PN1

THE VICE PRESIDENT: For the record, I have Ms Murphy?

PN2

MS MURPHY: Yes, that's correct, sir.

PN3

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Thomson?

PN4

MS THOMSON: Yes, your Honour.

PN5

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Fisher?

PN6

MS FISHER: Yes, your Honour.

PN7

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Anthony?

PN8

MS ANTHONY: Yes, your Honour.

PN9

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Brown and Mr Helm?

PN10

MR BROWN: Yes, your Honour.

PN11

MR HELM: Yes, your Honour.

PN12

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Bandara?

PN13

MS BANDARA: Yes, your Honour.

PN14

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr McCarthy?

PN15

MR McCARTHY: Yes, your Honour.

PN16

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Liebhaber and Ms Svenson?

PN17

MS LIEBHABER: Ms Liebhaber's here, but Ms Svenson is not available.

PN18

THE VICE PRESIDENT: That's fine. Mr Wilkinson?

PN19

MR WILKINSON: Yes, your Honour.

PN20

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Reid?

PN21

MR REID: Present, your Honour.

PN22

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Paul?

PN23

MS PAUL: Yes, your Honour.

PN24

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Gleister and Mr Jack?

PN25

SPEAKER: (Indistinct).

PN26

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you. I have brought the matter on to just finalise where we're at. Following correspondence that occurred from Ms Murphy on 13 September and I just want to make sure that everything is ready for the hearing. At the moment, the matter has been listed for hearing on 27, 28, 29 and 30 November, and 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15 December. If I just deal first of all with the nurses' part of the case, for those interests representing the nurses, are we going to first of all use the four dates? Mr McCarthy? We've lost everybody.

PN27

SPEAKER: Everybody.

PN28

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Sorry, we had a line drop-out and we're back on again. Mr McCarthy, can you hear me?

PN29

MR McCARTHY: Yes, your Honour.

PN30

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I don't know how far the parties heard me, but I was going to the nurses' matter first which has been earmarked to be 27 to 30 November, and my question really was: will the nurses' matter first of all take those four days?

PN31

MR McCARTHY: It's Mr McCarthy from the ANMF, your Honour. I didn't hear anything you said, but I heard that. I don't believe it will take four days. I was just thinking earlier, I'd say it will probably take about two days, maybe three to be safe, but it probably won't be more than two days.

PN32

THE VICE PRESIDENT: The intention of this matter, of course, is to have a hearing and then written submissions to follow.

PN33

MR McCARTHY: So it's only to hear evidence.

PN34

THE VICE PRESIDENT: It's only to hear the evidence and then we're not going to hear it orally. There will be written submissions and then if there needs to be some oral submissions to amplify the written submissions, we'll do that later. We've lost it again.

PN35

SPEAKER: Sorry, I don't know what happened.

PN36

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr McCarthy, we're having significant technical difficulties. The line keeps dropping out, but we're back again. I can't explain what's happening this morning, sorry, but let's just go back to where we were. We were talking about the hearing dates for the nurses' matter from 27 to 30 November, first of all, to get an understanding of how many days of hearing are required.

PN37

MR McCARTHY: Your Honour, you dropped out while you were explaining the written submissions and the hearing dates which would just be about - - -

PN38

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, opening submissions and the evidence.

PN39

MR McCARTHY: Yes. In that case, I would suspect it could quite well be done in one day and maybe two at most. It may be into a second day, but I don't think it will go beyond two and it might only be one would be my feeling.

PN40

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Have you had discussions in the nurses' matter about the witness statements and whether there is going to be cross-examination of any witnesses, et cetera? Carine, it's gone again.

PN41

SPEAKER: For some reason your line is dropping out and everyone else stays on the line. I'm not sure why, I'm so sorry.

PN42

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Sorry, Mr McCarthy, I lost you again, so I didn't hear what you said. Hello?

PN43

MR McCARTHY: (Indistinct).

PN44

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Sorry, Mr McCarthy, we had a drop-out again. Can you just tell me what your answer was to the question?

PN45

MR McCARTHY: Yes, sorry. I believe there will be - I have had some discussions with the aged care employees a couple of months ago. I believe there will need to be some cross-examination. It may be that some witnesses may not need to be cross-examined, but I know, for example, there are some witnesses that the ANMF put on that they're Blue Care. Blue Care have put on a witness as well which may contradict our witnesses. So there will definitely be some cross-examination.

