PN6748

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dowling.

PN6749

MR DOWLING: Yes, good morning members of the Full Bench. Can I firstly deal with the evidence of Ms King. After discussions with my learned friend Mr Dixon he has helpfully provided some agreed findings with respect to the evidence of Ms King, on the basis of which her statement would go in. Can I hand to the Bench please a copy of those documents. So on the basis of those agreed matters between the applicant and United Voice we seek to tender the statement of Ms King. There are no objections to the admissibility of any paragraph and I think, your Honour, we're up to exhibit 49.

PN6750

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Right.

PN6751

MR DOWLING: I wonder if additionally we might separately mark the proposed agreed findings as exhibit 50, if that is convenient.

PN6752

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The statement of Sandra Lillian King dated 14 May 2018 will be marked exhibit 49 and the proposed agreed findings re Sandra King will be marked exhibit 50.

EXHIBIT #49 WITNESS STATEMENT OF SANDRA LILLIAN KING DATED 14/05/2018

EXHIBIT #50 PROPOSED AGREED FINDINGS RE SANDRA KING

PN6753

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour. I should just confirm given past experience that the members of the Bench have the annexure to Ms King's statement which is marked as annexure A and is a series of pay slips.

PN6754

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, we do.

PN6755

MR DOWLING: Thank you very much. The next witness will be Mr Valenti and Ms Burke will deal with Ms Valenti.

PN6756

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Right. So we'll - thank you, Ms Burke, we'll administer the oath or affirmation to Mr Valenti.

PN6757

THE ASSOCIATE: Mr Valenti, can you please state your full name and address?

PN6758

MR VALENTI: Emilio Thomas Valenti, (address supplied).

<EMILIO THOMAS VALENTI, AFFIRMED [10.17 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BURKE [10.17 AM]

PN6759

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Burke.

PN6760

MS BURKE: Mr Valenti, could you please state again your full name for the transcript?‑‑‑Emilio Thomas Valenti.

PN6761

Your address please?‑‑‑(Address supplied).

PN6762

Thank you. Your occupation?‑‑‑Bar supervisor.

PN6763

Thank you. Have you prepared a statement for use in these proceedings?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN6764

Is the document you have there headed "Statement of Emilio Valenti" and it's 19 paragraphs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6765

Is that signed and dated by you on 1 May 2018?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN6766

Is there one annexure marked annexure A to that statement?‑‑‑There is.

PN6767

Your Honour, I just need to make one correction. I've spoken to my friend about that so with leave I will lead that.

PN6768

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN6769

MS BURKE: Mr Valenti, at paragraph 11 of your statement - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6770

- - - the annexure is described there as copies of your rosters for the month of February 2018. Should that be copies of your pay slips for the month of February 2018?‑‑‑Yes, it should.

*** EMILIO THOMAS VALENTI XN MS BURKE

PN6771

Thank you. Thank you, Mr Valenti, could I just ask that you put those other papers that aren't your statement, just pop them down on the - away from the witness box. If you could just put them down on the table in front of you there. Thank you. Keep your statement of course, thank you. Your Honour, with that correction I tender that statement.

PN6772

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Are there any objections?

PN6773

MR DIXON: No objection.

PN6774

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The statement of Emilio Valenti dated 1 May 2018 will be marked exhibit 51.

EXHIBIT #51 WITNESS STATEMENT OF EMILIO THOMAS VALENTI DATED 01/05/2018

PN6775

MS BURKE: Thank you. Mr Valenti, just wait there and there'll be some questions.

PN6776

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON [10.19 AM]

PN6777

MR DIXON: May it please the Commission. Mr Valenti, my name is Dixon and I appear for Clubs Australia Industrial. Are you able to hear me?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN6778

Thank you. You are employed by the Tea Tree Gully Club in South Australia. Is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN6779

For those in the court who are unfamiliar with its location, can you describe the distance that - it's actually in Fairview Park, South Australia?‑‑‑Fairview Park, it's a golf club, yes.

PN6780

How far is it from the CBD of Adelaide?‑‑‑About 25 kilometres.

PN6781

I'd like to ask you some questions about your golf club and its facilities. It has various function rooms, is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN6782

The function rooms are typically used for weddings?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6783

Other special occasions; parties, engagement parties?‑‑‑Yes, all of that, yes.

*** EMILIO THOMAS VALENTI XXN MR DIXON

PN6784

Seminars and conferences?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6785

Corporate golf?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6786

Are those function facilities open to the public as a whole?‑‑‑Yes, they are.

PN6787

It also has bar facilities does it not?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6788

It has a fully equipped bar?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN6789

More than one bar?‑‑‑Two bars in total. One upstairs, one downstairs.

PN6790

Two bars, right. Those bars are also open to the public all day, every day, except on a Monday?‑‑‑The top bar's available six days a week. The bottom bar's not available to the public. It's what they call a spike bar and it's a halfway meeting place for the golfers when they play golf but that one's not available to the public.

PN6791

But the top bar is open to the public on any - six days?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN6792

Are bar facilities also available for functions?‑‑‑Yes, they are.

PN6793

I want to then ask you something about some dining and food offerings. Does the club have a restaurant?‑‑‑Yes, they do.

PN6794

Does it have any other food offerings, a bistro or café or anything like that?‑‑‑No.

PN6795

It also provides does it and correct me if my understanding is incorrect, it provides catering services for functions?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, it does.

PN6796

Are those - I beg your pardon. Are those catering facilities also provided to functions outside of the club?‑‑‑No, they're not.

PN6797

Now again for those who are unfamiliar with the area, can you tell the Commission whether there are pubs in the near facility to your club?‑‑‑There is.

*** EMILIO THOMAS VALENTI XXN MR DIXON

PN6798

How many?‑‑‑Three in total.

PN6799

They are in fairly close proximity?‑‑‑Within five kilometres.

PN6800

And hotels?‑‑‑Sorry, I meant to say hotels, not clubs.

PN6801

So they're pubs in those hotels that - the three you've just described?‑‑‑That's right.

PN6802

Are there any separate bars in the facility not associated with hotels?‑‑‑Do you mean the golf club?

PN6803

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: You said facility, do you mean vicinity?

PN6804

MR DIXON: I withdraw the question. Are there any separate bars that are not associated with the hotels that you've just described?‑‑‑I don't understand the question, I'm sorry.

PN6805

Yes, I'll just try again Mr Valenti. As I understood your evidence you said there are three hotels, each with a pub?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6806

Outside of those hotels are there separate bars to which the public can go?‑‑‑Yes, there would be, yes.

PN6807

In your - close to your own club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6808

How many, do you know?‑‑‑There'd be three.

PN6809

Thank you. Do you - are you familiar with those hotels? Do they have function facilities?‑‑‑They do.

PN6810

Each one of the three?‑‑‑As I'm aware, yes, they all do, yes.

PN6811

Thank you. You indicate that you are a bar supervisor in your club?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** EMILIO THOMAS VALENTI XXN MR DIXON

PN6812

Who do you supervise, Mr Valenti?‑‑‑The bar staff.

PN6813

How many bar staff are there that you supervise?‑‑‑There's only myself and one other on a regular basis and that's on a casual basis and if there's a function there might be three of us in total that look after the functions, in respect to the bar.

PN6814

Are those three all casuals?‑‑‑I'm the full‑time and there'd be two casuals along with that.

PN6815

I see, yes, I beg your pardon. You previously worked at the Adelaide Casino?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN6816

In what capacity did you work there?‑‑‑I started off there as a bar tender and moved on to poker machine attendant; then moved on to the tables, and worked there in total for eight years.

PN6817

If the Commission pleases, that's the cross-examination.

PN6818

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination, Ms Burke?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS BURKE [10.27 AM]

PN6819

MS BURKE: Mr Valenti, you were asked a question about the function facilities available at the Tea Tree Gully Club and about whether members of the public could access that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6820

Do members of the public need to have any association with the club in order to access the function facility?‑‑‑No, they don't.

PN6821

They don't need to be sponsored by a member?‑‑‑No.

PN6822

Thank you.

PN6823

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thanks for your evidence, Mr Valenti. You're excused and you're now free to go?‑‑‑Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.27 AM]

*** EMILIO THOMAS VALENTI RXN MS BURKE

PN6824

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Cooper, the remaining witnesses are yours?

PN6825

MR P COOPER: Yes, they are, your Honour.

PN6826

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So who have we got next?

PN6827

MR COOPER: Mr Matt Dagg.

PN6828

THE ASSOCIATE: Could you please state your full name and address?

PN6829

MR DAGG: Matthew Lee Dagg, (address supplied).

<MATTHEW LEE DAGG, SWORN [10.29 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR COOPER [10.29 AM]

PN6830

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, Mr Cooper?

PN6831

MR COOPER: Could you please tell the Commission your full name?‑‑‑Matthew Lee Dagg.

PN6832

Your address?‑‑‑(Address supplied).

PN6833

What is your occupation?‑‑‑I'm the general manager of the North Burleigh Surf Life Saving Club and the North Burleigh Surf Life Saving Supporters Association.

PN6834

You've made a statement for these proceedings dated 8 May. Do you have a copy of that in front of you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN6835

Is that 16 paragraphs?‑‑‑Yes, sir.

PN6836

Are the contents of that statement true and correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6837

I wish to tender Mr Matt Dagg's statement into evidence.

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XN MR COOPER

PN6838

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any objections?

PN6839

MR DIXON: If the Commission please, there's an objection to the first four sentences of paragraph 16, and I have an updated objections list. We object to that paragraph on the ground of opinion, submission and conclusions.

PN6840

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Cooper?

PN6841

MR COOPER: As the general manager, he is giving some operational view about the likely impact on availability and I think that's within his realms to make such an observation.

PN6842

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That sentence will be admitted. Are there any further objections?

PN6843

MR DIXON: The first four sentences, if your Honour please.

PN6844

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Of 16?

PN6845

MR DIXON: Of 16.

