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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Fair Work Act 2009 47499-1
VICE PRESIDENT WATSON
AM2010/226
s.158 - Application to vary or revoke a modern award
Application by National Retail Association Limited
(AM2010/226)
General Retail Industry Award 2010
(ODN AM2008/10)
[MA000004 Print PR985114]]
Melbourne
1.33PM, THURSDAY, 28 APRIL 2011
Continued from 27/04/2011
PN418
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Friend.
PN419
MR W. FRIEND: Thank you, your Honour. I call Louise Buesnell who’s available by videolink from Sydney, your Honour.
PN420
THE ASSOCIATE: Can you please state your full name and address.
PN421
MS BUESNELL: Louise May Buesnell, (address supplied).
<LOUISE MAY BUESNELL, SWORN [1.33PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND [1.35PM]
MR FRIEND: Ms Buesnell, again could you please state your full name?
---Louise May Buesnell.
PN423
And your address again?---(address supplied).
PN424
And you’re employed as an organiser for the Shop Distributive and Allied Employees Association?---Yes, I am.
PN425
You’ve prepared a statement in this matter of three pages and nine paragraphs. Is that right?---That’s correct.
PN426
Are the contents of that statement true and correct?---Yes, it is.
PN427
I tender that, if your Honour pleases.
PN428
THE VICE PRESIDENT: That statement will be exhibit F8.
EXHIBIT #F8 STATEMENT OF LOUISE MAY BUESNELL
MR FRIEND: If you could wait there, please, Ms Buesnell.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DUFF [1.36PM]
MS DUFF: Good afternoon, Ms Buesnell. I just have a few questions about your statement. At paragraph 4 of your statement you refer to 20 students that you spoke to. Are you able to tell us how you selected this group and the age of each student who was surveyed?---Yes, I relied upon a distribution of the survey throughout the workplace and it was handed out through myself and delegates in the store.
PN431
So how did you determine those students who were asked to complete the survey? Was it just given to all casual students or all casual secondary students?---Yes, casual secondary students.
**** LOUISE MAY BUESNELL XN MR FRIEND
PN432
So in paragraphs 8 and 9 of your statement you specifically refer to secondary students. This isn’t indicating that some of the personal surveyed were secondary students?---They were secondary students.
PN433
So each of the 20 were in fact secondary students rather than tertiary level?---Yes, they were secondary students.
PN434
Are you able to tell us anything about the year of schooling that each of the surveyed participants was in?---It varied from year 10 through to year 12.
PN435
So aside from distribution the written survey and asking them to complete it, did you have any discussions with any of the 20 students?---Yes, I did. I followed through on a couple of those statements and spoke directly with the employees.
PN436
When you were handing out the survey for completion, what preamble or explanation did you provide to the students?---I just explained that the minimum shift currently was three hours and what would their thoughts be on anything less than that.
PN437
So every single one of the 20 students that you surveyed said or wrote in clear and unambiguous language that it was pointless and a waste of time to work shifts of less than three hours. Is that what each of them said in those exact words?---A large majority did, yes.
PN438
Can you tell us what the minority said?---Well, they expressed that they didn’t like to do any less than three hours for various reasons, it not being financially viable as well.
PN439
So can you tell us what was the exact question you asked the students when discussing the length of their preferred shift?---I asked what their view would be on a shorter shift of less than three hours.
**** LOUISE MAY BUESNELL XXN MS DUFF
PN440
That is of less than three hours not of 1.5 hours or two hours specifically?---No, of less than three hours.
PN441
What other questions were contained in the survey?---The questions that are in the statement.
PN442
So that there were no additional questions?---No.
PN443
At paragraph 6 of your statement you refer to out-of-town students. Are you able to provide an example of an out-of-town student that was able to work a four-hour shift after school?---Could you repeat that question?
PN444
At paragraph 6 you refer to out-of-town students. I was wondering if you could provide an example of an out-of-town student who was able to work a shift after school of four hours?---Yes, there are various small villages surrounding Orange with a kilometre - estimate probably 40, 50 kilometres. There’s certain students that rather than travel home after school would remain in town after school, get changed and then go down to complete their shift of anywhere between three and four hours.
PN445
So this was obviously in circumstances where their employer had a closing time that was somewhat later than 6 pm on a school day?---Yes.
PN446
You say in paragraph 5 of your statement that students want three or four-hour shifts during the week and longer shifts on the weekend. That’s correct?---Yes, that’s correct.
PN447
Are you aware of the total hours per week that each of the students you surveyed actually works?---They vary from eight to 20 hours per week.
PN448
Between eight and 20. You go on to say at paragraph 7 that school students don’t get enough hours. Are you aware of how many hours a week each of these casual school students you surveyed wants?---Yes, it varied. It varied according to their availabilities, their commitments outside of school hours and it varied from those shifts I just explained, eight to 20 hours per week.
**** LOUISE MAY BUESNELL XXN MS DUFF
PN449
Was there a discernible pattern amongst those students who wanted more hours? If they were, for example, in a younger level of secondary school did they want less or more hours? If they were in the upper echelons doing 11 or 12 did they want more or less?---It varied. Obviously commitments they had in their life would determine the need of what hours they could fit into their schedule. Obviously year 11 and 12 students had more commitments studywise so their hours would obviously vary according to exams and study, et cetera.
PN450
So you would agree that the number of hours that each student had a preference for is largely determined by their personal circumstances and what suits the other commitments they have in their lives?---Yes, and obviously travel arrangements. Being regional areas there’s not a lot of public transport so people have to rely on – or young people have to rely on parents to get them to and from work.
PN451
So taking into account individual preferences and how many hours in total they’d like to work and when they’d like to work, every student would have what they would conceive as a dream roster?---Pardon? Could you repeat that?
PN452
I said taking into account each student’s individual preferences and how many hours in total they wished to work and when they wished to work, every student would have an ideal or a dream roster that they would like to work if given the opportunity?---Yes, obviously all young people would like to earn a substantial amount of money in, you know, a reasonable shift length.
PN453
The ideal or the dream roster, it would vary depending on parental support, where they lived, their study commitments, their sporting commitments, other school commitments and if they’re dependent on a parent to provide transport or the public transport system. They would be factors that would determine the students’ preferences in terms of when and how much they were to work?---Yes, they’re all contributing factors, yes.
**** LOUISE MAY BUESNELL XXN MS DUFF
PN454
Would you also agree that the age of the student is relevant and so is their academic capacity? For example, a year 12 student who’s not studying for an OP or a tertiary entrance school might have a different preference to someone who was trying to gain a tertiary entrance?---The general feedback was most or all people that were interviewed would prefer to have a reasonable shift length considering the fact that the effort it takes to get to work and sometimes the transport arrangements. Anything less than three hours was not favourable.
PN455
Because of the particular region and the particular nature of the public transport available?---And also the money factor, that people – the young people considered that if they made the effort to get to work, they’d like to spend a lot more time at work and particular shift.
PN456
Would you agree that school students that are academically less inclined would have a greater disposition for work and more availability during the week and are likely to want more hours?---Sorry, could you repeat that? I can’t hear you.
PN457
Sorry, I’ll speak directly into the mike. Is that better?---That’s much better, thank you.
PN458
The question was would you agree that school students that are academically less inclined are likely to have a greater disposition for work, more availability during the week, and work more hours?---Not necessarily, no.
PN459
Not necessarily?---No.
PN460
Of the group of 20 students you surveyed, how many would you say fit into that category being academically less inclined and likely to have a greater disposition for working longer hours?---Very few. Most of the students that I interviewed were of average to quite intelligent with inspiration academically and career-wise.
**** LOUISE MAY BUESNELL XXN MS DUFF
PN461
Would you accept that the important thing when we’re talking about hours and the length of shifts is to respect the preferences of the individual?---Absolutely.
PN462
Absolutely? Do you also accept that employment in retail plays a very important part in helping secondary school students’ transition from school to work?---Yes.
PN463
Would you agree that in many cases retail employees don’t necessarily get the roster that they would ideally like?---Yes.
PN464
I’ll go back to public transport for a moment. In paragraph 7 you talk about the public transport issue. Did each of the 20 students who you surveyed rely on public transport to get to and from school to work and from work to home?---It varied. Some would rely on public transport, some were close by where they could walk from the school to the workplace.
PN465
Are you aware of when the public transport system stops running in the town and its surrounds?---I believe it’s around 5 o’clock in the afternoon.
PN466
So it would be reasonable to assume that those students working after 5 pm would be reliant on their own drivers’ licences or on parents for transport?---Yes.