PN46

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, okay.

PN47

MR McCARTHY: Yes.

PN48

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Brown, you have had discussions about as well or on at least a preliminary basis?

PN49

MR BROWN: Not me, your Honour my previous manager. However, I have had to (indistinct) Andrew certainly regarding the timing for the hearing as well as I would anticipate we would be looking to cross-examine their witnesses too.

PN50

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Have you resolved objections as to evidence? Carina, it's gone again. Sorry, just again because the line is playing up, have you resolved objections to evidence amongst yourselves?

PN51

MR McCARTHY: Say it again?

PN52

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Sorry, have you resolved any objections as to evidence?

PN53

MR McCARTHY: It's Mr McCarthy, yes, I believe we have. I don't think there are any objections to evidence, your Honour.

PN54

THE VICE PRESIDENT: So just on the nurses matter then, are the parties content then that the matter be listed for hearing on 27 and 28 November?

PN55

MR McCARTHY: Yes, your Honour.

PN56

MR BROWN: Yes, your Honour, we're happy with that.

PN57

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Then we would vacate the 29th and the 30th. Now, in terms of what follows then, if you're going to do written submissions, you would want to see the transcript, presumably. How long do you think you would want for your written submissions after that process? Carine? I'm sorry again, Mr McCarthy, but we're having lines drop in and out throughout all this.

PN58

MR BROWN: We're on the health - there's a few people on the Health Professionals Award, I think, your Honour.

PN59

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, sorry.

PN60

MR McCARTHY: And we have remained quiet during the discussions on the Nurses' Award.

PN61

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, yes. So we're still doing the nurses, but as far as I got before the line dropped out, it appears it's dropping out every couple of minutes, so I can't explain the technology today.

PN62

MR BROWN: No one (indistinct).

PN63

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I got to the stage of 27 and 28 November for hearing and then I was asking about the timetable for submissions on the nurses.

PN64

MS PAUL: Your Honour, Ms Paul, I think I might have been the last one speaking. I said we have no objection to the proposition put forward for either four or six weeks.

PN65

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I never heard that, that's the problem. I got cut off.

PN66

MR BROWN: You got cut off.

PN67

MS PAUL: I think the majority view is six weeks.

PN68

MR BROWN: Sorry, your Honour.

PN69

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I've lost them again. We lost everybody again. We're getting a technology person come up. Can you hear me at the moment? Can anybody hear me at the moment? I think I lost everyone. I lost everyone. So I'll hang up.

PN70

SPEAKER: Yes, hang up, please. Thank you.

PN71

THE VICE PRESIDENT: We've had another technology problem. Are people still there?

PN72

MS FISHER: For the nurses, what about health professionals or would be just basically if we've got that long we do the two together, similar date. We've got that time to wait for transcripts, haven't we?

PN73

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Sorry, I've just come back. I've just come back on the line and we are getting some technology assistance, so we may drop off again, but I haven't got beyond any discussion apart from the dates.

PN74

MS MURPHY: Your Honour, it's Katrina Murphy in Brisbane. We actually have been having some useful discussion. If Ms Fisher could give you some information?

PN75

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Ms Fisher.

PN76

MS FISHER: Yes, your Honour. We were just looking at a calendar and given that there are Christmas shutdowns during that six-week period and a number of the parties have extended leave during January, the respondents, we wondered whether it might be possible to request a response date of 30 January for the nurses.

PN77

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, yes, I'm happy to consider an agreed timetable. If the timetable is all agreed it makes it - I've lost them again. Sorry, I'm back on the line, can you hear me again?

PN78

SPEAKER: Yes.

PN79

SPEAKER: Yes.

PN80

SPEAKER: Yes, your Honour, we can.

PN81

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Hopefully we're going to get through it now. So where have we landed since I last was in the conversation?

PN82

MS MURPHY: Ms Fisher.

PN83

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, Ms Fisher.

PN84

MS FISHER: Yes, your Honour, we thought probably 30 January for the Nurses Award if that would be accepted to you.

PN85

THE VICE PRESIDENT: That's for the written submissions of the nurses. What about the reply?

PN86

MS FISHER: Probably, what, another three weeks. Would that suit the other parties?

