PN4204

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, Mr Dixon?

PN4205

MR DIXON: May I raise a matter? If the Commission pleases, I produce in response to the call the minutes of the council meeting of Clubs Australia Industrial held via telephone conference on 26 April 2017 at 11 am.

PN4206

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, well can you - - -

PN4207

MR DIXON: And I have copies for the Tribunal.

PN4208

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Do you want to show those to Mr Dowling first and we'll see what he wants to do with them?

PN4209

Mr Dowling?

PN4210

MR DOWLING: We just might take some instructions in respect of the issues arising from that and deal with it at an appropriate time.

PN4211

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN4212

MR DOWLING: If you don't mind your Honour?

PN4213

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN4214

MR DOWLING: We call Daniel James Constable.

PN4215

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN4216

THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name and address?

PN4217

MR D CONSTABLE: Yes, Daniel James Constable. I work at 700 Ocean Drive, Port Macquarie or (address supplied).

<DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE, SWORN [9.34 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DOWLING [9.34 AM]

PN4218

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Can you just hold on one second, Mr Dowling? We're just trying to work out whether Mr Arnold is attending today by video link.

PN4219

MR DOWLING: My understanding, if it assists your Honour, is that he was not.

PN4220

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Yes, we'll just check that. All right, go ahead Mr Dowling.

PN4221

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour.

PN4222

Mr Constable, could you please repeat your full name?‑‑‑Yes, Daniel James Constable.

PN4223

Your occupation?‑‑‑Chief executive officer, Port Macquarie Golf Club.

PN4224

And your address?‑‑‑(Address supplied)

PN4225

Thank you very much. Can you tell the Commission please whether you've prepared a statement for the purposes of this proceeding?‑‑‑Yes, I have. Yes.

PN4226

A folder is being handed to. Do you have there on the first page a document headed "Statement of Daniel James Constable"?‑‑‑Yes, I do. Yes.

PN4227

Thank you. Does that statement extend to five pages, 32 paragraphs?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN4228

Signed by you on 10 May of this year?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN4229

And do you have with it a document marked as attachment A referred to by you at paragraph 28 of the statement?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN4230

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dowling, we don't have the attachment.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XN MR DOWLING

PN4231

MR DOWLING: I'm sorry about that, your Honour. We have - now Mr Constable refers to a particular table from the Australian Gambling statistics. The entire document is many hundreds of pages and so I think Mr Constable had intended to refer to a particular table. So what we might do - and I'm in your Honour's hands whether you would like us to do it before we continue - I'll identify the particular table that it is Mr Constable intends to refer to and have copies of that table made.

PN4232

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, well paragraph 28 simply refers to page 24.

PN4233

MR DOWLING: Yes.

PN4234

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So if we can just get page 24 out, we'll get it copied and get on with it.

PN4235

MR DOWLING: Yes. I should say for the benefit of everybody that I know from the publication there is more than one page 24 in it. Perhaps I'll ask Mr Constable to clarify.

PN4236

Each of the tables has a description and a number peculiar to each state. Can you identify, Mr Constable, which table you were referring to in your paragraph 28?‑‑‑Just - could you just give me a moment just to locate that?

PN4237

Certainly?‑‑‑The reason it's taking a little while is the page numbers on this document are different to the online version.

PN4238

Yes?‑‑‑So the reference is not exactly correct there.

PN4239

That has been my experience. Can I show you a table please, to assist you?‑‑‑I have located it. Table number 46 in this document, page 54.

PN4240

Yes, and so everyone is clear, the table is headed "Table NSW" for New South Wales "46"? Mr Constable, sorry, I was just asking you to confirm what - - -?‑‑‑Sorry, yes it is.

PN4241

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4242

And then it says "New South Wales total gambling turnover"?‑‑‑Yes, that's the correct table.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XN MR DOWLING

PN4243

And then it lists years from 1990 to 1991 through to 2015 to 2016. That's the table to which you're referring to in paragraph 28?‑‑‑Yes, it is. Yes.

PN4244

All right. We'll have copies of that - sorry.

PN4245

MR DIXON: I would be very happy to provide it to the Full Bench for the moment, my copy, if that's of any assistance?

PN4246

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We'll get it copied right away, Mr Dixon.

PN4247

MR DIXON: I had not intended to refer to it in cross‑examination, if that assists.

PN4248

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, thank you, Mr Dowling.

PN4249

MR DOWLING: Now I'm sorry about that, Mr Constable. Are there any clarifications or corrections you wish to make to your statement?‑‑‑Probably just one that - or just wish to clarify that I believe paragraph 11 and 12, they can't be read in isolation, they obviously need to be read together just to I guess get the point across that there are ancillary services we offer at the club in addition to the golf, and there are competition within our region for those ancillary services but the core stuff is our golf and our sporting functions, and if 11 is read in isolation to 12 it sort of might paint a different picture to that. So I just wanted to clarify that maybe in the writing I should have had that as one paragraph so it comes across as one point really.

PN4250

I understand, and with that clarification can you tell the Commission whether the contents of your statement are true and correct?‑‑‑Yes, they are.

PN4251

And, your Honour, there are some objections to that statement.

PN4252

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes Mr Dixon?

PN4253

MR DIXON: The first one is the last sentence of paragraph 16 and, your Honour, it really is opinion, submission or conclusion.

PN4254

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That sentence will be admitted.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XN MR DOWLING

PN4255

MR DIXON: And the next one is paragraph 18 - sorry, paragraph 17, the last sentence. That's a submission. It can't have any probative value.

PN4256

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes Mr Dowling?

PN4257

MR DOWLING: I think this falls into the category of the type of evidence that Mr Murray gave, to which reference was made yesterday about the economic consequences of the application. In our submission if that is permissible this is equally permissible.

PN4258

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, I'll allow it. Only just.

PN4259

MR DIXON: Paragraph 18 the second sentence, your Honour. That is so speculative. There's no foundation for that at all. It is simply guesswork.

PN4260

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No foundation for what?

PN4261

MR DIXON: For the suggestion that if clubs and for profit hospitality venues are covered by the same award there should be some change to the tax regime.

PN4262

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Did you say paragraph 22?

PN4263

MR DIXON: I beg your pardon, your Honour, I thought I said 18 but if I made a mistake I apologise.

PN4264

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, sorry, I skipped the objections.

PN4265

Mr Dowling?

PN4266

MR DOWLING: Mr Constable is really expressing his concern from his experience in his role and that's consistent with evidence that has been admitted and in our view admissible.

PN4267

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, I won't allow that sentence.

PN4268

MR DOWLING: If the court pleases.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XN MR DOWLING

PN4269

MR DIXON: Paragraph 22 is the next one and that's the one your Honour was looking at earlier. It's in the same category, in my respectful submission.

PN4270

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, I'll allow that.

PN4271

MR DIXON: And lastly paragraph 30.

PN4272

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What is wrong with that?

PN4273

MR DIXON: Thank you.

PN4274

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, I'll allow paragraph 30. The statement of Daniel James Constable dated 10 May 2018 will be marked exhibit 35.

EXHIBIT #35 WITNESS STATEMENT OF DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE DATED 10/05/2018, WITH DELETION

PN4275

MR DIXON: Thank you, your Honour.

PN4276

MR DOWLING: Does the Bench now have copies of the table?

PN4277

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, we're arranging that.

PN4278

MR DOWLING: Sorry.

PN4279

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon said he's not cross‑examining on that so it's not so urgent.

PN4280

MR DOWLING: Thank you.

PN4281

If you wait there, Mr Constable.

PN4282

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes Mr Dixon?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON [9.44 AM]

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4283

MR DIXON: Mr Constable, how long have you been the chief executive officer of the Port Macquarie Golf Club?‑‑‑Just on four years.

PN4284

Just on four years. Now I want to show you some material if I may, and we have copies to hand up to the Full Bench. The Port Macquarie Golf Club has a web page?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN4285

And it promotes its services to guests and members on that web page?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN4286

And would you go to the documents behind tab 1 of the bundle I have handed you and just have a look and confirm if you will whether that is - if you are able to identify the current web page for the Port Macquarie Golf Club?‑‑‑Well, we changed our menu last week so it's a little bit out of date.

PN4287

Right?‑‑‑But generally yes.

PN4288

Apart from the menu?‑‑‑Yes. So, yes.

PN4289

Yes, and so by reference to that tab, for example, the Port Macquarie Golf Club has a dining option being the Aspire Restaurant?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4290

Does it have other dining options?‑‑‑No.

PN4291

It has a bar and a lounge area?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4292

It has a function area?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4293

The function area from time to time hosts wedding receptions?‑‑‑Occasionally, yes.

PN4294

Yes, engagement parties?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4295

It hosts other parties in the function facility?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

PN4296

And social functions?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4297

In the function area. Business functions in the function area?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4298

In the restaurant, the Aspire Restaurant, does it have lunch and dinner facilities?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4299

And does it have an á la carte menu or does that change?‑‑‑No, á la carte menu.

PN4300

la carte menu. Now you mentioned something in answer to a question from Mr Dowling about some ancillary services. What are the ancillary services that you referred to?‑‑‑Well, the ones you've just mentioned there. I mean when the golf club started and over time - it was originally a golf course and then in time you realise that golfers need to eat, they need to drink and they need to have a space to meet and hold their meetings. So in time from being a golf course it grew to have these ancillary services that go on top of that. Yes.

PN4301

Okay, and those services have increased in the last four to five years?‑‑‑In the last four to five years they've probably been a little bit flatlined but, yes.

PN4302

I mean when did the restaurant come on board, do you know?‑‑‑In the 50s.

PN4303

Right, okay. Now in relation to the staff employed by the Port Macquarie Golf Club you employ bar workers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4304

Kitchen attendants?‑‑‑Yes, we're under contract, our kitchen arrangements. So they're not employed directly by the club.

PN4305

So there's a contractor that provides kitchen - sorry, you employ bar workers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4306

But kitchen attendants you don't employ directly, they're employed by a contractor. Is that your evidence?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4307

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So does that extend to the operation of the whole of the restaurant, like the waiting staff as well?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN4308

MR DOWLING: And do you engage cooks?‑‑‑No.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4309

Front office workers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4310

Gaming attendants?‑‑‑Well, we cross - we don't have specified gaming attendants. We have clubhouse attendants who attend the bar, café and gaming services.

PN4311

Right, but you have gaming facilities?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4312

Yes, and do you employ any childcare workers?‑‑‑No.

PN4313

Or fitness instructors?‑‑‑No, we employ a golf instructor.

PN4314

A golfing instructor, and bingo callers?‑‑‑Again the clubhouse - not in a individual role but, yes, the clubhouse service attendants fulfil the bingo calling role.

PN4315

Yes, so it's just an ancillary or it's just a function they perform?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4316

If and when you're putting on a bingo event?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4317

You don't have someone specifically employed for that purpose?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4318

And the rostering of staff at your golf club, more staff hours are rostered on a Saturday than Monday to Friday?‑‑‑No. You mean cumulative? The total of Monday to Friday hours to Saturday to Sunday?

PN4319

I beg your pardon, I'll withdraw the question. I'll ask you the question again. You roster more hours on a Saturday than you do on any other day of the week?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4320

And you roster more hours on a Sunday than any other day of the week?‑‑‑Well, no Saturday - - -

PN4321

Sorry, than any other week day?‑‑‑Sunday is probably on par with a Thursday for us. We have a busy golf day on a Thursday so it's a busy day, but the Saturday, Sunday are our busiest days.

PN4322

Saturday and Sunday are your busiest days?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4323

Yes, and therefore there are greater demand for your club services on a Saturday than on any weekday?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4324

And there are greater demands for your services on a Sunday than on a weekday?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4325

And the training, do you do training of staff at the golf club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4326

And you train staff in the service of alcohol and the holding of the Responsible Service of Alcohol qualifications?‑‑‑Well, we train them in the service of alcohol. They go external for the RSA training.

PN4327

Right, and that external training to your knowledge is applicable not only to clubs but more generally in the industry?‑‑‑Well, anybody serving alcohol is required to hold the Responsible Service of Alcohol training.

PN4328

Whether they're in a pub or in your club or elsewhere?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4329

That's your understanding. Are there other golf clubs in your area?‑‑‑What sort of - - -

PN4330

Port Macquarie?‑‑‑In Port Macquarie there's a golf course but it's not a registered Club.

PN4331

I see. Is it a public course?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4332

Now you previously worked at the Ryde Parramatta Golf Club for a period of time?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4333

How long was that?‑‑‑Four years.

PN4334

And would you look at tab 4 in the bundle that I've handed you please, Mr Constable? When you were at the Parramatta Golf Club it had a website?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4335

And perhaps you can confirm that - have a look at the document and indicate whether you recognise it?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4336

And in relation to that golf club, when you were employed it had dining options?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4337

And what were they?‑‑‑It had a Friday evening bistro and then a place that served functions and a halfway house for snacks and things.

PN4338

Yes, and if you look at page 123 on the bottom left‑hand corner, the functions that were held when you were there are of a type that are set out in the left‑hand column of that page?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4339

And the types of conferences that were conducted are set out on page 124, if you'd have a look at that?‑‑‑Is that a question?

PN4340

Yes, do you see the description under "Meetings and conferences"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4341

Those were the types of events, seminars, meeting, conference or corporate events that were staged in the function section when you were there?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4342

And if you look at page 125 you'll see the clubhouse and bistro. Is that the bistro? Does that depict the clubhouse and bistro as it was when you worked there?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4343

And you have no reason to believe that that's any different now, do you?‑‑‑No, it's not. Well, this is actually the current year brochure so it's - that's as it was four years ago.

PN4344

Right, and then can I ask you to turn to tab 5. I'm sorry, I apologise for this. In relation to the Ryde Parramatta Golf Club did it have bar options?‑‑‑Yes, it had a bar.

PN4345

What were they?‑‑‑Beer, wine and spirits, soft drinks, coffee.

PN4346

One bar or more than one bar?‑‑‑One bar.

PN4347

One bar?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4348

And was food served from that bar?‑‑‑Packets of chips and snack food but not food, not prepared meals.

PN4349

You've previously worked at the Avondale Golf Club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4350

How long did you work at that golf club?‑‑‑Just over two years.

PN4351

It had a web site when you worked there?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4352

Would you have a look at tab 5 and see if you identify whether those documents depict, as you understand it, the web site of the Avondale Golf Club?‑‑‑I would say yes, except for page 142.

PN4353

Yes, all right. I'm happy to strike that. Thank you. Apart from 142, the others you recognise as its Avondale Golf Club web site?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4354

It had dining options, the club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4355

What were the dining options? Refer to the document if you need to?‑‑‑It had a full kitchen. It was available for members' meals during golf rounds and a Sunday lunch service, and functions, but it didn't operate as a restaurant so to speak.

PN4356

But there were weddings held from time to time?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4357

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, that page 142, I don't think we should have that, should we?

PN4358

MR DIXON: No.

PN4359

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We might return that. I don't know what it is, but we might return that to you.

PN4360

MR DIXON: I was going to ask for it to be struck out. I don't know where it came from, I'm afraid.

PN4361

At the Avondale Golf Club, the functions were of the kind that are described on page 132 whilst you were there, Mr Constable:

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4362

Weddings, conferences, cocktail parties, social events, christenings, wakes, special birthday celebrations.

PN4363

?‑‑‑Yes. Avondale - there's no gaming, so Avondale relied on their golf and reasonable wedding and function trade.

PN4364

It had bar operations?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4365

What were the nature of its dining options? A bistro or - - -?‑‑‑It was available for a la carte lunch, but not evening dinner options.

PN4366

In Port Macquarie - you are familiar, are you, with the Port Macquarie Hotel?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4367

That hotel has to your knowledge food options; dining options?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4368

Can you describe them?‑‑‑I haven't actually - I have eaten once there. It's a bistro‑type setup.

PN4369

There is a bar or a pub?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4370

Or more than one? Do you know?‑‑‑There is two bars at the Port Macquarie Hotel.

PN4371

Does it have any function facilities to your knowledge?‑‑‑Yes, it has a small function room.

PN4372

If you would please turn to page 36, you will see that there are promotions for events at the Port Macquarie Hotel. You're aware of the type of event that is put on at that hotel, like State of Origin - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4373

Does your golf club also have events such as the State of Origin games and provide facilities to members?‑‑‑Well, yes, we provide them to the members, whereas the Port Macquarie Hotel does not provide them to members.

PN4374

I stand corrected. Thank you. Do you put on a State of Origin function for your members or guests when those events occur?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4375

Do you promote the function event by sending out emails or putting up posters or circulars to tell your members and any invited guests that such functions would be held at your club?‑‑‑Yes, we do.

PN4376

What form does your advertising or promotions take?‑‑‑For which one?

PN4377

For an event like the State of Origin event?‑‑‑So typically there would be a Facebook post or a poster or an e‑circular.

PN4378

During the soccer World Cup, do you have functions to attract members and guests to the club on any special World Cup games?‑‑‑No.

PN4379

You stick to golf?‑‑‑Well, we're under renovation, so we try to keep people away.

PN4380

Apart from the renovation - if you were not under renovation that would be part of your normal business?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4381

At such events?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4382

Thank you?‑‑‑The reason for that is we try and minimise our reliance on gaming.

PN4383

And rely more on your bar and dining facilities, and the club facilities - the golf club?‑‑‑Well, our golf side is our main earner and we try and offset our reliance on other areas by providing food and beverage at events.

PN4384

Are you familiar with the Kew Country Club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4385

Where is that situated?‑‑‑Kew.

PN4386

Well, is it in - all right. Thank you. Are you familiar with the facilities of that club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4387

Can you describe to the Commission has it got dining facilities?‑‑‑Yes, it does have a bistro menu there.

PN4388

It has bar options?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4389

More than one or - can you recall?‑‑‑It has got one bar.

PN4390

A function centre?‑‑‑It has got a function room, yes.

PN4391

How close is that golf club to Port Macquarie Golf Club?‑‑‑It's about a 25‑minute drive.

PN4392

Thank you. Are you familiar with the Port Macquarie Panthers Club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4393

You visit that club from time to time?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4394

You can tell the Commission about its dining - it has dining options?‑‑‑You could call them that, yes.

PN4395

A bistro?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4396

A cafe?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4397

Other food outlets or services?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4398

In the form of?‑‑‑There is like a tapas bar - there are two. There is a bistro and another bar that serves some share plates.

PN4399

It has bar facilities obviously, from your previous answer?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4400

How many bar facilities?‑‑‑Two.

PN4401

Two?‑‑‑Three, sorry.

PN4402

Sorry, three?‑‑‑Three.

PN4403

It has a facility for functions, as well?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4404

Have you ever attended a function there?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4405

Is it a large function facility?‑‑‑As in?

PN4406

Numbers that you think it would seat?‑‑‑Probably 300 seats.

PN4407

Are you familiar with the Westport Club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4408

In relation to where your club is, where is that?‑‑‑It's probably about 10 kilometres away. Eight to 10 K's.