PN467
Thank you, Ms Buesnell, I have no further questions, your Honour.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAMMONE [1.48PM]
MR MAMMONE: Ms Buesnell, can you hear me fine?---Yes.
PN469
Just a few questions, Ms Buesnell. In your statement at paragraph 4 you talk about for the purposes of this proceeding you spoke to around 20 students and asked them the following questions. As I understand it in response to questions from Ms Duff that there was a survey conducted. Was that a written survey that was distributed and the answers provided in written format?---Yes, but I did follow up through various of those surveys and spoke one on one with some secondary students.
**** LOUISE MAY BUESNELL XXN MS DUFF
PN470
Was there any reason why that survey, the questions or a summary of the results, were not attached to your statement or referred to – is there any reason why that was the case?---I just collated the data that I got from various statements and put it into – sorry, I collected the data and put it into my statement based on the responses from the surveys and the conversations I held with employees.
PN471
Is it possible for the original survey and the written responses that were collated to be provided to the tribunal?---Yes, that’s possible.
PN472
In relation to the survey, the 20 students, could you tell the tribunal how many businesses those employees worked for or how many businesses we’re talking about in total?---Looking at large retailers.
PN473
So how many retail firms?---Four.
PN474
Those retailers, are we talking about a large retailer, something like Coles? Are we talking about independent grocers - what?---Yes, large retailers – Coles, Woolworths, Big W, in various towns.
PN475
Those four retailers, during the weekdays what are their trading hours?---They vary from 7 am through to 10 pm.
PN476
And do you know what industrial instruments apply to these employees?
---Enterprise agreement, bargaining agreement.
PN477
Those are negotiated with the union?---Yes, the SDA.
PN478
And I take it the current clauses in those agreements are a three-hour minimum?
---Yes, it is.
**** LOUISE MAY BUESNELL XXN MR MAMMONE
PN479
If I could put a question to you in your experiences as an organiser, do you believe it’s reasonable where a business operates during the weekday and operates until 5 pm to 6 pm and a secondary student is only available to work after school hours during the weekday, they should be able to work for less than three hours in those circumstances?---In my experience no. I think it sets a precedent. The minimum shift has been reduced in time from a four-hour to a three-hour shift and I think if individuals do practise working less than three hours that even that shift potentially is at risk to be reduced again.
PN480
So anything less than three hours, in your view, in those circumstances is not reasonable because of a precedent?---No.
PN481
Thank you. That’s all, thank you, your Honour.
PN482
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr O’Grady.
PN483
MR O’GRADY: I have not questions at this point, thank you, your Honour.
PN484
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Friend.
PN485
MR FRIEND: No re-examination. May the witness be excused, your Honour.
PN486
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you for your evidence, Ms Buesnell. You’re excused from further attendance?---Thank you.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [1.53PM]
MR FRIEND: I hesitate to say this, your Honour, but I am led to believe that Mr Allen will be by his mobile phone at 2 o’clock. We were told this just a few minutes ago, so rather than start Dr Price for a couple of minutes, would it be appropriate to get him on the phone as soon as we can and then bring your Honour in?
**** LOUISE MAY BUESNELL XXN MR MAMMONE
PN488
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, there’s still a desire to cross-examine Mr Allen?
PN489
MS DUFF: Yes, your Honour.
PN490
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Very well, we’ll adjourn till 2 o’clock and we’ll get Mr Allen on the phone if possible and reconvene then.
<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [1.54PM]
<RESUMED [2.01PM]
MR FRIEND: Your Honour, I call Tyson Allen.
THE ASSOCIATE: Could you please state your full name and address?
MR ALLEN: Tyson James Allen, (address supplied).
<TYSON JAMES ALLEN, AFFIRMED [2.02PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND [2.02PM]
MR FRIEND: Mr Allen, it’s Warren Friend again. Could you state your full name, please?---Tyson James Allen.
PN492
And your address?---(address supplied).
PN493
You are a university student at the moment?---Yes.
PN494
You prepared a statement in this matter of three pages and 10 paragraphs. Is that right?---Yes.
PN495
Are the contents of that true and correct?---Yes, they are.
PN496
Thank you. Your Honour, I have a copy that’s been executed of that document. I’ll perhaps tender that one for the tribunal?---Sorry?
PN497
It’s all right, Mr Allen. If you could wait there, please, Ms Duff will ask you some questions now?---Okay.
**** TYSON JAMES ALLEN XN MR FRIEND
PN498
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I’ll mark the statement of Mr Allen exhibit F9.
EXHIBIT #F9 STATEMENT OF TYSON JAMES ALLEN
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DUFF [2.03PM]
MS DUFF: Hello, Mr Allen, Jessica Duff from the NRA again. I have a few questions about your statement?---Okay.
PN500
When you were a school student, Mr Allen, did you ever work after school on school days?---Not after school, no.
PN501
And what were the factors that led you to decide that it wasn’t your preference to work after school on school days?---Well, I went to school in Newcastle which was an hour away from where I lived so I didn’t get home till about 5 o’clock or 6 o’clock. The traffic was really bad so it was just not really an option for me. That was too late.
PN502
So you would agree that there are many factors that would influence a student’s decision as to when they prefer to work - study, sport, parental support, travel times?---Yes, that’s right.
PN503
Would you agree that for some school students travel time mightn’t be a factor if, for example, they live near their place of work or it’s very convenient for a parent or someone else to transport them to and from work?---If they live close, yes.
PN504
Would you agree that, depending on their own personal circumstances, some students might find it convenient or appropriate to work shifts shorter than three hours?---Sorry, just repeat that for me, sorry.
PN505
Would you agree that, depending on their own personal circumstances, some students, not yourself, might find it convenient or appropriate to work a shift of less than three hours?---Some might. I’m not sure.
**** TYSON JAMES ALLEN XXN MS DUFF
PN506
Are you aware, Mr Allen, that some enterprise agreements provide for student casuals to work shorter shifts of two hours or 1.5 hours?---No, I didn’t know about that.
PN507
Would you agree that the existence of those types of clauses would suggest that there is a need and it might be appropriate in circumstances - - -
PN508
MR FRIEND: It’s not really a matter for this witness, your Honour?---Did you say distance?
PN509
Could you just hold on, Mr Allen.
PN510
MS DUFF: I’ll ask another question, your Honour.
PN511
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN512
MS DUFF: At paragraph 9 of your statement, Mr Allen, you state that a shorter shift is not worth the money you earnt to travel to work?---Not for me.
PN513
Not for you. Would you agree that where there was no extra expense involved in terms of travel, such as where a student has a yearly public transport pass or works close to home or school, that a shorter shift might suit that particular student in their individual circumstances?---If they had a public transport pass did you say?
PN514
Yes?---If they don’t mind catching the public transport.
PN515
Yes, but if there is no additional cost involved, then the student might be happy to work a short shift?---Yes, if they don’t mind working late.
PN516
In some towns the only employment opportunity might be to work in a store that closes at 5.30 or 6 pm on Monday to Friday. Would you agree in this instance that a student might prefer to take up this opportunity and work a shift of less than three hours?---Sorry, if the store closes early?
**** TYSON JAMES ALLEN XXN MS DUFF
PN517
Correct?---May be for some people.
PN518
Mr Allen, your statement reveals that you have quite a strong view on the subject of minimum engagement periods?---Right.
PN519
When you formulated your view on the subject did you consider that in some regional settings where people live some distance from the town that a parent or both parents might work in that town and might finish work at 5.00 or 5.30 and that, in those sorts of circumstances, it might be very convenient for a student to work after school for one and a half or two hours?---Well, I didn’t think of that because that wasn’t my situation and that’s just my story, but I don’t know.
PN520
Do you agree, Mr Allen, that it might be reasonable for a student to work up to say six hours a week?---Sorry, a student could work up to six hours a week?
PN521
Would that be reasonable in your opinion?---Yes, probably.
PN522
Would you acknowledge that in order to work a total of six hours a week some students might prefer to work just the one six-hour shift whilst others might prefer to work three two-hour shifts?---I suppose each to their own, yes.
PN523
Thank you, Mr Allen. I have no further questions of this witness, your Honour.
PN524
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Mammone or Mr O’Grady – no? Re-examination.
PN525
MR FRIEND: No re-examination, your Honour. Might Mr Allen be excused?
PN526
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you for your evidence, Mr Allen. You may return to your other activities?---Okay, thanks.
**** TYSON JAMES ALLEN XXN MS DUFF
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.08PM]
THE ASSOCIATE: Could you state your full name and address.
PN527
DR PRICE: Robin Anne Price, (address supplied).
