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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Fair Work Act 2009 1054936
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER
DEPUTY PRESIDENT CLANCY
COMMISSIONER SPENCER
AM2016/36
s.156 - 4 yearly review of modern awards
Four yearly review of modern awards
(AM2016/36)
Blood and Bone Marrow Donor Leave
Sydney
10.05 AM, MONDAY, 17 JULY 2017
Continued from 03/07/2017
PN70
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Before we begin, can I indicate that Clancy DP is also a member of this Full Bench. However, he has been subject to a sudden illness, so he won't be able to attend the hearing today and probably not tomorrow either, but he will read the transcript when he has recovered. I don't think he needs any blood or anything.
PN71
I will take the appearances. Mr Moretta and Mr Ryan, you appear for the SDA?
PN72
MR M MORETTA: That's correct.
PN73
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Bhatt and Ms Ferguson, you appear for the Australian Industry Group and the Hair and Beauty Association?
PN74
MS R BHATT: Yes, Vice President.
PN75
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Roucek, you appear for ABI and New South Wales Business Chamber?
PN76
MR M ROUCEK: Yes, I do. I am not entirely sure whether I need to seek leave to appear again or if that's a continuing process.
PN77
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Let's assume that you do and I will come back to that.
PN78
MR ROUCEK: Thank you.
PN79
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Wellard, you appear for the Pharmacy Guild?
PN80
MS S WELLARD: Yes, if it pleases your Honour. Also I am not sure if permission to appear was granted earlier on or not, so I seek permission today.
PN81
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, all right, we will come back to that.
PN82
In Melbourne, Ms Imbriano, you appear for the Master Grocers? Can you hear us in Melbourne?
PN83
MS B IMBRIANO: I can. Can you hear me?
PN84
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Imbriano, you appear for the Master Grocers?
PN85
MS IMBRIANO: Yes, your Honour.
PN86
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, thank you. Mr Millman, in Brisbane, you appear for the National Retailers Association?
PN87
MR A MILLMAN: As it pleases your Honour.
PN88
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. To the extent that it's necessary, does anyone oppose ABI, the New South Wales Business Chamber and the Pharmacy Guild being represented by lawyers in the proceedings? No? All right, that permission is granted.
PN89
We have a witness program which looks like it will allow the witnesses to be dealt with today. I notice the first three witness are spaced an hour apart. Is it likely that cross-examination is going to last that long?
PN90
MS BHATT: No, certainly not.
PN91
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Mr Moretta, is there any way to allow at least Stacey Hunter and Glenn Smith to be moved up the order?
PN92
MR MORETTA: I tried getting in touch with them this morning and finally they got back to me and the earliest they could get to the Commission was at 11.30.
PN93
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: 11.30?
PN94
MR MORETTA: 11.30 this morning, yes.
PN95
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So Stacey Hunter won't be here until 11.30?
PN96
MR MORETTA: No, Stacey Hunter will be at 11 - yes, 11 o'clock on the phone. So Stacey Hunter will be 11 o'clock on the phone, after Emanuela Caruso.
PN97
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.
PN98
COMMISSIONER SPENCER: Can we contact them any earlier? Is there any ability to contact them earlier? Are they on standby or - - -
PN99
MR MORETTA: I can try. Stacey should be between 11 and 11.30 because that's her work break, her rest break.
PN100
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Mr Moretta, do you want to say anything by way of an opening submission or do you simply want to move to the first witness?
PN101
MR MORETTA: Let's move to the first witness, your Honour, if it pleases the Commission.
PN102
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. The first witness, if I pronounce this correctly, is Emanuela Caruso?
PN103
MR MORETTA: That's correct, your Honour.
PN104
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: She is appearing by telephone, is she?
PN105
MR MORETTA: By telephone, that's correct, your Honour.
PN106
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, we will arrange to dial her up.
PN107
MR MORETTA: Thank you.
PN108
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Will she have a copy of her witness statement with her?
PN109
MR MORETTA: Yes.
PN110
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.
PN111
THE ASSOCIATE: Hello, Ms Caruso.
PN112
MS CARUSO: Hello, how are you?
PN113
THE ASSOCIATE: I'm good, thanks. Ms Caruso, it's Ingrid calling from the Fair Work Commission. I am dialling you into the hearing this morning to give your evidence.
PN114
MS CARUSO: Sure.
PN115
THE ASSOCIATE: I will just let you know, because you are giving evidence over the phone, I am going to administer an affirmation for you to take.
PN116
MS CARUSO: Sure.
PN117
THE ASSOCIATE: Would you mind stating, firstly, your full name and address?
MS CARUSO: It's Emanuela Maree Caruso, (address supplied).
<EMANUELA MAREE CARUSO, AFFIRMED [10.12 AM]
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER [10.12 AM]
PN119
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Caruso, it's Vice President Hatcher from the Fair Work Commission here. Do you have a copy of your witness statement with you?‑‑‑I do.
PN120
Can I confirm that's - well, it's actually an affidavit which you made on 20 April 2017; is that correct?‑‑‑Correct.
PN121
Do you confirm that the contents of that affidavit are true and correct?‑‑‑I do.
The affidavit of Emanuela Maree Caruso made on 20 April 2017 will be marked exhibit 1 in the proceedings.
EXHIBIT #1 AFFIDAVIT OF EMANUELA MAREE CARUSO AFFIRMED ON 20/04/2017
PN123
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Moretta, do you have any additional matters you wish to raise with the witness beyond what's in the affidavit?