PN4409

You have visited that club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4410

You're familiar with the fact that it has dining functions; a restaurant Aqua?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4411

It has a bar; Jimmy's Bar and Lounge?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4412

It has a Hastings Coffee outlet?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4413

It has got function facilities to your knowledge?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4414

Do you know what types of functions are held in those facilities?‑‑‑I imagine they would hold weddings and meetings and conferences, birthday parties.

PN4415

In your capacity as the CEO, do you consult the Clubs Award on a fairly regular basis?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4416

Are you familiar with the Clubs Award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4417

You are familiar with the structure of that award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4418

Can I ask you to look if you will, please, Mr Constable, at the award. You know that that award has a table of contents?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4419

Would you go to the table of contents?‑‑‑I'm on that page.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4420

You are. You will see, for example, that if you are interested in allowances, I take it you would go down to read "Allowances" at the bottom of that page?‑‑‑(No audible reply)

PN4421

Then it would identify for you the relevant page in the instrument to which you would look?‑‑‑Correct.

PN4422

If you were interested, so you would then go to page 26. You would be able to identify readily from that that those are allowances, for example, on page 26, that deal with particular categories of employees to be entitled to a meal allowance; in 18.1?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4423

You would also then, by looking at page 27, follow where the allowances are for club managers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4424

If your query related, for example, to the entitlements of a cook, you would look at 18.1(a)?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4425

If your query related to their meal allowances, you would have no difficulty in that award of finding - by reference to the table of contents and its reference to the particular page - what the allowances are payable for employees in the classifications of that award?‑‑‑Occasionally it's easy and other times you need to be aware that there are exclusions there. Like that one, for example, "Club employees other than club managers."

PN4426

Yes?‑‑‑It's quite common for a staff member to misread the manager section and think they're entitled to something.

PN4427

Yes?‑‑‑So the involvement of exclusions or "other than" makes it a little bit more difficult; but generally, yes.

PN4428

Mr Constable, you have no difficulty in drawing the distinction between managers and non‑managers?‑‑‑Sorry, no.

PN4429

If you, for example, are interested in clothing allowance in this award, you would have no difficulty in finding what the allowances are payable in respect of clothing?‑‑‑Correct.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4430

You would again adopt the same process. You would look at the table of contents; it will refer you to the relevant page. You would look at the page and, by looking at the page, you can see which allowances apply to which employees?‑‑‑Yes, with some care.

PN4431

Of course. You've got to take care?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4432

You're not suggesting that you would do this exercise without care, are you, Mr Constable?‑‑‑No.

PN4433

You are familiar with the fact that there are different allowances for different types of work?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4434

You're aware that the Club Managers Association has a magazine that is sent out to clubs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4435

To members of that association?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4436

Is your club or you a member of that association?‑‑‑You're talking about ClubsNSW?

PN4437

No, the Club Managers Association?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4438

Are you a member in your own name?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4439

In your own right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4440

You receive that magazine from time to time?‑‑‑Not a physical magazine. I receive an e‑magazine.

PN4441

It's an e‑magazine?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4442

But you get alerted to the fact that it has come through?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4443

When you do, is it monthly or quarterly?‑‑‑I can't remember, to be honest.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4444

You do remember that it covers a range of issues?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4445

That current issues concerning industrial matters are addressed from time to time?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4446

Current legal issues are addressed from time to time, about clubs getting into legal problems because of not having proper documentation or things like that?‑‑‑I can't remember a specific article, but, yes, they do cover things like that.

PN4447

You regard it as quite an important information source for managers?‑‑‑Personally, no.

PN4448

You would read it - if there was a change of the merged award and you were notified about that in that email documentation, you would obviously pay particular regard to it because you would see it as having a potential impact on your club?‑‑‑Whether I first see it there. They tend to be slow in getting news out, so I tend to find it elsewhere before I get it from the Club Managers Association.

PN4449

Port Macquarie Club is a member of ClubsNSW?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4450

It has an advice line to your knowledge?‑‑‑ClubsNSW?

PN4451

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4452

Currently members can ring that advice line to obtain advice in respect to the Clubs Award?‑‑‑Correct.

PN4453

You have no reason to doubt that if there was a merged award made out of these proceedings, clubs could ring the advice line to obtain advice in relation to the merged award?‑‑‑That's correct, they could, and there would probably be a heightened need for it.

PN4454

You would certainly take up that option to ensure that any query you had was followed up and you would seek their assistance to enable you to deal with a query?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4455

To your knowledge ClubsNSW prepares information sheets on current issues?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4456

You have no reason to believe that if there was a merged award that came out of these proceedings, you would not receive an information sheet in respect of that merged award, would you?‑‑‑That's correct. I would expect to receive it.

PN4457

Yes. You find that form of information from ClubsNSW very valuable?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4458

You're also aware that ClubsNSW has a web site?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4459

There is a section for members?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4460

That section addresses award issues?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4461

You access that web site from time to time?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4462

If you have a query in relation to any particular matter, that is a valuable source of information for you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4463

You have no reason to believe that if there was a merged award made out of these proceedings, members and you could not access that web site to obtain information on the merged award?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4464

Are you also aware that ClubsNSW has a magazine?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4465

Is that a physical or an e‑magazine?‑‑‑Both.

PN4466

Both. You receive it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4467

It's sent to your club, what, on a monthly or quarterly basis?‑‑‑Monthly.

PN4468

Monthly. You read the magazine for any particular information concerning clubs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4469

That magazine covers a range of issues affecting clubs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4470

Including employment matters?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4471

Any current employment matters you would find addressed in that magazine, in your experience?‑‑‑Not always what's current for us, but current changes or current things that are happening, yes.

PN4472

But the magazine, in your experience, can be an information source for managers, payroll and staff?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4473

You have no reason to believe that that magazine could not address changes and identify any particular changes affecting clubs if there was a merged award made in these proceedings?‑‑‑It could.

PN4474

You would expect that they would do that to assist you as a club member, would you not?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4475

Again, do you accept that that magazine could be an information source for managers, payroll and staff, and also HR staff, on a merged award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4476

You're aware that ClubsNSW has what I'm told is a TV service?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4477

Through that service, ClubsNSW holds information sessions?‑‑‑They do. I don't watch it very often.

PN4478

Well, you have watched it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4479

If you were told that there was an information session coming on that service in relation to a merged award, if that is the course that these proceedings take, you would certainly want to pay attention to that so that you were well informed?‑‑‑That's correct. Not necessarily through the TV, but as a club manager I would need to be aware of what the changes are.

PN4480

Yes. You would seek out from any one of those sources I've just identified, any assistance you had if you had any queries about how the award is now structured?‑‑‑Yes. If there was an area struggling, yes.

PN4481

Yes. You're also aware, are you not, Mr Constable, that there are other sources of information to assist employers in relation to award matters such as, firstly, the Fair Work Ombudsman's site?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4482

You have had access to that site that publishes a pay guide, for example, in relation to the Registered and Licensed Clubs Award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4483

Would you look at tab 7 in the bundle, please. You have accessed, as I understood your evidence a moment ago, that web site to get the type of information which you find on that web site?‑‑‑Yes, I have accessed that before.

PN4484

Would you please then turn to the next tab, tab 8. You're also aware that there is a facility from the Fair Work Ombudsman which you could access to get details of specific matters such as leave, employee entitlements and the like?‑‑‑I don't believe I've seen that particular page. I have accessed it for leave calculations before, but I don't recall that particular page.

PN4485

Okay. Just leave the particular page aside for the moment?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4486

As a facility - - -?‑‑‑Yes, I'm aware it's available through the Fair Work Ombudsman.

PN4487

Yes. You've used it in the past?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4488

There is no reason to suggest that if this Commission made a merged award, you would not have the ability to use that again to assist you in any query you have?‑‑‑That's correct. I'd probably need to access it more, I think.

PN4489

You're also aware, are you, that the Commission - would you look at tab 9 in the bundle?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4490

You're aware that the Fair Work Commission publishes material for the assistance of employers and employees in relation to allowances?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4491

You have had access to that web site of the Fair Work Commission from time to time to check the relevant allowances?‑‑‑Actually I've never accessed that particular section.

PN4492

Just pay attention for a moment. You know that it's available as a source of information?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4493

I took you earlier to the Clubs Award and we were talking about some allowances. If you go to page 288 of the bundle, you'll see that this - and you would agree with me, would you not, that this would be an additional source of information for you? If you look at club employees' allowances, it would tell you by reference to clause 18.1(a); and you would then have no difficulty in going to clause 18.1(a) and identifying the particular amount?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4494

Employees other than club managers, the same way; any one of the classifications that are in the award?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4495

Yes. You also know that this is a source of information, for example, when the annual wage increases are granted; the rates go up and you can go back and have a look, and double‑check that you're paying the right rates?‑‑‑Again, I don't normally access the Fair Work Commission for information. I normally access the Dragon - the Clubs Australia access - - -

PN4496

Yes. You know that this facility is available?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4497

You said so. You have no reason to believe that you would not be able to access a revised version of this if there was a merged award made out of these proceedings?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4498

You made reference a moment ago to Clubs Australia Dragon. Is that what you said?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN4499

Would you mind telling the Commission what that is?‑‑‑It's a downloadable item off the ClubsNSW web site which has current versions of the award and previous versions, and decisions and reference items within it. All these items here you're referring to, the allowances and pay tables, are accessible through that. For whatever reason, it's called a Dragon.

PN4500

Right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4501

That Dragon, in your experience, is a valuable source of information?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4502

You access that from time to time?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4503

There is no doubt, I suggest to you, Mr Constable, that if the Commission were to grant an amended or a merged award out of these proceedings, you would use that facility if you had any difficulty in interpreting the merged award?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4504

If you could not understand anything, you could use the advice line or any of the other facilities available to you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4505

Can I then ask you were you or your club, to your knowledge, approached by United Voice to pledge a commitment of some kind in relation to weekend penalty rates for the future?‑‑‑Have you got that letter there? Is that the letter?

PN4506

Sorry, you received an approach from United Voice, did you?‑‑‑Yes, we received an approach through our board to consider what their position was on it. It was the first time our board were invited or asked our opinion on the matter.

PN4507

Right. Would you look at tab 10. Do you identify that document?‑‑‑No.

PN4508

If you look at tab 11, was that a document provided to you by United Voice?‑‑‑No.

PN4509

In relation to tab 6, did you receive from United Voice a pro forma letter in the form set out at tab 6, page 143?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4510

Is that what prompted your board to make some decision about it?‑‑‑There was also a cover letter to this.

PN4511

Yes. The import from your understanding of the letter was to urge your club not to change the status quo?‑‑‑No.

PN4512

Well, what was the import of the letter?‑‑‑The import was to ask do we support what it is and asked our opinion on it.

PN4513

To support - when you said "what it is", what did you mean?‑‑‑As in (2); as it states in the letter here.

PN4514

You were asked to support - - -?‑‑‑That we do not support the application to revoke the Clubs Award.

PN4515

Yes?‑‑‑That we believe it still should be an independent award.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4516

Did, therefore, your club come to the view that it would not change any conditions in relation to your staff in relation to penalty rates?‑‑‑Well, that decision wasn't made at the time because haven't got that in front of us at the moment. The decision from our board was that they wished to try and protect our workers' pay rates.

PN4517

Did you make a commitment to United Voice that you would not reduce pay rates even if the Commission ultimately made such a decision in relation to employees of your club?‑‑‑Sorry, could you repeat that?

PN4518

Did your board make a decision that regardless of the outcome of these proceedings, your club as an employer would not reduce penalty rates for employees of your club?‑‑‑No, that decision hasn't been made yet.

PN4519

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: When did you receive that letter, Mr Constable?‑‑‑I can't remember the exact date.

PN4520

Doing the best you can?‑‑‑Probably - what are we now, we're July. I'm thinking shortly - like February, March, April. Do you have a copy of the cover letter? Sorry, your Honour.

PN4521

MR DIXON: No?‑‑‑No. I could access that information if you require it, but it's probably four to six months ago.

PN4522

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Had you been aware of the application to revoke the Clubs Award before you received the United Voice letter?‑‑‑We received circulars from ClubsNSW telling us that they had made a decision to make this application, but we didn't receive an invitation or any - I guess invitation to consult or provide information how we felt about it.

PN4523

MR DIXON: In relation to staff at the Port Macquarie club, do they remain employees for some length of time?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4524

You don't have any high turnover of staff at your club?‑‑‑No, I wouldn't call it a high turnover.

PN4525

What is the proportion of casuals as opposed to part‑time or full‑time employees?‑‑‑I think we have 30 employees, regular, and 22 are full‑time and eight casual. The casuals pick up a little bit over summer and the warmer months.

PN4526

When you said 22 full‑time employees - - -?‑‑‑Permanent employees.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4527

Permanent. Some are part‑time, are they?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN4528

The part‑timers work what sort of - do you know the breakdown between full‑time and part‑time?‑‑‑There are three part‑time employees.

PN4529

What sort of hours do they have fixed for them?‑‑‑The part‑time employees?

PN4530

Yes?‑‑‑Somewhere between 24 and 30 hours, depending on which one we're talking about.

PN4531

If there is a need, do you engage them on overtime - - -?‑‑‑No.

PN4532

- - - at any stage?‑‑‑No. We typically would use our casuals.

PN4533

You would use your casuals. Thank you. Do you engage the part‑timers on weekends?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4534

Obviously you would be having full‑time employees over the weekends, which is your busiest time, as well?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4535

There is one other question I want to ask you, just in relation to the sort of information you get from time to time. ClubsNSW has quarterly briefing sessions in your region?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4536

You attend those briefing sessions?‑‑‑Most of them, yes.

PN4537

They also are a source of information?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4538

You would get information, for example, about how clubs in your region are faring in relation to gaming revenue?‑‑‑Not from that meeting, no.

PN4539

Not from that meeting. All right. In relation to your golf club, is it an 18‑hole club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4540

Who does the maintenance of that work? Is it contracted out?‑‑‑No, they're our employees.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4541

How many employees do you engage for that purpose?‑‑‑Seven.

PN4542

There was one other thing I wanted to ask you. If I can ask you to go back to the Registered Clubs Award. You are familiar with the classification structure that is set out in paragraph - sorry, the wages structure in clause 17 of that document, are you not, Mr Constable?‑‑‑I will be. Which page are you looking at?

PN4543

It's on page 19?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4544

How many managers do you employ?‑‑‑Five.

PN4545

Five. Can you just tell the Commission where you find the classifications for those managers?‑‑‑Within this document?

PN4546

Yes?‑‑‑Whereabouts in it?

PN4547

Yes?‑‑‑Well, three of them are on level 9.

PN4548

Sorry, which page did you turn to?‑‑‑Page 21.

PN4549

Page 21, that tells you a level C manager?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4550

You would know where to go and look for what the duties are of a level C manager?‑‑‑Yes, if I had to - or what the typical role for those are, but we have other things we get them to do.

PN4551

Sure?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4552

But, I mean, if you had to look at the roles - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4553

- - - you would know exactly where to go and look for it in an award of this kind?‑‑‑Not exactly off the top of my head, but I would be able to reference it and find it.

PN4554

Okay. I think you said a level C manager is level 9 under the classification structure?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4555

How many managers?‑‑‑Three at that level.

PN4556

You will see that there is an annual salary where applicable in the right‑hand column?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4557

Do those three managers get paid above the figure of 49,838?‑‑‑I think you're referencing the wrong value there.

PN4558

Well, can you tell me where I should be referencing it?‑‑‑Level 9, level C, is 51,585.

PN4559

I beg your pardon? Could you just repeat that for me?‑‑‑Level 9, level C manager is $51,585.

PN4560

All right. I beg your pardon, I was looking at the wrong one. Do your managers get paid in excess of that 51,000 figure?‑‑‑Yes, they do.

PN4561

By a considerable amount?‑‑‑No.

PN4562

Above the threshold that would entitle them to any penalty rates and other benefits?‑‑‑For those three, yes.

PN4563

A percentage above that 20 per cent threshold?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4564

Do you have any other managers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4565

Level 10, any?‑‑‑You've got the level 13.

PN4566

Yes. How many level 13?‑‑‑That's our course superintendent; one.

PN4567

Can you identify the rate in the award for that position?‑‑‑Well, it's that base rate, the 60,000, plus the - which leaves the percentage over to take out the provisions.

PN4568

He gets paid, does he, even above that 20 per cent figure, as well?‑‑‑Yes, he would be a little bit more.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4569

So that's four managers. We have three at level 9 and one at level 13, totalling four. Are there others?‑‑‑Me.

PN4570

You, right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4571

What level are you engaged?‑‑‑Exceptional.

PN4572

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Modest?‑‑‑Mine doesn't fall under a level. It's an agreement. I don't have a specified level in my workplace agreement.

PN4573

MR DIXON: Okay, but level 13 is the top level in this instrument?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4574

I don't want your personal details, but would it be fair to say that you would be paid in excess of the manager that you identified at level 13; the course superintendent?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4575

So well above the 20 per cent threshold?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4576

I suggest to you, Mr Constable, that if the same details were in a merged award, you would have no difficulty in working out the payment rates for - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4577

That's correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4578

That is the cross‑examination, if the Commission pleases. I will seek to tender, if I may, the passages that I referred to from the cross‑examination bundle. Again, it would be more convenient that we identify the pages separately and have a discussion so that there is no - just to save time.

PN4579

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, what do you want to tender?

PN4580

MR DIXON: I want to tender the - - -

PN4581

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I'm not particularly keen on receiving restaurant menus and all that sort of thing.

PN4582

MR DIXON: Sorry, I can't hear your Honour.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE XXN MR DIXON

PN4583

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, I'm not particularly keen on receiving a bundle of restaurant menus and pictures of club facilities, and the like. I think we get the picture.

PN4584

MR DIXON: If the Commission pleases.

PN4585

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Constable, you referred to the club employing a golfing instructor. Is that person a permanent or a casual?‑‑‑Casual.

PN4586

Thank you. Any re‑examination, Mr Dowling?

PN4587

MR DOWLING: Yes, your Honour.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DOWLING [10.40 AM]

PN4588

MR DOWLING: Mr Constable, you gave some evidence and were asked some questions about what you described as ancillary services; ancillary to what you describe in your evidence as the primary focus of your club. Can I ask you in respect of that answer you gave for your club at Port Macquarie, what you say about ancillary or primary focus in respect of the Ryde‑Parramatta Golf Club?‑‑‑Well, Ryde‑Parramatta is a different structure. It's a private golf club so it's more predominantly golf‑focused and very little - they have nine gaming machines. It's .01 per cent of their income for the year. They do very little in bistro turnover. It's more food for golfers coming through halfway or food for golfers at the end of their round.

PN4589

But what is its primary focus?‑‑‑Golf.

PN4590

Can you give the answer to the same question in respect of the Avondale Golf Club as best as you're able to say?‑‑‑Yes. Primary focus again at Avondale is golf. There is zero gaming, very little restaurant. It's more food and beverage to service golfers coming through.

