PN700

THE ASSOCIATE: This is matter number AM286 of 2014, part-heard.

PN701

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is there any matters we need to deal with before we have Mr Dauncey give evidence?

PN702

MR WARD: Nothing of � no.

PN703

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Let's get Mr Dauncey in and we'll administer the affirmation to him.

PN704

MR WARD: Your Honour, I call Mr Dauncey. I think he's on. Yes, he is.

PN705

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Hi, Mr Dauncey. Can you see and hear us?

PN706

MR DAUNCEY: Yes, I can.

PN707

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I should inform the parties, if they don't know already, that the bar table camera appears to be working for the time being. Can we administer the affirmation to Mr Dauncey, please?

PN708

THE ASSOCIATE: Mr Dauncey, can you please state your full name and address?

PN709

MR DAUNCEY: Kristian Rene Dauncey, 168 Charter Street, Ringwood.

PN710

THE ASSOCIATE: Thank you.

<KRISTIAN RENE DAUNCEY, AFFIRMED�� [10.03 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WARD�� [10.03 AM]

PN711

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Ward.

PN712

MR WARD: Thank you, your Honour. Mr Dauncey, can you see me, I'm standing up?‑‑‑Yes, I have (indistinct) in the way but I'll just close that notification, yes.

***�� KRISTIAN RENE DAUNCEY�� XN MR WARD

PN713

That's fine. Mr Dauncey, we've not met. I don't think we've actually spoken. My name is Nigel Ward. I appear in the matter for ABI and the New South Wales Business Chamber. Could I ask you to restate your full name and address for the record?‑‑‑Kristian Rene Dauncey, 168 Charter Street, Ringwood.

PN714

You've prepared a statement for these proceedings?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN715

That statement is of some 44 paragraphs and has annexures A to F which are actually identified as attachments A to F, is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN716

Have you read that statement?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN717

Is that statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN718

I'd seek to tender that.

PN719

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The witness statement of Kristian Dauncey dated 8 July 2022 will be marked exhibit R.

EXHIBIT #R WITNESS STATEMENT OF KRISTIAN DAUNCEY

PN720

MR WARD: Mr Dauncey, to my left is Mr Harding. He's appearing for AED Legal and the ACTU. He's going to ask you some questions?‑‑‑Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HARDING�� [10.04 AM]

PN721

MR HARDING: Mr Dauncey, can you see me?‑‑‑Yes, I can, Mr Harding.

PN722

Good. Is there anyone else in the room with you, Mr Dauncey?‑‑‑Just myself.

PN723

Is the only materials you have before you a witness statement?‑‑‑Yes and the materials sent 10, 20 minutes ago, yes.

PN724

Good. Can I just ask, were you on the Teams link yesterday?‑‑‑That was me, yes.

***�� KRISTIAN RENE DAUNCEY�� XXN MR HARDING

PN725

Did you hear the cross-examination of Mr Christodoulou and Mr Teed?‑‑‑No, no, I was in the lobby.

PN726

Mr Dauncey, you've given some evidence based on some correspondence you received from ABI asking you to do a classification exercise and you've attached that correspondence to your statement, haven't you?‑‑‑Correct.

PN727

Did you say correct?‑‑‑Correct, yes.

PN728

It's the case, well, Mr Christodoulou's evidence is that you helped in the crafting of the classifications A1, A2, B1, B2. Is that right?‑‑‑I didn't craft it, no.

PN729

Did you help?‑‑‑I � no. What I did � what I was involved in was obviously undertaking the trial.

PN730

That's all you did?‑‑‑Correct.

PN731

In paragraph 4 of your statement, Mr Dauncey, you've given some evidence about your views pertaining to this matter. You were only speaking here from Knoxbrooke's point of view, aren't you?‑‑‑Correct, yes.

PN732

You don't speak on behalf of any other ADE?‑‑‑No.

PN733

Mr Dauncey, the focus of your statement seems to be an aspect of the Knoxbrooke Group which is called Knoxbrooke Enterprises Limited. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes, it's a subsidiary.

PN734

That operates a nursery?‑‑‑Correct.

PN735

The nursery has been recently � well, is it right to say that there have been two nurseries amalgamated into one that's now called Yarra View and Bushland Flora Nursery?‑‑‑Correct.

PN736

That nursery is a wholesale business and a retail business, is that right?‑‑‑Yes, wholesale and retail social enterprise.

PN737

That's right but it's a commercial operation, isn't it?‑‑‑Depends what your definition of commercial is. We're a social enterprise.

***�� KRISTIAN RENE DAUNCEY�� XXN MR HARDING

PN738

You sell things to customers?‑‑‑We do. Social enterprises do that, yes.

PN739

I'm not asking you about social enterprises. I'm just asking you to focus on what you do. You sell things to customers under contract in the case of the wholesale business and to retail customers in the case of the retail business?‑‑‑Our mission is to support people with disabilities through employment support and education. That's our primary purpose. Part of that is running a social enterprise which sells items, yes.

PN740

Can you just stick with the question I've asked. You sell nursery products in the wholesale business to customers for whom you have a contract. Is that right?‑‑‑We do, yes.

PN741

You sell nursery products to retail customers who come into your retail operation?‑‑‑Yes.

PN742

You employ employees, including supported employees, for the purposes of doing those activities?‑‑‑That's not our primary purpose but, yes.

PN743

No, Mr Dauncey, just answer the question. You employ - - -

PN744

MR WARD: He is answering the question.

PN745

MR HARDING: You employ supported employees for the purposes of the wholesale and resale business?‑‑‑I disagree with what you're putting to me. Our purpose is around social enterprise and one of the ways we do that is operating social enterprises which is a number of businesses and with any sort of social enterprise it obviously sells goods and services, yes.

PN746

The goods and services you sell, you sell to make money?‑‑‑We sell it so we can pay wages, yes.

PN747

It's the case, isn't it, in relation to the wholesale business that you've got fairly significant contracts with the Victorian State government level crossing removal operations in Bayswater, Seaford and Kororoit Creek?‑‑‑Yes, those contracts were with construction companies that won government work and they engaged us to supply plants to those projects, yes.

***�� KRISTIAN RENE DAUNCEY�� XXN MR HARDING

PN748

They are very substantial projects, you would agree with that?‑‑‑Very much so, yes.

PN749

You were awarded a one million � that is, the enterprise was awarded a one million deal with Mordialloc freeway project?‑‑‑Yes, that's true.

PN750

In your annual report you describe that as the largest ever awarded to a social enterprise in Victoria?‑‑‑That's right.

PN751

Can I take you to page 12 of the annual report that you have attached as attachment D to your statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN752

What I'm looking at, Mr Dauncey, is a picture on the right-hand side and some text on the left and what I've just read to you is about halfway down, 'In mid-2020 we were awarded $1 million deal.' Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN753

Then you go on to say in the last paragraph:

PN754

The retail garden centre went from strength to strength during the year under the new self-promotion model.

PN755

?‑‑‑Yes, it did.

PN756

What's the new self-promotion model?‑‑‑What we've done is we've consolidated two nursery sites when Yarra View Nursery and Bushland Flora came together, and now have one nursery site on York Road and with that we've a better product range with the bushland flora plants. So what we're doing is we're now better promoting that on social media and also with the street traffic that goes by.

PN757

That's doing very well?‑‑‑It has incurred losses for many years but the revenue has increased to the point that we're hopeful that it will break even this year.

PN758

Excellent. Your strategy is working, then, Mr Dauncey?‑‑‑Yes, we � so we're hopeful.

PN759

Have you read your website recently?‑‑‑Yes.

PN760

It says:

***�� KRISTIAN RENE DAUNCEY�� XXN MR HARDING

PN761

Yarra View and Bushland Flora Nursery stands apart as the largest and most successful social enterprise nursery in Australia.

PN762

?‑‑‑Yes, it depends on your definition of success but from our perspective it's the most impactful social enterprise of its type in Australia. Financially it's not successful but in terms of impact and mission, it's very successful.

PN763

You've made some arrangements, on your evidence, to your business to improve it and your evidence is that it is improving?‑‑‑Yes, we are hopeful that we can make it work, absolutely.

PN764

Whilst sticking with the annual report, if I could please, Mr Dauncey, and this is, if I can take you to, firstly, to page 8?‑‑‑I'm there.

PN765

This gives an account of the Knoxbrooke profit and loss for '21 and the year ending 30 June 2021?‑‑‑Mm.

PN766

That's the consolidated report, isn't it?‑‑‑Correct.

PN767

Turning the page there's a continuation of that and the note at the bottom says that this is simply a concise financial report and that the financial position has to be � you have to look at the specific financial report that's been prepared for Knoxbrooke?‑‑‑That's right.

PN768

So this is a summary?‑‑‑Yes.

PN769

Turning the page to page 10, it's correct, isn't it, that apart from business income you've got 29 per cent of your revenue from Federal government sources and 31 per cent of your revenue from the NDIS?‑‑‑That's right and that's partly why we wouldn't say we're commercial.

PN770

You've given some evidence based on, in paragraph 18 of your statement, where you've asked apparently the financial controller to extract some information pertaining to Knoxbrooke Enterprises and you've attached that to your statement at attachment E?‑‑‑Yes, I'm there.

***�� KRISTIAN RENE DAUNCEY�� XXN MR HARDING

PN771

The way we read this is that this pertains only to business income and business costs. Is that the way to look at it?‑‑‑What has it got here? Sales revenue, net grants and other income. So that's sales revenue, net grants and other income excluding Job Keeper. Yes, sorry, what was the question?

PN772

This shows business income and business costs, does it?‑‑‑Yes, I think that's a fair summary, yes.

PN773

You've just got a figure for expenses there but it doesn't break it down in any way by reference to wages, does it?‑‑‑No.

PN774

No one can see from that what proportion is supported employee wages and what proportion is non-supported employee wages or anything else pertaining to expenses?‑‑‑There's no breakdown, no.

PN775

No and if I can take you to the document that was provided to you earlier, have you got that in front of you?‑‑‑Yes, I'm there.

PN776

I suggest to you this is the detailed financial statements for Knoxbrooke that is referred to in the annual report. Is that right?‑‑‑For the group, yes.

PN777

I tender that document.

PN778

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The Knoxbrooke Incorporated Controlled Entity Financial Statements for the year ended 30 June 2021 will be marked exhibit S.

EXHIBIT #S KNOXBROOKE INCORPORATED CONTROLLED ENTITY FINANCIAL STATEMENTS FOR THE YEAR ENDED 30/06/2021

PN779

MR HARDING: Now, if I can take you to page 16 of that document, please?‑‑‑Yes, I'm there.

PN780

Fantastic you can drive the technology so well, Mr Dauncey, not everyone can when I'm referring to documents electronically. This is the revenue from various sources, isn't it?

PN781

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, what page was that, Mr Harding?

PN782

MR HARDING: Sixteen, your Honour.

***�� KRISTIAN RENE DAUNCEY�� XXN MR HARDING

PN783

THE WITNESS: Yes, that's right, for the group.

PN784

MR HARDING: For the group but they've got nursery wholesale and nursery retail separated out?‑‑‑Mm.

PN785

That's the revenue from those operations in those years, is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN786

You got, that is Knoxbrooke got, nearly $7 million from the NDIS in 2020 and nearly $6 million in 2021?‑‑‑Yes.

PN787

That income from the NDIS is not shown, is it, on your attachment E extract that you've put into your statement?‑‑‑I'm just going to double-check. No, it's not.

PN788

It's correct, isn't it, that the NDIS funding is money that you received from the NDIS for providing support to your supported employees?‑‑‑Sorry, my apologies. The net grants and other income in attachment E is NDIS income. It's substantially less for our enterprises than it is for the group. My mistake, it just doesn't call that out, net grants and - - -

PN789

What's the other income?‑‑‑ - - - other income includes NDIS. Other income could be interest income, program fees, donations. It would be pretty trivial. The majority, as shown in attachment E, of the net grants would be NDIS income.

PN790

But it's right to say, isn't it, that the NDIS income is money that you receive, that is Knoxbrooke, for the support - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN791

- - - of your supported employees?‑‑‑The NDIS income is received expressly for supporting our supported employees.

PN792

Yes?‑‑‑And so we employ staff who provide that direct support and that, as you know, sits under the Disability Support Worker Cost Model which allows for a two per cent net profit.

PN793

You've got expense $5 million in '21 and nearly $6 million for 2020. What part of that is supported employees?‑‑‑I would be happy to present that at another time. I just haven't got that to hand at the moment.

***�� KRISTIAN RENE DAUNCEY�� XXN MR HARDING

PN794

Isn't that relevant, Mr Dauncey, when you're presenting to the Commission an accurate - - -

PN795

MR WARD: I object. I object. He's just badgering the witness. The witness can either answer the question or he can't.

PN796

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Harding, do you want the information to be produced?

PN797

MR HARDING: Yes.

PN798

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Ward, can you communicate with Mr Harding as to what precise information Mr Harding seeks in this respect and then you can, once we've finished today, liaise with Mr Dauncey about producing the information.

PN799

MR WARD: The Commission pleases, I'd be more than happy to do that.

PN800

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, Mr Harding.

PN801

MR HARDING: Your accounts show Job Keeper income of nearly $3 million in 2020 and nearly $5 million in 2021 but you've not included that in your attachment E, haven't you?‑‑‑No, we haven't.

PN802

That income was received because of the effects in Melbourne of the lockdowns, wasn't it?‑‑‑It was available nationally but, yes, we received it in Melbourne.

PN803

Those sums were paid to your supported employees � for your supported employees as well as other employees?‑‑‑That's true, yes.

PN804

In that respect was for their wages?‑‑‑Yes and also allowed us to � and many supported employees benefited from the Job Keeper with the Job Keepers top-ups and were paid, yes.

PN805

Perhaps you could provide us with information about how much Job Keeper was paid for supported employees in those years for 2020 and '21 too?‑‑‑We'd be open to that, yes.

***�� KRISTIAN RENE DAUNCEY�� XXN MR HARDING

PN806

Mr Dauncey, if I could take you back to your statement, please. In paragraph 10 you give some evidence about the impact of the SWS, your adoption of the SWS following the end of (indistinct) and that - - -?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN807

- - - occurred in 2016?‑‑‑Yes.

PN808

It's the case that you've continued to use the SWS since then?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN809

For six years?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN810

That was a choice you made then and it's a choice you're continuing to make now?‑‑‑There's no alternative now but, yes, we pay the supported wage today as we adopted it six years ago.

PN811

No alternative. Really? Are you saying that's the only wage assessment tool that was open for you to adopt?

