PN962

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, are we ready to proceed with Mr Rees as the first witness?

PN963

MR DIXON: We are and I think he is connected and he can hear us, if your Honour pleases.

PN964

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, can we swear Mr Rees in, please?

PN965

MS BURKE: Just before Mr Rees is sworn in there are some objections to his witness statement. I don't know if you want to deal with those before the witness - - -

PN966

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We might swear him in and proceed to have the witness statement tendered, then we'll deal with the objections.

PN967

MS BURKE: Thank you.

PN968

THE ASSOCIATE: Mr Rees, can you please state your full name and address?

PN969

MR REES: Gwyn Rees, (address supplied).

<GWYN REES, AFFIRMED [10.10 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DIXON [10.10 AM]

PN970

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon.

PN971

MR DIXON: If it pleases the Commission. Mr Rees, are your full names Gwyn Rees?‑‑‑Yes, they are.

PN972

You are the chief executive of the Licensed Club Association of the ACT trading as ClubsACT?‑‑‑Yes.

PN973

For the purposes of these proceedings you have made two statements, is that correct?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN974

Do you have those statements with you in Canberra?‑‑‑Yes, I do in front of me.

PN975

Is it correct that the first of your statements, dated 21 October 2017, contains your signature following paragraph 60 which also - and it's the last of the annexures, GR14?‑‑‑Yes, that's my signature.

PN976

Shall I tender that first? If your Honour pleases.

PN977

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN978

MS L WEBB: Sorry to interrupt - my name is Lindsay Webb. I'm a sheriff's officer in the ACT Supreme Court. We have actually lost visual of you. We can hear you but we can't see you.

PN979

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right - is that able to be rectified? Mr Rees, we're just trying to rectify the video problem but while we do that we'll deal with some objections to the statements made by United Voice.

PN980

MR DIXON: Yes, thank you. I had not yet asked him to affirm the contents of the statement. It was my omission.

PN981

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We'll ask him to do that when we have some visual.

PN982

MR DIXON: Thank you.

PN983

MS BURKE: So can I just hand up a table of the objections?

PN984

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN985

MS BURKE: That bundle has all of the objections in it, of the witnesses to be heard today, except for Mr Addison who we dealt with separately. But for present purposes I only need to go to Mr Rees, of course. Before I do that could I just ask if there was sound in Canberra? I would request that the sound be turned off. Some of the objections I'm going to make will go to relevance.

PN986

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Why is that necessary?

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN987

MS BURKE: Why is it necessary that the sound be off?

PN988

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN989

MS BURKE: Because the objections overall will foreshadow aspects of the cross-examination.

PN990

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Well, we'll see how we go. I'm not anxious to turn the sound off, we might never get him back again.

PN991

MS BURKE: I'm not sure - I am opposed to that course, your Honour, but I accept it. The first objection is to paragraph 19 of Mr Rees' first statement. That's two objections there to the first sentence. Now, I accept from the ruling yesterday which I take applies or will be sought to be applied to all of the statements, that that is the type of evidence that Mr Rees may be permitted to give but nevertheless I do put the objection on the record.

PN992

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, objections noted - paragraph 19 is admitted.

PN993

MS BURKE: That's just to the first sentence, your Honour. To the third sentence - that's the sentence starting, "By way of example" - that is objected to on the basis that it's hearsay and it's prejudicial because there's no ability to test that statement.

PN994

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: How would you plan on testing it if you knew its source?

PN995

MS BURKE: Well, if - I should say that United Voice sought production of records of the water bill establishing that and was given a secondary source document so I don't know if he prepared it, I don't know what it is. It's not possible to test whether this is accurate or not, given that document.

PN996

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, I'll grant leave to CAI to elicit the source of that information from the witness. Otherwise the sentence will be admitted.

PN997

MS BURKE: Thank you. Paragraph 20, the objection is to the whole paragraph on the basis that it is speculation and opinion.

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN998

MR DIXON: We would read it - ask the witness to add in the word, "some clubs," in the first line there.

PN999

MS BURKE: Sorry - "some clubs?"

PN1000

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Instead of - so, say, "By reason of the clubs," it would say, "By reason of some clubs." Is that right, Mr Dixon?

PN1001

MR DIXON: "By reason of (indistinct) ACT maintaining such structure some clubs are meeting costs."

PN1002

MS BURKE: Yes.

PN1003

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that - - -

PN1004

MS BURKE: Yes, thank you.

PN1005

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Does that resolve the objection?

PN1006

MS BURKE: It does, your Honour.

PN1007

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Right, thank you.

PN1008

MS BURKE: Paragraph 24 is objected to on the basis that similar to the third sentence in 19 it is hearsay and it is prejudicial because of no capacity to test the veracity of that statement.

PN1009

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, I'll grant leave to the CAI to adduce evidence concerning the source of that information. Otherwise it will be admitted.

PN1010

MS BURKE: Thank you, your Honour. Paragraph 29 and the table - that objection has been withdrawn.

PN1011

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN1012

MS BURKE: Paragraphs 30 to 32 are objected to on the basis that Mr Rees is not in a position to give evidence about what every club does in terms of its operations.

PN1013

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Well, that objection is noted. Those paragraphs will be admitted.

PN1014

MS BURKE: Yes. Paragraph 33 is objected to on the basis of relevance. This application is to abolish the clubs award and amalgamate its terms into the hospitality award. Restaurants are covered by the restaurants award. Evidence about restaurants, in my submission, is irrelevant.

PN1015

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What do you say about that, Mr Dixon?

PN1016

MR DIXON: Your Honour would have seen from our submissions that it is put that clubs compete directly with entities of that nature and restaurants for custom, for revenue and the case put for clubs is of course that they employ similar people but same levels of disutility but higher rates apply.

PN1017

MS BURKE: Your Honour, it is important to note that in the penalty rates decision the application to reduce penalty rates in the restaurants award was refused, it was unsuccessful. No findings were made about the disutility of weekend work that applied to restaurant workers and currently penalty rates payable to casuals at least in the restaurants award are lower than they are payable under the hospitality award and the clubs award.

PN1018

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Well, that's the point, isn't it?

PN1019

MS BURKE: The point is that this is not what clubs are seeking to do. They're not seeking to reduce the penalty rates down to the restaurants level. That's even lower than the hospitality level.

PN1020

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Well, that's true but their complaint is that I think there is competitive issues raised by the fact that what they say are their competitors have lower penalty rates. The paragraph will be admitted.

PN1021

MS BURKE: Paragraphs 35 to 40 are objected to on the same basis.

PN1022

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That is relevance, is it?

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN1023

MS BURKE: Relevance and (indistinct) does not work for restaurants organisationally. (Indistinct) has not - this is a very clear example of evidence that's seeking to compare and contrast the clubs industry with the restaurants industry in circumstances where Mr Rees doesn't have that experience. I understood from the global ruling yesterday that that was the type of evidence that would not be admitted or that - - -

PN1024

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I mean, are these propositions seriously in dispute?

PN1025

MS BURKE: Well, your Honour, it's paragraph 40 that is the kicker - - -

PN1026

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN1027

MS BURKE: - - - because of course that's really what Mr Rees is saying.

PN1028

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What do you say about paragraph 40, Mr Dixon?

PN1029

MR DIXON: Your Honour, the position of course is that in the same basis as earlier, that they are competitors for custom. That includes competitors within the hospitality businesses and there are different rates for the same work performed if one reads that with what Mr Rees says at paragraphs 30 through to 32 and also 41 and 42. 41 and 42 are based on his knowledge as having worked in the accommodation sector and also in hospitality as a bar worker and that is underpinned by his evidence at paragraphs 4, 7 and 8.

PN1030

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: But paragraph 40 is a statement about what most clubs in the ACT think. (Indistinct).

PN1031

MR DIXON: I'm sorry, your Honour, I just missed - - -

PN1032

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Paragraph 40 is a statement about what most clubs in the ACT think to the extent they have a collective mind. It's of a different nature - it's not his opinion, it's - he is saying what the opinion of other persons is.

PN1033

MR DIXON: May I have leave to ask the witness about the basis for that, subject to your Honour's earlier ruling? If we can't establish it then it won't be admitted.

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN1034

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, thank you. Ms Burke.

PN1035

MS BURKE: Well, your Honour, Mr Rees has already given evidence that his sole experience in restaurants is working in a bar. That's in paragraph 42. The rest of his statements - - -

PN1036

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, I was talking about paragraph 40.

PN1037

MS BURKE: Yes, but the basis for - if he has any - Mr Dixon is seeking leave to lead evidence from him about his experience in restaurants - - -

PN1038

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, no - paragraph 40 is a statement about what clubs in the ACT regard to be the position.

PN1039

MS BURKE: Yes, yes, sorry.

PN1040

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So he would need to identify the basis upon which he knows that that is the case.

PN1041

MS BURKE: But it's also evidence about the competing with restaurants and I understood from the ruling yesterday that - - -

PN1042

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: If it's evidence about what - to the extent clubs have a state of mind - what the state of mind of other clubs are, not whether it's true or not.

PN1043

MS BURKE: I understand, thank you. Paragraphs 41 and 42 are objected to on a similar basis.

PN1044

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: He identifies the basis of his opinion is based on the experience he has identified and it can be regarded as limited to that context, can it not?

PN1045

MS BURKE: Yes.

PN1046

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN1047

MS BURKE: Paragraphs 44 to 48 are submission and conclusion. I note that similar paragraphs in Mr Trimarchi's statement yesterday about the history of the awards and the effect of them were withdrawn.

PN1048

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Well, 44, 45 and 47 would surely not be in dispute? They're just matters of historical record, aren't they?

PN1049

MS BURKE: They can be made as submission, your Honour. I've got no objection to that.

PN1050

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: But are they in dispute?

PN1051

MS BURKE: No, your Honour.

PN1052

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What about 46, Mr Dixon?

PN1053

MR DIXON: That is a state of knowledge that it's never been raised an issue which came to his attention in the context of where there is an attack made by our friends on the basis that steps were taken in the making of the modern award to separate the two awards out or to make two awards, I beg your pardon.

PN1054

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Well, he has no relevant experience back to the pre-modern award either, does he?

PN1055

MR DIXON: That is correct, your Honour.

PN1056

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, I won't allow paragraph 46.

PN1057

MS BURKE: The final objections to this statement are to paragraphs 49 to 51, again on the basis - - -

PN1058

MR DIXON: Sorry - we don't read 50, your Honour, and I don't read 51. But 49 is underpinned by the extracts that are in GR8 which are attached to the statement.

PN1059

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What is the objection to 49?

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN1060

MS BURKE: I'm happy to leave that in and cross-examine about it, your Honour.

PN1061

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry?

PN1062

MS BURKE: I'm happy to leave that in and cross-examine about it.

PN1063

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, thank you. So does that deal with all the objections?

PN1064

MS BURKE: It does for the first statement. There is a second statement, I'm afraid.

PN1065

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN1066

MS BURKE: There are several second statements, reply statements, filed by Clubs Australia that give this type of evidence and I'm looking first at paragraph 6, the third sentence, that reads, "I do not accept that the transfer of the club management structure from one award to another award will create confusion." That type of, "I do not accept, I do not agree," evidence or that type of statement is given as evidence in almost all of the reply submissions.

PN1067

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Presumably it's in response to a stated opinion that the merger will cause confusion.

PN1068

MS BURKE: Yes, but - - -

PN1069

MR DIXON: It is - in each instance it is.

PN1070

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Well - - -

PN1071

MR DIXON: And your Honour will note that it is said that what is said by Mr Docker by implication is not relevant because it's responding - in each case that's what Mr Docker says and we're now told that what Mr Docker says is apparently not relevant.

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN1072

MS BURKE: Your Honour, the objection is to this form of statement being given as evidence - "I don't accept, I don't agree." How is that relevant to the task of the full bench? The evidence maintains - sorry, the evidence will stay in around those statements. But this is evidence, not a submission.

PN1073

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: It explains what is being said, does it not? If Mr Docker states an opinion, then in reply he is entitled to say that he holds a different opinion, is he not?

PN1074

MS BURKE: Your Honour, the evidence that Mr Docker and the other witnesses give is evidence that they have explained the basis for. This is simply - and they don't say, "This is the situation." Whereas this type of evidence says as a fact, "The transfer of the club managers' structure from one award to another will not create confusion." That kind of assertion cannot be admitted.

PN1075

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I note the objection. I'll allow that sentence.

PN1076

MS BURKE: The same objection is made for the identified parts of paragraphs 7 and 8, the second sentence in paragraph 10, and then in paragraph 10 from, "I have worked in the hospitality and clubs industry for over 10 years," et cetera - "I have spoken to literally hundreds of employees working in the clubs industry based on these discussions." Then Mr Rees goes on to give evidence as a fact of the key motivations for employees in the clubs industry for working on weekends. That is a highly-contentious issue in this matter and employees and actual employees in the clubs industry will be giving evidence about that. This is hearsay evidence of the type that was not permitted in the penalty rates decision and it should not be permitted - - -

PN1077

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry - just with paragraph 10, that begins with the sentence beginning in the fourth line and ends where?

PN1078

MS BURKE: At the end.

PN1079

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: At the end of the paragraph?

PN1080

MS BURKE: Yes.

PN1081

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Are there any other objections of a similar nature in this reply statement?

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN1082

MS BURKE: Yes, in paragraph 13, the last sentence: "Based on my experience, I'm not aware of any suggestion that prospective employees," et cetera. Those are the two of that character.

PN1083

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon.

PN1084

MR DIXON: Your Honour, in each case the witness is responding to an assertion on the part of the deponent to the statement. Mr Constable makes the assertion that, "I do not accept that employees working in club industry only work on weekends due to penalty rates." Now, that is not underpinned by any substantive analysis and this witness is contesting that by reference to his own experience in the industry and he sets out in each case the basis upon which he forms that opposition to Mr Constable's view and the - you will note that the objection in paragraph 10 - I beg your pardon.

PN1085

The same applies to what Mr Genge says. He asserts - again that assertion would be objected to but he asserts that the club industry will have greater difficulty attracting quality employees and have greater turnover of employees if penalty rates were reduced. This witness is responding to that based on his experience. In my respectful submission, the basis for what - for his view is set out in each of those paragraphs.

PN1086

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Burke, I'm just looking at paragraph 21 of Mr Constable's statement.

PN1087

MS BURKE: Yes.

PN1088

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What is the difference?

PN1089

MS BURKE: Well, the difference is that Mr Constable does not say, as Mr Rees suggests he says, that employees working in the clubs industry only work on weekends due to penalty rates. That is absolutely not what Mr Constable says. He says at 21 that based on his experience in the industry, ie, as an employer - which Mr Rees is not - "and on my experience as having worked weekend shifts," ie, having done it himself - and again Mr Rees may work weekend shifts but, if he does, he certainly hasn't put that in his statement.

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN1090

That's the basis for his evidence and that is quite different to what Mr Rees says which is that, "I've spoken to hundreds of unnamed employees working in the clubs industry," and on that basis has formed a view about the key motivations for employees in the clubs industry working on weekends. It's simply total speculation and hearsay. There is absolutely no way to test the basis for this and I can't see how it can assist the Full Bench.

PN1091

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: In relation to the last sentence of paragraph 13, although it's somewhat ambiguous the witness appears to assert that that is based on his direct experience and that would be admitted. However, in respect to the objected to portions of paragraph 10, we consider that is of a different character. It is hearsay and untestable evidence about the motivations of employees to work weekend work which is, we consider, a critical issue in the proceedings. Accordingly, that objection is upheld and that part of paragraph 10 will not be admitted.

PN1092

MS BURKE: Thank you, your Honour. Paragraphs 15, 16 and 17 are objected to on the same basis as earlier paragraphs and I expect the same ruling will apply. I withdraw the objections to paragraphs 24 and 25.

PN1093

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. That's 15 to - what was it, 17, will be admitted.

PN1094

MS BURKE: 15, 16 and 17.

PN1095

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Is that all the objections?

PN1096

MS BURKE: It is, your Honour.

PN1097

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Rees, can you see us now?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN1098

All right. Mr Dixon, can you proceed where you left off.

PN1099

MR DIXON: If the Commission pleases.

PN1100

Mr Rees, before we lost contact with you, I had asked you to identify your witness statement of 21 October 2017. You still have that witness statement in front of you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN1101

Do you affirm that the contents of that witness statement is true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN1102

I tender the statement, if the Commission pleases.

PN1103

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The statement of Gwyn Rees, dated 21 October 2017, will be marked exhibit 9.

PN1104

MR DIXON: I should have clarified and I apologise, subject to the rulings that the Commission has made.

PN1105

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

EXHIBIT #9 WITNESS STATEMENT OF GWYN REES DATED 21/10/2017

PN1106

MR DIXON: Secondly, Mr Rees, you made a statement for the purposes of these proceedings, did you, on 7 June, signed on 8 June 2018, consisting of some 27 paragraphs? Is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1107

Do you have a copy of that statement with you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN1108

Accept for the moment that certain parts of that statement have been ruled not to go into evidence, and accepting that, do you say that the contents of that supplementary statement signed on 8 June 2018 are to the best of your knowledge true and correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1109

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The supplementary statement of Gwyn Rees, dated 7 June 2018, subject to the earlier ruling on admissibility, will be marked exhibit 10.

EXHIBIT #10 SUPPLEMENTARY WITNESS STATEMENT TO GWYN REES DATED 07/06/2018

PN1110

MR DIXON: Mr Rees, the Full Bench has given leave to allow you to explain in some greater detail some of the evidence that you have given. May I draw your attention in the first instance to paragraph 19 of your first statement, which is now exhibit 9; the statement of 21 October?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1111

Do you see that paragraph that starts, "This infrastructure"?‑‑‑"Is very expensive to operate and maintain."

PN1112

Yes, okay?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN1113

Now, can you identify for the Full Bench the basis upon which you give the evidence in that paragraph?‑‑‑Yes. My knowledge and experience.

PN1114

Have you obtained any materials or documents in relation to the underpinning - or the evidence you give in the third sentence?‑‑‑Yes, I have. That information is accessed via venue. The local energy provider, ActewAGL, provides a portal on their web site - or certainly did that in 2015. You know, any business in the ACT is able to access that portal. When they go into that portal, they are able to extract their water usage for, you know, a previous 10‑year period. The details that I provided in relation to Ainslie Oval is extracted from that data, so they are real bills, they are real usage charges for that water.

PN1115

We may struggle a little bit, but are you able to identify the document you have described in any of the material you have with you at the moment?‑‑‑Yes. The document that was provided was at paragraph 19. There was an Excel spreadsheet provided which details all the dates, the usage, the charges against a particular bill and provides a chart demonstrating water usage for Ainslie Oval as well as, you know, the increase in the charges over a 10‑year period.

PN1116

The document you have just referred to in front of you, Mr Rees, what is the heading to that document?‑‑‑"Ainslie Oval water rates".

PN1117

Does it contain charts?‑‑‑Correct, yes. It does, yes.

PN1118

May I hand a copy of the document, if the Commission pleases, to the bench.

PN1119

Does the document you have in front of you, Mr Rees - what is the first date for water rates for that Ainslie Oval?‑‑‑It's 17/02/2004.

PN1120

The last?‑‑‑19/02/2015.

PN1121

Do you have in front of you a chart that charts water costs and water usage in two colours?‑‑‑Yes, I do; water cost in red and water usage in blue.

PN1122

Does the document you have also contain another analysis showing the trends over the period 1 February 2004 to 1 February 2015?‑‑‑Yes, it does. That's correct.

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN1123

Would you confirm is this the document that has been accessed from the data provided that you earlier identified?‑‑‑Yes, that is correct.

PN1124

I seek to tender the document, if the Commission pleases.

PN1125

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. The document entitled "Ainslie Oval water rates" will be marked exhibit 11.

EXHIBIT #11 AINSLIE OVAL WATER RATES

PN1126

MR DIXON: Can I then ask you to turn to paragraph 24 of your first statement of 21 October, exhibit 9?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1127

Would you please state for the Commission the basis upon which you give that evidence?‑‑‑The basis of - I mean, over time, particularly over the last 10 years, there has been a reduction in gaming revenue quite significantly in the ACT and that trend has continued. The ACT has a harder regulatory landscape than our neighbours in New South Wales, but over that time costs have also increased quite significantly, particularly as it relates to infrastructure. There are clubs like the Southern Cross Club that have made decisions to relinquish costly infrastructure and concentrate on, you know, less club venues.

PN1128

Can you tell the Commission what is the basis of your evidence in relation to what you have just said and what you say in paragraph - - -?‑‑‑Okay, I - - -

PN1129

Sorry, Mr Rees - - -?‑‑‑Certainly.

PN1130

Mr Rees, just bear with me, please. Can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN1131

Can you just tell the Commission the basis of the evidence you have given in relation to the Canberra Southern Cross Club which you have spoken about in paragraph 24 and orally a moment ago?‑‑‑My knowledge and experience and discussions with the club directly.

PN1132

When did that occur?‑‑‑In the last couple of years.

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN1133

What were you informed about the facilities that were used or not used thereafter?‑‑‑Certainly. With regard to the Pitch 'n' Putt facility, the facility was costly to maintain and certainly the costs that were coming from - or revenue coming from memberships weren't enough for the Southern Cross Club to continue looking after that facility, so they closed the facility.

PN1134

In relation to gaming revenue, what is the basis of your evidence for the lower gaming revenues and also the trend that you referred to a moment ago?‑‑‑Certainly. Over time every year the Gambling and Racing Commission provides data for clubs and provides a total gaming revenue figure. That is easily accessible, publicly available information and demonstrates the trend in a reduction gaming revenue over the past 10 years.

PN1135

Could I then ask you, please, to turn to paragraph 40 of that same statement. Will you just read that for yourself?‑‑‑Yes, I have read the statement.

PN1136

Would you tell the Commission what is the basis of providing you with knowledge about how clubs regard other hospitality outlets in the ACT?‑‑‑Certainly. Again it's a basis of knowledge and experience, having worked in the hospitality industry for a long time. Also, seeing the way clubs in recent years are reinventing themselves to compete with hospitality businesses. You know, the traditional formats of how a club might operate have been evolving and it's very obvious through marketing materials in particular about seeing, you know, the broader hospitality industry as competitors.

PN1137

When you say "reinventing themselves", can you be more specific about what you mean by that phrase?‑‑‑By way of example, two recent renovations and a new greenfields site with clubs in the ACT. One club has put a bar on the exterior of the buildings. I guess that's the best way to describe it. It operates on a separate bar licence, so it is separate to the club, enabling easier access for patrons to come and utilise the bar facility without entering into the broader bar. Other clubs like the - - -

PN1138

Sorry, Mr Rees, to interrupt you. Can you identify the club you have just referred to?‑‑‑The Gungahlin Club, which is part of the Eastlake Group.

PN1139

Thank you. You were going on to talk about other clubs in the context of my question about reinventing themselves?‑‑‑Sure. Another renovation; the Vikings Group has also undertaken an extensive renovation and again you can see in the way that they, you know, market their restaurant and bar areas, it's a significant shift on how they would have, you know, offered those facilities previously. You know, another example is the renovation - - -

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN1140

Sorry, when you say a marked shift, what in fact to your knowledge occurred within that shift?‑‑‑Sure. I mean, by way of example, you see things in the way that they name the restaurants. Off the top of my head, you know, it's a double name. Often you'll see restaurants being named these days, you know, things like Tongue & Groove or, you know, Basil - I can't think of the full name of the Vikings Group restaurant, the Basil and something, off the top of my head. You are seeing a shift in the way they market their actual internal restaurants and bars to almost appear, you know, separate to the total club offer.

PN1141

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Have you finished with that paragraph, Mr Dixon?

PN1142

MR DIXON: Yes, thank you.

PN1143

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Does that evidence really support what that paragraph says?

PN1144

MR DIXON: Yes, your Honour, in this sense: because they are reinventing themselves, the purpose of reinventing themselves is obviously to attract - - -

PN1145

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That at best could be an inference drawn from what a few clubs have done. The statement is that "most clubs" - that is a large majority - - -

PN1146

MR DIXON: Yes.

PN1147

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: - - - "regard" - that is, they consider or think - - -

PN1148

MR DIXON: That evidence would not go so far as most clubs, your Honour, and that can be struck out, in my respectful submission. There are at least some clubs in the ACT that satisfy that requirement on the evidence that is given.

PN1149

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Burke, if we change that to "some clubs", would that be supported by the evidence?

PN1150

MS BURKE: No, your Honour. The fact that some clubs have used marketing to change the names of restaurants in an attempt to - the inference is drawn that that is done to attract patrons, bearing in mind this evidence has been given in support of an application to cut penalty rates on the basis of real competition. It doesn't come anywhere near making out that paragraph.

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN1151

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, I don't think the evidence supports the sentiment expressed, so paragraph 40 will be struck out.

PN1152

MR DIXON: If the Commission pleases. Your Honour, may we have leave to deal with just one other matter which is not dealt with in either statement, in respect of an issue that arises from some of the evidence given by the parties objecting. I just wish to ask Mr Rees some questions about the E‑news publication that ClubsACT puts out and tender a document in relation to it which has been provided to our learned friends.

PN1153

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any objection to that course?

PN1154

MS BURKE: No, your Honour.

PN1155

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Go ahead.

PN1156

MR DIXON: Thank you, if your Honour pleases.

PN1157

Mr Rees, does ClubsACT produce information material described as ClubsACT E-news?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1158

How regularly does the E‑news publication get put out to members?‑‑‑There is at least one a month.

PN1159

Are you able to say whether such a publication was distributed to ACT Club members in April of 2017?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1160

Do you have to hand a copy of the document that was published as ClubsACT E‑news April 2017?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN1161

Would you mind holding it up and identify from whom it comes, and what is the heading of the document you've got?‑‑‑The heading of the document reads "Modern award review Clubs Australia (Industrial)". It is signed by Anthony Ball, chief executive officer of Clubs Australia.

PN1162

Was it sent to you by anyone?‑‑‑Yes, it was sent to me by Clubs Australia and then shared with the ClubsACT membership.

*** GWYN REES XN MR DIXON

PN1163

May I hand a copy of the E‑news April 2017 up to the Commission. Thank you. May I tender the document.

PN1164

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The document headed "ClubsACT modern award review Clubs Australia (Industrial)" will be marked exhibit 12.

EXHIBIT #12 E-NEWS APRIL 2017 - CLUBSACT MODERN AWARD REVIEW CLUBS AUSTRALIA (INDUSTRIAL)

PN1165

THE WITNESS: We have lost vision again.

PN1166

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Just hold on a second. We just have to disconnect and reconnect the video‑link, Mr Rees.

PN1167

MR DIXON: That is the evidence‑in‑chief, if the Commission pleases.

PN1168

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We will just wait until this video problem is fixed.

PN1169

MS BURKE: I will just get set up.

PN1170

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN1171

Can you see us now, Mr Rees?‑‑‑I can, yes. Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BURKE [10.55 AM]

PN1172

MS BURKE: Thank you, Mr Rees. You can see and hear me all right here?‑‑‑I can. Thank you.

PN1173

Can I just ask what documents you have got there in front of you?‑‑‑I have got the statements that I provided, so the two affidavits as discussed, and documents that have been requested by you.

PN1174

Have you got the annexures to your statements?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN1175

Okay. Is that all?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1176

Thank you. I want to start by asking you some questions about something you have said in your supplementary statement, which is the second one. You have got that there?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN1177

Can you have a look, please, at paragraph 23?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1178

In paragraphs 23 to 25, you're commenting on an objection made by the Austrian Australian Club to this application?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1179

The Austrian Australian Club is a member of ClubsACT, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes, they are.

PN1180

What you have said in paragraph 25 is that you have noted the objection has been signed by the acting president, but you don't know whether the board of the club approved this objection being made?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1181

You're not suggesting, are you, that this objection that was made was unauthorised?‑‑‑It was simply an observation.

PN1182

Well, it's an observation that you don't know whether the objection was authorised by the board?‑‑‑Again, it's an observation based on the fact that I hadn't received any objections from clubs, in any conversation that we've had with members, with regard to this issue.

PN1183

Have you spoken to the Austrian Australian Club about this issue?‑‑‑Via email correspondence and the E‑news - I guess that would be correspondence to them, yes.

PN1184

Sorry, I mean - - -?‑‑‑They haven't raised the issue with me directly.

PN1185

You haven't asked them if this objection was authorised or not by the board?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN1186

You have just noted that it might not have been?‑‑‑Yes. I've made that observation, yes.

PN1187

But you don't have any basis to suggest, do you, that it was unauthorised?‑‑‑I believe I've answered that.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1188

I don't think you have, Mr Rees. I would like you to answer it. You don't have any basis to tell this Commission that this objection was not authorised by the board?‑‑‑Again, it's an observation, so - I think I've answered that.

PN1189

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Rees, you don't know whether it was authorised or not. Is that the position?‑‑‑I don't. That's right. That is the position.

PN1190

MS BURKE: Thank you. You can put that to one side for a while, Mr Rees. You worked for ClubsACT since about 2012, is it?‑‑‑Correct.

PN1191

Before that you worked for the Australian Hotels Association?‑‑‑Correct.

PN1192

Sorry, for about how long? About two and a half years, was it?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN1193

Were you involved in either capacity in the modernisation of awards?‑‑‑Again that predates me, so, no.

PN1194

All right. You're aware, aren't you, that since at least 2008 - and tell me if you're not, of course - Clubs Australia have maintained that the clubs industry should be covered by its own separate modern award?‑‑‑The first discussion that I had with Clubs Australia was when we made the initial application with regard to the penalty rates. That was my first discussion.

PN1195

You're talking about the 2014 application - - -?‑‑‑Correct.

PN1196

- - - to reduce penalty rates in the Clubs Award?‑‑‑To look at the Clubs Award, yes, and look at achieving parity with the other hospitality businesses, yes.

PN1197

But before that you're not aware that clubs have always maintained that the industry should be covered by a separate award?‑‑‑It predates my involvement in these issues, yes.

PN1198

I understand it predates your involvement. I'm just asking about your knowledge?‑‑‑My knowledge goes to my first involvement in 2014 as discussed, yes.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1199

All right. I understand. You were involved in the penalty rates case. That's right, isn't it?‑‑‑There was an original application made - or an affidavit previously back then, if I recall correctly.

PN1200

You prepared and filed a statement in that matter?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN1201

In that application, Clubs Australia maintained the position that clubs should be covered by their own and a separate modern award. That's right, isn't it?‑‑‑I'm not sure. I can't recall.

PN1202

Mr Rees, you filed a statement in that application and you can't recall what the application was about?‑‑‑I've been looking at a lot of statements, sorry. I can't recall, but I think at the time - no, sorry. My recollection, sorry, is that, yes, what we were trying to achieve was parity with the other awards so, yes, that was a preservation of the Clubs Award as it stands.

PN1203

Part of the reason why you have done that - by "you" of course I mean ClubsACT have done that as a member of Clubs Australia, is that Clubs Australia has maintained that there are significant differences between clubs and other enterprises. That's right, isn't it?‑‑‑Can you pose that question again, please.

PN1204

I'll give you some examples. For example, clubs are not for profit organisations. That's right, isn't it?‑‑‑They are. That's right.