PN6846

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, those sentences will be admitted.

PN6847

MR DIXON: If the Commission pleases.

PN6848

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: If there's no further objections, the statement of Matthew Dagg dated 8 May 2018 will be marked exhibit 52.

EXHIBIT #52 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MATTHEW DAGG DATED 08/05/2018

PN6849

MR COOPER: Mr Dagg, if I could just ask you a couple of brief questions about your statement; in particular, at paragraph 4. I was wondering if you could elaborate a little bit more about the distinction between the Surf Life Saving Supporters Association and the Surf Life Saving Club, the two separate entities?

PN6850

MR DIXON: I object. The paragraph seemed to explain that enough. I don't know what "elaborate a bit more" is intended to do.

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XN MR COOPER

PN6851

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: It's explained in the statement, isn't it, Mr Cooper?

PN6852

MR COOPER: Yes, I was just clarifying to make sure that the distinction between what is the licenced premises and the surf life saving activities and the difference between the two entities, for example, if they've got two separate ABN numbers and the employees identified to both groups, if they're covered by the award. That's simply - I was going to seek clarification on those particular matters, which may not be clear in the statement.

PN6853

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dagg, does the surf life saving club have any employees?‑‑‑Yes, your Honour.

PN6854

How many?‑‑‑Four.

PN6855

What do they do?‑‑‑Administration and the surf sports management.

PN6856

What award is applied to their employment?‑‑‑We use the Clubs Clerical Award.

PN6857

Thank you.

PN6858

Apart from that I won't allow it.

PN6859

MR COOPER: Okay. Thank you. That's all I have, thank you.

PN6860

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Thank you. Mr Dixon?

PN6861

MR DIXON: May it please the Commission.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON [10.33 AM]

PN6862

MR DIXON: Mr Dagg, is it correct that you're a committee member of the Gold Coast zone of the Club Managers' Association?‑‑‑Yes, sir.

PN6863

You are also vice president of the Gold Coast zone of the Club Managers' Association?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XXN MR DIXON

PN6864

How long have you been vice president?‑‑‑Almost a year, sir.

PN6865

How long have you been a committee member?‑‑‑Approximately nine years.

PN6866

What is the role of the Gold Coast zone of the Club Managers' Association?‑‑‑The zone is to bring together a number of colleagues in the club industry for the view of training, networking - as the training, networking and - that's what I'll say it'll be.

PN6867

When you say training, training of what nature?‑‑‑Each quarter the Gold Coast zone of the Club Managers' Association will have a meeting and will invite industry speakers to come in and talk about certain components of the industry. They could be on a range of topics and subject matters, and it's an opportunity to collectively bring a group of likeminded individuals together with sometimes some speakers from another state, also from the club industry.

PN6868

You worked previously at the Gold Coast International Hotel?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6869

When was that?‑‑‑I finished there in 2003.

PN6870

Are you since then familiar with that hotel?‑‑‑Yes, I am.

PN6871

And it has a restaurant?‑‑‑That has three restaurants.

PN6872

And a number of bars?‑‑‑Four bars.

PN6873

A café or coffee shop?‑‑‑Yes, coffee shop. That's in addition to the three restaurants.

PN6874

So coffee shop and three restaurants. A conference facility or facilities?‑‑‑It has a large banquet ballroom that can hold up to 600 people, and 16 other functions rooms.

PN6875

It has a gym?‑‑‑It used to. That was converted to a function room.

PN6876

I see, thank you. And does it still have tennis court facilities?‑‑‑Yes, two courts.

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XXN MR DIXON

PN6877

And it has a bus to transport guests to and from other sites to attend the hotel?‑‑‑When I was working at the hotel it didn't, and it's in my knowledge that it doesn't now.

PN6878

Thank you. The hotel, when you weren't there, employed food and beverage attendants?‑‑‑Food and beverage attendants, yes.

PN6879

Bar attendants?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6880

Chefs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6881

Cooks?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6882

Kitchen attendants?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6883

Gaming attendants?‑‑‑No.

PN6884

Did you work at other hotels?‑‑‑I worked for the Stewarts Hotel Group as a Hotel Manager. And that was a family owned hotel and retail liquor business.

PN6885

Was that post 2003?‑‑‑It was prior to 2003.

PN6886

You taught as a seasonable teacher for hospitality business studies at Gippsland TAFE?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6887

And you taught hospitality courses?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6888

You taught subjects that counted towards the equivalent of a certificate II in Hospitality?‑‑‑Two and three, yes.

PN6889

Two and Three. Did you also teach in relation to certificate IV in hospitality?‑‑‑At that time the qualification may not have been called a certificate IV. It may have had another name, but I don't recall a certificate IV certification at that time. And I am talking about the late nineties.

PN6890

The students in your courses worked in hotels?‑‑‑Hotels and clubs.

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XXN MR DIXON

PN6891

And restaurants?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6892

And bars?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6893

And cafes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6894

And coffee shops?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6895

Can I show you a bundle of these, Mr Dagg. And can I just ask you to turn to tab 2 in that bundle. And you'll see that if you turn to page 17 on the bottom right-hand corner, do you recognise that as a certificate II – it's obviously the updated version, in hospitality?

PN6896

MR COOPER: Your Honour, objection. I'm just wondering how Mr Dagg can comment on a current certificate IV – certificate II when he indicated that he had done that many years ago. So he's got a document in front of him that he is unfamiliar with and I don't think he is able to make comment on. Thank you.

PN6897

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I will allow the question but Mr Dagg, if you can't answer the question, please say so.

PN6898

MR DIXON: Mr Dagg, what I want to ask you is to whether the course content that you taught, whether you can recall, covered principally the same course content as set out in certificate II in hospitality, starting at page 17?‑‑‑In its entirety, I'm not sure but maybe some subject matter is, yes.

PN6899

You recognise a number of subject matters, do you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6900

The vast majority of subject matters, and take your time, are similar to those that you taught?‑‑‑Apart from the TAB, Keno, gaming and perhaps housekeeping services, the food and beverage components are similar to what I taught.

PN6901

Thank you. Can I then ask you to turn to the training t page 19, in the far right-hand corner, and I ask you again to have a look at that material to indicate whether you have the same or similar view to what you expressed in relation to certificate II. In other words, covering essentially the same subject matter?‑‑‑The subject matter from my previous response would be the same as this, there is a food and beverage based component that I taught.

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XXN MR DIXON

PN6902

Yes. Keno and those two qualifications don't apply?‑‑‑No, I did not instruct in those.

PN6903

Thank you. But apart from that you covered this course content as set out in certificate III, starting at page 19?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6904

Can I then ask you to just for clarification, you'll see there is in the bundle at page 28 there's a certificate IV in hospitality and I understood you to say at the time you were teaching there wasn't – was there an equivalent to a certificate IV or is this a recent – I just want you to try and explain to the Commission what you taught above level 3, if anything?‑‑‑When I was teaching, I don't recall teaching subjects in certificate IV, however looking at some of the content it may have been some crossover with food and beverage instruction.

PN6905

Which you would have given in certificate III?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6906

I see. Now you mentioned you have a trade certificate in commercial cookery?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6907

You undertook that training in a TAFE?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6908

And the training was to become a cook?‑‑‑To have the chef's knowledge, yes.

PN6909

Chef's qualifications?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6910

Could I then ask you to turn again in tab 2 to page 15 of the bundle where you'll see there's a certificate II in kitchen operations. Does that certificate cover courses that you undertook, or similar topics, undertook in order to obtain your commercial cookery qualifications?‑‑‑Very similar.

PN6911

Is there anything you identify that you didn't cover?‑‑‑Re -thermalise of children's frozen food, that technology wasn't available in the late eighties.

PN6912

I see. But apart from that?‑‑‑Those subjects are very similar to my study.

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XXN MR DIXON

PN6913

And then can I ask you to turn to certificate III commercial cookery which you'll find starting at page 25. Did you undertake more than Certificate II training in your commercial cookery studies?‑‑‑The subject matter of Certificate III is very consistent with the trade certificate of Commercial Cookery albeit the rethermalisation of chilled and frozen foods.

PN6914

That's the document starting at page 25 in the right-hand column - page?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6915

That qualification was hospitality industry in general, it wasn't in any way confined to clubs. Is that correct?‑‑‑It was a general trade certificate in commercial cooking for all aspects.

PN6916

Yes, to be used in any hospitality?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6917

When you did that training you undertook it at a TAFE?‑‑‑Yes, TAFE of Newcastle.

PN6918

Other people completed the trade certificate, each of those trade certificates at the same time as you?‑‑‑Yes, they did.

PN6919

Can you tell the Commission whether to your knowledge your class participants worked in restaurants?‑‑‑My situation was unique because I was the only management student allowed to complete the trade certificate in commercial cookery. All the other people in that class were actual indentured chefs, yes.

PN6920

Indentured to industry generally?‑‑‑Clubs, hotels and restaurants.

PN6921

Thank you. I then want to ask you some questions about the North Burleigh Surf Life Saving Club Supporters Association. It has a website?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN6922

It has a Facebook page?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6923

It has a restaurant and bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6924

It has a café?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6925

Is that called Nectar?‑‑‑That's a takeaway coffee facility.

PN6926

Is that a takeaway - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XXN MR DIXON

PN6927

It has a function room?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6928

The function room hosts wedding receptions?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6929

It hosts parties?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6930

The function room hosts corporate functions?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6931

It hosts live music events?‑‑‑Not in the function room, no.

PN6932

Anywhere in the association facilities?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN6933

It operates a courtesy bus in summer months to get people to and from the premises?‑‑‑All months of the year, yes.

PN6934

All year round?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6935

The busiest time for the association is weekends and public holidays?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6936

The busiest time for the club associated with it is weekends and public holidays?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6937

In the association you employ food and beverage attendants?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6938

Employ bar attendants?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6939

How many?‑‑‑Is it okay if I look at my statement?

