PN5585

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Crowe, you are calling the next witness?

PN5586

MS CROWE: I am, your Honour, yes.

PN5587

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The next witness is Mr Stewart; is that correct?

PN5588

MS CROWE: Yes, it is, your Honour.

PN5589

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, we will give Mr Stewart the affirmation.

PN5590

MR DIXON: If the Commission pleases, I apologise on the part of my learned friend Mr Gotting. He is otherwise engaged this morning.

PN5591

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, thank you.

PN5592

THE ASSOCIATED: Mr Stewart, can you please state your full name and address.

PN5593

MR STEWART: Geoffrey Thomas Stewart, (address supplied).

<GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART, AFFIRMED [10.04 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS CROWE [10.04 AM]

PN5594

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Crowe?

PN5595

MS CROWE: Mr Stewart, could you please tell the Commission your full name?‑‑‑Geoffrey Thomas Stewart.

PN5596

What is your address?‑‑‑(Address supplied)

PN5597

What is your occupation?‑‑‑General manager of membership and education at the Professional Golfers Association of Australia.

*** GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART XN MS CROWE

PN5598

Have you prepared a statement for the purposes of this proceeding?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5599

Do you have a copy of that statement with you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5600

Is it 11 paragraphs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5601

Signed and dated by you on 17 May 2018?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN5602

Are the contents of your statement true and accurate?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5603

I tender that statement.

PN5604

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Are there objections, Mr Dixon?

PN5605

MR DIXON: No objections, your Honour, except it might have to be clarified that Mr Stewart appears to be referring to something on a computer and I don't know that he's got the document in front of him. I understand that he may not have the hard copy. I just want to make sure that he's got on his screen what we are looking at here.

PN5606

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Stewart, do you have a hard copy of your statement or are you looking at a screen?‑‑‑No, I'm looking at a screen, your Honour.

PN5607

Just to confirm, the document you are looking at is just two pages and 11 paragraphs; is that right?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5608

It is a documented titled "Statement of Geoff Stewart"; is that right?‑‑‑Yes, that is correct, your Honour.

PN5609

Does that satisfy that?

PN5610

MR DIXON: Yes, your Honour.

PN5611

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The statement of Geoff Stewart dated 17 May 2018 will be marked exhibit 42.

EXHIBIT #42 STATEMENT OF GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART DATED 17/05/2018

*** GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART XN MS CROWE

PN5612

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon?

PN5613

MR DIXON: Thank you, your Honour.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON [10.06 AM]

PN5614

MR DIXON: Mr Stewart, as general manager, membership and education, you have knowledge of the membership of the PGA?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN5615

That association has, to your knowledge, about 2800 members?‑‑‑In total, yes.

PN5616

Some of those total membership consist of vocational members?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN5617

What percentage of the 2800 would be vocational members?‑‑‑Well, it's approximately 2200 are vocational members, I think it's 2240 at this stage, so north of 86 per cent, if my calculations are correct, 80 to 85 per cent are vocational.

PN5618

What do you understand by a "vocational" member?‑‑‑A vocational member of the Professional Golfers Association is someone who works in the golf industry as a club professional coach, teaching professional, general manager, a range of industry roles in golf.

PN5619

Some of those vocational members are touring members?‑‑‑Very few, approximately 50.

PN5620

I think you said 51? I beg your pardon, 50?‑‑‑Approximately 50.

PN5621

Those members participate as a player on one of the golf tours?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5622

Do you not have approximately 600 touring members?‑‑‑Yes, they're separate from vocational members.

*** GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART XXN MR DIXON

PN5623

I understand. I apologise. What do you describe as a "touring" member? Are they separate from touring vocational members?‑‑‑Correct. So there's around 500 or 600 tournament members of the PGA of Australia. They solely play professional golf and they have no vocational rights whatsoever, they have no right to work in the golf industry as a coach, a club professional, teaching professional, director of golf, et cetera.

PN5624

Of the 2800, for anyone who has got any industrial coverage, is it your understanding that you exclude the 600 touring members?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5625

You have previously worked at golf clubs?‑‑‑I'm a former club professional myself, yes, and I'm currently a member of the PGA myself.

PN5626

Did you work as a contractor rather than an employee when you were a golf professional?‑‑‑I worked as both or either.

PN5627

At some stage, you were employed as a golf professional?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5628

At some stage, you were engaged as an independent contractor?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5629

When you were engaged as an independent contractor, did you employ other golfers, members of the association?‑‑‑No, I was a teaching professional, so I was a sole proprietor, so to speak.

PN5630

For how long were you a contractor?‑‑‑Approximately five years.

PN5631

Who were you contracted to?‑‑‑A golf club.

PN5632

Which one?‑‑‑I worked in Canada for a number of years in Montreal.

PN5633

In Australia, were you contracted with any golf club at any stage?‑‑‑No.

PN5634

To your knowledge, based on your experience, not all golfing professionals that work at golf clubs in Australia are employees?‑‑‑That's correct, some are contractors and some are employees.

PN5635

The position is, is it not, that approximately 67 per cent of golf professionals in Australia work as contractors?‑‑‑I would suggest that that figure is high - too high.

PN5636

But it's in the ballpark?‑‑‑No, not according to the PGA's data.

*** GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART XXN MR DIXON

PN5637

When you say "the PGA's data", is that the data that you gathered in a survey?‑‑‑It's gathered from a range of sources, a survey, but the PGA database itself, the CRM that holds all our data relating to our members suggests that that figure is significantly high that you have just provided.

PN5638

Did you establish that question from a recent survey that was carried out by the PGA?‑‑‑No. The PGA database indicates that as many as 850 to 900 of our vocational members who work in golf in Australia are employees at a minimum.

PN5639

Does your organisation prepare contracts for members to use as independent contractors?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5640

Do you promote that form of engagement as beneficial to members?‑‑‑We promote all forms of engagement as beneficial, whatever is best for the employee, or whatever's best - I should correct that - whatever's best for the PGA professional, whether that's a contract or whether that's as an employee, whatever is best for the professional is what we promote in any given situation.

PN5641

But you identify, do you, that there are benefits in certain circumstances for professionals to be engaged as contractors?‑‑‑In certain circumstances, and then other circumstances it's beneficial to be an employee.

PN5642

The PGA points out the benefits to members of being a contractor?

PN5643

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, didn't you just ask that question, Mr Dixon?

PN5644

THE WITNESS: Yes, or employee.

PN5645

MR DIXON: I beg your pardon, your Honour?

PN5646

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Didn't you just ask that question?

PN5647

MR DIXON: I couldn't hear your Honour.

PN5648

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Didn't you just ask that question?

*** GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART XXN MR DIXON

PN5649

MR DIXON: I withdraw the question, your Honour.

PN5650

To your knowledge, Mr Stewart, not all golf professionals are paid a wage or allowance and penalty rates?‑‑‑Are you suggesting - sorry, I don't understand that question.

PN5651

Not all golf professionals - I'm sorry, can I start again. To your knowledge, not all golf professionals are paid a wage, allowance and penalty rates?‑‑‑Correct, some are contractors.

PN5652

And some golf professionals are simply paid an all-up salary?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5653

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, are you talking about employees now or anybody?

PN5654

MR DIXON: I stand corrected - I appreciate, your Honour - employees.

PN5655

I am referring to employees now, Mr Stewart. So some golf professionals who are employees are simply paid a salary, an all-up salary?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5656

Some golf professionals employed at larger golf clubs are, to your knowledge, paid an all-up salary?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5657

When I use the phrase "larger golf clubs", what is your understanding of what is a large golf club and can you give examples of large golf clubs?‑‑‑Are you talking about the number of members or the gross revenue? There's a number of different ways of measuring what's large.

PN5658

Let's start with membership?‑‑‑I think 250 members plus would be medium to large; 500 would be considered large.

PN5659

The first figure you gave was?

PN5660

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: 250.

PN5661

MR DIXON: 250? You consider 250 as large?

*** GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART XXN MR DIXON

PN5662

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, he said 250 would be medium to large; over 500 would be large.

PN5663

MR DIXON: Yes.

PN5664

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that correct, Mr Stewart?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5665

MR DIXON: I apologise, your Honour, I am having some difficulty in hearing over the system.

PN5666

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Can we try and turn it up a bit?

PN5667

MR DIXON: Thank you. I do have a hearing deficiency and I apologise if I am not hearing Mr Stewart.

PN5668

In your statement, you make reference to coverage on two awards that employees who are golf professionals are employed under. You mention the registered clubs award and the amusement events recreation award. Do you recall that?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5669

To your knowledge, golf professionals as employees are also covered by the hospitality award in some instances?‑‑‑I don't know of any particular instances myself personally.

PN5670

Going back to the question of description of large golf clubs, by revenue, what would you rate a large golf club on a revenue basis?‑‑‑I'm not sure I can answer that question. It's not my area of expertise.

PN5671

Thank you. The busiest days for golf professionals, in your experience, are weekends?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5672

Golf professionals organise the time that members play?‑‑‑In most instances, yes.

PN5673

They organise the tee-off times that members play in most instances?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5674

And they provide lessons to clients?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5675

And they assist in selecting the appropriate clubs for members?‑‑‑Correct.

*** GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART XXN MR DIXON

PN5676

They sell merchandise?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5677

In your experience, more members play on the weekend than during the week on most golf courses?‑‑‑On most golf courses, yes.

PN5678

Many members, to your knowledge, work during the week?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5679

Most clients take lessons on the weekend, in your experience?‑‑‑It varies.

PN5680

Are public holidays busy days for golf professionals?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5681

But not all would work on public holidays?‑‑‑The vast majority.

PN5682

When I asked you earlier about vocational members, do they include golf club managers?‑‑‑Some.

PN5683

What percentage?‑‑‑There's 42 - our most recent data indicates there's 42 PGA professionals who are general managers of golf clubs.

PN5684

Are you familiar with the Noosa Springs Resort?‑‑‑Not particularly. I know where it is.

PN5685

Have you visited it?‑‑‑No.

PN5686

The Links Hope Island Golf course?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5687

Are you familiar with that course?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5688

And the club?‑‑‑Broadly.

PN5689

I beg your pardon?‑‑‑Broadly.

PN5690

Broadly familiar, but you are familiar enough to tell the Commission it's a championship course?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART XXN MR DIXON

PN5691

It has restaurant facilities?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5692

A bar or more than one bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5693

Is it more than one?‑‑‑I can't recall.

PN5694

Does it provide other food offerings that you can recall?‑‑‑I just indicated there's a restaurant, I think. What is "other"?

PN5695

Other than through the restaurant?‑‑‑I'm not sure, I don't know.

PN5696

Mr Stewart, you are aware, I take it, as the general manager of membership and education, that in March of 2018, PGA conducted a four-yearly salary review of its membership?‑‑‑Yes, I'm aware of the survey.

PN5697

You are aware, are you, that the members of the organisation were invited to respond to that survey because it was regarded as a very important PGA salary survey?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5698

You are aware that PGA was asking members to provide the information because PGA wanted to use it for benchmarking purposes?‑‑‑Yes, we conduct salary surveys on a biennial basis for that reason.

PN5699

In order to do that benchmarking, you obviously have got to get the data of the salaries of members in order to carry out the benchmarking exercise?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5700

Are you aware that following the invitation to members to complete what was described as a four-yearly salary review in March 2018, there was an analysis provided to PGA about the results of that survey?‑‑‑An analysis provided to the PGA? I don't understand the question. It was the PGA that did the survey.

PN5701

It used an external provider or website called Census Monkey to conduct and produce reports; do you know that?‑‑‑Are you referring to Survey Monkey?

PN5702

Yes, Survey Monkey; you are aware of that?‑‑‑I believe that was the mode used, but I did not personally conduct the survey myself.

*** GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART XXN MR DIXON

PN5703

I know?‑‑‑I can't definitively say.

PN5704

Did you see all the questions that were asked in the survey?‑‑‑I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question.

PN5705

Did you see the questions that your members were asked to respond to in that survey?‑‑‑Prior to the survey, yes.

PN5706

You knew from that that questions were being asked about a range of matters, including whether members were contracted, head professionals, contracted teaching professionals and their various categories in which they operated?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5707

You knew that the survey, being a survey directed at a salary review, was asking your members to indicate their base salary exclusive of superannuation for the purposes of the analysis which PGA wanted to carry out?‑‑‑Yes, I can't recall if it asked a base salary or a salary range. My recollection is not perfect now. I think it was base salary, as you indicated.

PN5708

You were aware that members were asked in that survey to provide answers to questions in relation to weekend penalty rates?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5709

You were aware that the questions included whether the member was paid weekend penalty rates?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5710

Another question as to whether members got time in lieu for weekend work?‑‑‑I can't recall that question.

PN5711

You recall that the questions in relation to weekend penalty rates also included whether "I am paid at a higher rate that includes weekend penalties"?‑‑‑I can't recall that specific question myself.

PN5712

You know that some time shortly after March 2018, the survey answers were analysed and a summary of results was provided or was accessible to PGA?‑‑‑I believe an initial analysis has been conducted but not a full analysis as yet.

PN5713

A salary survey in March 2018 would obviously include details of - I beg your pardon - have you been provided extracts of summary results of some of the questions?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART XXN MR DIXON

PN5714

Is it your understanding that the extract of those results was computed and provided to PGA by the external provider, SurveyMonkey?‑‑‑No, my understanding is the analysis of the data was conducted internally by the PGA.

PN5715

And you know now according to your answer that some number of months later - I'm sorry, did you have access to any of the answers yourself in relation to salary?‑‑‑I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. You mean for me to answer them or did - sorry, could you rephrase the question?

PN5716

I will. Did you see any of the responses to the answers to the question about the, you understand, salary range or base salary of members?‑‑‑I can't recall the specifics but as I indicated, a full analysis of the survey hasn't been concluded as yet.

PN5717

Yes, and are you able to tell the Commission why there was an analysis of a range of questions but that the base salary analysis, some four months later, have not been completed?‑‑‑No, I'm not familiar as to why we haven't completed the analysis yet other than to say that there's been competing priorities to complete the full analysis.

PN5718

Yes, it's a bit odd isn't it, Mr Stewart, that the critical question, the salary component, has just been left in abeyance for that considerable period of time?‑‑‑Well, that's your description, not mine.

PN5719

But you've got no explanation for why that analysis has not taken place?‑‑‑I recall providing a description a second ago. There's been competing priorities and the full analysis hasn't been completed as yet.

PN5720

And do you know why an analysis was not completed in relation to the answers in relation to penalty rates?‑‑‑What questions are you referring to?

PN5721

I asked you earlier about weekend penalty rates. You knew that there was a request made in the census for answers to whether employees were paid weekend penalty rates. Do you recall that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5722

And you've said you were aware of that question being part of the survey?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART XXN MR DIXON

PN5723

Yes, and have you seen the results of that survey in respect of penalty rates?‑‑‑My understanding is that something in the region of 40 per cent of our members' salaries is derived from weekend work therefore penalty rates have an impact on their overall salary, whether that's as a salaried employee or as an hourly rate employee. Penalty rates have an impact because of that 40 per cent total contribution from weekend work to their overall salary or to their hourly rate.

PN5724

Now Mr Stewart, my question was asked in relation to the survey. Is the Commission to take it that your answer that you have just given is based on the results of the survey?‑‑‑Yes I'm familiar with that component of the survey.

PN5725

Yes, I call for - is that in documentary form that you have seen?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5726

I call for the analysis.

PN5727

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What are you calling for?

PN5728

MR DIXON: Sorry, the document which analyses the percentage of employees who are paid weekend penalty rates in answer to question 13 of the survey.

PN5729

MR DOWLING: I think there's some confusion, if I can assist the Commission. The Commission might recall that Ms Crowe annexes the analysis, the total of the analysis that she says was done - sorry, my apologies. It's not annexed but it was asked for and provided.

PN5730

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: And it was in one of the tender bundles, wasn't it?

PN5731

MR DOWLING: Yes.

PN5732

MR DIXON: Yes, I follow. Thank you, I'm assisted by my friend.

PN5733

Can I ask you then to turn to paragraph 9 of your statement please, Mr Stewart?‑‑‑Yes, sir.

PN5734

And in paragraph 9 you refer to 640 members - sorry, clubs employ a minimum of one PGA professional. Do you see that?‑‑‑Correct. Yes.

PN5735

And when you used the phrase "employ" there are you making - some of those persons would be, of the 640 would be contractors would they?‑‑‑Yes, some of those 640 golf clubs that have a PGA professional onsite would contract a PGA professional who in turn employs PGA professionals themselves.

*** GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART XXN MR DIXON

PN5736

Well, let's just start at that. You mention 640 clubs, okay, and of the 640 clubs some would have persons contracted to them as a professional?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5737

And some of those contractors would not have one employee but would be the sole contractor to the club - sorry, the sole professional contracted to the club?‑‑‑Some, yes.

PN5738

Yes, and can you tell us what percentage would only of the 640 have a contracted professional?‑‑‑Just one? There would be - an estimate would be between 75 and 100 but I must reiterate that's an estimate.

PN5739

So you would estimate that of the 640 clubs that you mentioned there - and correct me if I didn't get this right - your estimate is that of those 640 somewhere between 75 and a hundred clubs would have one contracted professional only?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5740

And - - -

PN5741

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Just to be clear, we're talking about a contractor who does not employ anybody?

PN5742

MR DIXON: I was about to try and clarify that.

PN5743

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN5744

MR DIXON: Thank you.

PN5745

And that would be a contractor that does not employ anyone separately?‑‑‑Well, they'd employ other employees but more than likely potentially not PGA professionals. Not further PGA professionals, but all of them have employees.

PN5746

Yes, but not as PGA professionals?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5747

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So Mr Dixon, were you going to ask the follow-up question about how many of the 640 would engage a contractor who does employ other PGA professionals, so we can round out this?

PN5748

MR DIXON: Yes I will. Thank you, your Honour.

*** GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART XXN MR DIXON

PN5749

Mr Stewart, are you able to say of the 640 clubs that do employ a single - sorry, who do employ contractors, how many of those contractors employ other professionals?‑‑‑Well, there's about - there's approximately 250 contractors in Australia so I'd - so 150 to 175 would have employees - as PGA professional employees, I should say.