PN87

MR WILKINSON: Yes, that sounds about right.

PN88

SPEAKER: Yes, good.

PN89

MS FISHER: Which would take us through - it's actually a Tuesday, the 30th. Yes, that's okay. So it would take us through to 20 February.

PN90

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Then a further reply by the nurses?

PN91

MR McCARTHY: Another two or three weeks, I'd say.

PN92

MS FISHER: So that would then be, what, the - - -

PN93

MR McCARTHY: 13 March.

PN94

MS FISHER: 13 March (indistinct).

PN95

MR WILKINSON: Yes, 13 March, three weeks.

PN96

THE VICE PRESIDENT: So let's just have a look. So we've all agreed then that the Nurses Award is going to be separated for hearing from the Health Professionals Award?

PN97

MR McCARTHY: Yes.

PN98

MS MURPHY: Yes, your Honour.

PN99

MR McCARTHY: Yes, your Honour.

PN100

THE VICE PRESIDENT: The Health Professionals Award would then be heard in the December dates. How many dates are required for the hearing of the Health Professionals Award?

PN101

MS MURPHY: Your Honour, it's Katrina Murphy from VHIA.

PN102

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN103

MS MURPHY: When we met before Gooley DP, at that time a number of people expressed an intention to submit further witness statements.

PN104

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, I saw that.

PN105

MS MURPHY: So the VHIA, we have two witnesses and (indistinct) a bit of a conference. We've got witnesses that, in fact, we intend to cross-examine (indistinct) Mr Levinsky, and that position hasn't altered. But I think it might be useful to determine how many witnesses there definitely are and the intention to cross-examine because that wasn't confirmed at the time of the conferences before Gooley DP.

PN106

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. Are there any other witness statements coming?

PN107

MS PAUL: No. This is Ms Paul from IA Group. We don't have any witnesses that we are going to call and we obviously don't intend to cross-examine any witnesses.

PN108

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you. So that's IAG's position, yes.

PN109

MS BANDARA: Your Honour the CAA only has Mr Fisher as a witness that we would only plan to call if he was needed for cross-examination, otherwise his written witness statement we would rely on.

PN110

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. Anyone else?

PN111

MS ANTHONY: Your Honour, Michelle Anthony from APESMA. We have three witnesses. We would only intend to call them if they were to be cross-examined. I think one of the parties that has expressed some opposition is IA Group who have said that they don't intend to cross-examine and I think there was one other party which was Australian Business Industrial and New South Wales Business Chamber. So I'm not sure if there's any intention to cross-examine our three witnesses. We have become aware of a witness who may be available and we would like to submit the witness statement. That may be the case (indistinct) four witnesses.

PN112

THE VICE PRESIDENT: It's getting late in the piece.

PN113

MS ANTHONY: It is.

PN114

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Any other witnesses or any other comments?

PN115

MR McCARTHY: Your Honour - sorry, go ahead, Mr Brown.

PN116

MR BROWN: Keiran Brown from aged care employers. We would be looking to rely on our witness statements to be filed in August 2016 in support of our claims for the Health Professionals Award and we wouldn't be looking to cross-examine anyone.

PN117

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Right.

PN118

MS LIEBHABER: Your Honour, Rachel Liebhaber from the Health Services Union. We have one witness and at this stage we do intend to cross-examine the witnesses from the other parties, so we would be seeking to cross-examine.

PN119

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Right.

PN120

MR WILKINSON: With that, with the HSU, is that likely to be all three witnesses because I haven't mentioned this yet, your Honour, but - this is David Wilkinson from the Australian Dental Association, the ADA - we have three witnesses on the Health Professionals Award and they will be available for cross-examination if need be, otherwise, we will rely on their statements.

PN121

MS LIEBHABER: At this stage, we would propose to cross-examine all those three witnesses. However, if it would assist, we could send around a draft of a witness list with a schedule for the parties to agree on and for the parties to confirm which witnesses they intend to cross-examine.

PN122

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, that would be a good idea.

PN123

MS LIEBHABER: (Indistinct.)

PN124

MR BROWN: Yes.

PN125

THE VICE PRESIDENT: But, in any event, it seems to me that you have got five days set for that. I don't think it is going to take five days of hearing.