PN6940

Yes, I think you may have mentioned this at paragraph 7, so that's employment by the association that you refer to in that paragraph as I understand it?‑‑‑Yes, sir.

PN6941

Are those figures still current as of now, Mr Dagg?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6942

Thank you. So the 15 working in the bar, those are all bar attendants?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XXN MR DIXON

PN6943

The 23 are working in the restaurant and so you also employ amongst that lot chefs?‑‑‑Yes, we have 13 in the kitchen.

PN6944

Are they - and is there a separate - do you categorise them separately for cooks as opposed to chefs?‑‑‑No.

PN6945

Kitchen attendants are obviously different from chefs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6946

So the 13 working in the kitchen, are there any kitchen attendants amongst those?‑‑‑There would be four.

PN6947

Plus the 13 or inclusive of the 13?‑‑‑Inclusive.

PN6948

Nine chefs plus four?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6949

Thank you. In the facilities provided by the association, the club in Miami is situated in a situation where potential patrons have a wide choice as to where they can go and eat in the immediate area?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6950

They could eat at the restaurant run by the association?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6951

They could eat at a restaurant run by another life saving club in the vicinity?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6952

They could eat at a privately run restaurant in the same vicinity as your club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6953

Sorry, as the association. They could eat at a pub close by?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6954

They could eat at a fast food outlet close by?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6955

They could eat at a food court in a shopping centre close by?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6956

You will see, if I may draw your attention to paragraph 10 of your statement, you refer there to:

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XXN MR DIXON

PN6957

There is extensive hospitality business which provide considerable competition.

PN6958

I take it that those outlets that I've just asked you about where people - patrons could go and eat are all providing considerable competition to your association and the services it provides?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6959

I think you also mention that there are suburban hotels close by providing that level of competition?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6960

For the same sort of food offerings and other services that your association provides?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6961

Now it's correct is it not that there are very large numbers of non-members that visit your club per annum?‑‑‑Yes, we sign in approximately 300,000 visitors a year.

PN6962

You refer to that in paragraph 4 of your statement I think?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6963

Just explain that. It means these are non-member visitors that could at any time come in and the only requirement is that they sign in or is there a geographical limit associated with their right to have the benefit of the facilities of it?‑‑‑Queensland licensing legislation states that you must - to enter the club just sign in you must live outside of a 15 kilometre radius. Within a 15 kilometre radius you have to be a member of our club or another club.

PN6964

So of the 300,000 non-members, they are outside of that zone if they are complying with that limitation that you've described?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6965

All of those persons have the ability to access the facilities offered by the association?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6966

And by the club?‑‑‑Only the association.

PN6967

Only the association.

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XXN MR DIXON

PN6968

COMMISSIONER HAMPTON: Mr Dagg, what does it cost? What's the annual or bi-annual membership, whatever, system you run?‑‑‑Annual membership is $10 a year for the member to be a member of the association.

PN6969

Thank you.

PN6970

MR DIXON: Can you pay your $10 on admission so that you're a member if you live in the 15 kilometre limit?‑‑‑Yes, you can.

PN6971

Instantly you hand over your $10 and that gives you access for a year if you are a "local" within the 15 kilometres?‑‑‑Yes, and your membership is reviewed by the board of management on a monthly basis. So new members will be reviewed.

PN6972

Just explain that. For what purpose?‑‑‑Our constitution states that the members have to be accepted by the board of management.

PN6973

I see, so there's an approval unless there's some undesirable character or characters seeking access?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6974

I see.

PN6975

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So if a group turns up at the club and they're within the 15 ks, is it right that one can join and then the others become guests of the member, is that the way it works?‑‑‑We like to apply the law to every single person that comes into the club. A member could sign in a visitor but if a group of people all live within 15 kilometres by rights they should all be members.

PN6976

So members don't have a right to sign in a guest who's within 15 kilometres?‑‑‑We don't allow that, no.

PN6977

Thank you.

PN6978

MR DIXON: The profits from the association are provided to the club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6979

What was the profit last year, do you know?‑‑‑It was about $600,000.

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XXN MR DIXON

PN6980

Has that been increasing over the past five years?‑‑‑It remains quite static. Parts of our business are at saturation point, and those business levels remain quite static.

PN6981

So there are significant challenges to try and maintain that profit level, is that correct?‑‑‑At times, yes.

PN6982

Are there other clubs on the Gold Coast that you're familiar with, such as the Coolangatta Surf Life Saving Club?‑‑‑I am familiar with that club, yes.

PN6983

It has a restaurant?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6984

I think it's the Surf Club Coolangatta restaurant recently won a dining award, do you know that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6985

Has a café?‑‑‑It may offer a café service within the restaurant.

PN6986

Yes?‑‑‑But it's not a separate outlet.

PN6987

I understand. It has a bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6988

To your knowledge it hosts entertainment, like live music entertainment from time‑to‑time?‑‑‑I can't confirm that, sir.

PN6989

It has a gaming room with gaming machines?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6990

Mr Dagg, you are aware, are you, that the Club Managers' Association has a magazine that it publishes on a fairly regular basis?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6991

Do you receive that magazine as a manager?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6992

To your knowledge it covers a range of issues of interest to club managers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6993

It address current issues?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XXN MR DIXON

PN6994

And you regard it and accept it as a form of information source for managers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6995

And it from time‑to‑time provides details about industrial matters?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6996

You would expect if there were any changes to the Clubs Award or the Hospitality Award, a merged award coming out of these proceedings, that you would receive advice through the magazine as one source about the changes effected by the Commission?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6997

And you would regard there would be other sources of information that you would expect to receive from the Club Managers' Association about the topic, such as an immediate circular informing you of any changes that you should be aware of?‑‑‑Yes.

PN6998

Do you contact the Club Managers' Association from time‑to‑time for advice on any employment or industrial issue that concerns you?‑‑‑From time‑to‑time, as the need arises.

PN6999

The North Burleigh Surf Life Saving Club is a member of Clubs Queensland, is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7000

And you're aware that Clubs Queensland has an advice line?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7001

And currently members can ring the advice line to obtain advice on the Clubs Award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7002

Have you done so from time-to-time?‑‑‑Yes, we have.

PN7003

If there was a merged award, you would expect that the advice line would be able to provide you with assistance in respect of any issue arising from the interpretation of such a merged award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7004

Does Clubs Queensland, to your knowledge, prepare information sheets on current issues for managers or clubs?‑‑‑Clubs Queensland send out newsletters, and within those newsletters will be links to relevant documentation with updates.

PN7005

Including updates about industrial award matters?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XXN MR DIXON

PN7006

Or any changes to an award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7007

And if there was a merged award coming out of these proceedings, you would expect Clubs Queensland to provide you with information and details of any changes resulting from a merged award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7008

You're aware that Clubs Queensland has a website?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7009

A specific section for members?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7010

You access that from time-to-time, or your staff?‑‑‑Yes; my management team do, yes.

PN7011

The section for members addresses award issues?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7012

And if there was a merged award coming out of these proceedings, you would expect that your managers could use that as a tool for information?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7013

Are you aware of the fact that the Fair Work Commission prepares allowance tables, and if you look at the bundle of documents in front of you and you turn to tab 7, are you familiar with the information as there depicted, starting at page 92, published from time‑to‑time about awards including the Clubs Award by the Fair Work Commission?‑‑‑I haven't seen this information presented in this format.

PN7014

But are you aware that the Fair Work Commission does publish material on allowances that assists employers and employees to see what their obligations and entitlements are in respect of allowances?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7015

Can I ask you to turn back then, if you will, to tab 5? Are you aware of the fact that the Fair Work Ombudsman publishes a pay guide for awards, including the Registered and Licensed Clubs Award 2010?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7016

You have seen the website in the format that is set out at tab 5?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7017

You have utilised it from time-to-time?‑‑‑Yes.

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XXN MR DIXON

PN7018

You don't see any difficulty if there was a merged award out of these proceedings changing things that and the Fair Work Ombudsman responded that you would continue to have access to such publication to aid you?‑‑‑Could you please explain?

PN7019

Yes. If there were changes brought about by a merged award in these proceedings, you would expect the Fair Work Ombudsman would change its pay guide as a result of it, would you not?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7020

And you would continue to access that pay guide for any guidance if you had any queries about what the merged award produced?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7021

Are you familiar with the tool provided by the Fair Work Ombudsman called the PACT, which is behind tab 6?‑‑‑No.

PN7022

Can I then ask you to turn to paragraph 11 and paragraph 12 of your statement, which is exhibit 52, and I simply want to ask you, you will see in each of those paragraphs, the first sentence is in the form of a question. Who posed those questions to you?‑‑‑The Club Managers' Association.

PN7023

I want to ask you some questions in relation to managers. How many managers does the association employ?‑‑‑I have nine in the management team.

PN7024

Are each of those nine managers paid a salary?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7025

Does the salary exceed the rate set out for the relevant classification in the award?‑‑‑No.

PN7026

Do you know which classification, say, those nine managers fit into?‑‑‑They are varied.

PN7027

Yes. How many do you have in the lower rate?‑‑‑I don't know if I can answer that at this stage.

PN7028

Would you be assisted by looking at the award?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7029

I draw your attention to clause 17 of the Clubs Award 2010, Mr Dagg, thank you?‑‑‑I have managers on level A.

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XXN MR DIXON

PN7030

How many?‑‑‑Four.

PN7031

And are they paid a salary?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7032

Does that salary include at least the loading, on top of the – the 20 per cent loading to remove the obligation to pay some entitlements like penalty rates and the like?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7033

And do they get paid over the 20 per cent? In other words, there's a top up on top of the 20 per cent?‑‑‑No.

PN7034

So that leaves five managers. Where are the other five?‑‑‑I have one on level D, one on level C, and the balance on level B.

PN7035

So that means there would be three on B?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7036

And are they paid the rate in the award plus 20 per cent?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7037

Anything over 20 per cent?‑‑‑No.