PN4591

Thank you very much. Now, you were asked some questions about reading the Clubs Award and you were taken in particular to the allowances at clause 18. Do you recall those questions?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE RXN MR DOWLING

PN4592

In giving your answer, part of your answer expressed a view about how staff rather than you would read the award. What, from your experience, is your expectation about that? Sorry, my apologies, I was talking about the award that is proposed as part of this application?‑‑‑I think it would make it more difficult. I see at the moment even the page that Mr Dixon referred to - I think clause 18 - if you don't turn the page, you don't straightaway see that this part applies to managers and doesn't apply to regular employees. My concern around that area was that again you're going to have within one set of rules this applies to club employees, this applies to managers, this applies to a cafe worker and to me it would make it a more difficult award for people who aren't accessing it every week to actually understand what they're entitled to or where they should be. I view it like Rugby Union and Rugby League; they're very similar, but if you try to say you've got one set of rules and this applies to league and this applies to union, the game wouldn't work.

PN4593

Thank you, Mr Constable. You were also asked some questions or you gave some evidence about a web site that you have accessed called ClubsNSW Dragon. Are you able to tell the Commission whether your employees are able to access that web site?‑‑‑Those involved in payroll functions are able to access it, but you need to have member access to ClubsNSW to get the program.

PN4594

How do you have member access?‑‑‑You're either a director or the company secretary.

PN4595

I see. So if you're a regular permanent employee of yours, do you have it?‑‑‑No.

PN4596

Thank you. No further questions, your Honour.

PN4597

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you for your evidence, Mr Constable. You're excused and you're free to go?‑‑‑Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.43 AM]

PN4598

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dowling?

PN4599

MR DOWLING: We had proposed to call Mr Unwin. I think my learned friends need a little bit of time. He is here and available, I should say, but I think our learned friends need a bit of time.

PN4600

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Need time to do what?

PN4601

MR GOTTING: We are waiting for - bringing down to the Commission, for cross‑examination, material for Mr Unwin that has not yet arrived.

*** DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE RXN MR DOWLING

PN4602

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is this more restaurant menus and things?

PN4603

MR GOTTING: No. Sorry, not principally.

PN4604

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is there another witness we can do in the meantime?

PN4605

MR DOWLING: We will find out, your Honour.

PN4606

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Can Mr Cooper come on now? He was there a second ago.

PN4607

MR DOWLING: He was when I last looked. We have both Ms Gorman and Ms Kelly - - -

PN4608

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Look, we'll take a short adjournment. The parties can advise as soon as possible when the next witness is available.

PN4609

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.45 AM]

RESUMED [11.06 AM]

PN4610

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, Ms Burke?

PN4611

MS BURKE: I call Deanna Kelly.

<DEANNA LEE KELLY, SWORN [11.07 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BURKE [11.07 AM]

PN4612

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Burke.

PN4613

MS BURKE: Ms Kelly, could you please your full name for the Commission?‑‑‑Deanna Kelly, Deanna Lee Kelly.

*** DEANNA LEE KELLY XN MS BURKE

PN4614

And your address?‑‑‑(Address supplied)

PN4615

And your occupation?‑‑‑Gaming attendant at the Central Coast Leagues Club.

PN4616

Thank you. Have you prepared a statement for use in these proceedings?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN4617

Can I ask that Ms Kelly be shown a copy of that statement, please. That folder that you have been handed has got a number of witness statements in it. Can you please turn to tab 5. I am sorry, have you got that there?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4618

You have got your statement in front of you there. Could you tell - - -?‑‑‑That's not my statement.

PN4619

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Perhaps you can just approach, Ms Burke, and take the witness to the statement.

PN4620

WITNESS: Sorry, tab 5, I was in - - -

PN4621

MS BURKE: It's a bit confusing, isn't it. Thank you, your Honour. Is that statement there 32 paragraphs?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN4622

And is it signed and dated by you on 14 May 2018?‑‑‑Correct.

PN4623

There are two annexures?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4624

I tender that statement.

PN4625

MR DIXON: No objection.

EXHIBIT #36 STATEMENT OF DEANNA LEE KELLY DATED 14/05/2018

PN4626

MS BURKE: Ms Kelly, just wait there, there will be some questions.

PN4627

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon.

PN4628

MR DIXON: If it please the Commission.

*** DEANNA LEE KELLY XN MS BURKE

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON [11.09 AM]

PN4629

Ms Kelly, I just want to ask you some questions about your club and your employer. You work at the Central Coast Leagues Club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4630

That is a club that is located in Gosford in New South Wales?‑‑‑Correct.

PN4631

And Gosford is on the central coast about 70 kilometres north of Sydney?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4632

It is located near the Central Coast Football Stadium, is it not?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4633

It's very close to the football stadium?‑‑‑Across the road.

PN4634

That football stadium has major sporting events throughout the year?‑‑‑Big time, yes.

PN4635

It hosts interstate football, soccer tournaments or games?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4636

It hosts Rugby League games?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4637

And to your knowledge those games attract fair crowds?‑‑‑They certainly do.

PN4638

And when those games are on you get a lot of custom I take it - - -?‑‑‑We do.

PN4639

- - - from people who are members of your club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4640

And also guests from elsewhere?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4641

Those games to your knowledge have been attended by not only local Gosford people but they come from all over New South Wales or even interstate?‑‑‑Correct.

PN4642

And when the games are on you would get large numbers of non-members utilising the facilities and services of your club?‑‑‑Correct.

*** DEANNA LEE KELLY XXN MR DIXON

PN4643

You are very close to the Central Coast Stadium, but your leagues club is also close to shops, restaurants and hotels in Gosford, are they not?‑‑‑Correct, yes.

PN4644

About a five minute walk you get down to the main strip where there are pubs?‑‑‑I am sorry. Yes, about five minutes.

PN4645

Can I just mention to you I think this won't amplify, so just speak as loudly as you're comfortable with?‑‑‑Okay.

PN4646

Thank you. So I think you were saying your club is about a five minute walk from where the restaurants, shops and hotels are in Gosford?‑‑‑(No audible reply)

PN4647

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Kelly, you need to give a verbal answer, not just nod, because we are trying to record this?‑‑‑Sorry. I'm sorry.

PN4648

MR DIXON: Across the road right on Brisbane Waters there is a restaurant facility or function facility?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4649

To your knowledge - it's had various names over the years, do you know what its current operations are?‑‑‑The Coast Bar. It was originally – years ago it was the Aquatic Club where the sea planes used to come in, and then it was Iguana Joe's and now it's called the Coast Bar.

PN4650

The Coast Bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4651

And that Coast Bar have you visited that facility?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN4652

Recently?‑‑‑No, not for a little while.

PN4653

Is there more than one bar or lounge bar or games bar, can you tell the Commission?‑‑‑It's on the – on the wharf. It's like all restaurant and then it's like a bar, and then I think there is a function room, but it's mainly restaurant.

PN4654

Yes. Can you tell us that in relation to your club what the facilities are; it has a number of dining places?‑‑‑Correct.

PN4655

Archie's Brassiere is one?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DEANNA LEE KELLY XXN MR DIXON

PN4656

Does that open every day - - -?‑‑‑It's 24/7.

PN4657

In other words it's open at all times for meals within every 24 hours of the day every day of the year?‑‑‑It is, yes.

PN4658

You also have a facility called Star Buffet?‑‑‑That's correct. That's the Asian all you can eat, and that is open every day of the week as well.

PN4659

All hours a week?‑‑‑Lunchtime and meals at night until probably 10 o'clock at night.

PN4660

There is also Yumen, Y-u-m-e-n, Teppanyaki Restaurant?‑‑‑Yes, correct, yes.

PN4661

And there's a Chinese Restaurant?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4662

Called Peking Garden?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4663

There's also a snack bar called Kendall's. Is Kendall's - - -?‑‑‑No. That's a cocktail bar.

PN4664

Kendall's is a cocktail bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4665

So there are how many bars, Kendall's is one?‑‑‑There's the TAB bar, there's Kendall, there's the nightclub bar and Kelly's Bar. Upstairs is closed. They're waiting to renovate upstairs.

PN4666

And the Scenic Lounge Bar?‑‑‑That is the nightclub, yes, the Scenic - - -

PN4667

That's the nightclub?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4668

What about the Bluewater Terrace Bar?‑‑‑That – that's closed now. That used to be full of poker machines, and with the new CEO we've had all renovations and everything's come downstairs from upstairs, so it's all on one level now, the whole lot, and we don't know what they're going to do with upstairs.

*** DEANNA LEE KELLY XXN MR DIXON

PN4669

So all the poker machines have come down in close vicinity to where those dining facilities are and pubs are?‑‑‑Yes, correct.

PN4670

The nightclub is still operating?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4671

It also has conference facilities?‑‑‑Yes, they do, yes.

PN4672

They hold events like wedding receptions?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4673

Business functions?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4674

And your club has a gym?‑‑‑Yes, we do.

PN4675

Do you know how many persons are employed in that gym?‑‑‑It was private at one stage, but the club has now taken it over. So I'm not 100 per cent sure how many people work there.

PN4676

It also has what one might describe as recreational facilities, I think one might be altitude training area, is that still there?‑‑‑I think it's all combined with the gym, but you're not talking about the children's – we've got a children's thing there.

PN4677

No. I am going to come to that?‑‑‑Sorry.

PN4678

Part of the gym is a sort of climbing area for adults as well?‑‑‑Yes, clip and climb.

PN4679

That's private, is it?‑‑‑I think that's private.

PN4680

I see. Do you have to have access to the club or can you come from outside to use those facilities even if you're not a member?‑‑‑Access to – access to the club. You have to sign in. We're a registered club.

PN4681

The club has, I think this is the gym you were talking to, Monkey Mania?‑‑‑That's the one, yes, Monkey Mania.

PN4682

Is Monkey Mania run by the club, it's a gym?‑‑‑No, it's private.

*** DEANNA LEE KELLY XXN MR DIXON

PN4683

It's privately run?‑‑‑But sometimes they do use some of our staff up there.

PN4684

It also has a hairdresser facility, has it?‑‑‑Yes, and a barber.

PN4685

You mentioned earlier that the shopping, pub, hotel strip is close by to your club. You would be aware that there are in close proximity to your club a number of restaurants in Gosford?‑‑‑There's not that many. In Gosford on a Saturday and Sunday the place is dead. It's so quiet. There's nothing there, nothing really opens. The shopping centre does and closes about 4, but because there's no people there on the weekend everything's closed. If you walk down Main Street in Gosford on the weekend it's all closed.

PN4686

There are a number of bars in Gosford, are there not, other than the Brisbane Waters bars you refer to?‑‑‑You have the Gosford Hotel.

PN4687

Yes?‑‑‑And then you have the Central Coast Hotel, and they're the only two, and then our club, then Coast Bar is over on the water and around on the water is the Gosford Sailing Club, and also we do have an RSL club which is over the bridge and down further.

PN4688

At East Gosford?‑‑‑West Gosford, sorry.

PN4689

West Gosford?‑‑‑West Gosford, yes.

PN4690

There is also Settlers Tavern?‑‑‑That's right, yes.

PN4691

That's got a pub?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4692

Duttons Tavern?‑‑‑Duttons has been pulled down and they're building – a guy by the name of John Singleton's building a multinational building there, and I think there's going to be a bar underneath or something, something like that.

PN4693

Elanora Hotel has - - -?‑‑‑Sorry?

PN4694

I beg your pardon?‑‑‑It was a hotel, Duttons, a little – it was just a little tavern off the street.

PN4695

The Elanora Hotel?‑‑‑Yes, that's West Gosford.

*** DEANNA LEE KELLY XXN MR DIXON

PN4696

That's got a pub?‑‑‑Yes, that's a pub.

PN4697

And Woodport Inn?‑‑‑That's right out at Erina.

PN4698

Kariong Tavern is not far away?‑‑‑Kariong's right up on the hill as you come into Gosford. To drive down to Gosford that's Kariong up there.

PN4699

That's a tavern that serves liquor as well, is it?‑‑‑I think so.

PN4700

The Central Coast Hotel has a nightclub to your knowledge?‑‑‑It does.

PN4701

And the Hotel Gosford has a bar and a brasserie?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4702

And you serve in the bar from time to time?‑‑‑I do.

PN4703

You have a certificate that you had to obtain to serve alcohol in the bar or the restaurant?‑‑‑I do, yes.

PN4704

Did you go and get that certificate elsewhere?‑‑‑I – I did the refresher course at the club, but I worked in another club before the Central Coast Leagues Club where I did it all at that club.

PN4705

That's the cross-examination.

PN4706

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination?

PN4707

MS BURKE: No, your Honour. May the witness be excused?

PN4708

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thanks for your evidence, Ms Kelly, you are excused and you're free to go?‑‑‑Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.21 AM]

PN4709

Who is next, Mr Dowling?

*** DEANNA LEE KELLY XXN MR DIXON

PN4710

MR DOWLING: Mr Unwin. He is here and outside and my instructor has just gone to – there are parts of his statement that are not to be read which I can clarify. We have identified them to our learned friends.

PN4711

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN4712

MR DOWLING: I can clarify whilst Mr Unwin is on his way. Paragraph 10 is not to be read. Paragraphs 14 and 15 are not to be read. Paragraph 16, the first sentence remains, but the balance is not to be read. Paragraph 18 is not to be read. Paragraph 19 - - -

PN4713

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So paragraph 18?

PN4714

MR DOWLING: Paragraph 18 is not to be read.

PN4715

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN4716

MR DOWLING: Paragraph 19 is not to be read. Mr Unwin wishes to make a correction to paragraph 20, so that the second line reads, "If they are paid reduced penalty rates" in place of the words "If they are not paid penalty rates." In paragraph 23 Mr Unwin wishes to make a correction, the words "The proposal" are not to be read, and the words "And/or eliminate" are not to be read. They are the deletions and the corrections.

PN4717

MR GOTTING: Your Honour, I also have some other objections that I wish to raise.

PN4718

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Just hold on a second. Just checking, am I right in saying that the amended application would not reduce penalty rates for maintenance and horticultural employees? I am just looking at what's in green on page 46.

PN4719

MR GOTTING: It has copied across the provisions from the clubs award into the proposed merged award, and in that sense for maintenance and horticultural employees it will be the same as the existing arrangements.

PN4720

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So there's objection?

PN4721

MR GOTTING: Yes. The first is to paragraph 8. I am conscious that similar objections have been raised previously and the ruling has been to admit such material. I formally press the objection, but I anticipate the same ruling as before.

PN4722

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The part about the modern awards objectives is just straight out submission, isn't it, Mr Dowling?

PN4723

MR DOWLING: Yes, your Honour.

PN4724

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: If we strike out everything up to and including the word "rather".

PN4725

MR DOWLING: Yes, and the paragraph starts "If".

PN4726

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, all right, I will make that amendment.

PN4727

MR GOTTING: The next objection is to paragraph 17 and in particular the second sentence in paragraph 17. My submission is that that material represents a submission and conclusion.

PN4728

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Although it appears to borrow some of the words of the Act nonetheless it's a statement made by him about living standards, isn't it. He can make that statement. I will admit that sentence.

PN4729

MR GOTTING: The next objection is to paragraph 21 and needs to be the entirety of the paragraph. The basis is submission and conclusion.

PN4730

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, I will allow that paragraph.

PN4731

MR GOTTING: The final objection is to paragraph 23 in its modified form. I am conscious though that objections of that kind have been raised previously, and - - -

PN4732

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, that paragraph will be admitted.

PN4733

MR GOTTING: Those represent all of the objections to the statement as read in that modified way.

<MARK JEFFREY UNWIN, AFFIRMED [11.28 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DOWLING [11.28 AM]

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XN MR DOWLING

PN4734

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour. Mr Unwin, could you please repeat your full name?‑‑‑Mark Jeffrey Unwin.

PN4735

Your address?‑‑‑(Address supplied)

PN4736

And your occupation?‑‑‑CEO of the Australian Golf Course Superintendents Association.

PN4737

Thank you very much. You have prepared a statement for the purpose of this proceeding?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4738

You have a folder in front of you, if you could please turn to tab 7 behind that folder. Do you have there a document headed "Statement of Mark Unwin"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4739

Is what follows a statement of six pages and 26 paragraphs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4740

Signed by you on 10 May of 2018?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4741

There has been some – as a result of your instructions there has been some deletions and we have informed the Commission of those. I just want to clarify the corrections though. At paragraph 20 do you wish the second sentence – sorry, I shall read the entire paragraph. Do you wish to correct it so that it reads as follows:

PN4742

I believe that the maintenance and horticultural staff would be disinclined to conduct regular maintenance work on weekends if they are paid reduced penalty rates resulting in less maintenance and general horticultural work taking place on weekends. Golf courses require maintenance and management work to be undertaken every day.

PN4743

That's the correction you wish to make?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4744

Thank you. In paragraph 23 you wish to correct that so that it reads as follows:

PN4745

In what is already a difficulty industry to attract employees due to comparatively low rates of pay, to reduce weekend and public holiday penalty rates will reduce the ability of golf clubs to attract and retain employees throughout the industry.

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XN MR DOWLING

PN4746

Is that the correction you wish to make?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4747

Thank you very much. With those corrections and subject to the objections and the deletions I tender Mr Unwin's statement, your Honour.

EXHIBIT #R37 STATEMENT OF MARK UNWIN DATED 10/05/2018 SUBJECT TO EARLIER IDENTIFIED DELETIONS AND RULINGS

PN4748

Thank you, your Honour. Just wait there, Mr Unwin.

PN4749

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon.

PN4750

MR GOTTING: Your Honour, I might handle this witness.

PN4751

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Gotting. Sorry.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GOTTING [11.31 AM]

PN4752

MR GOTTING: Mr Unwin, my name is Gotting and I appear for Clubs Australia Industrial. I understand that you're the chief executive officer of the Australian Golf Course Superintendents Association. Is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4753

Could you tell me what your qualifications are?‑‑‑I have around 20 years of management experience in a range of industries, primarily advertising, publishing events. In terms of formal qualifications I hold none.

PN4754

Thank you. Am I right in understanding that you have held your position as chief executive officer since 25 September 2017?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4755

You have a LinkedIn profile?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4756

Could I ask you to look at a folder of material. Mr Unwin, could I ask you to go to the material behind tab 6 of the folder.

PN4757

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: You mean tab 7?

PN4758

MR GOTTING: Tab 7, yes?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XXN MR GOTTING

PN4759

Is that a copy of your current LinkedIn profile?‑‑‑It looks to be, yes.

PN4760

You will see the first item that's addressed in that profile under the heading "Experience as CEO"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4761

In the first full paragraph you refer to the association as having grown steadily in size and now boasting over one thousand members from all states of Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific wing?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4762

How many members of your association are from the states of Australia?‑‑‑Approximately 1200 active members.

PN4763

How many are from New Zealand?‑‑‑Around about 150.

PN4764

And how many from the Pacific wing?‑‑‑I would suggest around about a hundred.

PN4765

Within your 1200 members within Australia are you able to indicate the proportion that are golf superintendents as opposed to assistant golf superintendents?‑‑‑The superintendents would make up about 75 to 80 per cent of our membership base.

PN4766

Does the superintendents cover both superintendents and assistant superintendents?‑‑‑No. Assistant superintendents is a separate membership category.