PN5750

And usually one?‑‑‑Sometimes multiple.

PN5751

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So Mr Stewart, does that leave us - I understand these are just estimates - with about 400 golf clubs who have a PGA professional in an employment relationship?‑‑‑I believe that would be a reasonable estimate.

PN5752

Thank you.

PN5753

MR DIXON: Thank you, your Honour. That is the cross‑examination.

PN5754

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, Ms Crowe any re‑examination?

PN5755

MR DOWLING: Your Honour, I wonder if I might before Ms Crowe answers that, with leave, ask one question. I appreciate - - -

PN5756

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No. I mean, the witness has just been cross‑examined by the other parties. It's not really open for a friendly party to then have another go.

PN5757

MR DOWLING: I was going to explain how it is I see my responsibility in this position.

PN5758

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN5759

MR DOWLING: But - - -

PN5760

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Go ahead. I cut you off.

*** GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART XXN MR DIXON

PN5761

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour. I appreciate the witness is called by a party with a common interest. Now as I understand my obligation in those circumstances, whilst I might be permitted to cross‑examine I shouldn't do so in a leading fashion at all and I should be very cautious about any question I ask but - - -

PN5762

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: And it should have occurred before Mr Dixon cross‑examined.

PN5763

MR DOWLING: It only arose out of something that was said in his cross‑examination. Perhaps I can identify the question, your Honour, and if your Honour is - I'm not sure if that's - - -

PN5764

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, what is the question?

PN5765

MR DOWLING: It's simply to clarify Mr Stewart gave some evidence about what he described as the minimum number of employee golf professionals. He gives some direct evidence about that in his statement and I thought the Commission might be assisted by reconciling the direct evidence about the issue and the evidence about the minimum.

PN5766

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, do you object to this question being asked, and if you then want to cross‑examine again I suppose you can.

PN5767

MR DIXON: I'm in the Commission's hands.

PN5768

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, I'll allow one question, Mr Dowling.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DOWLING [10.38 AM]

PN5769

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour.

PN5770

Mr Stewart, you were asked a question about the number of employee golf professionals, vocational golf professionals, and you said 850 to 900 at a minimum. That's the first half of my question. The second half is you say in your statement at paragraph 9 that there are 1,238 PGA professionals employed. Can you just reconcile those two bits of evidence for the Commission? Does that make sense?‑‑‑Sure, your Honour. So - - -

PN5771

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Just hold on, Mr Stewart.

*** GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART XXN MR DOWLING

PN5772

MR DIXON: Your Honour, I'm not sure that the witness should be permitted to do this because I understood his answers to be fairly clear in relation to the membership to start off with. But at the end of the day I don't want any confusion and so I ask permission to note my objection but leave it to the Commission.

PN5773

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think you'd better ask the question again Mr Dowling.

PN5774

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour.

PN5775

Can you still hear and see me clearly, Mr Stewart?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5776

I'll ask my question again and I apologise that it's a long one but I'm just trying to make sure everybody understands. You gave some evidence about the number of employee golf professionals. In answer to a question your answer was 850 to 900 at a minimum. Do you recall giving that evidence?‑‑‑Correct.

PN5777

You give some evidence in your statement about PGA professionals employed at clubs and the number there you give is 1,237. Can you just explain the difference between those two figures that you've given?‑‑‑So the 850 to 900 is PGA professionals who are more than likely employed under the Registered Licensed Clubs Award, and then there are other PGA professionals that are employed - - -

PN5778

MR DIXON: I think that - sorry - - -

PN5779

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No don't - it's too late, Mr Dixon. I'm not intending on having another objection.

PN5780

Just go ahead, Mr Stewart?‑‑‑And then there are - the remainder of those PGA professionals are more than likely employed by other PGA professionals who are contractors via the Amusement Events and Recreation Award.

PN5781

MR DOWLING: Thank you, Mr Stewart.

PN5782

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, Ms Crowe, do you have any questions of the witness?

PN5783

MS CROWE: No, your Honour.

*** GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART XXN MR DOWLING

PN5784

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, thank you for your evidence, Mr Stewart. You're excused and you're free to go?‑‑‑Thank you, your Honour.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.41 AM]

PN5785

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, who is the next witness?

PN5786

MS CROWE: Mr Kirkman is next, your Honour.

PN5787

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN5788

THE ASSOCIATE: Could you please state your full name and address?

PN5789

MR G KIRKMAN: Yes, Gavin John Kirkman (address supplied).

<GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN, SWORN [10.42 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS CROWE [10.42 AM]

PN5790

MS CROWE: Mr Kirkman, could you please tell the Commission your full name?‑‑‑Yes, Gavin Kirkman.

PN5791

What is your address?‑‑‑(Address supplied)

PN5792

What is your occupation?‑‑‑I'm the CEO of the PGA of Australia.

PN5793

Mr Kirkman, have you prepared a statement for the purposes of this proceeding?‑‑‑Yes I have.

PN5794

Do you have a copy of that statement with you?‑‑‑Yes I do.

PN5795

Is it nine paragraphs?‑‑‑Yes it is.

PN5796

Signed by you and dated on 17 May 2018?‑‑‑Yes it is.

PN5797

Are the contents of your statement true and correct?‑‑‑Yes they are.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XN MS CROWE

PN5798

I tender that statement.

PN5799

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So do you actually have it with you, Mr Kirkman?

WITNESS PROVIDED WITH HIS STATEMENT [10.42 AM]

PN5800

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Can you just confirm that's the statement in relation to which you just answered those questions?‑‑‑Yes it is.

PN5801

All right, the statement of Gavin Kirkman dated 17 May 2018 will be marked exhibit 43.

EXHIBIT #43 WITNESS STATEMENT OF GAVIN KIRKMAN DATED 17/05/2018

PN5802

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, Mr Dixon.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON [10.43 AM]

PN5803

MR DIXON: Thank you.

PN5804

Mr Kirkman, you've previously worked at golf clubs?‑‑‑Yes I have.

PN5805

And you've previously worked as a golf professional?‑‑‑No, not as a golf professional. As manager.

PN5806

Just manager. Were you never either an employee or a contractor to a golf club as a professional?‑‑‑No, at golf clubs just in management.

PN5807

Just in management, and do you have knowledge or experience about the number of professionals who work as contractors who are members of your organisation?‑‑‑Yes I do.

PN5808

And would a figure of about 67 per cent of golf professionals who work as contractors be reasonably accurate from your experience and view?‑‑‑Sixty seven per cent of?

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN5809

Golf professionals work as contractors?‑‑‑No, that's not - - -

PN5810

What, is it 50 per cent, 60 per cent?‑‑‑Well, we have 640 golf clubs around the country that employ one or more or contract one or more PGA professionals. So when you look at the number of golf clubs, yes, we've got in our vocational sector 1,600 members but they work in different roles. So not all are aligned to golf clubs.

PN5811

I see, and in your experience as manager have you managed a number of golf clubs?‑‑‑Yes, I've managed two golf clubs and - - -

PN5812

Which are they?‑‑‑Lakelands Golf Club on the Gold Coast and also Royal Pines Resort on the Gold Coast.

PN5813

Right, and in managing those golf clubs, that's Royal Pines on the Gold - is that the RACV Royal Pines?‑‑‑It is now.

PN5814

Yes, it's now that name?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5815

And you were a senior manager there?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN5816

You held that role for about four years?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5817

It had a golf course?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5818

It had a hotel?‑‑‑And a hotel.

PN5819

Luxury accommodation?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5820

Lounges, an executive lounge in the accommodation?‑‑‑It's part of the hotel, yes.

PN5821

Yes, a restaurant or more restaurants than one?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5822

More than one bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5823

And other forms of - a café?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN5824

A day spa?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5825

And whilst you were working at Royal Pines to your knowledge they employed in that organisation persons in the classifications of bar workers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5826

Kitchen attendants?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5827

Cooks?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5828

Front office workers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5829

Guest service workers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5830

Were there any childcare workers?‑‑‑Not - I worked at the resort twice but not during RACV. At that stage they would contract child - - -

PN5831

So when you were there, there were childcare workers on the premises but they were not employees. Is that right?‑‑‑My understanding is they were contractors.

PN5832

And it employed security staff?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5833

And persons described as leisure club attendants?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5834

And those persons to your knowledge as manager were covered by the Hospitality Award?‑‑‑Not under what award they were at that stage, because RACV went through change during my time there.

PN5835

Can you just repeat that answer please?‑‑‑Well, RACV, once they bought the facility.

PN5836

Yes?‑‑‑From the previous owner, they started changing the awards and the classifications during my time so I couldn't answer that question one hundred per cent.

PN5837

When you started, those persons we have just described were covered by the Hospitality Award as you understood the position?‑‑‑I understand that.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN5838

Yes, and you're aware, are you, that the RACV operates at the Cape Schanck Golf Club?‑‑‑Yes, they have a facility at Cape Schanck.

PN5839

And that's another golf resort operated by that organisation?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5840

Are you familiar with that golf resort?‑‑‑No, I've never had anything to do - we've got a tournament there but I've - not directly in operations.

PN5841

Right, and when you were at the - sorry, I withdraw that. Now you have knowledge, do you Mr Kirkman, of the fact that your organisation is always seeking to benchmark salaries of your members against other industries to ensure that you've got a good idea of what the salary ranges should be for professionals?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5842

And you're aware that in March this year a survey was carried out by your organisation for the purposes of obtaining data directed at the salaries or salary range of your members?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5843

And you're aware that the survey was concluded, I suggest to you, some time shortly after March 2018?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5844

And you're aware that there were reports prepared for your organisation concerning an analysis of some of the questions asked of the membership in the survey?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5845

And you obviously would, as in your position, be particularly keen to know as chief executive officer the salary range which was being sought in that survey for your members?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5846

Yes, and have you seen any analysis or have you been told of any details of the responses to the survey in respect of salary paid to members of your organisation?‑‑‑Not at this stage.

PN5847

When you say not at this stage, you had a discussion with people about the responses on that question?‑‑‑Yes, we have discussed it but we haven't at this stage, you know, got a full report. We haven't reported it to our board as yet.

PN5848

But you have discussed it and in that discussion you've been provided with information about the responses?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN5849

And from those - who provided you with that information?‑‑‑That's provided through our HR manager and our general manager of membership and education.

PN5850

So both - that's Ms Crowe is the HR manager?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5851

She has provided you with information about the responses to the salary review?‑‑‑At this stage it's just at high level - - -

PN5852

No, no, just stick with the question. She has provided you with information about the responses?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5853

And the - - -

PN5854

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So what information is that? Mr Kirkman, what information is she providing?‑‑‑Just the basic salary range from where - the position at the moment because we haven't carried out that survey for quite some time. So it's just, you know, the position of where our members in different roles are sitting within the market. So at this stage a very high overview without the detail on how we created that information.

PN5855

Thank you.

PN5856

MR DIXON: And what is the salary range that Ms Crowe reported to you?‑‑‑I don't have that here with me at the moment.

PN5857

It would be fair to say that from that report your knowledge was that there would be a range of salaries well above $60,000 paid to professionals?‑‑‑I can't comment without having the documentation here.

PN5858

So you have this in documentary form?‑‑‑We've got data from the survey.

PN5859

So, I may have misunderstood you, Mr Kirkman. I think you said you could - can you by looking at the data which you've said you don't have with you, answer that question? You have the data available to you now in order to - - -?‑‑‑We've got - - -

PN5860

In order to provide answers to the salary range of professionals who answered the survey?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN5861

And that data would be readily available to the Commission if you were asked to produce it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5862

And can you produce it by early next week, say Monday or Tuesday?‑‑‑I'm sure we can, yes.

PN5863

Yes, and that data will include as you understand it all the responses that were provided to your organisation in response to the questions asked of the members in the survey about their salary or base salary which they were being paid?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5864

I call, with the Commission's permission, for that data to be produced.

PN5865

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So just to be clear, what we're talking about is the actual answers which - is this a question of a particular number, Mr Dixon?

PN5866

MR DIXON: Question 15.

PN5867

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So what you have is the actual answers that people gave to question 15, but those answers haven't been analysed or collated yet. Is that where we're at?‑‑‑Yes, we've got all the data back. Just with our organisation the data will be analysed, put into a report format and we have a vocational members council within our organisation and that report was - will be delivered to the vocational members council.

PN5868

But what you have now is the raw data?‑‑‑Very raw, yes.

PN5869

Ms Crowe, is that data able to be produced?

PN5870

MS CROWE: Your Honour, Mr Kirkman is probably not aware that original data - - -

PN5871

MR DIXON: No, no.

PN5872

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Well - - -

PN5873

MR DIXON: Don't say if Mr Kirkman is aware or not aware.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN5874

MS CROWE: The data needs to be analysed by our CFO.

PN5875

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, no, it's not a question of asking for the analysis but just the raw data that is the answers to question 15.

PN5876

MS CROWE: Do we have the raw?

PN5877

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The raw data?

PN5878

MS CROWE: Yes we do.

PN5879

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, can that be produced in some format?

PN5880

MS CROWE: No it can't because we need our CFO to do that and he's overseas, as I said yesterday, for another four weeks.

PN5881

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So why do you need your CFO just to obtain the actual answers given to the survey?

PN5882

MS CROWE: Because they're all separate and I need him to analyse the data for me.

PN5883

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I don't think Mr Dixon is asking for an analysis. He's just asking for the answers to question 15.

PN5884

MS CROWE: I think there's approximately 480 different answers.

PN5885

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN5886

MS CROWE: And I'd have to compile that and I don't have the capacity to do that. I believe I could do it within, as I said yesterday, about six weeks with my workload.

PN5887

MR DIXON: I'm sorry, your Honour, the - - -

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN5888

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, so just hold on a second, Mr Dixon.

PN5889

MR DIXON: Sorry.

PN5890

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, where was that survey information that you took Ms Crowe to in cross‑examination?

PN5891

MR DIXON: It was in the - - -

PN5892

MR DOWLING: It was tab 9 of the cross‑examination bundle, your Honour, if that assists.

PN5893

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, hold on. So Ms Crowe, the survey has been conducted. You must have somewhere either in electronic or paper form the answers which people gave to question 15?

PN5894

MS CROWE: Yes we do in SurveyMonkey, your Honour. I can get - - -

PN5895

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Can you just not print that out?

PN5896

MS CROWE: No I can't because I actually tried to get into SurveyMonkey prior to this hearing and it won't allow me to copy and paste all of it so I actually have to go through each individual response by the member that has put their base salary in and put that into another document. Hence I can't - I've got no way of actually printing it out of SurveyMonkey, I'm sorry.

PN5897

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, well where does that leave us, Mr Dixon?

PN5898

MR DIXON: Can Mr Kirkman perhaps just step out for a moment so I can deal with the issue without him being present, if your Honour please? Your Honour, this witness has just said that he has access to the data, he can produce the data. He told the Commission as I understood it that he had seen data on this topic and if he has seen - - -

PN5899

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, he said he'd received information from Ms Crowe about the topic.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN5900

MR DIXON: Yes, but he also went on to say that he has the data available to him. He doesn't have it here to answer the question, and in my respectful submission that is sufficient to form a foundation for an order that that material be produced to the Commission and be produced promptly so that we can deal with it. The suggestion that a survey on salaries has produced all the other results but not the salary results is just beyond any credibility.

PN5901

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Kirkman, can you step outside for a short while please?

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.58 AM]

PN5902

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So what do you want to say in Mr Kirkman's absence, Mr Dixon?

PN5903

MR DIXON: No, I thought your Honour didn't want him to step outside so I said what I wanted to say. I thought your Honour wanted to raise something, I apologise.

PN5904

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, all right.

PN5905

MR DIXON: But, your Honour, this is just unbelievable that all the analysis is available except for the two critical issues.

PN5906

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Well, it's sitting on a computer screen. It's just a question of how you extract it, as I understand.

PN5907

MR DIXON: Yes, but this witness says that he has seen or has been told about data and he told us a moment ago that he had - - -

PN5908

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think the position as I understand, Mr Dixon, is this. The material is on a computer program. He has been told the range, in respect of question 15 he has been told the range - I assume that means the top and bottom salaries that those answers show. So the data is sitting there on a computer program. It's a question of how you extract it.

PN5909

MR DIXON: Yes.

PN5910

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: And I'm trying to get from Ms Crowe what the difficulty is in actually extracting it in a form that you can see it.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN5911

MR DIXON: I understand that.

PN5912

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That seems to be the issue.

PN5913

MR DIXON: That is but, your Honour - - -

PN5914

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: And whether Mr Kirkman knows how SurveyMonkey works or not, I don't know.

PN5915

MR DIXON: That's true, but there doesn't seem to have been any difficulty to produce the results in relation to the other questions except for 10 and - sorry, 13 and 15, the crucial ones and you also heard evidence from the previous witness, the witness that gave - Mr Unwin, and Mr Unwin's evidence was that SurveyMonkey could produce that analysis on each occasion.

PN5916

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: It can if you know how to work it.

PN5917

MR DIXON: But why can't that happen here? They produced the results - - -

PN5918

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think Ms Crowe will say that - - -

PN5919

MR DIXON: The platform produces the results and it doesn't seem to be all that complicated.

PN5920

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Crowe, do you want to give a further response to that?

PN5921

MS CROWE: Yes, your Honour. The survey was set up by our IT manager at the time, who is no longer with us. When the results came through in SurveyMonkey they show as two different ways. They show - firstly they can show us as a graph, a bar graph, or they show - if we are looking for individual responses they show as individual responses which is a scroll down bar. So when I'm talking about - I'd have to go through each individual one because we asked individually what the base salary was. There's no analysis in SurveyMonkey that I can take from that or even get an idea of the percentages because it doesn't - - -

PN5922

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We don't need to know percentages. We just need to know the answers to the question that were given.

PN5923

MS CROWE: And I'd have to go through each individual one, your Honour, and - - -

PN5924

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: And the entire file be copied electronically?

PN5925

MS CROWE: Yes. Your Honour, I was never asked for the raw data.

PN5926

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, I understand that.

PN5927

MS CROWE: I was asked for the analysis.

PN5928

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is it possible to provide Clubs Australia with an electronic copy of the entire file?

PN5929

MS CROWE: No it's not.

PN5930

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: It's not?

PN5931

MS CROWE: No it's not. What I would have to do is transfer that raw data into an Excel spreadsheet.