PN7038

And D, the rate in D, that's the award rate plus 20 per cent?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7039

Anything above 20 per cent?‑‑‑No.

PN7040

And the managers at C, plus 20 per cent?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7041

Anything over 20 per cent?‑‑‑No.

PN7042

In relation to the club, does the club employ any managers?‑‑‑Yes, an office manager and a service supports manager.

PN7043

Where do you classify those two managers by reference to the classification structure you've just referred to?‑‑‑Level A and level D.

PN7044

So the office manager is level?‑‑‑D.

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XXN MR DIXON

PN7045

And the other manager?‑‑‑Level A.

PN7046

Level A. The level D manager gets paid above the rate plus 20 per cent?‑‑‑No.

PN7047

The rate plus 20 per cent?‑‑‑Sorry, the rate plus 20 per cent, yes.

PN7048

But not above the 20 per cent?‑‑‑Not above the 20 per cent no.

PN7049

Right. And the level A manager?‑‑‑The rate plus 20 per cent.

PN7050

Thank you, Mr Dagg. Can I ask you to turn your attention then to the document behind tab 8 of the tender bundle. Have you seen that document before?‑‑‑No.

PN7051

And will you look at the document behind tab 9. Has that document come to your attention before and do you recognise it?‑‑‑No.

PN7052

The document behind tab 10, do you recognise that document?‑‑‑No.

PN7053

Can I just clarify one further matter with you, and I apologise I'm going back, in relation to your service of food outlet, which is described as Nectar, N-e-c-t-a-r, Espresso - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7054

I think you said that that's more like a fast food – does the general public have access to that facility in order to obtain coffee at any time?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7055

You don't have to be a member?‑‑‑No.

PN7056

And you don't have to be signed in at all in order to get access to that facility?‑‑‑The outlet serves direct to the public outside of the club.

PN7057

Yes, thank you. Thank you, Mr Dagg. As the Commission pleases, that's the cross-examination.

PN7058

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination, Mr Cooper?

*** MATTHEW LEE DAGG XXN MR DIXON

PN7059

MR COOPER: No, your Honour, thank you.

PN7060

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you for your evidence, Mr Dagg. You are excused and you're free to go?‑‑‑Thank you, your Honour.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.12 AM]

PN7061

Is Ms Clegg next?

PN7062

MR COOPER: Yes, your Honour.

PN7063

MR DIXON: I will seek to tender the relevant extracts from the tender bundle to which I referred, and can I treat it on the same way as we did before, we will extract those and formally tender all of the extracts from the tender bundles before we - - -

PN7064

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Are we going to do that some time today?

PN7065

MR DIXON: Yes, sure.

PN7066

THE ASSOCIATE: Would you please state your full name and address.

PN7067

MS CLEGG: Zoe Janet Clegg, (address supplied).

<ZOE JANET CLEGG, AFFIRMED [11.14 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR COOPER [11.14 AM]

PN7068

MR COOPER: Could you tell the Commission your full name?‑‑‑Zoe Clegg.

PN7069

What is your address?‑‑‑(Address supplied).

PN7070

Your occupation?‑‑‑Self-employed.

PN7071

You have made a statement for these proceedings?‑‑‑Yes.

*** ZOE JANET CLEGG XN MR COOPER

PN7072

A copy of that statement is in front of you. Is there any correction you'd like to make to that statement, and in particular I draw your attention to number 2, your employment with the Club Managers' Association?‑‑‑Yes. I have recently resigned from the CMA.

PN7073

So the statement containing 23 paragraphs?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN7074

The remainder are true and correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7075

We'd like to admit that as evidence, thank you.

PN7076

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any objections, Mr Dixon?

PN7077

MR DIXON: Yes, your Honour. Does your Honour have only the latest - - -

PN7078

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I don't think so.

PN7079

MR DIXON: I'm sorry, I - The first group of objections are paragraphs 5, 6 and 7 and your Honours will - the Commission will see that the objections is relevance, submission and conclusion, in relation to 7 and relevance of 5 and 6.

PN7080

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What do you say about paragraph 7, Mr Cooper?

PN7081

MR COOPER: Yes, it is expressing a point of view and in line with your previous rulings we don't press number 7.

PN7082

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Right, so paragraphs 5 and 6 will be admitted, paragraph 7 is not pressed and will be struck from the statement.

PN7083

MR DIXON: The next paragraph, if your Honour pleases, is paragraph 21 - I beg your pardon, the second sentence of paragraph 20.

PN7084

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That sentence will be admitted.

PN7085

MR DIXON: Paragraph 21, the whole of - paragraph 21, 22 and 23 are really in the same category and at least - - -

*** ZOE JANET CLEGG XN MR COOPER

PN7086

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What's wrong with 21?

PN7087

MR DIXON: The relevance of making a strategic decision about being responsive.

PN7088

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Paragraph 21 will be admitted.

PN7089

MR DIXON: 22 and 23 are clearly in the form of some form of submission and at points demonstrate and the like, it's not evidence of any probative value.

PN7090

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Cooper, paragraph 23 where it says:

PN7091

There are whole communities that rely on penalty rates.

PN7092

MR COOPER: That's expressing a view or opinion so we don't press that.

PN7093

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Right, paragraph 22 will be admitted, paragraph 23 is not pressed and will be struck out.

PN7094

MR DIXON: Commission pleases.

PN7095

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The statement of Zoe Clegg undated will be marked as exhibit 53.

EXHIBIT #53 WITNESS STATEMENT OF ZOE CLEGG, UNDATED

PN7096

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON [11.18 AM]

PN7097

MR DIXON: Prior to you taking up your employment with the Club Managers Association, Ms Clegg, you worked at the Kedron-Wavell Services Club in Queensland?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN7098

What role did you perform there?‑‑‑I was the training and compliance manager.

PN7099

Did you train people in respect of RSA qualification?‑‑‑Yes.

*** ZOE JANET CLEGG XXN MR DIXON

PN7100

You understood that that responsible service of alcohol qualification was applied across the hospitality industry and wasn't confined to clubs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7101

Did you complete an apprenticeship at any stage?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7102

I'm sorry?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7103

Yes, and did you complete a traineeship?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7104

What was the apprenticeship that you completed?‑‑‑Commercial cookery.

PN7105

Commercial cookery, and when was that?‑‑‑2000-and - sorry, 1999.

PN7106

That equipped you to be employed in the hospitality industry generally did it not?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7107

What traineeship did you complete?‑‑‑Certificate III in Hospitality and a Diploma of Hospitality.

PN7108

Again, you understood that was hospitality industry generally?‑‑‑(No audible response.)

PN7109

Kedron-Wavell Club, when you were employed, had a restaurant?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7110

More than one or - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7111

Were there three were there?‑‑‑Three, yes.

PN7112

Had a café?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7113

Had a bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7114

More than one bar or just one Gallipoli bar?‑‑‑More than one bar.

*** ZOE JANET CLEGG XXN MR DIXON

PN7115

More than one. Gallipoli bar and others?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7116

Did it put on live shows for visitors or members?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7117

Did it have live entertainment?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7118

Did it employ bar attendants?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7119

Kitchen hands?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7120

Gaming attendants?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7121

That club employed part-time employees?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7122

It employed casual employees?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7123

In your experience the club employed more part-time employees than full-time employees?‑‑‑No.

PN7124

Do you know what percentage?‑‑‑Probably 60 to 40 with full-time employees being at the more - - -

PN7125

Full-time/part-time basis 40?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7126

The busiest times for that club were typically weekends and public holidays?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7127

Did the club have a function room?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7128

What was the function room used for?‑‑‑All types of events, weddings, funerals.

PN7129

Were those function facilities open to the public?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7130

You didn't have to be a member to come to a function put on. Is that the case?‑‑‑Yes.

*** ZOE JANET CLEGG XXN MR DIXON

PN7131

What about any of the others, did you - could you come to the bar as a member of - the Gallipoli bar as a member of the public or did you have to be a member?‑‑‑You had to be a member.

PN7132

Now in your statement in paragraph 19 and go to it if you need to, you refer to school based apprenticeships. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7133

That apprenticeship to your knowledge could be a chef?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7134

A cook for commercial cookery?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7135

Hospitality operations?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7136

An apprentice could be in horticulture?‑‑‑No.

PN7137

You may complete a TAFE course as part of the apprenticeship?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7138

You understood it that for a chef in that position, Certificate II in Kitchen Operations would be such an apprenticeship course?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7139

Certificate III in Commercial Cookery for a chef and a cook?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7140

Certificate IV in Commercial Cookery could apply to a chef?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7141

Are you familiar with the current certificates in hospitality, Certificates II, III and IV?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7142

May I ask you to look at these documents please? If you look behind tab 1, do you recognise that as a current Certificate II in Hospitality qualification details?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7143

If you go behind tab 2, do you recognise the Certificate III in Hospitality qualification details as there set out as the current certificate and course components?‑‑‑Yes.

*** ZOE JANET CLEGG XXN MR DIXON

PN7144

If you go behind tab 3 and look at the same issue, qualification details which is Certificate IV in Hospitality?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7145

Thank you. In the case of a bar attendance, they may complete a Certificate II in Hospitality?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7146

In the case of a bar attendant they may also complete a Certificate III in Hospitality?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7147

In the case of a bar attendant they may complete a Certificate IV in Hospitality if for example they wish to become a supervisor of a bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7148

In the case of a food and beverage attendant, they may complete a Certificate II in Hospitality?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7149

In the case of a food and beverage attendant, they would complete a Certificate III in Hospitality?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7150

And in the case of a food and beverage attendant, they may complete a Certificate IV in Hospitality if they wish to become the supervisor of a bar?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7151

In the same paragraph that I took you to earlier, paragraph 19, you refer to traineeships?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7152

They allow 11 and 12 Year students to leave school with a qualification. Those traineeships could be hospitality traineeships?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7153

And they could be horticultural - no?‑‑‑No.