PN126

MR WILKINSON: No, I think (indistinct) probably three, three and a half, I'd say. I don't know, because we will be still wanting to cross-examine the HSU at this stage.

PN127

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Right.

PN128

MR WILKINSON: So, yes.

PN129

MS MURPHY: It's Katrina Murphy from VHIA. The schedule from the HSUA needs to be produced as soon as possible, your Honour, given we're getting very late in the day and confirmation of which witnesses they intend to examine. And given it's so late in the day, I think it would also be useful if the parties agreed on a schedule - of, sorry, a sequence of the witnesses. So if the witnesses that are going to be called - and that's two witnesses for the HAA and three witnesses for ADA and one, I think, from, HSUA, so that if at all possible when they have to appear it could be restricted to - just so they'd know the particular day when they have to appear - - -

PN130

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, absolutely.

PN131

MS MURPHY: - - - if we - sorry - - -

PN132

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, I think so what should happen then is that within the next two witnesses, the parties should exchange correspondence and copy in the Commission so that there is a final list of witnesses agreed for that award and the batting order of those witnesses. And at the same time, the best estimate of the length of the hearing. It looks on all counts that you won't need five days, so I'll vacate 15 December. And if you form a view that you're not going to cross-examine most of the witnesses, then at the same time you should tell me any reduction as to dates.

PN133

MS MURPHY: Thank you, your Honour.

PN134

MR WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honour.

PN135

THE VICE PRESIDENT: So, Ms Murphy, I'm looking at your email to the Commission's chambers to make sure that we deal with all outstanding issues today. So in relation to the first item, we have now separated formally so that it's there on the record. The Health Professionals and Support Services Award will be listed on Monday, the 11th. The Nurses Award is separated. The order of witnesses, that's going to be circulated amongst the parties and that should be done in both matters.

PN136

MR WILKINSON: Yes.

PN137

MS MURPHY: Yes, your Honour.

PN138

MR WILKINSON: Thank you. Thank you, your Honour.

PN139

MS LIEBHABER: Yes, thank you very much, your Honour. That's very helpful.

PN140

MR WILKINSON: Yes, it's really good. It's great, yes. Thank you.

PN141

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Are there any other outstanding issues amongst the parties?

PN142

MS BANDARA: Sorry, your Honour, it's Ms Bandara from the CAA. There was a request by Ms Murphy, I believe, to schedule the issues in the Health Professionals Support Services Award in a way that, you know, there's a couple of sort of issues that could be excised, so to speak. So the issue of the list of the common health professionals, you know, versus really the span of hours is the two really large issues in dispute it would seem. Is there a way that we can schedule it to, you know, limit the number of days that, for example, the CAA need to appear because we have no interest in the issue with the common health professionals?

PN143

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I'm happy for the parties to try to discuss it amongst themselves and the Commission will fit around it.

PN144

MS BANDARA: Okay.

PN145

MS MURPHY: Thank you, your Honour. We'll do that. That's the only issue for the VHIA and, indeed, the HSUA's single witness, in terms of my understanding, only addresses that issue which is of common concern to the VHIA. So with some cooperation between the parties we could actually achieve that fine-tuning which would assist everybody.

PN146

SPEAKER: Yes, it would.

PN147

MS LIEBHABER: Your Honour, Ms Liebhaber from the HSU. I think there was some discussion at the previous hearing about an opportunity to provide submissions about objections to witness evidence and what weight will be given to that evidence. So we were wondering if there might be some directions about that.

PN148

THE VICE PRESIDENT: You haven't resolved your objections?

PN149

MS LIEBHABER: I don't believe that it has been with this award.

PN150

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Have you actually had discussions about those objections?

PN151

MS MURPHY: Your Honour, Ms Murphy again. My understanding at the last conference is that the parties made it very clear that there were no objections to any of the witness evidence. I don't think there is - - -

PN152

MR WILKINSON: And if there were - - -

PN153

MS MURPHY: Sorry, David, I beg your pardon.

PN154

MR WILKINSON: Sorry. My understanding was too that if there were to be any that we should be notified within a reasonable time after that last hearing before Gooley C. So that was my understanding as well within a reasonable time.

PN155

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, well, I have not seen anything so I am asking the question. Are there in fact any?

PN156

MR WILKINSON: Yes.

PN157

MS MURPHY: No, there are not.