PN1205

Pubs, restaurants, cafes, hotels are not?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN1206

Perhaps out of fairness I'll ask you to look at paragraphs 15, 17 and 18 of your first statement. Starting at paragraph 15, what you say there is, "Many clubs in the ACT invest considerably in supporting local communities." You talk about the donations that clubs have given. That's distinct from what pubs, restaurants and hotels do, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes, it is. In terms of some of the services, yes.

PN1207

At paragraph 17, you talk about how the clubs in the ACT operate and maintain the vast majority of the ACT sport and recreational infrastructure. Pubs, restaurants and hotels don't do that, do they?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN1208

You would agree, wouldn't you, that clubs are established on the basis of interest mutuality?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1209

Clubs have a high number of volunteers?‑‑‑Clubs mobilise volunteers, yes.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1210

Neither of those factors are in place for restaurants, hotels, bars, et cetera?‑‑‑There may be some hospitality businesses that take a different approach on their work with community groups. I don't think that's an entirely true statement. It may apply to some.

PN1211

I'm asking just about volunteers?‑‑‑Some pubs, some hospitality businesses do involve themselves with or avail themselves to community groups, so they may have volunteers that they activate via that involvement.

PN1212

Do you personally know of any in Canberra?‑‑‑Do I personally know?

PN1213

Yes?‑‑‑Not off the top of my head, no.

PN1214

No restaurant, bar, hotel is based on the principle of mutuality for tax purposes. That's right, isn't it?‑‑‑That is right.

PN1215

Only members and bona fide visitors can access clubs, and their facilities. That's correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1216

Of course by contrast pubs, restaurants, et cetera are open to the general public?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1217

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Rees, in the ACT do hotels have access to gaming machines?‑‑‑In the ACT a small number of hotels have access to a different class of machine; a B‑class machine. However, there are only five venues that operate them and they operate between about five, 10 each, so 50 machines.

PN1218

What is the reason why they have access to those and nobody else does?‑‑‑Well, there were more than that a few years ago, but there has been a long‑standing model in the ACT called the community club gaming model, so only clubs in the ACT have operated the C‑class, but there were a limited number of E‑class made available to some hotels.

PN1219

Thank you.

PN1220

MS BURKE: I'll address this in more detail later, but can I just ask one question arising out of that. I'm sorry, what did you call it, Mr Rees, the arrangement that clubs have with regard to gaming machines?‑‑‑Community club gaming model.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1221

Is that something that your organisation has advocated for with government?‑‑‑It's long‑standing and again predates my history with the organisation, but goes back some 25 years or more.

PN1222

Is it something that your organisation is involved in managing or maintaining?‑‑‑We continue to advocate for it, yes.

PN1223

All right. You have given some evidence about the work done by bar staff in clubs and the work done by bar staff in restaurants, but you would admit of course that there are positions in clubs other than hospitality positions?‑‑‑No. Generally the positions that are available in clubs are very similar to those in hospitality, you know, with the exception of some positions like horticulture, greens maintenance at a golf course, et cetera.

PN1224

Let's go through those. So bingo callers; you don't have bingo callers in restaurants, do you?‑‑‑There is a bar in the ACT called Hopscotch that runs a bingo event.

PN1225

That bar is an affiliate of your organisation, isn't it?‑‑‑It is indeed.

PN1226

Is that the only one?‑‑‑It's the only one that I'm aware of. Young & Frisky actually is another bar that hosts bingo.

PN1227

I think I might just draw a veil over that. In relation to maintenance - - -

PN1228

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: This is a hotel in the city which has drag queen bingo, so I'm told.

PN1229

MS BURKE: Maintenance and horticultural employees, Mr Rees, they don't do any hospitality work, do they?‑‑‑I would think in my experience in the ACT there wouldn't be any crossover that may apply differently in other jurisdictions.

PN1230

You don't know though, do you, in respect of other jurisdictions?‑‑‑I don't.

PN1231

All right?‑‑‑That's right.

PN1232

Fitness instructors - - -?‑‑‑My knowledge is - - -

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1233

Sorry, I interrupted you?‑‑‑Sorry? Your question again?

PN1234

Yes. Fitness instructors in clubs, they don't do any hospitality work, do they?‑‑‑Fitness instructors again in the ACT would be limited to those clubs that have it, yes, and I wouldn't imagine there is crossover.

PN1235

Professional golfers?‑‑‑Once again, yes, they would be, you know, a professional golfer.

PN1236

Do you know anything about the training required to become a professional golfer in the clubs sector?‑‑‑No, I do not.

PN1237

All right. You know there is no training component that relates to hospitality?‑‑‑Sorry, I missed that.

PN1238

I will withdraw it. Child care workers in clubs, they don't do any hospitality work, do they?‑‑‑Again, there might be a different application in other states. Locally there would be again limited venues that would offer child care services as part of a club, so I can't comment on that.

PN1239

Right, but my question and my questions, just so you're aware, are really only relevant to the ACT because that is the organisation - the area that you're giving evidence about?‑‑‑Yes, true.

PN1240

Right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1241

I take it there are no surf lifesaving clubs in Canberra?‑‑‑No.

PN1242

The workforce for ClubsACT, it has got a very high percentage of casual employees, doesn't it?‑‑‑The percentage of casual employees is outlined in the KPMG National Clubs Census, so that percentage is available there.

PN1243

Yes. Out of fairness, I will just take you to that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1244

I think you have got that extracted, don't you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1245

Members of the Commission, that is exhibit NM1 to Mr Murray's statement.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1246

Do you have that there, Mr Rees?‑‑‑I do.

PN1247

Good. Can I ask you, please, to look at page 22?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1248

If you see the pie chart there in the first column, there is 66 per cent of the club industry workforce are casual employees?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN1249

Sorry, you just need to say yes or no for the transcript?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1250

Thank you. 32 per cent are permanent employees?‑‑‑Yes, that's - 25 plus - sorry, which part are we looking at?

PN1251

Sorry?‑‑‑Are we looking at the chart?

PN1252

I'm adding together full‑time and part‑time; 25 and 7?‑‑‑Sure. I get 32.

PN1253

Yes. Do you know what the proportions are between casual and permanent employees in the hospitality sector?‑‑‑I don't have a direct reference for that, no, sorry.

PN1254

Do you know - or, in fairness, I'll show you - looking now at page 21 of the census, the value of volunteer labour for Canberra clubs in 2015?‑‑‑Can you direct me to where - - -

PN1255

I can. Page 21, the first column. There are three dot points and it's the third dot point, "The value of volunteer labour amounts to $4.8 million"?‑‑‑Yes. I've read the statement, yes.

PN1256

Do you know what the value of volunteer labour is likely to be in pubs, restaurants and hotels, Mr Rees?‑‑‑I would imagine it's not as significant as that of a club.

PN1257

Might it be zero?‑‑‑I couldn't give that answer.

PN1258

All right. Now, as part of your job - are you familiar with the Clubs Award? The modern award?‑‑‑Yes, I am.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1259

Do you have a copy of it there?‑‑‑I do.

PN1260

All right?‑‑‑Sorry, I have a copy of the merged option award, not separately the Clubs Award.

PN1261

That's all right. Are you familiar or do you have any dealings with the Hospitality Award?‑‑‑I have previously had dealings with the Hospitality Award in my previous role.

PN1262

Working for the AHA?‑‑‑Correct.

PN1263

All right. What about the Restaurants Award? Do you work with that at all?‑‑‑The Restaurants Award? Again, in a limited capacity when I was with the Australian Hotels Association.

PN1264

I see. I take it you're familiar with the proposed merged award?‑‑‑Yes, I am familiar with it.

PN1265

You understand this application is to abolish the Clubs Award and amend the Hospitality Award to add club‑specific provisions in?‑‑‑(No audible reply).

PN1266

It's the case, isn't it, that almost all club‑specific provisions will be maintained? In fairness, I'll take you through those?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1267

The club managers provisions in the Clubs Award will be the same in the proposed amended award?‑‑‑Yes. My understanding is the provisions are transferred across to the merged award.

PN1268

The maintenance and horticultural employee provisions will be the same in the proposed amended award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1269

That includes the penalty rates payable to those employees?‑‑‑Can you direct me to where I'm looking with regard to penalty rates?

PN1270

Yes, I can. Just give me a moment. Yes, clause 32.1. That's on page 46 of the proposed amalgamated award?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1271

I hope your copy is in colour, Mr Rees?‑‑‑Yes. It is, yes.

PN1272

So if it's green, that means the provision has been picked up from the Clubs Award and dropped into the proposed amended award without alteration?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1273

You accept that the penalty rates for maintenance and horticultural employees are not sought to be altered in this application?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN1274

All right. The ordinary hours provisions, they are unchanged, as well. I can take you to that; that's at clause 29.1?‑‑‑21.1, sorry?

PN1275

29.1?‑‑‑29, yes.

PN1276

You can see there, there are separate ordinary hours provisions for hospitality employees and clubs employees?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1277

Clause 29.4 deals with make‑up time. That's a bit easier to follow, because there is an "Other than clubs" heading and then there is a "Clubs" heading, so separate provisions?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1278

At clause 31.6, there are different provisions for breaks, aren't there?‑‑‑Yes. See, again you're referring to the headings other than clubs and clubs?

PN1279

Yes, sorry. Clause 31 deals with breaks. Right under the heading is "Other than clubs"?‑‑‑Then at 31 point - - -

PN1280

Yes, 31.1 to 31.5 is breaks for hospitality workers; 31.6 to 31.12 is breaks for clubs workers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1281

So in fact almost every club‑specific provision is maintained in the proposed amalgamated award except for weekend penalty rates for permanent workers. That's right, isn't it?‑‑‑Sorry, can you state the question again.

PN1282

Yes, I can. The club‑specific provisions, those ones that I've just taken to for club managers, maintenance and horticultural employees, ordinary hours, make‑up time and breaks, they are preserved in the proposed amended award?‑‑‑Yes, those provisions were preserved.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1283

The only club‑specific provision that you are not seeking to preserve are weekend penalty rates - weekend and public holiday rates, I'm sorry, for permanent, ie, non‑casual, employees?‑‑‑So when you read the award, casual employees' rates are the same.

PN1284

Yes?‑‑‑Full‑time and part‑time are subject to transitional arrangements up to 1 July 2019.

PN1285

Yes. So that is what has changed - sought to be changed?‑‑‑That's what has changed, yes.

PN1286

Now, you fully support this application, don't you?‑‑‑I support, yes, Clubs Australia Industrial's application, yes.

PN1287

Is your support contingent on maintaining these club‑specific provisions in the proposed amalgamated award?‑‑‑Again, I couldn't comment on that. I haven't spoken to that in detail.

PN1288

Well, Mr Rees, I'm asking you to. You said you fully support this application. I'm asking you if your support for this application is contingent on these club‑specific provisions remaining in place?‑‑‑I think it's important that the club‑specific conditions are maintained.

PN1289

Yes. If Clubs Australia sought to amalgamate the awards but didn't preserve those differences, you wouldn't support the application, would you?‑‑‑That's another conversation. It's not a conversation that has been had - - -

PN1290

I'm not asking if you have had a conversation about it. I'm asking you to tell the Commission now that if Clubs Australia were making an application to simply merge - to abolish the Clubs Award and have the Hospitality Award cover clubs employees and employers, you would not support that course?‑‑‑Again, I'd have to weigh up, you know, the merits of that application. It's not really dealing with what I have in front of me.

PN1291

You have said just now though that you think it's important to maintain club‑specific provisions in the award?‑‑‑I do. I do think it's important.

PN1292

So if the application was made that wouldn't maintain those, you would not support that?‑‑‑Well, you're talking about an entirely different application.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1293

I accept that?‑‑‑I couldn't comment to say - I would have to go back and have that discussion with my board and my members.

PN1294

Mr Rees, you know that the Fair Work Commission is not bound by the terms of the application by Clubs Australia?‑‑‑Can you reframe the question. I don't understand the context.

PN1295

Yes. The Commission is not required to either amend the award in the terms sought by Clubs Australia or do nothing. It can do a range of things?‑‑‑Okay. I understand.

PN1296

Yes. For example, the Commission could simply abolish the Clubs Award and amend the coverage of the Hospitality Award to include clubs?‑‑‑Okay.

PN1297

Would that be a desirable outcome from the point of view of your members?‑‑‑Again, it's a conversation that would need to be had with my board and my members more generally.

PN1298

Mr Rees, you're the chief executive of the Licensed Clubs Association of the ACT. You have come along and you're giving evidence today that your members support this application. Presumably you have spoken to them about it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1299

So I'm asking you on the basis of those conversations and on the basis of your knowledge of what your members want - which is the subject of your evidence more broadly - whether abolishing the Clubs Award and simply amending the coverage of the Hospitality Award to cover clubs would be a desirable outcome from the point of view of your members?‑‑‑I go back to my previous statement that I think it's important that elements of the Clubs Award are preserved and that's what I have in front of me, and support Clubs Australia Industrial's application with regard to that.

PN1300

All right. Your evidence is that clubs compete with restaurants and cafes in Canberra?‑‑‑My evidence is that those formats exist, yes, in clubs, and they see other hospitality businesses as competitors, yes.

PN1301

But you really do refer specifically to restaurants and cafes. I'll ask you to look at paragraph 33 of your statement. This is where you say the ACT is reputed to have the highest number of restaurants per capita in Australia?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1302

If I can ask you - and you don't need to read them aloud, but looking at paragraphs 35 to 39 of your statement, you're referring there to restaurants, cafes and bars again and the Canberra casino?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1303

You know, don't you, that restaurants have been able to pay certain of their casual staff lower Sunday penalty rates since 2014? By lower, I mean lower than is currently payable under the Clubs Award and the Hospitality Award?‑‑‑Yes. There is a difference between the Restaurant Award and the Clubs Award.

PN1304

For completeness, that's for introductory levels, levels 1 and 2 for casuals on Sundays?‑‑‑I don't know the specifics without looking directly at the Restaurant Award, but I understand there are differences between the two awards, yes.

PN1305

Do you understand that that has been in place since 2014 - and the bench may or may not be in a position to correct me about the transition arrangements, but I think that regime commenced in 2014?‑‑‑(No audible reply).

PN1306

Sorry, Mr Rees, my question was whether you were aware of that?‑‑‑I was just looking at that date.

PN1307

What are you looking at there?‑‑‑Sorry, we were talking about - are you talking about the transitional rates around the actual penalty rates? Is that what you were discussing?

PN1308

No. I'm sorry, I might have put the - - -?‑‑‑Can you reframe?

PN1309

Yes. I was talking about the cuts to penalty rates that were made for restaurant employees in 2014, so not part of - - -?‑‑‑Again it kind of predates my time, so the exact cuts, I'm not aware of what those were in 2014.

PN1310

Mr Rees, didn't you start working at ClubsACT in 2012?‑‑‑Yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm specifically looking at the Restaurant Award.

PN1311

Right. Certainly there has been no application by Clubs Australia that you know of to merge the Clubs Award into the Restaurants Award?‑‑‑The original application - I guess if we're going back to that - was about seeking parity. Following that, the Fair Work Commission provided the option to merge the awards. That's my understanding.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1312

Before the Fair Work Commission provided that option, that was not something your organisation had considered?‑‑‑Before that, yes, that wasn't the discussion. The discussion with Clubs Australia was the initial application they made.

PN1313

All right. Now, you have given some evidence that in your view a club that contracts out to a restaurant - sorry, specifically contracts out some or all of their food and beverage offerings to restaurants - - -?‑‑‑Sure.

PN1314

And I'm looking at paragraph 49 of your statement. Those clubs are covered by the Restaurants Award?‑‑‑Sorry, can you ask that question again.

PN1315

Yes, I can. In paragraph 49 of your statement you say:

PN1316

Some clubs in the ACT contract out some or all of their food and beverage offerings to restaurant chains covered by the Restaurants Award.

PN1317

Then you give some examples?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1318

Now, you're aware, aren't you, that United Voice sought copies of those contractual arrangements that you referred to by way of example in your statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1319

No documents were produced?‑‑‑This is a knowledge and experience comment, and it comes from discussions directly with clubs; club management.

PN1320

I see. So this evidence that restaurant chains operating in clubs are covered by the Restaurants Award, this comes from your knowledge and experience?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN1321

Do you give advice to that effect to your members when asked?‑‑‑I need you to be specific about the question that you're asking. In what way and what about? What advice would I be providing?

PN1322

At paragraph 4 of your statement, you say "In my role as Chief Executive of ClubsACT, my duties include"?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1323

Then over the page, subparagraph (h), "providing workplace relations advice to member clubs including in relation to industrial awards and instruments"?‑‑‑So, in a position where there would be a contracted operator within the venue, they wouldn't be accessing ClubsACT's workplace relations services or advice.

PN1324

Whose services would they be accessing?‑‑‑That would be a matter for the contractor.

PN1325

But you've said that your evidence that restaurants operating in clubs are covered by the Restaurant's Award comes from your conversations with clubs' operators?‑‑‑It comes from discussing that with club management, yes.

PN1326

Club management?‑‑‑Yes, so if they have a contractor working within a club, a contractor is in essence, separate to the club entity. They have a commercial arrangement, normally rent, but they're not accessing ClubsACT, they are a separate contractor.

PN1327

The club managers aren't seeking advice from your organisation about whether the Restaurant's Award applies?‑‑‑The club wouldn't be seeking advice on behalf of the contractor. It's deal with differently.

PN1328

Sorry, Mr Rees, I'm asking if they're seeking it on their own behalf?‑‑‑Can you ask the question again? I'm not sure I properly understand.

PN1329

Has any club manager in the ACT asked you or your organisation which award applies to a restaurant operating on my premises?‑‑‑Again, there's a commercial arrangement with the contractor in a club.

PN1330

No, no, no, my question - Mr Rees, Mr Rees. My question is whether anyone has asked you that?‑‑‑I've had one discussion with a club in recent times.

PN1331

Which club is that?‑‑‑The Austrian Club.

PN1332

Not the Southern Cross Club?‑‑‑Not the Southern Cross Club.

PN1333

Not the Canberra Highland Society and Burns Club?‑‑‑No, I haven't had that conversation with them, no.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1334

You haven't had that conversation with them, so what is the basis for your evidence here that these clubs are contracting out to restaurant chains covered by the Restaurant's Award?‑‑‑When you have a contractor that operates under a restaurant licence within a club, they would be subject to the Restaurant Award.

PN1335

Mr Rees, can I ask you to look at the Clubs proposed Amalgamated Award that you have there?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1336

Can you turn to clause 4.1 please? Now I understand you don't have a copy of the Club's Award as it currently stands with you, is that right?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN1337

All right, I'm going to read you clause 4.1 of the Club's Awards. What that says is:

PN1338

This award covers employers of employees engaged in the performance of all or any work in connection with or for clubs registered or recognised under State, Territory or Commonwealth legislation and their employees in the classifications within schedule C, classifications definitions to the exclusion of any other modern award.

PN1339

Do you accept that that's what it says?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1340

Mr Rees, doesn't that mean that the Club's Award would apply to restaurant's operating in a club?‑‑‑I understand - - -

PN1341

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, stop. You've asked that question without the witness having the benefit of the text in front of him.

PN1342

MS BURKE: That's right, your Honour, but the text - - -

PN1343

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That's a bit unfair, isn't it?

PN1344

MS BURKE: The text in 4.1 of the proposed amended award is not identical, but it is in substance the same. He's got a version of it.

PN1345

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Do you have any objection, Mr Dixon?

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1346

MR DIXON: Your Honour, it doesn't - the ultimate question about whether which award applies, is going to be determined on the precise nature of the entity and the interpretation. It's a matter which we are preparing a note for the Commission. I'm not sure the degree to which these questions can ultimately assist you in that regard. It may have an understanding, but I don't think about the witness having - I'm hesitating because in some cases, one might ask him to hop out, but the full factual position in a broader context in which the question was put. The question seems to have been put on a very broad basis and it's factually driven in every case as to what the nature of the operator is and what the position is and services that that operator provides.

PN1347

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Burke, I mean it may be reasonable to ask what advice is given to contractors or what contractors actually do, but I'm not sure it's useful to get this witness' opinion about what the correct interpretation of the clause.

PN1348

MS BURKE: No, your Honour, the point that I'll make in submissions, I'm got a basis for that now. I can move on.

PN1349

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Right, thank you.

PN1350

MS BURKE: Mr Rees do you still have your supplementary statement to hand there?‑‑‑Yes I do.

PN1351

I just want to ask you about something you've said in paragraph 13. In the third sentence, what you say there is "In my view, good quality employees are not attracted or retained by penalty rates, but by providing a good and safe working environment and flexibility". Is it your view Mr Rees, that good quality workers are workers who don't care about penalty rates?‑‑‑Can you - sorry, can you maybe reframe that question?

PN1352

I'm just puzzled about what is so amusing about this? Your evidence is, and I'm quoting "In my view, good quality employees are not attracted or retained by penalty rates, but by providing a good and safe working environment and flexibility". That's what you've said?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN1353

I'm asking you, if it's in your view good quality workers are workers who do not care about penalty rates?‑‑‑I think my view is as it's put there. My perception of employees applying for work and having work in places where I've had to interviews was, there generally isn't a discussion about penalty rates. What I'm being paid is a discussion, not about penalty rates. The basis of my knowledge is my experience around the hospitality industry and I think that the employers that I've worked for or people working for me, like a safe working environment, like flexibility and are attracted to the place that they work.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1354

People working for you get penalty rates, do they?‑‑‑My current role, no. In previous roles, yes.

PN1355

Not in your role at the Australian Hotels Association?‑‑‑In my role, no, we didn't have a casual employee. Salaried workers, working Monday to Friday.

PN1356

You've talked about your knowledge, but what you actually say here is, in my view. This is your opinion, isn't it?‑‑‑It is my view, yes.

PN1357

Good quality workers do not care about penalty rates?‑‑‑I'm saying that employees are not attracted or retained by penalty rates. There are other conditions and factors that make it attractive for an employee to work in a certain workplace.

PN1358

Penalty rates are irrelevant to somebody's decision to work in a club or in any environment that provides - - -?‑‑‑I believe I've answered that question.

PN1359

No, I'm still asking Mr Rees?‑‑‑

PN1360

MR DIXON: I think he's answered the question.

PN1361

WITNESS: I think employees are attracted and retained for a range of factors other than penalty rates.

PN1362

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is a relevant factor the amount of remuneration they would receive for the hours they're required to work?‑‑‑I think overall yes. I think people when they are applying for a role ask what they're going to be paid.

PN1363

If the role involves working on a weekend, that would inevitably involve penalty rates factoring into what they are going to be paid?‑‑‑I think that's a fair way to put the question, yes.

PN1364

MS BURKE: Your answers apply not just to an employee applying for a job, but staying in a job. That's right isn't it, Mr Rees?‑‑‑Again, I - - -

PN1365

And in fairness, I'm just looking at your statement where you talk about quality employees not being attracted or retained by penalty rates. The answers that you just gave to the Vice President, they apply to employees applying for jobs and staying in jobs?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1366

Thank you. I just want to ask you some more questions about money. You were taken by Mr Dixon to an excel spreadsheet showing increased water charges at the Ainslie Group. Have you got that there, I'm sorry?‑‑‑Yes, I do, yes.

PN1367

What I am not clear on, is whether you prepared this or not? This is exhibit 11?‑‑‑How this information was provided, as I started - - -

PN1368

No, no, no Mr Rees, did you prepare this spreadsheet?‑‑‑I was provided the data, so the raw numbers and the raw numbers were converted into a spreadsheet.

PN1369

Did you convert them into a spreadsheet?‑‑‑My wife did.

PN1370

Who provided you with the raw numbers?‑‑‑The Ainslie Club.

PN1371

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I thought you said before they came from some portal, or something?‑‑‑Correct, that is correct. So, the Ainslie has to access, they get a log in and a password. They go in to the actual site and they access that data and then that provided that to me and I put it into a spreadsheet, or had my wife do that.

PN1372

MS BURKE: In what form was the data given to you?‑‑‑Pretty much as it appears, if I recall. The dates, usage and the numbers.

PN1373

I wasn't clear, sorry. What format was it an excel file, was it some kind of data file?‑‑‑I believe it comes off as an excel file, yes. I'd have to - it's been a while; it's been 2015 since I saw the source of that data, but yes, I believe it comes off in an excel spreadsheet.

PN1374

Who did the charts then, the graphs?‑‑‑Yes, the conversion of the charts, yes, it was my wife.

PN1375

This project was done in 2015?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1376

It wasn't done for the purposes of this proceeding?‑‑‑No, it wasn't done for the purpose of this proceeding.

PN1377

There's no information in your statement that tells the Commission what the Ainslie Group's revenue was in that year?‑‑‑No, there isn't.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1378

So, there's no way - - -?‑‑‑Actually, can you refer me to where you are?

PN1379

Yes certainly, I'm sorry, paragraph 19 of your statement?‑‑‑That's the first statement?

PN1380

Yes?‑‑‑That paragraph - you're right. The paragraph does not deal with the revenue earned by the club.

PN1381

There's no way, reading your evidence to assess what $114,000 means. Whether it's big, whether it's small. It's just a number?‑‑‑You were provided financial statements, I believe, for the Ainslie Group. That could be ascertained from those documents. But I believe either one of those - it was either 2015 or the year after they had a financial loss which is evident in those statements. I believe the last financial year was a loss as well.

PN1382

Mr Rees, if I could ask you to just try and focus on my question and answer my question. My question was, whether there is anything in this statement that allows the Commission reading it to know whether $112,000 is a large or small proportion of the Ainslie Group's overall financial position?‑‑‑If we take 19 and have a look at paragraph 23.

PN1383

Yes, that refers to a different financial year, doesn't it?‑‑‑It is a different financial year, yes.

PN1384

Thank you. But looking at paragraph 23, it is the case that United Voice asked for the financial documents, the financial reports for three years, that being financial years ending in 30 June 2015, 2016 and 2017 and they were produced. You have a copy of the 2016 financial report there?‑‑‑Yes, I should do.

PN1385

I'm just handing copies of certain parts of that report to the Bench. I won't trouble you with the whole photoshoot?‑‑‑The 2016, was that correct?

PN1386

Yes, that's right. The financial report starts about half way through. I'll ask you to turn to page 18 of the financial report and that page is headed Financial Statement Ainslie Football and Social Club Ltd, Statement of Comprehensive Income for the year ended 30 September 2016?‑‑‑Hm-mm.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1387

Where you say in your statement at paragraph 23 that the Ainslie Football Club suffered an almost $1 million operating loss in that financial year, you're referring to the figure on that page which is $955,376. Is That what you mean there?‑‑‑Yes, I am.

PN1388

You can see there at the top that the Ainslie Group had revenue of $26 million that financial year?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1389

Then there's a bit of variety between each of the line items there. Some go up, some go down. Just turning the page please to page 19. This is the balance sheet as at 30 September 2016. Can I ask you to look at the fourth row? This is the net asset position of the Ainslie Group in that financial year is $32.2 million?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1390

Then over the page at page 21, the cash at the end of the year. Sorry, this is the Cash Flow Statement and the cash at the end of the year is $3.4 million. That's an increase from the previous financial year?‑‑‑Which line, sorry?

PN1391

I'm sorry, it's the last line. Cash at end of year $3,463,769?‑‑‑Slightly more, yes.

PN1392

At page 25, this is Note to Revenue. This sets out the gross gaming machine revenue for the three clubs in this group. You can see the Ainslie Football and Social Club had a slight drop in gaming machine revenue, but Gungahlin Lakes and Community Club had an increase and the Canberra City Bowling Club had a big drop?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1393

Does the Canberra City Bowling Club still have pokies?‑‑‑No, they don't. The club itself is no longer managed by the Ainslie Group.

PN1394

I see. Then over the page at page 26, this is Note for Income Tax. At the top there, result before income tax for 2016 - - -?‑‑‑Sorry, we're up to what page, sorry?

PN1395

I'm at page 26 of the Annual Report?‑‑‑Over, sorry, I was looking at - thank you, yes.

PN1396

The result before income tax is $955,376. That's your million dollar loss?‑‑‑Where are you looking?

PN1397

MS BURKE: Yes, the first line says Result Before Income Tax in the table?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1398

Then in brackets is the figure ($955,376)?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1399

I mean, looking down to the end of that part of the table, the income tax expense for the year is zero?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1400

Thank you. I tender this.

PN1401

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The document entitled Ainslie Group 2016 Annual Report will be marked exhibit 13.

EXHIBIT #13 AINSLIE GROUP 2016 ANNUAL REPORT

PN1402

MS BURKE: Mr Rees, your evidence that I think you repeated earlier, is that there's been a decrease in revenue for clubs in the ACT between 2011 and 2015?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1403

I'm referring here to your evidence at paragraph 21 of your statement?‑‑‑Just give a minute.

PN1404

Yes, certainly?‑‑‑Thank you. Yes, I'm familiar with 21.

PN1405

The basis for that evidence is the Club's census. Can I ask you to look at page 20 of the Club census please?‑‑‑Hang on. Yes.

PN1406

There's a table three on page 20 which is Changes and Industry Structure ACT?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1407

Is this what your evidence in paragraph 21 is based on?‑‑‑The census provides a break-down in numbers, so you can actually see, I think specifically - just give me a minute. If you look on page 20, the final paragraph under the heading Financial Viability of Clubs in the ACT.

PN1408

Yes?‑‑‑You'll see there's a correlation between those, my paragraph and the KPMG's census.

PN1409

Your evidence that clubs have generated less revenue from their operation in previous times in paragraph 21, is taken from that paragraph at the end of page 21?‑‑‑It is.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1410

Not from table three?‑‑‑It's taken from the statement at the end of that paragraph at the end, yes.

PN1411

Thank you. If you look at - page 20 has two columns. Look at the top of the right hand column?‑‑‑Go to page 20 again?

PN1412

Yes, still on page 20, so the second column?‑‑‑Starting with in addition?

PN1413

Yes, in addition. What that says is that results from the ACT are subject to a lower level of confidence compared to other jurisdictions as a result of the sample of clubs responding to the 2015 census survey instrument?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1414

In the middle paragraph in that column:

PN1415

The results of the 2015 census indicate that the financial viability of clubs in the ACT has decreased slightly since 2011. However, this is based on a small number of observations and therefore should be treated with caution.

PN1416

Do you agree with that?‑‑‑I mean that's KPMG's I guess, way of them pointing out what the threshold for any issue with their information. But I can tell you, of the 49 clubs that we have in the ACT, I believe from my recollection, over 30 participated. So, those clubs that didn't participate tendered to be small clubs. What the KPMG analysis does also demonstrate, is the closure of clubs between that, and you can see that on the same page.

PN1417

Mr Rees, Mr Rees, I'm just going to stop you there. I'm going to stop you. My question was, whether you agreed with the KPMG statement that the results about the financial viability of ACT clubs needs to be treated with caution. Yes or no?‑‑‑I don't agree with this statement.

PN1418

But you do agree with the end paragraph?‑‑‑I do agree with the end paragraph.

PN1419

You're just agreeing with the bits you like and disagreeing with the bits you don't like?‑‑‑Again, I attempted to demonstrate to you where I have issue with it and that is it has to be taken in the context of the closure of clubs between 2011 and 2015. The question is why did those clubs close - - -

PN1420

No, sorry, I didn't ask you that question?‑‑‑and that would have to do with financial viability.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1421

I did not ask that question, Mr Rees?‑‑‑Sorry.