<ROBIN ANNE PRICE, AFFIRMED [2.08PM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND [2.10PM]
MR FRIEND: Dr Price, could you state again, please, your full name?---Robin Anne Price.
PN529
And your address?---(address supplied).
PN530
You’re currently employed as a senior lecturer at QUT, the Queensland University of Technology. Is that right?---I am.
PN531
And for the purposes of this case have you prepared a statement of some 13 pages and one attachment?---Yes, I have.
PN532
And are the contents of that statement true and they give a reflection of your opinion?---Yes.
PN533
Yes, thank you. Can I tender that, please, your Honour.
PN534
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I’ll mark the statement of Dr Robin Price exhibit F10.
EXHIBIT #F10 STATEMENT OF DR ROBIN ANNE PRICE
MR FRIEND: Dr Price, if you could wait there, please.
**** ROBIN ANNE PRICE XN MR FRIEND
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DUFF [2.10PM]
MS DUFF: At paragraph 4 of your statement you indicated that your PhD research focused on a national food retail firm. Are you able to tell us the name of that firm?---No, I’m not because one of the rationale for getting research ethics clearance is that we won’t disclose the names of the parties that we speak to unless they give us permission to do so and this organisation didn’t.
PN537
Okay. Can you tell me if it was a major national food retail firm?---Yes, anyone who has some experience with the industry would probably be able to guess which one it was.
PN538
Are you familiar with the industrial instrument that regulates the conditions of the employment within retail?---The Modern Retail Award.
PN539
The Modern Retail Award. There was no specific enterprise agreement in place?
---For that organisation?
PN540
Correct?---That organisation had an enterprise agreement.
PN541
Are you familiar with the conditions of employment that are set out in that enterprise agreement?---Recently so.
PN542
Are you familiar with any specific provision that that agreement had in relation to the engagement of student casuals?---It didn’t actually have any other than youth rates in general and a three-hour minimum.
PN543
If I could take you to paragraphs 5 and 13 of your statement, in those paragraphs you refer to the Australian Research Council?---Yes.
PN544
Could you tell us, please, what this council is and where it derives its funding from?---It’s a federal government funded competitive grant process. So you have to apply, provide a grant application and sometimes you get lucky. The success rate is about 20 per cent.
**** ROBIN ANNE PRICE XXN MS DUFF
PN545
So the funding for your research project was provided by the government. There was no other organisations affiliated or provided funding?---No, there were other organisations – CathEd, the Catholic education body that looks after Brisbane, Education Queensland, the Young Workers Advisory Service and I think the QCU gave us some money too. We approached Commerce Queensland and didn’t have any luck.
PN546
Thank you, Dr Price. At subparagraphs 5(d) and 13(d) you refer to having conducted interviews with union officials?---Yes.
PN547
Could you tell us, please, which union those officials were affiliated with?---We looked across the board at the industries in which young people are most likely to be employed and the type of jobs that young people were most likely to do and we selected our sample based on where the youth density was higher.
PN548
And what were those industries that you identified as being particularly high in those - - -?---Retail, hospitality, service sector, there were restaurants, and then we included some of the education-type unions and some of the ones that pick up graduates from universities.
PN549
Your research referred to in paragraphs 5 and 13 required you to interact with 1108 school students, 15 teachers - - -?---I’m sorry, which paragraph are you at?
PN550
Five and 13?---Yes.
PN551
Where you set out the research that was actually started?---Okay.
PN552
So throughout that research you interacted with 1108 school students, 15 teachers, 16 union officials, five youth organisations and three Queensland Labor Government representatives. If my addition is correct that’s a total of some 1147 interactions with individuals who could be expected to express views that were concerned with the personal circumstances of employees?---I’m sorry, I don’t understand your question.
**** ROBIN ANNE PRICE XXN MS DUFF
PN553
The question is that all those 1147 interactions, those individuals, could have been expected to express views that you then used in your research that were concerned with the personal circumstances of employees. Is that correct?---Yes.
PN554
In the same research project you interacted with five major employers of youth and five employer associations, a total of 10 interactions with employer-related participants. Is that correct?---That’s correct.
PN555
So of the total interactions involved in the process, you have a total of 1147 with employee-related participants and 10 with employer-related participants. Is that an accurate summary?---I believe. I’ve never actually added up how many of the earlier ones but I believe you.
PN556
Thank you. In relation to the five major employers of youth and the five employer association representatives in youth-dominated industries, are you able to identify those employers and associations?---No, because they also signed – or we had to sign the confidentiality agreement that we wouldn’t disclose it.
PN557
Moving on to paragraph 11 of your statement, Dr Price, you refer to a publication entitled Managing Young Workers - The Privileged Generation?---Yes.
PN558
As part of this publication are you able to tell us how many student workers you spoke to and who those students were employed by?---The study was – it contained – well, it’s a chapter in a book and it contains two separate cases. In one case the case study was actually drawn from university students across a number of different universities and it was about their experiences of work, and the second case was drawn from my PhD where I think there was about 300-odd employees that I surveyed within the organisation and 50 per cent of the staff of the organisation were under 21.
**** ROBIN ANNE PRICE XXN MS DUFF
PN559
Sorry, what was that percentage?---Close to 50 per cent. It was slightly less. I don’t remember offhand.
PN560
So this organisation that was part of your research, this was the second of the case studies, the section of food retailing jobs that you refer to as being jobs with little or no training, little or no career development and low wages?---Yes.
PN561
Is that your general view of how food retailing jobs are characterised, that they’re jobs with little or no training and little or no career development?---In this organisation and for that cohort there is quite a bit of sort of certificate II in retail operations and certificate III. There’s quite a bit of training going on in the retail industry. It’s just that young people and casual employees in particular don’t usually have the opportunity to participate in it.
PN562
So you wouldn’t say that that is a general view that you hold that might perhaps hamper your ability to make objective assessments of the food retail sector?---I don’t understand the question. I mean, I’ve worked in the retail training role but I don’t quite get what you’re getting at.
PN563
You’ve said that the food retailing sector provides jobs with little or no training, little or no career development, low wages. Is that a view that you extend to employers in other sectors, such as tourism, restaurants, cafes, takeaway food, fast food?---In some cases yes and in some cases no. I mean, retailers are not all the same and nor is any other industry. There’s good and bad.
PN564
If I could take you to paragraph 12 of your statement, please, Dr Price, you refer in that paragraph to a study concerning employer’s perspectives on employing child workers after the introduction of the Queensland Child Employment Act. Are you able to tell us the names of those 13 individuals and their respective organisations who were surveyed for this study or are you prevented by the confidentiality agreement?---No, I’m prevented by the ethics requirements.
**** ROBIN ANNE PRICE XXN MS DUFF
PN565
At the end of that paragraph 12 you state that no employers surveyed mentioned minimum engagement periods as an issue when they were asked to describe difficulties associated with youth employment. You’re not able to tell me the specific employers who admitted to mention minimum engagement periods?
---No, I’m not, and I mean we interviewed employer associations as well and they didn’t mention it either.
PN566
Given your interest in minimum engagements, when you were conducting the interviews with those employers was there any reason you specifically didn’t canvass employers about the issue of minimum engagement periods for casuals?
---No, because better research protocol is to ask a more open question and allow the employer or the employer association to give you the issues that are important to them, and if we structured it in a fairly narrow way that would be perceived as being leading.
PN567
I understand. Are you able to offer – I understand that you can’t identify the organisations involved – but are you able to tell us anything about their hours of operation?---Of the organisations – the representatives we spoke to?
PN568
Correct?---Most of them, whatever they choose to open, you know. Queensland’s trading hours legislation is divided up into independent, exempt and non-exempt as far as the retail industry goes and it’s the non-exempt who are the bigger organisations and, when we targeted or when we phoned up the people we would speak to for the research, the logic says that – and if you look at the status there are a few very large retailers who employ a very high percentage of young people so they were obvious organisations to go and approach. And then because it’s not all that valid to go and approach small organisations, that’s why we went to speak to the employer associations who were more likely to be representative of the views of large numbers of smaller employers, which is why the sample was divided up like that.
**** ROBIN ANNE PRICE XXN MS DUFF
PN569
So have you ever had occasion in your research to have a look at industrial instruments in terms of their inclusion of provisions dealing with minimum engagements?---I have – well, not in relation to minimum periods of engagement, no, but I have looked at other aspects of industrial instruments.
PN570
So are you aware that many enterprise agreements contain provisions for minimums of less than three hours?---I am aware that some do.
PN571
Are you aware that the SDA has negotiated a number of enterprise agreements providing shorter minimums for student casuals?---I’m not aware of that, no.