PN4767

In terms of the assistant superintendent membership category what proportion of people of your total membership fall in that category?‑‑‑Around about another 10 per cent.

PN4768

Could you indicate the balance of the membership, what type of - - -?‑‑‑Primarily ground staff, and that makes up technicians, mechanics, sports turf managers, qualified greens keepers.

PN4769

Returning to your LinkedIn profile in the next paragraph you set out the functions of the association?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4770

And the last one is:

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XXN MR GOTTING

PN4771

The development and provision of guidelines and standards of employment of golf course superintendents and maintenance staff.

PN4772

?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4773

What is involved in the development of guidelines and standards of employment of golf course superintendents?‑‑‑Primarily position descriptions that are provided to members to be able to utilise on their golf course.

PN4774

Are you also involved in developing standard forms of contracts of employment for your members?‑‑‑In templates, yes.

PN4775

As a result of your work in developing the position descriptions and the contract templates I take it you have developed a familiarity with the clubs award?‑‑‑To some degree, yes.

PN4776

Am I also correct in understanding that apart from the clubs award some of your members are covered by the hospitality award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4777

And a third group of your members are covered by the amusement award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4778

Are you able to indicate to the members of the Full Bench the proportion of your membership within Australia that are covered by the clubs award?‑‑‑Unfortunately, no, I don't, I can't answer that.

PN4779

Are you able to indicate to the members of the Full Bench the proportion of your membership that is covered by the hospitality award?‑‑‑Again, no.

PN4780

For completeness in terms of the amusement award?‑‑‑Again, no.

PN4781

Is it the case that some of the golf superintendents that are members of your association are contractors rather than employees to clubs?‑‑‑I'm sure there are some instances, yes.

PN4782

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Just go back a step. Mr Unwin, obviously the clubs award would apply to your members employed on club golf courses, is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XXN MR GOTTING

PN4783

Hospitality would apply where a hotel or resort has a golf course?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4784

Any other examples where hospitality would apply?‑‑‑I would suggest that there's a few, and for the sake of uniformity some clubs would, I would suggest, hold all employees under the same award irrespective of the role inside the club or outside the club, if that makes sense.

PN4785

In what sort of places would the amusement award apply to a golf superintendent?‑‑‑Again similar, because the amusement award is from my understanding amusement and events, so events often held by golf courses or golf clubs. So then there would be members that are under that award.

PN4786

Thank you.

PN4787

MR GOTTING: I think you indicated earlier that there were some instances of your members who were contractors rather than employees to the clubs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4788

Are you able to indicate the number of contractors rather than employees?‑‑‑No.

PN4789

Then can I ask you to return to your LinkedIn profile behind tab 7. The next item under the heading "Experience" is your role as general manager for Blitz Publications and the Multi-Media Group?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4790

Am I correct in understanding that in your role as general manager of that group there was no connection with golf courses?‑‑‑No connection with golf courses, no.

PN4791

And there was no connection with golf course superintendents?‑‑‑Directly, no. One of the magazines that we published at Blitz Publications was a golf magazine, but no direct contact with superintendents, no.

PN4792

Equally there was no direct connection with golf course managers?‑‑‑No.

PN4793

Just returning to your LinkedIn profile the earlier jobs that you have set out there were in relation to census?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4794

The work there was not connected to golf courses?‑‑‑No, it wasn't.

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XXN MR GOTTING

PN4795

And was not connected to golf course superintendents?‑‑‑No.

PN4796

And it was not connected to golf course managers?‑‑‑No.

PN4797

I asked you about the work that you did developing guidelines and standards for employees and you indicated that that extended to position descriptions and template contracts. Does that development of guidelines also extend to the development of position descriptions and contracts for the contractors?‑‑‑It may be utilised by contractors, yes. We provide them for golf courses. We can then utilise them for staff.

PN4798

Thank you. Mr Unwin, can I then ask you to go to paragraph 5 of your statement, please?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4799

In paragraph 5 you refer to golf course maintenance staff, but you also refer to agronomists?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4800

What number of your membership would be agronomists?‑‑‑It's an interesting question. I'll try and explain it like this. There is no set number that I'm aware of, the reason being some golf course superintendents are titled agronomists. Some golf course superintendents are provisionally given the job description of agronomist.

PN4801

So when I was asking you earlier about your membership and you indicated that between 75 to 85 per cent of your membership was golf course superintendents - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4802

- - - I should take that as extending to agronomists?‑‑‑Well, agronomy is a field.

PN4803

The agronomists are included in the 75 to 80(sic) per cent?‑‑‑Yes. Sorry, yes, they are.

PN4804

In paragraph 5 you also refer to sports turf staff?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4805

Are you able to indicate the number of your members that are sports turf staff?‑‑‑Number, no, but I would say it sits around about 5 per cent or less.

PN4806

The people that are members who are sports turf staff are not covered by the clubs award?‑‑‑They may or may not be.

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XXN MR GOTTING

PN4807

Is it the case that in the course of 2018 you conducted a survey of your members?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4808

Are you able to indicate to the members of the Commission when you conducted that survey in 2018?‑‑‑I believe it was January or February 2018.

PN4809

Did you conduct the survey yourself or did someone do it on your behalf?‑‑‑No, it was myself and my team.

PN4810

How did you conduct that survey?‑‑‑Online.

PN4811

Do I take it that you sent the survey to your members using electronic means, is that what you mean by online?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct, SurveyMonkey was the platform that we used.

PN4812

I understand. You had a set series of questions to send to the participants?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4813

They were asked to complete the survey online?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4814

And then the data from the survey was sent to your organisation?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4815

Did you prepare the questions?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4816

Do I take it from the use of SurveyMonkey that the collation of the answers was done by the operators of SurveyMonkey rather than you?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4817

How many of your members were invited to participate in the survey in 2018?‑‑‑All.

PN4818

Can I ask you to go to the document behind tab 1 of the folder in front of you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4819

You are aware that Clubs Australia requested you to produce data relating to the survey?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4820

You produced material in response to that request?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XXN MR GOTTING

PN4821

And I can indicate to you, Mr Unwin, that the material behind tab 1 in the folder is the material that you supplied in response to that request. Can I ask you to look at the first page behind tab 1?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4822

Does that record the first question in the survey?‑‑‑It appears to.

PN4823

Do you see the section under the question "Answer 289"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4824

Do you understand that that answer 289 indicates that there were 289 participants - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4825

- - - that answered that question?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4826

And that's the survey that we are talking about in 2018?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4827

Could I then ask you to turn to the third page, I think it's marked 3 of 15?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4828

Do you see on that page question 3:

PN4829

Please indicate which industry role best relates to you.

PN4830

?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4831

Do you see under that question there's answer 289?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4832

Do you understand that 289 people answered this question?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4833

Then the presentation of the bar graph that appears under the question has been automatically generated by the SurveyMonkey operators?‑‑‑That's correct, based on the responses.

PN4834

And then beneath the bar graph there is a table?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4835

That table has been generated by the operators of the SurveyMonkey program?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XXN MR GOTTING

PN4836

In that table there's an indication of the responses?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4837

In terms of golf course superintendents do you see that 71 per cent of the participants were golf course superintendents?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4838

Is that how you understand material on that page is to indicate?‑‑‑That's how – that's how I read it, yes.

PN4839

Thank you. If you look in the table you will see that the third last item is consultant/contractor?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4840

On the far right-hand column there's the number 4. Do you understand that line in the table to indicate that there were four people that characterised themselves as a consultant or a contractor?‑‑‑That responded to the survey, yes.

PN4841

Thank you. Could I then ask you to look at page 6 of 15?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4842

Do you see on that page question 6:

PN4843

Please indicate if you work at /4A.

PN4844

?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4845

You will see under that question there's the answer 289?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4846

Do I understand once again that 289 participants answered this question?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4847

And like the earlier bar graph the bar graph was generated by the operators of the SurveyMonkey program?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4848

And once again like the earlier page the table that appears was automatically generated by the operators of the SurveyMonkey program?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4849

Do you see in the table the fourth last item is "Council other than GC"?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XXN MR GOTTING

PN4850

I take it the GC is a golf course?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4851

Does that indicate that eight participants identified them as being working at a council body rather than a golf course?‑‑‑Other than a golf course, yes.

PN4852

Then the third last item "School"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4853

The second last item "Stadium". In terms of those three items that I have drawn your attention to specifically do you understand that those persons would not be covered by the clubs award?‑‑‑Some may. I'm not in a position to know for sure.

PN4854

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Unwin, just on this page, I appreciate you didn't answer the questions, but I understand you developed them. So a semi private club; what at least did you have in mind by the reference to a semi private club?‑‑‑So a semi private club would be where it retains members, but also has the ability for guests to play, and that is usually accompanied by a member of the club.

PN4855

They may or may not be a licenced club?‑‑‑They may or may not be a licenced club, yes.

PN4856

Thank you. So what's a private golf course?‑‑‑A wholly member based. So there are no visitor green fees payable, which means that no general public can turn up and play a game without the invitation of a member.

PN4857

Public, is that a council golf course?‑‑‑Often council run, yes.

PN4858

But not always, is that the case?‑‑‑But not always, yes.

PN4859

Thank you.

PN4860

MR GOTTING: Then can I ask you to turn to page 7 of 15, and there's no bar graph on this page, but it was generated in the same way as you understand?‑‑‑Yes, it was.

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XXN MR GOTTING

PN4861

There's an entry there for volunteers. Can you indicate what's meant by the reference there volunteers?‑‑‑So the question being asked is how many people are employed to maintain the turf or the greens at your facility. Some golf course facilities have a volunteer program that they run, and it might be members or it might be council groups or it might be return to work programs and those sorts of things to help out with the maintenance side of the course. So that could be anything from sweeping, cleaning, pulling weeds, those sorts of things.

PN4862

And those persons that are described as volunteers are not employees?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4863

Do I take it that the answer choices that are set out there on page 7 were the choices that you framed when you developed the question?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4864

And you anticipated that there were at the time that you prepared the question a series of volunteers that maintained the turf or the green areas at a golf club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4865

Can I trouble you to turn to the next page, please. The numbering seems to start again at 1 of 1?‑‑‑I have 8 of 15.

PN4866

Can you stick with the 8 of 15, I'm sorry, I have a different format, but is that question 8:

PN4867

Please select which award you are employed under.

PN4868

?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4869

Once again the data that appears on that page was prepared in the same way by the operators of the SurveyMonkey program?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4870

There's a reference there to Gardening and Landscaping Services Award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4871

What are the type of people that are covered by – your members that are covered by that award?‑‑‑They could be contractors, they could be horticulturists, vegetation managers.

PN4872

The next item in the table is "Enterprise bargaining agreement". Does that mean that the participants identified themselves as being covered by an enterprise agreement rather than a relevant award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4873

Is it your experience that some of the golf clubs have entered into enterprise agreements with their employees?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XXN MR GOTTING

PN4874

Those employees extend to some of your members?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4875

Can I then ask you to go to the next page, 9 of 15. Do you have that page?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4876

Do I understand that in terms of the 274 participants that answered this question all of them indicated that they worked Monday to Friday?‑‑‑I'm not sure that that's how I read that.

PN4877

How do you read it?‑‑‑So this is "Indicate your average hours" and there's no indication of average hours on this question. This is just responses of 100 per cent, indicating that there are some people who work some hours during Monday to Friday.

PN4878

I see. Thank you. Can I then ask you to turn to page 11 of 15?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4879

One of the questions you asked in the survey was about weekend penalty rates?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4880

The options that the participants had were set out in the answers choices table?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN4881

Am I right that your understanding is that 14.96 per cent of people that answered this question regarded themselves as being paid weekend penalty rates?‑‑‑In answer to that direct question, yes, I am pain weekend penalty rates, that's 14.96, yes.

PN4882

18.98 per cent of participants indicated that they were paid at a higher rate that includes the weekend penalty rates?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4883

I take it that you drafted that question, "I am" - or that response:

PN4884

I am paid at a higher rate that includes weekend penalties.

PN4885

?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XXN MR GOTTING

PN4886

Was that response to indicate that the person was paid a certain percentage above the highest award rate and therefore were not to be entitled to penalty rates under the relevant award?‑‑‑The question was framed to indicate that you receive a higher rate.

PN4887

I see. It doesn't address the issue of the threshold that applies under the Clubs Award where the penalty rates does not apply?‑‑‑No, there was no direct question about - - -

PN4888

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So Mr Unwin, on this page 35 per cent said they're not paid penalty rates?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4889

If we just compare that to page 9, less than 15 per cent don't work Saturdays and less than 34 per cent don't work Sundays, how do we line up those two figures?‑‑‑I'm not sure I know the answer to the question of how to line them up.

PN4890

Or whether there's an explanation for the apparent disparity?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4891

Can you think of any explanation, for example, the large number of persons not paid penalty rates are contractors or something like that?‑‑‑I would suggest that there might be an enterprise agreement in place for those, or contractors.

PN4892

Thank you.

PN4893

MR GOTTING: Mr Unwin, can I asked you to go a fair through that tab and find an indication of Question 12, and that says 1 of 7 down the bottom. It's about four fifths of the way through the bundle?‑‑‑Question 12 indicates 1 of 7, yes.

PN4894

Is that question:

PN4895

Please indicate how many public holidays you work per year? There are approximately 10 per year.

PN4896

?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4897

Then over the next seven pages do I understand each of the responses that were entered by the participants is there set out?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4898

So the first participant indicated that they worked five public holidays in a year?‑‑‑That's how I read it, yes.

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XXN MR GOTTING

PN4899

The third indicated that they worked three in a year?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4900

Thank you. Then can I ask you to go to the next question which is Question 13, 1 of 1?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4901

Is that question starting, "For the public holidays I work"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4902

Then:

PN4903

One of the options I'm paid public holiday penalty rates.

PN4904

?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4905

And 14.96 per cent of participants indicated that they were paid such penalty rates?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4906

18.25 per cent indicated that they took time in lieu of being paid for the public holidays?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN4907

37.23 per cent indicated that they were not paid public holidays rates?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4908

Then can I ask you to turn to the next page, Question 14?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4909

1 of 7, is that - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4910

Question 14 asks the participant to indicate their base salary exclusive of superannuation?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4911

There were 274 participants that answered that question?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4912

Each of the responses is then set out?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4913

Thank you. Mr Unwin, you understand the Hospitality Award contains penalty rates?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XXN MR GOTTING

PN4914

You understand that the Hospitality Award contains Saturday and Sunday penalty rates?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4915

You understand that the Hospitality Award provides for Saturday penalty rates for permanent employees at 125 per cent?‑‑‑Off the top of my head I can't recall the figure so I'll take your word for that.

PN4916

Do you understand - I'm happy for you to check if you want but I don't think there's any violent objection to me being inaccurate from anyone at the Bar table. Do you understand that in terms of the Clubs Award the penalty rates for Saturday is for the first two hours after 12 pm being at 200 per cent?‑‑‑Again I would go with you on that.

PN4917

I understand. Just as a matter of fairness, you do not have these sorts of figures at the top of your - - -?‑‑‑No, off the top of my head I don't.

PN4918

I understand. In that sense you would defer to the terms of the relevant award to find out the relevant penalty rate?‑‑‑Absolutely. Where I answered the question I would refer to the award.

PN4919

I understand. I take it that you're familiar with the use of how to use the relevant awards?‑‑‑I believe so, yes.

PN4920

You start with the table of contents?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4921

At the front. You look for the relevant heading that relates to the issue you're examining?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4922

You then turn to the relevant clause?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4923

You read the clause from start to finish?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4924

Then you hopefully find your answer?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4925

You are also aware that the Fair Work Ombudsman has an online service in which you can determine the pay rates for various classifications under the awards?‑‑‑I'm aware of that, yes.

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XXN MR GOTTING

PN4926

Have you used that facility yourself?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN4927

Are you also aware that the Fair Work Ombudsman has a pay and conditions tool online that you can use in addition to the pay guides?‑‑‑I don't think I've ever utilised that, service.

PN4928

I see. Can I ask you to look behind tab 3?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4929

This is a printout of the relevant page from the first Fair Work Ombudsman that deals with the pay and conditions tool?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4930

Have you seen this tool before?‑‑‑I recall having seen this before, yes.

PN4931

Have you used it before?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN4932

Thank you. Are you aware that the Fair Work Commission publishes a table that sets out all of the allowances under each of the awards?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4933

Have you used that table before to determine the allowances for your members?‑‑‑I have referred to that table, yes.

PN4934

Am I right in understanding that you can use those websites yourself to advise your members as to their terms and conditions of employment?‑‑‑When required, yes.

PN4935

Additionally you're able to direct your members to those websites if they themselves want to work out their terms and conditions of employment?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4936

Do you have a group email that you send out to all of your emails from time to time? Sorry, I'll withdraw that. Do you have a group email that you send out to your members from time to time?‑‑‑We have a weekly newsletter if that's what you're referring to.

PN4937

Yes, and is that sent to your members by electronic means?‑‑‑It's sent to members and non-members by electronic means, yes.

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XXN MR GOTTING

PN4938

The weekly newsletter covers current issues that relate to golf superintendents?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4939

If there's a current issue relating to terms and conditions of employment you could address that issue in your weekly newsletter?‑‑‑Potentially, yes.

PN4940

If this Commission at the end of this proceeding decided to make a merged award, you could address that merged - the making of that merged award in your weekly newsletter?‑‑‑There's potential to do so, yes.

PN4941

One of the things that you could do in that weekly newsletter if there was a merger of the award is set out the details of the effect of the merger of the award for the benefit of your members?‑‑‑We possibly could, yes.

PN4942

Well it's likely isn't it that you would send out such details in the weekly newsletters to your members if such a merger of an award occurred?‑‑‑We may indicate. We may also provide information on the outcome. We may also provide relevant tools and links to websites to go to find out information.

PN4943

Thank you. Mr Unwin, do you know the Gunnedah Golf Club?‑‑‑I have heard of the Gunnedah Golf Club, yes.

PN4944

Are you able to indicate how many of your members work at the Gunnedah Golf Club?‑‑‑Off the top of my head, no.

PN4945

Thank you, that completes the cross-examination.

PN4946

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination?

PN4947

MR DOWLING: No re-examination. If Mr Unwin might be excused.

PN4948

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, thanks for your evidence, Mr Unwin. You're excused and you're free to go.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.09 PM]

PN4949

MR GOTTING: Your Honour, in due course I'll identify the relevant pages from the bundle upon which I tender.

*** MARK JEFFREY UNWIN XXN MR GOTTING

PN4950

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Right. Who's the next witness? You can just leave that there please, thank you.

PN4951

MR DOWLING: Ms Gorman and she's being obtained right now. Ms Burke will take Ms Gorman.

PN4952

MR RYAN: Excuse me, your Honour, there is a hearing at 1 o'clock, a directions hearing on Level 11 by video link to Melbourne before his Honour the President which is a matter I'm involved in. If we're not adjourned by 1 o'clock can I have leave to attend that hearing?

PN4953

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Certainly, but I was going to indicate at some stage that I intend to adjourn at 10 to one.