PN1422

Can I ask you now to look at paragraph 22 of your statement now please?‑‑‑Sure.

PN1423

What you said in the second sentence of paragraph 22 is:

PN1424

That gaming revenue has reduced by 6.1 per cent from the financial year ending 30 June 2011 to the financial year ending 30 June 2017.

PN1425

You've referred to an annexure marked GR5. Can I ask you to look at that please?‑‑‑Is the passage you're reading from on page 22 again, sorry?

PN1426

I'm sorry, it's the second sentence:

PN1427

From the financial year ending 30 2011 to the financial year ending 30 June 2017, gaming revenue reduced by 6.1 per cent.

PN1428

WITNESS: This is in - sorry, I'm look at the wrong - this is in my statement, sorry?

PN1429

It is, it is?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1430

Can I just ask you to look at GR5 please?‑‑‑Sure.

PN1431

Have you go that there?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1432

This chart, did you prepare this chart?‑‑‑It's provided by the Gambling and Racing Commission. They provide us on a monthly basis, the figures for any particular month.

PN1433

But did you prepare it from the figures provided by - - -?‑‑‑Yes, I - we've maintained it.

PN1434

You personally prepared it? Your organisation?‑‑‑Correct, yes, that's correct.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1435

Not your wife this time?‑‑‑No.

PN1436

Looking at this chart, what it shows is that you certainly had a couple of bad years in 2011 and 2012, but since then things have been looking up. That's what this chart shows, doesn't it?‑‑‑It doesn't demonstrate that at all. I think any business with - - -

PN1437

Well, Mr Rees - - -

PN1438

MR DIXON: Sorry, the witness should be allowed. He's asked a question whether he agrees - - -

PN1439

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Could you allow the witness to finish his answer Ms Burke?

PN1440

MS BURKE: Yes, certainly?‑‑‑It doesn't demonstrate that at all. I think you have to take it in the context of business growth and what it demonstrates, is there has been none. I don't think any reasonable business could be expected to operate on declining revenues.

PN1441

But things were going very badly for you on your evidence in 2011 and you are climbing out of that hole, that's the case, isn't it?‑‑‑The downward trend of that chart continues. It's not going up, it's going down.

PN1442

Mr Rees, the line on the chart - perhaps I need to see it in colour, but the sum of gross gaming revenue is going up on the table I'm looking at?‑‑‑Sorry, the line that you're looking at is a CPI comparison from a base year of October 2005. So, the top end of that chart is where gaming revenue should be, had it followed a normal CPI path.

PN1443

Where it says sum of gross gaming revenue at the bottom of the table, you're saying that doesn't represent the sum of gross gaming revenue in the ACT over that period?‑‑‑So, the sum of gross gaming revenue line are the lower lines that you see the bar graphs, rising and falling.

PN1444

Yes?‑‑‑You'll see a trend line going down on an angle through those bar graphs. The angle downward line is the sum of gross gaming revenue. So, it is in decline. The sum of CPI comparison from October 2005, it predates the introduction of smoking bans and that is where the path would follow if CPI was applying from that date.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1445

October - I see. The reference to October 2005 is the sum of CPI comparison but of course, October 2005, you can't see that on the chart in the data?‑‑‑You can't no, not on that chart.

PN1446

You said about smoking bans just now?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1447

If you could just repeat that. What was it that affected - smoke?‑‑‑The removal of smoking areas that are attached to gaming areas.

PN1448

That had a negative impact on gross gaming revenue?‑‑‑Yes, instant and demonstrable impact.

PN1449

Yes, I see. Were the smoking bans also applied to restaurants and hotels, or were they introduced in a sort of phased way? If you don't know, of course?‑‑‑In a phased way. Sorry?

PN1450

I was just going to say that if you don't know, then by all means say so?‑‑‑Smoking bans were introduced in the ACT via the Smoke-Free Environment Act at later dates and people aren't allowed to smoke in restaurants or bars or in outdoor areas. You can make a special application for what's called a designated outdoor smoking area a DOSA, but they are not attached. There's parameters that apply to different business structures. Most businesses choose not to have them at all.

PN1451

I see. In terms of the number of clubs that are in the ACT, you've said there are 49 clubs and I'm looking at paragraph 9 of your statement. You've got 37 members is that right?‑‑‑Yes, that's about correct, yes.

PN1452

Of the clubs in the ACT, you've said at paragraph 10, some but not all, provide gaming facilities?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct. Not all clubs have gaming facilities.

PN1453

Out of the 49 clubs, how many don't have gaming facilities?‑‑‑The Polish White Eagle Club.

PN1454

Any others?‑‑‑The Commonwealth Club.

PN1455

Sorry, I just missed that one?‑‑‑Sorry, the Commonwealth Club, Federal Golf Course.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1456

So three?‑‑‑And off the top of my head, that is it.

PN1457

Can I ask you to look at annexure 2 to your statement please?‑‑‑Sure. The Gaming Revenue?

PN1458

Yes, this is taken from the annual report of the ACT Gambling and Racing Commission 2015-2016?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1459

This is table 16 from that report. You can see there are a number of clubs on that list and I'm happy for you to count them, or you can take my word for it that there's 46 out of 50 clubs on that list that appear to have gaming machines. The reason that some don't is because there is a zero figure in the amount column?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1460

There's also some pubs on that list in the second column towards the end?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1461

There's nine pubs on that list?‑‑‑Yes, so subsequently - are you asking me whether that remains true?

PN1462

No, I'm going to ask you if you know how many hotels and taverns there are in Canberra?‑‑‑In what context would you like to know in the sense of bar licences?

PN1463

At large?‑‑‑Sorry?

PN1464

How many hotels or taverns, if you know, are there in Canberra?‑‑‑The context which is probably a bit easier. The license structure in the ACT with regards to liquor licensing.

PN1465

Yes?‑‑‑Defines a sub-class of licence. Roughly we have 49 clubs with a liquor licence. Then you have around about 63, was the last information I saw in terms of the bar sub-class licence. Then for hotels, I would imagine there is - this is where my knowledge is less good, but around 50 hotel licences - could be more.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1466

Is there any difference with taverns? Is that a separate category?‑‑‑There is a roughly - there is some new answers. It's called a general licence. The general licence allows both on and off licence sales, so take away liquor. So, there is some general licences in the mix. For example, and again this comes from knowledge and experience of the history. The Kingston Hotel as an example would hold a general licence. There might be again, 12, 13, 15 general licences, something like that.

PN1467

There's over double and maybe even a bit more, the number of bars, hotels and general licensees, than there are to clubs. That's about right, in Canberra?‑‑‑If you included licensed restaurants, then there's about 330.

PN1468

I won't for this purpose, but thank you for that information?‑‑‑There's also a nightclub sub-class, just to throw that one in there as well.

PN1469

Sure?‑‑‑And there's about a dozen of those.

PN1470

Dozen night clubs in Canberra. Now, the top of this table 16 says Problem Gambling Assistance Fund Receipts. I want to ask you some questions about that fund. Are you familiar with it?‑‑‑Yes, I am.

PN1471

Do you know how it's funded?‑‑‑Yes, a levy on gaming revenue.

PN1472

Do you know what the levy is?‑‑‑Yes, I do. In that year, the levy was 0.6 per cent and it has recently been changed in the last financial year to 0.75 per cent. So, that has meant that the fund has risen collectively from cut clubs by about an additional $300,000. So, it currently takes about $1.3 million.

PN1473

It's the case, isn't it that the levy is payable on the licensee's gross revenue for each tax period?‑‑‑No, it is net gaming revenue.

PN1474

I'm sorry, net gaming revenue. The tax period is a month, although you can elect to pay annually or quarterly?‑‑‑There are some nuances in terms of how the small to medium clubs can pay it. But I couldn't give you those specific details. I more deal with the total number as it appears.

PN1475

That's okay, we'll do that. Table 16 of course, is looking at fund receipts for a whole year, 2015-2016 financial year?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1476

You said the required percentage for that financial year was 0.6 per cent?‑‑‑Correct.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1477

Taking the Ainslie Football Club as an example, because that's right at the top there. They paid $33,695 in problem gambling levy in that financial year? Can you see that there? There's ACT Rugby Union Club Incorporated, then the next line is the Ainslie Group and then the next line is the Ainslie Football and Social Club?‑‑‑Yes, sure. Look, as it appears, if that number - those numbers should be right. Without the benefit of a calculator and being able to check it, yes.

PN1478

I'm not sure why you'd need a calculator to check whether this number is accurate or not. I'll ask you to just accept that it is, in the table. I'm talking about the $33,695. That's 0.6 per cent of gaming revenue for that club?‑‑‑Yes, but those receipts may reflect a little higher. I do know, again knowledge and experience, the Ainslie Group does pay a little bit additional to the legislated amount and that I would imagine be captured here.

PN1479

Why is that?‑‑‑They just decided to give more to problem gambling. It's contained within the Gaming Machine Act. There's a provision there to do that. So, they give a bit more.

PN1480

It's a voluntary contribution?‑‑‑It's a voluntary contribution.

PN1481

I see, all right. Just taking for argument sake that that is 0.6 per cent of gaming revenue, then it would follow, wouldn't it, that the total gaming revenue - yes net gaming revenue for that period for that group, sorry for that club was about $5.6 million. I'm happy to give you the sum if that would help?‑‑‑So, it's net - net gaming revenue is really the relevant bit that the club ends up with, right? Is that the figure you're discussing?

PN1482

I'm just looking at this $33,695 figure, that is 0.6 per cent of gaming revenue for the Ainslie Football and Social Club?‑‑‑Yes, net gaming revenue, yes.

PN1483

Are you sure it's net gaming revenue, Mr Rees?‑‑‑I'm pretty certain it's net gaming revenue.

PN1484

I'm afraid that because you're on the video link I can't hand you a copy of this. But, I can tell you and I can hand a copy to my friend that the Gaming Machine Act section 159, and I'll just hand some copies up to the Full Bench. This is just part 11 of that and I'll just read it to you Mr Rees and please tell me if it's not clear. This is section 159(1):

PN1485

Gaming machine tax is payable on the gross revenue in relation to the operation - - -

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1486

WITNESS: Sorry, my mistake, yes. I would have been simply confusing the community contributions with net gaming revenue. My apologies.

PN1487

MS BURKE: That's all right. No, no, that's fine. Sorry, I should - you're right, this is gaming machine tax.

PN1488

MR DIXON: I think my learned friend should now clarify the position, because section 159 seems to deal with something different from table 16. 159 deals with gaming machine tax and the other one is problem gambling receipts. The record can't stand as it presently is.

PN1489

MS BURKE: No certainly, I'll take you to the right section. My apologies. That's section 163A of the Gaming Machine Act. What that section provides is that a licensee is liable to pay a required percentage of the licensee's gross revenue for each tax period to the Problem Gambling Assistance Fund?‑‑‑Hm-mm.

PN1490

I'm sorry, that's the correct section to refer to and that refers to gross revenue. So, going back to table 16, the Ainslie Football and Social Club's problem gambling assistance fund levy for the financial year ending 30 June 2016 was $33,695?‑‑‑Hm-mm.

PN1491

That represents 0.6 per cent of their gross revenue for that year?‑‑‑Sure.

PN1492

What I'm suggesting to you is that that means that the gross revenue for that football and social club was $5.6 million from gaming machines?‑‑‑Look, I guess again, without the benefit of the calculator I'd have to take what you've advised as the figure.

PN1493

I'm happy to give you time if you want, Mr Rees to work it out and the sum is - you multiply the $33,695 figure by 100 and then you divide it by 0.6?‑‑‑Sure. Again, I'm happy to accept the figure as you've stated.

PN1494

Looking at the subtotal for clubs in that table 16, that's about half way down the second column?‑‑‑Hm-mm.

PN1495

The total club's contribution to the Problem Gambling Assistance Fund was just over a $1 million?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1496

Which is 0.6 per cent of gross gaming revenue for clubs of nearly $168 million in that financial year?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1497

Just looking at pubs for the same year, this is the subtotal hotels and taverns. Their total Problem Gambling Assistance Fund levy was $2,395 which is just under $400,000 of revenue in that financial year. Do you accept that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1498

That is substantially than $168 million, isn't it?‑‑‑Substantially less than what, sorry?

PN1499

$168 million which was the club's gross gaming machine revenue?‑‑‑It is less.

PN1500

It's about 4 per cent on my calculation. All gaming machine licensees are required to pay gaming machine tax on gross revenue. You're aware of that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1501

Just to be clear, that's gross revenue in relation to the operation of gaming machines for each tax period?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1502

Clubs pay gaming machine tax at a different rate to other licence holders?‑‑‑Well again, the gaming machine tax rates are different between the hotels and taverns and the clubs. That's correct.

PN1503

In fact, clubs pay significantly less gaming machine tax than other licence holders. That's right, isn't it?‑‑‑No, overall they pay a lot more gaming tax.

PN1504

Are you familiar with the tax rates applicable to clubs and to hotels, Mr Rees?‑‑‑I am familiar with them, yes.

PN1505

Again, I apologise again that I can't show you the section of the legislation, but I'm comforted by your familiarity with it and of course my friend has a copy?‑‑‑Mind you, I don't have them memorised, but I am familiar with them.

PN1506

I'm looking now for the benefit of the transcript at section 159 from section 4 of the Gaming Machine Act. What that provides is that the prescribed percentage - this is the prescribed percentage of tax payable for a month in relation to a licensee that is a club. If the revenue is $25,000 or less, clubs pay no tax. Does that sound about right?‑‑‑Have you got the framework applicable over a year?

PN1507

I'm just reading from the Act, so this is per month.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1508

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Burke, are you asking the witness about what the Act says?

PN1509

MS BURKE: No, my question is whether clubs pay a different and lesser tax rate than hotels. I'm just taking him through what the Act provides in order to make that good.

PN1510

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I mean the Act says what it says and you can tell us that in submissions, can't you?

PN1511

MS BURKE: Yes. It's the case, isn't it Mr Rees, that - - -?‑‑‑We're having an audio difficulty - no, it's gone. Sorry, thank you.

PN1512

That's all right. The total revenue from gaming machines for clubs based on the annexure to your statement is significantly higher than for pubs, isn't it? You said that?‑‑‑Sorry, the total, the revenue that is generated?

PN1513

The gross revenue from gaming machines?‑‑‑In clubs versus pubs, yes. It's far higher in clubs, yes correct statement.

PN1514

The tax treatment is differential on gaming machine tax?‑‑‑There is a differential, yes.

PN1515

You're aware that there is a point of revenue earnings at which clubs pay no gaming machine tax?‑‑‑I am aware of that, yes.

PN1516

But hotels will pay gaming machine tax on every dollar earned from the first dollar up?‑‑‑Yes, I am aware of that.

PN1517

Your evidence is that clubs are facing increased competition from hospitality venues?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1518

Yes, and that clubs are at a disadvantage because they have to pay slightly higher penalty rates to a third of their workforce. That's your evidence, isn't it?‑‑‑Let's say I'm a lawn bowls facility maintaining bowling greens.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1519

No, no, no, Mr Rees. I'm just going to ask you to answer my question. Your evidence is that clubs are at a disadvantage because they have to pay slightly higher penalty rates to permanent employees than hospitality employees?‑‑‑Clubs are at a disadvantage in a number of areas with regard to taxes, fees and charges.

PN1520

Mr Rees, I'm just asking you about penalty rates?‑‑‑Can you ask me the question again?

PN1521

Your evidence is that clubs are at a disadvantage because they have to pay slightly higher penalty rates to permanent employees. You might want to have a look at paragraph 43 of your statement?‑‑‑Thank you.

PN1522

The heading there is Costs Disadvantages. Would you like me to ask you the question again?‑‑‑Yes please.

PN1523

Your evidence is that clubs are at a disadvantage to hospitality and restaurant businesses, because they have to pay slightly higher penalty rates to permanent employees?‑‑‑I think there are disadvantages of the Club Award versus that of the Hospitality and Restaurant Awards. Yes, I agree.

PN1524

Of course, that disadvantage only applies to the 32 per cent of permanent workers in the club sector in Canberra?‑‑‑I guess you're looking at the merging of the awards and is that a comment on - would you mind rephrasing, sorry?

PN1525

Yes, there are only 32 per cent of clubs' employees in Canberra are employed on a permanent, that is a non-casual basis and they're not trainees or apprentices. That's correct, isn't it?‑‑‑I think again, there's disadvantages between the award where seeking parity and there will be nuances where employees - - -

PN1526

Mr Rees - - -

PN1527

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think we need to deal with the question Mr Rees. Correct me if I'm wrong Mr Burke, the premise of the question is that at least with the Hospitality Award and the Clubs Award there is currently no difference in penalty rates for weekend for casuals.

PN1528

MS BURKE: That's correct.

PN1529

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Do you understand that?‑‑‑Yes, I do understand that.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1530

Ms Burke is directing her question to permanent employees, that is non-casual employees. Do you understand that?‑‑‑Yes, I do, yes.

PN1531

I think you've been taken to the club census which demonstrates that only about a third - what was the figure, about a third?

PN1532

MS BURKE: 32 per cent.

PN1533

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: 32 per cent were permanent employees?‑‑‑True.

PN1534

So, as I said Ms Burke's question is, is it your view that having to pay a higher weekend penalty rate to the one third of the workforce who are permanent workers, as compared to those under the Hospitality and Restaurant Award, puts clubs at a competitive disadvantage?‑‑‑Yes, I do believe it puts them at a competitive disadvantage.

PN1535

Thank you.

PN1536

MS BURKE: You think that the way to ameliorate that, or one way to ameliorate that is to cut weekend penalty rates for those workers by about $4 or $5 an hour?‑‑‑

PN1537

MR DIXON: I have a - - -

PN1538

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Objection Mr Rees.

PN1539

MR DIXON: I think it would be fair for my learned friend to put the basis upon which she arrives at that figure, given what is proposed in this merged award so that one understands the provisions that are referred to, when they will operate and what counter-measures there might be.

PN1540

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is there any discrepancy about those numbers, once the transition is completed, which I think is by 2019?

PN1541

MR DIXON: I don't know whether that is what my learned friend is referring to. That's part of the comment.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1542

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Are these the final figures after the transitional period?

PN1543

MS BURKE: They are, your Honour.

PN1544

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Well perhaps you just make that clear.

PN1545

MS BURKE: If awards are cut - I'll start again. If penalty rates are cut for permanent employees on weekends under the Clubs Award, their hourly rate would be reduced by, depending on the level, between $4 and $7 an hour. Do you accept that?‑‑‑I accept that.

PN1546

That's what you want to do to ameliorate the costs disadvantage you say clubs are suffering, compared to hospitality?‑‑‑There is an underlying thing here about clubs being able to compete in the same instance as the hospitality and restaurant industry. As we demonstrated previously, there's a lot of growth in those other licence types. Clubs as well in the ACT have been forced to move away from gamin revenue. That is a government directive. So, over time, yes clubs will need to be more like the businesses they're competing with.

PN1547

You think a way to achieve that is to cut workers' rates between $4 and $7 an hour on weekends?‑‑‑That is being ameliorated over time as those two awards become one. I think as new employees come in or existing employees, that is mitigated, the option will be available for some clubs. Some may not choose to do it at all.

PN1548

You're making this application on the basis that they will do it. Otherwise there wouldn't be any point, would there?‑‑‑I think there's a point in having a range of options available to clubs, particularly those that, you know, are looking to diversify their business models.

PN1549

So that they earn less gaming machine revenue?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1550

Even though currently their gaming machine revenue is substantially greater than hotels' gaming machine revenue?‑‑‑It has to be taken in the context of two‑thirds of Canberra's clubs maintaining infrastructure for the community, plus community contributions. I don't agree with your statement.

*** GWYN REES XXN MS BURKE

PN1551

I suppose the gaming machine tax advantages that clubs enjoy over hotels, they're part of the context, as well, are they, Mr Rees?‑‑‑Well, the context doesn't apply when we cross the border, does it? We're certainly in competition with Queanbeyan as much as we are the ACT, so we can step over the border and find pubs with gaming machines. You know, your argument is different there.

PN1552

I'm just asking you about within the border?‑‑‑I don't think people just instantly stop at the border. I believe they go over the border, as well.

PN1553

Thank you, Mr Rees. I don't have any more questions.

PN1554

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Does any other organisation opposing the application wish to cross‑examine this witness?

PN1555

I just want to ask you one question, Mr Rees. Can you just put your hand on the document - it's exhibit 12. It's the modern award review Clubs Australia Industrial document?‑‑‑The actual award, sorry, yes.

PN1556

No, it's the three‑page document with the email header that you sent out on 28 April 2017?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN1557

Can I just take you to the top of the third page. Can you just read those first three lines to yourself. My question is - and I appreciate that you're not the author of that part of the document although you distributed it - what is the identity which is being referred to in the first line?‑‑‑Clubs.

PN1558

What is the identity of clubs that is sought to be preserved?‑‑‑Specifically, again, the club identity.

PN1559

What is the club identity?‑‑‑The club identity is, I guess, our not for profit structure. You know, one based on mutual interest.

PN1560

Why does that need to be preserved in the context of the award?‑‑‑I think there is probably a feeling of familiarity there as the two awards come together.

PN1561

All right. Thank you. Any re‑examination, Mr Dixon?

PN1562

MR DIXON: Thank you, your Honour.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON [12.33 PM]

*** GWYN REES RXN MR DIXON

PN1563

MR DIXON: Mr Rees, towards the end of your cross‑examination you were asked some questions in relation to the disadvantages that clubs have by reference to various industrial instruments. You did, in part of your answer, refer to clubs facing less gaming revenue in the ACT in the future and there was some pressure from the government. Can you explain what you meant by that?‑‑‑Yes, there has been a very definite government directive for clubs to reduce their reliance on gaming revenue. It is repeated in the assembly very often. Part of that is a reduction in gaming machines; the largest reduction in gaming machines in the territory. That will happen in due course as this year plays out. The territory government intends to reduce gaming machines from nearly 5000 to 4000, so that will be, you know, a significant undertaking and unknown in terms of how that impacts the clubs moving forward in terms of their revenues. That will play out in due course.

PN1564

In further answer to the series of questions, you made reference to access to the border and a different position applying for hotels. Can you explain what you meant by that?‑‑‑Yes, you know, across jurisdictional differences. For example, we touched on that previously. Al fresco gaming is not allowed in the ACT, but you can cross the border and you can find al fresco gaming available in pubs and the clubs that exist over in Queanbeyan, so they still are able to operate under those conditions. Another example is the liquor licensing regime. Clubs pay some of the highest liquor licence fees in Australia. You know, by way of example a small bowls club here operating until midnight will pay 5 and a half thousand dollars for their liquor licence, but if they're over the border it's $530 until midnight. Other examples are, you know, the rates regime that the bar government has undertaken in the ACT and that is placing significant financial pressures on clubs. Again by way of example, Yowani Country Club has seen their rates rise since the introduction from 14,000 to over 60,000 dollars and those costs are applicable across other clubs. We have seen, you know, 100, 200, 300 per cent increases in the general rates applied to club land. That's not necessarily a cost burden, you know, that a hotel that doesn't own the site or a pub might have, you know, renting a commercial site has to bear.

PN1565

Also as part of your answers on that topic you made reference to - according to my note - about two‑thirds of clubs have infrastructure, as I understood it, impacting on cost. What did you mean by "infrastructure"?‑‑‑So recreational infrastructure, to be clear. Clubs maintain over 400 hectares of infrastructure, so there is, you know, six golf courses, 20 bowling greens, cricket fields, football fields. That's all infrastructure that is maintained at the expense of clubs.

PN1566

You were also asked a range of questions in relation to the 2015 KPMG census?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GWYN REES RXN MR DIXON

PN1567

You were taken to a passage where there was expressed a degree of caution and a cautionary note about the ACT. You said you did not agree with that cautionary note and you started giving a reason, but you were cut off. Would you explain to the Commission why you did not agree with that cautionary note?‑‑‑I guess, reflecting, there is some humour here. This is an extensive undertaking undertaken for ClubsACT and, you know, we got a lot of clubs involved this time. As I said, my understanding was it was over 30, so to have the qualifier put on by KPMG for us was a little frustrating given, you know, more than half the number of clubs provided information to KPMG and yet that qualifier was applied. We were quite frustrated by that. We have the data and it gives, you know, in our view a reasonable snapshot. The other context of course is the closure of clubs, you know, and they will continue to close. There will be more closing in the next year. That obviously results in a loss of employment. If you use the 2011 KPMG data, we had something like 23 hundred employees and if you look at the 2015 data we're down to 1745 employees, so you see significant change as those clubs close. You know, you can take it in one context, but there is other ways to look at that data and see what's happening. To say that the cost pressures - you know, the change in gaming environment is not having an impact on clubs in tandem with a growth in the hospitality sector, you know, is not fair.

PN1568

Thank you. In relation to the attachment to your first statement, GR5, could you bring that to hand?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1569

You have mentioned a downward trend continuing in declining revenues?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1570

Are you able to explain that by reference to not the chart at the bottom, but the figures at the top of that exhibit?‑‑‑Yes. If you're specifically looking at the numbers above, you can see the decline in trend, so the 2010‑11 financial - - -

PN1571

Sorry, Mr Rees, I'm interrupting you, but just refer to the particular figures that you were about to talk about?‑‑‑So 2010‑11? There was 179 million and then you follow that down to the final year at 168 million.

PN1572

When you said the downward trend continues, is it your view that that is a situation beyond 2017?‑‑‑The current year will probably be around equal to the 2017 year.

PN1573

Thank you. You were also asked a number of questions in relation to classifications and employees working in classifications. You were asked some questions about fitness instructors. You said something along the lines that - "Those clubs that have them." You recall that?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GWYN REES RXN MR DIXON

PN1574

Are you able to tell the Commission the number or percentage of clubs in the ACT that employ fitness instructors?‑‑‑I can't give an exact number. If you asked it as who might have a gym, I could give that indication, but I don't have that information at hand.

PN1575

Can you give the Commission some indication as to who might - sorry, let me go back. The fitness instructors that you were referring to, were they persons employed in a gym?‑‑‑Yes, that's how I understood it, that might be attached to a club.

PN1576

Do you know how many such facilities are available?‑‑‑In a rough sense?

PN1577

As well as you can give the Commission?‑‑‑As well as I can, yes. I would say, you know, probably a handful.

PN1578

By a handful you mean, what, five?‑‑‑Five or six, yes.

PN1579

You were asked some questions about child care workers. Do you have knowledge of the venues where such employees are employed in the ACT in clubs?‑‑‑Again I could only think of one facility that a club has. It's not directly attached to the building of the club, but owned by the club, as in the building is. Again I think it's independently leased, if that makes sense.

PN1580

If the Commission pleases, that is the re‑examination. May Mr Rees be excused.

PN1581

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you very much, Mr Rees. You're excused and you're free to go.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.44 PM]

PN1582

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Who is the next witness, Mr Dixon?

PN1583

MR DIXON: We were going to call Mr Addison next. Some arrangement was made to interpose Mr Docker, who is a United Voice witness. I'm not sure what his availability is later in the afternoon, but Mr Addison has been waiting since yesterday morning. Perhaps we can - subject to the Commission's view - sort out which one of those two witnesses will be called next.

PN1584

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Should we take an early luncheon adjournment and resume at 1.30?

*** GWYN REES RXN MR DIXON

PN1585

MR DIXON: If the Commission pleases.

PN1586

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. We will now adjourn and resume at 1.30.

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.45 PM]

RESUMED [1.34 PM]

PN1587

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, is Mr Addison the next witness?

PN1588

MR DIXON: Yes. May I just indicate to the Commission how we reorganised matters subject to people's availability. We intend calling Mr Addison next for Clubs Australia Industrial, followed by my learned friends calling Mr Docker for United Voice. That will take, we think, the substantial part of the afternoon until the 5 o'clock commitment with Mr Murray for Clubs Australia Industrial.

PN1589

Tomorrow the list is first Ms Petri for Clubs, Mr Mossman for Clubs, followed by Mr Constable, Mr Cooper and Mr Genge. The five witnesses are organised for tomorrow.

PN1590

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN1591

MR DIXON: Thank you. May I call Mr Addison, if the Commission pleases.

PN1592

THE ASSOCIATE: Could you please state your full name and address.

PN1593

MR ADDISON: George Bruce Addison, (address supplied).

<GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON, AFFIRMED [1.36 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DIXON [1.36 PM]

PN1594

MR DIXON: Mr Addison, are your full names George Bruce Addison?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1595

Are you employed at Clubs Australia as the government relations manager for Queensland?‑‑‑I was.

PN1596

Since you made your first statement, that position has changed?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1597

What is your present position?‑‑‑Self‑employed.

PN1598

Can you then state your present address for the record?‑‑‑(Address supplied).

PN1599

When you were employed by Clubs Australia you made a statement of 23 October 2018 of some 67 paragraphs. Do you have a copy of that statement with you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1600

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, the version I think we have is unsigned and undated. Is there a different version?

PN1601

MR DIXON: Not that I have been able to establish and that's why I will follow that up with the witness, if the Commission pleases.

PN1602

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Thank you.

PN1603

MR DIXON: Does your copy end after paragraph 67 or have you a signed copy?‑‑‑At 67. I don't have a signed copy.

PN1604

You don't have a signed copy. The first paragraph of what you have starts with, "I am a government relations manager," et cetera?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1605

There are attached to that statement six annexures. Is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1606

In relation to paragraph 46, I understand, Mr Addison, you wish to add an additional word in the last sentence. Is that correct?‑‑‑In the first sentence and in the last sentence.

PN1607

In the first sentence, "Each of the current large casinos"?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN1608

In the last sentence, "In the current large casinos operated"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1609

Can I indicate to the Commission that we don't read paragraph 67.

PN1610

Leaving that aside, Mr Addison, do you say that the contents of that statement are to the best of your knowledge true and correct?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1611

I tender the statement, if the Commission pleases.

PN1612

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Are there any objections, Mr Dowling?

PN1613

MR DOWLING: Yes, there are, your Honour. I think we can deal with them relatively quickly given the rulings that have been made. Was the bench provided with a table in respect of Mr Addison?

PN1614

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I don't think so.

PN1615

MR DOWLING: I'll see if I can locate a copy. Perhaps while that is being obtained, I can identify the objections.

PN1616

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes. Is it easier if we deal with both statements at the same time?

PN1617

MR DOWLING: Yes. Do you want my learned friend to perhaps - - -

PN1618

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Do you want to address the tender of the second statement, as well, Mr Dixon?

PN1619

MR DIXON: Thank you, your Honour.

PN1620

Mr Addison, did you on 8 June 2018 make a supplementary statement in these proceedings?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1621

Does that consist of nine paragraphs and does it have your signature without the words "George Addison", and it's dated 8 June 2018?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1622

I seek to tender that statement and may I indicate subject to this qualification: that we do not read paragraph 6 and we do not read paragraph 8 of that statement, if the Commission pleases.

PN1623

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dowling?

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1624

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour. In respect of the table that you have been provided, the first of the objections is to paragraph 10. My learned friend has informed me that he does not seek to read the words at the commencement of that paragraph "In order to fund these community services".

PN1625

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that correct, Mr Dixon?

PN1626

MR DIXON: Yes, your Honour.

PN1627

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. That will be struck out.