*** EMANUELA MAREE CARUSO XN VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER
PN124
MR MORETTA: No, not at this moment. After cross-examination, probably.
PN125
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Ms Caruso, some of the other parties here will now ask you some questions. First of all, Ms Bhatt from the Australian Industry Group will ask you some questions and then there will be some others?‑‑‑Sorry, who was that? Sorry, I didn't get the name. Who was it?
PN126
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Bhatt?‑‑‑Bhatt, sure.
All right, Ms Bhatt, go ahead.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT [10.13 AM]
PN128
MS BHATT: Ms Caruso, as the Vice President has just explained to you, my name is Ms Bhatt. I appear in these proceedings on behalf of the Australian Industry Group, which is an organisation that opposes the SDA's - - -?‑‑‑I'm sorry, I've missed that. You're from where, sorry?
PN129
The Australian Industry Group?‑‑‑Sure.
PN130
Which is an organisation that opposes the SDA's claim and I have just a few questions for you regarding your statement?‑‑‑Sure, not a problem.
PN131
At paragraph 5 of your statement, you say that you are engaged by Myer as a sales assistant. Can you tell the Commission what that involves?‑‑‑Okay, well, I'm a retail assistant, which entails serving customers, doing stock work, basically customer service.
PN132
In your role, it sounds like you would be spending extended periods of time on your feet; is that correct?‑‑‑Correct.
PN133
How long have you been employed by Myer, Ms Caruso?‑‑‑Approximately 17/18 years.
PN134
Where did you work prior to that?‑‑‑I was a public servant with the Department of Social Security, which then became Centrelink.
PN135
How long were you working there?‑‑‑For 25 years.
*** EMANUELA MAREE CARUSO XXN MS BHATT
PN136
When you worked there, did you have an entitlement to paid blood donor leave?‑‑‑Absolutely. It was actually encouraged.
PN137
You say at paragraph 16 of your statement that you've been donating blood since the age of 19. When you started donating - - -?‑‑‑Approximately 19, yes.
PN138
I'm sorry, I missed that, Ms Caruso?‑‑‑Sorry, yes, since the age of 19.
PN139
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I thinks she said approximately 19.
PN140
THE WITNESS: Yes.
PN141
MS BHATT: Thank you. When you first started donating blood, were you employed?‑‑‑Absolutely, yes.
PN142
By who were you employed?‑‑‑As previously stated, it would've been the Department of Social Security at the time.
PN143
Ms Caruso, can I take you to paragraph 22 of your statement, which is the last paragraph?‑‑‑Sure.
PN144
In that statement, you say that in your experience, with sufficient notice and consultation, paid leave to donate blood during work has been easily accommodated by your employer. Is it your understanding that your employer accommodates your leave by rostering an additional employee to cover your absence?‑‑‑No, there is never an additional employee rostered to cover my absence.
PN145
Am I correct in understanding that you work at the Myer store which is located on Bourke Street in Melbourne? That's correct, isn't it?‑‑‑Correct.
PN146
Would you agree with me that that is a very large store?‑‑‑Yes.
PN147
Is it your understanding that the Bourke Street store rosters many employees at a time?‑‑‑Yes.
*** EMANUELA MAREE CARUSO XXN MS BHATT
PN148
I have no further questions for this witness. Thank you, Ms Caruso?‑‑‑Not a problem, thank you.
PN149
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Who else would like to cross-examine this witness?
PN150
MS IMBRIANO: Your Honour, Ms Imbriano from - - -
PN151
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Just hold on. I think Ms Wellard in Sydney will go next, I think.
PN152
THE WITNESS: Sorry, who was that?
PN153
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Just hold on, Ms Caruso?‑‑‑Not a problem.
PN154
Then we will get to you, Ms Imbriano.
PN155
MS IMBRIANO: That's okay, your Honour.
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Caruso, Ms Wellard from the Pharmacy Guild will cross-examine you now?‑‑‑Sure.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WELLARD [10.17 AM]
PN157
MS WELLARD: Ms Caruso, can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes, I can.
PN158
Ms Caruso, have you ever worked in a pharmacy?‑‑‑No, I haven't.
PN159
Ms Caruso, you were asked some questions about staff at the Myer store in which you work. How many employees do you know roughly are at that store?‑‑‑I honestly couldn't answer that truthfully, I have no idea, a large number of staff. There's lots of casual staff, permanent staff and part-time staff members.
*** EMANUELA MAREE CARUSO XXN MS WELLARD
PN160
When you are absent from the store to donate blood and you say your work is covered but an additional person is not rostered, how is your work covered, how is that arranged?‑‑‑Well, I obviously only schedule my time off when I know there are enough people on to cover me and, you know, taking in mind, you know, I'm never off the floor for more than - look, I'd say the entitlement is a lot less than two hours and I also incorporate my break times into that.
PN161
You incorporate your break, was it? Is that what you said?‑‑‑Always, always, yes. Not that it's actually a requirement, but I choose to do it that way. Less impact for the staff that's left on the floor.
PN162
When you say that you know that there are other staff around you who can cover you, is that in your particular section or across the store?‑‑‑Obviously within my section.
PN163
How many people usually work in your section when you're on?‑‑‑It varies greatly depending on the need. I usually try to go earlier when I know it's a quieter period. I would never go during the major break, like lunch time, which is the high traffic area, I would always work it so it's during the quiet periods.
PN164
Would there be five or six people in the team with you on the floor or is it closer to - - -?‑‑‑It can vary. It varies, it varies, each day is different.