PN812

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, he said now, Mr Harding. He said there's no choice now.

PN813

MR HARDING: Well, why is there no choice now?‑‑‑We're waiting for this to obviously be finalised, the modified SWS, but my understanding that no person is to be any worse off with these � moving to the modified SWS and our expectation is under the SWS our supported employees will be better off under the full SWS as opposed to the modified SWS.

PN814

You adopted it in � why did you adopt it in 2016, then, given the range of options that were available to you at that time?‑‑‑We never expected that six years from then we would be meeting today still talking about wages for supported employees. We expected that this would be resolved fairly quickly.

PN815

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: A number of us held that expectation.

PN816

MR HARDING: I sympathise with your answer.

PN817

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Okay.

***�� KRISTIAN RENE DAUNCEY�� XXN MR HARDING

PN818

MR HARDING: The fact � well, I withdraw that. If I then move to your evidence about the sample of employees that you were asked by ABI to have a look at. And you've given some evidence about how you assess that under the Commission's proposed wages model and then some evidence about the way in which you've assessed it under the proposed ABI A1, B1 classifications, yes?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN819

In relation to that the outcomes of your assessment is in attachment G. Is that right? That's how we read that?‑‑‑The outcomes attachment G. Yes, G, correct.

PN820

So this is your evidence, is it, Mr Dauncey, of what these workers do?‑‑‑That's right, yes.

PN821

You would agree with me it tells the Commission nothing about the actual work, just your and your colleagues' assessment of that?‑‑‑It's very limited, yes.

PN822

Thank you. In paragraph 31 of your statement, Mr Dauncey, you say that when grading the employees you undertook a comprehensive review and you considered the individual employees' work by reference to the criteria you identify, including their individual support needs. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN823

Do you think their individual support needs was relevant to the classification exercise under the Commission's proposal, did you?‑‑‑We did, yes.

PN824

The guidance document you were provided with ABI is part of your attachment H and I think it's the third-last page in the attachment. Have you got that?‑‑‑I'm there, yes.

PN825

It's headed, 'Appendix C Guidelines for the Alternate Classification Structure'?‑‑‑Yes, I'm there.

PN826

I'll ask you if you can look at question 2 and there's two boxes underneath that?‑‑‑Mm.

PN827

The instruction seems to be that if an employee had a tailored or adjusted job, then they fitted within grade A or B, and if they didn't have a tailored or adjusted job, they could not be classified within grade A and B. Is that how you applied the assessment that you undertook?‑‑‑That's right, yes.

***�� KRISTIAN RENE DAUNCEY�� XXN MR HARDING

PN828

Thank you. Can I then take you back, please, to your individual assessments that you've attached to your statement and it's right to say that is your evidence in answer to question 2 of the guideline that you received?‑‑‑That's right.

PN829

These are simply your employees, aren't they, these people in attachment G?‑‑‑Yes, our supported employees.

PN830

Yes and if I can take you back to the guidelines, please, can you have a look at question 1?‑‑‑'Does the employee meet the impairment criteria for the Disability Support Pension?'

PN831

How did you satisfy yourself as to the satisfaction of that question?‑‑‑For every person who works within our social enterprises that's a mandatory requirement that their eligibility for Disability Support Pension is proven.

PN832

If they were eligible for the Disability Support Pension then you took the view that they � and had it, you took the view that question 1 was answered in the affirmative?‑‑‑Yes because it's a � the Disability Support Pension is ongoing, so we're satisfied that they've proven it to us once before, they don't need to re-prove it.

PN833

Thank you. No further questions, Mr Dauncey?

PN834

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD�� [10.34 AM]

PN835

MR WARD: Just two questions, your Honour, if I can.

PN836

Mr Dauncey, can I take you back to the beginning of your evidence? Do you remember being asked some questions about your nursery and I think you were asked whether or not it was a commercial business? Do you remember that?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� KRISTIAN RENE DAUNCEY�� RXN MR WARD

PN837

Could you tell the Commission, please, in your own words, what's the purpose of that business? Why do you run it?‑‑‑It's a mission-based � we're a mission-based charity and are very much focused on providing support, education and employment opportunities for people with disabilities. We would not run that nursery otherwise. If I could just briefly share with you that we invited 40 nurseries to visit our nursery, so these are commercial nurseries, and we invited them on tours. So our supported employees were the tour guides and walked the nurseries through our 12 acre site. And then afterwards took those 40 nurseries to the York Road, Lilydale for a presentation thereafter. At the end of the presentation we opened the floor to questions and the first question that was asked of me was not a question, it was a statement, and that was from these commercial nurseries in the room and they said, 'We never knew a nursery like you guys existed', and the reason for that is they were gobsmacked at how different we were to � still producing, you know, great plants and great products but in a very different way to the way that's done commercially. Now, we employ 81 people at our York Road site. If it was run commercially the rule of thumb is one person per acre. If it was commercial we would employ 12 people and you would expect that each of those nursery staff would, you know, undertake the full gamut of their position description. That's not what we require of our workforce.

PN838

Thank you. Thank you, Mr Dauncey, and I think later on in your evidence you were asked some questions about the commercial viability of the nursery. I think you said this, 'We ran it at a loss for many years.' Am I right, is that what you said?‑‑‑The nursery, yes. We often have people wowed at our nursery when they visit us and there's a cautionary tale in that and it's very hard to make it stand up financially, so people - - -

PN839

Why did you run it at a loss for so many years?‑‑‑It's because we're not running it commercially, ultimately. We're not mechanising where we can. Rather than, you know, bringing in � automating and bringing in machinery which is what most of the commercial nurseries do, we use it as an opportunity to employ more people and provide the supports around them as required. So more supported employees with supports as necessary. So, for example, rather than buying a machine that automatically pots our plants, we will do that by hand. We will work through that because we know that it creates employment opportunities for individuals. So we're not as efficient as commercial businesses are.

PN840

Thank you, Mr Dauncey. No further questions.

PN841

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you for your evidence, Mr Dauncey. You're excused and you're free to disconnect from the hearing?‑‑‑Thank you

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW�� [10.37 AM]

PN842

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that all your witnesses, Mr Ward?

PN843

MR WARD: Sorry, sorry. Yes, your Honour. Sorry.

PN844

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Harding, so your first witness is Mr Greer.

***�� KRISTIAN RENE DAUNCEY�� RXN MR WARD

PN845

MR HARDING: Indeed.

PN846

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN847

MR HARDING: Mr Kemppi is taking those witnesses.

PN848

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is Mr Greer available?

PN849

MR KEMPPI: No, Vice President. I understand that due to the timing of their release from work this morning they are able to be available definitely by 11 o'clock as scheduled. We may be able to arrange them about 10 minutes earlier than that.

PN850

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We'll take an adjournment and can you just advise my associate when Mr Greer is ready to give evidence?

PN851

MR KEMPPI: Certainly.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT�� [10.38 AM]

RESUMED�� [11.04 AM]

PN852

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you. Mr Kemppi, is Mr Greer available now?

PN853

MR KEMPPI: Thank you, yes, Mr Greer is available. We call Donald Bruce Greer.

PN854

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We'll administer the affirmation of Mr Greer. Can you hear and see us, Mr Greer?

PN855

MR GREER: I can hear you but I can't see you.

PN856

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: You can't see us.

PN857

MR GREER: I can see you now. I can see you now.

PN858

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes. Administer the affirmation to the witness, please.

PN859

THE ASSOCIATE: Mr Greer, can you please state your full name and address?

PN860

MR GREER: Donald Bruce Greer, I'm at (address supplied).

<DONALD BRUCE GREER, AFFIRMED�� [11.05 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR KEMPPI�� [11.05 AM]

PN861

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Kemppi.

PN862

MR KEMPPI: Thank you. Hello, Mr Greer, it's Sunil Kemppi here from the ACTU. I just want to check, because we're doing this virtually, you can hear me and see me okay?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN863

Great. Just let me know if you can't at any point, I can repeat what I say. Could I just get you to state your full name, occupation and work address for the record, please?‑‑‑It's Donald Bruce Greer. I'm a vocational services officer with Minda down at our Reynella packaging site which is on Panalatinga Road, Reynella.

PN864

Great and have you prepared two witness statements in these proceedings?‑‑‑Yes.

PN865

I'm just going to identify those with you. Is the first of those titled, 'Witness Statement of Donald Greer'? It runs to four pages with 22 paragraphs and is dated Friday, 20 May?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN866

Great and is the second of those titled, 'Further Witness Statement of Donald Greer'? It runs to two pages with 14 paragraphs and is dated Friday, 22 July?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN867

Correct. Are there any changes you would like to make to either of those statements?‑‑‑No.

PN868

No? Sorry, was that a no?‑‑‑Yes, that was a no, sorry. Yes, no.

PN869

Thanks, I just missed that. Are those two statements then true and correct to the best of your knowledge and beliefs?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� DONALD BRUCE GREER�� XN MR KEMPPI

PN870

Thank you. I seek to tender those two statements.

PN871

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The witness statement of Donald Greer dated 20 May 2022 will be marked exhibit T.

EXHIBIT #T WITNESS STATEMENT OF DONALD GREER DATED 20/05/2022

PN872

The further witness statement of Donald Greer dated 22 July 2022 will be marked exhibit U.

EXHIBIT #U FURTHER WITNESS STATEMENT OF DONALD GREER DATED 22/07/2022

PN873

MR KEMPPI: Thank you, Vice President. Thank you, Mr Greer. I'll now hand you over to Mr Ward for the employer parties, who is going to ask you a few questions?‑‑‑Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD�� [11.07 AM]

PN874

MR WARD: Mr Greer, can you see me?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN875

Excellent. Excellent. Mr Greer, my name's Nigel Ward. I appear in these proceedings for, as Mr Kemppi described them, the employer interests. I'm just going to ask you some questions. If at any stage you don't understand a question, feel comfortable to ask me to repeat it, okay?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN876

Can I just start with a little bit of housekeeping. Do you have both of your statements in front of you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN877

Very early this morning we sent Mr Kemppi some documents to provide to you. Do you have a copy of those?‑‑‑I'm not sure what you mean by that.

PN878

We sent Mr Kemppi a variety of documents. I'll explain to you what one of them was. One of them was the assessment guideline that you use when you first bring on a supported employee. Have you seen that?‑‑‑No, I haven't, sorry, no. I - - -

PN879

Just give us a moment. Mr Kemppi might have had an issue. Thank you?‑‑‑Thank you.

***�� DONALD BRUCE GREER�� XXN MR WARD

PN880

In fairness to the witness we might need to just adjourn for a moment, your Honour.

PN881

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What's happening, Mr Kemppi?

PN882

MR KEMPPI: Apologies, Vice President. I'm not sure. They have been sent through but there might be a mix up at the other end. I'm just going to make a phone call to make sure.

PN883

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is there any other matters you can ask this witness about without, you know, going to the documents?

PN884

MR WARD: I can probably take about six minutes and then I'm going to go to those documents.

PN885

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We'll just adjourn until this is sorted out.

PN886

MR WARD: Thank you, your Honour.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW�� [11.09 AM]

SHORT ADJOURNMENT�� [11.09 AM]

RESUMED�� [11.18 AM]

<DONALD BRUCE GREER, RECALLED�� [11.18 AM]

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD, CONTINUING�� [11.18 AM]

PN887

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Ward.

PN888

MR WARD: Thank you. Mr Greer, can you hear me again?‑‑‑Yes.

PN889

Thank you. Thank you. Can I just take you to your first statement briefly and then I'm going to jump you to your second if, if I can, and then I'll come back to the first. You say in paragraph 1 of your statement that you started work at Minda around 2004. Do you see that?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

***�� DONALD BRUCE GREER�� XXN MR WARD

PN890

What work did you do before joining Minda?‑‑‑I've done a number of jobs. I was in the navy when I first started my working career. Then I went into work in a hospital. I've worked in a mortuary, I've worked on wards. I've done � I started nurse training here at Queen Elizabeth Hospital. I've worked in some factories. I worked for a lens manufacturer and did photochromic lenses, transitions. And I've worked in a wire factory.

PN891

That will do, I think we've got the gist of it, Mr Greer, that's fine. And do you hold any formal qualification?‑‑‑I have a cert 4 in disabilities. I have a frontline management cert 4 and that's about it, I think, yes.

PN892

Can I take you to � no, I'll withdraw that. I just want to see if I understand how you're structured. I'm just going to put some propositions to you. Let me know if I'm right or wrong with those propositions. I understand that Minda use the word, 'team leader', and, 'VSO', interchangeably. They're essentially the same thing?‑‑‑Yes, I believe so, yes.

PN893

Yes but you're a VSO?‑‑‑Yes because I � when we transitioned from Minda to Sage which I'm still part of Minda, I kept my title as VSO.

PN894

But essentially, from your knowledge, a VSO and a team leader do the same thing?‑‑‑I believe so, yes.

PN895

When you're working in your job do you work with other team leaders in your group or are you the only team leader person in your group?‑‑‑In my immediate group?

PN896

Yes, in your immediate group?‑‑‑I work pretty much by myself.

PN897

Do you have line leaders underneath you?‑‑‑Not in the immediate area where I'm working, no.

PN898

So in your group you don't have line leaders but there might be line leaders in other groups?‑‑‑There are line leaders in other groups, yes.

PN899

I understand there's somebody called a supervisor. Is that who you report to?‑‑‑An area supervisor, there are two of those, yes.

PN900

Is that your boss?‑‑‑My immediate supervisor, yes.

***�� DONALD BRUCE GREER�� XXN MR WARD

PN901

Am I right that your role is to support the supported employee in terms of their behaviour and their development? Is that a reasonable description?‑‑‑That's reasonable, yes.

PN902

Did you want to add anything to it?‑‑‑No but I also do the job that the supported employees are doing. So, for instance, if I'm packing caps in a bag, I will be packing caps in a bag, I'll be sealing them, I'll be checking them. That's what many of my supported employees do.

PN903

So but your purpose in your job is to actually support the employee in terms of their behaviours and their development?‑‑‑Yes and the job.

PN904

When you say their job, you mean making sure they do their job properly?‑‑‑Yes, yes, so they're doing it correctly. Our customers require us to fulfil their requirements, i.e. four caps in a bag, I make sure they're putting four caps in a bag.

PN905

I understand. Thank you very much. Can you just go to paragraph 10 of your second statement? You say this in paragraph 10:

PN906

When a new employee starts, they're usually trialled in a number of different roles on the shop floor. From there we work out what skills and capabilities they have which is then used to assign them to duties going forward.