PN5932

MR DIXON: But the raw data is available and we would accept the raw data and also the bar graph which seems to have been provided by the platform. If we could be provided with a copy of that - - -

PN5933

MS CROWE: There's no bar graph for - of any kind.

PN5934

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, just talk one at a time, please. So just explain to me again, Ms Crowe, why can't you just print out the answers to question 15?

PN5935

MS CROWE: Because, your Honour, when you go into SurveyMonkey it's a scroll down. You can't actually - I can print it out but I will only get the first part of the actual scroll. I would have to scroll through over 450 and take either a screenshot or transfer the data. It doesn't actually list the - or it doesn't drop to 450 that I could actually print out because I have to go into each individual one. It only shows in SurveyMonkey a small section, perhaps the first seven, and then I'd have to scroll down again and go to the next seven. So that's the reason I can't actually give the raw data immediately.

PN5936

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So how long would it take you to go through the 400 and print out each answer?

PN5937

MS CROWE: Probably a week to transfer them over.

PN5938

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, well I think I've taken this as far as I can, Mr Dixon. If you want to apply for an order for production you can do so and we'll consider it.

PN5939

MR DIXON: I apply for an order for production - - -

PN5940

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: You'll have to set out precisely what you want and when it's to be produced by.

PN5941

MR DIXON: I will seek to do so, if your Honour please.

PN5942

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN5943

Can I ask perhaps someone from your side, Mr Dowling, to get Mr Kirkman back in?

PN5944

MR DOWLING: Yes, your Honour.

<GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN, RECALLED [11.04 AM]

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON, CONTINUING [11.04 AM]

PN5945

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, we'll just resume where we left off, Mr Kirkman.

PN5946

Mr Dixon?

PN5947

MR DIXON: Thank you, your Honour.

PN5948

Just a few more questions, Mr Kirkman. The head office of PGA is based at the Sandhurst Golf Club?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN5949

And it has two golf courses?‑‑‑Two 18 hole courses, yes.

PN5950

Yes, and both courses are championship golf courses?‑‑‑One more so than others, but one's called a championship course the other's a members' course.

PN5951

I see, and Sandhurst has a restaurant facility?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5952

A café facility?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5953

Members' bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5954

Function room?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5955

Sports centre?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5956

And is there a gym?‑‑‑There's a gymnasium, yes.

PN5957

Yes, and the sports centre has a tennis court?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5958

And a swimming pool?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5959

And some members of Sandhurst live adjacent to the courses, do they not?‑‑‑The members of the club?

PN5960

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5961

Are they part of the club facilities?‑‑‑The membership at Sandhurst is part of the residential membership so it's within their fees and body corporates. So when they bought residential, part of the original residential purchase included club membership.

PN5962

I see, and at Sandhurst Golf Club there are employed in those various facilities that you have described, bar workers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5963

Kitchen attendants?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN5964

Cooks?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5965

Front office workers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5966

Guest service workers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5967

Childcare workers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5968

Security staff?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5969

And leisure club attendants?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5970

And is it correct that the busiest time for Sandhurst is weekends?‑‑‑No, I wouldn't say that because, you know, we share a car park with them and the car park's full every day, so I wouldn't say it's weekends. That's my observation, but I'm not there every weekend.

PN5971

Sure. There are other golf resorts in Victoria that you are aware of, one being Melbourne Sandbelt - sorry, in the area known as the Melbourne Sandbelt?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5972

How many golf clubs?‑‑‑Under the Sandbelt category, I think there's seven, maybe eight.

PN5973

Yes?‑‑‑Because I think Kingswood Peninsula is within that Sandbelt group but not located in that area.

PN5974

Within your knowledge, each of those eight would have facilities and offerings similar to the kind that I asked you about in relation to Sandhurst Golf Club?‑‑‑No.

PN5975

The Kingston Health Golf Club would have restaurant facilities?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5976

Bar facilities?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5977

A café or bistro?‑‑‑All within the clubhouse, yes.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN5978

Members bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5979

Function room?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5980

Sports centre?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5981

Which of the eight that you mention would not have those sorts of facilities?‑‑‑When you're talking gymnasium, tennis court and all the rest, probably only Kingswood Peninsula would have all facilities. The rest are primarily golf clubs and the club facilities.

PN5982

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Would they all have a bar and some sort of restaurant or bistro?‑‑‑Within the clubhouse, yes, they do, yes, your Honour.

PN5983

MR DIXON: The Kingswood Golf Club has accommodation?‑‑‑Kingswood Peninsula, yes.

PN5984

Kingswood Peninsula. The Victoria Golf Club, which is in that group of eight, has accommodation facilities?‑‑‑Yes, they do.

PN5985

The Huntington Golf Club, which is amongst the eight, has a large function facility?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5986

That golf club has a restaurant, bars and other facilities of the kind we have just described?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5987

Do you know whether Kingswood has got a gym?‑‑‑No.

PN5988

Do you know or it does not?‑‑‑No, I don't know, sorry.

PN5989

You don't know?‑‑‑No.

PN5990

Can I ask you to turn, if you will, please, Mr Kirkman - just bear with me for a moment. Can I draw your attention to paragraph 9 of your statement. You there make reference to the 2013 National Golf Participation Report. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN5991

It is my understanding that that document was filed together with your statement; do you have knowledge of that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5992

Do you have a copy? Does the Commission have a copy of the 2013 National Golf Participation Report that was filed with that statement?

PN5993

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We don't. It wasn't filed with that statement.

PN5994

MR DIXON: It was not? Perhaps I may have leave to show Mr Kirkman a copy of a document.

PN5995

Is that the document you refer to in paragraph 9 of your statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5996

Can I ask you to turn to page 11. I'm sorry, I don't have a copy for the Commission, but we will make one available of the relevant passages. In that report, at page 11, there is a size profile of Australian clubs. Do you see that on page 11?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5997

You will see towards the bottom of the left-hand page one of the observations of that report said that approximately 50 per cent of the clubs with more than 1000 members are located in New South Wales. That was in 2013?‑‑‑Yes.

PN5998

Is that still, in your view, a key observation that one can make of clubs in New South Wales now?‑‑‑That would be based on membership data, that's registered members to golf clubs, and probably since 2103, membership has still decreased more.

PN5999

Has decreased more?‑‑‑Decreased, yes.

PN6000

That has been a constant trend throughout the country, has it, Mr Kirkman, that membership is decreasing?‑‑‑Yes, it's been decreasing probably for the last 10 years.

PN6001

Yes?‑‑‑That's full members of golf clubs, registered golf clubs, but, at the moment, the last report that Golf Australia, through the Industry Council, has put out, it is starting to stabilise and plateau because the clubs are changing their membership models.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN6002

But more so in some areas than other areas?‑‑‑Exactly.

PN6003

Victoria might be doing a little better than the rest of the country; is that right?‑‑‑Yes, I think it's up to the model of the golf club because in certain states, you've got more member clubs than public municipal golf courses, so it's really up to whether they are a full member club or whether they are a municipal golf course.

PN6004

You will see there's also in 2013 said as a key observation that 82 per cent of clubs in WA are less than 100 members in size. To your knowledge, that hasn't changed, has it?‑‑‑No.

PN6005

As of 2018, according to the trend, that might have got worse?‑‑‑Yes, and just with those clubs, some of them are only nine-hole courses as well, they are not full 18-hole courses.

PN6006

Can I then ask you to turn, if you will - I am just referring you to one page to make it easier for you to identify the next one that's not numbered - if you turn to page 21 and go over to the next page, which, in the left-hand column, talks about financial performance. Do you see that page in front of you? It also has Table 27 on it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6007

In the middle column at the bottom, there's a comment which says that the table, and that is a reference to Table 27:

PN6008

The table highlights that one in two clubs across Australia are classified as being under distress with over one quarter being at a point where continuing viability is being challenged.

PN6009

Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6010

Sorry, Mr Kirkman, do you see what I was referring to?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN6011

Just to make sure you understand, it's the last paragraph in the middle column?‑‑‑Yes, I've got it.

PN6012

You have got that? To your knowledge, that is still the position now in 2018, is it not?‑‑‑Yes, but can I say, when you say "under distress", my question when you say "under distress" and experience in the industry, what is distress?

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN6013

That comment below Table 27 is by reference to the definition of "distress" used in that report?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN6014

You are aware of that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6015

Using the same definition, which we will provide when we produce the report, on that measure of distress, you say that one in two clubs across Australia are classified as being under distress. That has not changed, in your view, in 2018?‑‑‑No, it hasn't changed, but if I can say, my definition of "distress" and why they are under distress is not probably relevant to resource and wages. It's up to the capital expense and the operation and the business model of the golf club.

PN6016

You take a view that you have got to include assets in assessing the position; is that your view?‑‑‑Yes, and the clubs that they're getting this information of are making decisions by volunteer boards.

PN6017

Yes?‑‑‑They are investing in incorrect parts of their business, so instead of operating the club into financial sustainability, unfortunately, we've got clubs out there that are putting the club's money and the grants they get into the wrong parts of the business. So, the industry is now trying to work with those clubs to remodel their business and take them out of financial distress by putting more money into resource and taking a proactive approach and not a reactive approach.

PN6018

Yes?‑‑‑So financial distress is not always going to come about resource and staffing, it's going to come about as a sustainable governance model that will then identify how the club can become sustainable and with that it's probably more to get the professional staff qualified to be working in golf clubs, and that's something that we're working collaboratively with Golf Australia and all the golfing bodies. So, financial distress isn't about pay rates and award rates, it's about the business model of the club, and that hasn't been highlighted in these reports. The data that's coming out, they are getting this data off a balance sheet at the end of the year of a golf club, and that's probably where we're becoming, as an industry now, to ensure that we're getting the business model right and getting the qualified people working in clubs to bring them back to sustainability.

PN6019

As I understand your response, you accept, Mr Kirkman, that there are still one in two clubs across Australia that are classified under the same basis as they are in relation to Table 27 as being under distress, but you say that efforts are being made through changing models to try and improve that situation? Is that the effect of the previous answer?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN6020

We are talking about that's the position in 2018 on your evidence?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6021

At the bottom of that same paragraph I read to you, it says:

PN6022

Over one quarter of clubs are at the point where continuing viability is being challenged.

PN6023

That was in 2013, according to that report. That position, in your view, still pertains in 2018?‑‑‑It still pertains, but from 2013, the golf industry is now out in those markets, working with those clubs and positioning qualified staff and resources into those facilities. Without having a current report, and again the distress is whether you've got a club that is making a profit at the end of the year that's gone into a debt to improve their facilities, upgrade a golf course, clubhouse, so, you know, the balance sheet is going to show that you have got a club and you've got great golf clubs here in New South Wales that have a debt of $6 million or $7 million but are making an annual profit to repay that debt. That's classified as financial distress and we've got many golf clubs that are in that category at the moment because they are rebuilding. So, Golf New South Wales, for this stage, has got a full-time staff member out there working with clubs to change the model and to get them to sustainability.

PN6024

Can I take you back to paragraph 7 of your statement. You stand by what you said in paragraph 7 in the first sentence, that that was the position in 2013?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6025

You say that in 2018 the position would be the same, in your view, in relation to 50 per cent of golf clubs in Australia being under financial distress, as tested in the National Golf Participation Report?‑‑‑Under the same testing of it, yes.

PN6026

And also in respect of the one quarter where viability is challenged using the same testing model, you stand by the view that that applies in 2018?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6027

Your Honour, we will seek to tender, and I will have copies made available, the 2013 National Golf Participation Report.

PN6028

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. You only need to copy those extracts, don't you?

PN6029

MR DIXON: That will probably be the simplest way of doing it, if your Honour pleases.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN6030

Can I then just ask you one other thing about golf courses. In your experience, Mr Kirkman, maintaining a golf course, the cost of maintaining a nine-hole golf course is obviously a very expensive exercise for any club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6031

Even more so for an 18-hole golf course?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6032

Are you able to say from your knowledge of managing clubs that to maintain an 18-hole golf course, would that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars per annum?‑‑‑It's up to the quality of the golf course and the design of the golf course.

PN6033

Yes?‑‑‑So when you maintain a golf course, you have got five surfaces, so you've got greens, tees, bunkers, fairways and roughs.

PN6034

Yes?‑‑‑So it's up to what you want to deliver as a golf course. Royal Sydney would maintain a golf course with up to 30 staff and have a budget of much more than a couple of hundred thousand dollars, but it's up to the model of the golf course.

PN6035

Yes?‑‑‑You normally build your golf course maintenance around your revenue and then you build your resources from there, and probably, to give an example, Lakelands Golf Club that you asked me that I managed, we opened that with 18 maintenance staff and that golf course, yes, 21 years later, is being maintained by eight staff, but equipment has changed as well, so the modern day technology and equipment will allow you to mow and look after your surfaces differently.

PN6036

Some golf clubs would be in the mid-range of the quality of the courses that would be provided?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6037

And sort of mid-range golf course in quality, maintaining those facilities associated with what is the playing and associated areas also well above $200,000?‑‑‑Yes, up to, yes, 200, and, again, it comes back to grass species as well, whether you want pure grass without herbicide or whether you want a mixture of grass species.

PN6038

I was asking you there perhaps about an 18-hole course. A nine-hole course still well over $100,000 to maintain a reasonable playing area?‑‑‑Probably just over a hundred thousand. I'm a country member of a nine-hole golf course in country Queensland and the maintenance is just over $100,000. Again it comes back to the design of the golf course.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN6039

Those sorts of costs are very significant, are they not, for golf courses to survive?‑‑‑They are significant, but, you know, that's where you've got your smaller clubs having voluntary staff that are going through OH&S programs, safe operating procedures, so they can give their time and look after the surfaces. It's again the model of the golf club, and this is where the industry is out working with those facilities.

PN6040

If the Commission pleases, that is the cross-examination.

PN6041

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Do you have any questions in re-examination? Sorry.

PN6042

COMMISSIONER HAMPTON: Mr Kirkman, you gave some evidence about Royal Pines and a couple of other facilities that you described as resorts. I understand from your evidence that you were describing resorts and differentiating them according to the facilities they provide, accommodation and other facilities. Firstly, have I understood that distinction correctly?‑‑‑Yes, the model of a golf club that is purely a club, the modern golf club or the current golf club will have food and beverage, administration, golf operations and course maintenance, or agronomy, so that's just a golf course without a resort or accommodation attached. A resort - - -

PN6043

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Are we talking there about a club with a membership model?‑‑‑Exactly. A resort course, which, you know, there's quite a few around the country, I classify them as a resort course, so they've got a hotel, accommodation on site, spa, gymnasium, restaurants and so forth and they are more under a resort model. They could have a small membership base within that facility, you know, for residents or locals or even a corporate membership base, but they are running under a different operation model.

PN6044

COMMISSIONER HAMPTON: That's helpful. Do you know anything about the liquor licensing arrangements that might apply to a resort as against a golf club?‑‑‑At Royal Pines at one stage, I held the liquor licence for a small period through a transition, so it was identical to when I was working at Lakelands, I went and did the same exam and we just held the liquor licence, and at a golf facility, you need the liquor licence to allow when you can - to get extended to be able to sell food and beverage on the golf course, alcohol on the golf course, you know, through the drink cart or the beverage carts. But they were identical. What I did at Lakelands was identical to what I did at the resort. The operating hours were a lot longer at the resort.

PN6045

But does that mean that there was no such thing as a resort licence?‑‑‑No, they were both the same licence, yes.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN XXN MR DIXON

PN6046

Thank you.

PN6047

MR DIXON: May I just ask one last question?

PN6048

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN6049

MR DIXON: Mr Kirkman, those resort courses are available across the country, you said, in every state, the resource facilities?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6050

Is that a trend that is growing in your experience, that more resorts are being created to attract memberships and golfers from all over the world?‑‑‑No, I don't think it's a trend. On the Gold Coast, I think there's too many and they are more or less trying to change them a little bit now. It used to be the mecca of resort courses, golf carts and so forth, but on the Sandbelt, when you're talking a resort course, the Sandbelt, you can't have a resort golf experience because if you want to drive in a golf cart, you need a doctor's certificate. So a resort course experience compared to, you know, the east coast of America and going to China and so forth is all about the experience, carts, caddies and so forth, so I don't think it's growth. There is a niche market here in Australia under Golf Tourism. I think we are working with the facilities we have more so than creating new facilities.

PN6051

Thank you.

PN6052

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any questions in re-examination, Ms Crowe?

PN6053

MS CROWE: Yes, your Honour.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS CROWE [11.29 AM]

PN6054

MS CROWE: Mr Kirkman, you were asked about clubs in distress. What can you say about where geographically they might be located?‑‑‑Primarily regional. The clubs, and even with our membership, to get our members to go out regional where the clubs, you know, have got volunteer boards and are relying on grants and the operating model and not getting enough support from the industry, it's primarily regional clubs, and we know that by our membership, to the extent that we have members who are based at one golf club that will go and service the club, so they will go and visit clubs in Central Queensland, they will go out to Mt Isa and Dysart and Blackwater and go out and offer one month of service to help grow and promote the game, so that's what our members are doing, but primarily regional.

*** GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN RXN MS CROWE

PN6055

Nothing else, your Honour.

PN6056

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thanks for your evidence, Mr Kirkman, you are excused and you are free to go?‑‑‑Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.30 AM]

PN6057

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, just one more attempt to resolve this issue about the survey. Did you want just the range of salaries, that is, the top and the bottom, or do you want all the data?

PN6058

MR DIXON: Of course, your Honour, it's not very meaningful if you have one person that's paid at $200,000 and one person paid at $10,000, so - - -

PN6059

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: If the answer is "No", that's fine.

PN6060

MR DIXON: I will endeavour to be as specific as I can when we have had a chance to - we will attend to that straight after lunch because the formulation of the order might just take a little time for precision.

PN6061

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, thank you. We might take a short morning tea adjournment now before the next witness. Before we have to hear an application order, can I encourage your side to confer with Ms Crowe to see if there is some practical way to resolve this difficulty?

PN6062

MR DIXON: I am going to consult and deal with that issue.

PN6063

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, all right, we will adjourn for approximately 10 minutes.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.31 AM]

RESUMED [11.47 AM]

PN6064

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So we'll administer the oath or affirmation to Mr Wright, please.

<TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT, AFFIRMED [11.47 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR ARNOLD [11.47 AM]

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6065

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Right, Mr Arnold.

PN6066

MR ARNOLD: Yes, thank you, your Honour.

PN6067

Mr Wright, for the record, can you please state your full name and address, please?‑‑‑Yes, Timothy James Wright, (address supplied).

PN6068

Have you prepared a statement in relation to this matter that's before the Commission?--Yes, I have a statement, yes.

PN6069

Is that statement dated 10 May 2018?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN6070

It has 13 paragraphs?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN6071

It's signed by you and witnessed by Wendy Fargo, is that correct?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN6072

You have a copy of that witness statement with you currently?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN6073

Is that witness statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN6074

I tender that document, your Honour.

PN6075

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, the statement of Timothy James Wright, dated 10 May 2018, will be marked exhibit 44.

EXHIBIT #44 STATEMENT OF TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT DATED 10/05/2018

PN6076

MR ARNOLD: Thank you, your Honour.

PN6077

Just in relation to your statement, Mr Wright - - -

PN6078

MR DIXON: Just, your Honour - - -

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6079

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, just hold on, Mr Arnold. Are there objections?

PN6080

MR DIXON: There are, your Honour. We have just handed to your Honour's associate.

PN6081

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We've just got some objections, yes.

PN6082

MR DIXON: I withdraw the objection to paragraph 7, your Honour.

PN6083

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN6084

MR DIXON: The second objection is to the second sentence of paragraph 9.

PN6085

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I'll admit that sentence.

PN6086

MR DIXON: And the whole of paragraph 13.

PN6087

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, I'll admit that paragraph.

PN6088

PN6089

MR DIXON: If your Honour pleases.

PN6090

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Arnold.

PN6091

MR ARNOLD: Yes, thank you, your Honour.

PN6092

Mr Wright, just in relation to your statement, just a couple of questions in addition to that. You're the general manager Greenbank RSL Services Club, is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN6093

You're also a director of the Queensland RSL and Services Clubs Association, is that correct?‑‑‑Board member, yes, yes.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6094

At Greenbank RSL Services Club, how many staff do you have there?‑‑‑Approximately 120 direct staff.

PN6095

How many of that 120 are managers?‑‑‑Four senior managers and four junior managers, so a management team of eight.

PN6096

When you say "junior managers", can you clarify or classify junior managers?‑‑‑Duty, sorry, duty managers. So they're basically in control of the operation of the club on a day-by-day basis.

PN6097

Those managers' terms and conditions of employment, are they determined by the Registered and Licensed Clubs Award provisions?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct. They're all based on the Registered and Licensed Clubs Award.

PN6098

At the Greenbank RSL Club, you have contract caterers in your restaurants?‑‑‑Yes, we have a contract caterer that operates a buffet restaurant and we run all the other food outlets in the venue. It's one contractor for one restaurant, yes.

PN6099

Are you able to provide the name of that contractor?‑‑‑Yes, the contractor is Char Catering Pty Ltd Qld and they base their employment terms on the same award that we do.

PN6100

That was going to be my next question. The terms and conditions are the Registered and Licensed Clubs Awards for employees of that contractor, is that right?

PN6101

MR DIXON: I object to the question, sorry. That is a leading question and it's not an accurate statement of the coverage of the Restaurant Industry Award, if the Commission pleases.

PN6102

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Restaurant Industry Award?

PN6103

MR DIXON: All the interrelationship between - I am sorry, your Honour, I - - -

PN6104

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I thought the witness was simply indicating that the contract caterer applied the Clubs Award. Was that the evidence you just gave?‑‑‑Yes, that's right. That's correct.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6105

What's the objection to that?

PN6106

MR DIXON: If the answer is simply that that's what the contractor does, that doesn't mean that that's what the coverage is. My objection is this witness can't whether that - - -

PN6107

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: He didn't say that. He said that the caterer applies the Registered and Licensed Clubs Award.

PN6108

MR DIXON: I'm indebted, your Honour.

PN6109

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, go ahead, Mr Arnold.

PN6110

MR ARNOLD: Yes, I have no further questions in examination-in-chief, thank you, your Honour.

PN6111

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Mr Dixon? Sorry. Mr Dixon.

PN6112

MR DIXON: Your Honour, I just need a few moments. I have mislaid my note because during the break I went and followed up the other issue. Would you bear with me just for a moment while I find it?

PN6113

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes. It must be there somewhere. I am sure you can extemporise, Mr Dixon.

PN6114

MR DIXON: I'm not as good as some others on that.

PN6115

MR DOWLING: Your Honour, I'm happy to fill some time. We were asked in respect of the cross-examination bundle that was shown to Ms Crowe, whether we objected to tab 6, 7, 8 and 9 of that bundle being tendered and we have no objection to those documents being tendered.

PN6116

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, thank you.

PN6117

MR DOWLING: I think that's all I can add.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6118

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Would you like a short adjournment, Mr Dixon?

PN6119

MR DIXON: I'm terribly embarrassed. If I could, can I just say something in response to what Mr Dowling said. We will try and arrange for that material to be electronically circulated to everybody.

PN6120

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, which material?

PN6121

MR DIXON: The cross-examination bundle in respect of all of the tender material that Mr Gotting with: Unwin, Crowe. He identified passages that he would seek to tender.

PN6122

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN6123

MR DIXON: We will try and consolidate that and provide it.

PN6124

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. So, Mr Wright, we're just going to have to adjourn for a short period. Can I just ask you to stay more or less where you are and we'll get back as soon as possible.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.54 AM]

RESUMED [11.57 AM]

PN6125

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon.

PN6126

MR DIXON: I'm indebted to the Commission. I attribute it to age and long hours, if the Commission pleases. Thank you.

PN6127

Mr Wright, my name is Dixon and I appear for Clubs Australia Industrial. Are you able to hear me?‑‑‑Yes, loud and clear.

PN6128

Thank you. Now, how many members does RSL and Services Clubs of Queensland have?‑‑‑I think the approximate number would be about 65 RSL clubs in Queensland from what I understand to be about 90 RSL clubs in total.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6129

Is it your understanding that if you are a member of the RSL and Services Clubs of Queensland, those members are not members of Clubs Queensland?‑‑‑No, that's not correct. It's entirely to the choice of the individual chubs whether they join both associations or no association.

PN6130

So in your view, would there be a number of the 65 who are also members of Clubs Queensland?‑‑‑There would be some members that would be members of both organisations. There would be some very large RSL clubs that are not members of Clubs Queensland.

PN6131

So the proportion of the 65 that are members of Clubs Queensland could be quite - what would you estimate? 20, 30 per cent or more of the 65?‑‑‑I would have no access to that information. We're not members of Clubs Queensland personally and from my understanding, there are less and less clubs remaining as members of Clubs Queensland.

PN6132

You have over 20 years' experience working in management in the clubs industry, is that correct?‑‑‑In excess of 22 years, yes.

PN6133

You have seen over that period a growth in the size of some clubs in Queensland?‑‑‑Natural growth, yes.

PN6134

Can you give us examples of clubs that have grown in a significant way in your experience in Queensland?‑‑‑Well, there's a variety of clubs, not just RSL clubs, but football clubs, AFL clubs, surf clubs. Most clubs now are diversifying their business because of the difficulty in the traditional form of trade where now we're sort of adding other facilities to try and generate a multi-faceted approach.

PN6135

That diversification that you refer to has been quite a significant change especially in the last eight to 10 years in your experience?‑‑‑Eight to 10 years is a long time. I'd probably say the last three to four years. As much as growth, there is as much consolidation, though, with small clubs failing.

PN6136

As part of that diversification that you referred to in the last three or so years, you have seen improvements in food offerings from clubs across Queensland?‑‑‑Food is a major competitive advantage or disadvantage, whichever way you look at it, so that is part of the business, not the entire business.

PN6137

You have seen in the last three or four years as part of the diversification improvements in the scope and quality of food offerings at clubs?‑‑‑Yes, you could say that, yes.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6138

Some restaurants at clubs compete for fine dining awards in Queensland, for example?‑‑‑Not to my knowledge.

PN6139

I want to ask you some questions in relation to - sorry, let me just go back one. Of the large clubs that you refer to, are the larger clubs, in particular, diversifying their businesses to take account of the changes that you have identified occurring in the last three to four years?‑‑‑I wouldn't wholly say. The struggling smaller clubs generates interest from the larger clubs to get bigger and more competitive. I think it's just the nature of the business itself. Whether it's a progressive board. Whether the clubs actually own the property that they're situated as opposed to leasehold property. So there are many, many factors as to the direction forward for each individual club.

PN6140

Of the 65 members that you have with your organisation, are there are a number of struggling smaller clubs?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN6141

What sort of figure would you put on the smaller struggling clubs of the 65?‑‑‑I wouldn't have accurate figures, so I'd only be making an estimation there.

PN6142

But your estimation would be quite a significant number?‑‑‑I'd say no more than 10 per cent would be in a struggling position.

PN6143

Your association, does it have an executive or board?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN6144

What do you call it? An executive or a board?‑‑‑A board.

PN6145

A board?‑‑‑We have a CEO that's a CEO appointed by the board and an executive committee and two additional board members.

PN6146

So how many? How many positions in total?‑‑‑I think there's approximately six or seven positions on the board of the RSL Association of Queensland.

PN6147

Are you a member of the board?‑‑‑Yes, I am, that's correct.

PN6148

You have given evidence, you have some training in hospitality, do you not, Mr Wright, qualifications that you've studied over a period of time?‑‑‑Yes, I started my career doing a Bachelor of Business in Hospitality Management, which I deferred after seeking what I considered at the time a fairly good position. But then I've subsequently completed diplomas and advanced diplomas, yes.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6149

Those studies included both hospitality generally, including hotels and other hospitality outlets or businesses?‑‑‑Yes, hospitality management, all encompassing.

PN6150

All-encompassing of that industry as a whole, not confined to clubs?‑‑‑Hospitality in general, yes.

PN6151

Your association, does it have quarterly meetings of members?‑‑‑Yes, we have a monthly board meeting and quarterly members' meetings, yes.

PN6152

In February of 2017, do you recall that there was a meeting of members of your association?‑‑‑I'd have to check back on the dates, but we have regular members' meetings and I think the February meeting we're referring to may have been at Sherwood Services Club in Brisbane.

PN6153

Your Honour, with the video link, we've tried to make some arrangements and I think the associate there may have a tender bundle, if I may.

PN6154

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, might the bundle be provided to the witness, please. Is that a loose bundle of the documents the witness has, is it, by the looks of things?

PN6155

SPEAKER: Yes, your Honour, there's two documents. One document consists of about 50 pages and the second document is approximately four pages.

PN6156

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, thank you.

PN6157

MR DIXON: May I address the associate just to identify that again?

PN6158

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Well, the witness has them now, so - - -

PN6159

MR DIXON: May I ask the witness?

PN6160

Mr Wright, the tender bundle you have, does it contain a copy of your CV?‑‑‑I'm just flicking through it now. This is the first time I've seen this, but the first few pages is my CV, yes, that's correct.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6161

Right, behind tab 1.

PN6162

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I don't think he has tabs. Mr Wright, are the pages numbered in the bottom right-hand corner?‑‑‑Yes, they are, yes.

PN6163

MR DIXON: Do you have a page numbered one with: "Timothy Wright, Personal and Professional Profile"?‑‑‑Yes, I do, that's correct.

PN6164

Would you then please turn to page 10? I think I must have - I don't know whether Mr Arnold has a copy of this.

PN6165

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Arnold, do you have a copy of these documents?

PN6166

MR ARNOLD: Not at the moment. I'm about to, I think.

PN6167

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Let's have a look, all righ.t

PN6168

MR ARNOLD: Thank you.

PN6169

MR DIXON: Thank you, your Honour.

PN6170

Now, would you turn, please, to page 10 of that document folder or bundle you have, Mr Wright?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6171

Do you identify the document that starts numbered page 10, headed: "Minutes of a quarterly meeting of the RSL and Services Clubs Association held at the Sherwood Services Club on 28 February 2017"?‑‑‑Yes, that is correct.

PN6172

Is it correct that those are the minutes of the meeting that was held at that venue on 28 February 2017?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN6173

Can I ask you to look at those minutes at page 10 and draw your attention to the recording of attendees under the heading, "Present", on page 10. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6174

Is it correct that the persons there mentioned in the first line, "M Robbins and J Walters, Diggers", were representatives of the Diggers Club attending that meeting?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN6175

So when we look at that minute and you go through and I invite you to count, it appears that there were 10 clubs represented by the persons listed prior to the names, so that you've got diggers followed by Greenbank RSL and so on. Do you agree with that?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN6176

How many of the persons there represented are, if any, board members of the association?‑‑‑There are five plus the CEO of the RSL Association.

PN6177

So by that, you are leaving your name out - your own position out?‑‑‑No, no, I included myself in the five, yes.

PN6178

So there are five and who are the five?‑‑‑Maree Robbins, myself, Tim Wright, Gordon Armstrong from Currumbin RSL, Paul Burton, Southport RSL, and Penny Wilson, the CEO of the RSL Association of Queensland.

PN6179

So the 10 clubs there are out of the total club number of, I think you said, approximately 65?‑‑‑Yes, unfortunately, not every club will attend the quarterly meeting. However, these minutes - these minutes were circulated to all club members or, sorry, all members.

PN6180

If you just stick with the question, please, Mr Wright. Now, you will see on the second page of that document, page 11, there is a heading, "United Voice and FW decision", do you see that?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN6181

Was it your responsibility to keep these minutes?‑‑‑Sorry?

PN6182

Was it your responsibility to record the proceedings of that meeting in minutes?‑‑‑No, I am not - I am not the secretary.

PN6183

So do you know why the heading is: "United Voice and FWC decision"?‑‑‑Yes, if you read the minutes in their entirety, you'll notice that they are just matters of importance that we raise to our members for a briefing and updating.

PN6184

So that there is discussion at that meeting about the alternatives that flowed from the Full Bench's decision on the penalty rates case, is that your recollection?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6185

The alternatives that were nominated by the Full Bench in its decision that were options available to address the issues raised in the Clubs Award concerning penalty rates. That was the subject of some discussion?‑‑‑Yes, the discussion would have been a summary of what was happening in the Fair Work Commission as well as a summary of what was relevant to clubs pending the decision that was made.

PN6186

It's recorded there in the third paragraph under the heading, "United Voice", there was further discussion ensued. The view of the meeting was to take a public stand in support of maintaining current penalty rates after consultation with members that are not present at this meeting. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN6187

Then there was a motion put by Mr Armstrong, seconded by Mr Burton, that this association write to members advising that this meeting supports the retention of current penalty rates for four employees and seeks their support after which the association will make this publicly known by a suitably worded press release and we can take it from that that that was a decision taken by the 10 - it was carried by those in the meeting where the 10 clubs attended. Do you accept that?‑‑‑I do accept that after clarification of the previous paragraph where it says: "After consulting with members that are not present at this meeting."

PN6188

I suggest to you that that relates, Mr Wright, to the public stand in support of maintaining penalty rates. That sentence does not touch on the motion. The motion was a decision to write to members advising them that the retention of rates for our employees should be maintained. Nothing to do with further consultation. Do you accept that?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN6189

The motion put was not qualified in any way by further consultation. Do you accept that?‑‑‑As written.

PN6190

I beg your pardon?‑‑‑I accept that as written, yes.

PN6191

The minutes then record that you said that apart from anything else, can we take it that you were now commenting about the motion that had just been passed?‑‑‑Correct.

PN6192

You were saying, in effect, that apart from anything else, the effect of what you were saying is that supporting the retention of current penalty rates would allow RSL and services clubs to be seen as "employers of choice"?‑‑‑Yes, I accept that.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6193

In doing so, you were seeing the retention of current penalty rates as an opportunity to set your organisation and its club members as in a separate and distinct group as opposed to other clubs in Queensland?‑‑‑There was a very limited response coming from Clubs Queensland and our decision on behalf of the RSL Association was to set a position that our members were supportive of.

PN6194

You wanted to use this as a means of promoting your organisation, were you not?‑‑‑As being a good community citizen looking after our staff, that's correct.

PN6195

You will see further on there is a reference to something that Mr Arnold said on that page and Mr Arnold then made mention of HR Central which is an online HR solution designed to assist employers in consolidating policies and procedures. Do you recall Mr Arnold saying that?‑‑‑Yes, that was discussed at the meeting.

PN6196

Was this being raised as you understood it with a view to encouraging members to use HR Central to deal with all industrial matters, policies and procedures, HR solutions and the like?‑‑‑If you're saying that it was requesting all RSL clubs to use that product, no. It was a submission or a presentation from Brett about a new product that was available if members did choose to have that discussion with him about that.

PN6197

It was, though, being raised to advise the association at that meeting that Mr Arnold would be happy to speak further to any managers that may be interested in this product. I take it that he told you that that was a product which would be beneficial to members in understanding their award and human resources obligations?‑‑‑On top of that, also being consistent with policies and procedures and making sure that we keep those updated.

PN6198

So it was your understanding that this was a tool that you would be advising members was available to them to assist them in complying with their award and other obligations including policy consistency?‑‑‑I wouldn't say completely award compliance, but just basically with just general housekeeping for all organisations to make sure that they are above what's required.

PN6199

Under general business it is said that you mentioned a proposed increase in Foxtel services fees. Having Foxtel services in clubs is in your view needed to compete with pubs in the vicinity which have such facilities?‑‑‑It's one of the many tools that we use to provide entertainment to our members.

PN6200

I will seek in due course to tender that if the Commission pleases.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6201

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Are you finished with the minutes, Mr Dixon?

PN6202

MR DIXON: Yes, your Honour.

PN6203

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Wright, just on page 11, the reference to consulting with members, were there any further steps taken to consult with members about the two options from the penalty rates decision after the meeting?‑‑‑The circulation to members was basically sort of seeking industry support for the motion that was moved at the meeting, that the position of the meeting was to support penalty rates in their current format. A communication was a circular to all club members seeking their similar support and that was done through the CEO.

PN6204

But was there any further opportunity given to clubs not at the meeting to express a view one way or the other about whether they supported the option of abolishing the Clubs Award?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct. Every member club is given the opportunity to respond to the CEO with either objection or support for that position. I don't have the details of that with me, but I'm not aware of any club that opposed that position.