PN4954

MR RYAN: May it please.

PN4955

MS BURKE: Sorry, your Honour, she's on Level 11 where our room is so it takes a little while to bring her up.

PN4956

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is there any objections to deal with?

PN4957

MS BURKE: No.

PN4958

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, while we're waiting, and you don't need to answer this right away but in the proposed award perhaps I've missed something. I couldn't quite work out where club gaming attendants fitted in.

PN4959

MR DIXON: Could you - - -

PN4960

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Club gaming attendants. You don't have to answer it now but if you'd just address that at some stage.

PN4961

MS BURKE: Thank you, your Honour. I call Magdalena Gorman.

PN4962

THE ASSOCIATE: Could you just state your full name and your address please.

PN4963

MS GORMAN: Magdalena Maria Gorman, (address supplied).

<MAGDALENA MARIA GORMAN, SWORN [12.12 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BURKE [12.12 PM]

PN4964

MS BURKE: Take a seat, Ms Gorman. Could you please repeat your full name for the Commission?‑‑‑Magdalena Marie Gorman.

PN4965

Your address?‑‑‑(Address supplied)

PN4966

Your occupation?‑‑‑Club employee.

PN4967

Have you prepared a statement for the use in this proceeding?‑‑‑I have.

PN4968

You should have a folder in front of you in the witness box there. Could you have a look please behind tab 4 of that folder?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4969

Sorry, are there two folders there with you in the witness box?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4970

Can I ask you to just hold up that second one there and if you could give that to the Associate please, I think that's from a previous witness. So do you have your statement there in front of you?‑‑‑I do, yes.

PN4971

Headed statement of Magdalena Gorman?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4972

Is that - if you just turn to the end, is that 33 paragraphs?‑‑‑It is.

PN4973

Is it signed and dated by you, signed by you and dated 10 May 2018?‑‑‑It is, yes.

PN4974

Is there one annexure?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4975

With leave I just need to lead some corrections. I've spoken to my friend about that?

PN4976

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

*** MAGDALENA MARIA GORMAN XN MS BURKE

PN4977

MS BURKE: Ms Gorman, can I ask you please to turn to paragraph 16 of your statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4978

In that statement which is dated May you said you were at that point on a return to work plan. Can you tell the Commission now how many hours you're working a week?‑‑‑It was roughly between 30 and 35 hours at that time.

PN4979

What about right now?‑‑‑I'm back to 38 hours as it was.

PN4980

Thank you. Can I ask you please to turn to paragraph 25 of your statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4981

In the second sentence there, do you wish to delete the words "Monday to Friday"?‑‑‑I do.

PN4982

With those corrections are the contents of your statement true and correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4983

Thank you. I tender that statement.

PN4984

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The statement of Magdalena Maria Gorman dated 10 May 2018 will be marked exhibit 38.

EXHIBIT #38 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MAGDALENA MARIA GORMAN DATED 10/05/2018

PN4985

MS BURKE: Thank you, your Honour. Thank you, Ms Gorman, just wait there, there will be some more questions?‑‑‑Thank you.

PN4986

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON [12.15 PM]

PN4987

MR DIXON: Ms Gorman, can you assist persons who are not familiar with the location of your club where it is in reference to Sydney in New South Wales?‑‑‑So Doyalson RSL Club is in - is on the Central Coast, between Doyalson and Wyee, so it's about 100 kilometres north from Sydney.

PN4988

It's south of Gosford?‑‑‑North of Gosford.

*** MAGDALENA MARIA GORMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN4989

North of Gosford?‑‑‑So it's between Gosford and Newcastle basically.

PN4990

Thank you. Now you presently work in your club in what capacity?‑‑‑I have been a full-time employee working either at reception or bar attendant, pokie floor, change box attendant.

PN4991

Sorry, could you just take those a little bit more slowly. Reception, bar attendant?‑‑‑Pokie floor attendant, cash box cashier, bus driver, door person, I've done pretty much everything there.

PN4992

Your RSL club has a number of dining facilities available to members and guests?‑‑‑Yes, we do.

PN4993

Is it still the case that there is one dining facility called Smokehouse?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4994

Can you describe the nature of that facility?‑‑‑Smokehouse, it's our alfresco dining restaurant. It's based on American style smoked meat and the way they cook things. It's a bit - it's a bit more upmarket than just your normal restaurant. It's better quality, a bit more fancy cuisines offered there.

PN4995

Do employees of the club, persons actually employed by the club work in that facility?‑‑‑Yes.

PN4996

Is there - is that open for lunch and dinner?‑‑‑It is. It's closed Mondays and Tuesdays and re-opens Wednesday nights.

PN4997

Tempt Fine Foods is another outlet is it?‑‑‑Yes, that's our main restaurant. It's open seven days a week both for lunch and dinner.

PN4998

There's a café?‑‑‑We do - yes, we do have a - - -

PN4999

What's the café called?‑‑‑Kokoda Café and Bar there.

PN5000

What does that - what's the opening hours?‑‑‑So that's the same as our restaurant. Monday - seven days a week from morning till sort of late evening.

*** MAGDALENA MARIA GORMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN5001

The club has two bars?‑‑‑Yes, we've got a main sports bar, the biggest bar in the club. We've got a smaller one Kokoda bar which is next to the café but we do also have the Smokehouse bar that's sort of attached the Smokehouse Restaurant outside, so it's sort of the outdoor part of the club.

PN5002

Is that where they promote craft beers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5003

That's a recent development is it?‑‑‑Probably three years now.

PN5004

If you want to go and utilise the refreshments served there, do you have to sign in into the club or is that access from - anyone - - -?‑‑‑No, you have to - yes, you have to come - you have to come through the club and sign in.

PN5005

The sports bar, it would promote events such as football games or all - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5006

State of Origin matches?‑‑‑Yes, we've got a - we've got a big screen in the sports bar lounge so that's our - all main sporting events are shown in there or if you want to watch the same thing but outdoors you can go to the Smokehouse area there, there's a big screen there.

PN5007

In that area there would be - sorry, has your club got function facilities?‑‑‑We do have a few function rooms as well as a big auditorium.

PN5008

What's that used for?‑‑‑Function rooms we do have birthday parties, engagements et cetera, as well as some corporate meetings or birthday parties and that and the auditorium mostly for weddings, wedding receptions, concerts, any comedy shows that are shown by the club.

PN5009

The club has an active fitness gym associated with it does it?‑‑‑Yes, we've got - - -

PN5010

On the premises or separate attached to the premises?‑‑‑Attached to the premises.

PN5011

Anyone can go into that fitness gym, you don't have to be a member?‑‑‑You don't - anyone can go to the gym, there are obviously different fees for them but you have to be a member of our club to join the gym.

PN5012

But you can access the gym without signing into the club?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MAGDALENA MARIA GORMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN5013

Are you familiar with pubs in the area where your RSL club is located?‑‑‑Yes, I am.

PN5014

Are there a number of pubs close by?‑‑‑In the - yes, in the area probably 10, 15 minute drive to the - - -

PN5015

Yes, how many do you - I'm not suggesting you personally go there but you might just indicate a number that you're familiar with?‑‑‑I'm not too sure. There is a few, probably - I know of one that's nearby. Everything else maybe it's more like a smaller club than an actual pub.

PN5016

Do you know whether that pub would promote sports events of the same kind as your sports bar or - State of Origin or World Club soccer, events like that?‑‑‑They usually have a website that they promote stuff on or just do posters in the pub's windows or something like that.

PN5017

Also have you seen posters for sporting events such as the State of Origin games?‑‑‑In the pub?

PN5018

Yes?‑‑‑I haven't seen them, no.

PN5019

Do you know whether that pub that you have in mind, do you know the name?‑‑‑Budgewoi Hotel.

PN5020

Now do you know whether the employees of the gym are employed by your club or whether they're employed by the operator of the gym?‑‑‑Most of employees are employed by the club now, although there are - some fitness instructors are employed as contractors.

PN5021

By the club or - - -?‑‑‑By the club, yes.

PN5022

Now you mention Ms Gorman that you have been undertaking several courses in hospitality?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5023

That you have completed a Certificate III in Hospitality?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5024

When did you complete that course?‑‑‑2015.

*** MAGDALENA MARIA GORMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN5025

Who provided you with that training for that course?‑‑‑It was a training group hired by the club.

PN5026

Were there only club employees attending that course or were there people from other hospitality outlets?‑‑‑The one I was doing it was just for the employees of the club. It was just - - -

PN5027

But was it your understanding that with that certificate it qualified you Certificate level III across hospitality, not just in clubs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5028

You presently are doing a Certificate IV in Hospitality?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5029

I think you say you - what are the courses you're presently undertaking in Certificate IV in Hospitality?‑‑‑That is just the one - - -

PN5030

Sorry, aren't there subjects like - what topics are you undertaking within that course?‑‑‑Okay. I've got about 21 different subjects in the course. It varies. It's hospitality operations, rostering, providing a quality customer service, producing business documents. It's a lot of different topics in there.

PN5031

Again it's your understanding is it that a Certificate IV in Hospitality is a qualification that applies in the hospitality industry generally and is not confined to clubs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5032

Is that course being conducted within your club or by outside providers?‑‑‑It's by outside providers.

PN5033

That external provider, do you do this only online or do you actually physically attend courses?‑‑‑I do it online.

PN5034

Does your club have childcare facilities?‑‑‑Not in the club. We do provide a little crèche for those that want to go to the gym and to classes there.

PN5035

Who attends to the crèche? Sorry, are there staff engaged looking after the crèche?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5036

How many?‑‑‑Probably five or six different ones, different girls there.

*** MAGDALENA MARIA GORMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN5037

But only one on duty at a time or more than one?‑‑‑It could be more than one because they do get a lot of children in there.

PN5038

Can we take it that the busiest time at your club would be a Saturday and a Sunday?‑‑‑Probably more Friday nights, Saturday nights and Sundays.

PN5039

If your Honour just bears with me. That's the cross-examination if the Commission please.

PN5040

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination?

PN5041

MS BURKE: No, thank you, your Honour. If the witness could be excused.

PN5042

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Right, thank you for your evidence Ms Gorman. You're excused and you're free to go?‑‑‑Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.27 PM]

PN5043

Mr Dowling?

PN5044

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour. We call Mr Peter Cooper.

PN5045

THE ASSOCIATE: Can you please state your full name and your address?

PN5046

MR COOPER: Peter Brian Cooper, (address supplied).

<PETER BRIAN COOPER, SWORN [12.28 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DOWLING [12.28 PM]

PN5047

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN5048

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour. Mr Cooper, could you please repeat your full name for the transcript?‑‑‑Peter Brian Cooper.

PN5049

Your address?‑‑‑(Address supplied)

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XN MR DOWLING

PN5050

Your occupation?‑‑‑Industrial advocate for the Club Managers Association.

PN5051

Thank you. You have prepared a statement for the purposes of this proceeding?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN5052

You have a folder in front of you just to your left. If you open that folder and look behind the tab numbered number 1, I hope you will see there a statement headed statement of Peter Cooper. Is that what you see?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN5053

Is that a statement of nine pages and 40 paragraphs?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5054

Signed by you and dated 7 May 2018?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5055

It has together with it six appendices?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5056

Your Honour, there are a number of objections to the statement which I think we can deal with quite quickly.

PN5057

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN5058

MR DOWLING: Those objected to are paragraphs 21, 38, 39 and 40 are acknowledged it seems to me by the applicant that given earlier rulings and assuming consistency they would be omitted. That only leaves paragraph 27.

PN5059

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Just let me look at those.

PN5060

MR DOWLING: Certainly.

PN5061

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, paragraphs 38, 39 and 40 will be omitted.

PN5062

MR DOWLING: And 21, I think the last sentence of 21 falls into that category, your Honour.

PN5063

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Do you want to say anything about that, Mr Dixon?

PN5064

MR DIXON: That is - - -

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XN MR DOWLING

PN5065

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The last sentence of paragraph 21.

PN5066

MR DIXON: It's simply an assertion and opinion, it doesn't add any value to the Commission's determination of this matter.

PN5067

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That sentence will be omitted.

PN5068

MR DOWLING: That only leaves as the remaining objection paragraph 27 which we do not read, which we accept should not be included.

PN5069

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Just for clarity does that mean that the first sentence in 28 should also go?

PN5070

MR DOWLING: Yes, I think that must follow, thank you, your Honour.

PN5071

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Right, if there's no further objections the statement of Peter Cooper dated 7 May 2018 will be marked exhibit 39.

EXHIBIT #39 WITNESS STATEMENT OF PETER BRIAN COOPER DATED 07/05/2018

PN5072

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour. Now I think my fault but I have not asked Mr Cooper subject to the corrections or deletions, the context of your statement are true and correct?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN5073

Just one matter with leave, your Honour, and I've raised this with my learned friend Mr Gotting. Unfortunately Mr Dixon was on his feet at the time. Can I ask you, you attach at the first document I think after the end of your statement is the further submissions to the Australian Industrial Relations Commission by Clubs Australia. Is that what - - -?‑‑‑Is that at a certain tab, sorry? Yes, I have it, tab - - -

PN5074

It's marked in the top left-hand corner appendix 3?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5075

It's headed there, "Further submissions to the Australian Industrial Relations Commission by Clubs Australia". Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XN MR DOWLING

PN5076

Can I just show you a document please, it's related to that document and that's why I want to do so. I apologise, your Honour, I'm a copy short but I think what I'm going to do means the copy that the witness has can come to one of the members of the Bench.

PN5077

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Right.

PN5078

MR DOWLING: Now you see appendix 3 is marked, "Further submissions of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission" - sorry - "to the Australian Industrial Relations Commission by Clubs Australia", and the document you've been handed is the submissions by Clubs Australia. Do you recognise that document as a submission that was also made by Clubs Australia during the modern award process doing the best you can recollecting that far back?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, I do. The position was stated and re-stated from Clubs Australia Industrial at the time.

PN5079

That's the submission that pre-dates the further submission that is appendix 3 to your statement, correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5080

I tender that statement or that document, your Honour.

PN5081

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The document titled "Submissions to the Australian Industrial Relations Commission by Clubs Australia re modern award modernisation process" will be marked exhibit 40.

EXHIBIT #40 SUBMISSIONS TO THE AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS COMMISSION BY CLUBS AUSTRALIA RE MODERN AWARD MODERNISATION PROCESS

PN5082

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour, that's the evidence in-chief of Mr Cooper. Just stay there, Mr Cooper.

PN5083

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON [12.34 PM]

PN5084

MR DIXON: Mr Cooper, you had some involvement did you not during the award modernisation process in the proceedings in the Commission?‑‑‑Sorry?

PN5085

Did you have any involvement in the award modernisation process that was conducted by the Commission in 2008, 9 and 10?‑‑‑Yes, I did.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XXN MR DIXON

PN5086

You know from your involvement in the industry and also in those proceedings that there was at that time a career structure in the clubs industry for clubs managers?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5087

That structure had a number of manager grades under which prior to the making of the modern award managers were being paid?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5088

There were seven grades?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5089

Traditionally described as grade A to grade G?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5090

Those grades and structure had a number of different pay rates corresponding to the particular grades?‑‑‑Yes, they did.

PN5091

In your experience that structure, graded structure is not readily found in other industries covering – sorry, in other industries you are not aware of award provisions for managers?‑‑‑It is very unique.

PN5092

And in other industry you are not aware of award provisions for senior managers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5093

In other industries you are not aware of any comprehensive grading for managers?‑‑‑No.

PN5094

It is your evidence, is it not, that in your view those graded and specific levels constitute a career structure for clubs managers?‑‑‑Yes. The rates and the classification can be distinctly different in remuneration levels.

PN5095

Now, you have been – I just wanted to clarify one thing – you've been present in the proceedings throughout all the earlier evidence given in this matter?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5096

And also during the cross-examination of all the witnesses?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5097

In your involvement in the award modernisation process you had a concern over the potential absorption of the clubs industry into the hospitality award?‑‑‑Yes.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XXN MR DIXON

PN5098

Your concern reflected a desire to maintain a career structure in the clubs industry?‑‑‑That was one of our concerns.

PN5099

Just stick with that career structure for the moment. Your concern in relation to managers reflected a desire to maintain the career structure in the clubs industry?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5100

That was your overriding concern?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5101

Your concern reflected a desire to maintain what you regarded as a career path for club managers?‑‑‑Not only club managers.

PN5102

But to maintain in particular the grades A to grade G that had been in existence prior to that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5103

Your concern also reflected a desire, as you may now have suggested, to see that employees could identify those grades and think that non-managers had a career path into the managerial - - -?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN5104

That as I understand your evidence, and correct me if am wrong, Mr Cooper, it remains your overriding concern?‑‑‑It's the primary concern, yes, but there are a number of others.

PN5105

Eventually as a result of the award modernisation process an award was made and it retained that career structure that uncommonly provided for grades for club managers?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5106

And which in effect contained the career path to senior levels right up to the most senior level within a club classification structure?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5107

I will deal with this perhaps because I think you may well know the answer to this. Are you familiar with the present structure in the clubs award dealing with managers from level 6 upwards?‑‑‑Yes, I am.

PN5108

Some award benefits are not provided to managers if they are paid a certain level of salary?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XXN MR DIXON

PN5109

Without going to the particular provisions in broad terms what is your understanding of those provisions?‑‑‑There's two exemption levels in 17(3)(a)(i) and (a)(ii). One provides for the lower exemption 20 per cent, is essentially an overtime all-inclusive salary, and the 50 per cent lists a number of other areas of the award, other allowances that are bought out if you like, but the rates and the classification are minimum rates and those exemption levels, which I think you've misunderstood – sorry, that you need to pay in excess of 20 per cent with certain provisions, and in excess of 50 per cent with other provisions.

PN5110

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So which level applies to buy out weekend penalty rates?‑‑‑The lower exemption it buys out – does not buy out working on weekends – public holidays, sorry. That's a unique section, the 20 per cent exemption. The 50 per cent certainly does buy out penalty rates and other hour provisions.

PN5111

So the lower one buys out public holidays?‑‑‑No, it doesn't, it buys out - - -

PN5112

It does not buy out public holidays. Does it buy out Saturdays and Sundays?‑‑‑The club managers have never recognised the weekend distinctly. We look at seven days a week, and the only thing that really stood out was public holidays as such, because duty managers can be rostered any day of the week. We've never dissected Saturdays or Sundays. So that's not an issue.

PN5113

Does that mean that you don't need to pay any of the exemption rates to buy out penalties?‑‑‑You've got to pay out the 20 per cent for the penalty, general penalty rates, all but the public holiday provisions.

PN5114

Thank you.

PN5115

MR DIXON: You are aware, are you, Mr Cooper, that Clubs Australia Industrial has proposed a merged clubs award with the hospitality award?‑‑‑Yes, I am.

PN5116

And you have had reference to the document that has been provided to the Commission?‑‑‑The latest version, 15 June, is the one you're referring to?

PN5117

Yes?‑‑‑Yes, I've been through that document.