PN907

Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN908

Yes, now, you might know this, you might not. It's my understanding when a new employee starts and I'm assuming you're talking there about a supported employee?‑‑‑Yes.

PN909

Yes, it's my understanding that when they start they go through an assessment. Is that your understanding?‑‑‑I believe that's true. I've never actually seen it happen and I've never been involved. Well, I haven't been involved in it since we've been at Reynella.

PN910

I just want to see what models you have advanced, so I've sent you a document which is headed, 'Initial Skills Assessment'. It's about six or seven pages long. Do you have that in front of you?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

***�� DONALD BRUCE GREER�� XXN MR WARD

PN911

Just for clarity, it starts off with language, eyesight, reading, standing, colour recognition, colour matching. Is that the document you've got in front of you?‑‑‑No, I don't have that. I have � my one first starts with image one, visual clue. Then I have a custom jig. So I've got nine pages.

PN912

I'll do my best with this. You should have in front of you a document that is of some seven pages long and it'll have written on the top, 'Initial Skills Assessment', and if you look at it you will see that on the front page it will have a heading, 'Language', then a heading, 'Eyesight', then a heading, 'Reading', then a heading, 'Standing'. Do you have that?‑‑‑No, I don't. No, I have nine pages.

PN913

It sounds like you have everything but the one I want you to look at it?‑‑‑It sounds like I do.

PN914

Just bear with us, Mr Greer?‑‑‑Yes.

PN915

Your Honour, I can come back to this, if Mr Kemppi can deal with it.

PN916

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, well, Mr Kemppi can't be absent during the cross-examination.

PN917

MR WARD: Yes.

PN918

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We'll just wait. You make your phone call, Mr Kemppi, then see if that sorts it out.

PN919

MR KEMPPI: I may have sorted out my messages. There's a further copy of that document coming.

PN920

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: If the document is coming, can you move onto something else, Mr Ward, and move back to it?

PN921

MR WARD: I can. I'll move onto a very different topic and I'll come back to that. Mr Greer, we'll come back to that, so you'll have to bear with me I'm afraid?‑‑‑I've just got the document.

PN922

Have you? You've got it in front of you. Okay?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� DONALD BRUCE GREER�� XXN MR WARD

PN923

To be fair to you, Mr Greer, I should ask you, have you seen this before?‑‑‑No.

PN924

You don't know that this is the document that's used to assess people when they arrive?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN925

You've never seen any document related to an assessment of a person before?‑‑‑Not of this � not like this one, no.

PN926

No. Are you telling me that this isn't the document or are you telling me that you just don't know?‑‑‑I don't know about this document, no.

PN927

But you do � from your evidence you do suggest that there is some process when people start?‑‑‑Yes.

PN928

For instance, you do not � I just want to make sure I understand this. You don't have any knowledge that people have language assessed, eyesight assessed, reading ability, colour matching, colour recognition assessed? You don't know anything about that?‑‑‑No.

PN929

No, we'll leave that. So in paragraph 10 when you say they're usually trialled in a number of different roles, what do you mean by that?‑‑‑So when a supported employee is brought out onto the floor for a first time, either as a work trial or as a new member, a new person on the job, they're usually brought into an area. I've had our training and support people ask me, 'Is it okay if such-and-such works here?' And I'll say, 'Yes, that's fine.' And then I'll then go on to show that person what the job is. In my instance where I'm working with a job we call Clipsal which is Clipsal parts, so light fittings and electrical bits and pieces, they're usually screws, that type of thing. I'll then show them what we're doing and then that's how we will work from there.

PN930

You have no knowledge of the assessment that's been undertaken beforehand to work out the person's capacity?‑‑‑No.

PN931

Who presents the person to you? Is that your supervisor?‑‑‑Quite often it's been one of the training and support people.

PN932

That's separate to the supervisor and that's separate to the team leaders?‑‑‑Yes.

PN933

I take it then that when that person is presented to you, you're trying to determine whether or not they have the requisite capacity to do the work?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� DONALD BRUCE GREER�� XXN MR WARD

PN934

Do you train them in how to do the work?‑‑‑On-the-job training, yes. I also, if we have a group that's already doing that job, I'll set them up as I would one of those supported employees that's already doing the job and we'll work from there.

PN935

If you formed the view that they didn't have the capacity to do the job, you would tell the trainer person who brought them to you in the first place, would you?‑‑‑Possibly, yes.

PN936

Who else would you tell?‑‑‑Or I would tell my area supervisor.

PN937

You would use your knowledge, having observed them in terms of their capacity, to determine whether or not they're suited to that work or they should go and do some other work?‑‑‑Yes.

PN938

Can I take you to paragraph � I'll start at paragraph 13 of your first statement. I'll take you there. In paragraph 13 you give an example, do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN939

I just want to put to you my understanding of what that involves and just let me know if you agree with me or not. This job, the supported employees, they sit around a table, do they, to do this job?‑‑‑Generally, yes.

PN940

Is that similar to the table you're sitting at now?‑‑‑Yes, very similar, yes.

PN941

Do they get themselves to the table or do they need assistance sometimes in being brought to the table?‑‑‑Sometimes they'll need assistance. We have sight impaired and people who use walkers. We have a couple in wheelchairs so we'll need to set the area up so they can get themselves in.

PN942

Is that part of your job?‑‑‑Yes.

PN943

So let's assume that they're all sitting at the table. I assume that somebody brings to the table the materials that the workers are going to be working on. Who brings that to the table?‑‑‑Usually myself, in my case. I do have one or two supported employees that I can call upon to help me with that.

PN944

I take it they have the capacity to do that?‑‑‑They might. What we consider to be higher skilled, yes.

***�� DONALD BRUCE GREER�� XXN MR WARD

PN945

Higher skilled. Is that a determination you've made in your team that they're higher skilled or is that a broader process?‑‑‑It's a determination I've made, experience I've got and I would say that others would do the same, I guess.

PN946

In relation to those you've made a decision that they have more capacity to do work and you've given them, for want of a way of putting it, a more interesting role?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN947

Yes and so the supervisor brings what you require to the table and does each person do the same job in filling the bags or do people have different parts of the job?‑‑‑Generally they would all have the same. For instance, I might be doing two sized caps, so I will run some people with the smaller caps and some with the bigger caps. Some are quite capable of doing both without getting it all mixed up so, yes, that's how I'd work it.

PN948

I just want to go back to the document I sent you. There should be a document that says, 'Image 1 Visual Cue'. Do you have that in front of you?‑‑‑'Visual cue', yes.

PN949

Is this something that's used to help support an employee sort the caps?‑‑‑Yes.

PN950

Just bear with me, I'm just going to give it to the Commission and then I'm going to ask you some more questions about it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN951

Bear with me. If I could tender that?

PN952

MR KEMPPI: No objection.

PN953

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Document entitled 'Image 1 Visual Cue', will be marked exhibit V.

EXHIBIT #V DOCUMENTS ENTITLED 'IMAGE 1 VISUAL CUE' AND 'IMAGE 2 CUSTOM JIG'

PN954

MR WARD: Thank you, your Honour.

***�� DONALD BRUCE GREER�� XXN MR WARD

PN955

Mr Greer, how would this be practically used?‑‑‑So this is a card, so if we've got caps, we have two different sized caps. So think about the caps that are in your light switches to cover over the screws at the top. So they're either small or large. They would then have a tub of caps, so we use a take-away type container which is roughly � can you see what I'm pointing out?

PN956

Yes, yes?‑‑‑So, yes, and they would take each cap and place it on each of those dots. That would represent how many we need. In this case it would be 16. Generally it's between four and eight on most jobs. So, yes, they would put the caps on those. Then they would take the cap from that dot and put it into the bag.

PN957

I take it that the visual cue card is to ensure that people get the right sort and the right number?‑‑‑Yes.

PN958

Mr Greer, is there some process of sealing the bag at the end of this exercise?‑‑‑Yes, there is.

PN959

Who does that and how is that done?‑‑‑Well, once again, it's either a higher skilled employee. I have one in particular that is quite good at checking, so she will check to make sure what's supposed to be in the bag is correct and then she will seal it. We use a static type sealer. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that. So we will do about six bags at a time. It will either be the higher skilled employee or it will be myself. Generally I do that as well.

PN960

Thank you and I'm not aware of what a static sealer is, Mr Greer, you might just help me with that?‑‑‑Okay. So it's � so for single plastic you just need a bit of heat applied to it. It's about so wide, can you see what I'm pointing out?

PN961

Yes?‑‑‑It has a bar, you put the bag onto the bar and then you press a button or two buttons in our case, which will then clamp the bag between a clamp and that will then � you apply the heat which will then seal that plastic bag.

PN962

It's a partially automated process?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN963

In that somebody has to put the bag into the - - -?‑‑‑Yes, you have to line the bags up along the bar, yes.

PN964

Yes and in your case the person who does that, is that essentially their job?‑‑‑Generally, yes. I'll have, once again, a higher skilled employee who knows what they're doing and is able to do that job or it'll be myself.

***�� DONALD BRUCE GREER�� XXN MR WARD

PN965

What happens to the bag, then? Are they put in a tub in the middle of the table when that person seals them?‑‑‑They're put into a tub. So the tub will just sit above the sealer. They will go straight into that tub and then I will then be checking most of that work when I count it out. We used scales to count it out with, so I will then do that.

PN966

That's your job? That's part of your job?‑‑‑Yes.

PN967

I take it then that when you're happy with that, that all gets moved somewhere?‑‑‑Yes, it depends on the customer requirements. Sometimes we have to put it in � so we've got, like, as I said, up to 10,000 bags. That's just an example. They'll have to be split up into, say, 100, 150, 200 bags which will go into a bigger bag which will then once again be sealed.

PN968

Is that your job or is that somebody else's job?‑‑‑That's my job.

PN969

That's your job. If I can take you to paragraph 16, you say in paragraph 16:

PN970

Working with the supported employees �

PN971

I assume that means your team, does it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN972

That's fine, that's fine:

PN973

...involves a few different aspects including providing general support and oversight to ensure they understand how to perform the tasks required for the particular job we are running. This can involve giving visual cues if a supported employee is unsure or providing assistance if they encounter a difficulty.

PN974

What did you mean cues?‑‑‑The card we were talking about.

PN975

The card, right. Do you use - - -?‑‑‑And also, yes, practical demonstration.

PN976

So if somebody wasn't putting the screws in the back properly, you might have to explain to them again how to do it?‑‑‑Yes. For instance, using that card they might just grab a handful of caps and put them along the card and then sort them out, so there will be extra caps around. So I will have to then explain to them to take those caps away and only count � only use the ones that are on the dots.

***�� DONALD BRUCE GREER�� XXN MR WARD

PN977

I understand. I understand. You also say:

PN978

...if a supported employee is unsure or providing assistance if they encounter a difficulty.

PN979

What do you mean by difficulty?‑‑‑Ensuring that there's the right amount of caps or screws or whatever.

PN980

That's not a reference to behavioural difficulties then?‑‑‑It can be.

PN981

What type of behavioural difficulties do you deal with?‑‑‑Well, they could be anxious about it, especially if they make a mistake, that type of difficulty. They could try to rush it, you know, go too fast, therefore making more mistakes. Those types of things.

PN982

In paragraph 17 you go on to say:

PN983

Some supported employees will require very little assistance or support.

PN984

I take it that's the ones you've described as higher skilled?‑‑‑Well, a lower skilled person can do a job such as, you know, eight caps in a bag and not be considered higher skilled because they can't do the rest of the job.

PN985

But it might be that that person doesn't require much support because they can do that very contained activity themselves?‑‑‑Yes.

PN986

You then go on to say:

PN987

If a supported employee requires a lot of assistance or support it may mean that they simply end up performing work at a slower pace. In that case we usually provide them with less work with other supported employees, or the line leader picking up slack.

PN988

Is that just a case of somebody's just going very slowly through the task rather than getting it wrong?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� DONALD BRUCE GREER�� XXN MR WARD

PN989

Does that happen?‑‑‑I can think of one example of one of my supported employees, a person with Down Syndrome and he goes extremely slow. So he would possibly do five bags in an hour. Whereas some employees can do 100 bags in an hour.

PN990

But he still has the capacity to do bags?‑‑‑Yes.

PN991

Yes and then you say in paragraph 18:

PN992

If a supported employee is unable to perform the job at all usually they will be assigned to a different job instead.

PN993

Do you make that decision?‑‑‑I have made that decision.

PN994

If you take your example of the person who only does five bags an hour, am I right in saying that you're still comfortable that that person has the capacity to do the job?‑‑‑Yes.

PN995

Could you give me an example where you would make a decision that they don't have the capacity to do that job?‑‑‑I think I gave you an example in my second statement.

PN996

I might have missed it?‑‑‑Where we had � so the second statement, 12, number 12.

PN997

I'm just reading, Mr Greer, just a moment. So that's a case where you've decided somebody has more capacity and you've put them in a more difficult job, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes. Well, when you say make the decision that they've got more capacity, they have shown that they could do jobs such as that in the past, so they're once again given a go at that job because that's available.

PN998

Is it the case that you normally do that so that people have the most fulfilling job they can have?‑‑‑Yes, I believe I personally try to give our supported employees as much variety as they want and (indistinct).

PN999

If I just take you back, then, to paragraph 18. Paragraph 18 in the first statement, I don't think that's talking about stepping up. I got the impression that was talking about somebody not being able to do the job at all is what you said?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1000

I take it then they don't have the capacity to do that job so you work out a job that fits them, do you, and give them that job?‑‑‑Generally, yes.

***�� DONALD BRUCE GREER�� XXN MR WARD

PN1001

Do you have an example of that?‑‑‑I have one supported employee with Down Syndrome once again, who doesn't have the capacity to stay on the job and do the job such as what I've been talking about, packing caps into a bag. So then I'll get that supported employee to help me remove rubbish from the area, bring in other resources, so just pick up boxes and help me put them on the shelves, that sort of thing.

PN1002

Is it you who makes the assessment that they're capable of doing that other job or is it somebody else?‑‑‑Generally it's me in my area, yes.

PN1003

I think you say at the end of paragraph 18, you talk about, 'with an aim to find something easier based on what is available'. That's an example of where you found something easier for the person to do?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1004

Just a moment if I can, Mr Greer?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1005

Do you also sometimes change how the job is actually done? Do you sometimes introduce things like jigs and things like that, to make it easier?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1006

Can I ask you to go to image 2 which is a photograph of what's said to be a custom jig. Do you have that?‑‑‑Yes, yes, I do.