PN1628

MR DOWLING: With that deletion, we no longer press our objection to paragraph 10. The next of the objections is in relation to that group 19 through 22 dealing with what it is that Mr Addison says based on his knowledge. This falls into that category, your Honour, I think that you ruled upon. If it relates to clubs, Mr Addison, being a clubs person - or was - then that's something that would remain.

PN1629

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Well, 21 and 22 are of a different character, aren't they?

PN1630

MR DOWLING: Yes.

PN1631

MR DIXON: I can indicate to your Honour and the Commission, paragraph 21 - with your leave we'll ask Mr Addison to identify the basis which, as I understand it, is the Synergy report for that material. Paragraph 22 is in a different category and we would ask leave in relation to that.

PN1632

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Does that deal with that, Mr Dowling?

PN1633

MR DOWLING: I think so. I am assuming from what is just exchanged that leave will be sought in respect to the source of 21 and 22, and if it's not established then it's not admitted.

PN1634

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that right, Mr Dixon?

PN1635

MR DIXON: Yes.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1636

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, all right.

PN1637

MR DIXON: Does that deal with your paragraph 20?

PN1638

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: 19 and 20 will be admitted.

PN1639

MR DIXON: Thank you.

PN1640

MR DOWLING: The next, your Honour, is paragraph 30, which seems to fall into that category of the contrast between what's provided or operated by hotels as against clubs, not only in Mr Addison's state but in other states.

PN1641

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I will give you leave to adduce some more evidence about that, Mr Dixon.

PN1642

MR DIXON: Thank you.

PN1643

MR DOWLING: Paragraphs 33 to 36 whilst based on Mr Addison's knowledge all fall into the clubs category, if I can call it that, your Honour. Whilst we maintain the objection we understand based on the ruling they will be admitted.

PN1644

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, those paragraphs will be admitted.

PN1645

MR DOWLING: The same goes for 37 which is the next objection.

PN1646

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, that will be admitted.

PN1647

MR DOWLING: Paragraph 38 falls into a different category, your Honour, in our submission because it seeks to give evidence about the reasons that the clubs referred to choose to do particular things, and it's not admissible in our submission.

PN1648

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That paragraph will be admitted.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1649

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour. The next set of submissions are 41 through to 46 which deal with what purport to be the operations of casinos, now large casinos in respect to 46. It is not something that we say Mr Addison has the requisite expertise to comment on.

PN1650

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Are those paragraphs seriously in dispute?

PN1651

MR DIXON: There's a document to be tendered about the operating hours of casinos if that makes any – assists and speeds things up, your Honour.

PN1652

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: For example is it seriously controversial that the casinos have a number of gaming machines?

PN1653

MR DOWLING: No, your Honour. What you can take from that and what you can do with it is a different question; 42 for example, "Have a number of restaurants, cafes and bars", I am really not quite sure what that means; what number, how many, what do they provide. This witness is just not in a position to say, in our submission.

PN1654

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So paragraphs 41 to 45 will be admitted. In respect to 46 leave is granted to Mr Dixon to adduce some more evidence about the basis of that.

PN1655

MR DIXON: May I deal with 48 through to 52. Those paragraphs are drawn, we are instructed, from annexure 4 which is a Synergy's report, and we would ask the Commission to admit them on the basis that they are a convenient way of extracting from that report the propositions they set out.

PN1656

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is it sufficient that you're granted leave to clarify that proposition with the witness?

PN1657

MR DIXON: Yes, thank you.

PN1658

MR DOWLING: The way my friend describes it, your Honour, is a submission based on a report, but I heard what your Honour said. Paragraphs 55 to 59 is based on – we don't know the basis of the knowledge of these things.

PN1659

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Paragraphs 55 to 59?

PN1660

MR DOWLING: Yes, your Honour.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1661

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is 55 controversial, a hotel that operate bars?

PN1662

MR DOWLING: Again it's a question of – really it's a question of the extent of what it is, what is the offering. I think 55 might be uncontroversial because it's pointless, but if the evidence is intended to make some comment about because of the degree and size and extent of it is some level of competition then there's really no basis for the evidence, in our submission.

PN1663

MR DIXON: May we leave to tender underpinning documents which support that proposition?

PN1664

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. So that leave is granted in respect to paragraphs 55 to 59.

PN1665

MR DOWLING: Paragraphs 60 to 62 we would object to it on the basis of relevance and dealing with the restaurant sector. Your Honour ruled on that this morning in respect of the relevance of that. So we would expect those objections to fall with that ruling. That only leaves the paragraphs - - -

PN1666

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I am sorry, is 60 controversial or is that just accepted?

PN1667

MR DOWLING: It doesn't tell you the extent of the opening, how many do or what hours they do. Again that some do or that some might, that's not controversial. If it seeks to give evidence of anything other than that, which it doesn't on its face, then it's objectionable.

PN1668

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, paragraph 60, what is that based on?

PN1669

MR DIXON: We would be content for the first line to be read as "some".

PN1670

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN1671

MR DIXON: Thank you.

PN1672

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Does that resolve that one, Mr Dowling?

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1673

MR DOWLING: Yes.

PN1674

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What about the second sentence, the same thing? All right. So what are we up to?

PN1675

MR DOWLING: Paragraphs 61 and 62 were our objection - - -

PN1676

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I will give you leave to adduce evidence as to the basis of that, Mr Dixon.

PN1677

MR DOWLING: That just leaves 63 to 67 – 67 has been removed, my apologies. Paragraphs 63 to 66 in our submission are just that, submission.

PN1678

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So 63, Mr Dixon?

PN1679

MR DIXON: Sorry, your Honour, I didn't realise your Honour was - - -

PN1680

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, I wasn't, I was just reading it.

PN1681

MR DIXON: Thank you. Your Honour, it's a view expressed from someone who has worked in that industry. He seeks to support the view as to why he forms that view. We would ask for leave if that's unsatisfactory, but will not read the last sentence.

PN1682

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, so we will strike the last sentence of 63 and we will grant leave to adduce evidence as to the basis of the balance of paragraph 63, and I think also 64. Paragraphs 65 and 66 will be admitted.

PN1683

MR DOWLING: It leaves only one paragraph, your Honour, in the reply statement of Mr Addison. My note records that 6 came out and 8 came out. Our objection was to 6, 7 and 8. Seven seems to purport to give evidence as to who it is a particular RSL competes with.

PN1684

MR DIXON: May I have leave to amplify the basis for that knowledge?

PN1685

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, that leave is granted. Subject to those rulings and omissions the statement of George Addison undated will be marked exhibit 14.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

EXHIBIT #14 STATEMENT OF GEORGE ADDISON

EXHIBIT #15 SUPPLEMENTARY STATEMENT OF GEORGE ADDISON DATED 08/06/2018

PN1686

Mr Dixon?

PN1687

MR DIXON: Mr Addison, you were present when the Full Bench ruled on the various objections to the paragraphs. May I take you first to paragraph 21, and that is a paragraph where you express a view in respect of the reasons for the reduction in revenue of community clubs in Queensland. Can you tell the Commission what the basis is for that statement in that paragraph?‑‑‑That was drawn from comparison between the KPMG censuses who measure the revenue and operating capacity of clubs every two or three years. That information is drawn from official records from the Office of Liquor Gaming and Racing, information that's in the KPMG reports, and it's also in discussions, broader discussions with club managers and CEOs as to how their operations are trending.

PN1688

Does that extend to the hotel chains operated by ALH Group?‑‑‑Yes, that's where that comes from the discussions with the CEOs and managers who – particularly where new hotels are being purchased by those groups, investments, and they have seen a downward trend in their profitability and revenue streams because of the increased competition.

PN1689

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: And the casinos?‑‑‑The casinos it is more recent in that the Star Casino on the Gold Coast has started a major revamp program where we're seeing 600 to possibly a billion dollars being reinvested, restaurants being rebadged, reopened, new gaming areas, their whole offering raised to another level. We've seen it on a smaller scale in Townsville with the new owner there. They've done a minor revamp of the offering that they have to encourage people to come. The Reef Casino is travelling as is, but we are aware that there is discussions of a $600m investment there in that casino, and then we have the revamp of the Star Treasury in Brisbane which is now to be known as the Queens Wharf Casino, and that's a $3b to $5b investment that will be ongoing in transforming that from just a casino with a hotel into what would be classified as a large – large scale casino, and up to 56 licenced venues or restaurants that will be included in what they have called an integrated resort offering. So it will not be just a casino and a hotel similar to what you would have in Sydney, but there will be five to seven star hotels there, there will be a range of restaurants and they're advertising a range of other things that will go with it and services, open space.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1690

Paragraph 21, the point you are making there, seeking to make there is that one of the key reasons for reduction in revenue is the competition from places like that. Why do you say that, what's the basis for that conclusion?‑‑‑Well, the ALH Groups, or commonly known as the Woollies pubs and the Coles hotels, are able to access capital expenditure budgets from within those two very large organisations. You have a community club which will be a one off operation in a community, and it is competing against what are multi national corporations who are now operating services or operations which mirror exactly what the club offers; food, beverage, gaming. Those are all available in these hotels.

PN1691

So that's an inference, is it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1692

I mean you don't have data which shows that there's people who previously went to a club and now are going to a casino or a hotel or anything of that nature?‑‑‑We don't have it available, no.

PN1693

Mr Dixon.

PN1694

MR DIXON: In one of the answers you gave in relation to casinos I think it was Townsville you said on a smaller scale. What was it you were referring to, the scale of?‑‑‑A scale of investment.

PN1695

Which results in what?‑‑‑They have – it's a small footprint, so physically it's a small casino. So therefore the amount of money that's being injected into it at the moment is relatively small compared to a billion dollar investment on the Gold Coast or $3b to $5b in Brisbane.

PN1696

Just in relation to a question also asked by his Honour which we deal with in paragraph 22 where you say:

PN1697

To my knowledge an increasing number of members of community clubs - - -

PN1698

Do you see that paragraph?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1699

What is the basis of that knowledge that you there refer to?‑‑‑That's from the reports provided by the Star as a publicly listed entity with its annual reports. In them they detail the number of people coming through the door, and what we are seeing is that they readily admit that they target local people to come to the casino. So they aren't getting their increase from international tourists only. What they are doing is increasing their targeting of the local patrons to come in and use the services of the casino.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1700

What knowledge, if any, do you have on that topic from clubs?‑‑‑From clubs there was some – a study was done within New South Wales around the impact of the opening of the Star Casino here, and what came from that was that of the, I believe it was 45 clubs that were in operation within a 10 kilometre radius of the casino, there are 22 of those that closed since the opening of that club – that casino, and we have feedback from clubs that are on the outer rim of that impact zone that they are feeling and seeing a reduction in their revenues because they are in competition with the Star as a major destination point.

PN1701

That report, can you identify the name of that report?‑‑‑It was an internal ClubsNSW document.

PN1702

How does that relate to clubs in Queensland?‑‑‑It was borne out in the Synergy's report as to how they model the impact of the increased casino in Brisbane and the addition of a second casino on the Gold Coast that's proposed, and at the time there was a proposal to have a new or an additional casino in Cairns. So they used that modelling plus industry modelling through the economics group Synergy and came up with those conclusions as to what they foresaw would be the possible impact on club closures.

PN1703

May I then ask you to turn to paragraph 30 and in relation to the ClubsNSW internal report you give would you have a look at this document, please, Mr Addison. Do you recognise this document?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1704

Can you tell the Commission what it is?‑‑‑It's a briefing paper that was developed by ClubsNSW for the use with briefing or lobbying the Queensland Government at the time who had proposed the additional casinos and the expansion, and my understanding it was used to provide information to another – to the Synergy report.

PN1705

Is this the internal document you referred to earlier or is this a separate document?‑‑‑No, this is the document.

PN1706

I seek to tender that document.

PN1707

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any objection?

PN1708

MR DOWLING: It's identified, but it's not identified that he has had anything to do with it. I'm not sure how this witness is able to prove it.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1709

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon?

PN1710

MR DIXON: Did you have any input into the preparation of this document, Mr Addison?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1711

Can you tell the Commission what your input was?‑‑‑At the time I had – I was working in the role in Queensland and we were looking at doing a degree of lobbying around the casinos. I worked with the ClubsNSW staff to develop a briefing paper that we could give to politicians and to stakeholders.

PN1712

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What is for example the source of the information in the first two paragraphs?‑‑‑That comes – the first is historical information. The other documentation comes from gaming data that is displayed or available through the New South Wales Gaming Commission. So the information is taken from those government sources.

PN1713

The document will be admitted.

EXHIBIT #16 DOCUMENT ENTITLED CLUBSNSW BRIEFING PAPER ON THE IMPACT OF THE OPENING OF STAR CASINO DATED 16/09/2015

PN1714

MR DIXON: I will show you another document in relation to this topic if I may, please, Mr Addison. You may need to help us here, please, Mr Addison. Do you recognise this document?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN1715

Can you tell the Commission what it is?‑‑‑It's a – it looks like a screenshot of a regular report that's put out by a leading hospitality consultant within Queensland, DWS Group. What they take is the data, the gaming data that's made available through OLGR through the central monitoring system, and produce a series of reports or information sheets for the industry where they compare hotel – the operations of poker machines and hotels to clubs through the various geographic areas that the Office of Liquor and Gaming and Racing has created within Queensland. So this would be one of their regular ones which - - -

PN1716

Did you access this document?‑‑‑Yes, (indistinct) and their website, so I would have regularly accessed this information.

PN1717

I seek to tender the document if the Commission please.

PN1718

MR DOWLING: Your Honour, I do object to this.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1719

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry.

PN1720

MR DOWLING: Firstly the applicant was directed to put on its material in October of 2017. None of this material was provided. It was then directed to provide its material in reply in June of this year. None of this was provided. Here we are partway through its case and partway through Mr Addison's evidence and for the first time we are given an analysis prepared by an external body that we have no ability to obtain instructions on, no ability to test. In our submission it should not be admitted.

PN1721

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, what paragraphs does this relate to?

PN1722

MR DIXON: Your Honour, the competition and reduction in revenue, paragraph 21, and the hotel chains, clubs and hotel analysis deals with that issue.

PN1723

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Paragraph 21 is concerned with a causal analysis of the reason for the revenue decline, is it not? What does this document say about that?

PN1724

MR DIXON: Paragraph 20 deals with a reduction in revenue in recent years.

PN1725

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That has been admitted.

PN1726

MR DIXON: Yes, and that talks about the medium clubs, small to medium clubs, and then one of the reasons for a reduction in revenue it goes to the hotel chains operated, and this puts in context hotels. If one looks at the second table hotels in those regions and the reduction in clubs. The inference which we ask to be drawn is that the presence of those hotels are in part the reason for the reduction and the competition which is referred to in those paragraphs. The gap in the market share this month is shown in the graph below, and it is a growing gap in market share. The growing gap indicates, in my respectful submission, that the presence of those hotels and their operations and their income is a reason for the reduction in revenue for community clubs. I can't put it higher than that.

PN1727

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, the document won't be admitted.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1728

MR DIXON: Can I just come back then to paragraph 22, Mr Addison. In respect of the knowledge you there express you indicated a source. What, if any, knowledge did you acquire from clubs in relation to the matter that is set out in paragraph 22?‑‑‑In discussions with club managers and CEOs on the Gold Coast and in Brisbane on a number of occasions they indicated that they had seen or were aware of an increased rate of visitation by members to the casinos, the Gold Coast and to Brisbane. In some cases that was a very targeted cohort in that the casinos were offering inducements to some of their high value gaming members to go to the Gold Coast and play at the casino or go to Brisbane. It is well known within the industry that the casinos will target clubs. It happens in New South Wales, it happens in Victoria, it happens everywhere. They look for the high value gaming patron and seek to entice them across to their operation, the same as hotels do.

PN1729

Can I then ask you about paragraph 30 of your - - -

PN1730

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Just so I understand it, when we're talking about poker machines what's a high value patron?‑‑‑It is someone who turn up on a regular basis and would have no hesitation in maybe putting $5,000, $6,000, $10,000 through a machine in one session.

PN1731

You are talking about a gambling addict in effect?‑‑‑Not an addict in that they're very structured in what they're doing, and they can do this for quite a long while which means they're not losing excessive amounts of money. It's their – it's their hobby in some cases.

PN1732

I am not sure such people exist, but how many of these would the average club have?‑‑‑Your average club could be looking at maybe 10 up to maybe 20 people that would fit that kind of category. It's different to what – you know, casinos will talk about – I think the word they use is "whale" that owes a generally large value of these – those are people who are doing a million dollars well into excess, those figures. So those were your people like Kerry Packer who was famous for that, playing a range of different games.

PN1733

But they're not the type of person who will go to your local club and - - -?‑‑‑No. No, I don't think Kerry Packer ever went to his local club.

PN1734

All right. Thank you.

PN1735

MR DIXON: In paragraph 30 of your statement you deal with gaming machines and a number of poker machines contained in hotels in Queensland compared with elsewhere. Can you tell the Commission on what basis you express that statement?‑‑‑It's based on information that's available through government legislation, the State Government legislation that outlines where – the number of machines allocated and also within the – in a tabular format which is number 31.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1736

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: In paragraph 30 you talk about the total numbers of machines, don't you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1737

So where do you get that from?‑‑‑It's as - - -

PN1738

It's just the state cap you mean, is it?‑‑‑Yes. Each state Reach jurisdiction has put limits on the number of machines that will be available within the club sector and the hotel sector.

PN1739

It is assumed everyone is operating up to the cap?‑‑‑No, generally it's not every gaming entitlement is active at one time.

PN1740

And what is the reason for that?‑‑‑Some clubs may have – they might have 200 gaming entitlements, but physically the way their gaming floor is configured they might only have 150 active at any one time. They'll hold onto those entitlements. Some hotels will be similar, they will buy the entitlements when they come up, available, and they will – you could say they will bank them until such time as they may expand their gaming floor. So that's one of the ways in which it happens.

PN1741

MR DIXON: In paragraph 46 you make reference to the larger casinos, and the Commission has granted you leave to state the basis of or the source of that material that you set out in that paragraph. Can you tell the Commission what the basis of your knowledge is there set out?‑‑‑Those – the operation, the 24 operation is publicly available on the casinos websites. They actively advertise that they are open 24 hours and from their websites they will detail the list of services, restaurants, sports bars and activities that are at their venues.

PN1742

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The large ones are which ones?‑‑‑The large ones would be the Star on the Gold Coast and the Treasury Casino, both of which are owned by the Star Group.

PN1743

MR DIXON: Unfortunately I don't have copies at the moment, but could you please have a look at this document, Mr Addison. Do you identify the document as a bundle that I have handed up to you, Mr Addison?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1744

Can you tell the Commission what that set of documents - - -?‑‑‑This would be a series of screenshots of the Treasury Brisbane Casino detailing their operating hours, what services they offer and the type of links that you can further explore those offerings.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1745

I seek to tender the document and undertake to make – assist in getting copies at the appropriate time as the Commission pleases.

PN1746

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Has Mr Dowling seen them?

PN1747

MR DIXON: Yes, he has - it had been produced earlier.

PN1748

MR DOWLING: No, your Honour.

EXHIBIT #17 THE DOCUMENT HEADED "ABOUT TREASURY BRISBANE"

PN1749

MR DIXON: If the Commission please. Mr Addison, I want to ask you about paragraphs 47 and following. You will see in paragraph 47 you have annexed a copy of the Synergy's report?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1750

And they follow then in paragraphs 48 to 52 some evidence you have given. You start at 48 by saying "The report details"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1751

Can you tell the Commission whether what is in paragraphs 48 to 52 does all of that come from the report or has it got an alternative source?‑‑‑No, that source would be the Synergy's report.

PN1752

You don't have any independent, any other source for that material?‑‑‑Not – not for those particular statements.

PN1753

Thank you.

PN1754

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Does paragraph 50 come from the Synergy report?‑‑‑That is detailed in the report.

PN1755

It is?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1756

MR DOWLING: If it assists the Commission it's on page 72 of annexure 4.

PN1757

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you. Just staying with that paragraph, Mr Addison, that's the group of 10 or 20 which is a clubs on average have?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1758

All right. Thank you. Mr Addison, I might be jumping ahead but will playing around with penalty rates affect whether a high value patron, those small number of patrons choose to stay in a club or go somewhere else?‑‑‑I don't think it would have an indirect – a direct, but it will have an indirect impact in that if you were unable to maintain the level of servicing for that particular player, to reduce your staff numbers on the gaming floor because of the increased costs, that has a flow on.

PN1759

What do you mean increased costs?‑‑‑If – as your costs increase in operating your business, or the clubs are operating, and if their revenue is remaining stable which in a lot of cases it is, it's not increasing and in some cases it's decreasing, you're going to need to find a balance.

PN1760

Why are their costs increasing in respect to penalty rates?‑‑‑Sorry, increasing of the whole – of your operation.

PN1761

I am just trying to understand. Would adjusting penalty rates have any effect direct or indirect upon the behaviour of that small group of high value gamblers?‑‑‑It would – it limits your ability to compete with others. I mean hotels are able to target high value customers as well, and their operating costs when it comes to staff are lower as they're underneath the hospitality. It would be – it would be one of the factors, would it be the overall contributing factor I couldn't give you an answer on that. I suspect individual CEOs or managers of clubs who know these people they might be able to give you a definitive answer, but I couldn't give you that one.

PN1762

Thank you.

PN1763

MR DIXON: Can I then ask you to turn to paragraph 58 of your statement, Mr Addison?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1764

Can you tell the Commission what the source or basis of your knowledge is that is set out in paragraph 58?

PN1765

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I assume that should say hotels plural on the first line?

PN1766

MR DOWLING: Yes, your Honour.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1767

MR DIXON: Yes. Thank you, your Honour.

PN1768

WITNESS: The advertised services provided by most hotels that belong to those groups and other hotels, to provide those services you would need to employ food and beverage attendants, cooks and kitchen attendants, given the type of offering they provide, which is bar service, restaurants and gaming.

PN1769

MR DIXON: And when you talk about the advertised materials what are you referring to?‑‑‑They're publicly available websites where similar to casinos they advertise their services.

PN1770

In relation to paragraph 59 what is the source of your - - -?‑‑‑That was an ad that appeared in the Courier Mail which caused a degree of conjecture, because it was different to any other ad in the fact that usually that would be for one venue offering a special. In this case it was the special and it was offered by all of those hotels at the same time, and they had done that on a number of occasions. So it was a marketing exercise on their part.

PN1771

When you said it caused some conjecture what - - -?‑‑‑Well, it – what it – from the clubs perspective they were feeling that they were particularly – they were using a product at a subsidised price to target the market to entice people to come to the hotel to access that particular meal, and they felt it was – talking to a number of CEOs they felt it was a very effective marketing tool that they'd used.

PN1772

Can I then ask you to turn to paragraph 61?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1773

And tell the Commission what the basis of that statement or your knowledge is in relation to that paragraph?‑‑‑As an example of a new offering that's available within the community. We have seen the explosions of cafes, coffee clubs of that like across the state. The number available is from the Coffee Club website at that time, but there is a range of other ways in which people can access food and beverage now that they weren't – it wasn't part of the market or the offering previously.

PN1774

What is the basis for your statement that there is by way of example Coffee Club opening a particular number of venues since 1989?‑‑‑A number of clubs will operate and have cafes. It's a reasonably popular and profitable part of the operation. The new - - -

PN1775

Mr Addison, I am sorry to interrupt you, can you tell the Commission how you arrived at those figures and that date?‑‑‑That's from the Coffee Club website.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1776

Did you access that website?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1777

What is the source of your statement in the last sentence:

PN1778

The majority of those venues operate on weekends and public holidays.

PN1779

?‑‑‑From the knowledge of my local Coffee Club, but also from the websites of the various franchise sites.

PN1780

What do you mean by various franchise sites?‑‑‑It is – the Coffee Club is a franchise and they're required to operate to the franchise hours.

PN1781

Did you access that website?‑‑‑From the Coffee Club website, yes.

PN1782

For that purpose?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1783

In paragraph 62 you make reference to what has occurred in relation to food offerings in large shopping centres in Queensland. What is the source of your knowledge or the basis upon which you have given that evidence?‑‑‑That's based on personal knowledge and also advertising and feedback from people in the industry.

PN1784

What feedback and from who?‑‑‑Well, they've noticed that those – these CEOs of clubs, particularly within the Chirnside area. Chirnside Shopping Centre, next door to it is the Kedron-Wavell RSL. So it is well within distance. There's a shared boundary. That particular shopping centre has opened up a very large scale food area and bar area where they have – the Bavarian Beer House is there, taps, so they have a range of different food and beverage outlets, and that's in direct competition with what the Kedron-Wavell can provide through its outlets. So that's an example there.

PN1785

Then if I could draw your attention to paragraph 64?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1786

The Commission has granted leave for you to explain the basis of your knowledge or information which you there set out?‑‑‑Through the – through my knowledge and working history with the club sector the offerings that are made by clubs around food and beverage, gaming are exactly the same as what you can find in a hotel or pub. It is food and beverage, it's beers, it's wines, it's – they are two competitive groups within the same – within the same type of operation.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XN MR DIXON

PN1787

How did you get the knowledge about what occurs outside of clubs?‑‑‑Through visitation to hotels and by reading industry newsletters, products and talking with the industry people on a regular basis.

PN1788

If your Honour would just bear with me for a moment, please. I am sorry, your Honour, I am just looking for one – I have no further questions if the Commission pleases.

PN1789

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you, Mr Dowling.

PN1790

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DOWLING [2.34 PM]

PN1791

MR DOWLING: Mr Addison, just a couple of small additional – a couple of small questions arising from the additional evidence you gave today. You were taken to paragraph 22, which is that paragraph that provides the increasing number of members of the community clubs are visiting the casinos, and you were asked for your source of that, and one of the answers you gave was that there are statistics available from casinos about the increasing numbers of patrons that they have received. Correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1792

All right. It's correct, isn't it, that those numbers about the increase in patrons that casinos might be receiving do not in any way delineate where those people have come from?‑‑‑In some cases it does. They break it down between domestic, which would be the local resident, and international tourists.

PN1793

But you can't of course in any way delineate between whether that person who is gambling in that casino was the day before or a month before or a year before gambling in a community club, from the statistic?‑‑‑Not from the statistic, no.

PN1794

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: In respect of a place like the Gold Coast casino does domestic cover anyone in Australia, off the Gold Coast, as tourism from within Australia, or does it just include locals?‑‑‑Generally it's Australian residents.

PN1795

MR DOWLING: Domestic means Australian residents?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1796

You were also asked some questions about the Coffee Club and its opening hours and you gave some evidence about what those franchisees are required to do under their franchise agreements. Should we understand that you have seen and read the terms of the franchise agreements of the franchisees of the Coffee Club?‑‑‑No, but I have had a discussion with the local franchisees of my Coffee Club to ascertain what his operating hours are.

PN1797

So you were able to speak to his operating hours, the local one that you get your coffee from?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1798

Does that mean you are not able to speak to the other 159?‑‑‑Not that I have that evidence, but that's – that's the case, yes.

PN1799

And you are not familiar with the terms, the franchisee requirements in respect of the other 159 up?‑‑‑I don't have access to their – I don't, no.

PN1800

All right. Thank you very much. Taking you back to the start of your evidence, your evidence is that you were but are no longer the government relations manager for Queensland Clubs Australia. Did that job come to an end for you in March of this year, 2018, and I think your evidence was before you were self-employed, is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1801

You run your own consulting firm now, is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1802

GB Addison Consulting, correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1803

Are you able to describe to the Commission the circumstances of your departure from Clubs Australia?‑‑‑It was a decision I made myself. I had been approached by some clients that I now have to act on their behalf, and with some other colleagues who had successful consulting businesses, and they offered me the opportunity to come and work with them.

PN1804

Is there a new government relations manager Queensland for Clubs Australia?‑‑‑No, not at this stage.

PN1805

Are they looking for someone, are they?‑‑‑I don't know.

PN1806

Are you now no longer able to speak on behalf of Clubs Australia in any official capacity?‑‑‑Yes. I'm not allowed to speak, I'm no longer an employee of theirs.

PN1807

So the evidence that you give today is not evidence on behalf of Clubs Australia, is that right?

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1808

MR DIXON: The first statement was prepared on the basis that he was an employee at that stage.

PN1809

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I assume you mean he is not in a position to state the position of Clubs Australia about this application. Is that what you mean?

PN1810

MR DOWLING: Two things, your Honour. Firstly, the present position of Clubs Australia in respect of this application you can't comment?‑‑‑Not on their behalf, no. I'm no longer an employee.

PN1811

And position or view they might have held since March of 2018 you're not able to comment on?‑‑‑As I'd finished my employment with them in March I would be able to I understand.

PN1812

Or any view or opinion they might hold as of today?‑‑‑That would be correct, yes.

PN1813

Thank you. When you were the government relations manager I think your evidence is that you lobbied activities in Queensland?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1814

Using your words or similar words, and advocated on behalf of clubs in Queensland to the government?‑‑‑The government and other stakeholders, yes.

PN1815

It wasn't part of your job I take it to be involved in the operational decisions of particular clubs?‑‑‑No.

PN1816

Or the day to day activities of those particular clubs?‑‑‑No.

PN1817

Yours was a much broader policy role?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1818

Thanks very much. In that policy role I think your evidence is you commenced in about 2011, is that right?‑‑‑No, '12.

PN1819

In that policy role I take it you were familiar with the policy that was held by Clubs Australia as to the need for clubs to have their own and separate award?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1820

Is it correct to say that from the commencement of your employment up until the conclusion of it the position was always that they should have their own and separate award?‑‑‑I don't know if that's the case for all members of the Clubs Australia board and how it operates. There were some individual views there that I was aware of, but the position was that Clubs Australia, and this was being handled through Clubs Australia Industrial which I wasn't directly involved in, was that the Fair Work award modernisation was occurring and that was going to be allowed to track out and then decisions would be made once that decision was handed down.

PN1821

Perhaps we will take it back and I will just take you a few steps at a time. You mentioned award modernisation which perhaps predates you, but no doubt you're aware of it from your background. Is it your understanding that from and around 2008 Clubs Australia held the public position that they wanted a separate award for the clubs industry?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1822

And post the making of the modern award in 2010, clubs award, it continued to hold the position that it wanted a separate award for the clubs industry?‑‑‑That is my understanding, yes.

PN1823

The first of the award reviews was the interim review in 2012. Throughout that process in 2012 they continued to hold the view that they wanted their own and separate award?‑‑‑That is my understanding, yes.

PN1824

Come 2014 and the start of the first four yearly review they continued to hold the view that they wanted their own and separate award, correct?‑‑‑That's my understanding, yes.

PN1825

And the penalty rates case, and of course you would be well and truly familiar with, that ran through 2016 and 2017 throughout all of that Clubs Australia continued to hold the view that they wanted their own and their own separate award?‑‑‑That's my understanding, yes.

PN1826

They have publicly stated a number of reasons for holding that position?‑‑‑Yes, I'm aware of that, yes.