PN572
Are you aware of the minimum engagement period in the Modern Hospitality Award and the Modern Restaurant Award?---No.
PN573
Of the employers who you surveyed who omitted to mention the minimum engagement periods as an impediment associated with youth employment, are you aware how many were covered by the General Retail Industry Award?---Actually most of the ones we interviewed have collective agreements.
PN574
So most would be covered by an industrial instrument which could provide for a minimum engagement period of less than three hours?---They could potentially, yes. I know the retail ones don’t.
PN575
If I could take you now to paragraph 21 of your statement, that paragraph refers to a paper entitled ‘Knowledge is not power but it’s a start’. In connection with that paper you say that you advocated that particular attempts be taken to provide young workers with details of their conditions of employment. When you were advocating that position, did you take into account or have regard to the fact that many employers give employees a letter of employment which summarises their conditions?---Well, given the amounts of knowledge that young people have about what they’re entitled to, if they get it they certainly don’t read it or understand it.
**** ROBIN ANNE PRICE XXN MS DUFF
PN576
Did you have regard to the fact that most retail employers take their compliance obligations very seriously and take considerable care to ensure that their employees are paid correctly and understand their conditions of employment?---I don’t have a view on that.
PN577
In the next paragraph in your statement, paragraph 22, are you able to tell us in relation to a survey of supermarket employees – are you able to tell us the name of the employer of those employees?---No, I’m not.
PN578
Are you able to give us any information about the ages or gender or places of employment of the employees that were surveyed?---Sorry, the age?
PN579
The ages or the gender or the place of employment?---Well, they’re all in south-east Queensland. 50 per cent of the workforce across the board were less than 21 years of age and the gender mix is pretty even. There’s been more young men been employed in part-time casual positions and that’s probably quite a substantive change in the industry.
PN580
Are you able to tell us how many casual employees participated in that survey?
---Roughly half. I mean, I deliberately – given the rosters and information indicated to me that 50 per cent of the workers were casual, I chased them till I got 50 per cent casual response rate to prove the validity of the findings.
PN581
Are you able to tell us how many 15-year-olds student casuals participated in that particular survey?---Not off the top of my head but I’ve got a copy of it if you’d like me to go and check.
PN582
Here with you or - - -?---Yes.
PN583
We might come back to that in a moment if that’s okay. I’d also be interested in knowing how many 16-year-olds participated. You say in paragraph 22 that the majority of students wanted casual employment?---Yes.
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PN584
Do you think that that conclusion was given adequate weight in your research?---I don’t see why not. I mean, I’ve had discussions with other academics about this matter before because the prevailing view is that casual employment is detrimental. For most young people casual employment pays 25 per cent better than permanent employment; therefore it’s attractive. What I found in this case is that in this organisation at least you’ve got to state your availability a week in advance and, for most young people being able to do that, meant they had the right to refuse a shift, I suppose. That certainly didn’t mean they would get any more but they had the capacity to say, “I’m not available,’ and that was important to them.
PN585
Thank you, Dr Price. In paragraph 23 you refer to research in connection with a major supermarket chain. Am I correct in assuming that you can’t tell us the name of that chain?---You would be.
PN586
You note that in relation to that research that employees get a meal break after five hours. Are you aware which industrial instrument provides that condition?
---It was the collective agreement for the organisation.
PN587
Do you know the rate of pay that was prescribed under that collective agreement for the meal break?---Not off the top of my head any more.
PN588
Sorry?---I said not any more. I don’t remember it off hand but I could find that out for you too.
PN589
Are you aware, Dr Price, that the vast majority of modern awards and other industrial instruments provide that meal breaks are unpaid breaks?---Yes.
PN590
So in relation to your conclusion that you reached that it’s cheaper for employers to employ workers for a period of five hours or less, could you explain that conclusion?---The difficulty as far as the organisation was concerned was scheduling breaks for people. So if you’ve got an unpaid meal break presumably you have hours before and after and then you actually need staff coverage for the meal break.
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PN591
Sorry, I’m not following how it would then be cheaper for employers to employ workers for less than five hours?---Well, you’re not actually saving any money. What you’re doing is making that logistically a lot easier to staff, so you don’t have to have someone coming in for three hours and then having an unpaid break and coming back for another three hours and have to cover that one-hour period in the middle.
PN592
All right. So when you say that it was cheaper for that employer to employ workers for less than five hours, perhaps you should have said it was easier, more viable, more operationally viable?---Perhaps, yes.
PN593
I was going to ask you about the reference to food court in paragraph 24 but you obviously can’t tell me who that retailer is. Are you able to tell me how many stores they have and where their stores are located?---Nationwide and I would think it would probably be in excess of 700.
PN594
Also in paragraph 24, Dr Price, you say in the very last sentence, ‘Of the casual employees surveyed 51 per cent want longer hours, 43 per cent were happy with their hours and six per cent wanted shorter hours’. Are you able to tell me how many of those casuals surveyed were school students?---Were what, sorry?
PN595
Were school students?---I could go and split the statistics again but I don’t have it with me. I mean, I’ve got it with me. It was a reasonable – you know, a reasonable proportion of the casuals, I think probably 25 per cent. That’s a guess.
PN596
In paragraph 26 you refer to enterprise agreements of major retail chains extending ordinary working hours and reducing penalties?---Yes.
PN597
Are you able to tell me which agreements, which specific agreements, you’re referring to there or provide an example of where such an agreement has reduced a penalty rate?---Well, I think I did some research with – and took the rosters from the supermarket that I used in my PhD and, taking those shifts and I worked out how much people would be paid under what was at that stage the Queensland State Retail Award and under the Woolworths and Coles agreements - and under both the Woolworths and Coles agreements – if you were normally working evenings or after 6 pm or weekends, then you’re probably worse off.
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PN598
When you refer to the broadening of ordinary working hours, are you able to tell me what instrument you are referring to?---No, if you then look at either the Coles and Woolworths agreements, I think Woolworths is phrased as, ‘Ours is the 24/7 business’ and everything else is ordinary and I seem to remember that Coles is largely the same. So you can be rostered to work whenever. Some hours attract some kind of a loading but a good many don’t.
PN599
You also refer to the extension of trading hours in that paragraph 26. Are you able to explain the extension that you’re referring to?---Well, over time most shops used to shut at 5.30 in Brisbane and then they extended – and they used to close at midday on Saturday about 1988, I think, and then they extended trade all day Saturday and then they brought in Sunday trade from 10.00 till 4.00 and then that got extended to 9.00 to 6.00 and any night of the week.
PN600
Paragraph 27, Dr Price, you state that retailers take full advantage of every regulatory option to reduce their wage costs. Could you explain the basis of that statement?---From what I’ve seen, and looking at the rosters for this larger organisation, where there is a penalty that came into place at a certain time, well, I found that people’s rosters changed in order to avoid hours that attract penalty payments. And to some, like nightfill, you used to get higher rates from 9 pm and then it sort of became midnight and there’s just gradual - - -
PN601
So is that a regulatory option to reduce the wage costs or is that just an operational change to reflect the provisions of their - - -?---No, if the way the instrument is framed allows you to structure your labour in such a way that you can avoid costs, then in my experience they have been.
PN602
All right. So essentially your criticism is directed at retailers for applying the terms of an applicable industrial instrument, an enterprise agreement or a modern award?---Mm.
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PN603
Does that view that you hold extend to – is it only in relation to retail or in relation to other industry sectors as well?---I think retail is an industry that’s particularly focused on cutting the costs of labour.
PN604
So is what you’re saying that notwithstanding the legal obligations that a retailer might have under a modern award or an enterprise agreement that there’s superimposed on top of those obligations some other obligation to pay people more?---No, I don’t see what you’re getting at.
PN605
Well, you’re saying that retailers are taking advantage. I would say that that is suggesting that there is some exploitation involved but, if they’re only implementing the conditions of their agreement or the award, how can you say that they have obligations greater than - - -?---I think they have been placing what’s the terms in the agreement under significant pressure and that’s what’s led to the regulatory change which – and then they’ve taken advantage of it which is good business sense.
PN606
Well, it’s good business sense and the content of an agreement is negotiated between the retailer and the SDA in most occasions?---I’m aware of that.
PN607
At paragraph 29 you refer to the difficulty of defining a school student. Did you have a look in any of your research, current award or agreement provisions that might assist in defining what a school student was?---No, that’s in relation to a comment that some of the employers made. What we found was that the employers don’t have particularly robust HR information systems so when the Queensland state legislation was introduced and it restricted the number of hours you could employ a school student, a lot of them didn’t know who they had on their books who was a school student.