PN6205

Did anybody not at the meeting communicate support for the proposition?‑‑‑Many clubs lend their support to the position that the board took, yes.

PN6206

Right, thank you.

PN6207

MR DIXON: Greenbank RSL is located in Hillcrest in Queensland?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN6208

It's recently undergone a significant redevelopment?‑‑‑A refurbishment, I would say, as opposed to a redevelopment. We're just basically fixing up a lot of long-term issues we have with the building.

PN6209

It has a café?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN6210

It has a bistro?‑‑‑A buffet restaurant.

PN6211

What do you understand a bistro to be?‑‑‑A bistro is either a combination of à la carte or pre-prepared food on offering where a buffet is all you can eat.

PN6212

But the bistro, it's actually entitled, "Grange Bistro", is it not?‑‑‑I interpret that as Grange Buffet. My apologies if it's listed in another fashion.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6213

The name is Grange Bistro, is it not, Mr Wright?‑‑‑It should actually be Grange Buffet.

PN6214

Is the name of the food servicing entity where you can go and consume those meals called Grange Bistro?‑‑‑No, it's called the Grange Buffet.

PN6215

It has a bar, the club?‑‑‑The club does, yes.

PN6216

Or more than one bar?‑‑‑There's definitely more than one bar.

PN6217

It has a bottle shop?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN6218

Gaming machines?‑‑‑Yes, we do.

PN6219

Offers entertainment?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN6220

Live music?‑‑‑That's the entertainment that we do offer, yes.

PN6221

Live shows?‑‑‑Live entertainment, yes.

PN6222

There are other hotels in the same area as Greenbank RSL that offer similar services to those that I have just describe, do they not?‑‑‑Yes, I wouldn't restrict that just to local hotels. You know, we have a large number of competitors both in the club and hotel sector that all offer very, very similar services.

PN6223

I think you have stated that you have a great saturation of hotels in your immediate catchment area. That's your view, is it not?‑‑‑We certainly do.

PN6224

I'm sorry?‑‑‑Yes, we have. We have a larger than average percentage of hotel competitors on our doorstep than most other larger RSL clubs do on the north of Brisbane.

PN6225

A number of them are what you describe as multinationals operated by Coles and Woolworths?‑‑‑Yes, there are Coles and Woolworths. There's also Maguires who operate approximately 10 hotels, Fitzy's with multiple hotels. So there is a very large competitive nature in our environment, yes.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6226

Within that saturation you've referred to, would you put the pub/tavern Greenbank in that category?‑‑‑They would probably be one of the lower competitors in our immediate catchment.

PN6227

What about Kensington Tavern?‑‑‑Again, down the bottom of the list in terms of competitors.

PN6228

Forest Lake Tavern?‑‑‑Again, that's a fair distance from the club, so our immediate threat or major competitors are Brown Plains Hotel, Calamvale Hotel, the Marsden, the Queenslander and Park Ridge Hotel, Park Ridge Tavern.

PN6229

Each of those that you've just mentioned would compete with you for services of the kind that we discussed earlier, the provision of food, bar services, bottle shop, gaming machines, entertainment and the like?‑‑‑That is correct, as well as other - other, I suppose, facilities that we cannot provide in terms of detached bottle shops, takeaway liquor in a larger scale and accommodation.

PN6230

Those dealt mainly with hotels, did they not, Mr Wright? Are there pubs close by in this area that you call saturated with competition?‑‑‑Pubs are hotels, yes.

PN6231

I understand?‑‑‑Sorry, when I say "hotels", they are licensed hotels or pubs, I'm not talking about accommodation hotels.

PN6232

Does Greenbank RSL have a function centre?‑‑‑We have a function room, that's correct.

PN6233

A function room. Is that part of the refurbished development or have you had it for some time?‑‑‑The club has always had a function room.

PN6234

How big is the function room?‑‑‑I'm sorry, I missed that question.

PN6235

How large is that function room? How many people - - -?‑‑‑A capacity of 250.

PN6236

What is it used for?‑‑‑Thirteen out of the 14 sessions per week, which, as I say, day time, night time sessions, so 13 out of 14 sessions hold bingo with one session per week available for functions such as weddings and parties and events.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6237

I stand corrected, Mr Wright, I notice that I was wrong in suggesting that the outlet was called Grange Bistro; I accept it was Grange Buffet. I apologise for that. Can I ask you then to turn to paragraph 10 of your statement. You there refer to competition, a high degree of competition from other clubs. Is that because you have the presence of all these other outlets in the immediate vicinity where you operate the club?‑‑‑Yes, there is a large competitor base.

PN6238

Are you familiar with Brothers Leagues Club in Ipswich?‑‑‑Very familiar, seeing I was there for 13 years.

PN6239

It is part of the Brothers Group?‑‑‑They're all individually incorporated associations, so they're not intrinsically linked to other Brothers clubs throughout Queensland but they are a part of a confraternity.

PN6240

Is that club a member of your association?‑‑‑No, they are a rugby league club. Predominantly we are RSL clubs.

PN6241

You know that it also has bars?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN6242

An outlet called Shamrock's Restaurant?‑‑‑I'm not aware of the current names. I've been gone for seven and a-half/eight years, so I'm not aware of what the current names are.

PN6243

When you were there, it had a cafe?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN6244

It had gaming machines?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN6245

A function centre?‑‑‑A function room, yes.

PN6246

Were there other hotels and pubs in Ipswich providing similar services?

PN6247

MR ARNOLD: I'm sorry, I object to the question. We are now heading down another path where Mr Wright is giving evidence about another club, which he hasn't been there for some time, and he's also talking about another area. It's a bit hard for the Commission to gather information based on information that may not be available to Mr Wright.

PN6248

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I will allow the question.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6249

MR DIXON: Mr Wright, I had asked you a question about when you were at Brothers Leagues Club. You identified a range of food and other offerings available at that club and, to your knowledge, at the time, did other hotels and pubs in Ipswich offer bar facilities?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct. The level of competitors, though, is far reduced to what we experience at Greenbank.

PN6250

Can we take it from that that the competition in Greenbank that you face against pubs and hotels is a very significant matter and challenge for your club?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN6251

Do you also compete for gaming revenue?‑‑‑We most certainly do.

PN6252

When your gaming revenue declines, it is obviously a very significant factor imposing stresses on your operating costs?‑‑‑A lot less risk in 2018 compared to prior years. I've worked very, very hard to reduce the reliance on gaming revenue for our business, reducing it from 82 per cent down to 65 per cent.

PN6253

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Who are your main competitors for gaming revenue?‑‑‑We have three of the top 10 hotels in Queensland within 10 kilometres of our venue, which is very severe competition.

PN6254

Thank you. In Queensland, what is the extent to which pubs can have gaming machines?‑‑‑Pubs are capped at a maximum of 45 machines, licensed clubs 300 machines. However, in saying that, Browns Plains Hotel has been Queensland's number one hotel venue for, on average, the last four years or five years and they generate more revenue than the average 200-machine club in Queensland.

PN6255

Thank you.

PN6256

MR DIXON: Browns that you have just identified was one of those establishments that you identified earlier as the saturation competition, in my shorthand?‑‑‑That is our closest competitor, 1.9 kilometres down the road.

PN6257

What are the three top hotels?‑‑‑Well, three of the top 10 hotels in Queensland is the Browns Plains Hotel, the Calamvale Hotel, the Sunnybank Hotel, and I could probably add a few more in that category as well, so very strong.

PN6258

You are familiar with the Ipswich Golf Club?‑‑‑You're testing my memory now. I was there in the early 90s, yes.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6259

All right, I won't pursue that. May I ask you to turn to the materials that were handed to you in a bundle and ask you to look, if you will, at page 39, Mr Wright. Have you seen that document or a document in that form before?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN6260

You will see this one is dated 17 October 2016. Did your club receive a document in this form from United Voice in or about that time?‑‑‑Without reading the full detail of that, we have received many letters of that nature from United Voice.

PN6261

I beg your pardon, Mr Wright. Take your time if you need to read it to answer the question?‑‑‑Yes, I'm au fait with that.

PN6262

Did you receive a letter in that form, are you able to say?‑‑‑Of a similar context, yes.

PN6263

Would you turn to page 38.

PN6264

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, were you trying to pin down the date to about October 2016 or just at any time?

PN6265

MR DIXON: The document that I refer to is dated 17 October. I should - - -

PN6266

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I thought the original question had October 2016 as the date he received it.

PN6267

MR DIXON: Thank you, your Honour, I apologise.

PN6268

THE WITNESS: I'm not sure of the date, but I was aware of the activity at Southport Sharks personally.

PN6269

MR DIXON: Where it refers to Southport Sharks Football Club where you say "the activity", what was that activity?‑‑‑Internal union activity in the venue.

PN6270

Can you put a date on when that occurred?‑‑‑No, I can't, I wasn't involved in that.

PN6271

Are you able to say with any precision, Mr Wright, as to whether you received a letter similar to this in or about October 2016 or later?‑‑‑That would be about the rough time, yes, that's correct.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6272

Would you turn to page 38. Have you seen a document in that form, a pledge?‑‑‑I have seen a pledge, that's correct, yes.

PN6273

Did it take this form?‑‑‑I can't recall whether it was in that form. It's very hard to read. That page is very pixilated.

PN6274

I apologise. When you say you received a pledge, who did you receive a pledge document from?‑‑‑It was a personally-delivered pledge at the time, I believe, from a United Voice employee, Rebecca Keys.

PN6275

What did she ask of you?‑‑‑Well, I don't think she even asked, I think she demanded that we sign the pledge.

PN6276

Was the effect of the pledge to protect weekend penalty rates for workers now and into the future?‑‑‑Well, I think the interpretation of the pledge was to protect penalty rates, that's correct, yes.

PN6277

Would you then also turn to - - -

PN6278

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Do you remember approximately when you received that?‑‑‑I couldn't recall the date, your Honour, Commissioner, we had many, many meeting with United Voice, including Gary Bullock, Troy Burton, Rebecca Keys, Jane Cartwright, a very, very time-consuming period of 12 months dealing with all matters related to that, yes.

PN6279

Was this before or after the penalty rates decision was handed down?‑‑‑What was the date the penalty rates decision was handed down?

PN6280

February 2017?‑‑‑It potentially would have been prior to.

PN6281

Thank you.

PN6282

MR DIXON: When you had all those meetings, what did you understand the purpose of the meetings were from United Voice's perspective?‑‑‑The general purpose, from my perception, was that they were after membership and they were after the signing of the MOU, as well as discussion over enterprise agreements.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6283

Can you turn to page 41. Do you recognise that document, Mr Wright?‑‑‑Again, without reading the detail, it certainly appears to be a document that may have been presented for an enterprise agreement, that's correct.

PN6284

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: You mean this entire document from 41 to 45?

PN6285

MR DIXON: Yes, your Honour.

PN6286

When you referred to an "MOU", what were you referring to?‑‑‑Memorandum of understanding.

PN6287

Is this what you understand is the memorandum of understanding that United Voice was demanding that your club sign?‑‑‑Yes, it was a combination of accepting the pledge, signing the pledge, agreeing with the memorandum of understanding and actually discussion over enterprise agreements, that's correct.

PN6288

Throughout the period, even after February 2017, there were a range of right of entries exercised by United Voice to your club?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN6289

Post February 2017, were there further demands made of your club by United Voice representatives to maintain penalty rates?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN6290

Regardless of the outcome of the 2017 penalty rates decision in February of that year?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN6291

One of the things that was of particular concern to you, Mr Wright, was it not, was that you became aware that there were communications to other clubs' managers inviting them to sign or acknowledge an MOU or pledge because you had done so?‑‑‑That has been reported, that has been - - -

PN6292

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, had you established that he signed the pledge?

PN6293

MR DIXON: No, perhaps I can - he did not sign it, your Honour. I will go back one.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6294

You did not sign a memorandum of understanding of any kind, did you, Mr Wright, or your club?‑‑‑That is correct. Myself and the board of directors at Greenbank RSL refused to sign the pledge because they had already moved a motion internally stating that the staff would not be any worse off under any decision that was made.

PN6295

You had a concern at the time, did you not, that it was being represented to other clubs that you had signed the memorandum of understanding; is that correct?‑‑‑That was reported to me at one time, yes.

PN6296

That was a concern which you raised with Mr Bullock of United Voice?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN6297

It was your understanding that it was being represented that because you had signed, other clubs should also sign up?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN6298

You complained to Mr Bullock about that?‑‑‑I did, yes.

PN6299

You complained to him about that in July 2017?‑‑‑I can't recall the exact date but that would be around the time, yes.

PN6300

Is it your understanding, Mr Wright, that if the Commission in these proceedings - I withdraw that. Could I ask you then to turn to page 8 of the bundle given to you?‑‑‑Page 8, yes.

PN6301

Pages 8 and 9 contain - is that the assessments that you had completed in the General Hospitality Diploma of Management?‑‑‑That's a certification I received, yes.

PN6302

Those courses that you undertook had general hospitality application, not confined to clubs?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN6303

The training that you received in that process included matters involving industrial relations and how to deal with industrial awards?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN6304

Does your club have its own human resources personnel manager?‑‑‑No, we don't, no, we don't.

PN6305

That is the cross-examination, if the Commission pleases.

PN6306

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination, Mr Arnold?

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT XN MR ARNOLD

PN6307

MR ARNOLD: Yes, thank you, your Honour.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ARNOLD [12.45 PM]

PN6308

MR ARNOLD: Just in relation to the memorandum of understanding, it has been established you didn't sign that memorandum of understanding?‑‑‑No, that's correct, no. We had a meeting on site with Mr Bullock and Mr Burton. I had invited a number of other club managers to hear it directly from United Voice's mouth as to exactly what their position was on the whole penalty rates scenario, but certainly I did not sign or agree to a pledge or an MOU.

PN6309

Can I just take you to that cross-examination bundle that you have there at page 41 to page 44. In that meeting you had with Mr Bullock and other people as well from other clubs, did Mr Bullock tell you where that MOU came from?‑‑‑No, there was no discussion about the basis behind the MOU apart from the fact that they just wanted our commitment that we would protect penalty rates.

PN6310

There are other provisions being sought in that MOU apart from penalty rates, isn't there?‑‑‑There are, yes.

PN6311

Do you recall a discussion with Mr Bullock - sorry, do you recall any statement from Mr Bullock in those discussions as to where these MOUs might have been in place previously?‑‑‑I can't recall of any other venues that had agreed to the MOU or signed the pledge.

PN6312

Are you aware of any other venues, apart from clubs, where this MOU might be in place?‑‑‑No, I'm not.

PN6313

Just in relation to the MOU, are you aware of any other club in Queensland that signed the MOU?‑‑‑I'm not personally aware of any club that signed the MOU, no.

PN6314

Can I take you to paragraph 10 where you talk about competition in the area and you were cross-examined by Mr Dixon in relation to competition in the area of the Greenbank/Browns Plains area. Part of the competition, an element of the competition, are employees part of that competition?‑‑‑Yes, well, certainly with a large number of licensed venues in a small area, competition for quality staff is always very tough. We have a lot of our ex-staff that moved on either through our request or their own choice that have reported to me that conditions at competitor venues are not as good as what they were at Greenbank, but certainly finding quality staff is certainly a challenge.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT RXN MR ARNOLD

PN6315

Can I take you to the cross-examination that Mr Dixon put to you or the questions that were put to you in cross-examination by Mr Dixon in relation to the struggling clubs, and I think you said in your evidence there was probably about 10 per cent of - I think it was RSL clubs that were struggling; is that right?‑‑‑Yes, my estimate would be that there would be 10 per cent, roughly, of small RSL clubs that were struggling, and that would be for a myriad of different reasons, competition being one, but also board structure, management structure and just general competition.

PN6316

So there are a number of factors involved in those clubs struggling; is that right?‑‑‑Yes, many factors. It could be as simple as being on leasehold property where the rent has increased quite substantially to price the tenant out of the market; it could be the fact that they have lost a long-term management representative, or a major shake-up in the composition of the board; it could be new competitors in the market; it could be a myriad of different things that lead to the performance issues of clubs.

PN6317

It is not just penalty rates?‑‑‑It is not penalty rates, no.

PN6318

Your Honour, just as a matter of housekeeping, paragraph 7, I think there was a typo there and, just to clarify the record, I would ask Mr Wright to clarify the date in respect to paragraph 7. I think the date should be February 2017 not June.

PN6319

THE WITNESS: That's correct.

PN6320

MR ARNOLD: I have got nothing further in re-examination, thank you, your Honour.

PN6321

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you for your evidence, Mr Wright, you are excused and you are free to go.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.51 PM]

PN6322

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is it convenient to take the luncheon adjournment now and resume at 1.50?

PN6323

MR DIXON: We don't see any difficulty. I can say that I think we will fairly readily finish before 4 o'clock.

PN6324

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All the more reason to start at 1.50.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT RXN MR ARNOLD

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.51 PM]

RESUMED [1.56 PM]

PN6325

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, do you want to deal with that order now? I notice Ms Crowe is not here.

PN6326

MR DIXON: We have tried to find out whether she is around, your Honour. We obviously want to give the organisation as much chance as possible to respond if the Commission were to make such an order. My learned friends have told me that they - on my advising that I want to deal with this matter - have tried to call Ms Crowe, but she is not answering her phone.

PN6327

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Did you have a chance to confer with her about this?

PN6328

MR DIXON: I have not, but my learned friend has and he has something, which I have no - - -

PN6329

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, all right. Mr Dowling?

PN6330

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour. Ms Burke has had a conversation during the period in which Court was continuing. We can communicate at least this: there does seem to be a distinction between what data the organisation or client of SurveyMonkey might have access to and what Ms Crowe has access to. I'm reliably informed that Ms Crowe herself does not have access to the raw data; that that might have gone to the organisation.

PN6331

I think in her evidence - we were just trying to confirm the transcript reference - she made reference to there being an IT person and the IT person having left. She confirmed that for us again. That doesn't mean someone else might not be able to assist, but as it stands Ms Crowe herself does not have access to the raw data.

PN6332

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What do you mean, doesn't have access to it? Is there a password or something?