PN1827

Including all the way back to the award modernisation process?‑‑‑I'm not aware of those particular comments because they're before I started.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1828

I will put to you the submissions they made, and you can tell me whether up until the application in this case that is a view that they continued to hold, to the best of your knowledge as the government relations manager for Queensland, they put to the Industrial Relations Commission that the clubs industry was a separate and distinct industry for the following reasons: clubs are not for profit organisations?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN1829

That's a view that they continued to hold, and I assume continue to hold today?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1830

As best as you are able to say not being employed by them. They put a view that in many regional areas employees of community clubs are multi skilled and that they perform work across a range of functions such as clerical, green keeping and counter service?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1831

That's a view that they consistently held and hold?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1832

Up until the end of your employment. They put the position clubs offer a variety of sports activities and entertainment for its patrons and members that are not normally offered at other hospitality venues?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1833

Clubs are community-based and community run organisations?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1834

When you're saying "Yes" I should be clear what I'm asking you is that's a view that they held throughout your employment with Clubs Australia?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1835

Thank you. Fifthly, clubs are established on the basis of interest mutuality?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1836

Clubs are subject to separate and distinct regulations and regulatory framework?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1837

Clubs are required to adopt a set of rules, a constitution, subject to the provisions of the applicable regulatory framework, such regulatory framework means that the clubs are subject to control by members and only members and bona fide visitors can avail themselves of the facilities, correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1838

Each club is committed to maximising local support and offering affordable social opportunities in a fun, safe and friendly environment in order to raise funds in furtherance of their community objectives, correct?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1839

Employees of clubs provide a service to their members which goes beyond the service provided in a commercial establishment, correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1840

Thank you. I take it it is uncontroversial to say that clubs in Queensland, the area where you had your expertise, come in a variety of sizes?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN1841

You might have a very large leagues club at one end with a number of hospitality facilities?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1842

At the other you might have a golf club with a handful of members and no restaurant of any kind?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1843

All right, and I take it it is also uncontroversial that clubs employ people that do work other than just hospitality work?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN1844

Examples have been talked about in this case but childcare workers, for example, are employed by clubs in Queensland?‑‑‑There are some clubs with childcare facilities.

PN1845

No doubt, clubs in Queensland employ professional golfers?‑‑‑I'm unaware of professional, the classification of it as professional golfer personally, but I am aware of golf clubs do employ personnel.

PN1846

Well perhaps if we take professional out to make it easier for us both, clubs employ people that are employed to either teach or play golf?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1847

Those people would not be doing any hospitality work, of course?‑‑‑They may in some cases, if it is a smaller club.

PN1848

All right, not to your knowledge?‑‑‑No.

PN1849

All right. Fitness instructors?‑‑‑Those clubs that have gyms, yes.

PN1850

All right. Surf lifesavers are employed in the surf lifesaving clubs in Queensland, no doubt?‑‑‑Professional surf lifesavers? Paid employees?

PN1851

Paid employees?‑‑‑I am unsure if they have paid surf lifesavers or if they are all volunteers.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1852

You don't know?‑‑‑No, I don't. I don't (indistinct).

PN1853

Thank you. What is clear though, and I think you agreed to this proposition earlier, is that there's a number of classifications of employees outside of people who do hospitality that are employed in big and small clubs throughout your state, Queensland?‑‑‑Yes, that would be correct.

PN1854

You have given some evidence about that I could broadly describe as the viability of clubs in Queensland and some of the gaming issues that might arise, and you have, I think in your evidence this morning, made some reference to the KPMG census?‑‑‑Yes, or club census 2015.

PN1855

Yes, all right. Can I just give you a copy of that just for reference so that anything that you wanted to see from it you can and some parts that I want to take you to I will, and I think the Commission, no doubt, is becoming familiar with annexure NM1, that's the annexure number. You're aware that one of the things this does is provide an overview of national results and then deals separately with the different states, correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1856

Right, and I take it you're most familiar with that part of it that deals with the Queensland results?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1857

The overview of those results commences on page 30 and there's a table there that we've seen for the other states that deals with the change in industry structure and I just want you to confirm for us, are you looking at table seven on the right hand column of page 30?‑‑‑Changes in industry structure Queensland?

PN1858

Yes, yes. It charts the change in structure from the 2011 census to the 2015 census but if you could concentrate on the 2015 column, what we should take, reading from the bottom up, is that there are 35 clubs that earn more than $10 million in electronic gaming machine revenue. Is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1859

Thirty clubs that earn between $5 and $10 million in gaming revenue – sorry, in revenue from electronic gaming machines?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1860

Eighty one in the $1 to $5 million category, correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1861

All right, and so on up that column?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1862

All right, and what we're not told, because it doesn't further delineate above $10 million, is how many might earn above $20 million or above $30 million but is it fair to say that there are a number of clubs in your state that earn in excess of $30 million revenue from electronic gaming machines?‑‑‑Yes, there would be a limited number, yes.

PN1863

All right, and can you tell us some of those? Broncos might be one of those?‑‑‑Not at the moment, no.

PN1864

You don't think they'd be earning more than 30?‑‑‑No.

PN1865

All right. Well maybe we might have a look at their 2017 annual financial statements. Handing you a document, please. Have you seen this before?‑‑‑Not this report.

PN1866

Can I ask you to turn to page 24 that deals with the statement of comprehensive income?‑‑‑Page 24, year ending 31 December 2017?

PN1867

That's right, yes, and you'll see under operations there's an item for the sale of goods and an item for the rendering of services. We've seen elsewhere that rendering of services is almost completely constituted by electronic gaming machine revenue. Is that your understanding?‑‑‑I can't give that undertaking.

PN1868

All right. Do you see the 2017 figure for the Broncos of $34,497,780 next to rendering of services?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1869

I put to you that the significant portion of that is made up of gaming machine revenue. Are you able to say?‑‑‑No, I'm not able to say.

PN1870

You'll see there's an increase from their 2016 rendering of services figure of $3 million, do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1871

Does that accord with your understanding of the performance of the Broncos Leagues Club?‑‑‑I just wish to clarify, are we talking about the Broncos football club or the leagues club, this report, because they're separate entities.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1872

Well I'm suggesting to you that this is the income of the leagues club. If you want to tell me otherwise, please do so. If you don't know, feel free to say so?‑‑‑I think this refers to the Broncos, the group, and I don't know if that's broken down between their football club operations or their leagues club operations. I can't see that level of detail in this report.

PN1873

You don't know - - -?‑‑‑No.

PN1874

- - - from this report. All right, thank you. I think we got to this point because I was asking you about whether there are a number of clubs that would exceed $30 million in electronic gaming machine revenue and I think you agreed with me that there are some?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1875

All right. Would that include not only some leagues clubs but some RSLs as well?‑‑‑Yes, there are some large scale RSLs in operation.

PN1876

I think you mentioned before in reference to Chermside, Wavell Kedron?‑‑‑Kedron-Wavell.

PN1877

Thank you, clearly not a local, Kedron-Wavell is one that you'd put in the large category?‑‑‑Yes, large successful club, yes.

PN1878

All right, and one you'd expect to be earning in excess of $30 million from electronic gaming machine revenue?‑‑‑Or close to that amount, yes.

PN1879

All right. Somewhere around that figure?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1880

Yes, all right. Can I just take you back to the census. I think we were dealing with the table and you see immediately following the table, there's a reference to the financial viability of clubs in Queensland?‑‑‑Yes, underneath it.

PN1881

There's an explanation of the context of the clubs industry and then the second paragraph, under the heading, says "As shown in figure 12, the financial viability of clubs has improved significantly since 2011", do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1882

That's consistent with your experience prior to finishing with Clubs Australia in Queensland?‑‑‑It has fluctuated since the census data.

PN1883

Well let's concentrate on the census period?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1884

The census is correct from your experience?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1885

For the 2011-2015 period, there's a further explanation over the page, the second paragraph appearing on page 31, on the left hand column, "Overall the number of clubs in a flourishing or solid financial position has increased from 29 percent in 2011 to 35 percent in 2015"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1886

That's correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1887

Consistent with your experience?‑‑‑Based on the data from the responders. Understanding that not all clubs responded to the survey.

PN1888

Have you got some reason to doubt the accuracy of the Queensland figures because of the number of respondents to the survey?‑‑‑It does not give you 100 percent result for that, so it is based on that but the information that those clubs that did respond was generally of a good quality.

PN1889

I see, I see, and do you have any figures that you can provide the Commission as to the – you said it wasn't 100 percent. Do you know from your experience the level of reply for Queensland clubs?‑‑‑No, not off my head, no.

PN1890

You're not in a position to undermine what's said here about viability based on any non-return, correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1891

I take it the second sentence is also consistent with your experience whilst you were employed "In addition a number of clubs exhibiting signs of distress or serious distress has fallen from 53 percent to 41 percent", correct?‑‑‑At that time, yes.

PN1892

All right. While we're on the census, I just want to confirm from you, as best you're able to say, the employment figures, over the page on page 32, seem to record, or do record, I'm sorry, that the level of casual employees is 64 percent, you see that?‑‑‑In the figure 14?

PN1893

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1894

Again, that level of casual employment is consistent with your experience whilst you're employed?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1895

That level, I take it from what – sorry, I withdraw that. That level of casual employment has continued post-2015 to present?‑‑‑I wouldn't be aware of the exact figure, if it is still 64 percent, but casual employment is a part of the industry, yes.

PN1896

Without putting a precise figure on it, is it fair to say that it's still somewhere near the two thirds mark?‑‑‑Yes, close to that figure, yes.

PN1897

All right, thank you, and are you able to say or do you know, from your experience in Queensland, what the level of casual engagement is in the hotel sector?‑‑‑From memory, based on a report by PWC, I believe it is of a similar level.

PN1898

Just going back a page, I'm sorry to take you backwards and forwards, but just going a page to page 31 and the definition of their social contribution, you see there in 2015 volunteer labour was valued at $113 million, do you see that?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN1899

I take it that's consistent with your experience?‑‑‑There is a very large volunteer component of the community club sector - - -

PN1900

All right, but that has - - -?‑‑‑when it comes to delivering of services and activities.

PN1901

Thank you, I'm sorry to interrupt you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1902

That hasn't altered since 2015?‑‑‑No, it's a basis on how the clubs operate, yes.

PN1903

Of course, and I asked you to compare the hotel industry. I take it we can safely assume, in respect of the hotel industry, that they would not have a volunteer labour value anywhere near that figure?‑‑‑No, no. That would be correct.

PN1904

Perhaps they might have a volunteer labour figure of something close to zero?‑‑‑In just like regional centres, you do see hoteliers volunteering at football clubs and things like that.

PN1905

But negligible in terms of values compared with this?‑‑‑Yes, it's not of the scale and the co-ordination.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1906

Of course, thank you. I think there that identifies also cash donations on the same page, but in the bullet point and not immediately above but next above, that cash donations at the relevant time in 2015 was $45.9 million, do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1907

Two questions consistent with what I've been asking you, that's consistent with your understanding of the practice at clubs in 2015 in terms of the level of cash donations they make?‑‑‑Cash donations or grants to community, yes.

PN1908

That level of cash donation has continued, without you being able to put a figure on it, post-2015, correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1909

All right. You give some evidence when you were asked a question by the President about competitions with casinos and, again, I just want you to, as much as you're able, give us the picture for Queensland, the state in which you were employed. Firstly, I think your evidence is that more than 50 percent of Queensland clubs contain no gaming machines and therefore earn no revenue from gaming?‑‑‑Based on the current figures, yes.

PN1910

All right. Should we understand from that figure that those are not ones that are competing with the casinos?‑‑‑No.

PN1911

No. Sorry just - - -?‑‑‑No, they're not in competition with – because the majority of those will actually be in regional centres well away from the casinos.

PN1912

All right. That accounts for the majority?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1913

All right. Just in terms of those that do run gaming machines, and I think your evidence is that some hoteliers run gaming machines as well, it's correct that there are different fees and charges and taxes that apply between hotels and that apply between clubs, correct?‑‑‑Yes, and between casinos as well.

PN1914

All right. Can I provide a document to you as perhaps a summary and you can tell me whether it's accurate from your knowledge. Have you seen this before?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN1915

All right. You know what it is?‑‑‑Gaming licence and fees as outlined by the Queensland government.

PN1916

You're familiar with this document?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1917

Perhaps we can start with the gaming machine monthly taxes which appears on page four of 12, do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1918

That sets out for the reader the sliding scale that applies in licensed clubs for the gaming machine tax that is payable by them?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1919

Correct, but for hotels, it's the flat rate that's set out under that sliding scale, correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1920

All right, and that, you accept, is an advantage that clubs have over hotels in terms of the gaming machine tax that they pay?‑‑‑Yes, there is a difference between the gaming tax, yes.

PN1921

Not only a difference but advantage for the clubs?‑‑‑In taxation, yes.

PN1922

Right, and you see there's thereafter referred to the health services levy. Do you know what that refers to?‑‑‑It's an additional payment that – my understanding historically, that hotels were required to pay as part of a, what do they call it, community services for problem gamblers, things like that.

PN1923

As you understand it, that's an obligation that only applies to the hotels?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1924

All right. Is it fair to say that that's another advantage that the clubs over the hotels?‑‑‑On taxation, yes.

PN1925

All right, and when you were describing the competition between hotels and clubs in your statement, is there a reason you haven't identified to the Commission in your statement these taxation advantages that clubs get?‑‑‑No.

PN1926

Were you asked to do so?‑‑‑No.

PN1927

Were you told not to do so?‑‑‑No.

PN1928

You just didn't think it was relevant?‑‑‑It wasn't part of my statements, yes, that's right.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1929

But did you not think it was relevant to your statement when you are adding up all of the pros and cons and the competition between clubs and hotels that you might mention to the Commission "By the way, we get some tax breaks that the hotels don't get"? Did you think you might mention that, Mr Addison?‑‑‑Not at the time I was putting together my submission, no.

PN1930

Do you think it's relevant now?‑‑‑It may be if it's taken in the whole context of the industry.

PN1931

It may be?‑‑‑Well based on the evidence that was trying to be entered on the revenue from hotels per machine, you can see a clear differentiation.

PN1932

All right. You have attached and you were asked some questions about – sorry, before I do that, you were asked some questions about a document that was tendered for the first time today, this ClubsNSW briefing paper, and do you recall that document?‑‑‑The one dated 16 September 2015?

PN1933

Yes, do you still have it there, do you?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN1934

I think your evidence is that whilst you're employed by Clubs Australia in Queensland, you played some part in the preparation of this and its purpose was to lobby government because of the impending casinos in Queensland, correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1935

Look at our New South Wales experience before you do anything in Queensland was the lobby, effectively?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1936

All right. You have annexed to your first statement the Synergies report. Do you have that there?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1937

It's annexure 4 to your first statement. Can I ask you to turn to the second page of the document where there's a disclaimer, do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1938

It there says "Synergies Economic Consulting has prepared this report exclusively for the use of the party or parties specified in the report, the client", for the purposes specified in the report. Can you confirm for the Commission, please, who the client was in respect of this Synergies report?‑‑‑Clubs Queensland.

PN1939

All right. Not Clubs Australia but the - - -?‑‑‑Clubs Queensland.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1940

All right. They are the client and can I then get you to turn ahead to page 42 of the document and you see there it says "Mitigating impacts" and it provides "Currently the government has decided to provide an additional three casino licences with the Queens Wharf project already reaching contractual close. At this stage, there has been little consideration, if any, of the impact this will have on existing clubs and the communities they support". Do you see that paragraph?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1941

"The analysis in this report shows that the impacts on community clubs will be severe in the geographic regions where new casino licences have been approved. While it would be ideal if the government chose not to proceed with the issuing of additional casino licences outside of Brisbane, there are a range of potential concessions which can be pursued with the state government, including tax relief and regulatory change". Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1942

Thereafter, at 5.2.1, we get some explanation of the case for taxation change?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1943

5.2, some explanation of the case for regulatory change?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1944

Is it right to say that this document, consistent with the other one, is something that was used in your communications with government in your then role as government relations manager in Queensland to lobby them about how there might be offsets if there are casinos?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1945

This was your lobbying paper, correct?‑‑‑One of them, yes.

PN1946

One of them, all right, thank you. One of the things you say in your statement is that community clubs in Queensland play an important role in the social and economic fabric of Queensland, correct?‑‑‑Which point is that?

PN1947

Paragraph 16?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1948

I take it that having worked in the sector, the sector is important to you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1949

The terms and conditions that apply to club workers under the clubs award are also important for the operators of those clubs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1950

All right?‑‑‑But I clarify, their employees or – and the ‑ ‑ ‑

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1951

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1952

Yes, their employees. Consistent with that when the application in this proceeding was made Clubs Australia Industrial was careful to transport, as best as it could, all of the particular Clubs Award terms and conditions as they applied under the Clubs Award; correct?‑‑‑That is my understanding, yes.

PN1953

You're award that under the Clubs Award, the clubs' managers had a particular management structure?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1954

It was important for your members when you were employed that they continued to have that structure?‑‑‑For the club managers, yes.

PN1955

Yes. And there were differing provisions in respect of hours between the hospitality sector and the club sector?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1956

It was important for your members that they continue to have those hours provisions?‑‑‑I'm aware, yes, of that discussion, yes.

PN1957

It is ‑ ‑ ‑

PN1958

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Why was it important?‑‑‑The club managers had a particular view around their award. I wasn't involved in any of those direct negotiations around that. That was handled through the Clubs Australia Industrial people. So it's a clear differential in my role is in those discussions I wasn't involved. I was merely on the peripherals in nearly all of those discussions.

PN1959

Sorry, discussions involving who?‑‑‑Clubs Australia Industrial and the Club Managers' Association Those were matters that are handled by the industrial section.

PN1960

MR DOWLING: Well, perhaps to be clear, if I've misled you, I'm talking more broadly than just the conditions provided by the Clubs Award for club managers. I'm talking about the other conditions that apply to all clubs' employees such as those dealing with breaks, those dealings with hours, those dealing with makeup breaks, all of those things?‑‑‑The conditions, yes. The basic conditions, yes.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1961

Yes. It was important to your members whilst you were employed that they take over all of those things?‑‑‑That was my understanding that the intent that the uniqueness of our award or of the Clubs Award was to become – I'm not too sure what the technical term was, that it would be transferred across to the Hospitality Award.

PN1962

You wanted to retain the uniqueness?‑‑‑That is my understanding of the language of that award, yes.

PN1963

It might be that this is a repeat of the question that the Vice President asked, but why was there a desire to retain the uniqueness?‑‑‑Because we're clubs.

PN1964

And what does that mean?‑‑‑So you call it, as I said, ideology that, you know, we are different than hotels. We're not for profit. We're community based, to maintain that type of structure or, I suppose, image around it. But the original discussion I was aware of that there was a discussion around that the Clubs Award would become an annexure to the Hospitality. I don't know if that's the correct terminology in that and then things have moved on from there, but – and just to clarify from my position, I wasn't involved in the day-to-day nuance and negotiations around those discussions.

PN1965

But your understanding, from your membership at least, and leadership perhaps is that the leadership of Clubs Australia and the membership of Clubs Australia wanted to retain the uniqueness of clubs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1966

Yes. And that meant retaining all of the terms and conditions in the Clubs Award?‑‑‑Yes, that's my understanding. Yes.

PN1967

All right.

PN1968

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Except for penalty rates.

PN1969

MR DOWLING: That was my next question, your Honour.

PN1970

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that right, except for penalty rates?‑‑‑That is my understanding, yes.

PN1971

I mean, if you wanted to retain your uniqueness why wouldn't you just stay in your own award?‑‑‑I wasn't party to those discussions.

PN1972

Thank you.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1973

MR DOWLING: So what I am trying to ascertain is while you wanted to retain all of those terms to maintain your uniqueness it was important to maintain them all except for one, penalty rates. Do you have an answer to that question?‑‑‑The penalty rates after the decision was handed down by the Fair Work Commission, which differentiated, that's when the discussions amongst the Clubs Australia bodies came to what should they do next? How should they respond? The clear view was that the penalty rate decision had given hotels and other entities a commercial opportunity, an advantage.

PN1974

Were you a participant in these discussions? Just not the other ones?‑‑‑No feedback from this at the end.

PN1975

Right, okay?‑‑‑The awareness of the structure was that each of the States have a representative – either State or Territory bodies have a representative of the Clubs Australia Industrial structure, and my understanding, Chris Mossman, as the head of that, will be able to give you more detail as to how those discussions – because he had carriage of all of that.

PN1976

Is that as much as you're able to say about the decision to ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑And there was general discussion in the industry around what the impact would be amongst club managers and CEOs.

PN1977

Are you able to say if the Commission were to, as part of this application, not just provide you with the same penalty rates as the Hospitality Award but provide you with all of the other terms and conditions that's in the Hospitality Award, so those unique clubs provisions we're talking about would disappear, and you'd have a Hospitality Award, what the reaction of the membership of Clubs Australia in Queensland would be?‑‑‑Am I able to speak of all of them? I mean, there are a thousand clubs and their boards in Queensland or abouts.

PN1978

One thousand one hundred and eleven?‑‑‑Yes. There would some who would take a negative view if the Clubs Award was to disappear in totality, others might. But I am unable to give you a clear undertaking of what the industry's view would be.

PN1979

Can I just deal with another topic very briefly? In your statement at paragraph 23 you provide there an increase in - what you describe as an increase in energy costs. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1980

You say that community clubs in Queensland have paid more for electricity in recent years?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1981

You see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1982

Does it follow that any increase in electricity costs had a commensurate increase in electricity costs to hotels?‑‑‑Depending on their commercial contracts, yes.

PN1983

The example you give here about a large Brisbane based community club, you say, likewise, depends on their commercial contract; correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1984

Is the example that you're giving, Kedron-Wavell?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1985

We asked for some documents about this and you provided an email exchange. Do you remember the email exchange?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1986

That was an email exchange, amongst other things, between you and Lyndon Broome of Kedron-Wavell?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1987

Do you recall?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1988

Lyndon had been in communication with Power Choice trying to negotiate the most advantageous power contract?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1989

Is that his ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑They are a power broker is my understanding.

PN1990

That's right. Is that as you recall it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1991

Lyndon wrote to you and gave you a quick summary by saying "Paying now 7.92 peak and 4.81 off-peak. Proposed rates 13.51 peak and 7.47 off peak"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1992

Does that accord with your recollection?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1993

But Lyndon also indicated to you, is it correct to say, that, "We will try the market again later"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1994

So Lyndon was telling you that, "We've got a power broker and we are attempting to negotiate the outcome and we're going to go back to the market and see what we can negotiate"?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN1995

When Lyndon provided you with an estimate of a 25,000 increase it is correct to say that Lyndon had not accepted any offer from their power provider of choice?‑‑‑I can't confirm that. He may have that same day so I can't give you any answer on that.

PN1996

But when he gave the answer to you ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑In the earlier email, yes.

PN1997

And ultimately his example to you of 25,000 was in circumstances of the quotes that had been put to him by the energy broker?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1998

Correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1999

And you do not know, is it fair, you do not know what contract was ultimately entered into by Kedron-Wavell in respect of their power supply?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN2000

So you're not able to say whether Kedron-Wavell, in fact, saw an increase of $25,000 or not?‑‑‑Based on the data that was available to me at the time they would have, but I'm unaware of what they finally signed.

PN2001

I don't want you ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑It could have been greater.

PN2002

Can I just stop you for the moment?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2003

Because I don't want you to give evidence about what they would have suffered?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2004

I want you to give evidence, as best as you're able, your knowledge about what they did suffer, and is it correct to say that you do not know what they ultimately had to pay in additional, if any, electricity costs?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN2005

Thank you. I take it that some of these clubs that had a large number of electronic gaming machines, of which Kedron-Wavell would be one, they have a higher power bill, because these things take a lot of power to run, these EGMs; is that right?‑‑‑That's part of it. They're generally of a large scale, a footprint of the actual building or buildings.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN2006

Thank you. Just going back I was asking you some questions then about this application, and you gave some evidence about the view that was expressed about, I think I'm recollecting it correctly, the advantage that hotels might've got as the result of them achieving a cut in penalty rates versus the failed application by clubs. Do you remember ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2007

‑ ‑ ‑you gave some evidence about discussions that ensued about that issue. Are you able to say, to the best of your knowledge, whilst you were in the role of Government Relations Manager, Queensland for Clubs Australia, whether anyone in Queensland performed an assessment of any change in custom between hotels and pubs when the penalty rates changed as the result of the penalty rates decision?‑‑‑I'm unaware of any study into that.

PN2008

So people were concerned that the hotels might get some advantage, but as far as you're aware, nobody ever committed to study whether they in fact had achieved an advantage or how it might've materialised?‑‑‑I'm unaware of any study of that nature.

PN2009

Did you think it would be a good idea to commission one?‑‑‑That wasn't my role.

PN2010

Are you aware of whether anyone raised the possibility that such a study would be commissioned?‑‑‑That may be a matter to raise with Clubs Queensland and their board as the responsible entity for the clubs in Queensland.

PN2011

But nobody raised it with you, and you didn't raise it with anybody else?‑‑‑No. No.

PN2012

So when people were talking about a potential commercial advantage people were guessing. It was hypothetical only; correct?‑‑‑Possible and they could have also been working on their knowledge of the industry or their expectation, but there was nothing concrete done in a study that I'm aware of.

PN2013

They were speculating?‑‑‑Speculating, yes.

PN2014

Do you know when the first penalty rate differential took effect for the hospitality industry?‑‑‑It was approximately 12 months ago.

PN2015

1 July 2017?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON XXN MR DOWLING

PN2016

Do you know when the application in this proceeding was filed?‑‑‑No, I don't know that exact date.

PN2017

It was 28 July of the same year, 2017?‑‑‑Yes, my understanding, the Clubs Australia was given a period by the Fair Work Commission to lodge an application.

PN2018

I imagine you agree with the proposition that, even if somebody had wanted to go to the trouble, and it doesn't sound like anyone did, of estimating or finding some empirical basis for this difference that hotels had suddenly got themselves, nobody would've been able to evaluate that in the 28 days between 1 July and 28 July when this application was filed?‑‑‑I don't believe I have the knowledge to answer that fully.

PN2019

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think that's true of the Sunday differential.

PN2020

MR DOWLING: Yes.

PN2021

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Not the Saturday differential.

PN2022

MR DOWLING: Yes. Thank you. Just excuse me one moment. Nothing further, your Honour. Thank you.

PN2023

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Does any party opposing the application wish to cross-examine this witness? No? Any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON [3.31 PM]

PN2024

MR DIXON: Yes, thanks. Mr Addison, do you still have to hand the document titled Gaming Licence Fees and Charges that came from the Office of Liquor and Gaming Regulation of Queensland?‑‑‑Yes, the 2018/2019 version.

PN2025

Yes. Can I ask you to turn to page 9 of 12 that deal with the tax rate for casinos?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2026

Yes. Are you able to indicate as to whether you have any knowledge as to the reason for the different taxation regime that applies to casinos as against the machine gaming for licensed clubs and hotels as earlier referred to?‑‑‑My understanding is that was a political decision by the governments at the time.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON RXN MR DIXON

PN2027

Thank you. In the questions that you were asked about competition, and you answered a question, you said that they are more than 50 per cent of clubs, as I understood it, that had no gaming facilities?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2028

You went on to say in regional centres?‑‑‑Based – the majority of those are in regional centres.

PN2029

Yes. And can you indicate, do you have knowledge as to the size of the clubs in that 50 per cent category with no gaming facilities?‑‑‑By size do you mean economic size, membership?

PN2030

Economic size?‑‑‑Relatively small turnover. A lot of those would be a small suburban or regional bowls club with possibly a predominantly volunteer workforce. It's the nature of those clubs or small sporting clubs.

PN2031

And when you say relatively small in revenue, are you able to put a figure on what you mean by relatively small?‑‑‑Turnover of less than half a million a year.

PN2032

In relation to the questions you were asked about the KPMG 2015 census, you were asked some questions, on page 30, about the viability of clubs and, as I recall, you answered by saying the viability fluctuated since the census. What did you mean by that?‑‑‑The State of Queensland has been running what's been described as a – it's a three State economy. The south-east corner has been doing very well. The further north you get the economy has been of a less robust nature. A number of the reasons around that would be for the Townsville region the closure of the QNI refinery and the downturn in mining activity. In central Queensland we see similar trends amongst the clubs there in that as the general economy has deteriorated or plateaued out their economic viability follows. Clubs are not stand alone entities when it comes to economic change.

PN2033

So when you talk about the south-east corner, what are you referring to?‑‑‑That would be Sunshine Coast, Brisbane, the Gold Coast.

PN2034

When you talk about the Townsville area, and I think you said, Clubs tended to follow the downturn, or words to that effect, what do you mean by that?‑‑‑Well, if the economy of a centre or region declines you generally see less discretionary spend, and that's what's generally to be found in a club, so that would be going out for food and beverage. I've had some feedback from managers in those areas, that whilst the number of people coming to visit has maintained, their spend has not been as great as it was before.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON RXN MR DIXON

PN2035

What was the position in relation to central Queensland?‑‑‑It's similar. It has suffered an economic downturn with the decline in the mining sector. It's heavily reliant on that. So when, with coal coming off as a price, those clubs have started to have an impact on them.

PN2036

What would be the main centres in the area that you described as central Queensland?‑‑‑Mackay, Rockhampton, Gladstone would be the three major centres.

PN2037

Do those centres have any particular relationship with the mining industry ?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2038

What is it?‑‑‑They would be the – they're the service hubs and also where a lot of mine workers live in those areas.

PN2039

You went on to say in answer to a question about an improvement from 53 per cent to 41 per cent, at that time was your answer?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2040

What did you mean by that?‑‑‑We had seen, after 2015 there were some reasonable changes in the economy in Queensland, and we started to see certainly in the regional centres the decline accelerate a bit, particularly amongst the small to medium size clubs.

PN2041

Thank you. You were asked some questions in relation to employees in clubs, and in relation to employees in the childcare classification you said there's some?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2042

Do you have any idea of the numbers of clubs that have childcare facilities in Queensland on a more specific basis?‑‑‑No, I don't have the exact figure at the moment.

PN2043

In relation to leisure employees in Gyms you said those clubs which have Gyms. Are you able to indicate which or how many clubs, to your knowledge, have Gyms?‑‑‑No, not an exact number. No.

PN2044

May I tender the Gaming Licence Fees and Charges document, if the Commission pleases?

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON RXN MR DIXON

PN2045

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes. The document entitled Gaming Licence Fees and Charges 2018/2019 will be marked exhibit 18.

EXHIBIT #18 DOCUMENT ENTITLED GAMING LICENCE FEES AND CHARGES 2018/2019

PN2046

MR DIXON: If the Commission pleases.

PN2047

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Are we finished with Mr Addison?

PN2048

MR DIXON: Your Honour, I'm virtually finished. I just wanted to double check one thing if the Commission pleases. No further questions, if the Commission pleases.

PN2049

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you for your evidence, Mr Addison, you're excused and you're free to go.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.39 PM]

PN2050

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, how long do you think you'll be cross-examining Mr Docker for?

PN2051

MR DIXON: I've been a bit concerned about that. About an hour.

PN2052

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: About an hour? Yes. So if we took a 10 minute adjournment now, can we try to finish Mr Docker by 5 and then go straight to Mr Murray?

PN2053

MR DIXON: I will endeavour to do so. It'll be a bit tight. Would it be convenient if we just deal with the objections to his evidence?

PN2054

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes. All right.

PN2055

MR DIXON: May I hand up a list of the short number of objections we have in relation to Mr Docker's statement of 10 May 2018, if the Commission pleases?