PN165
Can you give me the minimum number and the maximum number?‑‑‑Okay, the minimum would probably be approximately - minimum, minimum four, maximum seven.
PN166
If you were to take leave to donate blood, it would be someone from your own section that would cover, or would they come in from other areas?‑‑‑We work as a team, we work as a team. No, it would definitely be my team. That's why I always make sure I try to work it so that it is within my team, knowing how many people we have.
PN167
Thank you, I have no further questions?‑‑‑Thank you.
PN168
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Roucek, did you want to ask any questions?
PN169
MR ROUCEK: No, Vice President.
PN170
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Ms Imbriano, do you want to go next?
PN171
MS IMBRIANO: Okay, thank you, your Honour.
*** EMANUELA MAREE CARUSO XXN MS WELLARD
PN172
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Caruso, this is Ms Imbriano from the Master Grocers Association?‑‑‑The Master which, sorry?
Master Grocers Association?‑‑‑Okay, thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS IMBRIANO [10.20 AM]
PN174
MS IMBRIANO: Hi, Ms Caruso?‑‑‑Hello.
PN175
I would like to draw your attention to your witness statement, paragraph 7, I believe, where you have identified your four-week cycle?‑‑‑Mm-hm.
PN176
I can see weeks 1, 2 and 3, I believe, you have Tuesdays off and then Mondays and Tuesdays off every week; is that correct?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct, but could I just go further to add that since signing that affidavit, my roster has again changed.
PN177
Okay?‑‑‑So the hours are basically the same, but the hours are slightly different.
PN178
Can you say that you still currently have Mondays and Tuesdays off or one day during the week?‑‑‑I have every Tuesday for sure. Sorry, I have every Tuesday off.
PN179
Yes?‑‑‑However, I have three Mondays and - three Mondays off, I think it is, now.
PN180
You have time off during your working week, essentially?‑‑‑Of course.
PN181
To donate blood, if you wished to do so, in your social time?‑‑‑It doesn't really work that easily. Every Tuesday, I have a commitment where I look after my grandchildren, if you have a look at my affidavit, paragraph 13, where I state that, and then I have an 83 year old mother, if you also have a look at that, where I schedule all her - she's not well, she's a very sick lady at the moment.
PN182
Yes?‑‑‑I am her primary carer and I schedule all her medical appointments and all other additional things that I do need to do for her on that Monday.
*** EMANUELA MAREE CARUSO XXN MS IMBRIANO
PN183
Okay, I understand, Ms Caruso. However, you do say, at paragraph 14, that you make appointments to donate blood at the blood donor centre days or even weeks in advance?‑‑‑Correct.
PN184
I put to you that your nearest blood clinic to your house in (suburb supplied) is approximately 8 kilometres away, so from your witness statement where you say that you make appointments to donate blood in advance, you are able to organise in advance on one of your scheduled days off for you to attend the clinic for the purpose of donating blood. Is that correct?
PN185
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Imbriano, I think - - -
PN186
THE WITNESS: No, it's not. No, I'm sorry, that's - - -
PN187
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Caruso, can you just stop a second?‑‑‑Yes, sorry, sure.
PN188
I think there's a couple of questions in there. The first proposition is, is there a blood donor clinic near where you live?‑‑‑I honestly do not even know because there's no way I - well, I believe there is - I rephrase that - I believe there is, but I would have no way of getting there.
PN189
MS IMBRIANO: Okay?‑‑‑That would not suit me whatsoever.
PN190
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, thank you. Ms Imbriano, do you want to follow that up?
PN191
MS IMBRIANO: Thank you, your Honour.
PN192
Ms Caruso, from my research, there is a blood clinic approximately 8 kilometres from your home?‑‑‑Okay, yes.
PN193
I will ask the question, if, at paragraph 14 of your witness statement you say that you organise to donate blood days or weeks in advance, you don't say that you could be able to attend an appointment to donate blood with your schedule if you organised - - -?‑‑‑Sorry, yes, if I organised what, sorry?
*** EMANUELA MAREE CARUSO XXN MS IMBRIANO
PN194
If you organise it weeks in advance?‑‑‑Yes, but it doesn't always work that easily. You need to bear in mind also that sometimes things will come up. Some things come up and I need to reschedule. It's just not that easy to book that far in advance to get to another centre because I have no way of getting there. Then it would be a matter of organising somebody to take me, as well as working out whether it's going to suit and whether it's going to fit in with Mum's appointments.
PN195
That's okay, Ms Caruso?‑‑‑Whereas when it's close to the city, it's just a phone call away, you know, and I have low iron, I'm iron-deficient at times, which means that I need to reschedule, so sometimes it doesn't work and that would then inconvenience not only myself and the centre to have to reschedule, but I'd have to organise other people's lives getting me there and other people's time.
PN196
Your Honour, I have no further questions.
PN197
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
PN198
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that all of the cross-examination?
PN199
Ms Caruso, can I just ask you a couple of questions?‑‑‑Yes, sure.
PN200
The blood donor clinic where you do donate blood, that is in the central business district in Melbourne, is it?‑‑‑Correct.
PN201
Can you identify where it is?‑‑‑Which is not even - it's not even 10 minutes' walk away from work.
PN202
Do you know what opening hours it has?‑‑‑No, not off-hand, I wouldn't be able to say exact hours, no.