PN6333

MR DOWLING: Yes, effectively. The SurveyMonkey provides the raw data to the organisation and then there is a form in which the answers to the question were given to Ms Crowe, and what you access - what Ms Crowe accesses is the same thing that the member of the public can access if the link is put up. You can drop down all the answers.

*** TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT RXN MR ARNOLD

PN6334

You might remember her talking about, "Well, the only way I could do this is drop down all the answers and cut and paste them." That's what she sees with the access that she has been given. That is not saying that the raw data can't be accessed, but that is what she has been given; she, as a member of the PGA - sorry, as the employee of the PGA.

PN6335

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: As distinct from who else?

PN6336

MR DOWLING: As distinct to what the IT person at the PGA was given by SurveyMonkey.

PN6337

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: SurveyMonkey is just an Internet tool, isn't it? You're not given anything. Tell me if I'm wrong. I thought it was a tool which you can access and it's designed for self‑use. It's not an external survey agency, is it?

PN6338

MR DOWLING: Well, as I understand it - - -

PN6339

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Unions do these surveys all the time. We see it in every second case.

PN6340

MR DOWLING: Yes. As I understand it, it provides the platform. People answer the questions and then they give you the data, and you do what you may with it. They can provide it to you in various different forms, as I understand it. I don't know, but no doubt some data has been provided to the PGA. The access to a different form of that has been provided to Ms Crowe.

PN6341

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: It's not a case of being provided to the PGA. It's that someone at PGA has operated the platform and used it. The data is not external to the PGA. The data is on the PGA system when they've used the platform, as I would understand it.

PN6342

MR DOWLING: Yes.

PN6343

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: This is just a mystery to me.

PN6344

MR DIXON: Can I add something to that, your Honour? I asked my learned junior to access the web site and he went onto the web site, and I've got the web site detail. He couldn't in the time available print off - Mr Gotting tells me that the web site says you can download the data and my understanding from what my learned friends - they have been helpful in trying to sort this out, I acknowledge - is that Ms Crowe might not know how to do this, but an IT person can readily come along, access that data and download it on a USB stick. That's all we ask for at the moment, as you would have seen from the order and the attachment.

PN6345

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The point, in my understanding, is it doesn't require an IT expert to do this.

PN6346

MR DIXON: But at the very worst that is the position. In my respectful submission, your Honour, data is accessible on the grounds that we have raised and it should be produced in the time on a USB stick.

PN6347

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What is the time for compliance?

PN6348

MR DIXON: We have 4 pm on 9 July. Your Honour will see there is a draft order attached to the application.

PN6349

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN6350

MR DOWLING: Your Honour, if I might just add Ms Burke is informing me of the discussion and the exchange of information that was going on whilst I was in Court. I can only add this: there are, as I understand it, two levels of access. The primary level of access that would enable the applicant to get what it wants is dependent upon the person - whether they're an IT expert or not - who has set up the survey for the PGA. That, as we understand it on very recent instructions, is the IT expert to whom Ms Crowe referred.

PN6351

I think, as I understand it, they have to get in touch with that person because he is the person that set it up and therefore has the relevant means, and passwords, to access the information.

PN6352

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN6353

MR DOWLING: Now, I have no instructions as to how difficult or easy that is, other than he has left, but assuming he is contactable he can provide the necessary passwords, the information can be accessed and whatever can be done from there can be done. That is as much as we can assist, your Honour.

PN6354

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, I thought the documents you wanted only pertained to question 15. Sorry, firstly I was going to say what is the difference between paragraph 1 and paragraph 2 of the orders sought? They seem to say the same thing.

PN6355

MR DIXON: I am struggling. Mr Gotting drafted this. I think it's designed to ensure that there is no distinction - your Honour will see order 1 is the four‑yearly salary review and the second one is just titled "PGA salary survey March 2018". That is because the covering letter does not necessarily reflect the - - -

PN6356

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: There was only one survey, wasn't there?

PN6357

MR DIXON: As far as I know.

PN6358

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: It's just a matter of its title.

PN6359

MR DIXON: The intention is to make sure that it doesn't escape the order by reference to a wrong description.

PN6360

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Secondly, I thought what you were after was only related to question 15.

PN6361

MR DIXON: Your Honour, the difficulty with that is we're trying to ensure that if all the data is provided so that we can do both the weekend penalty rates and salary - if it's left to the organisation on the basis of what Ms Crowe said, to sift through that data, it's going to be much harder. We would just take all the data and extract from it the answers to those two questions, and it would be left to us to demonstrate that that is what we have done, other than to complicate matters at their end to say they are having difficulty in sifting it out.

PN6362

To accommodate what Ms Crowe said, well, she would have to go through each one to see which answer was given or the like. That's our purpose; to make it as simple as possible for PGA.

PN6363

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Do you want to add anything, Mr Dowling?

PN6364

MR DOWLING: Just very quickly, your Honour, two things that might assist. One, I noticed a note, sorry, that the information is sought by way of an external drive. It might in fact be quicker and easier for all sides if it could be emailed.

PN6365

MR DIXON: It simply says "such as".

PN6366

MR DOWLING: It says an external drive.

PN6367

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: An external drive; does that mean a memory stick? Is that what that is?

PN6368

MR DOWLING: Yes, as I understand it. I note Ms Crowe and the PGA are based at Sandhurst in Victoria. That seems like it might slow the process rather than make it more convenient.

PN6369

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Presumably, Mr Dixon, there is no difficulty whether it's hard copy, email, memory stick, as long as you get it. Does it matter?

PN6370

MR DIXON: I think it probably is easier if it is in electronic form.

PN6371

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: It may be easier for you, but I just don't want to foreclose the options.

PN6372

MR DOWLING: The only other question, your Honour, was arising out of the question that you had asked. I don't understand why the entire data set necessarily needs to be given if there is just one or two questions. The sifting description that my learned friend gave it, I don't think that really is the issue. when access can be got to the primary data, as I understand it, then there will be no difficulty isolating one question from the other. It should be directed at the information that is being sought rather than making it broader than it needs to be.

PN6373

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Thank you.

PN6374

MR DOWLING: Thank you. I hope that helps.

PN6375

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I can indicate that the Full Bench is prepared to make an order that the raw data pertaining to questions 13 and 15 of the survey, whatever its correct title, be produced by 4 pm next Monday, 9 July. We are prepared to make an order that it can be produced in a form that is easiest for the PGA to comply with. That can include hard copies provided to the Melbourne registry of the Commission, a flash drive provided to the Melbourne registry of the Commission or electronically by email sent to my chambers.

PN6376

MR DIXON: If the Commission pleases.

PN6377

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, can I ask your side, if they can, to formulate an order reflecting that and email it to my chambers. We will arrange to have that issued this afternoon.

PN6378

MR DIXON: If the Commission pleases.

PN6379

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Mr Cooper, the next witnesses are yours?

PN6380

MR COOPER: Yes, your Honour. I would just like to make some initial opening remarks.

PN6381

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN6382

MR COOPER: Very briefly. The association filed an outline of our case on 10 May and we go into detail of our concerns. They are very much a replication, if you like, of United Voice's application which they filed on 14 May. We would like to formally put on record that we support the case lodged by United Voice dated 14 May, the Australian Workers Union dated 18 May, but particularly noting that the CAI was not pressing extending the ordinary hours of work for maintenance and horticultural workers dealing with clause 29(1)(e) of the draft award.

PN6383

The general thrust of the AWU is that they oppose the revoking of the award. We support them in that. The CMA has been consistent in our reasoning of why there should be a distinct and particular Clubs Award. That position hasn't altered since 2008 when all the parties were in agreeance by way of consent. I don't wish to again revisit the areas of section 164 of the Act and 134(2) - just by saying that the reasoning for the creation of the award remain good, founded reasons today.

PN6384

I would also like to note - and I think the members of the Commission pointed out a number of years ago when this process started - that the awards made through the modernisation process were no longer party awards. They are Commission awards. The draft produced on 15 June, there is no certainty that this is not treated as an application to vary an award. The Commission is under no obligation to simply adopt what Clubs Australia Industrial - I think the CMA was very happy with the first draft exposure that was produced in November 2016. There were not a lot of significant matters that needed to have much debate on.

PN6385

Like the creation of the first award, there was a number of conferences dealt with by Watson VP at the time and we very much knocked those over quickly. I had envisaged when we first saw the first exposure draft, again it would be a rather straightforward exercise as opposed to the other awards that the Commission is dealing with at the moment. We would have seen the creation of a modernised award after the four yearly review. Because the award has been effective in operation since that time and during that period of time there has been nothing significant identified as an issue the parties had to deal with, that's where my belief laid at that time.

PN6386

Turning to our witnesses, I would like to paint a picture of what evidence we're trying to produce for the Commission. Sharon Tassell is our first witness who I will shortly call. Now, Sharon is a good example of an employee who recognised very early she wanted to identify a career path in the club industry and undertook a lot of studies to bring herself to where she is today.

PN6387

Witness number 2 is Mr Allan Peter. He is our honorary federal secretary, but an experienced club manager. His role with the CMA outside of being our federal secretary is to look after the legislative requirements and compliance matters for club managers. He also undertakes training of club managers and we have got a number of attachments to his statement.

PN6388

Matt Dagg is witness number 3 on Monday. Matt is an unusual club manager in the surf industry, because surf clubs generally have a manager upstairs who looks after the supporters club, which is the licensed premises, and possibly another general manager downstairs looking after surf lifesavers. Matt in his role is the general manager for both entities and controls staff in both those areas, so that's the uniqueness of a surf club manager.

PN6389

Zoe Clegg is our fourth witness. She is a training and development manager, particularly for club managers. David Hiscox is the general manager of Dapto Leagues Club, but he also is our honorary federal president. His evidence goes to what a general manager has to deal with in regard to compliance and running a very large club with two entities; it's a leagues club and a golf club. That is the five witnesses we intend to call, so I would like to take the opportunity of now calling Sharon Tassell as our first witness.

PN6390

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN6391

MR COOPER: Thank you.

PN6392

THE ASSOCIATE: Could you please state your full name and address.

PN6393

MS TASSELL: Sharon Tassell, (address supplied).

<SHARON TASSELL, SWORN [2.16 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR COOPER [2.16 PM]

PN6394

MR COOPER: Could you please state your full name for the record?‑‑‑Sharon Tassell.

PN6395

What is your address?‑‑‑(Address supplied)

PN6396

What is your occupation?‑‑‑General manager.

PN6397

Have you prepared a statement for these proceedings?‑‑‑I have.

PN6398

Do you have a copy of that statement with you?‑‑‑I do.

PN6399

Does it contain 31 paragraphs?‑‑‑It does.

PN6400

Did you sign and date it 10 May?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6401

Is this a true and correct record?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6402

I tender that statement to the Commission.

PN6403

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any objection?

PN6404

MR DIXON: No.

PN6405

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The statement of Sharon Tassell, dated 10 May 2018, will be marked exhibit 45.

EXHIBIT #45 WITNESS STATEMENT OF SHARON TASSELL DATED 10/05/2018

*** SHARON TASSELL XN MR COOPER

PN6406

MR COOPER: If I could ask you just one or two quick questions regarding your statement. If I could take you to paragraph 11 on page 3. You indicate that you did some industry consulting work for clubs in trouble. Could you describe what sort of work you were doing and where you conducted this type of work?‑‑‑To start with, it was just setting up my own little consultancy company to see if I could branch out on my own. There is a lot of small clubs in the industry that can't afford managers specialised in certain areas and since I'm specialised in a lot of general areas, I offered my services. Small bowling clubs was one. I just helped out with their - just their general POS systems. I then approached RTHospitality, whose company was looking after some clubs under administration, and worked with those guys for a while just helping them identify problem areas in clubs, as clubs wasn't their overall speciality. The speciality is actually working in the club. They were there as an insolvency base.

PN6407

But it was strictly management services, was it - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6408

- - - that you were providing to those clubs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6409

Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON [2.19 PM]

PN6410

MR DIXON: Ms Tassell, you hold an advanced diploma in hospitality?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN6411

You have provided a copy of your academic transcript in that regard, attached to your statement. Is that correct?‑‑‑Correct.

PN6412

Do you have access to that attachment?‑‑‑Yes, I - - -

PN6413

You do? Just remember if you can answer yes or no. You may have and I may not have heard you as opposed to just nodding your head - because this is being transcribed?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6414

Okay. Thank you. You completed some of your courses through Club Managers Association?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN6415

You completed some of the courses set out there through TAFE?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN6416

In the TAFE presentation and courses, other persons in those courses to your knowledge worked for pubs?‑‑‑I really couldn't tell you, to be honest.

*** SHARON TASSELL XXN MR DIXON

PN6417

Right. Do you have any knowledge of who your course participants were; as to where they worked?‑‑‑At TAFE, I have no idea. TAFE was studying human resource management. This transcript was from the Club Managers Association. They're all club staff or club managers.

PN6418

I follow. Can I take you to the course units that you did. On the first page of the document headed "Registered training organisation, provider number 6984", was that a Clubs organisation or TAFE?‑‑‑This - - -

PN6419

At the very top?‑‑‑That's done by Managers Association. They were accredited trainers at the time.

PN6420

Thank you. If you go about halfway down the page starting with "THHADG01B - Analyse and report on gaming machines data", down to the bottom of that page, can the tribunal take it that those units were not club‑specific, but covered the hospitality industry generally?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6421

If you go, for example, to the next page of the transcript you will see just over halfway down there is a unit described as "Roster B" - that's "05B, Roster Staff". That general application was not club‑specific?‑‑‑That one would have been club‑specific.

PN6422

"Managing workplace relations" at 10B?‑‑‑I don't remember the actual course outline for that one.

PN6423

Right?‑‑‑Sorry.

PN6424

No problem. Then on the last page you will see there is the second entry "Develop and update hospitality industry knowledge". I take it that could not have been confined to clubs, but was of a general nature?‑‑‑"Develop and update the legal knowledge required"? That one or - - -

PN6425

No, the second entry, "Develop and update hospitality industry knowledge". It's on page 3, sorry?‑‑‑That would have been for clubs.

PN6426

You previously worked at Five Dock RSL?‑‑‑Correct.

PN6427

You started there in 1994, but you have been back to Five Dock recently, have you?‑‑‑No, not recently.

PN6428

Not recently?‑‑‑No.

*** SHARON TASSELL XXN MR DIXON

PN6429

When did you leave Five Dock RSL?‑‑‑From memory, because I went there twice, 1999 I left temporarily.

PN6430

When you say temporarily, when did you go back?‑‑‑Approximately a year later, I think.

PN6431

You worked for the Castle Hill RSL in 2003?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6432

Do you still have a recollection of that club's facilities?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6433

Two restaurants?‑‑‑Not now.

PN6434

Do you know what the position is now?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6435

What is the position now at Castle Hill?‑‑‑Castle Hill has four restaurants and a coffee shop.

PN6436

It has more than one bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6437

Does it have gaming machines?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6438

Sporting facilities?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6439

When you were there it had restaurants, a coffee shop, bars, gaming machines and sporting facilities?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6440

When you were there, that RSL club employed food and beverage attendants?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6441

Bar attendants?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6442

Chefs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6443

Cooks?‑‑‑Yes.

*** SHARON TASSELL XXN MR DIXON

PN6444

Kitchen attendants?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6445

You also worked at the Rose Hill Bowling Club for a period?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6446

That club was in financial difficulty when you started there, was it?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN6447

You made considerable efforts to assist it to come out of its financial difficulties for a period of time?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6448

One of the strategies you adopted was to engage in a marketing strategy to try and achieve that result?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6449

Your marketing strategy included letterbox drops?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6450

SMS messaging?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6451

What other methods did you use to try and generate members and custom for the Rose Hill Bowling Club?‑‑‑So - - -

PN6452

Promotional marketing?‑‑‑Yes, basic promotional marketing. What I've said, Facebook, SMS, e‑news. I think one of the biggest ways of marketing was engaging with the staff and providing excellent customer service so we could get the repeat business. When I got there, I had a team that wasn't very enthusiastic. I let some of my bubbly personality overflow onto those guys and encouraged those people. That's always a big way of getting people in the door.

PN6453

You were at Rose Hill Bowling Club from 2009 through to 2014, were you not?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6454

That club had approximately 19 hundred members?‑‑‑From memory, approximately.

PN6455

I'm reading off your LinkedIn note?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6456

That would be correct, would it, approximately 19 hundred?‑‑‑Approximately.

*** SHARON TASSELL XXN MR DIXON

PN6457

It had three bowling greens?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6458

Two bars?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6459

A TAB?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6460

Keno?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6461

37 gaming machines?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6462

In summary form, you put a lot of effort in to try and get that bowling club back on its feet?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6463

Financially?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6464

You had some success in that regard?‑‑‑We did.

PN6465

You did, but notwithstanding all the efforts you made - the club ended up trading relatively well, but it nonetheless did not survive because a position was taken that reforms to the longevity of the club were uncertain and in the end it amalgamated with the Australian Turf Club. Is that correct?‑‑‑Not really, no.

PN6466

What is your understanding of the position?‑‑‑So when I was appointed the general manager of the Rose Hill Bowling Club, there was already talks with the STC at the time - which is now the ATC, the turf club - to possibly amalgamate. When I left, I left because of board conflict. The club was in a financial position. I don't know what position they are in now because, as you said, they amalgamated with the ATC.

PN6467

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Where is the club vis-a-vis the racecourse? Is it close by?‑‑‑Yes, across the road.

PN6468

Across the road.

PN6469

MR DIXON: You now work at the Henry Sports Club?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** SHARON TASSELL XXN MR DIXON

PN6470

You started there at what date? The Henry Lawson Sports Club, when did you start?‑‑‑What year are we in now? April 2014.

PN6471

Have you remained in employment in that club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6472

The club has a restaurant?‑‑‑A bistro.

PN6473

A bistro. Does it have a bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6474

Function room?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6475

A theatre?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6476

A hair and beauty facility?‑‑‑Yes. It's not owned by the club though.

PN6477

Is a separate operator on club premises?‑‑‑Yes, she leases from us.

PN6478

The club employs food and beverage attendants?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN6479

Bar attendants?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6480

Chefs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6481

Cooks?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6482

Kitchen attendants?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6483

The rostering of staff at the Henry Lawson Sports Club, would you agree, would you not, that more staff hours are rostered on a Saturday than any other day of the week Monday to Friday?‑‑‑Friday and Saturday, dependent on functions.