PN5118

Clearly when you made your statement in these proceedings am I correct that you had not seen the latest version?‑‑‑I'd seen the previous versions.

PN5119

Therefore you had not seen the 15 June version?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XXN MR DIXON

PN5120

You have reviewed that document?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN5121

The 15 June document?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN5122

And you have observed that it seeks to preserve the same career structure that is presently contained in the modern clubs award?‑‑‑That's correct, as did the other drafts.

PN5123

Just so that I understand your understanding, is it your understanding that the proposed structure describes managers in the same way?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5124

As managers less than 500,000 provision in the same way as in the clubs award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5125

As manager level A to manager level G in the same way?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5126

Pay rates for level 6?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5127

Level 7 all the way up to 13, all identical to what is presently in the clubs award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5128

Looking at that document there is absolutely no confusion at all as to the fact that the terms are the same?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5129

The same language?‑‑‑Yes, exactly, yes.

PN5130

The same interpretation, the same ease of understanding. Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5131

The same simplicity?‑‑‑I wouldn't say simplicity.

PN5132

There is nothing complex in the clubs award, is there?‑‑‑When you look at managers, yes, because you look at that clause 17 with the rates, but you have to look at C11 of the award that spells out the different levels of management, what they mean, what levels of training is a requirement and competency standards for levels 7 through to 13.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XXN MR DIXON

PN5133

Precisely the same provisions are in the proposed document as you understand?‑‑‑Yes, but you posed to me that it was going to be simplistic and I take a different view.

PN5134

You took issue with that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5135

I see. So that your understanding is that the primary concern that you had in the making of the modern award would be taken care of if in a merged award this Commission decides to retain the classification structure in the hospitality award that presently exists in the clubs award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5136

Your organisation publishes a magazine?‑‑‑We had published it, but it's now online.

PN5137

You now publish it online?‑‑‑Well, it's more of an e-newsletter.

PN5138

Who prepares that document?‑‑‑We had a person in-house that collates items of interest with an external provider.

PN5139

Do you overview the contents?‑‑‑We prepare from time to time industrial matters to go into that e-newsletter.

PN5140

And so any industrial matter of any consequence you would have input into that newsletter?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5141

So that it could reach as many of members of CMAA as possible?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5142

Is it published on a weekly, monthly basis?‑‑‑It's fortnightly, but we have the capacity to communicate industrial matters as on a needs basis.

PN5143

So that if a decision is handed down of significance tomorrow Monday you might let all members know if it's an industrial matter with input from you and others in the organisation to tell members what has occurred?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5144

And if there is any change in terms and conditions that is one means that you use to inform your members of changes in industrial matters?‑‑‑Yes.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XXN MR DIXON

PN5145

In the event that the Commission were to make changes to the clubs award out of these proceedings you would ensure, I suggest to you, Mr Cooper, that all your members are informed as soon as you can of any amendments that affect them?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5146

You are obviously as an experienced industrial advocate familiar with the various aids that are available from the Fair Work Ombudsman, the Fair Work Commission to terms and conditions, pay rates, and you can access those details on the line?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5147

And you heard the evidence earlier given in these proceedings, you have had access to those forms of information both from the Fair Work Ombudsman?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5148

And you would expect, would you, that if in the event that there were changes made in these proceedings you would tell your members in a newsletter or otherwise about those facilities available to inform them about any changes in rates?‑‑‑We view ourselves as the first source for that material, and we think our material advising members of their compliance obligations, we provide enough information. We don't necessarily refer them to another link if you like.

PN5149

By that can the Commission take it that your organisation regards itself as fully equipped to ensure that your members understand any changes that are made?‑‑‑I didn't say that. No. No.

PN5150

I am suggesting to you that that follows from what you have just said, the first line of information?‑‑‑We're informing our membership of any latest developments, and we try to be factual in conveying that to our members.

PN5151

So that they fully understand the full nature of any changes made to the clubs award?‑‑‑That's our objective, yes.

PN5152

That is your first line – you regard yourself for your members your organisation is the most important source of that information?‑‑‑We – we inform members like other trade unions would inform their membership.

PN5153

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Will you be a while longer, Mr Dixon?

PN5154

MR DIXON: Yes, if your Honour pleases.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XXN MR DIXON

PN5155

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We will adjourn now for lunch and resume at 2 pm.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.50 PM]

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.50 PM]

RESUMED [2.02 PM]

<PETER BRIAN COOPER, RECALLED [2.02 PM]

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON, CONTINUING [2.02 PM]

PN5156

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon.

PN5157

MS DIXON: May it please the Commission.

PN5158

Mr Cooper, can you tell the Commission the criteria for membership of CMMA? What do you have to be or how do you qualify to be a member of your organisation?‑‑‑Well, it starts with the award actually. In the award, there's an obligation for each - - -

PN5159

No, sorry, just under your constitution?‑‑‑Being a club manager. You can also be a hotel manager or a motel manager. So we have a broad coverage in our constitution.

PN5160

So if you're a club manager, does it also have associated membership or you've got to have a managerial position, either in a club, motel, hotel, or is there another one?‑‑‑I think there's hostel managers, but it's an old constitution that - since - - -

PN5161

I understand. I'm not being critical?‑‑‑No, no, no, I'm just trying to recall. It's not something I go to. Primarily, our focus, we purposely made the decision in the 80s to focus on club managers. It was previously called the Secretary Managers Association prior to about 1985, I believe.

PN5162

You have represented hotel managers under a Hotel Managers Award in the earlier days before the modernisation process took place?‑‑‑That award was displaced by now President Ross when there was - it wasn't called - - -

PN5163

My question is, you had an award prior to the modernisation award that was called the CMMA's Hotel Managers Award?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XXN MR DIXON

PN5164

Do you still have hotel managers within your membership?‑‑‑I'm not sure, to be honest with you.

PN5165

But you are by reason of your history fully familiar with the Hospitality Award?‑‑‑I am.

PN5166

You are fully aware of the managerial positions and descriptions within the Hospitality Award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5167

You are fully capable of explaining to any hospitality managers who are your members any issues in relation to the award coverage that they may have either under the Hospitality Award or a merged award?‑‑‑No.

PN5168

If you have members, are you suggesting that you will not be able to look after them adequately?‑‑‑In the past, I have been aware of some hotel managers coming into the club industry, particularly in Victoria where they're venue managers. They make no distinction as such. But I haven't represented in all the years I've been with the association a hotel manager. So my knowledge of how the award applies at hotel establishments is very limited, so that's why I hesitate that I don't think I'd be overly competent to be fully versed on their industry to give them proper industrial advice and I have never had to interpret the award or give advice under the hotel managers component of the Hospitality Award.

PN5169

You obviously did under the Hotel Managers Award pre modernisation?‑‑‑No.

PN5170

But you're an experienced industrial representative, aren't you, Mr Cooper?‑‑‑What I was trying to explain - yes, I am, yes.

PN5171

Just answer the question?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5172

In that capacity, you regularly have access to awards of this Commission, modern awards?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5173

You have no difficulty in interpreting those awards?‑‑‑Generally, no.

PN5174

If you were unable to answer a question from a hotel manager or a member, you have facilities available to you and reference points to research the matter and advise?‑‑‑Yes, we're well equipped.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XXN MR DIXON

PN5175

You're not the only person in your organisation dealing with industrial matters or am I wrong?‑‑‑No, I have a colleague that - - -

PN5176

When your website talks about club member services is award interpretation, that's a service that you and your colleague provide?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5177

When your website refers to providing member services on industrial relations support and guidance, that's a service that you provide?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5178

That includes any matters involving decisions by the Commission, the Fair Work Commission?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5179

If the Commission made a merged award out of these proceedings, those services would be utilised to ensure that all members of your association are fully acquainted of the changes that are made?‑‑‑We would focus on club managers, not hotel managers.

PN5180

You would just ignore your hotel managers if you have hotel managers, would you?‑‑‑We don't post anything to do with the hotel coverage that we currently have on our website, our industrial services. We put out circulars to our members on updates, club managers. We don't update hotel managers on the recent minimum wage case increase, for example.

PN5181

You mentioned to the Commission that at the time of the making of the modern award, your primary concern was the retention of the career structure for club managers. You recall that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5182

You also said, as I understood your evidence, at the time of making the modern award, you had other concerns?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5183

I take it those were for managers?‑‑‑No.

PN5184

You only represented managers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5185

So what were your concerns for managers, other concerns for managers?‑‑‑For managers, just to ensure that all the unique items covering managers under the current Clubs Award are quarantined and protected in any new instrument.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XXN MR DIXON

PN5186

What do you regard as, apart from classifications, are the 'unique' aspects for managers?‑‑‑There's additional rosters for those managers on the lower exemption. There's a uniform allowance that's unique to managers. There's the five weeks annual leave for managers. There's probably about two or three others.

PN5187

All of those are presently catered for in the application that is being pressed by Clubs Australia Industrial, are they not?‑‑‑In the 15 June document?

PN5188

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5189

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Cooper, the five weeks annual leave, is that in the annual leave clause of the current award?‑‑‑When we did the modernised award, we had to change the wording. There's a comma. It says - when it gives the definition of a shift worker receiving five weeks annual leave, the very last sentence says, comma, "And includes a club manager." Now - - -

PN5190

So where do I find that?‑‑‑Clause 26.

PN5191

26?‑‑‑I'm guessing.

PN5192

COMMISSIONER BISSETT: That's the shift worker clause, is it?‑‑‑Yes. If I could add that we haven't had a problem with it thus far, but to anticipate there may be problems in the future, we were hoping with the award modernisation process, the consultation process, that we could clarify it.

PN5193

COMMISSIONER HAMPTON: It's in the definitions.

PN5194

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Right.

PN5195

MR DOWLING: I think it also appears in clause 30.1(b), if that's of any assistance?‑‑‑Okay.

PN5196

MR DIXON: Thank you. Your Honour, at page 40.

PN5197

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I see.

PN5198

Now, Mr Cooper, you accept, do you not, that clubs market and promote their venues to members and guests?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XXN MR DIXON

PN5199

They use general advertising materials for that purpose?‑‑‑As well as the latest technology available through social media, yes.

PN5200

Facebook and others?‑‑‑All that, yes.

PN5201

You accept that clubs do so to compete against other hospitality outlets?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5202

Such as pubs, hotels and function facilities?‑‑‑Well, I'd say primarily to advise their members of what they're providing by way of services.

PN5203

But to compete against other hospitality outlets, that's the evidence you give, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN5204

Pubs, to your knowledge, also advertise to attract custom by various means, including social media?‑‑‑I believe so, but I have no first-hand knowledge of that.

PN5205

But you are aware that pubs and hotels regularly advertise for custom in one form or another?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5206

You do make reference in your statement about a number of clubs and I don't want to detain the Commission too long on this and I'll try and shorten the questions because you have been present in the proceedings and you've heard the evidence that others have given about functions and services provided by various clubs. So can you, perhaps, with that in mind and in a succinct way state the type of services that are, to your knowledge, provided by Panthers that you refer to in paragraph 32 in relation to food offerings, multiple outlets, would that be correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5207

Bars, multiple bars?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5208

A function centre?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5209

What else?‑‑‑I live out that way, so not only do I have a professional - - -

PN5210

No, sorry?‑‑‑My personal knowledge of Panthers, they provide a family friendly environment in - I think I mentioned that - - -

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XXN MR DIXON

PN5211

Mr Cooper?‑‑‑Aqua Golf. That was one of the areas that I mentioned.

PN5212

What about Great Keppel Bay Sailing Club, just in those categories, food offerings?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5213

What, bistro?‑‑‑Yes, they focus primarily on food.

PN5214

So the food offerings are through what form? The bistro, café?‑‑‑They have one grand area, like a restaurant/bistro, I would best describe it as. It's not your typical bistro area.

PN5215

It has a bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5216

Or more than one bar?‑‑‑It has one bar.

PN5217

Capricornio Club at Yeppoon in Far North Queensland, food offerings?‑‑‑Capricornio, that's one and the same. I don't remember looking at Capricornio.

PN5218

Can I draw your attention to paragraph 32 of your statement?‑‑‑Okay.

PN5219

Tell us if you are not familiar with it. Top of page 8?‑‑‑That's one and the same club, sorry.

PN5220

I see?‑‑‑The Great Keppel Bay, it's at Capricornio at Yeppoon, that's the one club, yes.

PN5221

The Mooloolaba Surf Club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5222

Food servicing?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5223

Restaurants?‑‑‑No, again, that club has one general food area.

PN5224

A bistro type restaurant?‑‑‑Restaurant.

PN5225

Bars?‑‑‑Yes.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XXN MR DIXON

PN5226

That's at Coolangatta?‑‑‑No, Mooloolaba and Coolangatta.

PN5227

So there are two clubs at Coolangatta as well?‑‑‑There are two, two separate surf clubs.

PN5228

Similar services?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5229

Thank you. In each of those venues, I take it, would you know that there are close by other hospitality outlets, pubs, hotels and the like?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5230

Offering similar services or also offering food services and pub services?‑‑‑The evidence I gave was the uniqueness of those particular clubs in regards to their location. I can't comment about the hotels up the street or anything like that.

PN5231

Do you know whether there are pubs up the street or not?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN5232

There are?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5233

And you know what their services are. Food services?‑‑‑No, I don't.

PN5234

There are pubs up the - - -?‑‑‑I am familiar with Yeppoon, Rockhampton and Mooloolaba and Coolangatta.

PN5235

Thank you?‑‑‑I know there are hotels in those areas.

PN5236

Do you know, Mr David Hiscox?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN5237

Is he the federal president of CMAA?‑‑‑Yes, he is.

PN5238

He has held that position since when? 2015 or thereabouts?‑‑‑Yes, that sounds about right, yes.

PN5239

Is he a member of the board of CMAA?‑‑‑He's a federal executive member as well, yes.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XXN MR DIXON

PN5240

Explain what that is?‑‑‑Well, it's a trade union, we don't have boards. We have elected federal executive members from our rank and file. We have a one-tier collegian system where they elected the federal secretary and the federal president.

PN5241

Your Honour, just allow me a moment, please. That is the cross-examination.

PN5242

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Cooper, I take it from what you said during cross-examination that you wouldn't really be in a position to compare the work of a club manager to a hotel manager?‑‑‑No, that's correct.

PN5243

You were present during the evidence of Mr Mossman?‑‑‑Yes, I was.

PN5244

If I understood it correctly, he indicated that there had been some discussions between Clubs Australia Industrial and your organisation immediately prior to filing the application in this matter?‑‑‑Very limited discussions, yes.

PN5245

What were the nature of those discussions?‑‑‑We were trying to involve - engage ourselves in some dialogue in regards to what their application may do and we stressed the point that we'd always had a very good working relationship with Clubs Australia Industrial and ClubsNSW, so we were hoping to have a formal sit down meeting to identify what the matters of concern were primarily with Clubs Australia Industrial because we really did not understand what their concerns were.

PN5246

Did those meetings results in any understanding or outcome or agreement?‑‑‑No. Several phone calls were made by the heads of the two organisations to try to broker that. I personally tried to broker a holding of hands exercise at a coffee shop at Surrey Hills between United Voice National and Chris Mossman representing Clubs Australia Industrial for the same purpose. We seemed to be stuck in the middle of a wider picture debate and that seemed to have worked reasonably well, but I think it hit a brick wall and nothing further eventuated, so there was no serious discussions in the formation of a draft award or anything of that nature prior to their application. We had experienced that in the past and we were very disappointed as an organisation that we weren't a stakeholder, if you like. We were not consulted or any serious discussions took place prior to them lodging.

PN5247

Thank you.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XXN MR DIXON

PN5248

COMMISSIONER HAMPTON: Mr Cooper, in your statement at paragraph 3, you identify three pre-modern awards. I understand that these were awards that applied to your members?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5249

Just refresh my memory, in relation to (b), the Liquor and Accommodation Industry - Licensed Clubs - Managers and Secretaries Award 2002, did that apply to respondents outside of Queensland and Victoria?‑‑‑No, it didn't.

PN5250

So was there any pre-modern award that applied to the other states for managers?‑‑‑There was. I was leading to the fact that - I forget what the title of the Commission is - but they were culling old awards and Ross P was involved in that exercise. We - not got rid of, but obsolete awards were dealt with during that process and the Western Australian Club Managers Award is really peculiar because you had federal awards that operated within state boundaries. There was a Western Australian Club Managers Award and there was a South Australian Club Managers Award, so they were dealt with that process, and I think that was in the 90s, mid to late 90s, and the Commission killed those awards off. At the same time, the Hotel Managers Award, we were seeking to delete that award too, but we were unsuccessful, that survived.

PN5251

Thank you very much.

PN5252

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Anything arising out of that, Mr Dixon?

PN5253

MR DIXON: Mr Cooper, you mentioned Surrey Hills and you went along as a representative of your organisation together with CAI, did you not, to try and discuss the matters that were proposed in relation to option 1 and option 2 following the penalty rates decision and to see whether an agreed position could be reached with United Voice?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5254

You participated in those - - -

PN5255

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Did you finish that answer, Mr Cooper?‑‑‑The purpose of the meeting was that there was - they were yards apart. We purely wanted to understand - Clubs Australia to clearly identify what was a concern for them in considering what type of application they were likely to make. This was very early in the piece and it was - I actually set up the meeting.

PN5256

MR DIXON: You also mentioned that there were conversations between the heads of your organisation and Clubs Australia Industrial?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XXN MR DIXON

PN5257

You were not party to those conversations?‑‑‑I was briefed on them.

PN5258

You don't have knowledge of every one of those conversations that might have taken place because you weren't part of them, do you?‑‑‑No, but I was informed on every discussion.

PN5259

How do you know that, Mr Cooper?‑‑‑Because David Hiscox, our federal president, dialogued directly with Peter Newell, the president of Clubs Australia Industrial, and on each occasion they dialogued, I was informed of the nature of their discussions.

PN5260

There were a range of conversations that you were informed about, were you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5261

If the Commission pleases.

PN5262

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dowling?

PN5263

MR DIXON: If you would just bear with me one moment?

PN5264

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I'm sorry.

PN5265

MR DIXON: I'm sorry. Following the application made by CAI, there was a prospect of conciliation between the parties; do you recall that?‑‑‑Limited, I'd say.

PN5266

There was an opportunity for conciliation afforded everyone with an interest, including your organisation?‑‑‑No, I don't believe so.

PN5267

Is it not the case that your organisation refused participation in conciliation once the CAI application was lodged?‑‑‑No. That application was lodged in July of last year.

PN5268

Yes?‑‑‑The first we were aware of it was when it appeared on the Fair Work's website.

PN5269

Were there any conciliation proceedings that you were aware of after that?‑‑‑No.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER XXN MR DIXON

PN5270

If the Commission please.

PN5271

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dowling?

PN5272

MR DIXON: I am sorry, I am obviously taking instructions on the run. May I just clarify the position? If the Commission pleases.

PN5273

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dowling?