PN7154

Could I then draw your attention, if I may, to paragraph 14 of your statement? Just read that for yourself. You refer there to a range of services provided by clubs now overlap with a range of services provided in other hospitality establishments. Can you tell the Commission what the range of services are that you refer to?‑‑‑Bar service, food and beverage, gaming functions.

PN7155

During the period that you were employed by the organisation, you were professional development manager and conducted various courses?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

*** ZOE JANET CLEGG XXN MR DIXON

PN7156

For the association members?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7157

Are you aware that during the period that you were employed that - you may not have conducted these courses - that the association provided courses for managers on award interpretation?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7158

Did they occur regularly?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7159

Who conducted those courses?‑‑‑Myself and a few of our trainers.

PN7160

Sorry?‑‑‑Other trainers that we had on staff would conduct the training.

PN7161

And to your knowledge, that such courses will continue to be provided by the association?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7162

No further cross‑examination.

PN7163

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination, Mr Cooper?

PN7164

MR COOPER: No, your Honour.

PN7165

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you for your evidence, Ms Clegg. You're excused and free to go.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.29 AM]

PN7166

MR DIXON: Your Honours, I will in due course seek to tender tabs 1, 2 and 3.

PN7167

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Cooper, is Mr Hiscox available now, or do we need to wait till 2?

PN7168

MR COOPER: I believe he's about 10 to 15 minutes away. He's coming up from Dapto. We had scheduled him for after lunch today but we've got him to come up earlier, but he's not here yet.

*** ZOE JANET CLEGG XXN MR DIXON

PN7169

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is it convenient when he gets here to hear his evidence?

PN7170

MR COOPER: Yes, it is.

PN7171

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Well we might take an adjournment to allow him to arrive and to settle in.

PN7172

MR COOPER: Yes.

PN7173

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So can you advise my associate when he's ready to give evidence?

PN7174

MR COOPER: I shall do.

PN7175

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I also note that the objections document contains a large number of objections to his statement. Can I encourage the parties' representative perhaps to discuss and attempt to resolve some or all of those objections during the break? We'll now adjourn.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.30 AM]

RESUMED [12.05 PM]

PN7176

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Cooper, so the parties want to deal with the objections first do they?

PN7177

MR COOPER: Yes, thank you. There's quite a number of them. I'll go to paragraph 20 of Mr Hiscox's statement. We do not read paragraph 20; 23 is in; 24, we do not read; 25, we do not read; 26, the objection is withdrawn but it's noted that Ms Hiscox is expressing his opinion at 26.

PN7178

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN7179

MR COOPER: Twenty-seven, we do not read; 28, we do not read; 29, we do not read; 31, we didn't reach agreement on 31. The Association's position is that as the club's general manager he has done a rough calculation to his knowledge of the impact if there was a reduction in penalty rates.

PN7180

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So is that in or out?

PN7181

MR COOPER: We didn't reach any understanding on that.

PN7182

MR DIXON: We maintain our objection to that paragraph on the basis that there is nothing to support it, if the Commission pleases.

PN7183

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, we'll come back to the pressed objections in a minute. Just tell us what's agreed, is going to be struck out.

PN7184

MR COOPER: All right, 36, we do not read; the second paragraph of 37, we do not read – sentence, sorry.

PN7185

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: "I wouldn't know a hotel," that sentence?

PN7186

MR COOPER: Yes, "I wouldn't know a hotel in Australia of employees 150." And for the last paragraph, again, it's expressing a view, so that's in.

PN7187

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, which paragraph?

PN7188

MR COOPER: Sorry, the last sentence of paragraph 37 is in, but noting that it's an opinion.

PN7189

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: It's in, all right.

PN7190

MR COOPER: Thirty-nine, I do not read

PN7191

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: ; 40, there's no objection there, that's in; 41, I do not read; 43, I do not read.

PN7192

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That's 41, 43 - - -

PN7193

MR COOPER: Forty-seven, I do not read; 48, I do not read; 49, I do not read; and 51 to 59, I do not read.

PN7194

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, Mr Dixon, which objections remain that are still pressed?

PN7195

MR DIXON: Just paragraph 31.

PN7196

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Paragraph 31.

PN7197

MR DIXON: Yes.

PN7198

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Paragraph 31 will be admitted.

PN7199

MR COOPER: Thank you. I would now like to call Mr David Hiscox.

PN7200

THE ASSOCIATE: Could you please state your full name and address.

PN7201

MR HISCOX: David Mark Hiscox, (address supplied).

<DAVID MARK HISCOX, AFFIRMED [12.10 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR COOPER [12.10 PM]

PN7202

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, Mr Cooper?

PN7203

MR COOPER: Thank you. Mr Hiscox, for the record, could you please advise this Commission of your full name?‑‑‑David Mark Hiscox.

PN7204

What is your address?‑‑‑(Address supplied).

PN7205

What is your occupation?‑‑‑I'm the CEO and Company Secretary of Dapto Leagues Club.

PN7206

You have prepared a statement for these proceedings. Do you have a copy of that statement with you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7207

It's numbering 59 paragraphs, is that correct?‑‑‑Correct.

PN7208

This was signed by you and not dated, is that correct?‑‑‑Correct.

PN7209

And the contents of that statement, are they true and correct?‑‑‑Correct.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XN MR COOPER

PN7210

I tender that statement, thank you, your Honour.

PN7211

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, so the undated statement of David Hiscox will, subject to the earlier omissions and rulings, be marked as exhibit 54.

PN7212

MR COOPER: Thank you.

EXHIBIT #54 UNDATED STATEMENT OF DAVID HISCOX

PN7213

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Dixon?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON [12.12 PM]

PN7214

MR DIXON: Thank you, Commissioner. Mr Hiscox, the Dapto Leagues Club, is it correct that it's in the Wollongong region of New South Wales?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7215

Just south of Sydney?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7216

And you are a member of the Federal Council of the CMA?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7217

You have been a representative of the Illawarra South Coast Division of the CMA for some time?‑‑‑No longer.

PN7218

Yes, and what was your role when you were a representative?‑‑‑For the Illawarra South Coast though?

PN7219

Yes?‑‑‑I started as education officer and finished up as president.

PN7220

What is the role of an education officer?‑‑‑Was to organise the distribution of funds to education managers in the local area.

PN7221

About matters involving the employees?‑‑‑In regards to matters relating to management.

PN7222

And industrial award matters?‑‑‑There may have been training on that.

PN7223

Yes, and is there now someone training in that area after you've moved on, to your knowledge?‑‑‑There has.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XXN MR DIXON

PN7224

Yes. Who is that?‑‑‑That is Matthew Grant.

PN7225

You were president of the CMA in 2015 and 2016?‑‑‑Correct.

PN7226

Who is the current president?‑‑‑I'm the current president, yes.

PN7227

You're the current president. Now the CMA structures itself into zones. What is the overall purpose of those zones?‑‑‑To represent the Association at a more local level.

PN7228

Dapto Leagues Club moved at some stage with the Grange Golf Club, is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7229

When did that occur?‑‑‑2007, I think, was the year it was finalised.

PN7230

But do the two clubs still continue to operate?‑‑‑Correct.

PN7231

But under the one entity?‑‑‑One entity under the Registered Clubs Act, two entities in relation to gaming machines.

PN7232

What is the entity for the Registered Clubs Act?‑‑‑Dapto Leagues Club Limited.

PN7233

I'm sorry, Dapto Leagues Club really has the two clubs, the Grange Golf Club, and it also operates the Dapto Leagues Club?‑‑‑Correct.

PN7234

And for the Gaming Act, do they each get separately - - -?‑‑‑Separate for duty purposes.

PN7235

And they've got to comply separately with their obligations?‑‑‑(No audible reply).

PN7236

Are they in relative close proximity to each other, these companies?‑‑‑Within five kilometres.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XXN MR DIXON

PN7237

What are the facilities provided by the Dapto Leagues Club?‑‑‑The Leagues Club premises provides a number of dining venues, a number of beverage venues, a sports bar, a showroom for entertainment, and Asian restaurant and a gaming facility.

PN7238

The dining options are?‑‑‑There's a lobby bar, which is a café style offering, a brasserie which is contemporary casual dining for about 500 people.

PN7239

About 500?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7240

Separate from the lobby bar does it have other bars?‑‑‑There's a sports bar, sports lounge, brasserie bar, palladium bar.

PN7241

All right. Now it has function facilities?‑‑‑Yes, sorry, yes.

PN7242

What are the - how large is the function facility?‑‑‑Function facility at Dapto is 180 to 200 people.

PN7243

What sort of functions are catered for?‑‑‑They'll range from meetings from any of the local community or sporting groups up to weddings and anything in-between 50th birthdays, 21sts, the room would be used quite often.

PN7244

So that if you have a function for a 21st with 200 people, you don't have to be a member to come along. Is that the case?‑‑‑To come into a club? Yes, you need to be a member.

PN7245

So the function can only be provided for members or guests of members?‑‑‑Or guests of members.

PN7246

So they can sign in as many as they like if you have a function of that kind?‑‑‑If your constitution permits it, yes.

PN7247

But does the Dapto Leeds Club constitution permit it?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN7248

So that means that if a proud father wants to put on an engagement party for his daughter, 200 guests can be invited and none of them have to be members of the club?‑‑‑No, but they've got to be signed in as a guest of the member.

PN7249

But that's the only requirement?‑‑‑And they have to stay in the vicinity or the immediate vicinity of the person that signed them in.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XXN MR DIXON

PN7250

In the function venue - - -?‑‑‑In essence, yes.

PN7251

Thank you. Now the facilities of the Grange Golf Club, can you just go through those for us. Does it have - what food offerings does it have?‑‑‑It has a café, it has a bar, it has a pro shop, pro shop retail golf shop, 18 hole championship golf course and a function facility.

PN7252

Any restaurant?‑‑‑Just the café.

PN7253

Just a café. And one or more bar?‑‑‑One bar in the club house facility and one in the function room.

