclusion, are they not?---Which concepts are those?
PN389
The concepts that are there referred to in paragraph 3.58?---You’ll have to list the concepts, I think, thanks.
PN390
Well, gaining confidence from interacting with adults in the workplace, a range of employability skills which hold them in good stead for future employment. Those are matters that would be part of the concept of social inclusion, are they not?---I’m not sure. I’d have to check.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR O'GRADY
PN391
What would you check?---Well, what the definitions of social inclusion are the sort of associated values that are seen in contemporary policy statements.
PN392
Very well. If I could now take you to paragraph 4.46 of the House of Representatives Standing Committee report, again I invite you to read that paragraph for the purposes of consuming what it says?---Yes, I’ve finished it.
PN393
You would accept the voracity of the proposition that is set out in that paragraph?---Yes.
PN394
You know of course I’m going to put exactly the same question to you and I suspect your answer is the same. Those are matters that of course would go to make up the concept or at least would be included in the concept of social inclusion, are they not?---I’m not sure. I mean, I’d have to look – I mean, to some extent we’re wrestling over things that we probably agree on. I think students’ involvement in paid work is a good thing. I would, for example, encourage my daughter to get a part-time job at some point during her secondary school education. I think as long as the hours aren’t too long and as long as the quality of the work is all right, there’s not too many dangers, just as the House of Representatives report suggests, then that will be a positive experience for my daughter.
PN395
It’s a positive experience that is beyond the four walls of the experience she has at school?---No, I’m not quite sure that it will add to her social inclusion. This is the issue, though.
PN396
Well, it depends of course on - - -?---I regard her as fully socially included, irrespective of the fact that she’s not currently part-time employed.
PN397
You say that from the point of view that she’s fully socially included in her educational environment?---Yes, and she’s on a career path that’s likely to include part-time work at some point in her secondary school career, would include part-time work when she’s a tertiary student. There’s no problem there about her eventually gaining employability skills to go with her chosen lifelong career. I don’t see any problem. She’s fully socially included, a rich social life, rich sporting life. She’ll have a bit of experience of work. It’s all relatively hunky dory for a girl like that in that particular situation, although I can think there are very important problems associated with early school-leavers and people who are not full-time students.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR O'GRADY
PN398
It is the case, though, that one of the reasons you are in favour of your daughter participating in part-time employment is that it gives rise to a greater prospect of her ready participation in the workforce post her school years?---I’m not sure. I don’t think so.
PN399
It better prepares her for working life?---Yes, I think part-time work during the period that you’re a student does prepare you better for full-time working life.
PN400
Therefore it better prepares her for social inclusion through participation in the workforce after her school life?---That’s saying that it prepares her for social inclusion rather than it does socially include her. That’s I guess probably where we’re maybe wrestling over nuances. I don’t think that’s the key to her being socially included - - -
PN401
You attach a - - -?---Either now or in the future.
PN402
I’m sorry, I talked over you. You might want to repeat the last proposition?---I don’t think it’s the key to her being socially included, either now as a full-time student or in the future as a full-time employee.
PN403
You attach a temporal time frame for the concept of social inclusion to mean social inclusion now rather than social inclusion through increased participation in the workforce in the future, don’t you?---I’m sorry, I don’t quite understand.
PN404
Do you accept as a proposition that one’s participation in the workforce – put to one side school life for the moment. Approach it from the point of view of adult life. Participation in the workforce promotes social inclusion, does it not?---Yes.
PN405
Yes. Now, if one is more able, more prepared, more ready to participate in the workforce by reason of their participation in casual employment during their school life, does that not promote social inclusion after their school life?---I think it’s too indirect to be given a label as promoting social inclusion. I think it’s a sort of very indirect, incremental, small benefit, at least for many students.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR O'GRADY
PN406
It’s one that Dr Price is prepared to make, though?---Yes.
PN407
Thank you. No further questions, your Honour.