PN1007

Have you seen those types of jigs in Minda?‑‑‑I have seen them, yes, yes.

PN1008

I might hand that up now so you can see what I'm talking about. I'd seek to tender that.

PN1009

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Are there anymore of these coming, Mr Ward?

PN1010

MR WARD: I don't think so, your Honour. I apologise, I was trying to keep it to - - -

PN1011

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I might include that as part of exhibit V.

PN1012

MR WARD: Thank you.

PN1013

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So exhibit V will be image 1 and image 2.

***�� DONALD BRUCE GREER�� XXN MR WARD

PN1014

MR WARD: Mr Greer, where would a jig like this be used?‑‑‑When we're counting caps. So, as I said before, we have a tub of caps.

PN1015

Yes?‑‑‑And normally they will take them out one by one or sometimes they'll take them out more than one by one but the idea is to take out one by one and put them on the card. This type of jig is used like a scoop. So you dig into the tub, you lift it up, you shake off, or that's the idea, you shake off the caps and there should � one cap should go into each one of those little holes. Probably the bottom image is best to see. They've got little holes in them so the caps would sit in there. And then they would then take that and put it straight in the bag, turn it so they � all the caps fill the bag. That's the idea.

PN1016

If somebody was struggling with the visual cue card, this might be an alternative?‑‑‑That might be an alternative, yes.

PN1017

You make the decision whether or not somebody needs something like that?‑‑‑Yes. I have to say I'm not satisfied that they work very well but that my opinion.

PN1018

I'd encourage you to suggest how they could be improved, sir?‑‑‑Yes, I will.

PN1019

Could I just take you to paragraph 20? You inform us at paragraph 20 that you supervise a variety of employees with a variety of conditions. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1020

I'm happy for you to go through these one by one if it's convenient. What's the behavioural impact of those conditions when people are performing the work?‑‑‑Well, once again autism. I'm not sure of your understanding of autism but they can quite often be very focused on one thing and one thing only as opposed to the whole job. They can also get very anxious. They can then start to display things like yelling, screaming out, which I interpret as being them getting frustrated. Down Syndrome are very � what � I don't like using this word but pig-headed. Like, they'll just want to do it their way which is not often - - -

PN1021

Obstinate?‑‑‑Yes, that's a good word, yes. Obstinate. So they will then, you know, they'll be fixed on doing it their way and it might not be, you know, the way that it needs to be done, so we end up with the same, you know, if it ends up with the same result then that's fine but if it doesn't, then it becomes a problem. So that type of thing.

***�� DONALD BRUCE GREER�� XXN MR WARD

PN1022

Again, if somebody is displaying behaviours that mean they can't do the work, you'll make an assessment of some other work that they are capable of doing?‑‑‑Generally, yes.

PN1023

Nothing further. Thank you, Mr Greer. Thanks very much?‑‑‑Thank you.

PN1024

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination, Mr Kemppi?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KEMPPI�� [11.50 AM]

PN1025

MR KEMPPI: Thank you, Vice President, yes.

PN1026

Thank you, Mr Greer. I just have a couple of - a few short questions for you.

PN1027

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Kemppi, can I ask you to move the microphone closer to the lectern? I think there may be some problems with people hearing you.

PN1028

MR KEMPPI: Thank you.

PN1029

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Maybe just speak a bit louder too.

PN1030

MR KEMPPI: I shall.

PN1031

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: More like Mr Harding.

PN1032

MR KEMPPI: I shall do my best to emulate.

PN1033

MR HARDING: No, don't do that.

PN1034

MR KEMPPI: Mr Greer, can I just confirm you can hear me loud and clear?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1035

Great, thank you. I just want to pick up a couple of things that came out from the questions that Mr Ward was asking you. Now, you were asked to and you described a work scenario, the work that happens at the table?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� DONALD BRUCE GREER�� RXN MR KEMPPI

PN1036

When you say in your statement that you're sometimes required to do the same role as supported employees, one example of that would be the work you describe as occurring at the table packing caps?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1037

Great and then at paragraph 19, you were taken to paragraph 19. Sorry, you were also taken to paragraph 18 of your statement, the paragraph that starts, 'If a supported employee is unable'?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1038

When you talk about the supported employee being assigned to an alternate job, are you talking about a pre-existing alternate job?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1039

Thank you. No further questions.

PN1040

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you for your evidence, Mr Greer. You're excused which means you can simply disconnect?‑‑‑Okay. I don't know how to do that but anyway.

PN1041

You can leave the room is another one, another option.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW�� [11.52 AM]

PN1042

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Are we ready to proceed to Ms Smith?

PN1043

MR KEMPPI: To the best of my knowledge, yes, Ms Smith is waiting outside.

PN1044

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: In the same room?

PN1045

MR KEMPPI: Indeed, yes.

PN1046

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Let's get Ms Smith in.

PN1047

MR KEMPPI: I'm told they are just walking in now.

PN1048

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Smith, can you see and hear us?

PN1049

MS SMITH: I can hear you, not � I can see you now, yes.

***�� DONALD BRUCE GREER�� RXN MR KEMPPI

PN1050

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That's all right. We will just have one of my associates administer the affirmation to you, then we'll take your evidence.

PN1051

THE ASSOCIATE: Ms Smith, can you please state your full name and address?

PN1052

MS SMITH: Robyn Michelle Jodie Smith, (address supplied).

<ROBYN MICHELLE JODIE SMITH, AFFIRMED�� [11.56 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR KEMPPI�� [11.56 AM]

PN1053

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Kemppi.

PN1054

MR KEMPPI: Thank you. Hello, Ms Smith. It's Sunil Kemppi here from the ACTU. Can I just confirm that you can hear me all right and see me?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1055

Great, thank you. Just for the record, could you please state your full name and occupation?‑‑‑Robyn Michelle Jodie Smith, I'm a vocational services officer.

PN1056

Your work address?‑‑‑I don't know the number but Panalatinga Road at Reynella.

PN1057

Have you prepared two witness statements in these proceedings?‑‑‑I have, yes.

PN1058

Do you have copies of those in front of you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1059

Great. I'm just going to get you to identify those. Is the first of these titled, 'Witness statement of Robyn Smith'?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1060

It should be three pages long and 17 paragraphs?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN1061

Dated 20 May?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1062

The second is titled, 'Further witness statement of Robyn Smith', two pages long, 10 paragraphs, dated Friday, 22 July?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN1063

Are there any changes that you'd like to make to those statements?‑‑‑No.

***�� ROBYN MICHELLE JODIE SMITH�� XN MR KEMPPI

PN1064

No. Then are they true and correct to the best of your knowledge?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1065

Thank you. I seek to tender those documents.

PN1066

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The witness statement of Robyn Smith dated 20 May 2022 will be marked exhibit W.

EXHIBIT #W WITNESS STATEMENT OF ROBYN SMITH DATED 20/05/2022

PN1067

The further witness statement of Robyn Smith dated 22 July 2022 will be marked exhibit X.

EXHIBIT #X FURTHER WITNESS STATEMENT OF ROBYN SMITH DATED 22/07/2022

PN1068

MR KEMPPI: Thank you. I have no further questions, I'm going to hand you over to Mr Ward who will ask you a few questions. He is representing the employer parties.

PN1069

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Ward.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD�� [11.58 AM]

PN1070

MR WARD: Thank you, your Honour.

PN1071

Ms Smith, can you see me?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1072

Thank you, Ms Smith. As Mr Kemppi said, I appear in these proceedings for the employer parties. I'm just going to ask you some questions. If you don't understand any question, just ask me to restate it and we'll get through as easily as we can. I'm nervous for the first thing. I had asked for a variety of documents to be provided to you. I'm anxious that they're not in front of you. Can you tell me what you might have in front � no, you've only got that?‑‑‑I have got quite a few here that I have just been handed.

PN1073

Let me see how I go. Let me see how I go. It might be that you don't know anything about what I've given you so that might make it very easy anyway, so we'll see?‑‑‑Okay.

***�� ROBYN MICHELLE JODIE SMITH�� XXN MR WARD

PN1074

Bear with me, Ms Smith. You say you've been at Minda since 2009?‑‑‑Yes, probably about that, yes.

PN1075

What qualifications do you hold?‑‑‑I was originally a DSW, cert 3 in disability and aged care. And then I moved over to the work sector where I am now a VSO.

PN1076

I'm right that the phrase VSO in Minda is interchangeable with being a team leader?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN1077

You give an example in your evidence, in your first statement at paragraph 5, about some packing and unpacking. Do you normally work in a particular part of the operation?‑‑‑I'm in the packaging sector but I do move around a bit.

PN1078

Within that packaging sector you could be involved in packing pigs' ears one day or packing screws and bolts another?‑‑‑That's correct, depending on who the individual is that I'm working with.

PN1079

You've jumped ahead of me but what do you mean by, 'the individual I'm working with'?‑‑‑Okay. Sometimes I work one-on-one, sometimes I work one-to-two and sometimes I work in a team of 10 to 12 people.

PN1080

Do you know Mr Greer?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1081

Is he working in the factory with you when you're working in it?‑‑‑Yes, we might not be on the actual same job but he works in the same factory, yes.

PN1082

That's okay. Just that helped me for clarification, that's fine. Can I start by taking you to paragraph 6 of your first statement. You say in paragraph 6:

PN1083

A typical job for them might be packing a certain number of pet treats into bags.

PN1084

Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1085

I take it that when you're talking about the supported employees there, are they all gathered around a table?‑‑‑There's probably about three tables where they will sit at and pack.

***�� ROBYN MICHELLE JODIE SMITH�� XXN MR WARD

PN1086

How many would be at each table?‑‑‑Four to six.

PN1087

As the VSO, are you responsible for all three tables or just one table?‑‑‑The whole work area itself, the whole lot.

PN1088

I take it that in relation to that job somebody will bring the materials the employees will work on and put them on the tables?‑‑‑Sorry, could you repeat that, please?

PN1089

So obviously the employees are sitting at the table when work starts, aren't they?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1090

Yes, do you normally have troubles getting them to sit at the tables? Do you have to help them?‑‑‑Occasionally some of them will need direction on where to sit, yes.

PN1091

Let's assume they're all at the table. Does somebody then bring to the table what the employees are going to be working on?‑‑‑Yes, or we could already have the work set up that morning for them.

PN1092

Would that be your job?‑‑‑Anyone's. It could be mine or delegate someone to help do that.

PN1093

Who would you delegate it to?‑‑‑That would be another supported employee.

PN1094

Would you delegate it to that employee because you've made the decision they have the capacity to do that?‑‑‑Yes, I suppose so.

PN1095

When people are sitting at the table with the pigs' ears, can you just explain to me, I take it that there's a certain number of pigs' ears that go in a bag?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN1096

Would the pigs' ears be laid out in a pile on the table and people just take pigs' ears from there?‑‑‑Yes, they're in a tub and people collect it, yes.

PN1097

We had some evidence about using visual aids and jigs to help people understand that they've got the right number. I take it that would be very difficult with pigs' ears?‑‑‑For a jig?

***�� ROBYN MICHELLE JODIE SMITH�� XXN MR WARD

PN1098

Yes?‑‑‑Is that what you're saying?

PN1099

Yes?‑‑‑I'm not actually sure if they have. No, I don't think they have a jig for the pigs' ears, yes.

PN1100

So I take it that somebody has made � you've made an assessment that the people have the capacity to count the right number of pigs' ears?‑‑‑That's not usually up to me to make that assessment. They're just already put into those groups.

PN1101

Who would make that assessment?‑‑‑We have teams. We have the team leader, the line leader and then they have their team and their area supervisor has made that decision on who's in those teams.

PN1102

You might not be aware of this, I don't know, but are you aware that when somebody starts work as a supported employee at Minda that they undertake an assessment? Are you aware of that?‑‑‑Yes, I am aware, yes.

PN1103

Could I just ask you, there should be a document in front of you which is headed, 'Initial Skills Assessment'. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1104

It's got on the front page, 'Language, eyesight, reading, standing', and then it goes onto colour recognition, colour matching. Are you aware that this is the document that's used for the initial assessment?‑‑‑No, I haven't seen it before.

PN1105

Do you understand, though, that the things that are in this document, I'm happy for you to read it, are what people are assessed on in terms of their capacity when they start?‑‑‑No, I was not aware. I'm aware that they do do an assessment but I was not aware of what they actually do in the assessment.

PN1106

I won't take it any further on that, that's fine. So you're aware there's an assessment, you're not aware of its details, and then somebody other than you decides what work people have the capacity to do and then they assign them to the role?‑‑‑Are you talking about a new supported employee after they've had the assessment done?

PN1107

Yes?‑‑‑They're just brought out onto the floor and they're introduced to us and then, 'Can they come join your work?'

***�� ROBYN MICHELLE JODIE SMITH�� XXN MR WARD

PN1108

In the first couple of days you're there, what's your job with them?‑‑‑I will sometimes report back to the staff and let them know how the person is going.

PN1109

So if you thought that that person didn't have the capacity to do the job you were monitoring, you would tell people they don't have the capacity to do that job?‑‑‑That's right.

PN1110

Would you possibly recommend a different job or would you leave that to somebody else?‑‑‑Possibly, yes.

PN1111

Possibly leave it to somebody else or possibly make the recommendation?‑‑‑It would be both. It would be both, yes.

PN1112

Both, so � I'll withdraw that. If you take the pigs' ears as the example does everybody sitting around that table do the same job with the pigs' ears or is there a difference in what people do?‑‑‑The majority would be sitting at the table packing.

PN1113

Yes?‑‑‑And there would be a couple at the end standing with the team leader doing the end part of the job, a different part.

PN1114

What does the end part of the job involve?‑‑‑It might be quality checking to see how many are in the bag but usually that is the team leader that would be doing that or line leader. But a supported employee might be sealing the work and then another supported employee might be putting it onto the pallet.

PN1115

Just deal with them one by one. That you might have a supported employee who's doing the quality checks to make sure there's six in each bag?‑‑‑Not usually. Usually that is a staff, yes.

PN1116

You might have a supported employee sealing the bag?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1117

Is it you who's made the decision that they have the capacity to do that?‑‑‑Yes. What we're talking about, I don't normally run this job but, yes, it would be the team leader on the job that would make that decision, yes.

PN1118

When you gave evidence of that, it was something you observed rather than you were directly involved in?‑‑‑Yes, I've done it a long time ago in the past but not of late, yes.