PN7254

Can the Commission take it that the example I gave you about the engagement party would equally apply to the function facility for a party at the Grange Golf Club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7255

Are you familiar with the Mercure Gerringong Resort?‑‑‑No.

PN7256

The Shell Haven Resort and Conference - Shell Harbour Resort and Conference Centre?‑‑‑Shell Harbour - - -

PN7257

Resort and Conference Centre?‑‑‑No.

PN7258

Just bear with me for a moment please. Are you familiar with any resorts close by to either of the clubs that you've just described?‑‑‑Resorts, no.

PN7259

Any other golf clubs?‑‑‑There's - close by there's another four, five golf clubs within the - I guess what you'd called Illawarra.

PN7260

And can you identify those please Mr Hiscox?‑‑‑Yes, there'd be Russell Vale, Wollongong, Port Kembla, Shellharbour Links and Calderwood and ourselves, I think that covers them.

PN7261

I missed the last one?‑‑‑Calderwood.

PN7262

Calderwood, thank you.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XXN MR DIXON

PN7263

Are you familiar with each one of those?‑‑‑In general terms.

PN7264

Are you familiar with the food and beverage offerings of those clubs?‑‑‑Wollongong and Port Kembla are similar to us.

PN7265

Just so - - -?‑‑‑As a club.

PN7266

When you say similar to you, similar to which one of your two clubs?‑‑‑The golf facility.

PN7267

The golf facility, and so that would be they have food offerings, restaurant. I'm talking about Wollongong?‑‑‑Wollongong has a restaurant and yes, and the same function rooms, pro shop.

PN7268

Bars?‑‑‑Bars.

PN7269

The same rules apply for the use of the - - -?‑‑‑It's a members only club.

PN7270

It's a members only club. What about Port Kembla. So Port Kembla is the same as you've just described it?‑‑‑I believe - I'm not 100 per cent whether it has a restaurant or how it operates its food but I think essentially the same as the other golf clubs, with a function room, 18 hole golf course.

PN7271

And a bar?‑‑‑And a bar.

PN7272

And Russell - - -?‑‑‑Both those have gaming machines as well.

PN7273

Sorry, each of those?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7274

Wollongong's got gaming machines?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7275

Port Kembla's got gaming machines?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7276

I may have omitted, do each of your two clubs have gaming machines?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XXN MR DIXON

PN7277

The Russell Golf Club?‑‑‑No, sorry, it only runs as a golf club from what I understand. I don't - I don't - I think it runs like a pro shop retail type area that you might be able to buy some items of food and it's not a member course.

PN7278

So it's a public course in that case?‑‑‑A public course.

PN7279

Have you visited it?‑‑‑Not - - -

PN7280

Does it have a bar to - - -?‑‑‑No, well at the time I went no. I don't know whether it does now.

PN7281

What about Shellharbour Links?‑‑‑Shellharbour Links has a golf course and then its club house is operated I believe under a hotel licence.

PN7282

What hotel licence is that?‑‑‑I don't know.

PN7283

What facilities does that have?‑‑‑I believe it has a food offering, a bar and I believe it's got gaming machines but I'm not 100 per cent.

PN7284

As a hotel licence does it have accommodation?‑‑‑No.

PN7285

Calderwood?‑‑‑Calderwood's a privately owned course and just charges the public but not a hotel, not a club.

PN7286

So keen golfing enthusiasts can knock on the door and have a game?‑‑‑If you want to pay, yes.

PN7287

You don't have to be a member?‑‑‑No.

PN7288

What are the facilities at that club?‑‑‑I believe it has a shed with a person there to take money and it may sell pies and sausage pies, I think, but I - - -

PN7289

Yes, it's a small operation is it, to your knowledge?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7290

What about West Illawarra, are you familiar with that?‑‑‑West Illawarra, yes.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XXN MR DIXON

PN7291

Can you tell the Commission what type of club that is?‑‑‑It's a registered club, similar to ours.

PN7292

Similar to - - -?‑‑‑The Dapto Leeds Club or the Grange Golf Club, we're all clubs by limited guarantee.

PN7293

What are the facilities for West Illawarra?‑‑‑They would be the same as ours.

PN7294

When you say - the same as your golf club or the same as the other club?‑‑‑The same - they're essentially the same, there's food, beverage, gaming, functions, entertainment.

PN7295

For functions the same rules to your knowledge apply as applies to yours you think?‑‑‑Yes, it's the same for any registered club.

PN7296

Now the Dapto Leeds Club employs I think you said 142 permanent employees?‑‑‑140 employees.

PN7297

Now 140?‑‑‑142, yes.

PN7298

I'm sorry?‑‑‑It'd be - it'd be around that but not permanent employees.

PN7299

Yes, how many are part-time?‑‑‑(No audible response.)

PN7300

Perhaps we should clarify this. Do you have a copy of your statement handy?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7301

Paragraph 11, you say that the Dapto Leeds Club, and I take it that - is that employees employed in that club and not in your golf club, the Grange?‑‑‑Well we'd have - it'd be - we would have about 146 employees but not 142 of them are permanent.

PN7302

Well let's just clarify that. You described earlier that you have the merged clubs?‑‑‑M'mm.

PN7303

The 146 employees, which club are they employed in?‑‑‑Both.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XXN MR DIXON

PN7304

Both, the combination is 146?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7305

Of those 146, the figure of 142 is not correct. Of the 146, do you know how many employees are permanent full-time?‑‑‑I would estimate probably 40.

PN7306

Permanent part-time?‑‑‑Would be the rest, the four casuals I know is correct.

PN7307

Sorry, there are only four casuals?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7308

I see, so of the 146 you've got - have I got it right, 40 full-time, four casuals and the balance are - - -?‑‑‑Part-time.

PN7309

- - - permanent part-time?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7310

Are they employed in all of those facilities that you've described earlier for each of the two clubs?‑‑‑Not all employees can work across both, but some can.

PN7311

But in each case, the employees allocated to the Dapto Leagues Club would perform work in the offerings of facilities that we described - food, alcohol, function centre and the like?‑‑‑Not all staff could work across all of those areas.

PN7312

No, I understand that; I put it badly. One or more employee can work in each of those categories?‑‑‑Each or multiple of.

PN7313

Yes, and the same applies out of that number in relation to your golf club?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7314

Do some of the employees move from one to the other?‑‑‑There would be some, and just in relation to specific greenkeepers, the people that work on the golf course, no, they don't. They are specific to the golf course. They don't work in the hospitality sections of the business.

PN7315

Yes, I understand. Can I then ask you to turn your attention to paragraph 16 of your statement, exhibit 54?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN7316

You there refer to your major competitors, I take it for each of your two clubs?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XXN MR DIXON

PN7317

Do you know - I mean, it's a fairly heavily populated area, so are there a large number of local pubs that you put in the competitor category?‑‑‑If you're talking just about Dapto, the 2530 suburb, three clubs, two pubs.

PN7318

But in the slightly wider facility area, I mean?‑‑‑Depending on where you go.

PN7319

Yes.

PN7320

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What do you mean by that?

PN7321

MR DIXON: I shall clarify that, if your Honour pleases. In the immediate facility of your two clubs, are there local restaurants?‑‑‑There's a number of local restaurants, yes.

PN7322

That you regard as your competitors. How many approximately?

PN7323

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Did he say he regarded them as his competitors?

PN7324

MR DIXON: I am reading paragraph 16 of his statement, your Honour. He says: "Our major competitors are" - - -

PN7325

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, all right.

PN7326

MR DIXON: And if I hadn't clarified that in my question, I apologise. You regard a number of those restaurants as your major competitors, correct?‑‑‑Competitors, yes.

PN7327

How many would you put in the category of major competitors that you describe in paragraph 16 of your statement - restaurants?‑‑‑In relation to a food offering, they would all be competitors.

PN7328

And "our major competitors," that's what you used?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7329

You indicate in paragraph 16 that shopping centres also compete for the leisure spend?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XXN MR DIXON

PN7330

There are shopping centres relatively close to your clubs?‑‑‑Yes, we have a major shopping centre owned and operated by AMP, Dapto Mall.

PN7331

How close by?‑‑‑200 metres.

PN7332

When you say they compete for leisure spend, are there restaurants in the shopping centre?‑‑‑A number of restaurants - food courts, food outlets.

PN7333

Fast food?‑‑‑Various types - there would be fast food up to café style, up to burgers and that sort of thing, a range.

PN7334

And some shopping centres have bars available. Do you know whether the shopping centre, the AMP one that you referred to, has any liquor licence outlets?‑‑‑No.

PN7335

The Dapto Leagues Club Ltd presently has a current EBA for managers?‑‑‑Enterprise agreement, yes.

PN7336

Can I ask you to have a look at the Dapto Leagues Club Ltd managers' enterprise agreement, approved by the Commission on 8 February 2017? Do you have a copy of that agreement, Mr Hiscox?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7337

Do you identify that as your current enterprise agreement for managers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7338

Can I ask you to turn to clause 5.12 on page 5? You'll see there is the definition of managers?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN7339

And at 8.1, the classification level for managers is then referenced in accordance with schedule A?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7340

And in 13.1, there are manager exemptions built in for - if there's payment of 30 per cent or payment of 50 per cent above the manager rates set in the classifications under this agreement?‑‑‑Correct.

PN7341

And then if one goes to clause 32, the agreement provided for annual increases on each of the dates set out in paragraph 32.2?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XXN MR DIXON

PN7342

And the rates in schedule B that apply are then attached at schedule B, page 28 of 30, do you see that?‑‑‑Sorry?

PN7343

If you go towards the end, there's a schedule B, and at the bottom of the page it says page 28 of 30?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7344

I want to ask you by reference to the tables in schedule B for how many managers you have. How many managers are employed in the Dapto Club? By all means, work it out if you need to - and I want to ask you as well at what level each of those managers are classified by reference to the pay rates, level A through to G, if you can tell us that?‑‑‑Eleven managers.