PN408
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Dr Campbell, just on that point, I think you referred at paragraph 60 of your most recent statement to the Brotherhood of St Lawrence submission regarding the benefits of employment. That’s quoted at paragraph 42 of the Victorian submission. Do you remember that quotation?---I’m sorry?
PN409
Do you remember that quotation from the Brotherhood of St Lawrence?---Yes.
PN410
That submission says that students in rural areas from low socioeconomic status communities or from refugee or migrant backgrounds may be less able to access part-time jobs. “For those students who would benefit from part-time work whilst studying full time who lack access to such opportunities, processes are required through community, businesses and schools partnerships to enable the development of safe, meaningful employment opportunities that benefit young people.” Do you acknowledge that there may be some different dimensions to this notion of social inclusion depending on which group of people we’re talking about, whether it’s your daughter or someone within those particular groups?---Certainly I’ve seen some of those statements that it tends to be wealthier – or school students from wealthier middle-class suburbs that have more access to part-time jobs. I’m certainly a little bit concerned about that. I think that seems to me a little bit of a kind of alarm that – why is it that children from recently migrated communities, why is that they haven’t got the same sort of access and what could be do to perhaps provide them with a fair share of opportunities for part-time jobs? So far as I can tell, I don’t think the Brotherhood is right about the rural areas for what I’ve said in my statement although it’s plausible. I’d have to think it out but I still wouldn’t say that just because a recently arrived immigrant is a full-time student and doesn’t have a part-time job that therefore they’re less socially included than someone who does have a part-time job. In fact, this has been a little bit of an issue for us because my wife and myself are mentors for a young Sudanese girl who’s desperate to get a part-time job to complement her studies and we’ve been attending a number of job interviews. I haven’t, I must admit; my wife has. So I do want her to have equal access to the right to work at Hungry Jack’s or McDonald’s or wherever she chooses to work. But I don’t see her as less socially included, you know. It’s important for her because she didn’t have adequate schooling for the first 10 years of her life that she is a full-time student and remains a full-time student. That’s the key to her social inclusion, in my view.
**** IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL XXN MR O'GRADY
PN411
You don’t see social inclusion as a matter of degree. You’re either included or not, are you, and you can be included from education participation?---It has got to be a matter of degree, I would have thought.
PN412
Yes, thank you.
PN413
MR FRIEND: No re-examination, your Honour.
PN414
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you for your evidence, Dr Campbell. You’re excused.
PN415
MR FRIEND: Your Honour, Mr Allen was to be available at 4.30. I’ve received a note that he may be available after 4 o’clock but we’d need to call him to find out. I don’t know if your Honour wishes to adjourn for a few minutes.
PN416
THE VICE PRESIDENT: We’ll adjourn now and we’ll reconvene either at 4.30 or when Mr Allen is on the phone.
PN417
MR FRIEND: Thank you, your Honour.
<ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [4.13PM]
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs
EXHIBIT #F1 OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS OF SDA PN15
EXHIBIT #F2 CHAIN OF CORRESPONDENCE PN19
TERRIE CARRINGTON, SWORN PN33
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND PN33
EXHIBIT #F3 STATEMENT OF TERRIE CARRINGTON PN39
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DUFF PN39
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND PN84
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN87
LUKE GEORGE SWETMAN, AFFIRMED PN87
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DOWLING PN87
EXHIBIT #F4 STATEMENT OF LUKE SWETMAN PN102
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DUFF PN104
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN116
GEORGIA RUBY MUNRO, SWORN PN119
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DOWLING PN119
EXHIBIT #F5 STATEMENT OF GEORGIA MUNRO PN128
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DUFF PN130
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN160
CHRISTOPHER CARANZA, SWORN PN174
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DOWLING PN174
EXHIBIT #F6 STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER CARANZA PN182
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DUFF PN184
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DOWLING PN200
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN203
IAIN GRAHAM CAMPBELL, AFFIRMED PN205
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND PN205
EXHIBIT #F7 STATEMENT OF IAIN CAMPBELL PN216
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DUFF PN216
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAMMONE PN294
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR O'GRADY PN366