PN5274

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DOWLING [2.26 PM]

PN5275

MR DOWLING: Just to clarify the questions you were asked at the end about meetings particularly between CAI and CMAA, I think your evidence was you were hoping to have a meeting and your evidence was also you were very disappointed you were not consulted. Can you just clarify the Commission, was there a meeting?‑‑‑No. The disappointment, if I could address that, when we received that first draft of an amalgamated award, that's when it was lodged in the Commission. We were promised that prior to lodging anything, the CMA would be given a copy to make comment on. We were not given that opportunity.

PN5276

Thank you. Just going back to the other end of your evidence, at the start, you were asked some questions about maintaining the structure for club managers and whether that was important for club managers and you said in answer, "Not only for club managers." Can you just explain what you meant by that?‑‑‑Our managers are deeply committed to the industry and they take a holistic approach. They do a fair bit of mentoring. They identify talented staff they want to keep within their organisation. It's easy to say, "We're okay, we're looking after our own structure and training and development", but as general managers and also members of a trade union, they take the view that they would like to develop younger people coming into the industry to provide them the opportunity to progress up in a career path as they had done.

PN5277

You were asked some questions about whether that was your primary concern and your answer was, "Primary concern, but there were a number of others." I think Mr Dixon returned to that in respect of club managers, but I took it that your answer was it was a primary concern but there were a number of others.

PN5278

MR DIXON: No, my learned friend can't suggest the way he took the evidence.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER RXN MR DOWLING

PN5279

MR DOWLING: When you gave the answer you had a primary concern but there were a number of others, could you explain to the Commission what you meant?‑‑‑My concern was our managers having to interpret the award and also boards of directors trying to interpret the award, not just simply identifying those schedules for club managers but the confusion that may develop between different management classifications within that award. I think the majority of clubs are small to medium-sized clubs and they may not be equipped with great HR or payroll people, so it's left to either the honorary treasurer of a club or a very busy standalone manager to adhere to the compliance within their club. My other concerns went to looking at a very encompassing award covering a number of classifications and working your way through it so you do comply and you are not subject to a breach of the award.

PN5280

I understand, thank you. Mr Dixon asked you some questions about the annual salary provisions, if I can call them that, and in answer to one of his questions, you referred to the provisions that you said Mr Dixon had misunderstood. What did you mean by that?‑‑‑I was alluding to the fact that the way the award works, in the classification section at C11, there's an obligation for each licensed club around Australia to establish management classification structures relative to their own establishment, so you can't compare the Windang Bowling Club with Penrith Panthers, for example, so that board of directors has to look at its management structure and attach classification levels for it, number one. So that's the compliance.

PN5281

When you go back to clause 17, the salaries, you may say that manager is level E, but the minimum salaries under the 17 clause may not be that relevant because they may have to pay market values and pay in excess of those. So, they make the determination for the level E, for example, "Will we apply the 20 per cent exemption or will we apply the 50 per cent?"

PN5282

MR DOWLING: Yes?‑‑‑With the 50 per cent, it can really mean - or the lower one - you can pay $1 above it, or the 50 per cent, you pay $100,000 above it. You are complying with the award because you have classified your manager at your club, or managers, and then you've applied market considerations to attract the skilled managers to run your club for you.

*** PETER BRIAN COOPER RXN MR DOWLING

PN5283

I see, thank you. You were also asked some questions about your history in representing hotel managers. This might be difficult for you to recall, but you were cut off from one of your answers in response to those questions about representing hotel managers where you said, "What I was trying to explain was." Do you recall giving that answer and can you, if you can, describe what it is you were trying to explain?‑‑‑Well, our federal executive, at a point in time, made that conscious decision not to pursue membership opportunities in our general coverage of the constitution and they changed their name to focus purely on clubs. During the opportunity before the Commission to get rid of obsolete awards, the AHA fought vehemently at getting rid of the hotel managers award, but our executive made a decision not to continue with that award coverage, although we had constitutional coverage, but, in practical terms, we had not gone out and tried to recruit hotel managers. The example I was trying to give is, particularly in Victoria, you sometimes have a venue manager. That's the term they use in the legislation down there; they don't have a separate Clubs Act down in Victoria. A venue manager can work at a pub or a club. We sometimes see that hotel managers come across to the club industry. I can't recall ever seeing a club manager going the other way.

PN5284

Thank you, Mr Cooper, no further questions. If Mr Cooper might be excused?

PN5285

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN5286

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

PN5287

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you for your evidence, Mr Cooper, you are excused and can return to the Bar table.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.33 PM]

PN5288

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Does that leave Ms Crowe for today, does it?

PN5289

MR DOWLING: It does, your Honour. She is outside and Ms Burke is just getting her now.

PN5290

THE ASSOCIATE: Can you please state your full name and your address?

PN5291

MS CROWE: Yes, my full name is Vicki Crowe, (address supplied).

<VICKI CROWE, AFFIRMED [2.35 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DOWLING [2.35 PM]

PN5292

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, Mr Dowling?

PN5293

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour.

PN5294

Ms Crowe, could you please repeat your full name again?‑‑‑Yes, Vicki Crowe.

*** VICKI CROWE XN MR DOWLING

PN5295

Your address?‑‑‑(Address supplied)

PN5296

And your occupation, please?‑‑‑National HR manager for the PGA of Australia.

PN5297

You have prepared a statement for the purposes of this proceeding?‑‑‑I have.

PN5298

There is a folder just to your left there. If you go to tab 2 in that folder, you should have there a statement headed "Statement of Vicki Crowe". Is that what you see?‑‑‑I do.

PN5299

Is that a statement of seven pages and 42 paragraphs?‑‑‑It is.

PN5300

Signed by you and dated 11 May 2018?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5301

There is one annexure, the AusPlay - participation data for the sports sector document?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5302

There are a number of objections to that statement, your Honour.

PN5303

MR GOTTING: Your Honour, the objections are on the basis of relevance. I know there is often not an enthusiasm towards dealing with objections of that kind. Can I just - - -

PN5304

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: They are not in the objections document?

PN5305

MR GOTTING: Sorry, I have got a document. It's probably easiest if I just - I was trying to stop more paper.

PN5306

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN5307

MR GOTTING: The objections are really from paragraphs 22 to 28 on the grounds of relevance and also paragraph 30 on the grounds of relevance. I was going to raise some other objections, but in light of the earlier rulings that have been made by the Commission, I won't press them because I know the outcome.

PN5308

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, those paragraphs will be admitted.

*** VICKI CROWE XN MR DOWLING

PN5309

MR GOTTING: Thank you.

PN5310

MR DOWLING: Ms Crowe, are the contents of that statement true and correct?‑‑‑They are true and correct.

PN5311

I tender that, your Honour.

PN5312

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, the statement of Vicki Crowe dated 11 May 2018 will be marked exhibit 41.

EXHIBIT #41 WITNESS STATEMENT OF VICKI CROWE DATED 11/05/2018

PN5313

MR DOWLING: That is the evidence of Ms Crowe.

PN5314

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Gotting?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GOTTING [2.37 PM]

PN5315

MR GOTTING: Your Honour, I understand Mr Kirkman is in - sorry, I will take that back.

PN5316

Ms Crowe, my name is Gotting and I appear for Clubs Australia. Ms Crowe, the Professional Golfers Association is not a registered club?‑‑‑It's not a registered club, no.

PN5317

You agree with me?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN5318

It is not a licensed club?‑‑‑No, it's not.

PN5319

It doesn't hold a liquor licence?‑‑‑No, it doesn't.

PN5320

And it doesn't operate gaming machines?‑‑‑No, it doesn't.

PN5321

Your evidence does not relate to greenkeepers?‑‑‑No, it doesn't.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5322

And your evidence does not relate to maintenance staff of golf clubs?‑‑‑No, it doesn't.

PN5323

Your evidence only relates to golf professionals?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5324

Some golf professionals working at golf clubs are contractors rather than employees?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5325

Some golf professionals working at a golf clubs are employees of another golf professional that is working at the golf club?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5326

Are you able to indicate to the Commission the number of golf professionals who are working at a golf club that are contractors?

PN5327

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, just pause there, do you mean members of the organisation or just generally?

PN5328

MR GOTTING: I meant generally, but I am happy to do it in two stages.

PN5329

THE WITNESS: The number of contracted professionals?

PN5330

MR GOTTING: Correct?‑‑‑The split I'm not quite sure of, I don't know exactly.

PN5331

Are you able to give, based on your experience, an estimate as to the split?‑‑‑There would be more employed than there would be contracted.

PN5332

Are we talking 60 per cent employed, 40 per cent contractor, or what sort of split?‑‑‑I don't have that data, I'm sorry.

PN5333

In terms of the golf professionals that are working at a golf club who are employed by another golf professional, are you able to indicate the number of persons in that position?‑‑‑So we're talking about employees under the amusements award not the licensed clubs award?

PN5334

That is so?‑‑‑Correct, yes. Sorry, your question was?

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5335

What would be the proportion of golf professionals who are covered by the amusement award?‑‑‑I think the proportion is about 45 per cent under the amusements award and 55 per cent under the registered clubs award.

PN5336

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Just to be clear, in what circumstances would a professional golfer be employed under the amusement award?‑‑‑They would be employed by a contracted pro in a golf club.

PN5337

Is that the only circumstance?‑‑‑It would be the most likely circumstance, yes, the most likely.

PN5338

Do professionals work for council-operated golf courses?‑‑‑Yes, they do and then they'd come under the local council award.

PN5339

Right?‑‑‑Yes, there's a couple of other awards that golf professionals come under, like the driving range, it's like the fitness award, but they are very minimal; the majority of our members are under the amusements or the registered and licensed clubs.

PN5340

There are some hotels that operate golf courses?‑‑‑There's resorts, yes.

PN5341

They would be what?‑‑‑They would probably come under the hospitality, I would imagine, or resorts award.

PN5342

Thank you.

PN5343

MR GOTTING: You are aware from your position, Ms Crowe, that some golf clubs do not employ any employees?‑‑‑Yes, of course, they are volunteer-based.

PN5344

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5345

Some golf clubs operate solely by using contractors?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5346

You give some evidence that 35 per cent of golf clubs are in regional areas. Is there a greater likelihood of a club being a volunteer-run club in a regional area?‑‑‑Yes, there is.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5347

You give some evidence in your statement on the golf industry employing 20,000 people or thereabouts?‑‑‑23,000, yes.

PN5348

Does the golf industry include employees that are employed in or work in a golf retail store?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5349

Does the golf industry include employees working at a driving range?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5350

Does the golf industry include employees that are working at a council golf course?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5351

Does the golf industry include employees that are organising professional golfing tournaments?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5352

Does the golf industry include employees that are actually working at the professional golfing tournament?‑‑‑A golfing tournament?

PN5353

Yes?‑‑‑Other than a golf professional?

PN5354

Yes?‑‑‑Most golf professionals run the pro-ams at the club.

PN5355

But apart from the golfing professionals, does the golfing industry include the employees that are working at that golf tournament?‑‑‑Well, it would only be the golfing staff that would be working on an event.

PN5356

I understand. Does the golf industry include employees that are working at a resort that has a golf course?‑‑‑It would be the golfing employees that organise the golfing events, yes.

PN5357

Can I ask you to have a look at a folder of documents. Ms Crowe, can I ask you to open the folder and do you see a series of tabs?‑‑‑I do.

PN5358

Can I ask you to go to the document behind tab 9. Do you see behind tab 9 the front section of a survey that the PGA conducted in March 2018?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN5359

Were you involved in the distribution of the survey?‑‑‑Yes, I was.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5360

Was the distribution of the survey via electronic means?‑‑‑It was.

PN5361

Are you able to indicate to the members of the Commission how - sorry, I take it that the survey only went to members of the PGA?‑‑‑Vocational members.

PN5362

Vocational members?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5363

Are vocational members the members that are not touring golfing professionals?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN5364

Do I understand that you sent or distributed the survey to about 2200 vocational golf professionals?‑‑‑We would have sent it to all our vocational members, yes.

PN5365

As at March 2018, are there approximately 2200 vocational members?‑‑‑Yes, approximately that amount. Yes.

PN5366

If you then turn to the second page, is that the first page of the survey that was sent to the vocational members?‑‑‑Not in that form, but that's the questions, yes.

PN5367

I see. And was it sent to them in a form where they answered each question individually?‑‑‑Yes, through an online survey program.

PN5368

Are you able to indicate to the Commission the organisation that developed the online survey program?‑‑‑Yes, it was SurveyMonkey.

PN5369

Staying with the second page was the second question an indication about the role that best related to the vocational professional?‑‑‑Or contractor or independent contractor, yes.

PN5370

Yes. And there was a series of options?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5371

The vocational professional would be able to click on the applicable option?‑‑‑Correct, yes.

PN5372

Then if you could turn the page do you see question 9, "Is your club or facility regional or metro?"?‑‑‑I do.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5373

Was there an option for the vocational professional to indicate the applicable club or facility?‑‑‑There was.

PN5374

Do you see question 10?‑‑‑I do.

PN5375

Was there an option for the vocational professional to select the award that they regarded as covering them?‑‑‑Yes, correct.

PN5376

Do you see question 13?‑‑‑I do.

PN5377

Was there an option for the vocational professional to indicate the applicable option to them?‑‑‑There was.

PN5378

Could you turn the page, please? Do you see question 14?‑‑‑I do.

PN5379

Was there an option for the vocational professional to insert the number of days that he or she worked on public holidays?‑‑‑There was.

PN5380

Then in terms of question 15, was there an ability for the vocational professional to insert their base salary exclusive of superannuation into the survey?‑‑‑There was.

PN5381

Can I ask you to then turn the page? Do you see an extract of summary of results?‑‑‑I do.

PN5382

And is the first summary that you see a pie chart dealing with award coverage?‑‑‑It is.

PN5383

Does that pie chart indicate that 45 per cent of people responding to the survey indicated that they were covered by the Amusement Award, and 55 per cent were covered by the Clubs Award?‑‑‑It does.

PN5384

Does that mean that there was no – sorry, was that award coverage pie chart based upon question 10 in the survey?‑‑‑It was.

PN5385

Do we take it that because there's no indication of Fitness Award that no participant in the survey indicated that they were covered by the Fitness Award?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5386

Equally, do we take it from the pie chart that because we see no reference to "not covered by an award" that no person who participated in the survey indicated they were award free?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5387

Do you still have in front of you the page headed Extract of Summary of Results?‑‑‑I do, yes.

PN5388

Below the pie chart do you see a heading, PGA professions working weekends under the Clubs Award data returned 412 Respondents?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN5389

Do you understand that the data that's contained in that table indicates that 331 respondents, who were PGA professionals working on a weekend under the Clubs Award worked on a Saturday?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5390

And equally 273 of the 412 respondents, who were PGA professionals working weekends under the Clubs Award worked on a Sunday?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5391

Could I ask you then to turn the page? Do you see another page headed, Extract of Summary of Results?‑‑‑I do.

PN5392

But with two pie charts on it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5393

The first pie chart deals with Clubs Award employees who held an assistant golf and professional position?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5394

There's actually no percentage recorded in the pie chart; is that right?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5395

Do I understand that – or do you understand that the green represented in the first pie chart represents assistant professionals?‑‑‑It does.

PN5396

And the red indicates teaching professionals?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN5397

The blue indicates head professionals?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5398

Is that summary based on both questions 2 and 10 in the survey?‑‑‑No, it's only based on question 2.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5399

Only based on question 2?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5400

Are you able to indicate to the Commission the classification of an assistant golf professional under the Clubs Award?‑‑‑Of an assistant professional? Yes.

PN5401

Yes?‑‑‑Yes, the majority would be level 3. Some are level 4, but the majority that I deal with are level 3, leisure attendant grade 2, sorry.

PN5402

So leisure attendant grade 2 or a leisure attendant grade 3?‑‑‑Well, level 3 is grade 2 – leisure attendant grade 2, and if they were level 4 it would be leisure attendant grade 3.

PN5403

Thank you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5404

Do I understand it that there's no summary for question 2 insofar as it related to the number of contracted professionals?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5405

Are you able to generate a report that indicates the number of contracted professionals that answered question 2?‑‑‑Yes, I could.

PN5406

Would you be able to general such a report in the next 24 to 48 hours?‑‑‑No, I couldn't because the person that generates the reports in the finance team is in Europe at the moment.

PN5407

Would you be able to generate such a report in the near future?‑‑‑Yes, I would.

PN5408

Would you also be able to generate a report that looked at all of the director of golf, golf operations positions that are referenced in question 2?‑‑‑Yes, we could.

PN5409

What period of time would you need to be able to prepare such a report?

PN5410

MR DOWLNG: I object to this. I mean, the witness can be asked to produce documents and documents might be called for, but the witness shouldn't be asked to create evidence and prepare reports.

PN5411

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: At this stage she's only been asked how long would it take.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5412

MR GOTTING: How long would it – yes, I don't know that the witness has answered, or have I missed the answer?

PN5413

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, Ms Crowe, you're being asked – what was the question? How long would it take to generate a report based on question 2?

PN5414

MR GOTTING: That dealt with contracted positions.

PN5415

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, so dealt with it in what way?

PN5416

MR GOTTING: That indicated the number of responses of contracted head professionals and contracted teaching professionals.

PN5417

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: How long would that take?‑‑‑It would take probably six weeks.

PN5418

Thank you.

PN5419

MR GOTTING: Did you look at any analysis of question 2 that indicated the number of contracted head professionals or contracted teaching professionals?‑‑‑No, I didn't.

PN5420

Did you look at any analysis of question 2 that indicated the number of director of golf positions?‑‑‑No, I didn't.

PN5421

Is it the case that the only analysis that you looked at in respect of question 2 is that pie chart that deals with assistant golf professionals, the top one on the second page?‑‑‑Assistant professionals, yes.

PN5422

If you go back to question 13 of the survey ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5423

‑ ‑ ‑did you look at any analysis of the responses to that question?‑‑‑I looked at some analysis, yes.

PN5424

And what was the analysis that you saw in response to that question?‑‑‑I haven't made any summary of that yet. I've only seen the raw data. There's no summary been made.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5425

What did the raw data reveal to you?‑‑‑I haven't looked at all the responses. There are 500 responses, yes.

PN5426

How many responses have you looked at in respect of question 13?‑‑‑Well, going back in March when this was done probably about 100, but, yes, I couldn't give you an accurate answer because I haven't looked at all the data.

PN5427

In terms of the 100 that you looked up - you looked at in March in 2018, are you able to indicate the number of responses that indicated that they got time in lieu for weekend work?‑‑‑No, I'm sorry, I can't.

PN5428

Are you able to indicate the number of responses that you saw in March 2018 being paid at a higher rate that included weekend penalty rates?‑‑‑No.

PN5429

What was the reason that you did not conduct any analysis in relation to question 13?‑‑‑There was no reason. A lot of these questions are yet to be analysed. It's really just a matter of capacity of the finance team to be able to put a report together and analyse it.

PN5430

But you know that one of the issues in these proceedings relates to weekend penalty rates?‑‑‑It does, yes.

PN5431

You know that you are giving evidence in these proceedings in support of the union position opposing a reduction in the weekend penalty rates?‑‑‑Yes. That's correct.