PN608
So it’s not a language definition. It’s in terms of the employer, this particular employer, being able to identify which of its casuals - - -?---Well, that’s part of the problem. The other problem is that school finishing ages differ across Australia. So who’s a school student in Victoria may well legally be able to leave school in Queensland. So for a national organisation, that’s going to be problematic.
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PN609
Sorry, if I could just take you back to paragraph 27 for a brief moment you state in that paragraph that a 1.5 minimum engagement will create a strong incentive for retailers to substitute more expensive forms of labour with schoolchildren. Could you explain the basis of that statement a little further, please?---Okay. I’ll give you an example. When I looked at the rosters for this organisation for Saturdays, if you look at how many hours of labour they use for the entire Saturday that they’re open for trade, there’s roughly 20 to 22 people for any given half-hour period over the entire trading day. Now, you could employ 20 people for an eight-hour day. What the organisation chooses to do is to employ about 60 or slightly more people for the four-hour shift as opposed to 20 people. So my following that logic, if you allow a retailer to employ someone, a particular group of people in the labour market, for an hour and a half, what you’ll probably find is that say a four and a half hour shift or a three-hour shift becomes two one and a half hour shifts and - - -
PN610
So how does that make it a substitution of a more expensive form of labour with schoolchildren?---Because if you’re limited to employing people for three hours and you can’t physically employ a schoolchild because they’re not available, then you have to choose another labour source if you really need a body in your store.
PN611
But for those retailers like the major retailer that your research is based on, I mean, assuming they have opening hours that extend well and truly past 6.00 or 7 o’clock in the pm. We mentioned that they were likely – the enterprise agreements were likely to stipulate that they were 24-a-day operations. How in that particular circumstance would it be preferable for them to substitute student casuals for other forms of labour?---Well, students are cheaper and the software packages that calculate who gets to work in the store for any particular shift obviously consider – you know, factor in – the person’s age which is one - - -
PN612
Yes?---You know – and they’re obviously one of the – like provisos in the software packages. You know, you start with the permanent employees that you have to employ and then you go for the cheapest form of labour. If one body is much the same as the next, why not employ the cheapest?
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PN613
But aren’t schoolchildren the cheapest form of labour currently with the three-hour engagement?---They’re cheap at any time of the day.
PN614
They’re cheap at any time of the day, so the issue that you’re identifying in terms of retailers substituting schoolchildren because they’re a cheaper form of labour exists currently. It’s not a necessary consequence of the minimum engagement period being reduced to 1.5 hours?---Not necessarily but from my experience the temptation – the other thing you need to factor in is that nobody in retail actually works three hours. There’s a significant amount of unpaid labour in this industry. The five minutes you get there early and you’re ready and then the 10 or 15 that you maybe stay back and highly likely you don’t get paid for, so the more bodies you have the more free labour you get attached either end.
PN615
If I could take you to paragraph 30 of your statement, please, Dr Price, you have said in that paragraph that the level of vulnerability of student workers is high. Are you able to distinguish between the retail sector and other sectors that employ young people?---No, I think that’s pretty much an across the board observation in most of the literature.
PN616
All right. So would you say that that is a characteristic of student workers generally not something that particularly pertains to the retail industry?---Not necessarily student workers – young workers.
PN617
Thank you. In paragraph 31 you state that a situation where a student worker could be employed for five days by 1.5 hours a day will have a detrimental effect. Did you mean to say ‘will’ in that paragraph or should you have said ‘may’?---I would think it will because most school students have other commitments. They have lives, you know. They have boyfriends and girlfriends and sporting commitments.
PN618
So depending on the nature of those other commitments, it may have a detrimental effect. There could very well be students who it suits their personal circumstances to work five days at 1.5 hours a day?---There may be but, you know, the school students who don’t have teachers that set homework that has to be done in the next day or - - -
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PN619
So if the current award allows for a casual student to work four days four hours a day, would you say that this would have a detrimental effect?---Potentially, yes.
PN620
So your position really is that excessive hours will have a detrimental - or may have a detrimental effect?---No, the effect of working hours, it’s experienced quite differently by different children across a year level cohort.
PN621
If I can give you a specific example. Christopher Carenza, a year 12 student, gave evidence in this proceeding yesterday and he’s filed a statement in the matter. His statement says that he worked at Dick Smith on one late night and a four or five-hour shift on a Saturday and a Sunday. At the same time he also worked at Subway from 5 pm till 11 pm on three nights a week, so he’s working somewhere around a total of 30 hours. Would you say that that roster will have a detrimental effect or would have had a detrimental effect?---It would depend on the child, the child’s circumstances, whether the child is already disengaged from the education system in which case it probably would not have a detrimental effect. The other thing we found is quite a few year 9 students who are deliberately getting around the Queensland child employment legislation are holding two jobs for less than 12 hours and in most cases it was quite a considered choice that they were going to work an awful lot of hours while they were young and then they were going to stop working in year 11 and 12 when the marks start to matter.
PN622
So your position is that depending on the particular circumstances that the pattern of hours they may be working regardless of whether it’s a minimum engagement of 1.5 hours, three hours, may have a detrimental effect?---Sorry, can you repeat that?
PN623
Your position is that depending on the particular student’s circumstances and their study commitments, everything else going on in their lives, various patterns of hours could have a detrimental effect. It’s not necessarily a detrimental effect that only relates to a 1.5 hour minimum shift?---No, that – but, I mean, with the detrimental effect with such a short shift is the time and the effort that it requires to actually get to work and come home and I would suspect, from what employers were telling me when I conducted the interviews, that children are not particularly reliable in that they don’t prioritise work for quite obvious reasons. If you’re only getting three hours a week occasionally and you’re talking about $8 an hour or something, if children have something better in their view to do then they will do it. So I think trying to get young people to come and work one and a half hours is going to increase the number of young people who don’t bother turning up for shifts.
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PN624
Yes, I appreciate that argument but that’s a bit a different to saying that a 1.5 hour shift would have a detrimental effect on them. You’re saying that it could have other negative consequences?---Any work midweek could have detrimental effects on a schoolchild.
PN625
If I could take you to paragraph 35 of your statement, please, Dr Price, you state in that paragraph that stipulating that school age workers can only work after school until close of trade will create significant additional administrative work. Could you tell me what part of the NRA’s application you’re referring to?---What I’m actually referring to is a direct quote from some of the employers who – and this is again linked to the fact that they don’t have good human resources information systems and they don’t know who’s a school age child and it’s pretty much a direct quote from one of the employers I interviewed who’s made a comment about, you know, the arranged – the number of different schooling arrangements in Queensland just blows my mind or something to that effect.
PN626
In paragraph 34 you state that the long-term value of any learning gained from their retail jobs is therefore questionable. Would you be able to explain the basis of that view, please?---Okay. This is sort of drawn from our interviews with teachers. In every school we went to we interviewed the teachers or the vocational education guidance counsellors, those sorts of people. What they all identified is that across a year level cohort you have a group of mainly academically engaged students. These are the young people who come with the employability skills, so they’d pick them up through participating in sport and orchestras and they’re polite and they’re well presented and, down the other end, you’ve got a cohort of young people who 20 years ago would not still have been at school. They would have been able to leave and get some sort of a trade and then you’ve got a group in the middle who struggle and they’re not necessarily particularly academic. They might be doing some of the school-based traineeships. They might be doing subjects qualified for academic - to enable them to go to university or TAFE or something like that. The effect on those children is quite differential. Now, a retailer would logically employ the young people who come with employability skills, so you would automatically choose the polite, well-presented young person to come and work in your business because that minimises the amount of time and effort that you need to put into making that young person employable. Now, those young people are predominantly from the group that are engaged with education. So they’re the young people who actually experience probably the most detrimental effect in their work, study, life balance. That’s the thinking behind that.
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PN627
That’s the thinking behind the study that would determine the value of - - -?
---Yes, so the young people who would benefit from an opportunity to work in retail or anywhere else are the young people who pretty much disengage from education or the young people who are long-term unemployed who’ve had to leave school. Those young people really would benefit but the cohort that most of the retailers employ, and quite logically so, they really don’t get an awful lot of benefit because they’ve learnt those skills in the home, in sporting clubs, participating in other things in their life.
PN628
All right. If I could take you back to paragraph 15 of your statement, please, on page 6, you state there that the data you examined suggests that paperwork has many benefits for young people including social opportunities, generic social skills, money which may not be available from parents, good quality work experience in some cases and a sense of autonomy. So you would agree that there are various long-term values that can in fact be derived from employment - - -?---I don’t know that I would say long-term values. A lot of the young people we spoke to liked going to work because if you live in a country town there’s not much else to do and, if all your friends work, it becomes part of their social group – is that, ‘We go to work.’ And then your friends drop into the local supermarket or whatever.