PN203
Does it open on weekends or just week days? Do you know that?‑‑‑I have no idea. Like I said, I honestly don't know the hours. I ring up when I know I can go and I also know that it's just one phone call to say, "Look, I'm really sorry, Mum's not well" or "Something's come up and I need to reschedule." I may have low iron levels at the time. There's no way of me knowing what's happening the next day. I just know that it's convenient and because I do have O negative - I don't know if you noticed that I have O negative blood type - I often get phone calls from them to say, "Could you please pop in?" And it could be ad hoc, it's not pre-arranged, it'll just be ad hoc and I'll get a phone call saying, "Can you please come in today." Work has never - - -
*** EMANUELA MAREE CARUSO XXN MS IMBRIANO
PN204
Ms Caruso, when you say you make an appointment, that's not actually necessary from the blood donor centre's point of view?‑‑‑Not with my blood type. Many times they've rung me ad hoc. In particular, at Easter time they rang me, but, unfortunately, my iron level was too low and I couldn't donate, but it's not unusual for them to call me ad hoc and say, "Could you pop in today or tomorrow because we're desperately low on O negative blood type?" My workplace has never, ever questioned me (indistinct) schedule it, "Yes, no problem, off you go." Never, ever been an issue.
PN205
Thank you. Mr Moretta, do you have any questions in re-examination?
MR MORETTA: Yes, if I may.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MORETTA [10.28 AM]
PN207
MR MORETTA: Ms Caruso, on the day that you make an arrangement to donate blood and there's a short absence from work, are you able to finish all your work and tasks for that shift that has been planned for you?‑‑‑Absolutely, without fail, without any doubt at all, I can answer that.
PN208
In terms of where you do donate blood, you will always endeavour to donate blood as close to work as possible?‑‑‑Absolutely, yes.
PN209
And you have that availability there - you say so many minutes' walking distance?‑‑‑Look, less than 10 minutes' walk away, and they're usually very good because they know that we go in during work time and they'll always accommodate our needs in terms of making sure we're not delayed in the process.
PN210
Thank you.
PN211
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That is the finish of your evidence, Ms Caruso, so thank you for making the time to give that evidence. You can go now by simply hanging up the phone?‑‑‑Okay, thank you very much.
Thank you.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.29 AM]
PN213
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that all we can do until 11 am, Mr Moretta?
*** EMANUELA MAREE CARUSO RXN MR MORETTA
PN214
MR MORETTA: There's no one in Melbourne at the moment. We might be able to get in touch with Stacey Hunter to see if she's available sooner.
PN215
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, we will adjourn and I will let you make those enquiries and when you're ready to resume, can you tell the associate?
PN216
MR MORETTA: Certainly, thank you.
PN217
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We will now adjourn.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.30 AM]
RESUMED [11.04 AM]
PN218
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Moretta, the next witness is Stacey Hunter; is that right?
PN219
MR MORETTA: Yes, Commissioner.
PN220
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, we will get Stacey Hunter on the phone.
PN221
THE ASSOCIATE: Good morning, Ms Hunter. Ms Hunter?
PN222
MS HUNTER: Yes.
PN223
THE ASSOCIATE: Good morning, this is Ingrid calling from the Fair Work Commission. How are you?
PN224
MS HUNTER: Good thank you, how are you?
PN225
THE ASSOCIATE: Good, thank you. I am calling you to give evidence before the Fair Work Commission this morning. Are you ready to proceed?
PN226
MS HUNTER: Yes.
PN227
THE ASSOCIATE: Just before we proceed, I am going to ask you to take an affirmation.
PN228
MS HUNTER: Yes.
PN229
THE ASSOCIATE: Would you mind stating your full name and address, please?
MS HUNTER: My full name is Stacey Julie Hunter, (address supplied).
<STACEY JULIE HUNTER, AFFIRMED [11.05 AM]
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER [11.05 AM]
PN231
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Hunter, it's Vice President Hatcher from the Fair Work Commission here. Do you have a copy of your affidavit with you?‑‑‑Yes.
PN232
That was made on 24 April 2017; is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.
PN233
Can you confirm that the contents of that are true and correct?‑‑‑That's right, yes.
I will mark the affidavit of Stacey Hunter, affirmed on 24 April 2017, as exhibit 2.
EXHIBIT #2 AFFIDAVIT OF STACEY JULIE HUNTER AFFIRMED ON 24/04/2017
PN235
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Hunter, some representatives of other parties opposed to the SDA's claim are going to ask you some questions now?‑‑‑Yes.
PN236
Please tell us if you can't hear clearly what is being asked of you; all right?‑‑‑I will, yes.
Ms Bhatt from the Australian Industry Group will be the first person to ask you some questions?‑‑‑Okay.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT [11.06 AM]
PN238
MS BHATT: Ms Hunter, can I start by taking you to paragraph 5 of your statement?‑‑‑Yes.
*** STACEY JULIE HUNTER XN VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER
*** STACEY JULIE HUNTER XXN MS BHATT
PN239
You say that your duties are predominantly as a sales assistant. Can you briefly describe what that involves?‑‑‑Yes, so I am in the deli department of Woolworths. I predominantly do set-up, start the day off, get everything ready for the shop to open at seven. Once I've set everything up, once the store opens, it's assisting customers with what they need for the day.
PN240
It sounds like you would be spending extended periods of time on your feet while you're working; is that correct?‑‑‑That is correct, yes, all day, there's no sitting.
PN241
Ms Hunter, can I then take you to paragraph 2 of your statement where you mention that you are married?‑‑‑Yes.
PN242
Is your husband employed?‑‑‑Yes.
PN243
What does he do?‑‑‑He is a systems integrator, so he's like a lighting technician.