PN2056

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you.

PN2057

MR DIXON: The Commission will see that the first objection is to paragraph 14, the second sentence.

*** GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON RXN MR DIXON

PN2058

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, Mr Dowling?

PN2059

MR DOWLING: Mr Docker is unique in this sense, your Honour, he's the first employee you're going to hear from, rather than the advocates of the association who is bringing the application. But for our part we thought this had fallen into that category where it deals with clubs, and if he's got some experience, in this case, running one, he's able to give some evidence about the uniqueness in the same way that the evidence was allowed ‑ ‑ ‑

PN2060

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The problem is it involves a comparison effectively with hotels, casinos and the like. What does he bring to the table about that?

PN2061

MR DOWLING: Certainly more than the witnesses so far, but I'm happy to ask him, your Honour.

PN2062

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: In relation to the second sentence of paragraph 14 we'll grant leave to adduce evidence to provide a basis for the statement otherwise it won't be admitted.

PN2063

MR DIXON: The last sentence of paragraph 18; that is clearly objectionable material. Your Honour ‑ ‑ ‑

PN2064

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Why can't he express that opinion as a club manager?

PN2065

MR DIXON: Our evidence was objected to on the ground that it was not relevant.

PN2066

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, what evidence was that?

PN2067

MR DIXON: The evidence of Mr Rees ‑ ‑ ‑

PN2068

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN2069

MR DIXON: ‑ ‑ ‑we answered this. The objection to his evidence was on the basis that in dealing with those items it was not relevant.

PN2070

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Of which items?

PN2071

MR DIXON: The comment about the proposal would create confusion.

PN2072

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: It was a ruling I have to remind you, Mr Dixon.

PN2073

MR DIXON: Your Honour said if Mr Docker is expressing the opinion someone can respond to it.

PN2074

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN2075

MR DIXON: But that doesn't mean, with respect, that ‑ ‑ ‑

PN2076

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Was the response admitted?

PN2077

MR DIXON: It was.

PN2078

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, all right. That sentence is admitted.

PN2079

MR DIXON: If the Commission pleases. And the third sentence of paragraph 19 is, in my respectful submission, outside of any of those categories.

PN2080

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dowling, what's the basis of the proposition about the history of non-compliance?

PN2081

MR DOWLING: I just want to confirm I'm looking at the right sentence. As I understand it's the third sentence?

PN2082

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Combining a distinct industry. It's that sentence, isn't it? Is that right?

PN2083

MR DIXON: And if I could say, the full sentence as well. I hadn't put it on the list, but I intend to, if the Commission pleases.

PN2084

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: It's the same flavour, I think, so ‑ ‑ ‑

PN2085

MR DIXON: Yes.

PN2086

MR DOWLING: Your Honour, again, he's giving the evidence as a club manager.

PN2087

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: About the history of non-compliance in that part of the hospitality sector outside of clubs? Where does that come from?

PN2088

MR DOWLING: Yes. If he has a basis for it I'll ask him.

PN2089

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, those two sentences won't be admitted.

PN2090

MR DIXON: If the Commission pleases. The next objection is to the last sentence of paragraph 22, but we recognise that it probably falls into the earlier category.

PN2091

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, that will be admitted.

PN2092

MR DIXON: And paragraph 28, the last sentence, it's not evidence, if the Commission pleases.

PN2093

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is it in dispute that a pay reduction would not be significant for those workers who were (indistinct).

PN2094

MR DIXON: The sentence says:

PN2095

The impact on other workers across the country who are not highly paid of having to move to the amalgamated reduction is very significant for those workers.

PN2096

The comment appears to be based on attachment G and one can only view that in relation to the analysis in attachment G, which is based on certain premises which we will seek to challenge.

PN2097

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I'll admit the statement. It can be tested against the attachment, but can I just note that we don't seem to have the attachments.

PN2098

MR DOWLING: I might see if I can do something about that in the adjournment.

PN2099

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So if we adjourn now, Mr Dowling, if you can provide them to my associate, we'll get them copied and distributed to the Bench?

PN2100

MR DOWLING: We'll do that, your Honour.

PN2101

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We'll adjourn now for a period of approximately 10 minutes.

PN2102

MR ARNOLD: If the Commission pleases, it's Greg Arnold in Brisbane, my apologies. I flagged with your associate, I've got a ‑ ‑ ‑

PN2103

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, you're excused.

PN2104

MR ARNOLD: Thank you.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [3.48 PM]

RESUMED [4.13 PM]

PN2105

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dowling?

PN2106

MR DOWLING: If the Commission pleases, I note that Mr Cooper who has been called as a witness by United Voice is still in the tribunal. I understand from Mr Dowling, he intends to stay during the cross‑examination of Mr Dowling's witnesses. I just wonder whether that is the appropriate course.

PN2107

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dowling, Mr Cooper, what do you say about that?

PN2108

MR DOWLING: It is correct. He is our witness, I think. As I understand it - and he can speak for himself - he also appears separately on behalf of the Club Managers Association of Australia, so in those circumstances it was our view that he couldn't be asked to leave.

PN2109

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That's right, isn't it, Mr Dixon? I can't make an advocate leave the Commission, can I?

PN2110

MR DIXON: Well, he has put himself in that position by being called as a witness by Mr Dowling. He did have a separate representative present.

PN2111

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, I think Mr Cooper is entitled to stay if he wishes to stay, but if you want to make at some stage a submission that the weight of his evidence should be diminished for that reason, you may do so.

PN2112

MR DIXON: If the Commission pleases.

PN2113

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dowling?

PN2114

MR DOWLING: Thank you very much, your Honour. I did not propose to open until it is that the applicant closed their case and Mr Docker is being interposed because of particular circumstances.

PN2115

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, all right.

PN2116

MR DOWLING: So in those circumstances I will just call Mr Docker.

PN2117

THE ASSOCIATE: Could you please state your full name and address.

PN2118

MR DOCKER: Robert Grimm Docker, (address supplied).

<ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER, AFFIRMED [4.16 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DOWLING [4.16 PM]

PN2119

MR DOWLING: Mr Docker, could you please repeat your full name?‑‑‑Robert Grimm Docker.

PN2120

Your address?‑‑‑(Address supplied).

PN2121

Your occupation?‑‑‑I'm the CEO of the Tradies Group in Canberra.

PN2122

Thank you. You have in front of you a folder. Can I ask you to open that, please. Does it have on the first page a document headed "Statement of Robert Docker"?‑‑‑It does.

PN2123

Is that a statement of 29 paragraphs?‑‑‑It is.

PN2124

Signed by you and dated 10 May this year on the last page?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2125

That is a statement prepared for the purposes of this proceeding?‑‑‑Correct.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XN MR DOWLING

PN2126

It has together with it a number of attachments, A through to G. Do you have those attachments together with it?‑‑‑I do.

PN2127

Are the contents of that - sorry, I'll let you confirm you've got A, B, C, D, E, F and G?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN2128

Thank you. Are the contents of that statement true and correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2129

Can I clarify one matter in respect of the statement, please, and ask you to turn to paragraph 14. Do you have paragraph 14 on page 3?‑‑‑I do.

PN2130

You see there in the second sentence it provides, by reference to the clubs in the first sentence:

PN2131

They are unique businesses that cannot be compared with any other business, including those in the hospitality sector.

PN2132

Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN2133

Can you please provide to the Commission your basis and your ability to compare clubs with other businesses, including those in the hospitality sector?‑‑‑Well, firstly clubs enjoy what is known as mutuality and no other industry sector or particular business in the hospitality sector enjoys that privilege which is bestowed upon clubs. That is the simple answer. Do you wish me to go further?

PN2134

Well, if there is any other basis upon which you are comparing the two or the uniqueness of clubs as against hospitality, please tell the Commission?‑‑‑I think it goes to my last sentence there where there is not just commercial demands. The nature of clubs, being what clubs are, there are membership considerations, membership obligations. Clubs are not for profit organisations and operate accordingly. That's why they do enjoy mutuality, so it does make them unique in comparison to other organisations within the hospitality sector.

PN2135

Thank you. There is nothing further, your Honour.

PN2136

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you. Subject to the rulings on the objections earlier made, the statement of Robert Docker, dated 10 May 2018, will be marked exhibit 19.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XN MR DOWLING

EXHIBIT #19 WITNESS STATEMENT OF ROBERT DOCKER DATED 10/05/2018 PLUS ANNEXURES

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON [4.20 PM]

PN2137

MR DIXON: Mr Docker, I want to ask you some questions in relation to the Tradies Group, as it's called?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2138

Canberra's Tradesmen's Union Club, is that associated traditionally with the CFMEU?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2139

It's now associated with the CFMEU?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2140

The board of Canberra's Tradesmen's Union Club includes, does it, as a member Mr Dean Hall?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN2141

Is he or was he the president of that club?‑‑‑I beg your pardon, I need to correct my first answer there. Mr Hall was a director of the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club and the Woden Tradesmen's Union Club up until 22 March 2018. He is no longer a director of either club.

PN2142

He is now an employee, is he?‑‑‑Correct.

PN2143

In what capacity is he employed?‑‑‑He is employed as a specialist project manager.

PN2144

He was previously, until early 2018, the secretary of the CFMEU ACT?‑‑‑Correct.

PN2145

He, to your knowledge, was an executive member of the National Construction and General Division of the CFMEU?‑‑‑That is my understanding.

PN2146

Other members of the club include Mr Jason O'Mara?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN2147

He was a director for over five years?‑‑‑Yes, he was.

PN2148

Mr O'Mara is currently the secretary of the CFMEU ACT?‑‑‑Yes, he is.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2149

He was previously the assistant secretary of the CFMEU ACT?‑‑‑Yes, he was.

PN2150

The members include a Mr Jason Jennings?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2151

Director for over five years?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2152

Mr Jennings is currently the president of the CFMEU ACT?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2153

Tradies Group makes donations to the CFMEU ACT each year?‑‑‑We provide funding for the CFMEU each year. Correct.

PN2154

Well, by "funding" you mean not a loan; it's a gift?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2155

So it's a donation?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2156

The Tradies Group comprises the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2157

It comprised, but as I understand it no longer comprises, the Woden Tradesmen's Union Club?‑‑‑That's not quite correct. The Woden Tradesmen's Union Club ceased operating on 8 January 2018, but the organisation as such or the company as such continues to exist. It's in a wind‑up mode at the moment.

PN2158

Yes, okay. The Woden Tradesmen's Union Club was part of the Tradies Group and it was in operation until early this year?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2159

It is being wound up at the moment?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2160

I will come back to that. The Tradies Group, does it consist of any other clubs other than those two?‑‑‑No, it doesn't.

PN2161

The Canberra Tradesman's Union Club trades as Canberra Tradies?‑‑‑Yes, we do.

PN2162

It has a web site?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN2163

It's web site is www.thetradies.com.au?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2164

You, Mr Docker, previously worked at ClubsConsulting?‑‑‑Yes, I did.

PN2165

You previously worked at ClubsConsulting for a period of at least eight years?‑‑‑Yes, I did.

PN2166

You previously worked as general manager at ClubsConsulting?‑‑‑Yes, I did.

PN2167

In that capacity that entity consulted to clubs?‑‑‑Yes, it did.

PN2168

It consulted to clubs in the ACT?‑‑‑No, it consulted to clubs across Australia through the industrial body of ClubsNSW.

PN2169

But also it consulted to clubs in the ACT?‑‑‑Yes, it did.

PN2170

I didn't mean to narrow it down. Thank you for correcting that. It consulted to clubs across Australia, as well?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2171

It consulted to clubs on the question of human resources and industrial matters?‑‑‑Yes, it did.

PN2172

As a result of consulting to clubs across Australia, you learned that clubs across Australia rostered more staff hours on Saturdays than on Mondays to Fridays?‑‑‑I don't know whether I necessarily learnt that during my days at ClubsNSW. There was a range of things which contributed to coming to that conclusion.

PN2173

Yes, I understand. As of now, you have no hesitation in saying, do you, that clubs across Australia based on your extensive knowledge roster more staff hours on Saturdays than Mondays to Fridays?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2174

On the same basis, you have no hesitation in saying that clubs across Australia roster more staff hours on Sundays than on Mondays to Fridays?‑‑‑Could you repeat that, please.

PN2175

Yes. Based on your experience and knowledge, you have no difficulty in confirming that clubs across Australia roster more staff on Sundays than Mondays to Fridays?‑‑‑I can't answer that accurately given the nature of the question. "Across Australia" means how many clubs across - - -

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2176

All right?‑‑‑The majority of clubs or - - -

PN2177

Well, would you accept the majority of clubs would do so?

PN2178

MR DOWLING: I'm sorry to interrupt my learned friend. It's not entirely clear. I'm concerned that the question might be misleading. Whether we're talking about the total number of staff or whether we're talking about the hours the staff work - - -

PN2179

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The Saturday question was directed at staff hours, Mr Dixon. Is this question along the same lines; the number of staff hours rostered was - - -

PN2180

MR DIXON: If I omitted "staff hours" in relation to Sundays, I apologise, and that's what I'm referring to. Clubs across Australia roster more staff hours on Sundays than Mondays to Fridays?‑‑‑I can't accurately answer that question.

PN2181

But you would have no difficulty in acknowledging, Mr Docker, that in the ACT there is a significant demand for rostered hours in clubs on Sundays?‑‑‑(No audible reply)

PN2182

Sorry, I withdraw the question. Let me put it differently?‑‑‑Sure. Thank you.

PN2183

In the ACT, the clubs generally roster more staff hours on Sundays than Mondays to Fridays?‑‑‑I can't speak on behalf of all clubs in the ACT. I can only answer the question insofar as that might relate to the Tradies Group and some anecdotal evidence which I might have on several other clubs, and the answer is yes.

PN2184

Yes. That anecdotal evidence extends to, may I suggest, quite a significant number of other clubs in relation to hours rostered for Sundays rather than Mondays to Fridays?‑‑‑I cannot confirm that.

PN2185

Canberra Tradies has three dining outlets?‑‑‑The Canberra Tradies now has two dining outlets.

PN2186

Bluey's Cafe is one?‑‑‑Correct.

PN2187

Essence restaurant?‑‑‑Yes, correct.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2188

What about The Canberra Wine House?‑‑‑That is a wine house. It is not a dining outlet.

PN2189

All right. We'll come back to that one. Are you aware of other clubs in the ACT that have dining establishments?‑‑‑Yes, I am.

PN2190

There are a range of ACT clubs that provide establishments for members and visitors?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2191

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: When you say "dining establishments", do you mean a stand‑alone restaurant or just any provision of food?

PN2192

MR DIXON: May I clarify that, if the Commission pleases.

PN2193

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN2194

MR DIXON: They would provide dining establishments in the form of cafes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2195

In the form of restaurants?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2196

In the form of bistros?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2197

There would be a significant number of other clubs in the ACT that provide any one of those three forms of dining opportunities?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2198

The Canberra Tradies has two bars?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2199

One is a lounge bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2200

And the other is a sports bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2201

Are you aware that other clubs in the ACT have similar bars?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2202

I mean, also have lounge bars and sports bars?‑‑‑Yes.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2203

Are you able to indicate that a significant number of clubs in the ACT would have one or more of such bars?‑‑‑The majority of them would.

PN2204

By the majority, do you mean - do you know how many clubs there are in the ACT?‑‑‑I think there's operating approximately 50 at the moment.

PN2205

So more than 25?‑‑‑Correct.

PN2206

And the Canberra Tradies has a barber shop?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN2207

Canberra Tradies has accommodation on site?‑‑‑Yes, it did - - -

PN2208

And the accommodation consists of a quality hotel?‑‑‑We trade as the Quality Hotel. Can I provide a clarification for all there, please? Our motel/hotel accommodation is certainly part of our overall business, but doesn't operate as such as part of the club.

PN2209

I'm going to come and ask you about that. It's a four‑star hotel?‑‑‑Correct.

PN2210

And when you say it's part of the club, it operates in association with Canberra Tradies?‑‑‑It operates in association, but it's a separate legal entity.

PN2211

Yes. Is it on your premises?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN2212

And it provides four-star hotel accommodation?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN2213

What is the form of that accommodation?‑‑‑There are 83 motel rooms.

PN2214

By reason of it being on your premises but not operating under your licence, if I understood you correctly, you don't have to be a member of your club to stay at that Quality Hotel, is that the case?‑‑‑No, you don't. You'd have to be a member, correct.

PN2215

You don't? So any person, any customer, could come along and stay on your Canberra Tradies premises, but under the Quality Hotel trading?‑‑‑Yes.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2216

COMMISSIONER HAMPTON: Does the Quality Hotel have a separate licence, as in a liquor licence?‑‑‑No.

PN2217

Thank you.

PN2218

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: And does Tradies actually operate the motel, or is it as it were outsourced?‑‑‑No, Commissioner, we operate the hotel ourselves.

PN2219

MR DIXON: Does that mean that Tradies Club employs the persons in the hotel?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN2220

And I take it it would employ those persons - does the hotel have a separate dining facility?‑‑‑No, it doesn't.

PN2221

Where does it serve breakfast?‑‑‑Well we provide breakfast in Bluey's, the café, or we provide room service to the motel guests.

PN2222

Are you aware of other clubs in the ACT that have accommodation on site?‑‑‑No - - -

PN2223

What about the Commonwealth Club, they have accommodation provided as part of that club's facilities?‑‑‑They may well do. I don't know the answer to that.

PN2224

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Docker, just going back to the motel facilities, are the employees there paid under the enterprise agreement referred to in paragraph 8?‑‑‑Yes, they are.

PN2225

Thank you.

PN2226

MR DIXON: Are you familiar with the Yowani Country Club?‑‑‑Yes, I'm familiar with Yowani.

PN2227

Can I ask you to look at a folder of materials, please? Can I ask you to turn to tab 4, and that appears to be the web pages and publication on the Yowani web page. You indicated you're familiar with that club?‑‑‑I'm familiar with the Yowani Golf Club. I'm familiar with the club itself where they provide food and beverage. I do recollect that there at some point in time accommodation. I am certainly not familiar with their accommodation.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2228

Sure, but that club provides a golf course and golfing facilities?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN2229

And dining facilities?‑‑‑I believe so.

PN2230

And function facilities?‑‑‑The best I can do there is I presume so.

PN2231

If you look at the second page of the web printout, talk about their functions?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2232

Having visited that club, you would at least be able to say, would you not, Mr Docker, that it has the facilities to put on functions?‑‑‑I bluntly don't know. The area for beverage and normal food is quite clear coming in from a round of golf, but thereafter it's not - I don't go - I'm not a member there. I have played golf there, but I don't go exploring the facilities as such, so I'm not knowledgeable about what their function space might or might not be.

PN2233

Yes, I'm sorry; it has dining facilities?‑‑‑I understand as such.

PN2234

And you have dined there?‑‑‑Many years ago.

PN2235

In a restaurant?‑‑‑Depending on how you define "restaurant," I would have thought - in my world I would see it as being a "bistro" is what I would describe it as, sir.

PN2236

Can I ask, are you familiar with the Canberra Club?‑‑‑I know of the Canberra Club, but I don't believe it is operating as we sit here today.

PN2237

The web page is produced, if I may suggest to you, you will see behind tab 3. Have you got any reason to believe that the Canberra Club has ceased operating?‑‑‑I believe the Canberra Club has ceased operating.

PN2238

Is that because, to your knowledge, it got into financial difficulty?‑‑‑No, my understanding of the Canberra Club, it was situated and operated out of a valuable piece of real estate that they chose to sell.

PN2239

And as a result, do you think it ceased operating?‑‑‑I understand it's not operating today.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2240

Do you have any reason to believe that they might re-establish on that real estate?‑‑‑I haven't got enough information to confirm that point, but what I do know of that piece of real estate, I would think it is highly unlikely that they would re-establish on that piece of real estate, but that's a view which is not necessarily supported with all the facts which I might need to be equipped to make an informed answer.

PN2241

You're familiar, are you not, with the Canberra Casino?‑‑‑Yes, I am.

PN2242

And you're familiar with the fact that the casino has accommodation on site?‑‑‑Yes. My understanding is adjacent to the casino, there is accommodation.

PN2243

Yes?‑‑‑I don't know whether they own that or not.

PN2244

Could I ask you to turn to tab 5 of the bundle? The Canberra Casino, or Casino Canberra, offers various food choices to visitors to that casino?‑‑‑I don't know the answer to that. I know they provide food, but I've dined there once in the last three years of a lunchtime and it was more of a restaurant adjacent to the gaming floor. The extent of what other food services they provide, I'm not knowledgeable of.

PN2245

You have toured the casino, I suggest? You've had a good look at it at some point in time?‑‑‑Yes, most certainly. You like to remain familiar with what's going on in your competitive world, yes.

PN2246

And the casinos are in the competitive world to Tradies Club?‑‑‑The answer is no.

PN2247

You said "in the competitive world?"---Yes.

PN2248

What competitive world are you talking about?‑‑‑Well I'm talking about the club world, the hotel world, the casino world as described. I don't see the casino as being a direct competitor of the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club by any means.

PN2249

You indicated that you needed to be on top of your - in the competitive world in the context that I was asking you about Casino Canberra, and it is clearly a competitor in the source of gaming revenue to an organisation such as the Tradies Club?‑‑‑In no way, shape or form is that the case. That is completely and absolutely incorrect.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2250

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I'm just trying to understand this. I thought you said you toured it at some past stage because you regard it as part of the competitive world?‑‑‑Yes, Commissioner. You can't assume that every place you go to is in actual fact a competitor. It is part of what I would do from time‑to‑time and remain across what is going on in the jurisdiction, and clearly people may perceive the casino as being a competitor. I'm aware of what they do and what they don't do, but when it comes to the actual analysis of whether they are a competitor to the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club, I categorically state they are not.

PN2251

MR DIXON: Some of the customers that might come to Tradies to have a meal and the dining facilities might well go to the casino?‑‑‑No, I'm not of that view at all.

PN2252

So are you suggesting that persons who visit the Tradies would never go to the casino?‑‑‑I'd be very surprised if many of our members are - and how you define "many" - but the answer is no, I don't see - and I stand by my original point - I do not see the casino in any way, shape or form being a competitor of the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club, at a food level, at a beverage level, nor a gaming level.

PN2253

That wasn't my question. My question is you're not suggesting that members of your Tradies Group do not frequent from time‑to‑time and spend money in the casino? You've got no basis for saying that, have you, Mr Docker?‑‑‑No is the simple answer from that perspective, but I think you've led me to a point where I'm not comfortable in saying that - what I'm saying is very, very few of our members would frequent the Canberra Casino.

PN2254

And the Canberra Casino provides accommodation, to your knowledge?‑‑‑To my knowledge.

PN2255

It's fairly extensive accommodation?‑‑‑It's certainly larger than the accommodation we provide at the Tradies.

PN2256

Yes.

PN2257

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Vis-à-vis the casino, where is the club located?‑‑‑Commissioner, it's located approximately five kilometres to the north‑east of the casino. So the casino is in the CBD of Canberra, and where we operate the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club in the suburb of Dickson is approximately five‑and‑a‑half kilometres away from where the casino is.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2258

MR DIXON: A ten‑minute cab ride?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2259

And to your knowledge, the casino has a private bar?‑‑‑I don't know the answer to that.

PN2260

When you toured it, you would have seen it?‑‑‑No. When I've toured it, I've been in and seen the bar in the public area. I'm not knowledgeable of a private bar, because I haven't seen it.

PN2261

Well what about the public bar, is it a large public bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2262

Of a similar kind to the lounge bar or the sports bar operated by Canberra Tradies?‑‑‑Yes, very similar.

PN2263

The Canberra Tradies has a gym on site?‑‑‑Yes, it does. It has a gym adjacent to the club.

PN2264

That's operated by Team Fitness?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN2265

Is that operated separately and in no way trading under Canberra Tradies' name, or does it trade under its own name?‑‑‑It trades under its own name.

PN2266

On the Canberra Tradies' site?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2267

And to your knowledge, it has separate industrial employment arrangements?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2268

Unrelated to the enterprise agreement that you referred to earlier?‑‑‑Unrelated to the enterprise agreement, correct.

PN2269

Does it engage what one might call fitness trainers?‑‑‑My understanding is that's correct.

PN2270

Did you say one?‑‑‑No, I said my understanding is that they engage - - -

PN2271

I'm sorry; I misheard you, Mr Docker. Are you aware of other clubs in the ACT that have a gym on site?‑‑‑I'm aware of one.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2272

Which one is that?‑‑‑The Canberra Southern Cross Club.

PN2273

Are you familiar with the Canberra Southern Cross Club?‑‑‑Only in broad ways these days.

PN2274

The offerings of the Canberra Southern Cross Club are similar to - does it have a restaurant facility?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN2275

Does it have a café facility?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN2276

Does it have a bistro?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN2277

And does it have bars?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2278

More than one?‑‑‑I don't know.

PN2279

Does it have a large bar equivalent to your sports bar?‑‑‑I just can't quite picture their sports bar. I could picture their lounge bar, so I - - -

PN2280

Yes, and is it a large lounge bar?‑‑‑Yes, it's a reasonable size.

PN2281

There's a relationship with Canberra Tradies - and you might have to help us here, Mr Docker - with Garden Centre?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2282

Is Garden Centre - what is Garden Centre?‑‑‑Garden Centre is a nursery, which includes a florist as well.

PN2283

On the premises of Canberra Tradies?‑‑‑Correct.

PN2284

Does that trade under Canberra Tradies' name?‑‑‑No, it trades as Botanicus Perfectus, I think, from memory.

PN2285

I'm sorry?‑‑‑Botanicus Perfectus, I think, is the actual business name.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2286

Is it simply a leasing arrangement between Canberra Tradies and the Garden Centre, or what is the nature of the relationship?‑‑‑In essence, it's a leasing arrangement, but we do have a separate company which runs the nursery, and we have a board of directors and some of my senior staff are directors of that entity, along with the people who operate the entity.

PN2287

Do you have a separate company of a similar kind that operates in relation to Quality Hotel on Canberra Tradies?‑‑‑As I said, it's a separate legal entity but we manage the hotel through our normal corporate governance procedures from directors down through the executive management/senior management team of the group.

PN2288

Yes, but what I was asking you is in relation to Garden Centre, you said there was a separate company?‑‑‑Correct.

PN2289

Is there a separate company in respect of the Team Fitness facility of the same kind that you operate - - -?‑‑‑Yes, there is.

PN2290

There is? So team fitness is run not by the club but by a separate entity?‑‑‑Yes, correct.

PN2291

What is that entity?‑‑‑I can't recollect the name, what they call themselves. I don't have the details.

PN2292

It's a separate incorporated company?‑‑‑That is my understanding, yes.

PN2293

And you can't tell us for the moment the name?‑‑‑No, because - - -

PN2294

I take it - I'm sorry, Mr Docker, I didn't mean to cut you off. I'm a little conscious of time. There would be no difficulty for you with the leave of the Commission to tell Mr Dowling the name and details of that company?‑‑‑No, no issues whatsoever.

PN2295

Is it a separate company from the Garden Centre company?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN2296

And do you know the name of that company?‑‑‑I think we call the company at the nursery, Two Peas in a Pod, and as I said the trading name, as I understand it, as I best recollect is Botanicus Perfectus.

PN2297

Could you provide those details, with the Commission's leave?‑‑‑Yes, we can do that.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2298

What about the Quality Hotel, does that operate through a separate company in the same way?‑‑‑The answer is simply this, is that we have a board of directors, an executive management team, and we have a component part of our business which is the Quality Hotel, as we trade as. That operates as a legal entity in its own right, if only because of the principle of mutuality which applies to our club services that understandably we have other than members who frequent and stay in the motel, and given that that occurs, the revenue and income and the operating costs of that entity are not subject to the extent of mutuality, as what club operations are, because it's largely non‑members who are staying in the Quality Hotel.

PN2299

The point I'm trying to get to, Mr Docker, is that in the same way as you have a separate company for Garden Centre, and a separate company for Team Fitness, the structure you've just described in relation to Quality Hotel operates through a separate company, is that the case? You may have a board of directors on it. I'm not concerned with them at the moment. I just want to know, it's a separate legal entity?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN2300

And that separate legal entity's name is what?‑‑‑We operate just, the Quality Hotel. Again, I would have to check what the name of the legal entity deep down is, but we trade it as the Quality Hotel.

PN2301

And the Quality Hotel is a separate legal entity that some of the Canberra Tradies' board members sit separately on that board, is that what you were trying to tell us?‑‑‑No, I'm not saying that at all.

PN2302

It's got as separate board entirely?‑‑‑No, it doesn't. It is operated by the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club board of directors through the executive of the club, and we manage it; my point being, with the greatest respect, is that there's a legal entity, which is our motel accommodation, and we operate both the club and the motel with our financial reporting and all the things we normally do. The board of directors of the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club has responsibility for that entity.

PN2303

But that separate entity, that separate legal entity, has separate directors?‑‑‑No, it doesn't.

PN2304

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: When you say it's an entity, is it a separate company or not?‑‑‑Yes, it's a separate company, Commissioner.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2305

MR DIXON: Who are the directors of that company?‑‑‑For all intents and purposes, the only answer I can provide is the directors of the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club.

PN2306

They are also directors of that company?‑‑‑Well, again, I need to take that on notice, because I can't give you an accurate answer.

PN2307

I understand. But you could provide that information readily overnight to Mr Dowling, with the Commission's leave?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN2308

I take it then that the Quality Hotel, operated through company ABC - let's call it that for the moment - would have then a commercial arrangement with Canberra Tradies, the club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2309

Let's go to Canberra Tradies for the moment - I'm sorry, before I do that, the Woden Tradesmen's Union Club, it ceased trading in January 2018?‑‑‑Correct.

PN2310

The club has not yet been wound up. Under whose management was it?‑‑‑Well it was under the management of the Woden Tradesmen's Union Club board of directors and the executive of the Canberra Tradies group, being myself as the CEO of the group.

PN2311

Why did it cease trading in January 2018?‑‑‑Over a two/three‑year period, it became clearly obvious that the returns we might make for our membership out of the Woden Tradesmen's Union Club were declining; secondly, the competition in the immediate area, be it the Hellenic Club of Canberra and the Southern Cross Club of Canberra, and the scale of those businesses, made it very hard for us to see a future in competing given the scale; thirdly, like all things in business, and representing our membership base, you look for opportunity to grow your overall asset base and for the benefit of members, and the view of the board of directors of the Woden Tradesmen's Union Club was that to sell the site and to close the business.

PN2312

I take it that every effort was made to keep it trading?‑‑‑Yes, it was.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2313

What measures did you take to try and keep it trading?‑‑‑Well, it had a number of cost centres to it. There was significant marketing work done over a long period of time. There was a focus on three things: there was a focus on infrastructure, there was a focus on product, and there was a focus on customer service, and underpinning those three pillars was a large focus on ensuring that we communicated our message to our membership base, grow our membership base. We have taken all the initiatives that we took over several years there, but there was no indication towards the end of the Woden Tradesmen's Union Club that we should maintain the business, because the yields we were getting out of the club would be less than what we got if we were to invest differently.