***�� ROBYN MICHELLE JODIE SMITH�� XXN MR WARD

PN1119

But if there's � bear with me, I don't want to say this the wrong way � if there's easier jobs and harder jobs, it's a VSO's decision as to who has the capacity to do the easier job and who has the capacity to do the harder job?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN1120

As a VSO, are you always trying to make sure that the capacity of the individual is used so they have the most fulfilling job?‑‑‑I would like for it to be that way but usually it's a matter of quickly getting the job done.

PN1121

So it's not your decision whether or not somebody does the sealing job; it's somebody else's?‑‑‑No, it is up to me but it depends on who's there, how many people are there. There's many variables.

PN1122

People could be away sick and things like that. Okay. You then, in your statement, you talk about working with small groups. I think you start this conversation at paragraph 8. If I could ask you just to go to that just very briefly. You say:

PN1123

I usually work in small groups of three. For high behavioural supported employees who require a greater degree of support from me, I'll often work one-on-one. Some of the vocational service officers work in groups of one to 10 or even more.

PN1124

Who makes the decision that you're going to work one-to-three?‑‑‑They're my team, so the area supervisor had made up the teams for everyone and I have been assigned to that team.

PN1125

And - - -?‑‑‑It's mean to be a one � sorry.

PN1126

Sorry. No, go on. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, I'm sorry?‑‑‑It's meant to be a one-to-three group but it's usually either only one or two people. It's never really ever been three.

PN1127

So you sometimes work one-to-one or one-to-two?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN1128

Can you just explain to us, when you say, 'high behavioural supported employees', what do you mean by that?‑‑‑Sorry, I've just had something come up on my screen. It says that someone's waiting to come in the lobby, Clive Scott. I don't need any of that?

***�� ROBYN MICHELLE JODIE SMITH�� XXN MR WARD

PN1129

You can kick him out, that's fine. He works with me, Ms Smith, you can kick him out?‑‑‑Okay. Sorry, could you repeat that question now?

PN1130

No, that's fine. You say in your statement, I think you just said that you sometimes work one-on-one or one-on-two, and in your statement at paragraph 8 you talk about high behavioural supported employees?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1131

Can you just explain to me for a minute what you mean by high behavioural?‑‑‑One person has ADHD and he's on the spectrum, at the moment it's relationship issues that will distract him. So it's a matter of keeping him focused on the task.

PN1132

So that person has the capability to do the job but you have to - - -?‑‑‑Highly skilled.

PN1133

They're highly skilled?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1134

What job do they do? I take it they're not doing the pigs' ears?‑‑‑No, they run the job with me.

PN1135

They run it, right?‑‑‑They do everything that I do.

PN1136

So you've determined that they have a fairly high capacity to perform work but they have some behavioural issues you have to manage?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN1137

Is it your decision to work with somebody one-on-one or are you allocated to do that on a particular day or - - -?‑‑‑Yes, no, I'm assigned that person when they are at work, although all of last week I wasn't working with that person. The area supervisor made the decision that he would work in a larger team.

PN1138

When you work one-on-two is it the same thing that there are certain people who just need particular attention?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN1139

Just give me a moment, please. Ms Smith, thank you very much. Mr Kemppi might have some questions to follow up with.

PN1140

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination, Mr Kemppi?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KEMPPI�� [12.13 PM]

***�� ROBYN MICHELLE JODIE SMITH�� RXN MR KEMPPI

PN1141

MR KEMPPI: Thank you, yes. I have a couple of short questions. I believe Mr Ward was asking you about the one-to-one, one-to-two ratio between team leader and supported employee. That ratio could be different in other parts of the production area, is that right?‑‑‑What do you mean in other parts of the production?

PN1142

As in other team leaders may work with different numbers of supported employees?‑‑‑Yes, yes, most definitely.

PN1143

You were asked a question and I believe you gave an answer about whether or not you were able to give workers the most fulfilling role. Do you remember that question and what you said about that?‑‑‑That it's mainly about just getting the job done to make the deadlines that the customer had given.

PN1144

Great, thank you.

PN1145

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thanks for your evidence, Ms Smith. You're excused and free to go?‑‑‑Okay. Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW�� [12.15 PM]

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT�� [12.15 PM]

RESUMED�� [1.15 PM]

PN1146

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Grzentic, can you hear us? He can't hear us. We'll just try and work this out.

PN1147

MR GRZENTIC: Yes. Hello. Walter Grzentic here. I can hear.

PN1148

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: You can hear us?

PN1149

MR GRZENTIC: Yes.

PN1150

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Could you hear us all along?

PN1151

MR GRZENTIC: No. I think we were muted at our end.

***�� ROBYN MICHELLE JODIE SMITH�� RXN MR KEMPPI

PN1152

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, Mr Grzentic. Am I pronouncing your name correctly?

PN1153

MR GRZENTIC: Yes. That's fine.

PN1154

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. One of the court officer's is going to administer the affirmation to you ad then we will take your evidence.

PN1155

THE ASSOCIATE: Mr Grzentic, could you please state your full name and address?

PN1156

MR GRZENTIC: Walter Marcel Grzentic (address supplied).

<WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC, AFFIRMED�� [1.19 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR HARDING�� [1.19 PM]

PN1157

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Harding.

PN1158

MR HARDING: Yes, that's me.

PN1159

Mr Grzentic, is your name Walter Grzentic?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN1160

And is your address 288 Albert Street, Brunswick?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN1161

And have you made a statement for the purposes of these proceedings dated 20 May 2022?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN1162

And a further statement for the purposes of these proceedings dated 21 July 2022?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN1163

Have you read those statements recently?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN1164

Are they true and correct?‑‑‑Yes, they are.

PN1165

I tender those statements, your Honour.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XN MR HARDING

PN1166

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So the witness statement of Walter Grzentic dated 20 May 2022 will be marked exhibit Y.

EXHIBIT #Y WITNESS STATEMENT OF WALTER GRZENTIC DATED 20/05/2022

PN1167

And the further witness statement of Walter Grzentic dated 21 July 2022, will be marked exhibit Z.

EXHIBIT #Z FURTHER STATEMENT OF WALTER GRZENTIC DATED 21/07/2022

PN1168

MR HARDING: Thank you.

PN1169

Mr Grzentic, are you in the room by yourself?‑‑‑Yes. I am.

PN1170

Thank you.

PN1171

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Ward.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD�� [1.20 PM]

PN1172

MR WARD: Mr Grzentic, can you see me?‑‑‑Yes. I can see a lot of people, actually. It looks like a cinema.

PN1173

Well that will hopefully keep you more entertained than I will, but you can see me?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1174

We've met before. I suspect - I remember you, I suspect you don't remember me. But my name is Nigel Ward. I appear in these proceedings for the employer interests and I'm going to ask you some questions. Do you have both of your statements in front of you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN1175

Okay. I'm just going to start with the first statement, rather than the further witness statement. Can I just start with you, if I can, Mr Grzentic. What formal qualifications do you hold?‑‑‑I've got a bachelor of arts in a major in disability studies.

PN1176

So just so I can be sure, you don't have a degree in economics?‑‑‑No. But I have done some studies in accounting and economics that I started but didn't complete.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1177

You don't have a commerce degree?‑‑‑No. But again, I do have an interest in commerce, but I do not have a commerce degree.

PN1178

You don't have a degree in accounting?‑‑‑No. But again, I do do my own financial book and analyses, and et cetera.

PN1179

And you don't have a business degree, like a masters of business administration?‑‑‑No. No, I do have a Certificate IV in management of small business.

PN1180

Okay. So you've got an arts degree in disability studies and a Certificate IV in management. Is that right?‑‑‑In small business management.

PN1181

Small business management?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1182

And you say you're the director of Disability Expertise Australia, DEA. Yes?‑‑‑Australasia.

PN1183

Yes. And is that a - is that an incorporated entity, DEA? Is it a company?‑‑‑It's sort of as partnership and also as a sole trader.

PN1184

So you yourself are a sole trader, but you have a partner as well, do you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1185

I take it when you're a sole trader you just operate under your name with an ABN. Is that what you do or - - -?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

PN1186

And can you tell me who your partner is?‑‑‑It's my wife.

PN1187

Okay. And does she work in DEA or is that just a commercial arrangement to the side?‑‑‑That's a commercial arrangement.

PN1188

I won't go back to it again, Mr Grzentic. Thank you. In your statement at paragraph 2 you say:

PN1189

We specialise in disability employment, employment-related assessments for people with disability with the National Disability Insurance Scheme consultancy services.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1190

I take it the 'we' is DEA?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1191

And I take it DEA is essentially you?‑‑‑It's me and then there's up to 20-odd contractors as required.

PN1192

Okay. Is that what you're talking about in paragraph 4?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1193

And I take it those - when you say '20 contractors' is what you're saying there that you get contracts from the government to do assessments and you subcontract those - that work to other people?‑‑‑That's only one arm of the business. That's like the national panel of assessors, which is to do with, you know, Department of Social Services contract. But then there is also the National Disability Insurance Scheme and then there's other projects and other consultancies as required which might originate from an organisation or particular government funding.

PN1194

Okay. In paragraph 4 when you say, 'DEA contracts over 20 NPA accredited assessors'?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1195

The 20 contractors you are talking about there are doing SWS assessments?‑‑‑They do three types of assessments for the government. They do SWS assessments. They do ongoing support assessments and they do workplace modifications assessments. And that's part of the NPA contract with DSS.

PN1196

And are all of those broadly related to the SWS or some of them are completely unrelated?‑‑‑No. They're three different types of assessments, Nigel. So the SWS is to do with calculating an accurate and fair wage. The ongoing support assessments are to do with working with disability employment services and people with a disability as to their requirements to be able to maintain their employment and the workplace modification assessments are as per, you know, the title which is to go into someone's workplace and do a complete job analysis and task analysis and have at look how you can improve efficiency and effectiveness.

PN1197

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Grzentic, before we proceed further, can I just make it clear that out protocol is that we address people by their last names?‑‑‑Okay. So Mr Ward?

PN1198

Yes. So can you just bear that in mind, please?‑‑‑Okay. Thank you.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1199

MR WARD: So the 20 NPA-accredited assessors are doing all three types of work?‑‑‑Mr Ward, some of them only are able to perform one type of assessment. Some two and some three.

PN1200

In terms of yourself, when you are working as a sole trader under your ABN, do you predominantly do SWS assessment work or do you do other work now?‑‑‑I predominantly do SWS assessments and ongoing support assessments.

PN1201

And of your workload, what percentage of your workload out of a hundred per cent would be SWS assessments?‑‑‑They have declined since COVID. So there is probably been about 25 to 30 per cent loss of SWS assessments around Australia since COVID. So out of a hundred, 15 would be SWSs and 85 would be ongoing support assessments.

PN1202

And before COVID, what would you have said?‑‑‑There was far more SWS assessments, because there was more employees with a disability working. So that would have been in the order of probably around 20 out of a hundred. It

PN1203

And if it was 20 per cent of the workload is it reasonable to say it would have been 20 per cent of your revenue as a business or would it have been more?‑‑‑The national panel of assessors is only a part of the revenue. So there is the National Disability Insurance Scheme, there is consultancy, there's projects.

PN1204

So when you said before COVID 20 per cent of your workload was SWS assessments, is it reasonable to assume that was 20 per cent of your revenue?‑‑‑No, Mr Ward. The revenue of Disability Expertise Australasia, the national panel of assessors is probably only about half of the revenue.

PN1205

Okay. Mr Grzentic, can you tell you us of the SWS assessments that your business performs what proportion would be in open employment and what proportion would be in ADEs?‑‑‑Okay. The vast majority would be in open employment. There are reasons for that. There haven't been as many ADEs that are using the SWS and also there as a tender in 2018 for disability employment services national panel of assessors where there was twice as many successful NPA providers, which meant that we all lost about half market share. So that also had a bearing. Over time, also ADEs, some have moved from other wage-assessment tools to the SWS, but only in small numbers.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1206

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, Mr Ward - Mr Grzentic, you may or may not know that one of the propositions that we are considering in this proceeding is the extension in some form or other of the use of the SWS assessment tool across the entire ADE sector. Are you able to say anything about the capacity of SWS assessors across Australia to meet a requirement like that? For example, can your business ramp up to provide more of that work in the short or medium term?‑‑‑Ye. And, look, it is the service provider. So it's the national panel of assessors service provider that's contracted by DSS that would recruit onboard, induct, train - you know, assessors as required. And certainly if there was more assessments available, we would respond to that and so would - there's 94 national panel of assessors providers around that are contracted at the moment. Some are large and national and some are quite small. So they - they are the ones that prove NPA services and some of them have wage employees and some run with contractors and we also share a lot of contractors, but certainly we would be able to ramp up and respond to increased demand. And looking at the ADE sector, if you are looking at about 20,000, you know, SWS assessments, I think we could respond accordingly.

PN1207

All right. Thank you.

PN1208

MR WARD: Mr Grzentic, I might just take you back to the question his Honour the Vice President asked you about working ADEs versus open employment. Can ask you to go to paragraph 20 of your first statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1209

You say there:

PN1210

I have personally undertaken over 2000 SWS assessments in various industries and the various job roles. And over 200 SESA SWS assessments.

PN1211

?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1212

Would I be right in assuming that the SESA SWS assessments are ADE assessments?‑‑‑They are the ADEs that use the Supported Employment Services Award. There are other ADEs that use other modern awards or enterprise bargaining agreements.

PN1213

So of your 2000 and excuse my mathematics, of your 2000 roughly speaking about 10 per cent of your assessments have been in ADEs?‑‑‑That's me personally, but I also mentor all my staff when they are working in ADEs. And you would have noticed from my affidavit that I also was involved very closely with the proceedings that we're involved with today for a number of year, which also included involvement in the first major trial in 2016 and one mini trial in New South Wales thereafter.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1214

So when you have personally undertaken assessments in ADEs, it's about 10 per cent of the assessments you've done in your career?‑‑‑Yes, because I also give my staff opportunities, which I am even doing this week, to be able to increase their knowledge and skills. And I mean tour them to be able to do SESA assessments in ADEs. So, as an example, this week we've got a batch of them in Adelaide and there is a staff member that I've got there that hasn't had the opportunity and I will be mentoring her to complete those 10 SESA SWSs.

PN1215

Just so - I will ask you to question again. It's not that - just listen to my question. Of the 2000 assessments you have personally done, 10 per cent - broadly speaking, 10 per cent have been in ADEs. Is that a yes?‑‑‑Correct, Mr Ward.

PN1216

Now, I don't have an exact number, but am I right in saying that there are something in the order of 161 ADEs in Australia at the moment or don't you know how many there are?‑‑‑It's not the case that I have looked at the exact number recently.