PN244
I assume he works full time?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN245
At paragraph 14 of your statement, you say that you donate blood when the donation bus visits the car park near your workplace, which is in Birkdale?‑‑‑Yes.
PN246
Would you agree with my estimate that that blood donor centre is roughly a 10-minute drive from your home in (suburb supplied)?‑‑‑It would be roughly, yes.
PN247
I have had a look at the Red Cross Blood Services website and it seems to me that there are several other blood donor centres that are near (suburb supplied). Are you aware that there is a blood donor centre in - and I might be pronouncing this incorrectly - Capalaba?‑‑‑No, I'm not aware that there is one there.
PN248
Do you know where that suburb is?‑‑‑Yes.
PN249
Would you agree with my estimate that it's a less than 10-minute drive from your home in (suburb supplied)?‑‑‑Yes.
PN250
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Can you just spell that suburb for me, Ms Bhatt?
*** STACEY JULIE HUNTER XXN MS BHATT
PN251
MS BHATT: Yes, it's C-a-p-a-l-a-b-a.
PN252
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you.
PN253
COMMISSIONER SPENCER: Capalaba.
PN254
MS BHATT: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN255
Ms Hunter, are you aware that there is a blood donor centre in Cleveland?‑‑‑No.
PN256
Do you know where Cleveland is?‑‑‑Yes.
PN257
Would you agree with my estimate that it's roughly a 10-minute drive from your home in (suburb supplied)?‑‑‑Yes.
PN258
Are you aware that there's a blood donor centre in Manly West?‑‑‑No.
PN259
Do you know where Manly West is?‑‑‑Yes.
PN260
Would you agree with my estimate that Manly West is roughly a 15-minute drive from your home?‑‑‑Yes.
PN261
Are you aware that there is a blood donor centre in Victoria Point?‑‑‑No.
PN262
Do you know where Victoria Point is?‑‑‑Yes.
PN263
Would you agree with my estimate that it's roughly a 15-minute drive from your home?‑‑‑No, about 20.
PN264
Thank you. Ms Hunter, I am looking at paragraph 17 of your statement?‑‑‑Yes.
PN265
Based on that, am I correct in understanding that even if you didn't have an entitlement to paid blood donor leave, you would continue to donate blood, wouldn't you?‑‑‑I'd definitely try to do it where I could, but it is quite difficult for me with working hours and the availability of the van, what days I can get there.
*** STACEY JULIE HUNTER XXN MS BHATT
PN266
When you say "the van", you are referring to the van that's in Birkdale near your work?‑‑‑That's right, because I have the entitlement, it's right there for me to use, yes.
PN267
Is it the case then that because you have the leave entitlement and because there's a donor centre near your work, it is your preference to donate blood during work hours instead of outside of your working hours?‑‑‑Yes, because I've got the entitlement, yes, that's correct.
PN268
Can I take you to paragraph 16 of your statement. You refer there to your children's sporting activities?‑‑‑Yes.
PN269
Are these sporting activities that you have chosen to enrol your children in or are they compulsory?‑‑‑No, they're chosen. I don't think I know of a sporting that's compulsory.
PN270
Thank you. Am I right in assuming that they don't attend those sporting activities every day?‑‑‑They actually - they actually do, I'm sorry, yes, every afternoon.
PN271
At paragraph 16, you also say that you like to participate in fitness classes for your own health?‑‑‑Yes.
PN272
When you attend these fitness classes, who looks after your children?‑‑‑On the Friday when my children are at school and my only day off, I do it on Friday.
PN273
I have no further questions for Ms Hunter.
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you. Mr Roucek?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUCEK [11.13 AM]
PN275
MR ROUCEK: Ms Hunter, can you hear me clearly?‑‑‑Yes.
PN276
Ms Hunter, my name is Michael Roucek, I'm a representative from Australian Business Industrial and New South Wales Business Chamber?‑‑‑Yes.
PN277
How many employees would you say work in your Birkdale Woolworths branch?‑‑‑Just in my department?
*** STACEY JULIE HUNTER XXN MR ROUCEK
PN278
In your store?‑‑‑The whole store? In the whole store, I'd say over a hundred.
PN279
How many work in your section?‑‑‑In total, I would say that we have about 12 employees, maybe 14.
PN280
How many per shift when you are working?‑‑‑So there's roughly three on on my shift.
PN281
On the occasions you donate blood, what is the process for covering your absence whilst you are donating blood?‑‑‑Right, when I donate blood, I do it at the very end of my shift and it's pretty quiet at the end of my shift, around 1 o'clock, in our store, so I just take the entitled leave and the two employees that are there just cover it for me. I just work a bit harder during the day, in the morning, to get everything going, so it's nice and smooth for when I'm not there.
PN282
But there's always ample employees to cover your absence?‑‑‑Yes. They don't put anyone extra or anyone on, they just keep what's there.
PN283
This might seem like a silly question, but why couldn't you just donate blood on Fridays?‑‑‑Yes - no, it's not a silly question at all. Being a mother and working basically full time and only having that one day off, because I drop the kids at school in the morning at school and then I go to my fitness class, if there was a donation van around, available on that day, which, in my area, referring back to that lady that was saying there's all these donation blood clinics everywhere, I don't think they are - they might be scheduled to be there but they're not there every Friday, they only come like four times a year.
PN284
Ms Hunter - - -?‑‑‑Yes, so they're not there.
PN285
Ms Bhatt has outlined a number of donation location centres that are permanent fixtures?‑‑‑They are permanent fixtures? I don't know of one here at Birkdale that's permanent.