PN7345

And so if we - the current rate would be that set out in subparagraph (b), is that correct?‑‑‑As at, yes, January this year, correct.

PN7346

So how many managers - how many did you say you have?‑‑‑Eleven.

PN7347

Is that at the Dapto Club or - - -?‑‑‑That's combined.

PN7348

How many in level A?‑‑‑Off the top of my head, I'd have three on level A on the 30 per cent exemption.

PN7349

Can I just ask you to pause there? Do you pay above the 30 per cent exemption, or are you simply paying in accordance with this enterprise agreement plus 30 per cent?‑‑‑It depends on the position and the person.

PN7350

So perhaps you could just deal with that. So the three at level A, they're on the 30 per cent exemption. Anything above 30 per cent for them?‑‑‑No.

PN7351

Level B?‑‑‑I don't believe we have anyone on level B.

PN7352

Right. C?‑‑‑Off the top of my head, I don't believe we have anyone on level C.

PN7353

Right. D?‑‑‑Yes, we have one.

PN7354

Is that person paid on either of the exemptions?‑‑‑On the 30 per cent.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XXN MR DIXON

PN7355

Above 30 per cent or strictly - - -?‑‑‑No, the 30 per cent.

PN7356

Strictly in accordance with the 30 per cent?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7357

So that takes us to four in total. And level E?‑‑‑I think I've got five.

PN7358

Are any of them paid at the 30 per cent exemption rate?‑‑‑All of them are on the 50 per cent or above.

PN7359

Fifty or above. Do you know how many of the five are above the 50 per cent loading?‑‑‑Three.

PN7360

At level F?‑‑‑None.

PN7361

At level G?‑‑‑Yes, one.

PN7362

One. And is that person paid above either of the exemption rates?‑‑‑Above the 50 per cent.

PN7363

So it's the classification grade in the enterprise agreement plus 50 per cent, plus more?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7364

Can I just ask you to clarify one other thing please in relation to this enterprise agreement, Mr Hiscox, and that is that schedule C, the allowance and penalties, are they paid on top of what is in schedule B, or – it wasn't entirely clear to me whether they were absorbed in any of the exemptions?‑‑‑I would suggest that the employees on the level with the 30 per cent exemption are exempt from the late work penalty, the early work penalty, the broken periods penalty rate. They would be entitled to the laundry and they would be entitled to the vehicle. And the people in the 50 per cent exemption would not be paid any of those.

PN7365

But you - - -?‑‑‑Above.

PN7366

The 30 per cent exemption is dealt with in 13.1, is it not?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XXN MR DIXON

PN7367

And it doesn't seem to make any reference to schedule C – well, it might, I'm not sure. Are you simply referring to your practice or – because someone is being paid over the 50 per cent is it your evidence that you regard the over 50 per cent as absorbing schedule C payments, or what is the position?‑‑‑I believe so because 13.2.7 says "laundry allowance" and 13.2.8 says "vehicle allowance."

PN7368

I see. Yes, thank you?‑‑‑And the penalty would be included in 13.1.5 at penalty rates, I would assume. That would be my interpretation.

PN7369

All right?‑‑‑And the same in 13.2.6.

PN7370

Thank you. May I tender the enterprise agreement if the Commission pleases.

PN7371

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The Dapto Leagues Club Managers' Enterprise Agreement will be marked exhibit 55.

EXHIBIT #55 DAPTO LEAGUES CLUB MANAGERS' ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT

PN7372

MR DIXON: If the Commission pleases. Mr Hiscox, the Dapto Leagues Club Limited also has an enterprise agreement that applies to other employees, does it not, 2010 agreement?‑‑‑Correct.

PN7373

May I ask you to look at that document please? Do you have a copy of that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7374

The document I handed you appears to have been approved on 24 June 2010, entitled, "Dapto Leagues Club Enterprise Agreement 2010." Do you recognise that as your enterprise agreement that is currently still operating in - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7375

One or other clubs, or both?‑‑‑Both.

PN7376

Both, and these rates were obviously set that if one looks, for example, at page 39, the rates there are set out when the agreement was made for the various classification levels that are set out in the left-hand column under "Classification level." And they really exclude managers because managers are dealt with separately?‑‑‑Correct.

PN7377

What is the position? This agreement is still in operation?‑‑‑Correct.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XXN MR DIXON

PN7378

Have you on an annual basis simply paid employees within these classifications on top of whatever the rates were set out here?‑‑‑Sorry, I don't understand the question.

PN7379

Are the rates in this 2010 agreement still the current rates?‑‑‑No.

PN7380

No. So you have obviously on some basis, given your earlier answer, paid employees within the classification level on the left-hand column of page 39, more?‑‑‑Correct.

PN7381

How do you go about that? Do you simply allocate a percentage increase to then on a discretionary basis every year?‑‑‑No, my understanding with this agreement is there was 2 per cent increases provided for in the agreement. Those amounts from my recollection, the amounts that were actually paid, may have been higher than that 2 per cent due to initial increases provided for in Fair Work the year after the Modern Award came into force, so I know currently we are paying an hourly rate the equivalent of what would be paid to an employee under the Modern Award.

PN7382

I see. And on top of that you are paying, I take it, penalty rates in accordance with clause 20.1 of this agreement on page 14?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7383

Is it the case that regardless of the outcome of these proceedings all those employees will continue to be paid their weekend penalty rates as set out in clause 20.1?‑‑‑Correct.

PN7384

We've heard of these proceedings that the CMAA has a magazine which it publicises from time to time?‑‑‑They - - -

PN7385

You're aware - - -?‑‑‑Yes, we're aware of - - -

PN7386

You know they public a magazine?‑‑‑Yes, we're required to under the Fair Work Act to provide a journal to our members.

PN7387

All right. May I ask you to look at tender bundle, please, in relation to – and look behind tab 1?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7388

I don't think it was selected just because of the front page but if it's convenient, Mr Hiscox, can I ask you to turn to page 1?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XXN MR DIXON

PN7389

You might have to look at the cover page because it appears to be your November 2015 edition that went to all your members. Do you recognise that next to the - under the word "club management November 2015"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7390

So this is the November 2015 magazine published by your organisation?‑‑‑M'mm.

PN7391

On page 1, numbered in the top right-hand corner 1, you'll see it sets out the federal executive and the positions and also the photographs of the various persons at the bottom. Yourself, Mr Peter who's given evidence and Bill Clegg. Now can I then ask you to turn to the page on page 8, top left-hand corner, or page 10 at the bottom. You'll see that this is the then executive officer's report. Do you recognise that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7392

In the square box at the bottom left-hand column, you'll see in the second paragraph there is a statement about:

PN7393

The recent release of high impact one day management courses such as award interpretation.

PN7394

Do you see that, left-hand column, in the bracketed area. Second paragraph?‑‑‑"Such as award interpretation, project management, finance and on" - yes.

PN7395

Yes, you see that. Now this was November 2015. That refers to award interpretation high impact courses. Have such courses been conducted since 2015 on award interpretation?‑‑‑I would assume so. I'm the federal president, I couldn't tell you the frequency or how often a particular course runs.

PN7396

But your understanding is that award interpretation courses are courses of the kind that your organization presents to managers from time to time?‑‑‑Yes, and those courses are designed to understand the club - the Registered and Licensed Club Award.

PN7397

There are also national managers conferences held in June of every year. Is that the case?‑‑‑June or July, yes.

PN7398

Do those conferences provide a means by which managers can be informed of any changes to employment matters in the industry?‑‑‑At that conference there would generally be a general meeting of the members.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XXN MR DIXON

PN7399

A general meeting of members there would be papers presented to the general meeting?‑‑‑There would be a number of reports presented. I would present a president's report, the executive officer would present their update, excuse me, on the strategic plan and things and the federal secretary treasurer would provide a report.

PN7400

Are there education sessions presented at the same time as everyone is gathered?‑‑‑Yes, over the period of the time, yes. The meeting's normally on the first morning and then there's, depending on which conference, a day and a half to two days of conference afterwards.

PN7401

Those presentations could address questions like award interpretation as well could they not?‑‑‑At the national conference?

PN7402

Yes?‑‑‑Would not generally be in relation to base level industrial relations matter, they would be more high level leadership matters.

PN7403

Can I come back to the magazine and ask you to look at the page referenced 26 in the bottom right-hand corner. It's fairly typical for your magazine to present members with articles or updates on what is described as the industrial landscape informing members of any matter of importance to them?‑‑‑In each episode yes, there would be something written along those lines.

PN7404

Can I then ask you to turn to page 37 in the bottom right-hand corner?‑‑‑Sorry, page?

PN7405

Thirty-seven. This appears to be a training calendar for 2015/2016?‑‑‑M'mm.

PN7406

Is that correct?‑‑‑Would appear to be, yes.

PN7407

Does you organisation have a training calendar every year in which a range of courses are presented to your members?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7408

Do those training sessions cover matters such as managing workplace relations? If you look under the top left-hand heading of management operations, the second last unit, "Manage workplace relations ACCM Unit"?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XXN MR DIXON

PN7409

Two days, and would that - a unit like that include instruction and advice about complying with award obligations and interpreting awards?‑‑‑I couldn't specifically answer on the content of the curriculum.

PN7410

But if there was a serious award issue or a major award change, you would expect as part of the overall training calendar that your organisation would present to your members advice about, for example, a merged award in this case if that's what happens here?‑‑‑We would, yes.

PN7411

Can I then ask you to turn if you would to the page numbered 43 in the bottom right-hand corner. Do you have that - it seems like some form of advertisement for services?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7412

In the top row, middle paragraph, "Association support for members. Advice on various employment issues", that's a service that your association provides?‑‑‑Yes, we're a trade union.

PN7413

As a trade union you regard it as important to ensure that on award matters, industry award advice which is set out there, your organisation must provide your members with such advice from time to time?‑‑‑Correct.

PN7414

If the Commission were in this proceeding to decide to produce a new merged award you would expect that your organisation would provide industry award advice to your members in accordance with its obligations as a union?‑‑‑Yes.