PN5432

You appreciate that the material in question 13 was relevant to the question of the number of people that received weekend penalty rates covered by the Clubs Award?‑‑‑Well, I didn't mention penalty rates in my submission, I only mentioned about a percentage of income. That's what we were looking at.

PN5433

Can you please attend to my question?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5434

You did not – I'll withdraw that. Did you do any analysis of the answers to question 14 in the survey?‑‑‑Analysis, yes.

PN5435

What was the analysis that you gained from question 14?‑‑‑The analysis showed that about 95 per cent of our members work seven to 10 public holidays a year. Between seven and 10.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5436

Is there a graph or a pie chart that relates to that analysis?‑‑‑There's not a graph that's been produced, but that was the analysis.

PN5437

I see. How many responses were there to the public holidays question 14?‑‑‑I can't remember how many responses to that question.

PN5438

Why did you focus on analysing question 14 and not question 13?‑‑‑Because we weren't looking at that. We were actually looking at how many worked weekends, the percentage of their income that was derived from working weekends. What we wanted to ascertain was how many of our members actually had to work Saturday and Sundays and public holidays, what portion that was of their income.

PN5439

To work out what proportion it was of their income it'd be relevant to know whether they were receiving weekend penalty rates; would it not?‑‑‑Well, I'm sorry, I can't assist you there because I didn't do the analysis, the finance team did it, so I'm not quite sure how they did it.

PN5440

In terms of question 15 in the survey ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5441

‑ ‑ ‑ did you see any analysis that related to the responses to that question?‑‑‑I saw some of the responses but I passed the information to the finance team, the CFO, to do the analysis.

PN5442

What were the responses that you observed in relation to question 15?‑‑‑The amount? The numbers?

PN5443

Yes?‑‑‑Every question varied. It could be 500, it could be 400, it could be 200. So to be able to remember all 20 questions and how many responded, I'm sorry, I just – I can't give you that amount.

PN5444

But do I understand that you just said in relation to question 15 that some of the responses that you saw indicated $500,000?‑‑‑Five hundred thousand dollars?

PN5445

Or was the reference to 500, the number of responses, or a reference to the number of ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑The number of responses.

PN5446

I see?‑‑‑Yes.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5447

Are you able to indicate the range of salaries that you observed when you looked at the responses?‑‑‑They were all over the place. Some were 20,000, some put down zero, they didn't answer the question. Some put 10,000, some put 60,000, some put 80,000, but I've only scrolled down. It's a scroll down/drop down bar, and they haven't been analysed yet. Yes.

PN5448

Did you say that you passed on the responses to question 15 to the CFO of the PGA?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5449

Was the CFO to do the analysis?‑‑‑Yes, he was.

PN5450

Do you know whether the CFO has done that analysis?‑‑‑No, the CFO is overseas. He's in Europe, yes.

PN5451

I see. Ms Crowe, can I ask you to look at the document behind tab 6 in the cross-examination bundle? Have you seen that document before?‑‑‑I have.

PN5452

If you go to page 6 of the document behind tab 6, do you see your signature and your name?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN5453

Do you see the date, 28 September 2015?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN5454

Is that an application that you filed on behalf of the Professional Golfers of Australia with the Commission?‑‑‑It is.

PN5455

Was the effect of that application to seek to vary the Amusement Award?‑‑‑It was.

PN5456

In particular to introduce into that award a classification of PGA golf professional?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5457

One part of that application was to introduce a classification structure for PGA golf professionals from grades 4 through 9?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5458

If you go to page 4 behind tab 6, do you see towards the top the statement, "The applicant seeks the inclusion of the following clauses"?‑‑‑I do.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5459

It says "changes in red". I don't know that you can see the red, but is the red the material that appears, 23.5 Special Provisions for Qualified Golf PGA Professionals?‑‑‑It would be, yes.

PN5460

It goes to the next heading, Grounds?‑‑‑It would be, yes.

PN5461

What you were seeking by this application was to address time off in lieu of payment of overtime provisions for PGA golf professionals?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5462

It was not seeking to address penalty rates?‑‑‑Not at that stage, no.

PN5463

You set out the grounds on page 4 and following?‑‑‑Yes, I did.

PN5464

If you turn to page 5, in paragraph 5 on that page, you referred to an alleged complexity of finding a best fit award for golf professionals?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5465

Many PGA members have been deemed to be award free?‑‑‑In the past, yes.

PN5466

Then you set out in paragraph 6 the awards that might apply to a golf professional?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5467

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, Ms Crowe, in what circumstances would they be award free if their employees are not contractors?‑‑‑That was the recommendation because of the lack of clarity they felt when I started the PGA that I found many of them deem themselves to be award free. What I've tried to do is tried to change that situation and get them on to a modern award or ‑ ‑ ‑'

PN5468

But is there some particular scenario you can identify where they're award free?‑‑‑I'm not sure how it happened, your Honour. No, I'm not sure. It's pre my time, yes.

PN5469

Thank you.

PN5470

MR GOTTING: By that application you were seeking that those golf professionals that regarded themselves as award free to be covered by the Amusement Award?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5471

If that application was granted in the terms sought, those golf professionals would receive the penalty rates contained in the Amusement Award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5472

That application did not seek to affect golf professionals who were covered by the Hospitality Award?‑‑‑No, it didn't.

PN5473

If the original application in the terms that was filed was granted the potential outcome would be at least golf professionals being covered by either or by one of the Amusement Award, the Hospitality Award or the Clubs Award?‑‑‑Or the Fitness Award or the Local Council Award, yes.

PN5474

Thank you?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5475

I wasn't trying to exclude those ones, but I was just trying to identify the three major ones?‑‑‑Yes. That's right.

PN5476

Can I then ask you to go to the document behind tab 7? you've seen this document before, Ms Crowe?‑‑‑I have, Mr Dowling(sic), yes.

PN5477

This was a document that you arranged to send to the award modernisation team on 6 December 2016?‑‑‑That's correct. Yes.

PN5478

On the second page of the document behind tab 7 you see your name and your signature?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5479

This document was sent to the Commission in light of some of the exposure drafts that had been issued by the Commission?‑‑‑That's right.

PN5480

You were seeking to maintain that the application behind tab 6 would continue to be dealt with by the Commission in due course?‑‑‑Yes. That's correct.

PN5481

And you did not propose any amendments to that original application?‑‑‑No.

PN5482

At the top of page 2 of the document behind tab 7 you referred again to the two best fit awards that covered the golf industry?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5483

And you specified those two awards as the Amusement Award and the Clubs Award?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5484

Can I then ask you to go to the document behind tab 8? Have you seen that document before, Ms Crowe?‑‑‑I have.

PN5485

If you go to page 4 of the document behind tab 8?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5486

Do you see your name?‑‑‑I do.

PN5487

And a date of 10 October 2017?‑‑‑I do.

PN5488

There's no signature; is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5489

But the document, despite not having a signature, was filed in the Commission?‑‑‑That's correct. Yes.

PN5490

That application was accompanied by a submission that appears on pages 5 through 9 of the document behind tab 8?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN5491

You prepared that submission on pages 5 through 9?‑‑‑I did.

PN5492

By the application, you were proposing to amend your original application to the Commission?‑‑‑We were.

PN5493

The variation was still to be made to the Amusement Award?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5494

If you look at page 3 of the document behind tab 8, do you see section 2.2 of the application?‑‑‑I do.

PN5495

And you set out in section 2.2 it was an amended application to vary the Amusement Award in accordance with the substantive claims still being pursued?‑‑‑That's correct. Yes.

PN5496

It says there that the inclusions are identified in blue. I'm sorry, I don't have it in blue to show you, but if you go to page 6 behind tab 8 ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5497

‑ ‑ ‑do you see some inclusions?‑‑‑I do.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5498

Was one of the inclusions an insertion into clause 3.1 of the award the definition of golf professional?‑‑‑It was, yes.

PN5499

If you turn over the page to page 7, you'll see a proposed inclusion in clause 14.1?‑‑‑I do.

PN5500

Was the additional inclusion grade 10 at the bottom of the list of classifications?‑‑‑That's correct. Yes.

PN5501

Then if you turn to page 8 there were some further inclusions to be inserted into schedule B?‑‑‑That's right. Yes.

PN5502

Some of the insertions were for grade 6 and grade 10?‑‑‑Yes. That's correct.

PN5503

That amended application was to insert the classification of golf professional into the Amusement Award?‑‑‑It was.

PN5504

And it did not have a specific provision for penalty rates for golf professionals?‑‑‑No.

PN5505

The amended application, if it was granted in the terms sought, would result in the golf professionals being covered by the Amusement Award and a range of other awards?‑‑‑The idea was to create clarity for our members that were unsure of what award they should be paid under if they didn't work for a registered or licensed club.

PN5506

But one outcome of the amended application, if it was granted in the terms sought, would be that those members who were the subject of uncertainty would be covered by the Amusement Award?‑‑‑Or the Registered and Licensed Clubs Award, yes.

PN5507

Or the Amusement Award if that was the applicable – or, sorry ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑If that was the applicable award, yes, absolutely. Yes.

PN5508

I'm sorry, I might have confused you. I meant to say or the Hospitality Award if that was the applicable award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5509

Or the Fitness Award if they were working at a driving range?‑‑‑Yes.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5510

The amended application, if granted in the terms sought, would result in golfing professionals receiving the penalty rates under the amusement award?‑‑‑That's right, yes.

PN5511

I want to deal with a different topic now, Ms Crowe. I think you indicated earlier that some of the members of the Professional Golfers Association are contractors rather than employees?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN5512

The Professional Golfers Association has prepared a standard subcontract to assist its contract members in recording the terms of their subcontract with the golf clubs?‑‑‑We have an independent contractor's agreement that we provide contracted professionals, yes.

PN5513

Could I ask you to look at the document behind tab 10?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5514

Is that a version of the contract that you just referred to in your previous answer?‑‑‑No, it's not.

PN5515

I see. Is there a contract of a similar kind that the PGA has developed for its contract members?‑‑‑Yes, I've developed one.

PN5516

That contract sets out the services to be provided by the contract member?‑‑‑It's not in the same format at all as this one.

PN5517

I see?‑‑‑It has no relevance to this document.

PN5518

But its effect, even if it is different to what appears behind tab 10, is to specify the services that are to be provided by the contract member to the club?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN5519

Another effect is to specify the services that will be provided by the club?‑‑‑Yes, that's right.

PN5520

The purpose of you developing that subcontract is to enable your contract members to use it as the basis for recording their agreement with the club if they are a contractor to a club?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN5521

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What is the relevance of this, Mr Gotting?

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5522

MR GOTTING: The relevance is to demonstrate that there is a significant number of contracted golf professionals that work in the industry and - - -

PN5523

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think we had already established that, but where does it go beyond that?

PN5524

MR GOTTING: I had understood that the contract behind tab 10 was in a standard format. The witness has told me that that is not her understanding and I am going to leave it at that.

PN5525

Ms Crowe, you are aware that some golf professionals who are employees are paid a salary that is above the award entitlements?‑‑‑I am.

PN5526

That salary is above the entitlements that are specified in the clubs award, if that's the applicable award?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN5527

The salary is sufficiently high to cover all the minimum entitlements that are specified in the clubs award, if that's the relevant club award?‑‑‑Yes, for a particular job title, yes.

PN5528

You are also aware that some golf professionals are paid under an enterprise agreement?‑‑‑Yes, I am.

PN5529

By way of example, the Sydney Golf Club has an enterprise agreement?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5530

And the golf professionals that work at the Sydney Golf Club are covered by an enterprise agreement rather than the award?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN5531

The Royal Melbourne Golf Course also has an enterprise agreement?‑‑‑I'm not quite sure.

PN5532

The Rosebud Golf Club has an enterprise agreement?‑‑‑I don't know about the Rosebud Golf Club. I've come across very few EBAs in my four years of working and dealing with members, very few.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5533

Thank you. Do you agree that PGA professionals who are working for a club work on weekends and public holidays as they are the busiest days for the golf club?‑‑‑Yes, they do.

PN5534

Ms Crowe, do you accept that one part of the work of a golf professional is coaching?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN5535

Another part of the work of a golf professional is managing competitions at a golf club?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN5536

A third part of the work of a golf professional is sometimes, but not always, repairing golf equipment?‑‑‑Correct, yes, that's right.

PN5537

The work of a golf professional, in some cases but not all cases, is managing a pro shop?‑‑‑That's right, yes.

PN5538

And the work of a golf professional, in some but not all cases, involves selling golf equipment?‑‑‑Yes, that's right.

PN5539

That work of a golf professional is the same work if it's performed at a golf club or performed at a resort that has a golf club?‑‑‑I would presume so, yes.

PN5540

That work is the same if it's performed as an employee of the golf club directly or instead as an employee of a subcontractor to the golf club?‑‑‑Sorry, could you explain that to me, please?

PN5541

The work is the same if it's performed by the employee directly for the golf club or through another golf professional that operates the pro shop?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN5542

In terms of the training of a golf professional, the PGA has a trainee program?‑‑‑They do.

PN5543

They also have a bridging program for touring professionals who wish to become vocational professionals?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN5544

The PGA has a golf performance program?‑‑‑Yes, we do.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5545

And the PGA is also associated with the International Golfing Institute?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5546

The International Golfing Institute has its own program as well?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN5547

The training that is undertaken by a golf professional is for the work at a golf club or for the work at a golf course run by a resort?‑‑‑It's to work as a professional golfer, yes, that's right.

PN5548

And it doesn't depend on whether you are working directly for a club or for a resort or some other employer?‑‑‑Or you go on tour, yes.

PN5549

Ms Crowe, in your role, are you required from time to time to advise your members of entitlements under awards?‑‑‑Yes, I am.

PN5550

You are aware that the Fair Work Ombudsman has a pay guide on its website?‑‑‑Yes, the P.A.C.T guide, yes.

PN5551

Have you used the P.A.C.T. guide before?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN5552

You are aware that the Fair Work Commission has a list of allowances for each of the awards?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5553

You have used those allowances previously?‑‑‑Many years ago. I'm not - I wouldn't say I was proficient at it, yes, but I do recommend it to our members, yes.

PN5554

Does the recommendation of use also extend to the P.A.C.T. guide?‑‑‑To the P.A.C.T tool?

PN5555

Or to the P.A.C.T. tool?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN5556

Thank you. That completes the cross-examination.

PN5557

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you.

PN5558

MR GOTTING: Sorry, I will endeavour to identify the documents in the cross-examination bundle and provide them to my friend and tender them in due course.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5559

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Crowe, do employed golf professionals usually supply their own golf clubs?‑‑‑Not employed, no.

PN5560

Do contractors typically do that?‑‑‑For weekend work, they could, or they could use the club's. It depends on the arrangement with the clubs. All the clubs have different arrangements with them, yes.

PN5561

Thank you. Mr Dowling, any re-examination?

PN5562

MR DOWLING: No re-examination, your Honour. If Ms Crowe might be excused?

PN5563

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you for your evidence, Ms Crowe, you are excused and you are free to go?‑‑‑Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.25 PM]

PN5564

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that all we have for today?

PN5565

MR DOWLING: It is, your Honour.

PN5566

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Anything else we can deal with today?

PN5567

MR GOTTING: There is just one matter. It flows from a question that your Honour posed just this morning relating to the - - -

PN5568

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Gaming attendants?

PN5569

MR GOTTING: The gaming attendants. If your Honour is looking at the current copy of the Registered and Licensed Clubs Award, on page 60 there is a definition of a food and beverage attendant grade 3. That definition is set out in clause C2.3 and subparagraph (d) refers to attending a wagering e.g. TAB terminal, electronic gaming terminal or similar terminal.

PN5570

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

*** VICKI CROWE XXN MR GOTTING

PN5571

MR GOTTING: My instructions are they are the activities of a gaming attendant in a club.

PN5572

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: There is another one over the page at C2.5.

PN5573

MR GOTTING: Yes.

PN5574

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Are they reproduced in the proposed new award?

PN5575

MR GOTTING: Yes, the proposed award at page 78, the first bullet point at the top of page 78.

PN5576

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Where did grade 5 go?

PN5577

MR GOTTING: I will have to get some instructions about that. I'm sorry, I thought I was in a position to answer it fully, but I am obviously not.

PN5578

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, if there is nothing further, we will now adjourn. How long do the parties think the witnesses tomorrow will take?

PN5579

MR DOWLING: Your Honour, I think I can say, noting that they are not witnesses called by United Voice, but I think I understand from discussions that I have had that there will be no examination-in-chief other than the tendering of the material, so that's really a question for my learned friends.

PN5580

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN5581

MR GOTTING: We feel comfortable if we start at 10 am rather than 9.30 am and being able to get through the five witnesses that are listed for tomorrow.

PN5582

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: By 4?

PN5583

MR GOTTING: By 4 pm.

PN5584

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, we will now adjourn and we will resume at 10 am tomorrow morning.

ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 06 JULY 2018 [3.29 PM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE, SWORN..................................................... PN4217

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DOWLING......................................... PN4217

EXHIBIT #35 WITNESS STATEMENT OF DANIEL JAMES CONSTABLE DATED 10/05/2018, WITH DELETION.......................................................................... PN4274

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON..................................................... PN4282

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DOWLING...................................................... PN4587

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN4597

DEANNA LEE KELLY, SWORN.................................................................... PN4611

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BURKE................................................ PN4611

EXHIBIT #36 STATEMENT OF DEANNA LEE KELLY DATED 14/05/2018 PN4625

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON..................................................... PN4628

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN4708

MARK JEFFREY UNWIN, AFFIRMED....................................................... PN4733

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DOWLING......................................... PN4733

EXHIBIT #R37 STATEMENT OF MARK UNWIN DATED 10/05/2018 SUBJECT TO EARLIER IDENTIFIED DELETIONS AND RULINGS............................. PN4747

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GOTTING............................................... PN4751

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN4948

MAGDALENA MARIA GORMAN, SWORN............................................... PN4963

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BURKE................................................ PN4963

EXHIBIT #38 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MAGDALENA MARIA GORMAN DATED 10/05/2018............................................................................................................. PN4984

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON..................................................... PN4986

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN5042

PETER BRIAN COOPER, SWORN................................................................ PN5046

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DOWLING......................................... PN5046

EXHIBIT #39 WITNESS STATEMENT OF PETER BRIAN COOPER DATED 07/05/2018............................................................................................................................... PN5071

EXHIBIT #40 SUBMISSIONS TO THE AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS COMMISSION BY CLUBS AUSTRALIA RE MODERN AWARD MODERNISATION PROCESS............................................................................................................. PN5081

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON..................................................... PN5083

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN5155

PETER BRIAN COOPER, RECALLED........................................................ PN5155

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON, CONTINUING........................ PN5155

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DOWLING...................................................... PN5274

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN5287

VICKI CROWE, AFFIRMED.......................................................................... PN5291

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR DOWLING......................................... PN5291

EXHIBIT #41 WITNESS STATEMENT OF VICKI CROWE DATED 11/05/2018 PN5312

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GOTTING............................................... PN5314

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN5563