PN286
I understood that they were blood donation centres rather than vans?‑‑‑Rather than vans, okay, yes.
PN287
Allowing for the fact that some may be open on some days and some may be open on others?‑‑‑Okay.
*** STACEY JULIE HUNTER XXN MR ROUCEK
PN288
A number of those locations are very, very convenient for you, wouldn't you agree, in terms of their location to your home?‑‑‑They are very - they are convenient, yes, but, as I said, I wasn't aware that there was any permanent clinics around.
PN289
If you were minded to donate blood on a Friday, it would be quite a simple process to avail yourself of that information online, though, wouldn't it?‑‑‑Yes, yes, I'm sure it would be, yes. With me on the Friday, because I do the fitness class in the morning, I'd have to actually skip my fitness class because you can't give blood when you're doing fitness. You have to have a few hours' window, so it would be quite tight for me to go on the Friday and then I have to pick the kids up at school and stuff. It could be done, though, yes.
PN290
Thank you for that, Ms Hunter. I have no further questions.
PN291
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you. Ms Imbriano, did you wish to ask the witness any questions?
PN292
MS IMBRIANO: No, your Honour, I have no questions for this witness.
PN293
MS WELLARD: Your Honour, I have just a couple.
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, Ms Wellard, yes.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WELLARD [11.17 AM]
PN295
MS WELLARD: Ms Hunter, can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes.
PN296
My name is Sharleen Wellard, I am from the Pharmacy Guild and I have just a couple of questions for you?‑‑‑Yes.
PN297
Ms Hunter, have you ever worked in a pharmacy?‑‑‑No.
PN298
Where did you work prior to Woolworths?‑‑‑Prior to Woolworths - God, that was a long time ago - I have to think. I worked in a dental surgery was my first job out of school and then I did hospitality jobs after that.
*** STACEY JULIE HUNTER XXN MS WELLARD
PN299
Were you donating blood when you worked anywhere at any of your other employers before Woolworths?‑‑‑No, I've never done it before, no. It wasn't until the entitlement was given to us as Woolworths employees that it was even on my radar, to be honest. I never thought about it and it wasn't until my manager encouraged us to do it, yes, and I was fit enough to be able to do so and so that's how I started doing it.
PN300
Ms Hunter, is it a combination of both the entitlement in your enterprise agreement that allows you to have paid leave to donate blood and the fact that the mobile blood bank is in the near vicinity that prompts you to donate blood?‑‑‑Yes, definitely, yes.
PN301
You go to a fitness class on Fridays? That's your evidence, isn't it?‑‑‑Sorry?
PN302
You go to a fitness class on Fridays?‑‑‑Yes, Friday morning after I've dropped the kids off at school.
PN303
You donate blood three to four times per year; is that correct?‑‑‑That's right.
PN304
It would be possible to miss that fitness class three to four times a year to donate blood somewhere other than the mobile blood bank close to your work, wouldn't it?‑‑‑That could be done, yes, if I had to, yes.
PN305
At paragraph 12 of your statement, if you could just have a look at that, you say you donate blood because you consider it to be a worthwhile community service?‑‑‑That's right.
PN306
At paragraph 13, you say in the last part of your paragraph there that you are conscious of the need for society to pitch in and help each other out for the greater good?‑‑‑Yes.
PN307
Are there any other community services in which you participate?‑‑‑Yes, I have done a 60K walk to fund-raise for cancer. $2000, over, I raised myself and that was over a weekend period that event was on, and just doing the normal walk down the street where you raise for the Heart Foundation.
PN308
Those activities were not paid for by your employer, you didn't have paid leave to participate in those activities?‑‑‑No.
*** STACEY JULIE HUNTER XXN MS WELLARD
PN309
Ms Hunter, if your enterprise agreement provided an entitlement for you to participate in other forms of paid leave for community services, helping the homeless, donating time or working in a soup kitchen, would you participate in those activities?‑‑‑If they were paid?
PN310
Yes?‑‑‑If they - if it was within my - what's the word I'm trying to say - if I was available to, yes. It's not really so much the paid, it's the availability, convenience as well.
PN311
If it's during work time and it's paid leave to attend, would you participate?‑‑‑Definitely I would do that, of course.
PN312
I have no further questions.
PN313
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you. Ms Hunter, can I just ask you a couple of questions myself? On Monday through to Thursdays, you finish at 2.30 pm each day; is that right?‑‑‑That's right, yes.
PN314
In the document attached to your affidavit, it gives the opening hours for this Birkdale mobile donor centre; do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.
PN315
If I have read it correctly, on the specified dates, it's open until 4 pm on Mondays and 6 pm on Tuesdays. Is there any reason why you couldn't go to the van to donate immediately after you finish work?‑‑‑Yes, there's not enough time permitting to do that. It takes about - by the time you walk to the van, which is only, say, 10 minutes by the time I've finished work and walked up to the van, you have to sit there and then they interview you - that takes a little while - and then they put you in your chair and that takes a little while. It probably takes about - with recovery time and everything - over an hour, and then I couldn't be at school to pick my kids up on time.
PN316
What time do you pick up the children?‑‑‑The school finishes at three.
PN317
Three?‑‑‑Yes, there's just not enough time there to do that.
PN318
Thank you. Is there any re-examination, Mr Moretta?
MR MORETTA: Yes.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MORETTA [11.23 AM]
*** STACEY JULIE HUNTER RXN MR MORETTA
PN320
MR MORETTA: Ms Hunter, to be clear, the donation clinics available around your area, they are all mobile clinics, there aren't any permanent clinics?‑‑‑Okay. That's what I thought, yes.