PN1217

Do you have any reason to doubt my number?‑‑‑Not at ll.

PN1218

Okay. But it's my understanding that broadly speaking, 27 of the ADEs of that 161 currently use the SWS. Does that align with your knowledge?‑‑‑That - that's approximately where my knowledge is, yes.

PN1219

So in paragraph 20, when you say 10 per cent of your assessments were in ADEs, those assessments would have been in some of those 27 out of the 161? Is that correct?‑‑‑For sure, yes. That is correct. And just to, I suppose, give you a sense of the states that DEA covers services with the NPA contract; so, we service all of Victoria, most of South Australia, all of Tasmania, southern New South Wales and the ACT, and Far North Queensland. So it just depends which ADEs in which of those localities are actually using the SWS.

PN1220

Of the 200 assessments you have personally done in ADEs, have they been predominantly in one state in Australia or many?‑‑‑In Victoria.

PN1221

In Victoria. Can I take you to paragraph 7?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1222

You go back there to 1981 and you talk about a community living support service?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1223

My knowledge doesn't go back to that period of time. Was that a particular type of facility that operated at that time?‑‑‑Okay. Well, that's a reference to when I was involved in deinstitutionalisation when we moved people out of institutions. And the community living support service would transition them to living in the community in either share houses or by themselves. So the service was very much an accommodation support service.

PN1224

And so when you say 'moving people out of institutions', was that part of the Richmond report? Was that driven - is that the period you are talking about?‑‑‑I'm not aware of the Richmond Report. I am more, I suppose, a practitioner in that era in terms of actually meeting with people in institutions and devising a transition plan that moved them to the community and eventually led to the closure of certain institutions.

PN1225

So in paragraph 7 where you talk about one of your roles was to identify appropriate jobs, you were identifying appropriate jobs for people with a disability?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1226

And did you identify those jobs based on their capacity? How are you identifying appropriate jobs?‑‑‑In many cases, the people that we inherited from institutions did have a very low skill base, because they - it wasn't the case that skills development was a major focus when people lived in institutions. So, therefore we would do a skills analysis in terms of what people were able to do and that would be a starting point in, I suppose, decision-making as to potentially what they were capable of doing and in many cases it did lead to a placement in an ADE.

PN1227

So you did an assessment of their capacity that might have moved them from an institution into an ADE?‑‑‑Well, the journey, Mr Ward, would be initially from living in an institution to living in a community. And then, because of the Disability Services Act, which was a bit later, but also because of the State Disability Plan, we had to make sure that people, during the day, legally they either had to have a day placement or they had to have some work. They had to have an activity that they undertook from Monday to Friday during the day. So, we looked at people's capacity to work and whether they - you know, they had the skills to be able to learn other skills. But generally, Mr Ward, we inherited a lot of people that were a very low skill base, because everything was done for them in the institutions. So, even when it came to running a house or, you know, cooking or cleaning or washing, you know, we had to teach them those skills as quickly as possible.

PN1228

And by institutions, do you mean hospitals?‑‑‑No. They weren't hospitals. They were more disability institutions and the ones that we specialised in were the ones that were, sort of, very much a largely people with intellectual disabilities and/or behavioural issues. So we didn't work with the mental health system. We mainly worked with disability institutions.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1229

Okay. You then go on in paragraph 9, 10 and 11 to give some of your work background. Was that work background, at that stage, associated with assessments of people or the SWS or - what were you actually doing back then, around that period?‑‑‑Around that period also, I have involvements with labour-market training courses. And, you know, the skill share labour-market training which no longer exists; it got defunded eventually. And that was to get people - people with a disability prepared for employment in terms of doing different courses and skills development and pathways to employment courses.

PN1230

So would I be right in saying you've never worked - apart from your business, you've never worked in the private sector?‑‑‑Yes. I have worked in the private sector.

PN1231

Who have you worked for?‑‑‑I mean, my affidavit - my affidavit is very much pertaining to the relevance of my involvement here. So it more to do with all that I've done in the disability sector.

PN1232

Who have you had a job within the private sector?‑‑‑In the private sector at times, I used to manage service stations for Mobil and Caltex. I was in charge of office maintenance for what was then ICI, which is now Orica. I've brewed beer for Carlton and United Breweries.

PN1233

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, Mr Ward - what are we talking about the private sector now? I mean, is of the witness in the private sector right now?

PN1234

MR WARD: I just said - I said, 'Putting aside your' - I said, 'Putting aside what you do now.'

PN1235

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: And what is the relevance of the details of his employment?

PN1236

MR WARD: Well, because later on I want to understand what the witness understands by the word 'commercial'.

PN1237

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Well, maybe we can go straight to that.

PN1238

MR WARD: Well, thank you, your Honour.

PN1239

So let me go to that then. Can I take you to paragraph 23?‑‑‑Okay.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1240

Paragraph 23 you say:

PN1241

The business model of ADEs has changed considerably n the time that I've been working in the sector.

PN1242

Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1243

I'm right, aren't I, that you've never run an ADE?‑‑‑No. I have never run an ADE, but I have had very intensive in-depth involvements with them.

PN1244

Yes, but that's the opinion of somebody running the DEA business who has got your background. That's your opinion. That is not an opinion of somebody who has run an ADE. It is not the opinion of somebody who is qualified with a master of business administration to understand different business models. It's your opinion?‑‑‑I have a very intimate knowledge of the operations of ADEs.

PN1245

Have you ever published any works on the business model of ADEs?‑‑‑Not from an academic standpoint.

PN1246

When you say in paragraph 24:

PN1247

I observed that ADEs were grateful for any commercial contracts they could get.

PN1248

Which ADEs are you referring to?‑‑‑I'm referring to, I suppose, the entire sector where decades ago it was quite competitive to get outsourced work and ADEs were appreciative, I suppose, to get any work at all. And so much depended on partnerships, relationships networked in terms of the sort of work they were able to be able to secure. And probably I suppose I am also commenting on the fact that they were perceived decades ago to be sort of part of a - almost the charitable sector. And that, you know, the corporate sometimes would give them some of the work that, I suppose, they themselves didn't want to do and it was that sort of - the lower end of the profitability margin.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1249

This is an impression that you've formed from your exposure to the sector, is it?‑‑‑It's - Mr Ward, I'm that old that I also was involved in parents, you know, establishing some of these organisations for their sons and daughters. So I suppose I got that knowledge and I have had that involvement and that journey in terms of seeing - I mean, there's some ADEs in Melbourne that I over four decades have had involvements with.

PN1250

You agree with me, don't you, that you've not been involved with 161 ADEs?‑‑‑I've had involvements with quite a few ADEs, including two that have provided witness statements, you know, on behalf of the employer side of the case.

PN1251

That is simply an impression based on your experience in the industry, which is not across the full ADE industry?‑‑‑I've had an array of involvements, again even with the Fair Work Commission process for a number of years and I've had involvements with the 2016 major trial, mini trials, other trials and also I've collaborated with a lot of ADEs over a very long time and even in training - in 2016 in training the assessors and the ADE staff in Melbourne and in Adelaide who then went out and trialled the 2016 modifications to the SWS SESA. So - - -

PN1252

In 1982, you told me, you experience in the industry was starting out. In 1982 you would have had very limited understanding of the commercial contractual arrangements across the majority of ADEs. That's correct, isn't it?‑‑‑That was the starting point of my learning and knowledge in terms of the operations of ADEs, but Mr Ward, what would happen to me at times would be ADE management or the CEO would have meetings with me to discuss what they did and how we would make sure that the placement of people with disabilities went smoothly and they would share with me the running and the operations of the ADEs. So certainly my learning as to ADEs commenced from there onwards.

PN1253

So your statement says that in 1982, which is four decades ago, you observed something. What I am putting to you is your ability to observe that across the sector in 1982 would be very, very limited?‑‑‑It was a starting point to my journey.

PN1254

All right. I will accept that, because we don't have all afternoon. You then go on to say:

PN1255

At that time, they were competing for lower-end, outsourced contracts.

PN1256

Who is 'they'?‑‑‑The entire ADE sector.

PN1257

So in 1982, you had knowledge of the contractual arrangements of the entire ADE sector, did you?‑‑‑No, only the ones that I interacted with.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1258

So why do you say - why did you answer my question saying, 'the entire ADE sector'?‑‑‑Because the people that were managing the ADEs in Melbourne, they themselves networked with others and were able to comment on what others were doing and some of their challenges and their frustrations in terms of the sort of contracts they were getting.

PN1259

So somebody told somebody who told somebody who might have told you. Yes?‑‑‑Could you repeat the question or the comment?

PN1260

So somebody told somebody else who told somebody else who might have told you?‑‑‑I had involvements with quite a number of Melbourne ADEs and I would listen intently to senior management in terms of some of their challenges. And they - - -

PN1261

How many ADEs in Melbourne?‑‑‑At the time, it would have been about half a dozen.

PN1262

Okay. So this statement about lower-end, outsourced contracts at that period of time is based on your knowledge of hearing what other people said - half a dozen ADEs in Victoria.

PN1263

MR HARDING: No. That's not his evidence.

PN1264

THE WITNESS: The people that I was collaborating with wood network with their colleagues and ADEs, so they could, I suppose, make comments and, you know, give evidence in terms of what the whole sector was struggling with, you know, in terms of being able to function.

PN1265

MR WARD: So this is something that you've heard from other people. That's what you're telling us?‑‑‑I certainly intently listen to people and what they have to offer and, you know, what it is that they are grappling with.

PN1266

Okay. When you say 'low profitability' in paragraph 24, what form of profitability are you talking about? Are you talking about earnings before interest and tax; in earnings before interest and tax depreciation (indistinct) profit after tax, what are you talking about?‑‑‑I suppose that ADEs were taking on contracts where they would share with me that there was hardly any margin or profit in them.

PN1267

And by 'profit', you mean that they would otherwise make a loss?‑‑‑In some cases, at that time, yes.

PN1268

And in terms of who is sharing this, I take it's that the half dozen at places at this time you're working in Victoria, is it?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1269

You then say in paragraph 24, 'As the years went on our?‑‑‑Well, as the decades went on - - -

PN1270

We're talking decades?‑‑‑Well, it was incremental, because I observed - the ADEs eventually had a variety of exposure to, I suppose, business mentoring. Different types of people then started to apply for jobs in ADE management. People were coming from the corporate sector with new idea in terms of enterprise and innovation and retooling, and - so a variety of, sort of, commercial practices then were applied to the ADEs, and also various government -you know, department funding bodies would assist the ADEs in terms of improving, you know, their marketing, their business acumen, strategising. So that sort of all, you know, started to sort of improve the operations of the ADE and also their commercial practices.

PN1271

They were trying to lose less money, were they?‑‑‑I'm sorry?

PN1272

They were tying to lose less money?‑‑‑They were trying to become more professional in everything they did.

PN1273

And when you talk about 'higher-end contracts', I don't understand what a higher-end contract is. Is that higher end goods, or is a higher-end contract one that's got a better margin on it? What do you mean by that?‑‑‑It's the latter, Mr Ward. It's where there's more margin.

PN1274

In what types of contracts did you study at that time? Or, again, was this just something that somebody told you?‑‑‑Not at all. When I would go into ADEs, you know, the senior management, the CEO or the operations manager would say to me, 'Look, terrific, Walter. We've got this terrific new contract and it's really worthwhile and it's a lot better than, you know, packaging and, you know, show bags and a range of other things that we've historically done; put nuts and bolts together. You know, so they would actually share their joy and their glee with me in terms of how happy they were that they had secured much more viable business.

PN1275

So again, that's something you have heard from somebody else. You've not examined those contracts yourself?‑‑‑No. I didn't. I would have to take people's words to the fact that they were pleased with their - - -

PN1276

So in paragraph 25 where you finish off, 'Based on my experience and observations', I take it by 'experience' you mean the experience you had in the ADEs that you've been involved in?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1277

And by observations, that might include what people may have said to you in conversation or relaying conversations to you they might have had with other people?‑‑‑I had a very close collaborative working relationship with the ADEs and at times I - - -

PN1278

Which ADEs? When say - - -?‑‑‑At times I was - - -

PN1279

- - - 'close relationship with the ADES', which ADEs are you talking about? You are not talking about all the 161, are you?‑‑‑No. No, the ones that I happened to be working with in Melbourne and they would take me into their - you know, their confidence. They would share information with me. Sometimes I would also be involved in some meetings if they were relevant and it was a very, very collaborative effort on our part to make sure that even the employees that I was placing there, you know, were progressing well and I've always shown an interest in terms of how business operates and I am very interested in terms of the whole topic of business operations.

PN1280

If I can take you to paragraph 26, you say in paragraph 26:

PN1281

Employment in ADEs operates in a similar way to the general labour market and in mainstream employment.

PN1282

Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1283

What do you mean by 'mainstream employment'?‑‑‑Well, mainstream employment, I suppose, a long time ago we used to call it 'open employment'. We now refer to it as mainstream employment, so ADEs are seen as supportive employment.

PN1284

So, can I just understand this; by mainstream employment, we are talking about what historically was open employment? Yes?‑‑‑Sorry, Mr Ward. You've gone quiet.

PN1285

That's unusual for me. Can you hear me now?‑‑‑Yes. That's better.

PN1286

Sorry, I apologise. In terms of mainstream employment, that's a proxy for open employment, is it?‑‑‑Yes. Again, terminology changes over time.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1287

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So Mr Grzentic, so I understand, when you talk about open employment are we talking about people with disability in employment that is not supported employment or are we just talking about any employment whatsoever outside of ADEs?‑‑‑This references people with disabilities working in open employment.

PN1288

And when you say 'the general labour market', are you using it in the same sense or is that a phrase that is referrable to non-disabled persons as well?‑‑‑The reference I was making there is very much pertaining to people - employees with a disability.

PN1289

Thank you.

PN1290

MR WARD: Isn't it the case though that in open employment, the person with a disability is going to represent a very, very small fraction of their workforce?‑‑‑In open employment? Okay. I suppose, looking at the bigger picture, people with a disability in Australia might represent about 20 per cent of the population. They are under represented in employment per se across the board. The vast majority of people with disability work in open employment or mainstream employment, and people working in ADEs is a very small subset.

PN1291

Do you accept this proposition that the majority of workers inside an ADE have a disability?‑‑‑Well, there are criteria in terms of being able to, you know, work in an ADE.

PN1292

So you would accept that the majority of workers are eligible for a disability support pension and they make up the majority of what we might call the blue collar workforce of that workforce. You accept that, don't you?--Are you referring to an ADE?