PN629
So you don’t necessarily disagree that employment of young people is a valuable pastime and is something that should be encouraged?---No. I don’t know that I would encourage all children to work during school but for some children it probably has definite benefits but certainly not for all. I mean, children are not the same.
PN630
In paragraph 36, Dr Price, you’re saying that shortening the length of a shift after school would create additional pressure on parents. Are there any parts of your statement where there’s specific evidence in support of that conclusion?---No, only the Australian Bureau of Statistics undertook some research on child employment. Part of the problem when you’re looking at child work is that when we measure, well, the ABS to our labour force statistics, they only start counting people at 15, so our labour force is 15 to 64-year-olds. So this is one of the first studies where somebody actually surveyed and looked at young people and their experiences of work and that’s the 2006 one.
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PN631
Can you think of a circumstance where a shorter shift might actually be more convenient for a working parent?---I can’t, no.
PN632
If a working mum say worked from 9.00 to 5.00 in a town where her child’s school was situated, is it possible she would find it much more convenient if the child stopped worked at 5.30 rather than 8 pm and she could then collect them and they could travel home together?---Maybe.
PN633
That would be a situation where a shorter shift might be more convenient for a working mum?---It might be.
PN634
Thank you, Dr Price. I have no further questions of this witness, your Honour.
PN635
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAMMONE [2.54PM]
MR MAMMONE: Dr Price, just a few questions in regard to your statement. I take it that your research focus is predominantly Queensland based. Is that correct?---Predominantly.
PN637
In preparing this statement, the research that you’ve quoted and referred to, is any of that outside of the Queensland jurisdiction?---No, the bulk of my research would actually be Queensland but with the exception that I did get a pile of AWAs that were retail industry and I stipulated Queensland and New South Wales. That was some time ago.
PN638
So some of the research - do you know which one that research - - -?---It’s actually – it’s not referred to in my statement but it’s a number of – the publication number is 7 and I haven’t sworn on it directly except there’s one point where I point to the diminution of conditions across this industry.
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PN639
Which photograph?---Good question. 26 – so not directly referred to but it certainly has helped frame my view about reductions in wages and working conditions.
PN640
So that was confined to AWAs in New South Wales?---And Queensland.
PN641
Queensland, yes, okay. So paragraph 25 of your statement where you say, ‘On the basis of my research and experience I am able to make the following observations relevant to minimum casual engagement periods.’ It would be correct to say on the base of your research and experience but predominantly confined to Queensland?---Yes.
PN642
Did you study any minimum engagement clauses in any awards or agreements in preparing this statement?---No, I didn’t specifically hunt Australia-wide. I’m aware that from when I did my PhD and I downloaded copies of the different state-based awards that South Australia had a provision of I think it was two hours for training purposes and I wasn’t aware of the Victorian clause which I now understand is shorter or was shorter.
PN643
Okay, so just taking South Australia, you mentioned South Australia, there was prior to the modern award commencing, an award in South Australia insofar as it related to junior casuals. There was a 1.5 hour minimum between 4 pm and 6 pm. Are you aware of that clause?---No, well, when I looked – and this is just trying to remember – there was a two-hour provision for training purposes. I might be incorrect. I certainly have not gone and searched state-based awards recently.
PN644
So are you aware that in Victoria, prior to the modern award commencing in Victoria, there was a two-hour minimum?---I’ve been told that.
PN645
Paragraph 15 of your statement - - -?---So is that 15?
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PN646
15, sorry, yes. You referred to the many benefits for youth people. I take it young people?---Yes, typo.
PN647
Including social opportunities, generic social skills, money which may not be available from parents, good quality work experience in some cases and a sense of autonomy. Are you aware of a House of Representatives standing committee on education and training, inquiry and report titled ‘Adolescent Overload – Report of inquiry into combining school and work supporting successful youth transitions’?
---I have seen the report and I probably cited it but I couldn’t recall it.
PN648
If I could hand you a copy of the entire report. Your Honour, this part of the Victorian government submissions. I haven’t reproduced a copy for yourself but the parties will have copies of it. At the tab at that particular occupation, paragraph – and just give me a moment – it’s paragraph 3.1.2 on page 24 – if you could just read that to yourself and let me know once you’ve finished reading that?---Yes.
PN649
Those six dot points at paragraph3.1.2, would you agree with all of those statements there?---Not necessarily. I came across quite a few young people were combining school and work - did nothing for their confidence or self-esteem because they’d been bullied in the workplace. Financial wellbeing – yes, it contributes to that. Facilitate development and social networks – well, expands children’s social networks to outside school but in a lot of cases they work with the young people they go to school with, so their social network might be expanded by one or two people that happen to be their supervisor. Gain useful knowledge and independence, exercise greater responsibility and self-reliance – quite possibly. I mean, there’s other ways of doing that. Work ethic and attitude – now, that depends on the child and the kind of upbringing they’ve had but in some cases yes. Enable students to develop work and organisational skills including time management – you know, again, yes, that will be true of some children and some children just don’t need to.
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PN650
Okay. So you’ve got some caveats on a number of those - - -?---In a general sense, you know, work can be quite beneficial for a lot of young people. A lot of the young people we spoke to, it was as much about getting out of the house and having something to do. If you’re in a mining town in western Queensland where there’s just not much other than watching television and there’s nothing much in the way of sport or anything else, work is a great option. But, you know, for other kids you can acquire a work ethic through other mechanisms. You don’t have to work or undertake paid work. Like 26 per cent of the young people that we surveyed volunteered. They coached sporting teams or they collected for charities, do all sorts of amazing things, and I’m willing to bet those young people have work ethic, quite phenomenal work ethic in some cases, and they’ve never been paid for it.
PN651
In relation to the non-monetary aspects of work, so putting aside the income that they receive, would you accept the proposition that the non-monetary aspects, which you yourself have in your statement said include social opportunities, generic social skills and good quality work experience, that whilst there’s no monetary benefit (indistinct 3.04.52) it has value?---Yes. I mean, some people, some young people will acquire those things through other mechanisms. We don’t necessarily have to have a paid job to expand your social opportunity.
PN652
At paragraph 16 you said that you identified some students working overly long hours and at paragraph 30 you also mention in the second sentence of paragraph 30, ‘The level of vulnerability of student workers is high and in response most state governments have legislated to limit the amount of hours of work that school students can perform.’ Now, is it your view that longer working hours in and of itself is a particular risk to school-age students?---Not for all students. For some, yes. For others, who have disengaged with school, if it provides the mechanism for getting them to move into the workforce, then it could be quite a positive thing. A lot of more sophisticated research is starting to look at, well, the young people who disengaged from education before they even hit high school, and there are quite sizeable numbers of young people for whom that is the case, those are the young people who really will benefit from work, whether it’s ridiculously long hours or not because those are the young people who don’t want to be at school. So anyway they can transition out of school into a job is great news for them.
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PN653
Is it correct to say that you highlighting longer hours may be a negative aspect of work?---They may be.
PN654
They may be?---For some children.
PN655
Okay. Now, would that be more of a problem than minimum hours. So if you had to weigh up what may be more of a detriment - - -?---I don’t know that you can weigh it up. I mean, it’s experience differentially.
PN656
Paragraph 22, and I apologise if you’ve answered this question in relation to questions of Ms Duff, but in the middle of that paragraph you refer to a majority, 51 per cent of casual workers wanted longer working hours. Now, is this a combination of student and non-student casuals?---Yes, but there were very few from memory who were non-student casuals. I mean, what I found quite interesting is this organisation only recruited people into the company as a casual worker. Now, I can understand why you would do that in order to avoid unfair dismissal and - - -
PN657
Sorry, I’ll have to cut you off because my question was – I think you may not have answered the question or may have misheard it but the 51 per cent that you refer to is both student and non-student casual employees?---Yes, and there was a fairly small percentage who were non-student. They weren’t all school students. A lot of them are university students but mostly.
PN658
Further down in that paragraph you say that the paper raised issues about control over working time and identified that of the casual part-time employees. ‘The majority of the student group wished to remain casual to give them the right of refusal over hours and a higher hourly wage whereas the non-student group of casual workers were more inclined to want longer hours and permanent employment.’ Now, when you refer to the student group wished to remain casual to give them the right of refusal over hours – when you say ‘refusal over hours’ do you mean that they wished to set hours as appropriate to their individual needs?