PN321
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Moretta, I don't think we have established anything about these clinics yet in the sense that various questions have been put to the witness and she's simply not aware, so if people want to prove the existence or otherwise of these blood donor centres or whatever, they will have to produce some evidence of it. Asking a question is not evidence.
PN322
MR MORETTA: Sure.
PN323
Just a last question: do you value your entitlement to blood donor leave in your employment?‑‑‑Yes, I think it's very valuable. I think - - -
PN324
And that is why you use it?‑‑‑That's right, that's why I use it. I think it's great for the community, you know, helps saving lives. It's good that Woolworths has given employees to be able to do this.
PN325
Does your employer encourage blood donation?‑‑‑Yes, they have, yes. Well, I wouldn't have known about it if it wasn't for my employer telling us about it, about the entitlement initially, so yes.
PN326
Thank you.
PN327
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you for your evidence, Ms Hunter, thanks for making the time to give that evidence. You are now excused and free to go, which means you can simply hang up the phone?‑‑‑Okay, great, thank you.
Thank you.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.24 AM]
PN329
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Moretta, when is Mr Smith available?
PN330
MR MORETTA: Actually, it is Mr Zylstra who will be available, your Honour. He seems to be available now.
PN331
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Where is he? In Melbourne, is he?
*** STACEY JULIE HUNTER RXN MR MORETTA
PN332
MR MORETTA: Yes.
PN333
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Can we phone Mr Zylstra in Melbourne, please.
PN334
Mr Zylstra, I am going to ask the court associate in Melbourne to give you the oath or affirmation.
PN335
THE ASSOCIATE: Can you please state your full name and address.
MR ZYLSTRA: Trevor Anthony Zylstra, (address supplied).
<TREVOR ANTHONY ZYLSTRA, AFFIRMED [11.26 AM]
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER [11.26 AM]
PN337
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Zylstra, do you have a copy of your affidavit with you in the witness box?‑‑‑Yes, I do.
PN338
That has two pages and an annexure?‑‑‑Yes.
PN339
You affirmed that affidavit on 13 April 2017; is that right?‑‑‑I did.
PN340
Do you confirm the contents are true and correct?‑‑‑Yes, I do.
I will mark the affidavit of Trevor Zylstra, affirmed on 13 April 2017, as exhibit 3.
EXHIBIT #3 AFFIDAVIT OF TREVOR ANTHONY ZYLSTRA AFFIRMED ON 13/04/2017
PN342
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Zylstra, some of the other parties here in Sydney and perhaps in Melbourne are going to ask you some questions now, starting with Ms Bhatt from the Australian Industry Group. Please yell out if you can't hear her properly?‑‑‑Certainly.
PN343
There should be a screen where you can see Ms Bhatt standing at the Bar table here in Sydney?‑‑‑Yes.
*** TREVOR ANTHONY ZYLSTRA XN VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER
Ms Bhatt?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT [11.28 AM]
PN345
MS BHATT: Mr Zylstra, you can hear me?‑‑‑Yes, I can.
PN346
At paragraph 11 of your statement, you say that you are not aware of any blood donation centre in (suburb supplied); do you see that?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.
PN347
Are you aware of where the closest donor centre to your home is?‑‑‑I believe it might be Sunbury, but I haven't looked into it.
PN348
Is there a document attached to the witness statement that you have there with you which is a printout from the Australian Red Cross Blood Service website?‑‑‑Yes.
PN349
Did you obtain that document and attach it to your statement?‑‑‑It was given to me, yes.
PN350
Are you aware that there is a blood donor centre in Sunbury?‑‑‑Yes.
PN351
I have had a look at a map and it seems to me that Sunbury is a neighbouring suburb to (suburb supplied). Do you know where Sunbury is?‑‑‑Yes, I do.
PN352
Would you agree with my estimate that Sunbury is approximately a 15-minute drive from your home in (suburb supplied)?‑‑‑Yes.
PN353
Can I take you to paragraph 5 of your witness statement where you describe your working hours?‑‑‑Yes.
PN354
Based on that description, am I right in understanding that you are not rostered to work on Wednesdays?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN355
Based on that evidence that you have just given, you would accept, wouldn't you, that your work or your working hours don't prevent you from donating blood on a Wednesday?‑‑‑Yes, that's possible.
PN356
You have two teenage sons living with you; is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.
*** TREVOR ANTHONY ZYLSTRA XXN MS BHATT
PN357
Do they both go to school?‑‑‑Yes, they do.
PN358
Based on the evidence that you have just given now, you would accept, wouldn't you, that your caring responsibilities for your sons don't prevent you from donating blood on a Wednesday?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN359
If I can take you then to paragraph 6 of your statement, Mr Zylstra?‑‑‑Yes.
PN360
You say there that outside of work, you are busy with household chores. Can you tell me what those household chores are?‑‑‑Well, on a Wednesday, I take the boys to school and I do all the shopping for the week. Then I come home and do housework and then I cook a meal for the following night and I do all the washing of the clothes, vacuuming and the bathrooms, et cetera, because that's the easiest day to do it because I'm working every other weekend, and then I pick the boys up from school and take one to tennis training and then I cook the meal for the evening. Yes, it's a pretty busy day.
PN361
It sounds like it. I understand that your evidence just now was that it is easier for you to undertake those household duties on a Wednesday?‑‑‑Yes.