PN1293

Yes. I am?‑‑‑Okay.

PN1294

So is that a yes?‑‑‑Yes. That is because there was reference to blue collar workforces.

PN1295

Well, that's a yes. If I walk in - I don't know where you shop, sir. Do you shop at Woolworths or Coles? Where do you shop?‑‑‑ I tend to shop at Woolworths because it's right next door.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1296

Lovely. I'm pleased. If I walk into your Woolworths shop, I'm correct, aren't I, that the overwhelming majority of employees in that shop will not have a disability?‑‑‑Woolworths and Coles are major employers of people with a disability and we do a lot of SWS assessments at Woolworths and Coles and a long time ago those two companies had specialised staff that actually recruited people with a disability and they also had quotas to employ them and sometimes disability is obvious and, you know, can be seen, but sometimes it isn't obvious to the layperson. So there are a lot of people working at Coles and Woolworths that are collecting trolleys, stacking shelves, making the shelves look beautiful, down the back, you know, moving boxes et cetera. So both Coles and Woolies are major employers of people with disability. It's part of their social responsibilities and triple bottom line.

PN1297

I understand why Woolworths employ people with disabilities. My question was this, if I walked into your Woolworths, the overwhelming majority of employees in the Woolworths will not have a disability?‑‑‑The majority by definition won't have a disability, but one must need to factor in that 20 per cent of the Australian population has a disability and that many disabilities are unseen. So, unfortunately Australia does not do that well in the OECD with regard to the employment of people with disability a disability. So we are underrepresented in terms of employment levels. But certainly for those that are very aware of disability who work in the sector, it's much easier for us to spot who is likely to have a disability.

PN1298

So if an ADE - the majority of employees have a disability, and if I walk into Woolworths, the majority of employees do not have a disability, how is it you can say ADEs operate in a similar way to the general labour market?‑‑‑Well, they operate in a similar way to the general labour market because even this morning I was having a conversation with an ADE where they were sharing with me that they're struggling to recruit people to their ADE, you know. So in terms of the general labour market, particularly the tight labour market in Australia at the moment, it's quite competitive in terms of attracting and recruiting people, be you a retail, hospitality or in some cases an ADE who might be competing for people on a DSP or who have an NDIS plan or need to have an NDIS plan.

PN1299

Well, let's stay with the Woolworths example. Would you accept this proposition that Woolworths, like all private sector companies will organise work to optimise efficiency?‑‑‑I would say that all companies are always looking at how to be most effective and efficient. Yes.

PN1300

And would you agree with me that if I my motivation is profitability, I will automate wherever I can rather than use labour?

PN1301

MR HARDING: Your Honour, how can - - -

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1302

THE WITNESS: Well, some - - -

PN1303

MR HARDING: Excuse me. Just a minute. How can this witness answer that broadly expressed question applicable to all employment everywhere?

PN1304

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: With respect, the witness' statements are replete with statements of that nature and I think they can only be dealt with in cross-examination by other statements of that nature.

PN1305

THE WITNESS: Okay. There are certain types of job roles, duties, tasks that, you know, can be replaced by automation. But there are a variety of others that, in the end, people will have to perform. So, you know, if you go to Woolworths, Mr Ward, sometimes the store manager will show me the latest new pallet and the pallet that can go off the truck and immediately the hand jack can take it to the aisle, without a need to transfer it to a cage. You know, so that's an example of you know, not necessarily automation, but certainly more effective and efficient processes that save time and increase productivity.

PN1306

MR WARD: And so you accept that where possible, a company that's motivated by profit will replace labour with automation where it can?‑‑‑Certainly. And probably a good example with the Woolworths one, Mr Ward, is the self-checkouts. You know, they're a good example where, you know, they're cutting down on staffing in terms of the checkout and the point of sale.

PN1307

So if Woolworths had, as a purpose, that it was there to create employment opportunities rather than profit, it would keep people on rather than automate it?‑‑‑All business strive to maximise income and maximise profit and it's a continual process in terms of strategising as to how to achieve that.

PN1308

You would agree with me though, wouldn't you, that ADEs have at their core the purpose of creating employment opportunities for people with a disability. That is the very heart of their purpose?‑‑‑ADEs are a disability service provider that as a part of their mandate and remit, and their funding need to employ people with a disability.

PN1309

Do you accept that the very purpose - I think you suggested it might even be their legal purpose is to provide employment opportunities for people with a disability?‑‑‑That is part of their objectives and contractual requirements.

PN1310

Now, in paragraph 28, you talk about Greenacres. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1311

And that's our opinion based on the document that you've referenced there. Is that right?‑‑‑Those quotations are taken directly from the annual report.

PN1312

So where you say:

PN1313

The annual report discloses significant asset equity of about 23 million at an annual operating profit of just over 1.41 million -

PN1314

I take it then that that's just you restating what you read?‑‑‑That's exactly what was written in the annual report.

PN1315

Can I take you to paragraph 33? And I apologise, Mr Grzentic, I'm going to jump around a bit. I do apologise. You say in recent years the majority of ADEs - so I take it that's more than 84 of the - sorry, I haven't done my maths right. It's what, more than 81 of the 161, is that what you are referring to there?‑‑‑Yes. That's a majority.

PN1316

Yes. How do you know what ADEs have and haven't done, given that you haven't been involved with that many ADEs?‑‑‑Well, again, I have had a broad involvement with them and that's for a variety of, you know, collaborations; some of them even through the Fair Work Commission process and some of them with sector meetings, some of them with national disability services meetings and conferences and seminars and other conferences. So I certainly come into contact with ADE CEOs and senior management. And, again, you know, people present at various forums, seminars, conferences in terms of some of the tends that are going on in the ADE sector.

PN1317

But how can you be sure that view represents a majority of ADEs?‑‑‑Again, because it's the cross-section that people comment on the very strong themes when there's network meetings. So as an example - - -

PN1318

So you've gone to - - -?‑‑‑As an example - - -

PN1319

You've gone to conferences and things like that and heard stuff and that's your opinion based on that, is it?‑‑‑It's what I've heard from ADE senior management. So as an example of that in line number 3, number 33, 'and now tend to recruit supported employees who are more capable of meeting increased expectations as to employee capacity, and that's exactly the same conversation I had this morning with an ADE, you know, where they are looking for a much more capable workforce.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1320

So is that - is it your evidence that ADEs are removing from their workplace people with less capacity?‑‑‑It's - it's a historical issue where many years ago ADEs and day-placement were basically created for the sons and daughters of aging parents. So therefore they did take on people at the time who might not have been as productive and the reason for that was because they need to do something and also people wanted to have the sense of the pride of work. But over time and also with the advent of the National Disability Insurance Scheme, that creates other opportunities for people that are not necessarily vocational. Remember a few minutes ago I spoke that you had to have something to do Monday to Friday during the day. It was either day placement or working. Whereas with the NDIS now, Mr Ward, there's opportunities to do other non-vocational involvements around arts and leisure, socialising, skills development et cetera. So that gives the ADEs an opportunity even to transition people who maybe are not suited to work or are less capable of working.

PN1321

So if you go to the first statement in paragraph 33, you say this,

PN1322

ADEs do not operate by seeking business opportunities that are able to be performed by supported employees.

PN1323

Do you see that?‑‑‑Which line are we at, Mr Ward?

PN1324

The very first line:

PN1325

ADEs do not operate by seeking business opportunities that are able to be performed by supported employees.

PN1326

Do you see that?‑‑‑Okay.

PN1327

So it's your evidence, is it, that ADEs seek business opportunities that cannot be performed by supported employees, that's your evidence, is it?‑‑‑Let's have a look. Well, maybe grammatically, that's poorly put.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1328

So you do accept that ADEs seek business opportunities that are able to be performed by supported employees?‑‑‑I'd have to say that ADEs seek a broad range of opportunities, and they do factor in, I suppose, what their workforce will be capable of achieving. But again, this is the improvement in the development of ADE operations where, as we discussed previously, decades ago, they were far more mindful as to, I suppose, which contracts were more achievable, whereas, as time progressed again, and in recent decades, the ADEs have been quite entrepreneurial, aggressive, innovative, in terms of some of the business opportunities that they've targeted.

PN1329

Well, let's just see what you agree with. You agreed a while ago that one of the principal purposes of an ADE as to create employment opportunities for people with a disability, do you remember that?‑‑‑They are funded to have to have to provide employment opportunities, as part of Government funding.

PN1330

Okay. And in providing employment opportunities, I put this to you, that they will always be on the lookout for work that their people they employ, with a disability, can perform?‑‑‑In recent decades, they have come to the ‑ ‑ ‑

PN1331

No, Mr Grzentic.

PN1332

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Grzentic?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1333

Can you answer the question, please. I think that you can either agree with or not agree ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Okay. Can we ‑ ‑ ‑

PN1334

But can you answer that question, please?‑‑‑Okay. Can we repeat the question, please?

PN1335

MR WARD: I can. So ADEs will be on the lookout for work, contracted work, that the employees they have, with a disability, can perform?‑‑‑Correct.

PN1336

And you'd also agree with me, wouldn't you, that they then organize that work relevant to the capacity of the employees who are at the ADE?‑‑‑No, I disagree.

PN1337

Really?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1338

You disagree?‑‑‑I disagree.

PN1339

So the evidence we had today, earlier, from Minda, I'll give it by way of example, that evidence was that activities are broken into sub-activities, there is visual aids used to assist people who struggle with numeracy, various jigs were used to that people can understand what the number of things is they're meant to do to pack into a bag. You think that that is not trying to tailor the work to meet the capacity of the individual?‑‑‑That is an array of reasonable adjustments and accommodations that have been requested since we've had the Disability Services Act the Disability Discrimination Act.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1340

Where would you see any commercial enterprise, that has profit as its primary purpose, organize labour like that?‑‑‑Look, I'd have to point to my affidavit, my most recent affidavit, and in 21 July, from 10(a) to (p), there are lots of examples of very similar undertakings in small business.

PN1341

And are, of those businesses, businesses where the majority of employees have a disability?‑‑‑They are an example where it's an employee with a disability undertaking that job role and those duties.

PN1342

Okay. So they're in open employment, okay?‑‑‑And that - they're in open employment and that are not a large employer, like Woolworths, so I deliberately gave you examples of small employers that have no infrastructure, who are still able to do all that. If I was to describe was ADEs do, they secure the contract, they do have a think as to how they're going to fulfil the contract, and then their able-bodied staff look at a task analysis and how they will perform and fulfil the contract, and then they do undertake, eventually, what you described and evidenced from Minda, in terms of the sort of role modelling, showcasing, jigs and everything else that's required that also is used in mainstream employment.

PN1343

So I just want to make sure that we're not at cross-purposes. You're not suggesting that, in open employment, in a business that is driven by the profit motive, you're not suggesting that that business will organize itself to employ, predominantly, people with a disability, and to operate the way an ADE does. You're not saying that, are you?‑‑‑There are a variety of businesses that are geared to be profitable and financially viable, that employ a considerable number of people with a disability, and some of them have also decided to even use ADE funding to set themselves up as social enterprises. And their remit and mandate is to employ a large number of people with a disability.

PN1344

So was your answer to my question 'Yes' or 'No'?‑‑‑Can you repeat the question, Mr Ward?

PN1345

So you're not saying that there are businesses in the private sector, who are motivated by profit, who predominantly employ people with a disability, and structure work so those people are capable of doing it, rather than optimizing the way work's performed to drive profit. You're not saying that, are you?‑‑‑I am saying there are business in the private sector that are able to have dual objectives, which is both profitability and employing a large number of people with a disability and/or people from socially disadvantaged groups that they target, so they're able to ‑ ‑ ‑

PN1346

So was the answer to my question, 'Yes' or 'No'?‑‑‑Well, Mr Ward, you're ‑ ‑ ‑

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1347

You asked me to repeat the question so you could give a 'Yes' or 'No' answer?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1348

And then you didn't answer the question. Was it 'Yes' or 'No'?‑‑‑All right. Well, Mr Ward, can you repeat the question so it doesn't have a double negative in it?

PN1349

An ADE, overwhelmingly, employs people with a disability as its workforce. I'm putting to you that it will determine how those people will work, it will structure how the work is done, to be accommodated within their capacity. That will normally involve breaking work down into very small activities, it might be counting some bolts, it might be putting some bolts in a bag, and that is what the person will do all day. Is it your evidence that that is what happens in open employment?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN1350

So it's your evidence that there are businesses in open employment, driven by the profit motive, that employ, predominantly, disabled people that disaggregate work in that highly inefficient ways?‑‑‑Yes, they do.

PN1351

Which one ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑And they still make a profit.

PN1352

Which ones are they?‑‑‑Well, Mr Ward, you just have to read 10(a) to 10(p).

PN1353

Well, let's go to that. Well, let's go to 10(a). What's that business name?‑‑‑It's a stationary business.

PN1354

Yes, what's its name?‑‑‑I'm not going to divulge that.

PN1355

Why not?‑‑‑It's confidential.

PN1356

Well, how do I know you didn't make it up?‑‑‑Well, I didn't. I was there.

PN1357

So an unnamed business, where is this business?‑‑‑It's in Melbourne.

PN1358

Okay. How many people does it employ?‑‑‑When I was there, it looked like about half a dozen.

PN1359

Half a dozen. Fulltime? Part-time? Casual?‑‑‑Well, most seemed to be fulltime.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1360

Okay. And you say here:

PN1361

An employee's duties were to do something.

PN1362

Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1363

So one out of the half dozen people, this is your example, is it?‑‑‑Well, it's an example of the fact that someone was only capable of putting stock onto hooks, and that's all they did, and this was a profitable business.

PN1364

And yes - I don't want this to sound facetious, so I apologise. Do you agree with me that one out of six employees is not the majority of employees?‑‑‑It certainly though, is significant in terms of the rate of people with disabilities in Australia.

PN1365

Do you agree with me though, that one out of six is not the majority of employees?‑‑‑Well, not in that instance, no.

PN1366

No. No. What's the next business? You're not going to tell me who that is either?‑‑‑That is a large wholesaler that's got an arm which supplies pizza boxes, which is a very small business that's sort of attached to a large wholesaler.

PN1367

Okay. But again, you're not going to tell me the name of that?‑‑‑It's got a very unusual name, so I don't think I could even recollect it. But the woman in question, Mr Ward, all she does, all day long, is create pizza boxes from flat packs.

PN1368

So this is evidence of some company that you can't even remember the name of, is it?‑‑‑The name of it's not that relevant, it's what they're doing, which is very similar to ADE work.