PN6484

So Friday and Saturday are the biggest nights. Is that right?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** SHARON TASSELL XXN MR DIXON

PN6485

But you would roster more hours on a Sunday typically than on each of a Monday to Friday?‑‑‑More on the Sunday, yes. We have a football association relationship - club that we sponsor. Trade comes from them on a Sunday, plus we get functions on Sundays.

PN6486

So that means you have got greater demand for your services on a Saturday or a Sunday, or have I misunderstood you? Were you saying that was a Sunday that the football brought the additional demands for your services?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6487

I see. Are you familiar with the Clubs Award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6488

You say in paragraph 17 of your statement that there are six managers employed by the club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6489

Is that still the case since you made your statement?‑‑‑Sorry, can I just count on my fingers? There is an increase in one, as we've just promoted a lady.

PN6490

So you have now got seven managers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6491

Would you be able to tell us, if I showed you the Clubs Award, as to which levels they're classified in?‑‑‑There is two on level B and two on level - three on level A, myself and a chef on a different level, but I can't remember which one he's on.

PN6492

So there are two on level B, three at level A including - sorry, then you, a chef and - that's five - six. Where is the seventh?‑‑‑I was including myself.

PN6493

What level are you? I'm sorry, can you give me those numbers again, please?‑‑‑Yes. So there are two level A - - -

PN6494

Yes.

PN6495

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I thought you said three A, two B - - -?‑‑‑Three, sorry. I apologise. Three level A, two level B, chef level D, I believe, and myself.

PN6496

MR DIXON: Okay. Are you level G? Well, I'll come to what you - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6497

You're the top level?‑‑‑Yes.

*** SHARON TASSELL XXN MR DIXON

PN6498

The three managers that are at level A, what are their duties?‑‑‑One is a functions and administration manager.

PN6499

Does that person get paid well above the salary stipulated for level A?‑‑‑She gets paid level A, plus 20 per cent exemption.

PN6500

Not above the 20 per cent exemption?‑‑‑Slightly above, just to incorporate a uniform allowance.

PN6501

Then the other level A?‑‑‑Two customer service leaders.

PN6502

Are they paid above the 20 per cent exemption level?‑‑‑Yes, slightly.

PN6503

Above, but more than uniform allowance?‑‑‑Just slightly above.

PN6504

Right. The level B managers?‑‑‑The same.

PN6505

What role do they play?‑‑‑They are senior customer service leaders.

PN6506

Okay. Each of those two are paid above the 20 per cent threshold?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN6507

And above the uniform allowance?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6508

The chef, I think that's level D?‑‑‑Yes. He is paid above.

PN6509

The 20 per cent threshold?‑‑‑He's 50 per cent.

PN6510

I don't want your own personal details, but we can take it that you are paid well above, can we, the level G plus 20 per cent threshold?‑‑‑I actually don't know what level G pays, to be honest.

PN6511

Well, I think it's 60,089?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6512

So you are paid significantly above that plus any 20 per cent threshold, and above the 20 per cent threshold?‑‑‑Yes.

*** SHARON TASSELL XXN MR DIXON

PN6513

May I ask you then to turn to paragraph 20 of your statement and you will see that you mention there that the Henry Sports Club has competitors that include other clubs, restaurants and pubs?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN6514

What are the other clubs that compete with Henry Sports Club?‑‑‑Sorry, what are the other clubs?

PN6515

Yes?‑‑‑Local ones, St Marys Band Club, St Marys Leagues Club.

PN6516

Sorry, St Marys?‑‑‑Band Club, St Marys Leagues Club, the Gaelic Club.

PN6517

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Where is the Gaelic Club?‑‑‑Is it Penrith? Penrith.

PN6518

MR DIXON: Are you familiar with each of those clubs?‑‑‑I know of them.

PN6519

Are you able to tell that they have got food and liquor services?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6520

The St Marys Band Club has got a bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6521

Food outlet, a bistro?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6522

Function room?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6523

Virtually all the facilities that your club has?‑‑‑Yes, but we've got cultural differences.

PN6524

Just the facilities?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6525

The leagues club you refer to, St Marys Leagues Club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6526

Same facilities as yours?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6527

More than one bar?‑‑‑Yes.

*** SHARON TASSELL XXN MR DIXON

PN6528

Function room?‑‑‑Yes, a lot larger.

PN6529

Sorry?‑‑‑A lot larger.

PN6530

A lot larger, yes.

PN6531

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: There's a strong sports focus?‑‑‑In the leagues club?

PN6532

Yes, the St Marys Leagues Club.

PN6533

MR DIXON: And the Gaelic Club?‑‑‑Irish Club.

PN6534

Yes, does it have any sporting facilities?‑‑‑Not that I'm aware of.

PN6535

Are you aware that it has got a function facility?‑‑‑Yes, it has.

PN6536

Restaurant?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6537

Bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6538

What about the competitors that you have in mind in paragraph 20 when you say, "Competitors, including other restaurants" in your area? What are the restaurants that you are competing with at Henry Lawson Club?‑‑‑We're competing with every restaurant, including the fast food restaurants across the road.

PN6539

Are there a range of restaurants in close proximity to the Henry Sports Club with whom you compete?‑‑‑Sorry, but everybody's a competitor when it comes to the food industry.

PN6540

Obviously, if you can attract people in the food industry, you can also attract them for gaming revenue?‑‑‑Exactly.

PN6541

Do you regard every pub in the vicinity as a competitor for your revenue, whether it's alcohol, food or gaming?‑‑‑Absolutely.

*** SHARON TASSELL XXN MR DIXON

PN6542

There are a number of pubs, are there, in close proximity to your club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6543

Each of those pubs, to your knowledge - how many, do you know?‑‑‑Sorry, no.

PN6544

Sorry?‑‑‑I couldn't tell you how many. More than five.

PN6545

More than five. If you can bring five up in your mind, each of the five would have bar facility?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6546

Food, bistro?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6547

Any function facilities associated with any of those bars?‑‑‑I'm not sure of the scale of their function capacity.

PN6548

Did you adopt the same sort of marketing strategies as you did when you worked at the Rosehill Bowling Club to promote your competition with those clubs, restaurants and pubs?‑‑‑I had to be a little bit more aggressive at the Henry Sports Club as the club was under administration at the time and there was bad vibes in relation to previous management and they lost a lot of their regular members, so it was more of an aggressive campaign, letting them know that the Henry Sports Club was not going to close the doors.

PN6549

At your club, Ms Tassell, any reduction in gaming revenue obviously puts significant financial pressure on the club to seek to contain its costs base across the services that it provides to members and guests?‑‑‑It did initially, yes, but we're not one of the clubs that is 90 per cent reliant on gaming, we're only about 60 per cent.

PN6550

What is your reliance?‑‑‑About 60 per cent.

PN6551

Sixty per cent, thank you. No further questions, if the Commission please.

PN6552

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination, Mr Cooper?

PN6553

MR COOPER: I do.

*** SHARON TASSELL XXN MR DIXON

PN6554

COMMISSIONER HAMPTON: Ms Tassell, I take it that the members of the Henry Sports Club pay a fee, a membership fee?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6555

Are there different levels of membership?‑‑‑We have one-year and five-year membership and permanent membership.

PN6556

What is the level of those membership fees?‑‑‑$5 for one year and $20 for five years.

PN6557

How does that compare with membership fees in other clubs?‑‑‑I think the smaller clubs, we all charge a smaller fee. We're not income tax-exempt, so the more members we can encourage to join the club then the less income tax that we pay, so we keep our fees quite low.

PN6558

As against larger clubs?‑‑‑A lot of the larger clubs are up over the $25 mark.

PN6559

Per annum?‑‑‑Yes, especially the sporting clubs.

PN6560

Thank you very much.

PN6561

MR DIXON: If I can just ask two questions in relation to that, if I may?

PN6562

In relation to membership levels, do you get bigger discounts if you're at the higher level than the lower level for services?‑‑‑No.

PN6563

Did I understand you correctly, Ms Tassell, to say that you are not income tax-exempt?‑‑‑No.

PN6564

You agree with me you are not income tax-exempt?‑‑‑No, we're not, we're not a sporting club. We're not classed as a sporting club.

PN6565

Did you say you are income tax-exempt?‑‑‑No, we're not, we pay income tax.

PN6566

You pay income tax. Right. Do you know, is there a particular rate that is set for your income tax or is it simply a normal corporations tax rate, do you know?‑‑‑It's normal corporations tax. We haven't had to pay any because the club lost money for many years.

*** SHARON TASSELL XXN MR DIXON

PN6567

Thank you.

PN6568

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination, Mr Cooper?

PN6569

MR COOPER: Just one quick question, thank you, your Honour.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR COOPER [2.43 PM]

PN6570

MR COOPER: Mr Dixon was asking you about St Marys Leagues Club and you said that's a different culture. What did you mean by that?‑‑‑I probably should have said "background". I meant that obviously the Gaelic Club has got an Irish club history, we've got a culture of music and theatre, the leagues club is sport, but we're all community-based.

PN6571

Thank you.

PN6572

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you for your evidence, Ms Tassell, you are excused and you are free to go?‑‑‑Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.44 PM]

PN6573

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The next witness is Mr Peter; is that right?

PN6574

MR COOPER: That's right, Allan Peter. Before I call Allan Peter, I have had a discussion with Mr Dixon about a new piece of legislation which is relatively brand new and we are still digesting it. It goes to particular requirements for top executives in New South Wales clubs and it has referred to amendments to the Registered Clubs Act 1976, Registered Clubs Regulations, and it goes to the heart of the Registered Clubs Amendment (Accountability and Amalgamations) Act 2018. Allan Peter, covering his field of compliance, was going to address this matter as part of his evidence, and I believe I don't have any objections in tendering this as part of his evidence. We didn't have the opportunity to give much notice of that. We indicated in a circular to members on 21 June that we were having a meeting with the department about how this was going to be implemented, but the Act came into play on 15 June.

PN6575

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: You want Mr Peter to give evidence about all this, do you? All right, if there's no objection, that will be fine. Mr Peter, can I just ask you to take a seat at the back for just one second. We just need to re-establish the connection with Brisbane before we call the witness. Can you hear us, Mr Arnold?

*** SHARON TASSELL RXN MR COOPER

PN6576

MR ARNOLD: I can hear you but not quite see you at this point. I think you are about to come through.

PN6577

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, we will try and turn up the volume a bit.

PN6578

MR ARNOLD: No, we're fine, thank you.

PN6579

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, thank you. Mr Peter, can you come forward now, please.

PN6580

THE ASSOCIATE: Could you please state your full name and address.

PN6581

MR PETER: Allan James Peter, (address supplied).

<ALLAN JAMES PETER, SWORN [2.47 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR COOPER [2.47 PM]

PN6582

MR COOPER: Could you please state your full name for the Commission, please?‑‑‑Allan James Peter.

PN6583

What is your address?‑‑‑(Address supplied)

PN6584

What is your occupation?‑‑‑I'm federal secretary of the Club Managers Association of Australia.

PN6585

Have you prepared a statement for the purposes of these proceedings?‑‑‑I have.

PN6586

Do you have a copy of that statement with you?‑‑‑It's in front of me, yes.

PN6587

Does it contain 19 paragraphs?‑‑‑Yes, sir.

PN6588

Was it dated 9 May and signed by you?‑‑‑That's correct, sir.

PN6589

Are the contents of your statement true and correct?‑‑‑Yes, sir.

*** ALLAN JAMES PETER XN MR COOPER

PN6590

In your statement, you refer to appendix 1, which is the Corporate Governance for Club Managers in the State of New South Wales. Do you have a copy of that with you?‑‑‑Yes, sir, the two sheets.

PN6591

No, the large bundle?‑‑‑The large one over here, yes. Yes, I have, yes.

PN6592

We will hand that up. To assist the Commission understanding that, could you give a quick - - -

PN6593

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, before you do that, where is this referred to in - oh, I see, paragraph 18?

PN6594

MR COOPER: Yes. It's a very large document, so I thought it best if the witness is able to give a brief outline of the purpose.

PN6595

THE WITNESS: The purpose of the document came around when the New South Wales State Government thought it would be an advantage for clubs to have qualified, or more qualified, top executives than what they currently had at that time. This course was a four-day course set up in 2009 by the state government in consultations with ClubsNSW, us, solicitors and various other organisations to draft up a document for OLGR to look at to have it as an approved document for the New South Wales Government to introduce legislation for training for managers and qualifications for managers to manage a club. In 2013, it was changed around to a two-day course in which further legal obligations were put in regarding legislation requirements, and has continued on there for that purpose.

PN6596

MR COOPER: Because the document is not marked, I have tagged a particular area of that which refers to approved manager, an approved manager - it's the green tag.

PN6597

What is the meaning of an approved manager? Does that cover hospitality clubs or hotels?‑‑‑The application is before the Licensing Court for the approved manager of a registered club. That's the form that's got to be filled out. As of 15 June of this year, June 2018, the legislation was changed. Now the requirement is not only to have an approved manager but also a manager to be under contract by the board to carry out the duties of the top executive of the club.

PN6598

I advised the Commission about a circular. Do you have a copy of the circular issued to members under your name?‑‑‑Yes, it's in front of me there, yes.

*** ALLAN JAMES PETER XN MR COOPER

PN6599

Dated 22 June. Again, briefly, could you explain the intent behind this amendment to the Registered Clubs Act and the ramifications for club managers?

PN6600

MR DIXON: I am not sure the witness can explain the intent of the legislation.

PN6601

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: He can explain what the notice says about the intent of the legislation.

PN6602

MR DIXON: I understand that, your Honour.

PN6603

THE WITNESS: The explanation that went out to our members was following a meeting we had with OLGR on the clarification of what was required for the top executives to hold that position, particularly with regarding to the contracts that were required by the board and required under legislation, as listed in there, the contracts of employment with top executives, A, B, C and D is in there as well, and with the threshold of the Fair Work being 142,000, that come into play as well. It was - the requirement, which we have no concerns with - as I said, we've been running with the training organisation and the corporate governance side of things with the secretary/managers course for quite some time now - we had no issues with the legislation being brought in, we had no problems with the contractual basis that's been put in place under New South Wales legislation, and it's certainly made a more professional outlook for our managers to be able to put in.

PN6604

You must also take into consideration that the club industry and the club managers in particular are the only ones that have to fulfil these obligations regarding the contracts for their employment, as hotels don't have to fill out those - or actually don't have to do that requirement under the Act - it's only the club managers who have a contract with the club of employment.

PN6605

MR COOPER: Thank you, Mr Peter, thank you.

PN6606

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Do you tender all the documents, Mr Cooper?

PN6607

MR COOPER: Sorry, yes, I do.

PN6608

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think I will mark them separately. The statement of Allan James Peter dated 9 May 2018 will be marked exhibit 46.

EXHIBIT #46 WITNESS STATEMENT OF ALLAN JAMES PETER DATED 09/05/2018

*** ALLAN JAMES PETER XN MR COOPER

PN6609

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I will just refer to the documents in the folder as the CMAA tender bundle and that will be marked exhibit 47.

EXHIBIT #47 CMAA TENDER BUNDLE

PN6610

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: And the CMAA notice to members dated 22 June 2018 will be marked exhibit 48.

EXHIBIT #48 CMAA NOTICE TO MEMBERS DATED 22/06/2018

PN6611

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON [2.55 PM]

PN6612

MR DIXON: Mr Peter, can I just ask you to turn to the notice to members which has been marked exhibit 48. You will see there is a reference, about two-thirds down the page, "Contracts of Employment with Top Executives", and if you go across the page, you will see there is a reference there to a comment by your association which says:

PN6613

So every club will have at least one top executive, the secretary of the club.

PN6614

So that is one of the persons who is subject to this legislation as you have provided that information?‑‑‑That's correct, sir.

PN6615

Going back to the first page, is there any other requirement that you can point to - and I haven't had a chance to look at the legislation - which obliges a club to have contracts of the kind set out at the bottom of page 1 with any other executive?‑‑‑No, sir.

PN6616

So it's a minimum requirement that a secretary of a club must enter into a contract of this kind?‑‑‑Top executive, sir.

PN6617

The secretary being the top executive?‑‑‑Well, yes, you would say so, yes.

PN6618

There have been previous obligations on clubs to deal with the remuneration of top executives, haven't there, so this doesn't bring a change in that regard?‑‑‑No, sir.

*** ALLAN JAMES PETER XXN MR DIXON

PN6619

You would agree with me that there was the obligation for disclosure of the financial rewards for top executives in the previous code of conduct and in the legislation?‑‑‑My understanding, and that is it's still there, sir.

PN6620

Yes, so this doesn't bring about any change to that regime?‑‑‑No, sir.

PN6621

That is what I was trying to clarify?‑‑‑No, sir.

PN6622

Thank you. You are, as I understand it, described in your statement as the federal secretary of Clubs Managers' Association Australia?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6623

Mr Peter, how long have you held that role?‑‑‑Seventeen years, I think now it is, sir.

PN6624

In your capacity as federal secretary, you are obviously familiar with the membership requirements of CMAA?‑‑‑The membership requirements are under a trade union, which we are, sir.

PN6625

Yes, and under your rules, your membership coverage extends to manager in hospitality venues as well?‑‑‑It's open to the list that's on there, which is open to what you said, yes.

PN6626

You would be aware, I take it, given your experience, that in the hospitality industry general award, there are positions for management staff that would include venues?‑‑‑In?

PN6627

In the hospitality general award?‑‑‑I wasn't aware of that, but I presume it would be, yes. I'm not that au fait with the hospitality award.

PN6628

You are also aware, are you, that there is a classification of managerial staff, hotels, in the hospitality industry general award?‑‑‑I'm aware of that.

PN6629

You accept that there is potential coverage of your members by the hospitality industry award?‑‑‑Again, it's up to the individual who wants to come in along those awards that can join any award they want or any trade union they want.

PN6630

I am talking about employees. Your membership extends to coverage of employees covered by the hospitality industry award?

*** ALLAN JAMES PETER XXN MR DIXON

PN6631

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon, membership or coverage?

PN6632

MR DIXON: Coverage.