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---No, I mean, if you – you’re required to notify your availability a week in advance so that the organisation can roster. That is your right of refusal in that you can say, ‘I’m not available on Thursday night or Friday night because I’ve got tennis fixtures,’ or something. That’s what their right of refusal extended to.
PN659
Yes, so would you say that it was important for those student workers to have control over the times that they were unable to work?---I think the most important issue for casual workers is the capacity to control when you work basically.
PN660
Okay?---And it’s really important for young people too that if you know when you’re working you can plan your homework and your flute practice or whatever it is you do around it.
PN661
At paragraph 27, and you did answer a question put to you by Ms Duff, the second sentence, if we consider currently schoolchildren that are already providing their labour, in that case there is really no incentive for the retailer to substitute. Is that correct?---Well, if they can’t employ a schoolchild for three hours, you have to pay somebody else and there’s not many cheaper forms of labour available.
PN662
In your view is that a problem with the fact that there are junior rates of pay?---I think extending junior rates of pay to 21 years of age is a bit problematic when a number of young people that we spoke to started work at 13, so you’ve effectively got eight years’ work experience before you get an adult wage. You can’t run the argument that they’re inexperienced after eight years, even if that’s – yes.
PN663
So do you believe that there should be junior rates?---I think there is a role for junior rates in some cases but I think 21 is really stretching it. When you look at the age that young people start working in this country, like they’ve had a lot of work experience in different environments by the time they get to 21.
PN664
Paragraph 34 of your statement, you say the long-term value of any learning gained from their retail jobs is therefore questionable. I think I heard an answer from yourself that retailers are not all the same. At paragraph 32 you’ve referred to school students as not a homogenous group. It would be true to say that employers are not a homogenous group also?---Yes, that’s true.
**** ROBIN ANNE PRICE XXN MR MAMMONE
PN665
So this is really a generalisation, isn’t it?---To the extent that young casuals work at the busiest times of the day and generally at high intensity and receive very little training. That’s pretty much what the young people told us that they didn’t actually get much training and I shop, so you stand anywhere in a weekend and you look at the nature of the people working and they’re flat out.
PN666
But it would also be true to say that in some individual firms there is a high level or higher degree of on-the-job training I’m sure there is but in the 10 years I spent doing retail training I didn’t meet terribly many really good ones.
PN667
Paragraph 39 of your statement – you say that your research and experience in the retail industry, ‘Leads me to assert that the stated grounds supporting this proposed variation are not satisfied,’ and you go on to outline why that is the case. In preparing this statement, did you have any knowledge of the first application made by a number of retail organisations before this tribunal to vary the minimum engagement clause?---Yes, because I get the auto updates on the retail award.
PN668
So are you familiar with the decision of this tribunal dated 9 July 2010 in relation to that application?---Is that the one about casuals and the minimum period of engagement for casuals across the board?
PN669
If I can hand up a copy of that decision because I will refer to particular paragraphs of that decision. This application did concern the same clause in the Modern Retail Award and I just want to take you to two paragraphs and would like you to read those to yourself and to let me know when you’ve finished - paragraphs 17 and 18 of that decision?---Mm’hm.
PN670
You’ve finished that?---Yes.
PN671
So are you aware of the circumstances in relation to the – take paragraph 17 – in relation to the two school students that were employed by a business that had lost further employment opportunities as a result of the minimum engagement clause and the unavailability of - - -?---I read it in the newspaper at the time, yes.
**** ROBIN ANNE PRICE XXN MR MAMMONE
PN672
Well, would it be reasonable that in the circumstances of a business that only operates between 5.00 and 6 pm weekdays and a school student is only available after school to work during those times that they be able to work less than three hours?---I can’t see why you actually would need to employ a school student given that most of these areas have large numbers of unemployed young people or other people who are looking for work in the local labour market and I don’t necessarily think that, having to go to work for an hour and a half of an afternoon, is of much benefit to a young person.
PN673
And you say that even despite - if I was to say to you that there was evidence given that they - - -?---Look, I’m sure – you know, if you - - -
PN674
Cutting you off, if I can just finish the question, sorry. There was evidence given that they did want to continue working, that it was of benefit to them for the mere fact that they chose to provide a witness statement and to participate in those proceedings, in which case the application was to agitate for a change to the minimum engagement clause. So even in those circumstances you say in your view there is no benefit to employees?---I think there might be a benefit of an hour and a half’s work for that young man but, I mean, what’s stopping him working some other day? I mean, obviously he lives next door because if he’s prepared to do an hour and a half’s work – I mean, I know from my children going to and from work it would probably cost you about $8 actually where we live to earn 15.
PN675
So in that sense you’re saying that transport is a major – that the mode of transport and the distance to work - - -?---Not for most children in the cities.
PN676
Sorry?---I don’t think that there is any real necessity for school students to work for an hour and a half of an afternoon after school.
PN677
Okay, that’s your answer. That’s fine. So where do you say at paragraph – still at paragraph 39 – at paragraph 30 you say that allowing school students to work shorter hours may increase their social inclusion through increase of workforce participation. So are you now saying that shorter hours in that paragraph is anything other than – is there something higher than one and a half hours?---I think that – I mean, for young people who have disengaged from education any kind of work that enables them to transition from failing in the education system to getting some kind of paid employment increases their social inclusion but sport and religion and, you know, relationships also increase young people’s social inclusion.
**** ROBIN ANNE PRICE XXN MR MAMMONE
PN678
But in your statement you’re saying allowing school students, so they’re actually still at school?---Okay. This boy, if the young boy at Terang, if he was allowed to work for an hour and a half then, yes, it’s going to increase – he’ll have $15 and he’ll have a job assuming his employer can’t get him to work in the supermarket next door or somewhere else.
PN679
So for that - - -?---For that child, yes, it may be beneficial.
PN680
Okay?---But by and large, you know, for most children, particularly in urban areas, it’s not worth the effort.
PN681
Still at paragraph 30, you say, ‘However, schoolchildren’s workforce participation rates in Australia are already very high by world standards.’ What is the problem with our high participation rates?---Nothing per se. It’s just that we stand out in a global context as a nation that employs large numbers of school-age children compared to (indistinct 3.22.31) developed nation.
PN682
So there’s no problem. It’s just a matter of fact?---It’s, yes, it’s a fact. You can’t argue that, you know, we need to – this young man at Terang will be detrimentally affected if he can’t work an hour and a half in an afternoon because most of the evidence suggests that Australian school students don’t have any trouble picking up employment.
PN683
But you’ve prefaced the first part of paragraph (b) with the word ‘However’ implying that children’s workforce participation rates are either too high or detrimental?---No, we’ve – if you look – I framed it around the rationale for variations in awards and, you know, one of the – I can’t think what the term is – one of the broad aims of awards is to increase social inclusion, however that’s defined.
**** ROBIN ANNE PRICE XXN MR MAMMONE
PN684
The last sentence of that paragraph, ‘The majority of young people employed in retail do not go on to continue to work in the industry.’ If I could be so flippant as to say so what? I mean, what is the relevance of the fact that in your view the majority of young people employed in retail do not go on to continue to work in the industry?---Well, I think that’s probably a bit sad because I think the industry potentially has quite a lot to offer as far as employment prospects go but I think across the board it’s – and the decision to, you know, employ large numbers of people for very short hours means it’s not an industry that’s viewed seriously or that people see that there are career prospects in, and that was one of the things that came through quite clearly in the survey of staff in the supermarket. The supermarket had spent an awful lot of money investing and training and had quite sophisticated training packages but the staff either (a) didn’t realise that there’s training and promotional opportunities available, or (b) just weren’t interested. So you sort of – it’s an industry that unfortunately manages to disenfranchise a large proportion of the people who work in it based on their early workforce experiences. So a lot of young people don’t take it seriously.
PN685
Is it also true that the literature suggests that this type of employment is a stepping stone for other types of employment?---As is any formative experience. It’s not just this industry. It’s just that this – well, fast food probably more but retail predominantly have a labour pattern that is pretty much based on young casual workers.
PN686
And you’ve said previously at paragraph 32 that school students are not a homogenous group?---No.
PN687
Is there any research that you can point to that supports the majority of young people not going on to work in the industry?---You would have to – if you look at probably the ABS labour turnover statistics – would be the best way to sort of track that. There are individual studies.
**** ROBIN ANNE PRICE XXN MR MAMMONE
PN688
But in saying what you’ve said at paragraph 30 have you actually considered any of the data or research available?---For which one, sorry?
PN689
For your statement that the majority of young people employed in retail do not go on to continue to work in the industry?---Well, none of the young people that we surveyed, the 892, wanted to continue to work in retail and my other research in the industry with the unnamed supermarket indicated the results of the survey there was that no-one wanted to continue to work for a career there. Whereas the organisation actually offered quite a lot of potential career opportunities but no-one saw them as attractive.