PN1369

Yes. I'll ask the question again. This is evidence of a company that you can't even remember the name of?‑‑‑Irrespective of the names of all these companies, I'm not going to share them with you.

PN1370

Even if you knew, which you don't, on this occasion?‑‑‑I would have to go back to my files, because it's one of those ones that's got an acronym, and you know, it's got a few letters to it.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1371

And ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑But don't - Mr Ward, these are real examples of what I really happening out there in small business, who employs people with a disability.

PN1372

Yes. So none of these examples you've given yet support your answer to me, you accept that? Because none of these examples involve the majority of employees having a disability?‑‑‑These are examples of small business employing people with a disability. I wanted to deliberately give you examples where I can see that part of the ADE argument is that it's okay for large employers who have infrastructure to employee people with disability, but it's also the case that small employers without infrastructure still employ people with a disability. Looking at my statements, I haven't given you, probably, enough examples ‑ ‑ ‑

PN1373

I haven't asked you a question, Mr - just wait till I ask a question. Just give me a moment, if you can? Can I take you to paragraph 34 of your first statement?‑‑‑Yes, okay.

PN1374

And I'm not being facetious, is this a real example or a made-up example?‑‑‑That's a real example.

PN1375

Okay. At a business that you will not share the name of with me?‑‑‑There's no need to share the name.

PN1376

I didn't ask that question, sir. I asked whether or not you would tell me the name, it's a 'Yes' or 'No' answer?‑‑‑What's the importance of naming all the business?

PN1377

I'm trying to ‑ ‑ ‑

PN1378

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Can you just answer the question, please?

PN1379

MR WARD: Will you tell me ‑ ‑ ‑Mr Ward, I've shared with you that I'm not going to name businesses or ADEs.

PN1380

Okay. So this is an ‑ ‑ ‑

PN1381

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Ward, do you want to press him to answer any questions about the name of these businesses?

PN1382

MR WARD: Yes, I do, your Honour.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1383

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN1384

Well, Mr Harding, do you want to be heard on this? This evidence is being volunteered without any rider of confidentiality, and no application's been made in those respect. Why shouldn't the witness answer the question?

PN1385

And if he doesn't, or refuses, why should we even receive this evidence?

PN1386

MR HARDING: Well, I can't say that you can't direct this witness to answer that question, and if he doesn't answer the question, he makes that choice. But I would say something about whether or not you receive the evidence, and in my submission, you ought receive the evidence, because it's evidence of work.

PN1387

Now, doubles, my learned friend might say something to the effect of credit, and if he does, that's a matter for you in terms of weight, but that's a different question. But I cannot say, and I don't say, that there's any confidentiality attached to the names.

PN1388

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN1389

In relation to paragraph 34, what is the name of the ADE about which that paragraph is concerned?‑‑‑Waverley Industries.

PN1390

Thank you.

PN1391

MR WARD: Where do they operated?‑‑‑In Waverley in Melbourne.

PN1392

Okay. And how many people do they employ?‑‑‑I'd only be estimating.

PN1393

You don't know?‑‑‑Look, I'll have a stab and say, probably about 300.

PN1394

Okay. Is that a guess?‑‑‑It is a guess.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1395

Okay. And what work did you do with them?‑‑‑I did a project with them where they were investigating when the decision was handed down in terms of the discriminatory nature of the BSWAT, they called me in as part of a project to trial different wage assessment tools to see which were going to be more workable and viable for them. So I trialled the Supported Wages System, and then they got other people in to trial Greenacres, and other people to trial Skills Master, et cetera, and then the management team made up their mind in terms of which ones they were going to use.

PN1396

So you were doing a consulting job for them on that, were you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1397

And I take it you're telling us that you observed the shaving kit activity as part of that job, did you?‑‑‑Well, the trial, from memory, I think I had to use the SWS assessment tool, from memory, might have been across about 10 or 12 employees, performing different types of jobs, some at the more simple range, some at the more complex range, and we wanted to see how the SWS assessment tool would work across different types of job roles with different complexity, et cetera, and that was one of them.

PN1398

So you observed this job?‑‑‑Yes, I was there, and I was sitting at the end of the table with the team leader/supervisor.

PN1399

And you say, in your evidence, that there were 10 supported employees working?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1400

And I take it that each of those had a disability, subject to the Disability Support Pension, that's what you mean by 'supported employee'?‑‑‑Well, they were supported employees working there that were eligible to be there.

PN1401

And when you say there's a 'production line at a long table', was that the 10 people sitting around a table?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1402

Okay. And you say here:

PN1403

The shaving kit has a number of components that need to be assembled. At one end of the employees, the first couple of supported employees complied a flat pack into a box.

PN1404

I take it that's all they did, all day?‑‑‑At times, the team leader/supervisor would rotate the supported employees to make it a bit more interesting for them, you know, so at times, they would look at who was more capable with regards to certain tasks, so there'd be a deal of rotation. And also, at times, we would leave certain people on certain tasks when we were assessing them, and that way, we'd also isolate them performing a particular task.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1405

So:

PN1406

The first task is to compile the flat pack into a box.

PN1407

Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1408

You then say:

PN1409

The second task was passed on to the next workstation.

PN1410

Does that mean the box was passed to the person next to them?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1411

Yes?‑‑‑Because if you can imagine a rectangular table, and you've got people on either side of it, so there might be two people at the end of the table, Mr Ward, that are constructing the boxes, and then those boxes start to move up the table and then, you know, you might have a shaver, brush, there's also the need to put a sticky label on, accurately, and by the time you get to the end of the table, you know, the shaving kit, there was a particular pro forma there that people have to match and be accurate about in terms of the looks of the shaving kit.

PN1412

All right. So the second part of that activity, you tell us, is this:

PN1413

The box is then passed on to the next workstation.

PN1414

Which you agree, is the box being passed to the next person?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1415

Where another supported employee correctly places the first item into the kit.

PN1416

?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1417

So that is, an employee puts something into the box, do they?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1418

Do you remember the first item, or do you not remember?‑‑‑Look, it was a long time ago. I remember there was a - one of the brushes that you put shaving foam on, that was one of them.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1419

Yes. So if that was the first item, that employee would have, what a box of those in front of them, and they'd take one out and they'd put it in the box, would they?‑‑‑Yes. Yes. Or adjoining them, depending on how much space it took up on the table.

PN1420

Sorry, I don't understand what that means?‑‑‑It might be the case that certain items, if they took up too much space on the large, rectangular work table, it would be next to their chair in a box.

PN1421

Okay. So the box was in front of the ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑But there was - yes. There were smaller items that could sit in front, on the table itself, so it just depended on available room, basically.

PN1422

So the box is in front of the supported employee, the supported employee picks up a shaving brush and puts it in the box, and then passes the box to the next person, correct?‑‑‑Correct. Yes.

PN1423

And that employee, and I might not have the order right, that employee has a box of safety razors in front of them, they pick a safety razor out of that box, and they put it into the box, and then that's passed to the next person?‑‑‑Correct.

PN1424

Okay. And that was done until, you said, it reflected a pro forma, what did you mean by that?‑‑‑Well, there'd be a sample, and everyone would be shown the sample as to what, you know, needed to be achieved and where - similar to example with the Minda testimony ‑ ‑ ‑

PN1425

There was a visual aid?‑‑‑It's a visual aid, and also a reference point for people.

PN1426

Yes?‑‑‑In terms of what we're trying to achieve in the overall team effort.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1427

Okay. And I think your evidence is, when you observed that, that, at some time, people moved around. So if I might have been doing the brush, I might move and now do the razor, is that what you meant?‑‑‑At times, the team leader would look at how effective and accurate people were, and also we'd look at whether, you know, people were able to complete their particular process in a timely fashion. Certain processes required what we call differentiation skills, such as, if you had to put a label accurately, you know, on to the box, and whether people have better dexterity, gross and fine motor skills. And also, you'd look down the table and you'd see, I suppose, who was quicker at what they were doing, who was slower, you know, who had to wait for who, and then the team leader/supervisor would have a look at whether there could be any changes to the positioning of the supported employees that would improve, you know, the flow of work.

PN1428

Okay. And is it your evidence that in observing that example, some employees had greater capacity than others, and that's how work was allocated to them?‑‑‑Some employees - employees had different skill sets in terms of their judgment, their task planning, their execution, their differentiation skills, their fine motor skills, and that all had to be factored in, in terms of what they could contribute to the compilation of the kit.

PN1429

Okay. You say later on, when you've described the example, you say at the end of that paragraph:

PN1430

The ADE team supervisor would give the relevant employee feedback, retrain them as to what is required, or they may move the employee to another process.

PN1431

Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1432

And I take it, you're telling us you observed that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1433

And is that because the employee didn't have the capacity to do that process, so they found them a process they could to?‑‑‑At times, the employees were making errors in terms of their components, or their part of the Henry T-Ford conveyor, and the supervisor would attempt to give them feedback, or retrain them. Yes, Mr Ward, at times, people had to be moved because there was a sense that they didn't seem to have that particular skill set.

PN1434

And that might be a cognition issue, it might be a dexterity issue, and they were moved on to different work?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1435

Yes?‑‑‑Well, again, there was the playing to people's strengths and their skill sets, as opposed to thinking, 'How much do I need to invest of my time to train them/retrain them, for them to improve this particular performance'.

PN1436

So that employer was particularly focussed on the capacity of the individual and optimising that capacity?‑‑‑Yes. And also, wanting the smooth running of the process.

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1437

And I imagine that the smooth running of the process, from time to time, would have been disrupted by behavioural issues?‑‑‑At times, there were people that might have lost focus or concentration, and some components of compiling the kit took longer, and some components were quicker, so then you had to look at which employees, I suppose, had which skill sets in terms of contributing to the overall goal.

PN1438

So some employees might have been more capable of picking up a shaving brush and put it in the box, and some might be less capable?‑‑‑Yes.

PN1439

Just a moment, sorry.

PN1440

Thank you, sir. Thank you.

PN1441

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination, Mr Harding?

PN1442

MR HARDING: No re-examination.

PN1443

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN1444

You're excuse, Mr Grzentic. You may leave.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW�� [2.45 PM]

PN1445

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.

PN1446

So that's all the witness evidence, except for ‑ ‑ ‑

PN1447

MR WARD: Ms Dulac.

PN1448

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: ‑ ‑ ‑ Ms Dulac tomorrow morning, is that correct?

PN1449

MR WARD: That's correct.

PN1450

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: And then the parties, perhaps after a short adjournment, will be in a position to do their submissions?

***�� WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC�� XXN MR WARD

PN1451

MR HARDING: Yes.

PN1452

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is there an agreed order in which submissions will be given?

PN1453

MR WARD: No, we haven't had that conversation yes.

PN1454

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Well, perhaps that can be ‑ ‑ ‑

PN1455

MR WARD: We could toss a coin, your Honour.

PN1456

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry?

PN1457

MR WARD: We could toss a coin. I think we'll have a conversation.

PN1458

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Well, I'll let the parties sort that out.

PN1459

Ms Gruschka, can I ask you something?

PN1460

MS GRUSCHKA: Yes.

PN1461

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: In the decision of the full Federal Court last year, in relation to the judicial review proceedings brought by the AED Legal Centre.

PN1462

MS GRUSCHKA: Yes.

PN1463

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Paragraph 105 records that the Commonwealth made submissions as to the proper construction of section 153 of the Fair Work Act.

PN1464

MS GRUSCHKA: That's correct, your Honour.

PN1465

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Are we to be favoured with any submissions along those lines?

PN1466

MS GRUSCHKA: I have made some inquiries about that with my client today, your Honour, and we can take some instructions about the extent of those submissions for tomorrow, but I can be prepared to make submissions on that, if that would assist?

PN1467

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Well, I think we'd be assisted by any submissions, quite frankly, about that issue.

PN1468

MS GRUSCHKA: Thank you.

PN1469

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: And even it's simply a case of providing the submissions that were given to the Federal Court, that may be sufficient.

PN1470

MS GRUSCHKA: Thank you, your Honour.

PN1471

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, all right.

PN1472

Well, we'll now adjourn until 10 am tomorrow morning.

ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 17 AUGUST 2022 �� [2.46 PM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

KRISTIAN RENE DAUNCEY, AFFIRMED..................................................... PN710

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WARD.................................................... PN710

EXHIBIT #R WITNESS STATEMENT OF KRISTIAN DAUNCEY............. PN719

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HARDING.................................................. PN720

EXHIBIT #S KNOXBROOKE INCORPORATED CONTROLLED ENTITY FINANCIAL STATEMENTS FOR THE YEAR ENDED 30/06/2021..................................... PN778

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD................................................................. PN834

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................. PN841

DONALD BRUCE GREER, AFFIRMED.......................................................... PN860

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR KEMPPI................................................. PN860

EXHIBIT #T WITNESS STATEMENT OF DONALD GREER DATED 20/05/2022 PN871

EXHIBIT #U FURTHER WITNESS STATEMENT OF DONALD GREER DATED 22/07/2022................................................................................................................................. PN872

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD......................................................... PN873

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................. PN886

DONALD BRUCE GREER, RECALLED.......................................................... PN886

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD, CONTINUING............................. PN886

EXHIBIT #V DOCUMENTS ENTITLED 'IMAGE 1 VISUAL CUE' AND 'IMAGE 2 CUSTOM JIG'.......................................................................................................................... PN953

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KEMPPI............................................................ PN1024

THE WITNESS WITHDREW........................................................................... PN1041

ROBYN MICHELLE JODIE SMITH, AFFIRMED....................................... PN1052

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR KEMPPI............................................... PN1052

EXHIBIT #W WITNESS STATEMENT OF ROBYN SMITH DATED 20/05/2022 PN1066

EXHIBIT #X FURTHER WITNESS STATEMENT OF ROBYN SMITH DATED 22/07/2022............................................................................................................................... PN1067

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD....................................................... PN1069

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KEMPPI............................................................ PN1140

THE WITNESS WITHDREW........................................................................... PN1145

WALTER MARCEL GRZENTIC, AFFIRMED............................................. PN1156

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR HARDING........................................... PN1156

EXHIBIT #Y WITNESS STATEMENT OF WALTER GRZENTIC DATED 20/05/2022............................................................................................................................... PN1166

EXHIBIT #Z FURTHER STATEMENT OF WALTER GRZENTIC DATED 21/07/2022............................................................................................................................... PN1167

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD....................................................... PN1171

THE WITNESS WITHDREW........................................................................... PN1444