PN158

MR WILKINSON: I don't think so. I don't think so, your Honour.

PN159

MS LIEBHABER: My understanding was just that we would have opportunity to make submissions in regard to weight.

PN160

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, that's a different point. You have always got those opportunities in submissions, right? I'm talking about whether you're objecting to the evidence. Obviously you can then say, well, the evidence is in, but, you know, when you're putting your submissions in, you shouldn't give much weight to them. That's the normal process and that's done at a hearing, you know, when you do your submissions, the weight of it. So we're all clear on that?

PN161

MS LIEBHABER: Yes, your Honour.

PN162

MR WILKINSON: Yes, yes. Thanks, your Honour. Thank you, Your Honour.

PN163

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Before I recap, is there anything else?

PN164

MS FISHER: It's Ms Fisher here. Just some dates for this award.

PN165

MR WILKINSON: Yes, for the Health Professionals, some dates.

PN166

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, in terms of submissions, yes.

PN167

MS FISHER: Yes.

PN168

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, well, I would be assisted by the parties in terms of their agreement, if they can agree to a timetable.

PN169

MS FISHER: And one of (indistinct) when your line dropped out we had started to discuss we thought (indistinct) on 23 February which would follow a similar timeframe to the nurses adding on the three weeks (indistinct).

PN170

THE VICE PRESIDENT: What I might ask because of the technical problems we have had if I could have each of the awards, one person volunteer to send me the draft directions.

PN171

MR McCARTHY: I can do that.

PN172

MS BANDARA: I'll volunteer for the health.

PN173

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you.

PN174

MR McCARTHY: It's Mr McCarthy. I can do that in relation to the nurses, your Honour.

PN175

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. If I could have those directions by the middle of next week then I can issue them formally.

PN176

MR WILKINSON: Thanks, that's good. Did we decide on that date, though, for the first submissions and then for the replies for the Health Professionals Award?

PN177

MS FISHER: The first submission I thought we had discussed was 23 Feb, but we didn't know beyond that, but if we look at a similar timeframe to the nurses, that would take it to 23 March for the replies and then three weeks on from that, 13 April for the HUA and others.

PN178

MR WILKINSON: Sorry, what was that, Lucy?

PN179

MS FISHER: 23 Feb for the initial one.

PN180

MR WILKINSON: Yes.

PN181

MS FISHER: 23 March for the replies and 13 April. That would be the same interval of time which we have previously agreed for the nurses with the extended dates.

PN182

MS BANDARA: So, your Honour, if that's acceptable to everybody, I could draft that up, your Honour.

PN183

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, that will be - yes.

PN184

MS BANDARA: And circulate amongst the parties.

PN185

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, and then send it to the Commission.

PN186

MS BANDARA: Yes, sir, yes.

PN187

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you. All right. So then anything else?

PN188

MR McCARTHY: No, I don't think so, your Honour.

PN189

MR WILKINSON: No.

PN190

SPEAKER: No, your Honour.

PN191

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right.

PN192

SPEAKER: No, your Honour.

PN193

SPEAKER: None from us, your Honour.

PN194

THE VICE PRESIDENT: So just to recap, the nurses matter will now be listed for 27 and 28 November. There will be a draft direction circulated as to the timetable for submissions. Once the Commission receives that and it's agreed, that will be then published. In relation to health professionals, at the moment, the hearing dates are 11, 12, 13 and 14 December. In the event, in the next week or so when the parties have had further discussions on the timetable and witnesses and cross-examination and they form a view that less dates are required they should notify my chambers. I will also receive a document from the parties as to the agreed timetable for submissions. Thank you to everybody and, again, apologies from the Commission's perspective because of the technical problems this morning. I wanted to limit costs by doing a teleconference for a directions hearing. It's a bit unfortunate that we had the problems, but I thank everybody for their indulgence during this teleconference. Thank you, the Commission - - -

PN195

MR WILKINSON: Thank you for organising it.

PN196

SPEAKER: Thank you, your Honour.

PN197

SPEAKER: Thank you, your Honour.

PN198

MR WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honour, (indistinct), thank you.

PN199

SPEAKER: Thank you, your Honour.

PN200

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you. The Commission is adjourned.

PN201

SPEAKER: Bye bye.

PN202

MR WILKINSON: Have a good one, bye.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [10.00 AM]