PN7415

Can you tell us what is - at the bottom of the page, there is something called "My representation". What is that?‑‑‑So it's the three tag lines I guess for the marketing piece. "My representation" relates to the industrial representation that we provide the members in relation to an award and plus matters of disciplinary, termination, appearing at Fair Work and all those ranges from the award right through to service agreements. If a manager needs to - is facing a disciplinary proceeding with their manager or their board right through to appearing in front of Fair Work if it was necessary, my networks is around - - -

PN7416

Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Just staying with my representation, is my representation a site which you can access or is this - - -?‑‑‑No, it's just three tag lines.

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX XXN MR DIXON

PN7417

I see, and "My networks", what is "My networks"?‑‑‑"My networks", is one of the things we do as an association, when we have events is get together and be able to discuss collegiately a range of issues that an individual maybe facing in their workplace, or giving advice, and my career path is clearly, you know, one of the main things the association does in relation to educating and training managers, not only in the award but right up to corporate governance training.

PN7418

That is the cross-examination, if the Commission pleases.

PN7419

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Did you want to tender the 2010 agreement, Mr Dixon?

PN7420

MR DIXON: I did. I apologise. Thank you, your Honour.

PN7421

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The Dapto Leagues Club Enterprise Agreement 2010 will be marked exhibit 56.

EXHIBIT #56 DAPTO LEAGUES CLUB ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT 2010

PN7422

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination, Mr Cooper?

PN7423

MR COOPER: Yes, your Honour.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR COOPER [12.56 PM]

PN7424

MR COOPER: Mr Hiscox, you gave evidence about your management structure for the two entities. If I could go through those. You said there were three A‑level managers on the 30 per cent. What sort of managers were you referring to there? What do they do?‑‑‑Those three would be - two of those would be what we call customer service managers, so floor managers, duty managers that would work shift work, and the other is the greens superintendent.

PN7425

You then went to level D. You've got one manager there on the 30 per cent exemption. What does that manager do?‑‑‑He looks after - again, he's a customer service manager, but he's also provided with a portfolio where he looks after all of the contract management, so any contractor's access or entry into the premises; he looks after all of our fire evacuation procedures and processes, and he manages a lot of our WHS obligations and responsibilities.

PN7426

Then you identified there are five managers on level E, three of which received in excess of the 50 per cent. So what's the differential between the five managers in that classification?‑‑‑Sorry, I don't understand the - - -

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX RXN MR COOPER

PN7427

Well you've got two managers sitting on the 50 per cent. I just want to understand what your level E management team is all about and what functions they fulfil?‑‑‑What they do?

PN7428

Yes?‑‑‑Sorry. So one would be the golf club professional and operations manager of the golf club, so he would look after all of the golf‑related issues along with the hospitality menu. The other one is our human resource manager, so he looks after recruitment selection, our employer engagement, our employment assistance program, training, development, all of the normal HR function areas that you would see in any business I guess. The other two, one is the gaming operations and community manager, so she looks after the gaming and marketing and all of our community initiatives in relation to either sport, local communities, and with the HR manager, any staff volunteering or anything else we do. And the other person is a food and beverage operations manager, so looks after overseas food and beverage and then looks after all of the facilities, air conditioning, all the mechanical - everything else within the club. And I might have missed one, the executive chef, who obviously looks after the kitchen.

PN7429

So they specialise in a particular area of the club, do they?‑‑‑Sorry?

PN7430

The level E managers, do they specialise in a certain area of your club's operations?‑‑‑Specialise, and two of them across I guess three disciplines; the others over a single discipline, yes.

PN7431

And the level G manager, I assume that's yourself?‑‑‑Correct.

PN7432

Thank you. That's all.

PN7433

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thanks for your evidence, Mr Hiscox. You're excused and you're free to go.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.59 PM]

PN7434

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that all your evidence, Mr Cooper?

PN7435

MR COOPER: Yes, it is, your Honour. Thank you.

PN7436

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So I note Mr Duncalfe is here. Can anyone advise me - I assume he wishes to tender the two statements that the AWU filed?

*** DAVID MARK HISCOX RXN MR COOPER

PN7437

MR DOWLING: I think, your Honour, they have been withdrawn. They were directed at that clause 29 issue, which has been resolved in discussions between the AWU and the applicant.

PN7438

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I see.

PN7439

MR DOWLING: So as I understand it, he doesn't. He had one document to tender. He advised us of that, but it has been tendered through Mr Cooper separately. So as I understand it, there is no need for him to tender anything. I am instructed that he proposes to make closing submissions on Thursday.

PN7440

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, of course. So does that only leave your bits and pieces from the tender bundles, Mr Dixon?

PN7441

MR DIXON: That, and we have - I could indicate now on the transcript which parts, or we can - I've had extensive discussions with my friends about the relevant parts - I can read it onto the transcript. Otherwise, I could send it down, a note to the Commission this afternoon about the relevant pages from the relevant tabs, whichever is convenient to the Commission. And what we had in mind is that those sections, if they're admitted, would then be produced electronically so they can go onto whatever website there is for the matter, but I'm obviously in the Commission's hands. I can identify them now?

PN7442

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I don't think we're inclined to administratively put together your tender bundle.

PN7443

MR DIXON: No, I don't - of course I don't intend that, your Honour. If I - - -

PN7444

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So is your side in a position to actually physically put it together and simply send it to us and we could mark it administratively?

PN7445

MR DIXON: Yes. I was not in any way intending to do other than the whole thing in one set be provided to the Commission electronically or otherwise, whatever is convenient.

PN7446

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes. I think if it could be provided physically - - -

PN7447

MR DIXON: We will do that.

PN7448

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: - - - that would be convenient, and as long as it's by consent, then if you file it we'll administratively mark it as an exhibit.

PN7449

MR DIXON: If the Commission pleases. There is one other matter I want to attend to today, if the Commission pleases, and that is whether we could have access, and any other party, but have access to the PGA‑produced raw data if it arrives by 4 pm in one form or another tomorrow. If it has been produced, of course we would appreciate the earlier opportunity.

PN7450

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I'm told, Mr Dixon, we have received an Excel spreadsheet by email. So if the parties want to wait, we can try to print that out. I just need to check whether there was any objection to access, but subject to that, if a representative of any party who wants it can stay, we'll try and arrange to have it printed out and supplied to you.

PN7451

MR DIXON: We would be very appreciative of that.

PN7452

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Alternatively, we could have it emailed to you in the form that we've received it.

PN7453

MR DIXON: We'll wait and see how it can work, if the Commission pleases.

PN7454

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, all right. Mr Dowling?

PN7455

MR DOWLING: Thank you, your Honour. On the last topic, we would like access to the data. The form that would suit us best is the electronic form, so if it could be emailed in the form in which it was provided to the Commission, it would be much appreciated.

PN7456

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Right. But you haven't been informed that there was any objection to access, or any desire for confidentiality?

PN7457

MR DOWLING: I haven't, no, your Honour. Just two other matters from me, your Honour. There is one further document that we seek to rely on, and that is the Australian Gambling Statistics. I think it was Mr Constable that referred to a particular page. There are some other pages that we propose to make reference to. The document is very thick. It's at least a ream, double‑sided, so we did not want to produce copies of it. We are able to, certainly, but we're also able to provide an electronic copy, if that would be preferable.

PN7458

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think what would be preferable is if, subject to any objection, provide hard copies of an extract of the document, which contains information to which you intend to take us in submissions.

PN7459

MR DOWLING: Yes, we will do that. Lastly, we have not provided, but I know our learned friends have, a list of the cases we propose to refer to. We will do that by no later than Wednesday for our submissions on Thursday. We will provide an electronic list, together with an electronic copy of each of the cases to which we refer.

PN7460

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The only ones we would print out are the decisions from which you intend to read.

PN7461

MR DOWLING: Yes.

PN7462

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So can you, if you give us that list, identify which decisions you intend to read from and the pages you intend to read so we don't do unnecessary copying.

PN7463

MR DOWLING: We will do that. There is nothing further from United Voice. Thank you, your Honour.

PN7464

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is there anything further from any other party? All right. Subject to the receipt of those two further putative exhibits, we'll adjourn and resume for submissions at 10 am on Wednesday.

ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 11 JULY 2018 [1.05 PM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #49 WITNESS STATEMENT OF SANDRA LILLIAN KING DATED 14/05/2018............................................................................................................................... PN6752

EXHIBIT #50 PROPOSED AGREED FINDINGS RE SANDRA KING... PN6752

EMILIO THOMAS VALENTI, AFFIRMED.................................................. PN6758

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS BURKE................................................ PN6758

EXHIBIT #51 WITNESS STATEMENT OF EMILIO THOMAS VALENTI DATED 01/05/2018............................................................................................................................... PN6774

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON..................................................... PN6776

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS BURKE............................................................. PN6818

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN6823

MATTHEW LEE DAGG, SWORN................................................................. PN6829

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR COOPER............................................. PN6829

EXHIBIT #52 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MATTHEW DAGG DATED 08/05/2018............................................................................................................................... PN6848

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON..................................................... PN6861

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN7060

ZOE JANET CLEGG, AFFIRMED................................................................. PN7067

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR COOPER............................................. PN7067

EXHIBIT #53 WITNESS STATEMENT OF ZOE CLEGG, UNDATED... PN7095

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON..................................................... PN7096

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN7165

DAVID MARK HISCOX, AFFIRMED........................................................... PN7201

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR COOPER............................................. PN7201

EXHIBIT #54 UNDATED STATEMENT OF DAVID HISCOX................. PN7212

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DIXON..................................................... PN7213

EXHIBIT #55 DAPTO LEAGUES CLUB MANAGERS' ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT............................................................................................................................... PN7371

EXHIBIT #56 DAPTO LEAGUES CLUB ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT 2010 PN7421

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR COOPER......................................................... PN7423

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN7433