PN2314

So notwithstanding all those efforts, you were not able to increase the declining revenues to make it a viable ongoing club, is that how I understand your evidence to be?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2315

And it was asset-rich, that club? It had a site that was worth selling?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2316

What happened to the assets?‑‑‑The assets are in the course, as legislation permits in Canberra, for those assets to be transferred to another like‑minded organisation, and what that means practically is those assets are in the process of being transferred to the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club, the reason being the ordinary member of the Woden Tradesmen's Union Club is exactly the same ordinary member of the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club.

PN2317

I don't mean this in a pejorative sense; the Tradies Club has been enriched by that asset coming into its asset base?‑‑‑It has been consolidated.

PN2318

All right. What happened to the staff of the Woden Club?‑‑‑A number of things. Firstly, where possible, we transferred, re‑engaged, those staff at the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club. Where we were unable to do that, we went through a process of providing redundancies and all the other things which a good organisation would provide. With re-skilling, re-training, we erred on the side of generosity in the way in which we treated all of our staff.

PN2319

I take it for some of those employees, they would have - because of their training or usual classifications - would have been able to find jobs in pubs and hotels in hospitality servicing?‑‑‑How do I answer that, because - - -?

PN2320

Sorry. You have knowledge of some employees being employed, who have left that club, being employed by pubs and hotels?‑‑‑I have no knowledge of that whatsoever.

PN2321

But they would have been well‑equipped for that type of employment in a bar, in a pub, and in a bar in a hotel?‑‑‑I would hope so.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2322

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What do you want to do, Mr Dixon? Shall we go to Mr Murray and return to Mr Docker tonight, or keep going with Mr Docker and Mr Murray can wait a little while?

PN2323

MR DIXON: Your Honour, I have a little way to go. I don't want to inconvenience Mr Docker too much, but it's just the question of the video booking that has been made with London, and I wonder whether if that is put off for too long then the time might run out there. Would it be acceptable to everyone, and of course the Commission, that Mr Docker stands down and we deal with Mr Murray, and then I can complete the cross‑examinations? Otherwise it would have to be tomorrow.

PN2324

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dowling, is it convenient that we stand‑down Mr Docker for a period while we deal with Mr Murray?

PN2325

MR DOWLING: I might have to ask Mr Docker that question. There's some personal health issues that I don't want to raise with the tribunal that are important to Mr Docker, which is one of the reasons he is being interposed. So I'd like to - - -

PN2326

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All I really need to know is whether it would be better for him to finish tonight at whatever time, or to come back tomorrow. That's all I want to know.

PN2327

MR DOWLING: I would like to ask him without - are you happy for me to ask him, your Honour?

PN2328

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: You mean ask him privately?

PN2329

THE WITNESS: I am quite happy to, if you wish, Commissioner. I have got a flight back to Canberra tonight which can be changed, but, look, I'm in the middle of a chemotherapy process. There's a number of things I have to do with the preparation for my Thursday fuelling, which comes about tomorrow in Canberra, so I am placed in those circumstances, I apologise.

PN2330

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is it more convenient if you, whatever happens, finish today and then fly home tonight?‑‑‑I believe so and I believe I can have colleagues rearrange flights and so forth.

PN2331

MR DOWLING: That is acceptable with us. I just wanted to make sure it was with Mr Docker.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2332

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. How long do you think we will be with Mr Murray? Are there objections and all that sort of thing again?

PN2333

MR DOWLING: I might let Ms Burke answer that question.

PN2334

MS BURKE: Less than an hour.

PN2335

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN2336

MS BURKE: It will depend to some degree on the extent of the rulings on the objections.

PN2337

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Obviously you will have taken into account the previous rulings. What we will do is we will just take a short adjournment, we will stand Mr Docker down until later this evening, hopefully not too long, we will hear Mr Murray's evidence and, as soon as he is on the video, we will resume. We will now adjourn.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [5.02 PM]

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [5.02 PM]

RESUMED [5.07 PM]

PN2338

THE ASSOCIATE: Mr Murray, can you please state your full name and address.

PN2339

MR MURRAY: Neil Steven Murray, (address supplied).

<NEIL STEVEN MURRAY, AFFIRMED [5.08 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GOTTING [5.08 PM]

PN2340

MR GOTTING: Your Honour, there are two statements of Mr Murray. The first is dated 23 October 2017 and it comprises 61 paragraphs and it has been signed by Mr Murray on the last page. There is also an annexure NM-1 that goes with that statement.

PN2341

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN2342

MR GOTTING: There's a series of objections that have been raised by United Voice. I understand the objections have been handed up earlier. Can I endeavour to deal with some of those objections in light of the rulings that have earlier been made?

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XN MR GOTTING

PN2343

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN2344

MR GOTTING: Your Honour, the first objection is to paragraph 23. In light of the previous indications of the tribunal, I seek leave to establish the basis of the matter that is addressed in that paragraph insofar as it relates to the offerings in a typical pub or other hospitality venue.

PN2345

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. The time this is taking may mean that we might have to take a more strict view of these matters, since the witness after lunch took 55 minutes, on my reckoning, to deal with the objections and the additional evidence, but, anyway, go ahead.

PN2346

MR GOTTING: The next objection relates to paragraph 24 through - - -

PN2347

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I have no 24.

PN2348

MR GOTTING: Sorry, 25 to 31 and there are similar objections in 32 to 39 and 40 to 47. In each of those paragraphs, the witness sets out the operating hours, the nature of the establishments, the employment numbers and matters of that kind. I am not quite sure of the basis of the objection, but it concerns - - -

PN2349

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Murray, in your first statement, you give some detailed evidence about the Chermside Park Country Club, the Broadmeadows Sporting Club and the Mulgrave Country Club. How are you familiar with the operating details of those clubs?‑‑‑I'm generally familiar with them just in the course of my duties. I know each of the clubs well, I know their geography, I know their personnel and I know the boards of those clubs, but in this particular case, I solicited this information directly from the managers general of the three clubs.

PN2350

Yes, all right, those paragraphs will be - - -?‑‑‑And - - -

PN2351

That is sufficient. Those paragraphs will be admitted.

PN2352

MR GOTTING: There is an objection, at least on the paper, to paragraphs 48 and 49, but I am told that those objections have been withdrawn.

PN2353

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XN MR GOTTING

PN2354

MS BURKE: That's correct.

PN2355

MR GOTTING: There is an objection next to paragraph 50. In light of the earlier rulings, I seek to address by way of leave the comparison that is referenced in that paragraph.

PN2356

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN2357

MR GOTTING: Paragraphs 51 to 55 are of a similar kind. They seem to relate to the basis of the knowledge of the deponent of the matters that are set out in those paragraphs and I seek leave to deal with that in the same way as paragraph 50.

PN2358

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN2359

MR GOTTING: The next objection, as I understand it, is in paragraph 57 and it is to the end of that paragraph and it comprises the phrase, "Despite the fact that the work being performed is essentially identical." I do not read that phrase. I do not read paragraph 58. I will need to explore the basis of paragraph 59 with the witness and I seek leave to do so. I do not read paragraphs 60 and 61.

PN2360

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN2361

MR GOTTING: That deals with the first statement. There is a supplementary statement dated - - -

PN2362

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I will mark that. The statement of Neil Murray dated 23 October 2017 will be marked exhibit 20.

EXHIBIT #20 WITNESS STATEMENT OF NEIL STEVEN MURRAY DATED 23/10/2017

PN2363

MR GOTTING: Thank you, your Honour. I am sorry to do this, your Honour. Can I trouble the Commission to go back to exhibit 20 and in particular to paragraph 59. The first eight words of paragraph 59 are not read, that is the phrase "Also in competition with clubs in Victoria is".

PN2364

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What is left isn't a sentence.

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XN MR GOTTING

PN2365

MR GOTTING: I read the word "incorporating" as "incorporates".

PN2366

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Gotting, I think we know that the Crown includes the casino.

PN2367

MR GOTTING: Okay. Subject to reading paragraph 59 in that way, the objection to paragraph 59 is not pressed, according to Ms Burke.

PN2368

MS BURKE: That's correct.

PN2369

MR GOTTING: Could I then ask the members of the Commission to go to the supplementary statement dated 7 June, which comprises 36 paragraphs and is signed by Mr Murray on the last page. There's a series of objections which, in my submission, are of a similar kind to the earlier that have been the subject of the earlier rulings. The first is the phrase, "I deny that this is the case" in paragraph 6. In my submission, that has been the subject of - - -

PN2370

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, that will be admitted.

PN2371

MR GOTTING: Thank you. The next one is that phrase in the first sentence of paragraph 7, "I deny that the proposed merged award will be confusing to management." In my submission, that is the subject - - -

PN2372

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That will be admitted.

PN2373

MR GOTTING: The next objection is to paragraph 10. This matter is responding to the evidence of Mr Docker. In paragraphs 14 and 15 of Mr Docker's statement, there is a denial of the position that there are competitive offerings and Mr Murray takes issue with that and does so in this paragraph. In that sense, it is responsive to the position of Mr Docker and, in my submission, it ought to be read and admitted into evidence.

PN2374

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, that will be admitted.

PN2375

MR GOTTING: The objections to paragraphs 11, 12 and 13 are all of the same kind and, in my submission, they ought to be the subject of the same ruling as the earlier rulings.

PN2376

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, those paragraphs will be admitted.

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XN MR GOTTING

PN2377

MR GOTTING: Paragraph 15 is an objection of a similar kind to that of paragraph 10, that is, Mr Murray is responding to statements of Mr Genge in his witness statement.

PN2378

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I take it those paragraphs will not be objected to?

PN2379

MR GOTTING: I think that's right. I am just - - -

PN2380

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Will they be objected to or not?

PN2381

MR GOTTING: Those paragraphs will not be objected to.

PN2382

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, paragraph 15 will be admitted.

PN2383

MR GOTTING: The next objection is to paragraph 17. That objection was of a similar kind to that in the supplementary statement of Mr Rees at paragraph 10. I should indicate to the Commission that the ruling was to strike paragraph 10 of the supplementary Rees statements. I press the material but I anticipate that the Commission will make the same ruling as earlier and strike out paragraph 17.

PN2384

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Paragraph 17 will not be admitted.

PN2385

MR GOTTING: The next objection is to paragraph 19. I do not read the phrase in the first sentence that:

PN2386

Clubs in Victoria which are not for profit operations compete with a much larger for profit hospitality and entertainment industry.

PN2387

But I read the balance of the material.

PN2388

MS BURKE: Your Honour, could I be heard on the balance of the material just briefly? This is subparagraphs (a), (b) and (c) to paragraph 19. What Mr Murray does here is describe a club and then one or two pubs that are nearby and the features of them. There is no indication of the basis for that evidence and, in particular, the last sentence of each subparagraph where he says:

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XN MR GOTTING

PN2389

On my understanding of the operations of all three venues, each employs kitchen and bar staff, such as chefs, cooks, food and beverage attendants, gaming attendants and guest services staff.

PN2390

He gives that type of evidence at the end of each paragraph. He is talking here about eight different venues and there is absolutely no basis in the statement, or there is nothing in the statement to explain the basis of that evidence and it should not be allowed.

PN2391

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, those subparagraphs will be admitted.

PN2392

MR GOTTING: I do not read paragraph 20 of the supplementary statement. The next series of objections is to paragraphs 27, 28 and 29 of the supplementary statement. The material that is set out in those paragraphs is based upon the knowledge and the experience set out in paragraph 25.

PN2393

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, those paragraphs will be admitted.

PN2394

MR GOTTING: The next paragraph that is the subject of the objection is paragraph 34. At the end of paragraph 34 is the phrase, "in an environment where they were at an obvious cost disadvantage". I do not read that phrase.

PN2395

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN2396

MR GOTTING: But I otherwise press paragraph 34.

PN2397

MS BURKE: The objection is only to those words that have been withdrawn.

PN2398

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: And 36, is that pressed?

PN2399

MS BURKE: It is.

PN2400

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That will be admitted.

PN2401

MR GOTTING: I should indicate, I only press paragraph 36 on the basis that it was what was said to the witness.

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XN MR GOTTING

PN2402

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN2403

MR GOTTING: And not any more, but perhaps it would be understood on that basis in any event.

PN2404

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, how much further cross-examination do you have of Mr Docker? I think we will have to set some time limits because we need to finish by 6.30.

PN2405

MR DIXON: Your Honour, my initial estimate was an hour and it took a bit longer to do some questioning. It might take a bit longer than half an hour.

PN2406

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We just don't have that time.

PN2407

MR DIXON: Yes, I'm trying desperately to accommodate. I have tried in my questioning.

PN2408

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Murray's evidence will have to finish by 5 past 6 and Mr Docker's evidence will have to finish by half past 6.

PN2409

MR DIXON: If your Honour pleases.

PN2410

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Gotting?

PN2411

MR GOTTING: I don't think your Honour marked exhibit 21.

PN2412

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, thank you. The supplementary statement of Neil Murray dated 7 June 2018 will be exhibit 1.

EXHIBIT #21 SUPPLEMENTARY WITNESS STATEMENT OF NEIL STEVEN MURRAY DATED 07/06/2018

PN2413

MR GOTTING: Mr Murray, can you hear me in London?‑‑‑Yes, I can hear you.

PN2414

Can I trouble you to go to paragraph 23 of your first statement, which is exhibit 20?‑‑‑Yes.

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XN MR GOTTING

PN2415

Could you read that paragraph to yourself, please?‑‑‑Yes, I have read that, Mr Gotting.

PN2416

Could you tell the members of the Commission, Mr Murray, the source of the matters that you set out in paragraph 23 of your first statement?‑‑‑Yes, in the course of my responsibilities as chief operating officer of Community Clubs Victoria, I had a constant communications with clubs about their business position, their employment practices and the range of support services, and that necessarily involved me in observations of their competitive positions and, of course, prior to that, I had worked at TabCorp where I had responsibility for what was then termed network development, which included the public face of hotels and clubs across the state. So, I have a very good knowledge of the service offerings of both hotels and clubs.

PN2417

You made reference to making the observations of the competitive positions when you were fulfilling your role at the CCV. What were the observations that you made?‑‑‑Generally it's true that clubs, with their community focus, their not-for-profit status, are unable to respond as rapidly and as competitively as the for-profit operations and this means that they are perhaps not as nimble in the field and, of course, not having a distribution requirement other than to their own constituency and without the profit motive, it is my view that hotels respond far more quickly and are able to do more things and, in fact, provide greater, shall we say - they are leaner in terms of the pursuit of the customer.

PN2418

Can I ask you, Mr Murray, to turn to paragraph 50 of your first statement, exhibit 20?‑‑‑I have it before me.

PN2419

Just for speed, could I trouble you to read each of paragraphs 50 through 54?‑‑‑Mr Gotting, this is reading to myself?

PN2420

Yes, please, I'm sorry?‑‑‑Yes, Mr Gotting, I have read them.

PN2421

Could you please indicate to the members of the Commission the basis or the source of the views that you express in paragraph 50 of your first statement?‑‑‑I return to what I said earlier. In the course of my interaction with our members, I was involved in wide-ranging and, in some cases, deep discussions in relation to their business position, which involved understanding their competitors and, of course, my previous experience with TabCorp had given me a very good understanding of the basic service offering.

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XN MR GOTTING

PN2422

If you examine each of paragraphs 51 to 54, is the same basis of your previous interaction with members, those discussions that you identified and the understanding of the competitive pressures, the bases for each of those paragraphs?‑‑‑Yes, and, Mr Gotting, I'm sorry, I failed to mention that, of course, I am very familiar with the physical surrounds of those places as well, having spent time in each of those clubs.

PN2423

Thank you. Can I then ask you to read to yourself paragraph 55 of your first statement, exhibit 20?‑‑‑Yes, I have read that statement.

PN2424

Could you identify the basis or source of your knowledge for the view that you express in that paragraph?‑‑‑Yes, I will return to what I said before, that it's based on my experience and my continual dealing with hotels and clubs in matters related to their business and, as COO of clubs with CCV, their competitive positions, employment practices, et cetera. The one thing I would say, Mr Gotting, is that in seeking to identify what is a "typical" club, that, of course, is an extrapolation of general data, but I think the ratio of employee numbers there, permanents to part-timers to casuals, is an accurate observation.

PN2425

Thank you. Those are the matters in chief, your Honour.

PN2426

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Byrne?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BYRNE [5.29 PM]

PN2427

MS BURKE: Thank you, Mr Murray, can you see and hear me all right?‑‑‑I can, Ms Burke, thank you.

PN2428

Mr Murray, you have prepared two statements for this proceeding. In the first statement, you are giving evidence in your capacity as the chief operating officer of Community Clubs Victoria; that's correct?‑‑‑That was correct, yes.

PN2429

In your second statement, you say that you were formerly the chief operating officer of Community Clubs Victoria until May 2018 and you are now a consultant to CCV?‑‑‑That is correct, an honorary consultant, yes.

PN2430

An honorary consultant? What does that mean?‑‑‑I'm not a paid employee of the association.

PN2431

So what do you do in - sorry, I will start again. Do you do anything for the association now in terms of work?‑‑‑No.

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XXN MS BYRNE

PN2432

Are you authorised to speak on behalf of Community Clubs Victoria in giving your evidence now?‑‑‑I have been so authorised, yes.

PN2433

That applies to your second statement even though it was made after you - - -?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN2434

All right. Now, there are about 1430 clubs in Victoria. That's right, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2435

Sorry, Mr Murray, I should - - -?‑‑‑That's a reasonably accurate statement, yes.

PN2436

All right. I'm sorry, I should have in fairness told you that this wasn't a memory test and you can check your club census there at page 39?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2437

Which is where that statistic comes from. Of those 1430 clubs, your evidence is that 390 are members of CCV?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2438

I'm referring here to paragraph 10 of your first statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2439

What says in completion is, "CCV has approximately 390 member clubs that are employers"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2440

Did CCV have members who are not employers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2441

About how many?‑‑‑The approximate number is 700. 700 additional members.

PN2442

Do those 700 - are they part of the 1430 clubs in Victoria?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2443

There are at least 300 clubs in Victoria that are not employers?‑‑‑Yes, or they may be employers but not members of our association. In general terms, Ms Burke, that is correct.

PN2444

Okay. You have noted at - - -?‑‑‑There are many more clubs, Ms Burke, in - I'm sorry.

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XXN MS BYRNE

PN2445

No, please go on?‑‑‑The number that we're talking about here relates to clubs - through the census - that held a liquor licence. Of course there are many more volunteer based clubs, but the numbers you and I are talking about now relate to that 1430.

PN2446

That 1430, they are clubs that hold a liquor licence. Is that the situation?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2447

At paragraph 12 of your statement you have noted that the RSL runs 67 clubs, most of which are not members of CCV?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2448

I'm just trying to understand then, is it accurate to say there are about 700 clubs in Victoria that are not members of CCV?

PN2449

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: 700 licensed clubs?‑‑‑No, I think - - -

PN2450

MS BURKE: Yes?‑‑‑No, I would say that's not the case. Certainly the bulk of the 67 RSL services clubs, those that operate broad based hospitality, are not covered by membership of CCV. That is correct.

PN2451

Yes?‑‑‑There are a number of other clubs that for various reasons have chosen not to be members of CCV, but I think when we look at the number of 1430, the number of actual non‑members of CCV in that group runs to about 300, Ms Burke. That's just the way I'm seeing the numbers.

PN2452

Sorry, just tell me if I've got this right. You said earlier that CCV has about 700 members?‑‑‑700 members in addition to the 390 that you mentioned earlier.

PN2453

In addition to, okay?‑‑‑That was the question you asked - - -

PN2454

All right. I understand.

PN2455

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: An additional 700 non‑employer members, with licences?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN2456

MS BURKE: Okay. Thank you. Do you know if the other 400 or so clubs in Victoria - are they members of a different clubs association or they're just not a member at all?‑‑‑I am aware that some are members of some different associations. The most striking example is the 60 or so RSL clubs, who are members of their own licensed sub‑branch association. In addition to that, one or two clubs are not members but are customers of VCCI for IR and HR information.

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XXN MS BYRNE

PN2457

All right. Thank you. You worked for Community Clubs Victoria for about 11 years, so from 2007. That's right?‑‑‑Yes, in two iterations. One at CCAV which became CCV following the merger with Clubs Victoria.

PN2458

Yes. Sorry, I'm rushing through the detail. Please stop me if I'm getting anything wrong or inaccurate. Were you involved in the award modernisation proceedings in 2008 and 2009 for the Clubs Award?‑‑‑Not directly, Ms Burke, no.

PN2459

Indirectly, were you?‑‑‑We maintain a high awareness of it.

PN2460

Yes?‑‑‑I attended and observed hearings.

PN2461

All right. Are you generally familiar with those proceedings?‑‑‑I'm broadly familiar - generally familiar with them. Yes, Ms Burke.

PN2462

All right?‑‑‑I could not attest the detail of around them.

PN2463

No. Don't worry, I won't ask you to. Are you aware that since about 2008, Clubs Australia has maintained that clubs as a sector should have their own separate modern award?‑‑‑Yes, I am aware of that position.

PN2464

Throughout your employment by CCV until 28 July last year, they have always maintained that clubs should be covered by their own separate modern award?‑‑‑That has been their position, yes.

PN2465

The reason that has been given for that by Clubs Australia includes that clubs offer a variety of activities for patrons and members that are not normally offered to other hospitality venues. This is by way of example?‑‑‑(No audible reply).

PN2466

Do you agree with that?‑‑‑Yes. Sorry, yes.

PN2467

Yes?‑‑‑I was aware of that position.

PN2468

Yes, but do you agree with that; that is a point of difference between clubs - - -?‑‑‑I disagree with that position, Ms Burke, on the basis that the work - the provision of hospitality services and the competitor reach of both clubs and hotels in Victoria are very similar.

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XXN MS BYRNE

PN2469

What about the golf - - -?‑‑‑The work - sorry.

PN2470

No, I cut you off?‑‑‑In fact in terms of the hospitality extension it's so similar as to be identical.

PN2471

What about the non-hospitality parts, Mr Murray? What about the golf clubs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2472

Pubs don't offer golf lessons, do they?‑‑‑No, and there are certain - there are variations there, Ms Burke. The most striking example I could think of would be, for example, in maintenance and horticultural where bowling clubs and golf clubs employ people under the award for a generation of turf.

PN2473

Yes?‑‑‑That is clearly - in terms of the applicant, it's my understanding that those classifications have been preserved.

PN2474

Yes, I'll come back to that. You would agree, wouldn't you, that clubs are established on the basis of interest mutuality?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2475

You understand what that means?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN2476

There are high numbers of volunteers in clubs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2477

The value of volunteer labour in Victoria in 2015, according to the census, is $127 million?‑‑‑Yes. I'm familiar with that figure.

PN2478

Pubs don't have any volunteer labour, do they?‑‑‑In general, no. I would agree that they do not have - they don't depend on volunteer labour.

PN2479

You said earlier that the maintenance and horticultural employees with their special provisions in the Clubs Award at the moment that apply to those workers will be maintained in the proposed amalgamated award. That's your understanding?‑‑‑It is my understanding, Ms Burke, yes.

PN2480

Are you generally familiar with the terms of the proposed merged award?‑‑‑Yes. I am generally familiar with them.

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XXN MS BYRNE

PN2481

You understand that the club managers' provisions in the current award will be maintained?‑‑‑I am of that opinion, yes.

PN2482

That certain other provisions, including in relation to ordinary hours and meal breaks, they will be maintained or they are sought to be maintained. Are you aware of that?‑‑‑It's my understanding that is the case, yes.

PN2483

Do you regard it as important that any amalgamated award preserves those club‑specific provisions?‑‑‑Yes, I think it is important that that be done. In particular the club management structure, salary levels 7 through 13.

PN2484

Why is that?‑‑‑It has long been - perhaps I could go back and say that I think it's in the interests of the club industry in general to attract people who are committed to the long‑term success and sustainability of the sector. I think the management classification system provides a nominated career path and I think that is worthy of being retained and sustained.

PN2485

Are you aware that in deciding this application, the Commission could simply abolish the Clubs Award and alter the coverage of the Hospitality Award to apply to clubs so that all of those club provisions would not be carried over? Are you aware of that?‑‑‑I think I'm generally aware of the powers of the Commission. However, I guess my evidence has been made on the basis of the application, which I understand is for those provisions to be retained.

PN2486

Yes. It's your view, isn't it, that it wouldn't be in the interests of your members to remove those club‑specific provisions?‑‑‑That is my view, Ms Burke, yes.

PN2487

So your view is that all club‑specific provisions should be retained except for weekend and public holiday penalty rates?‑‑‑I think there are some other changes in the award. I mean, there are some combinations in terms of definitions of employment, et cetera, that have been made which I think are worthy of the changes, but in general the club‑specific provisions have been brought across to the new draft award.

PN2488

Your evidence is that a person serving food in a pub is essentially doing the same work as a person who is serving food in a club, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2489

That's because your view is serving food is serving food. It doesn't matter where it happens?‑‑‑There is a difference between serving food at various levels of - for example, fast food versus restaurant food versus bistro food, but my contention is that the service of food in pubs and clubs is so similar as to be identical.

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XXN MS BYRNE

PN2490

But not so similar as to be identical to fast food?‑‑‑No, although clearly some pubs and some clubs do offer fast food or takeaway food, but my contention remains that the work is so similar as to be identical.

PN2491

And not so similar as to be identical to serving in restaurants and cafes?‑‑‑No, very few clubs have restaurants in the way that table service - that's generally how it's defined. Very few hotels have what is called the restaurant - most operate what we would routinely call a bistro style.

PN2492

I see. You don't think restaurants really are comparable. It's much more about hotels?‑‑‑Well, I think the competitive position that I've tried to set out in my two statements, Ms Burke, is that clubs and hotels are competing for the same broad market - in the same broad marketplace in terms of their hospitality offerings.

PN2493

Of course that is only in respect of the hospitality component of the clubs workforce, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2494

It doesn't apply, that theory, to maintenance and horticultural employees. They don't do any hospitality work, do they?‑‑‑No, whereas, you know, in the hotel area gardeners, yardmen, et cetera, it's quite a different stream from the maintenance and horticultural employees which are involved in the production of high quality turf for, say, bowling and golf greens.

PN2495

Golfers and surf lifesavers, for example, they don't do any hospitality work?‑‑‑Well, it could be argued that golf professionals do, in that they are forward facing to the customer. In terms of lifesavers, no, I make no observation about that.

PN2496

Do either of those groups of people serve food and drink, Mr Murray?‑‑‑Some golf professionals do.

PN2497

How many?‑‑‑It's not a high number, but a number of clubs that do not have full‑time bistro and food service staff provide food outlets via the pro shop.

PN2498

All right. Now, I just want to ask you some questions about the examples that you have set out in your statement. Can you have a look, please, at paragraph 25. This is where you're talking about the Chirnside Park Country Club?‑‑‑Yes.

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XXN MS BYRNE

PN2499

In particular, have a look at paragraph 29. Can I ask you, the information about Chirnside that you've put in your statement, that came from you ringing up the Chirnside Country Club and asking them. Have I understood that correctly?‑‑‑I spoke to the general manager of the Chirnside Park Country Club and took down notes as she spoke with me.

PN2500

When you spoke to the general manager, did you tell her that you were obtaining this information for the purpose of putting it into this statement?‑‑‑Yes, I did.

PN2501

All right. Now, the evidence that you have given there at paragraph 29 is that the Chirnside Park Country Club, at least as at October last year, employed 50 staff, 38 of them on a casual basis. That's correct?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN2502

Then you go on to say in paragraph 30 that the Chirnside Park Country Club employs five managers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2503

If you read paragraph 30, you've got five employees classified as Clubs Award level 7 and above, so they're managers, and 45 employees at award levels 2 to 6. Does the 50 staff include the five managers?‑‑‑Yes, that's my contention.

PN2504

All right. Does it means then - - -?‑‑‑I think - - -

PN2505

Sorry, did I - - -?‑‑‑No, no. I'm sorry.

PN2506

All right?‑‑‑I'm finished.

PN2507

Okay. Does that mean then that of the 50 staff employed by Chirnside Park, only seven are permanent employees who are not club managers?‑‑‑I think it means that - yes, there are 12 full‑time and part‑time employees. Five of those are employed as club managers and seven, therefore, are full‑time and/or part‑time permanent employees. The remaining employees are - I think the number is 38. I can't see it on the page, Ms Burke, but they are casual employees.

PN2508

How many of those seven permanent staff work on weekends, Mr Murray?‑‑‑There would be - on a rotating basis, my view would be there would be five.

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XXN MS BYRNE

PN2509

Is that a guess?‑‑‑It's an informed guess. The general manager is of course on duty and on call at all times. One assistant manager I believe is engaged in administration, so it's Monday to Friday. The remaining five are mostly likely - I don't have the roster before me, I'm sorry, but are most likely to be working a rotating roster as duty managers during that time. That would involve weekend work.

PN2510

Did you not think that it was important to put this information into the statement, Mr Murray?‑‑‑Well, Ms Burke, had I known I was to be examined on it, of course I would have, but I'm reasonably confident with the judgment I've just made to you.

PN2511

Well, this application seeks to cut weekend penalty rates for permanent workers. In those circumstances isn't that the most important information, if this information is important at all?‑‑‑But, Ms Burke, I would contend that those people of whom we're speaking now are unlikely to be affected by this as they're being paid significantly over the award already.

PN2512

I'm sorry?‑‑‑Well, those managers are being paid - they're not being paid at award rates. They're being paid at above award rates.

PN2513

I'm sorry, I think there has been some - - -?‑‑‑I think in the case of - - -

PN2514

I think there has been some confusion?‑‑‑I'm sorry.

PN2515

I was asking you about the non‑managers?‑‑‑I'm so sorry. I did not understand your question. Could I ask you to repeat the question, please.

PN2516

Yes, certainly. Of the non‑managers who are permanent employees of the Chirnside Park Country Club, how many of them work on weekends? Do you know, not - sorry, just do you know?‑‑‑No, I don't, I'm sorry.

PN2517

Can I ask you now to look at paragraph 36 of your statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2518

Which deals with the same topic, but applying to the Broadmeadows Sporting Club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2519

You have got six permanent staff at the Broadmeadows Sporting Club and four of those are club managers?‑‑‑(No audible reply).

PN2520

Sorry, I'll just direct you to paragraph 38?‑‑‑Yes. I have it.

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XXN MS BYRNE

PN2521

So of the remaining - - -?‑‑‑Yes, Ms Burke.

PN2522

- - - two permanent staff who aren't club managers at Broadmeadows, how many of them work weekends?‑‑‑I can't say, Ms Burke.

PN2523

All right?‑‑‑Sorry, I don't know the answer to that question.

PN2524

Thank you. At paragraph 44, just to close the circle, that is where you have given evidence about the staff demographic breakdown at the Mulgrave Country Club, which employs 119 staff, 101 of whom are employed on a casual basis?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2525

There are 18 or 19 club managers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2526

So is it right that there are no permanent employees at Mulgrave who aren't club managers?‑‑‑Ms Burke, may I just take a moment to read those paragraphs again?

PN2527

Of course?‑‑‑Yes, I think that's - if you could ask me that question again. I think the answer is yes, but could you ask me the question again, please.

PN2528

Certainly. The question is, is it the case that there are no employees at the Mulgrave Country Club who are permanent employees and are not club managers?‑‑‑Based on the information before me, yes.