PN690
So this is the majority of young people in your research you’re referring to?---To that extent, yes, but if you looked at, you know, ABS labour turnover, or labour mobility I think they call it, and you could extrapolate that out and it would probably tell you pretty much the same thing.
PN691
Paragraph (c) – you say that the industry already exhibits significant flexible modern work practices. It’s true to say this is confined to Queensland, predominantly Queensland given that’s your background?---Given the large numbers of national retailers, I think you could probably generalise a little broader than Queensland.
PN692
Sorry, so national employers in the retail industry?---Yes.
PN693
So when you say national retailers we’re really talking about those that trade past 5 pm weekdays?---Some national – I don’t know whether every national retailer chooses to do that but by and large it’s an employer’s choice how long they trade.
PN694
Well, if I can take you back to the decision that you’ve got before you then, the circumstance with the Terang business, in that case it’s quite clear the store closed at 5.30 pm?---Yes, but it didn’t need to.
**** ROBIN ANNE PRICE XXN MR MAMMONE
PN695
Sorry, you’re saying that it could trade past 5.30 pm?---I mean, I’m assuming if Victoria’s trading hours legislation is anything like Queensland’s, then there’s pretty much no restrictions on what you can trade.
PN696
Okay, all right. That’s all the questions I have.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR O'GRADY [3.29PM]
MR O'GRADY: Dr Price, my questions go to your contention at paragraph 28 of your statement?---Yes.
PN698
Do I understand your contention there to be that by reducing the minimum hours of engagement to one and a half hours it creates an opportunity for employers to spread the hours across a larger number of employees so as to reduce their overall cost?---Yes.
PN699
And the reason that the overall cost is reduced is because it increases the prospect that they won’t have to make superannuation contributions for those employees?
---That is one factor, yes, but equally - - -
PN700
On the basis of this paragraph, a significant factor?---Look, I don’t know whether it’s significant. I am just aware of when I looked at the rostering arrangements within the organisation – and the organisation’s representatives are not going to tell you that, you know, ‘We’re employing X number of young people because they’re under 18 and we don’t have to pay them superannuation,’ but logic suggests that, if you’re a business person, you are trying to operate financially viable as possible and, if that is a possibility, then some retailers, not all but some, will take advantage of it.
PN701
That proposition of logic came to you as a result of a review of the Superannuation Guarantee Act?---Many – well, when I first started my PhD that was one of the factors that I was made aware of.
**** ROBIN ANNE PRICE XXN MR O'GRADY
PN702
So you haven’t looked at it yourself?---I have not – well, I did look at it then but I haven’t looked at it recently.
PN703
Okay?---That would be about a decade ago.
PN704
Well, do you know that the Superannuation Guarantee Act divides employees up into age groups when it comes to determining the rate at which the superannuation guarantee charge would operate in the event that an employer does not make superannuation contributions?---No, I don’t but I do now.
PN705
The legislation, Dr Price, breaks the age groups up to those who are between 18 and 69 years of age. Does that sound right to you?---I don’t know. I haven’t read the legislation.
PN706
No. It might assist if I hand this to you. What I’m handing up, your Honour, is an Australian Tax Office publication ‘Guide to Superannuation for Employers’. There is a copy there for your Honour.
PN707
Do you mind having a look at the highlighted parts of the document. So you see there’s an additional qualification in respect of people who are under 18 years of age that, in order to attract superannuation guarantee charge, they must have worked more than 30 hours per week?---Mm’hm.
PN708
Students are just not in that category are they, Dr Price?---No, they’re not.
PN709
Thank you. No further questions, your Honour.
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND [3.34PM]
MR FRIEND: Not all secondary students are under 18?---I beg your pardon?
**** ROBIN ANNE PRICE XXN MR O'GRADY
PN711
Are any secondary students over 18?---We actually uncovered a couple but not very many. I mean, actually that might change. I know young people in Victoria stay at school later.
PN712
Yes, how many years of schooling are there in Queensland?---One less than everywhere else.
PN713
Thank you. So there’s 12?---Yes.
PN714
Can I ask you to go to paragraph 5(e) of your statement. You refer to five employer association representatives. Now, I understand what you’ve said about confidentiality but you say that those employer association representatives came from youth-dominated industries. Would it be infringing on that confidentiality to reveal whether or not any of them were in the retail sector?---Put it this way, if you were selecting a sample that was representative of employers of young people, I would have thought that would be one of the ones that you would research.
PN715
Thank you, doctor. I have nothing further from Dr Price. She may be excused.
PN716
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you for your evidence, Dr Price. You can step down?---Thank you.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.35PM]
MR FRIEND: Your Honour, that’s the witness evidence. Because of some things that have arisen today and perhaps yesterday, there may be a couple of documents tomorrow but there won’t be much. We don’t have anything further apart from that and our final submissions.
PN718
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. Mr Mammone, I think you filed with your submission some other documents. I might mark the ACCI submissions together with the documents attached exhibit N1.
**** ROBIN ANNE PRICE RXN MR FRIEND
EXHIBIT #N1 ACCI SUBMISSIONS TOGETHER WITH ATTACHED DOCUMENTS
THE VICE PRESIDENT: And Mr O’Grady, you’ve done likewise. I’ll mark the outline of submissions dated 4 March and the documents attached to those submissions exhibit O1.
EXHIBIT #O1 OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS FROM MR O'GRADY DATED 4/3/11 TOGETHER WITH ATTACHED DOCUMENTS
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Is there any other evidence that anyone wishes to call in the matter?
PN721
MS DUFF: No, your Honour.
PN722
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Is it convenient that we proceed to submissions at this stage?
PN723
MS DUFF: Your Honour, the NRA hadn’t anticipated being in a position to be asked for opening submission this afternoon so, if it would suit your Honour, we would propose to open with our opening submissions tomorrow morning.
PN724
THE VICE PRESIDENT: How long do you expect to be with your - - -
PN725
MS DUFF: No more than 20 minutes, half an hour.
PN726
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes - and Mr Friend.
PN727
MR FRIEND: It will depend. I assume the other parties will go before me, your Honour.
PN728
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN729
MR FRIEND: It will depend in part on what falls from them but at the moment I’d anticipate about an hour.
PN730
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Very well. Well, I’m reluctant to lose some of the time. Is there any prospect that we can use some of that time? Anyone prepared to put their submissions today even if the applicant is not ready?
PN731
MR O’GRADY: I’m in this position, your Honour. I think I would save you time if I went after Ms Duff and Mr Mammone because I would feel confident that I’m in a position to tailor my submissions in a way which of course does not travel on territory that has already been dealt with.
PN732
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, I can understand that, yes.
PN733
MR MAMMONE: I don’t anticipate being longer than 10 to 15 minutes. I would prefer to go after the NRA.
PN734
THE VICE PRESIDENT: You’d prefer to go after the applicant as well.
PN735
MR FRIEND: Your Honour, unless Mr O’Grady is going to be very long we’ll finish in the morning, I think.
PN736
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Tomorrow?
PN737
MR FRIEND: If we start tomorrow I think we’ll finish in the morning.
PN738
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, well, I’d be disposed to commence at 9.30 tomorrow unless that presents some difficulty for anyone.
PN739
MR FRIEND: That’s convenient to me.
PN740
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Very well, we’ll adjourn to 9.30 tomorrow morning.
<ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 29 APRIL 2011 [3.39PM]
PN418
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs
LOUISE MAY BUESNELL, SWORN PN422
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND PN422
EXHIBIT #F8 STATEMENT OF LOUISE MAY BUESNELL PN429
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DUFF PN430
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAMMONE PN468
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN487
TYSON JAMES ALLEN, AFFIRMED PN491
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND PN491
EXHIBIT #F9 STATEMENT OF TYSON JAMES ALLEN PN499
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DUFF PN499
THE WITNESS WITHDREW ERROR! REFERENCE SOURCE NOT FOUND.
ROBIN ANNE PRICE, AFFIRMED PN528
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND PN528
EXHIBIT #F10 STATEMENT OF DR ROBIN ANNE PRICE PN535
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DUFF PN536
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAMMONE PN636
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR O'GRADY PN697
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND PN710
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN717
EXHIBIT #N1 ACCI SUBMISSIONS TOGETHER WITH ATTACHED DOCUMENTS PN719
EXHIBIT #O1 OUTLINE OF SUBMISSIONS FROM MR O'GRADY DATED 4/3/11 TOGETHER WITH ATTACHED DOCUMENTS PN720