PN6633

THE WITNESS: I would have to have a look at the award, so I'm not sure.

PN6634

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think Mr Dixon is referring to the constitution ruling in your union's rules?‑‑‑Thank you, your Honour. Yes, it would.

PN6635

MR DIXON: Yes, thank you. Thank you, your Honour. The document that was marked as exhibit 47, I think, is the - I'm sorry, before I get to that, can I just ask you about your annual reports for the Club Managers' Association of Australia. You sign off on those reports, do you not, to lodge under the federal legislation?‑‑‑That's correct, sir.

PN6636

You signed, as secretary, on 15 May 2008, the Club Managers' Association of Australia financial report for the year ended 31 December 2017?‑‑‑If that's what's on there, sir, yes.

PN6637

I am happy to show you?‑‑‑No, no, thank you.

PN6638

All right. Tell me if you have got any difficulty with this - I am just trying to deal with it efficiently - are you able to tell the Commission what the number of persons are that you recorded that were members of your association as at that date? I will show you the document?‑‑‑1700-and-something - 1756.

PN6639

I think it's fair, I'll just show - - -

PN6640

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Why don't you just tell him if he got it right, Mr Dixon?

PN6641

MR DIXON: I think I just wanted to confirm that he signed it on that date. Page 303, thank you. If you can just show it to him.

PN6642

Does that document contain your signature?‑‑‑Yes, it does, sir.

PN6643

The number that you remembered about the membership number?

*** ALLAN JAMES PETER XXN MR DIXON

PN6644

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: You said it was on the third page, Mr Dixon?

PN6645

THE WITNESS: 1714.

PN6646

MR DIXON: 1741. Thank you, may I have it back? I am trying to save on paper. I just want to ask you one other thing in relation to this. Mr Peter, your report also referred to the organisation is made up of two parts?‑‑‑Correct.

PN6647

It is the CMAA head office's administration?‑‑‑Correct.

PN6648

And the zones?‑‑‑Correct.

PN6649

What are the zones responsible for?‑‑‑The zones are responsible for the members in those areas. We have got 22 active zones throughout Australia and they have a membership in those areas for a zone meeting, zone educational programs, they run their own committees, but we are responsible, as a head organisation, to make sure the financials and transactions that they carry out is within the Registered Organisation Commission and the Fair Work Act.

PN6650

You refer in your statement - if I may draw your attention, at paragraph 9 to venue managers - you will see your membership includes various levels and you mention venue managers. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes, sir.

PN6651

Does a venue manager, as they are described by you, supervise a function venue within a club?‑‑‑On my understanding, that's what they're employed for, yes.

PN6652

And a function venue is the place, for example, where, your understanding is, wedding receptions and such types of functions are held?‑‑‑That's correct, sir.

PN6653

Including engagement parties, birthday parties and corporate events?‑‑‑That's correct, sir.

PN6654

In your experience, such venues serve food and drinks to guests?‑‑‑Well, they would, sir, yes.

PN6655

And there would be waiters serving food and drinks?‑‑‑Yes, sir.

*** ALLAN JAMES PETER XXN MR DIXON

PN6656

Kitchen hands preparing food for such events?‑‑‑Yes, sir.

PN6657

Bar attendants preparing drinks to be served to guests?‑‑‑That's correct, sir.

PN6658

And the function venue, obviously, is intended to provide entertainment to guests?‑‑‑Correct, sir.

PN6659

You also, in paragraph 9 of your statement, refer to specialist managers. Can I draw that to your attention?‑‑‑Yes, sir.

PN6660

What is an example of a specialist manager, in your view, in a leagues club?‑‑‑Not necessarily in that type of environment in a leagues club, but it could be, it could be a specialist manager that looks after the football side of it, it could be someone in an RSL that looks after the RSL sub-branch side of it, sir.

PN6661

Could you just go more slowly for me, please? When you said in relation to you would not necessarily find a specialist manager in a leagues club - is that what you said?‑‑‑You may not.

PN6662

You may not. Would you find a specialist manager - would you expect to find one in an RSL club?‑‑‑Not necessarily.

PN6663

Not necessarily. In a golf club?‑‑‑Well, you probably would have. If they owned the pro shop, you would have a specialist manager looking after the pro shop, yes.

PN6664

A bowls club?‑‑‑Again, if you didn't have a bowls coordinator and you had a paid person in there, you'd want to have a special manager for the bowls side of it, yes.

PN6665

And in sports clubs?‑‑‑Same thing.

PN6666

Same thing. So you would expect that when you refer there to specialist managers, you are referring to senior managers or just - no, I withdraw that - you are referring to specialist managers in clubs of the kind of golf club, bowls club, sports club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6667

But you also can anticipate that you could employ such a person in an RSL club?‑‑‑You could.

*** ALLAN JAMES PETER XXN MR DIXON

PN6668

What would the role be?‑‑‑Well, again, with functions areas and things like that and not having a function manager, as I said. It depends on the terminology of their boards.

PN6669

And the leagues club, what would you expect a specialist manager's role to be?‑‑‑Could be involved with the relationship between the board and the football club.

PN6670

You have been a committee member of the Victorian Commission for Gambling and Liquor Regulation?‑‑‑I was on the VCGLR Committee, yes, regarding requirements and that down there, yes.

PN6671

Are you still a member?‑‑‑No, sir.

PN6672

When did you cease to be a member?‑‑‑About three years ago, sir.

PN6673

You understood when you were on that committee that the purpose of that commission was to regulate the gambling and liquor industries in Victoria?‑‑‑It was not only doing that, it was relating to a lot of things regarding that. Our purpose on there was particularly to go into the training aspect of it and to get across to the government what the specialised training should be for club management.

PN6674

Let's stick first with - it was to regulate the gaming and liquor industries as one of its purposes?‑‑‑It didn't come up in the discussions in the meetings I was at.

PN6675

But that commission regulated the conduct of restaurants?‑‑‑Again, I can't remember that, sir.

PN6676

Cafes?‑‑‑As I said, I just can't remember that. All I remember is the training requirement that we put forward.

PN6677

The training requirement extended to what?‑‑‑Similar to what's in New South Wales, the requirements they go through and, as I said, to become a manager or a top executive of a licensed premises or a licensed club, then they would have to complete a mandatory course set either by the government or set by us, as I say, similar to the New South Wales requirement.

*** ALLAN JAMES PETER XXN MR DIXON

PN6678

So the Liquor Control Reform Act of 1998 in Victoria, the training requirements that were conducted under that Act regulated the issue of licences - sorry, that Act regulated the issue of licences?‑‑‑I presume so.

PN6679

One type of licence was a pub licence covered by that Act?‑‑‑Again, I was there to talk about the training aspect of it.

PN6680

But if you are going to train them, you need to know what is covered by - if you want to train people in respect of the legislation, I presume you should know what the legislation covers?‑‑‑When you have solicitors doing half a day or three-quarters of a day going through the legislation requirements, similar to New South Wales, and also through the accounting side of it, my job is to explain to them the running of a licensed premises as a registered club. We have other people that come in and do the extra work regarding the legislation requirements and the legal requirements as solicitors and accountants.

PN6681

All I am trying to establish, and tell us if you don't understand this position, is that the Liquor Control Reform Act in Victoria was designed to regulate a range of licences, including a pub licence?‑‑‑I don't know, sir.

PN6682

You don't know?‑‑‑No.

PN6683

Do you know whether it covered and regulated a club licence?‑‑‑Again, I can't remember that.

PN6684

In paragraph 5 of your statement, you give evidence about your being involved in representing the club industry in relation to corporate governance and managing director training to be adopted in New South Wales in respect of - you say in paragraph 6, you are accredited as an RSA trainer?‑‑‑Registered, sir, yes.

PN6685

The service of alcohol?‑‑‑RSA, yes, and RCG, yes.

PN6686

What does RCG in paragraph 6 refer to?‑‑‑Responsible conduct of gaming.

PN6687

Each of those training sessions covered not only clubs but any outlet that served alcohol?‑‑‑That's correct, sir.

PN6688

And any outlet that had any form of gaming?‑‑‑That's correct, sir.

*** ALLAN JAMES PETER XXN MR DIXON

PN6689

You are aware, are you, in the capacity as a trainer, that in New South Wales, the Gaming Machines Act applies to clubs that have gaming machines?‑‑‑Yes, sir.

PN6690

Pubs?‑‑‑Yes, sir.

PN6691

Hospitality venues?‑‑‑In what respect are you talking about hospitality there?

PN6692

Other than a pub or club?‑‑‑Only a licensed establishment can have poker machines, have the approval to put in poker machines.

PN6693

The Gaming Machines Act actually specifies hospitality venues, does it not? Do you remember that?‑‑‑It does.

PN6694

It does?‑‑‑But, again, it's got to be approved to have machines on the premises.

PN6695

Sure, but that's one of the regulations?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6696

The Gaming Machines Act applies to resorts that have gaming machines?‑‑‑I don't know.

PN6697

Function venues that have gaming machines?‑‑‑Function venues?

PN6698

Yes?‑‑‑As long as it's a licensed area for gaming machines to be established, then it's approved and then they can be established.

PN6699

Of course, but that's what the Act governs, a function area that has gaming machines?‑‑‑That's right.

PN6700

You conduct a corporate governance course on behalf of the Office of Liquor and Gaming in New South Wales?‑‑‑The corporate governance is the managers' training on the job, sir, yes.

PN6701

That was exhibit 47?‑‑‑The board governance and secretary/manager's course, the big one, the thick one.

PN6702

Did you actually present in relation to this training course?‑‑‑Did I what, sir?

*** ALLAN JAMES PETER XXN MR DIXON

PN6703

Did you participate in delivering these training sessions?‑‑‑Yes, sir, yes.

PN6704

You did?‑‑‑Yes, I certainly did.

PN6705

On more than one occasion?‑‑‑I've probably trained over probably a thousand people, I suppose.

PN6706

Could I ask you to turn to - just stick with the index, for example, you will see page 3 at the top, if you have it - if I have the same copy as you have - the training included the matters listed under "Legal Governance Perspective". Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes, sir.

PN6707

Can the Commission take it that those training sessions were not confined to clubs but extended to any hospitality outlet to which the legislation that you there refer in item 3 extended to?‑‑‑I'm not - I don't follow the question.

PN6708

When these training sessions took place, if you look at item 3, the Registered Clubs Act and the Liquor Act 2007, that's the New South Wales Liquor Act?‑‑‑Right.

PN6709

So when you were giving this training, the Liquor Act training extended to obligations under that Act not only confined to clubs?‑‑‑Anyone could have done it, sir, yes.

PN6710

Anyone could have participated in the training session?‑‑‑Yes, of course they could.

PN6711

Regardless from which part of the hospitality industry they came from?‑‑‑Yes, they could have. It wouldn't have affected - if they were going into a club, yes, that's right, they could have, anyone could have carried it out, yes.

PN6712

People did come and get training even though they weren't employees or managers of clubs under this system?‑‑‑I can't recall any outsiders. I believe they had managers or boards do the course.

PN6713

When you go down to the bottom of that page, "Obligations of hotels and registered clubs" - do you see that?‑‑‑Yes, sir.

*** ALLAN JAMES PETER XXN MR DIXON

PN6714

I take it that the course then included training in respect of the obligations of managers in hotels?‑‑‑No, what the reference there is referring to is the licence difference between a registered club and a hotel, which the solicitors explained to them, and the difference between that and a restaurant, the difference between that and a liquor bar. That was the solicitor's role.

PN6715

The proportion of managers that are paid in excess of the salary rates in the clubs award, would you have knowledge of and a view as to what proportion of managers are paid above the award rates?‑‑‑No, I wouldn't have the faintest idea, sir.

PN6716

Given your length of experience in the club industry, Mr Peter, you have obviously seen quite significant growth in the offerings, food and other offerings, provided by clubs?‑‑‑Definitely, sir.

PN6717

There has been quite a significant expansion in that area in the last, say, eight to 10 years, hasn't there?‑‑‑Well, and truly, sir.

PN6718

In your view, there is a strong trend for clubs to become more expansive and innovative in their food, function and bar outlets to compete with pubs and hotels in the same industry?‑‑‑They've got to compete. If they don't - they can't rely on liquor and gaming to be able to maintain their businesses, particularly the medium to small clubs. They have got to diversify. If they don't diversify, they'll go broke.

PN6719

Diversification includes improving their offerings?‑‑‑That's right, sir.

PN6720

In whatever way they can do it?‑‑‑Not necessarily food or beverage. They might be buying hotel apartments - not hotel - buying units or motel apartments, or whatever it may be, or various other forms of income.

PN6721

You have seen a development in clubs offering accommodation facilities as one such innovative step that must be taken going forward for some clubs to survive?‑‑‑That's what they've done, yes, as external income, yes.

PN6722

That is a recent development that you have noticed in your experience?‑‑‑More so, but it hasn't been just recent, it's probably been going on for about 20 years.

PN6723

But there has been a recent increase of their offerings to become more innovative in that regard, has there not?‑‑‑I think so, sir, yes.

*** ALLAN JAMES PETER XXN MR DIXON

PN6724

When I say "recent", in the last eight to 10 years?‑‑‑No, I'd go longer than that. A lot of clubs tried it before, that diversification in various areas. Motels, a few of them have had them for probably 15 to 20, as I said. There's probably more coming up now because they see a need. They are getting into nursing homes as well. They see a need for that as an external income, but also to help the community, which the clubs are about.

PN6725

But they are also being more innovative in the services that they provide to members and guests?‑‑‑Through the training programs they do, they have been, yes.

PN6726

That is the cross-examination, if the Commission pleases.

PN6727

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination, Mr Cooper?

PN6728

MR COOPER: Yes, thank you.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR COOPER [3.18 PM]

PN6729

MR COOPER: In clause 9 of your statement, you were asked to speculate about specialist managers and there was a discussion about football managers and RSL managers. I am going to ask you, to the best of your knowledge, would a specialist manager also be a company secretary, a chief accountant, a personnel and human resources manager?

PN6730

MR DIXON: This is leading the witness. I am not sure that - - -

PN6731

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think that is a leading question.

PN6732

MR COOPER: Sorry. That's all I've got, thank you.

PN6733

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you for your evidence, Mr Peter, you are excused and you are free to go?‑‑‑Thank you, your Honour.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [3.19 PM]

PN6734

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Anything else we need to deal with today?

*** ALLAN JAMES PETER RXN MR COOPER

PN6735

MR DOWLING: Two matters that I hope might assist. One, my learned friend has provided us with a bundle of documents that he proposes to tender in respect of Mark Unwin and we can indicate we don't object to the tender of the three documents in that bundle, which are the documents behind tabs 1, 3 and 7 of the cross-examination bundle. That's the first matter.

PN6736

As to the second, I am just enquiring as to whether it would be of assistance to the members of the Bench if we were to provide a copy of each of the statements filed on behalf of United Voice with irrelevant parts struck through or deleted consistent with the objections? It may be the members have been doing that as you go.

PN6737

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I don't think that is necessary, Mr Dowling.

PN6738

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour, nothing further.

PN6739

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you.

PN6740

MR DIXON: I will seek to identify for my learned friends what limited extracts of the material put to the witnesses we would seek to tender and, as I hope I indicated earlier, we will try and facilitate a collective way for that material to be presented to all the parties in electronic form, if that is possible.

PN6741

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you. All right, if there is nothing further, we will now adjourn and resume at 10 am on Monday morning.

PN6742

MR DIXON: I beg your pardon, your Honour, I am told by my instructors that the order, as we understood it, has been emailed through to your chambers. I would apologise if it's not perfect because your Honour was fairly quick in explaining it, but I hope that we have captured the matters there.

PN6743

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, thank you. Mr Dowling?

PN6744

MR DOWLING: Sorry, your Honour, there is one other matter. I have been given some instructions about Ms King, who is apparently unwell. We have sent an email to our learned friends - admittedly Mr Dixon has been on his feet - to see if we can come to some accommodation, but if I can just put the Commission on notice of that for the moment. We are conscious of the fact that she is arranged as the first witness at 10 am by video link, so we will endeavour to let the Commission know as a matter of urgency.

PN6745

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, and if there is some other time on Monday that is more convenient, we can rearrange if we are given some notice.

PN6746

MR DOWLING: I think Monday, the whole day is difficult, but we are doing our best.

PN6747

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, all right. We will now adjourn.

ADJOURNED UNTIL MONDAY, 09 JULY 2018 [3.21 PM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART, AFFIRMED........................................ PN5593

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS CROWE............................................... PN5593

EXHIBIT #42 STATEMENT OF GEOFFREY THOMAS STEWART DATED 17/05/2018............................................................................................................................... PN5611

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON..................................................... PN5613

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DOWLING.............................................. PN5768

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN5784

GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN, SWORN............................................................... PN5789

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS CROWE............................................... PN5789

EXHIBIT #43 WITNESS STATEMENT OF GAVIN KIRKMAN DATED 17/05/2018............................................................................................................................... PN5801

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON..................................................... PN5802

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN5901

GAVIN JOHN KIRKMAN, RECALLED....................................................... PN5944

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON, CONTINUING........................ PN5944

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS CROWE............................................................ PN6053

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN6056

TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT, AFFIRMED.................................................. PN6064

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR ARNOLD............................................ PN6064

EXHIBIT #44 STATEMENT OF TIMOTHY JAMES WRIGHT DATED 10/05/2018............................................................................................................................... PN6075

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ARNOLD......................................................... PN6307

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN6321

SHARON TASSELL, SWORN......................................................................... PN6393

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR COOPER............................................. PN6393

EXHIBIT #45 WITNESS STATEMENT OF SHARON TASSELL DATED 10/05/2018............................................................................................................................... PN6405

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON..................................................... PN6409

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR COOPER......................................................... PN6569

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN6572

ALLAN JAMES PETER, SWORN.................................................................. PN6581

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR COOPER............................................. PN6581

EXHIBIT #46 WITNESS STATEMENT OF ALLAN JAMES PETER DATED 09/05/2018............................................................................................................................... PN6608

EXHIBIT #47 CMAA TENDER BUNDLE..................................................... PN6609

EXHIBIT #48 CMAA NOTICE TO MEMBERS DATED 22/06/2018......... PN6610

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON..................................................... PN6611

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR COOPER......................................................... PN6728

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN6733