PN2529

You know, don't you, Mr Murray, that under the Clubs Award at the moment casual employees receive the same penalty rates as casuals under the Hospitality Award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2530

So does that mean that if this application is successful, the Mulgrave Country Club will not reduce its wages bill by a cent?‑‑‑It may lead to opportunities for more permanent employment, Ms Burke, but in terms of the numbers here and as you're describing the situation, situation (b), your observation would be correct.

PN2531

Can I ask you, please, to look at paragraph 27 of your second statement?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, I have it.

PN2532

Thank you. Do you say there with regard to the Mildura Working Man's Club, which has filed an objection - written to the Commission objecting to this application - in the second sentence you say:

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XXN MS BYRNE

PN2533

From memory, a large proportion of its employees are casual and therefore the penalty rate reductions in the proposed merged award would not apply to those employees.

PN2534

Do you say that because - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2535

- - - in your view that means what the Mildura Working Man's Club has to say about this application is irrelevant?‑‑‑No, I think I state it as an observation about the make‑up of the workforce.

PN2536

Yes, but the purpose of stating that - - -?‑‑‑It is true that - I'm sorry, Ms Burke.

PN2537

No, no, go on?‑‑‑It is true that the changes would have zero effect on the casual employees at that club and that is part of the point being made, but it's really to describe my knowledge of the club.

PN2538

But the purpose of your describing your knowledge of the club is to respond to the objection that has been made, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN2539

The reason you're doing that is because your view is that an employer that employs only casual employees, their view about this is irrelevant because they won't be affected?‑‑‑It has less effect on them, yes.

PN2540

So it would have no effect on the Mulgrave Country Club, for example?‑‑‑Yes. As I said, my view is, Ms Burke, that over time this will lead to opportunities for further employment, but in the current situation I think I've agreed with you already that the Mulgrave Country Club on the numbers that we have before us will not be affected.

PN2541

When you say if this application is successful it will lead to further employment, you're not speaking specifically of at the Mulgrave Country Club though, are you?‑‑‑No, I'm not, Ms Burke.

PN2542

All right?‑‑‑I am not, no.

PN2543

Now, can I ask you to look, please, at paragraph 19 of your second statement?‑‑‑Yes.

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XXN MS BYRNE

PN2544

What you're saying here is - have you got that there?‑‑‑I have it before me, yes.

PN2545

Just taking paragraph 19(a) as an example, you have spoken there about the Dorset Gardens Hotel and the Manhattan Hotel in Bayswater North?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2546

Did you ring those or speak to those establishments to find out what types of worker they each employ?‑‑‑No, but I know each of the establishments very well, not only through general knowledge of the hospitality industry, but just before I worked with CCV I did some work as a consultant which involved actually a survey of this area. I do know those properties in some detail, but I did not ring to affirm the numbers or the information that is in here. It's based on my knowledge of them.

PN2547

That is your knowledge formed in 2006 or 2007, so before you worked for CVV?‑‑‑And reinforced with regular visits during that - since that time.

PN2548

You regularly visited the Dorset Gardens Hotel and the Manhattan Hotel?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN2549

The Keysborough Hotel?‑‑‑Yes, I know it very well.

PN2550

Daisey's Hotel?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2551

The Croydon Hotel?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2552

This was in your professional capacity or otherwise?‑‑‑I'm happy to say in my professional capacity, Ms Burke.

PN2553

It is a fair way from (suburb supplied). What you haven't said in this statement is how many casual employees each of these establishments employ?‑‑‑No, I have no - I don't have any awareness of that.

PN2554

All right. You don't know what the workforce breakdown is?‑‑‑No, no.

PN2555

Thank you. I don't have any more questions for this witness.

PN2556

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Re‑examination, Mr Gotting?

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY XXN MS BYRNE

PN2557

MR GOTTING: Yes, thank you, your Honour.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GOTTING [5.57 PM]

PN2558

MR GOTTING: Mr Murray, you were asked some questions about the number of members of CCV that were employers and the number of members of CCV which were not employers?‑‑‑Yes, Mr Gotting.

PN2559

Could you just clarify the number of members that were not employers?

PN2560

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We clarified that. It was about 700.

PN2561

MR GOTTING: Thank you?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN2562

In the members that are not employers, how do they provide services to their patrons?‑‑‑Largely through volunteers; volunteering. Sometimes with council grants and local government support, but principally their activities are run by volunteering.

PN2563

Thank you. You were also asked some questions about the full‑time club managers at the three clubs you identify in your first statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2564

The first at paragraph 30, the second at paragraph 36 and the third at paragraph 44. At one point you said that it was unlikely that the club managers would be affected by the application for a merged award because they were earning well above award rates. What did you mean by that answer "earning well above award rates"?‑‑‑In each of the cases given the club managers will be employed at either the 20 per cent or 50 per cent thresholds - I think that's at clause 17 - that provides the employer with flexibility, but the other fact is that of course at that level - that's like the key function in terms of operations management, through those mid levels of management. There is competition for people - for good people, as well, and so clubs pay beyond award wages to secure the level of managerial competence that they desire.

PN2565

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Murray, if you have what you call the duty manager working on a weekend, typically that person you say would be on a salary and would not be on some form of penalty rates, hourly rates and penalty rates. Is that your evidence?‑‑‑Yes sir, that is correct.

PN2566

Thank you.

*** NEIL STEVEN MURRAY RXN MR GOTTING

PN2567

MR GOTTING: Finally, you were asked some questions about the views of the objectors and you said for those clubs that had no casual employees or a small number of casual employees, it would have less effect on them, but you took the view that it would lead - the application if granted would lead to further employment. Why do you say that?‑‑‑Well, across the board, a reduction of cost on weekends would - right now in many clubs there's a very strict approach, what you want to call running almost too lean in some respects, given the cost of operating on weekends. I believe that at the time, this will provide for more opportunities of employment because clubs will largely, they'll have more at their disposal. These are my opinions.

PN2568

MS BURKE: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt the witness, but I object to this evidence.

PN2569

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, Mr Murray, what's the objection?

PN2570

MS BURKE: I have to object to this evidence. Mr Murray is not a labourer of commerce, what he believes about the employment effect, is entirely irrelevant.

PN2571

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I'll allow his evidence. Go on Mr Murray.

PN2572

WITNESS: I think I had finished there, Vice President.

PN2573

MR GOTTING: That completes the re-examination.

PN2574

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, thank you for your evidence Mr Murray, you're excused and you're now free to enjoy London.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [6.01 PM]

PN2575

Can we get Mr Docker back in?

<ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER, RECALLED [6.02 PM]

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON [6.02 PM]

PN2576

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Docker, you remain on your former oath or affirmation. Do you still have your statement with you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2577

Right, Mr Dixon.

PN2578

MR DIXON: Mr Docker, I've been put under a time limitation.

PN2579

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: A generous one.

PN2580

MR DIXON: I will get on with it, and if I'm going too quickly, you can tell me. I was asking you some questions about the corporate structure that you operated in respect of Quality Hotel Team Fitness in the Garden Centre. Is it the case that the revenue generated from those three entities are included in the Canberra Tradies Club revenue statements?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2581

The employees who are employed by the Garden Centre, are they employed by that separate corporation or by Tradies?‑‑‑No, by a separate corporation is my understanding.

PN2582

What they do?‑‑‑Well, they provide a range of retail services in regard to all things which you would normally associate with a nursery, including a florist as well.

PN2583

Now I want to ask you some questions about staff in Tradies, and I'll go quickly, and tell me if I'm going too quickly. Do your Tradies Clubs employ bar workers?‑‑‑Correct.

PN2584

Kitchen attendants?‑‑‑Correct.

PN2585

Cooks?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2586

Front office workers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2587

Front office workers also provide their services to Quality Hotel?‑‑‑correct.

PN2588

Guest service workers in Tradies?‑‑‑Depends on the definition of guest service workers.

PN2589

Well, there's a classification. Well, do you provide staff employed by Tradies to go and do accommodation, hotel services in the Quality Hotel?‑‑‑Yes, we do.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2590

In what capacity? What do they do? Make beds, clean?‑‑‑All those things which you would typically associate with the operation of a hotel.

PN2591

They are, in this case, employees of that separate corporation or employees of - - -?‑‑‑No, they're employees of the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club.

PN2592

Of Tradies?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2593

What about child care workers? Does Tradies employ child care workers?‑‑‑No.

PN2594

Does it provide any child care worker facilities to Quality Hotels?‑‑‑No.

PN2595

Security staff? Tradies employ security staff?‑‑‑No, we have a subcontractor arrangement there.

PN2596

Right, and that subcontractor - all right. Leisure club attendants?‑‑‑No.

PN2597

Do you have bingo callers in Tradies?‑‑‑Not now. We did when Woden Tradesmen's Union Club was operating.

PN2598

Were they full time or part time?‑‑‑Part time.

PN2599

Tradies does not employ any golf professionals, because it has no facilities of that kind?‑‑‑No, we don't.

PN2600

No green keepers because it has no facilities of that kind?‑‑‑No we don't.

PN2601

Just coming back to - I asked you earlier about rostering of hours for Sundays as opposed to week days in the ACT and across the country. I want to be Tradies specific?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2602

You roster more staff hours on Saturdays than Monday to Fridays in Tradies?‑‑‑Typically.

PN2603

Also, to provide the services through Tradies employees to Quality Hotels?‑‑‑Correct.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2604

More staff hours are rostered on Sundays than Monday to Friday at Tradies?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2605

And also for the purposes of providing services to Quality Hotels?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2606

There's greater demand for services in Tradies on Saturdays than there is on Monday to Friday?‑‑‑The simple answer is yes, but Friday is a very big trading for us, given the nature of the way in which we work our business model with our membership base.

PN2607

Yes, but in addition to Friday, Saturdays are a high demand day for services?‑‑‑Correct.

PN2608

Sundays are a high demand day for services, more so than Monday to Friday?‑‑‑Well certainly Monday in our business model, certainly Monday and Wednesday, but in our business model we have a strong focus on what we do on a Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

PN2609

Training of staff at Canberra Tradies, they all have to have the responsible service of alcohol qualifications to work in Tradies?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2610

You're aware, are you not, through your general experience that the same qualification is required for staff in hospitality establishments serving alcohol other than clubs?‑‑‑Could you repeat that question please?

PN2611

You're aware through your general experience that employees employed in hospitality establishments serving alcohol in establishments other than clubs have to hold the same RSA qualification?‑‑‑I would imagine that's the case, yes.

PN2612

Tradies employs students?‑‑‑Yes, we do.

PN2613

They are typically students studying at the two universities in Canberra?‑‑‑Yes.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2614

In your experience, for many of them, if not most, there's no limited time during the week available and they therefore seek out weekend work from Tradies?‑‑‑No, not the case at all. Yes, most certainly, on a Saturday Sunday, we do employ students. But given the nature of their university studies and the time demanded of them, it's quite often that you would have university students who will work for you during the course of the week Monday to Friday as opposed to just Saturday and Sunday, that's correct.

PN2615

But large numbers of them would seek out weekend work because it might suit them better, in your experience?‑‑‑No, that's not my experience.

PN2616

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: In any event, do you employ any students as permanent full time or permanent part time employees as distinct from casual employees?‑‑‑Yes, in come cases we do, Deputy President.

PN2617

What's an example of a student in permanent employment?‑‑‑A student in permanent employment? It might be somebody in part time employment who are doing their three years of study at the ANU or the University of Canberra and if they're a good member of staff, obviously when you recruit them, they go through a probation process and an assessment is made. Then we try to do our very best to meet what their requirements are to get the work/life balance issue right. That's the way we basically approach it.

PN2618

Thank you.

PN2619

MR DIXON: Mr Docker, can I then ask you to turn to paragraph 14 of your statement?‑‑‑Excuse me.

PN2620

You'll see in the last sentence you refer to community demands?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2621

By that we take it you mean demands for providing sporting facilities?‑‑‑Yes, that may be.

PN2622

You mean by that, demand by work providing social activities such as bingo?‑‑‑Correct.

PN2623

Demanding entertaining facilities?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2624

Demands providing entertainment?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2625

There would be no different treatment in your experience of patrons that attended clubs for those services compared to other operators who are not clubs?‑‑‑Apologies, I'm unsure of the question.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2626

I will rephrase the question. In respect of those facilities that you've just identified, there would be no different treatment of patrons by clubs compared to other hospitality operators in respect of the provision of those services? They're going to get the same treatment as patrons in the provision of those services, whether they be clubs or elsewhere?‑‑‑I'm unsure of that.

PN2627

You've got no basis for suggesting that the treatment of the patrons would be any different in respect of those facilities you've just identified, if they were attending clubs, as opposed to other hospitality operators?‑‑‑No, I understand the question a little bit. No, there is a difference and I perhaps can qualify that. Is that the nature of the business model which clubs work by is you're providing services to your membership base through the normal government structures or asking your members to vote for directors. They are in actual fact providing, maybe no so much guidance, but they're providing input into the services which they'd like you to provide to their membership base. From that point of view, we have to listen carefully to what our members want, what they don't want and we have to design our services around those expectations.

PN2628

But in the actual service that's provided, the patrons are not going to get any different service?‑‑‑From?

PN2629

Whether they access bingo at a club, as opposed to bingo in a pub?‑‑‑Well in my jurisdiction, I understand that bingo is not provided in a pub. It is only provided in a club.

PN2630

I'll come back to that in a moment, if I may. Would you then turn to paragraph 23 of your statement please? In paragraph 23 you refer to large multi-sized groups. Clubs have developed into that?‑‑‑Hm-mm.

PN2631

Do we take that you mean large groups with multiple sites?‑‑‑Yes, correct.

PN2632

The benefits of multiple sites, what are they for, operators' lower cost base?‑‑‑Yes, lower cost, economies of scale, distribution of beds, let's say a human resource management component, a payroll component, accounts component. Well, typically they would be providing those services to the whole group as opposed to just being a single club.

PN2633

Are there other examples of large club groups in the ACT that you can identify with multiple sites?‑‑‑Yes, I can. The Canberra Raiders being one. The Southern Cross Club being another. The Vikings Group being another. The Eastlake Group being another. The Ainslie Football Club being another.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2634

In relation to club managers at Tradies, you're the Chief Executive, but you have a deputy?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN2635

Your deputy is a permanent employee and not casual?‑‑‑A permanent employee, yes.

PN2636

Your deputy is paid a salary?‑‑‑Yes, correct.

PN2637

You're familiar with the Club's Award, I take it, Mr Docker?‑‑‑Look, in general terms I am. If you were to ask me specifics about it, I don't think I would be able to answer.

PN2638

Sure, but you're aware are you, and I can show you the award if need be, that the annual salary for level 13 which is the top salary for club managers, it goes to $58,056?‑‑‑I couldn't have given you that specific answer.

PN2639

I may have to show you that, but I might be able to do it more quickly. Your deputy earns a great deal more than $58,056?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2640

You have a number of direct reports?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN2641

How many direct reports do you have?‑‑‑Just let me add them up. I have my secretary, group gaming manager, the chief operating officer who is the 2IC of the club group. I have a senior project manager. I have a group account. That's six if I'm doing my maths correctly.

PN2642

Each of your direct reports is paid a salary?‑‑‑Yes, they are.

PN2643

Each of the direct reports are permanent employees and no casuals?‑‑‑They're permanent employees.

PN2644

The salaries paid to your direct reports exceed the figures of $58,056?‑‑‑Correct.

PN2645

Each of them is significantly higher than the $58,000?‑‑‑Several of them are significantly higher than $58,000.

PN2646

Of the six, five?‑‑‑Five would be correct, yes.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2647

And are you able to give me a percentage, or the Commission a percentage? 40, 50 per cent above the $58,000?‑‑‑Look, in some cases it would be 100 per cent above.

PN2648

We're not asking you to identify the amounts?‑‑‑No, no, but perhaps in answering that I would like for the Commission's benefit if I'm able, Commissioner, to give a clarification to that.

PN2649

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes?‑‑‑The nature of our business is significantly large. A component of our business is certainly club business. But also, in the case of some of our senior management, their work is beyond just club and hotel business. Their salaries and remuneration based upon the work value assessment that I might make with regard to what levels of pay they should be afforded. But it's not always directed to the club and hotel activities.

PN2650

MR DIXON: But it is in their capacity as an employee of Tradies?‑‑‑Correct, yes.

PN2651

I'm not being critical about you paying a lot of money?‑‑‑No, no, I understand, but I just wanted to give that clarification, forgive me.

PN2652

Are you paid a negotiated salary and a performance incentive? Again, I don't want details?‑‑‑No. In the past yes, but more so these days, for a variety of advanced human resource management reasons, we don't choose to pay an incentive.

PN2653

Right, and does that apply to your direct reports, no incentive?‑‑‑Correct.

PN2654

What about your other managers? Do they get a bonus or incentive?‑‑‑No, they don't.

PN2655

Do you have duty managers?‑‑‑Yes, we do. We have duty managers, yes we do.

PN2656

How many?‑‑‑We have three permanent duty managers and then we operate with what we might call higher duties or a casual duty manager, even though typically they're a permanent employee, just with regards to the rotational duty managers and how rosters and so forth work.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2657

Each of them earns significantly more than $58,000?‑‑‑Not significantly more, but it would certainly in the realms of about $14,000 more a year. Look, forgive me, just again for clarification Commissioner, so we're comparing apples with apples, is the salary packages which we have our duty managers on, take into account a range of things which a person on $58,000 a year who might get a range of penalty rates and all sorts of things which go with that which would life their salary naturally. So, we incorporate and take that into account. But if the question, if I may be bold, is do we pay more than $58,000 for our duty managers, the answer is yes.

PN2658

You pay well above the award for duty managers?‑‑‑We pay above the award, but I wouldn't say well above the award.

PN2659

But also above the threshold that entitles them to separate penalty payments and the like?‑‑‑Yes, we certainly do.

PN2660

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Are the salary levels for your club managers set out in the enterprise agreement, or are they sort of private arrangements?‑‑‑The conditions Commissioner, are set out in our EBA arrangements, but the actual remuneration, from memory, is something which we strike separately and that's not reflected in the EBA, but the conditions certainly are.

PN2661

Thank you.

PN2662

MR DIXON: Mr Docker, would you turn to the last page of your statement if you have it, it's attachment G?‑‑‑Attachment G, yes.

PN2663

I take it you didn't prepare this document; it was prepared for you was it?‑‑‑Yes, it was prepared for me.

PN2664

You don't know what the underlying assumptions are, do you?‑‑‑Look, the underlying assumptions we've got at the bottom of that page which I quote are on salary calculation is based on the roster of two day shifts, two night shifts and a Sunday shift. This is the most beneficial for an employee.

PN2665

It assumes an hour shift per Sunday does it, for every Sunday?‑‑‑Just let me check that. Yes, certainly a Sunday shift, but look, I'd have to just look into it more closely whether it was an eight hour shift or not. My apologies that that's not defined about the length of the shift on a Sunday.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2666

When you took it - where the assumption is in the left hand bottom corner, two night shifts. It depends on, you've assumed have you, endorsing this, that you're looking at the most favourable position because the two night shifts, it will depend on when people start, would it not?‑‑‑Correct.

PN2667

It is assumed that all employees work eight hour shifts on Sundays?‑‑‑No, it's not assumed that all employees work an eight hour shift on Sundays.

PN2668

Well, it is assumed that the employee would work every Sunday an eight hour shift?‑‑‑No, not necessarily.

PN2669

Every Sunday, I beg your pardon, that every Sunday that the employee works, that that employee will work an eight hour shift?‑‑‑Not necessarily so.

PN2670

Well, where do you see the qualification?‑‑‑I don't.

PN2671

You see, it says this is the most beneficial roster for an employee?‑‑‑Correct.

PN2672

Yes, so it also assumes, does it not, a 25 per cent reduction immediately?‑‑‑I need to understand the 25 per cent reduction, what do you mean?

PN2673

Well, what is the reduction in penalty rates that have been built into this document?‑‑‑Sure. Yes, okay, yes.

PN2674

You don't know?‑‑‑Well, I'm just looking at the document now and going back to (indistinct) and I'm just looking at the branch. Could you ask me the question again?

PN2675

You don't know what percentage reduction has been incorporated into this document for penalty rates?‑‑‑No, my understanding is the document has shown what was reflected in the Club's Licensing Award and then the reduction is what would be reflected in the Hospitality Award. That was my understanding.

PN2676

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: It's comparison of the identified roster between what the Clubs Award currently provides, is that right?‑‑‑Correct, Deputy President.

PN2677

The Hospitality Award is in the process of transitioning some penalty rate cuts?‑‑‑Yes.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2678

Is it done as at no, as at when those penalty rate cuts have been fully transitioned?‑‑‑My understanding is when they were being fully transitioned, Deputy President.

PN2679

Thank you.

PN2680

MR DIXON: Did you say before the transition?‑‑‑Fully transitioned.

PN2681

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you. Thank you. May I ask you, do you still have the folder that I provided you with?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN2682

Could I ask you to turn to tab one?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2683

If you go to page - are you familiar with the Gungahlin Lakes Club?‑‑‑Yes I'm very familiar.

PN2684

It has function facilities?‑‑‑I understand as such.

PN2685

Yes, it has catering facilities?‑‑‑I understand as such.

PN2686

Is it one of the larger golf clubs in the ACT?‑‑‑Yes, it is. I'm a member of the club as a golfer.

PN2687

Without my intruding in your personal life, Mr Docker, you utilise the facilities of that club?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN2688

Restaurant facilities?‑‑‑No.

PN2689

Bar facilities?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2690

When I say restaurant, any meal facilities, dining?‑‑‑If you want to define dining as having a hamburger after a round of golf, yes.

PN2691

Can you turn then to the - it has a function facility to your knowledge?‑‑‑To my knowledge, it does.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2692

Look at the page numbered one. That would be a reflection of the function facility that you've seen at that club?‑‑‑I am not familiar and I have not ventured into that part of the club. I have not seen their function area.

PN2693

Page 3, bottom right hand page. There's this - again the Ainslie Group, is that the operator of that club?‑‑‑Yes, it is. FIFA World Cup ads trying to promote it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2694

To your knowledge, this is the same sort of ad that is being run by pubs in the ACT at the moment to attract custom during the world cup, is it not?‑‑‑As pubs.

PN2695

Pubs?‑‑‑Unaware, don't know the answer.

PN2696

All right. Can I then ask you to turn to page 8? Again, it's the Ainslie Group promotion. Happy hour, does Tradies operate happy hour?‑‑‑From time to time we do.

PN2697

You would know that pubs in the ACT also have happy hour to promote their services, do you not?‑‑‑I think that's the case.

PN2698

Raffles, do you run raffles at your club?‑‑‑We did until very recently. We've extinguished that.

PN2699

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We'll have to wrap up very soon Mr Dixon to allow some opportunity for re-examination.

PN2700

MR DIXON: Your Honour, I'm working very hard at that. I just need a couple of minutes.

PN2701

29, is that an extract of the Louise Café at the Dixon Tradies?‑‑‑That page?

PN2702

29?‑‑‑Yes, I would think so.

PN2703

With its facilities referred to in the next couple of pages?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2704

The events one is also from your website, page 32 and following?‑‑‑Yes.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2705

On the sports bar, 38, they're all from your Tradies?‑‑‑Yes, correct.

PN2706

41 is the lounge?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN2707

Then I just want to ask you, 54, is 54 the new Canberra Wine House that your club is operating?‑‑‑54, yes.

PN2708

That is a separate - this is really to put you into the space of wine bars and compete with wine bars in the ACT Dixon area, does it not?‑‑‑No.

PN2709

You seek to attract custom on the basis of this is not necessarily the club, but it is a wine bar or a wine house serving specialist wine?‑‑‑The latter part of that statement is correct, serving specialist wine.

PN2710

Our business model is very Canberra-region centric. I have a strong alignment with the Canberra wine industry, regional industry and we choose to bring about a competitive edge by giving our members the opportunity to access fine wines from the Canberra wine region.

PN2711

Thank you. I just need another two minutes if the Commission would grant me.

PN2712

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Well, we'll have to wrap up Mr Dixon.

PN2713

MR DIXON: Mr Docker, would you go to page 133 which is behind tab nine?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2714

Young & Frisky is a pub around the corner from Tradies, is it?‑‑‑I'm not familiar with it, to be honest with you. No, I'm not familiar with it.

PN2715

Hopscotch?‑‑‑Hopscotch I'm familiar with. It's in the Braddon area, correct.

PN2716

How far is that from your operations?‑‑‑Probably about 4.5 kilometres.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER XXN MR DIXON

PN2717

Right. Then lastly, in your experience, the out-sourcing of catering services by clubs is a more recent development?‑‑‑It's not. It's something which has been problematic for the last 20 years in the club industry and depending on what school of thought you're from and depending on the overall relationship of your food offering to other services in the club, there might be reasons to go down an out-sourced route. There might be reasons to have it in-house. From my perspective at the Tradies, we've had both models operate during my tenure as the CEO. Proudly, five, six, seven years ago, after refurbishment I chose to move to an in-house food model and we continue to operate that food model as such today.

PN2718

Outside of Tradies, you've seen an increase in that out-sourcing model for catering in clubs in the ACT, have you not?‑‑‑Look, yes.

PN2719

That's been an increasing trend in the last eight to 10 years?‑‑‑Just as it's been an equal trend for people to return to in-house catering and that seems to be the case.

PN2720

Just stick with my question. For catering, it's been an increase in that trend in the last eight to 10 years?‑‑‑I couldn't - - -

PN2721

I thought you said you?‑‑‑You said an increase in the trend. The trend was always there, but there hasn't been any difference to six or seven years ago.

PN2722

There's no difference in trend?‑‑‑No difference in trend.

PN2723

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, re-examination Mr Dowling. Five minutes.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DOWLING [6.30 PM]

PN2724

MR DOWLING: That will do me, your Honour. I just want to clarify the last question. There seems to be a bit of confusion as the result of Mr Dixon's question, in terms of the propensity for people to out-source and the propensity for people to in-source if there's such an expression, but you know what I mean?‑‑‑Yes.

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER RXN MR DOWLING

PN2725

Are you able to give any indication as to which is more prevalent, or the trends in respect of either?‑‑‑Look, I could get into quite a technical answer about that and I don't wish to surprise anybody here, but we're very conscious that in an outsourced arrangement that by definition, you're diluting control over your food operations. That also means that staff who might come in, in an outsourced model might not always correlate with the core values of the organisation more broadly and that is a very big challenge. Having said that, I am aware of some outsourced food solutions which have typically been focused at the lower socio-economic demographic of some clubs. That's been a model which some clubs have chosen. In our case at the Tradies, I've always seen the virtue of understanding our cost centre correlations and we measure those carefully. We measure spend of our members and guests and we look carefully at how all that comes together. From our data analytics we took a decision many years ago to go back in-house and we continue to operate successfully with an in-house food model today.

PN2726

You're not able to give any evidence about why other clubs might choose to go in our out?‑‑‑

PN2727

MR DIXON: No, no, no. You can't suggest that the witness can't give that evidence.

PN2728

MR DOWLING: I need to rephrase it. What evidence are you able to give about what the choice that other clubs make?‑‑‑Look, there's many elements to the club industry where clubs are quite similar. Of course, we know that. But what is perhaps a large issue is understanding the socio-economic demographic issue which many clubs are faced with and they're quite different. Look, smaller clubs are probably more inclined towards an outsourced model than an in-house because of scale. What they're doing, they're basically mitigating the risk with regard to the commercial return which comes out of food. Now, I say good luck to those clubs if they choose to do that. But of course with that, comes a range of other issues which are not necessarily for me to comment on. But such issues about people who work in those areas and there's outsourced models about whether they're being paid correctly, whether the conditions are as per the award are in place. There's a wide range of things. The smaller clubs might typically move to family outsourced food model because of the smaller scale. In my consulting days for seven, eight years in the club industry more broadly, I was careful about making any recommendations either way until such time that I was convinced that I had a full understanding which each of those clubs, wherever it might be, what they were faced with. Sometimes, I would recommend an outsourced food model. It would depend on what arrangements you came to with an outsourced provider. But for larger clubs, I think there's arguments from where we sit obviously that I think it can work in ours.

PN2729

Thank you Mr Docker. There's nothing further, your Honour.

PN2730

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Right, thank you very much Mr Docker, you're excused and you're free to go.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [6.34 PM]

PN2731

MR DIXON: Your Honour, while that is raised, may we have leave to identify which passages of the cross-examination bundle we tender tomorrow?

*** ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER RXN MR DOWLING

PN2732

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes. Is there any reason why we should not start at 9.30 in the morning? Silence is assent, so we'll now adjourn and start at 9.30 am in the morning.

ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 04 JULY 2018 [6.34 PM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

GWYN REES, AFFIRMED................................................................................ PN969

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DIXON.................................................. PN969

EXHIBIT #9 WITNESS STATEMENT OF GWYN REES DATED 21/10/2017 PN1105

EXHIBIT #10 SUPPLEMENTARY WITNESS STATEMENT TO GWYN REES DATED 07/06/2018............................................................................................................. PN1109

EXHIBIT #11 AINSLIE OVAL WATER RATES......................................... PN1125

EXHIBIT #12 E-NEWS APRIL 2017 - CLUBSACT MODERN AWARD REVIEW CLUBS AUSTRALIA (INDUSTRIAL).......................................................................... PN1164

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BURKE..................................................... PN1171

EXHIBIT #13 AINSLIE GROUP 2016 ANNUAL REPORT........................ PN1401

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON............................................................. PN1562

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN1581

GEORGE BRUCE ADDISON, AFFIRMED.................................................. PN1593

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DIXON................................................ PN1593

EXHIBIT #14 STATEMENT OF GEORGE ADDISON............................... PN1685

EXHIBIT #15 SUPPLEMENTARY STATEMENT OF GEORGE ADDISON DATED 08/06/2018............................................................................................................. PN1685

EXHIBIT #16 DOCUMENT ENTITLED CLUBSNSW BRIEFING PAPER ON THE IMPACT OF THE OPENING OF STAR CASINO DATED 16/09/2015....................... PN1713

EXHIBIT #17 THE DOCUMENT HEADED "ABOUT TREASURY BRISBANE" PN1748

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DOWLING.............................................. PN1790

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON............................................................. PN2023

EXHIBIT #18 DOCUMENT ENTITLED GAMING LICENCE FEES AND CHARGES 2018/2019.............................................................................................................. PN2045

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN2049

ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER, AFFIRMED................................................... PN2118

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DOWLING......................................... PN2118

EXHIBIT #19 WITNESS STATEMENT OF ROBERT DOCKER DATED 10/05/2018 PLUS ANNEXURES...................................................................................................... PN2136

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON..................................................... PN2136

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN2337

NEIL STEVEN MURRAY, AFFIRMED........................................................ PN2339

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR GOTTING.......................................... PN2339

EXHIBIT #20 WITNESS STATEMENT OF NEIL STEVEN MURRAY DATED 23/10/2017............................................................................................................................... PN2362

EXHIBIT #21 SUPPLEMENTARY WITNESS STATEMENT OF NEIL STEVEN MURRAY DATED 07/06/2018.............................................................................................. PN2412

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BYRNE..................................................... PN2426

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR GOTTING....................................................... PN2557

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN2574

ROBERT GRIMM DOCKER, RECALLED.................................................. PN2575

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON..................................................... PN2575

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DOWLING...................................................... PN2723

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN2730