PN362
But you would agree, wouldn't you, that at least some of those chores could be undertaken on another day, for example, on a weekend when you are not rostered to work?‑‑‑The weekends I'm not rostered to work, I've got sport in the morning until like 11.30 and then, of course, we've got basketball in the later afternoon, and I've - I have a reasonably large property that's always taking maintenance, there's an awful lot of stuff to do outside, and I'm usually very busy on that two days or two and a-half days I might have each month on the weekends and, of course, there's always, you know, some family things to do as well, potentially - - -
PN363
Does the basketball - - -?‑‑‑With teenage boys needing clothes and stuff like that.
PN364
Sure. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. Does the basketball season run all year?‑‑‑Yes, it does, yes.
PN365
What is the sport that you - - -?‑‑‑Apart - sorry, apart from the school holidays.
*** TREVOR ANTHONY ZYLSTRA XXN MS BHATT
PN366
You refer to some sporting activity in the morning; what's that?‑‑‑That's tennis. One of my boys plays tennis as well and that's normally 9 to 11.30 or so, and that can be half an hour's drive or more away from home.
PN367
Is it your evidence that you have a number of personal commitments and because of the way that you prioritise them and you allocate time to them, it is difficult for you to donate blood in your own time?‑‑‑It's quite difficult, yes.
PN368
But you would accept that it's not impossible?‑‑‑No, that's correct, it's not impossible, no.
PN369
I have no further questions for Mr Zylstra.
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you. Mr Roucek?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUCEK [11.34 AM]
PN371
MR ROUCEK: Mr Zylstra, can you hear me clearly or see me as well?‑‑‑Yes, I can.
PN372
Excellent. Mr Zylstra, you work at Michael's Cameras Video Digital; is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN373
How long have you worked there for?‑‑‑Almost 18 years.
PN374
How many employees work in your store?‑‑‑Well, there's about 60 people working in the store. There's usually 12 to 14 or so people working in the camera sales area that I work in.
PN375
Twelve people work in your area?‑‑‑Yes, 12 or more. It varies from day to day.
PN376
You are a senior sales consultant; is that right?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN377
Could you please just generally describe your responsibilities and the responsibilities of those who might report to you?‑‑‑As a senior sales consultant, I sometimes need to direct some of the other staff members to their duties, but we are all really relatively independent adults as such and we know what our duties are, so we look after our allotted areas of the store for maintenance and, you know, we serve customers when we need to, of course - that's our primary job - and we do a little bit of training every other week or so, depending on new products coming in and things like that.
*** TREVOR ANTHONY ZYLSTRA XXN MR ROUCEK
PN378
Mr Zylstra, how often do you donate blood?‑‑‑I haven't donated blood for quite some time, as per my affidavit, because it just became rather difficult.
PN379
Okay?‑‑‑When I was donating blood, I tried to do it maybe twice a year or three times a year.
PN380
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: When you did do it, how and when did you do it?‑‑‑Well, I used to basically go out in my lunch hour and go down to Collins Street to do that, and then the system changed and you had to make appointments and it became a little bit too difficult and I was worried about having a longer time away than my lunch hour would permit.
PN381
Thank you.
PN382
MR ROUCEK: Mr Zylstra, when you say that the system changed and it became difficult, could you describe those difficulties, please?‑‑‑Previously, you could just go at pretty much at any time, so you could just go and donate blood, but then they changed it because it was obviously difficult for them and you had to make an appointment in advance to do it.
PN383
As I understand it, it became too difficult - it became too difficult to make appointments or it became too difficult for your employer to cover employees who wished to donate blood?‑‑‑It was more just, you know, making a specific time to do that, and possibly, I think - it's a long time ago - I may have ended up - I might have been sick for a while and I ended up getting out of the habit of it.
PN384
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Zylstra, do you know the opening hours of this blood donor centre in Collins Street?‑‑‑They were, I think, sort of 8 o'clock to 4 o'clock or 5 o'clock, I think.
PN385
Thank you.
PN386
MR ROUCEK: In terms of those difficulties, was there any particular difficulty with other employees covering those absences?‑‑‑No, there's quite a number of people on the floor and as long as you organise a time that's quiet and, you know, obviously convenient for everybody, covering a person for an extra half an hour or so, if you include their lunch break, is not difficult.
PN387
I have no further questions, thank you, Mr Zylstra.
*** TREVOR ANTHONY ZYLSTRA XXN MR ROUCEK
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Wellard?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WELLARD [11.38 AM]
PN389
MS WELLARD: Mr Zylstra, the opening hours in the Melbourne CBD blood bank are 7 am to 7 pm Monday to Thursday. Would you be able to donate blood - - -
PN390
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that a question?
PN391
MS WELLARD: There's a question coming from it.
PN392
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Was that a question? Where do you get that from?
PN393
MS WELLARD: I put it to you that is what they are.
PN394
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right.
PN395
MS WELLARD: You haven't made any enquiries as to the opening hours recently of the CBD blood bank, have you?‑‑‑Not recently, no.
PN396
If the opening hours were 7 am to 7 pm Monday to Thursday, would you be able to donate blood before work?‑‑‑No, I can't because my boys don't have any way of getting to school unless I take them to the bus stop.
PN397
What time do you take them to the bus stop?‑‑‑Ten past 8.
PN398
You finish work at 6 and 7 pm on Monday to Friday; is that correct?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.
PN399
And you work every second weekend on Saturdays; is that correct?‑‑‑Saturdays and Sundays, yes.
*** TREVOR ANTHONY ZYLSTRA XXN MS WELLARD
PN400
If the blood bank in Melbourne CBD was open at 8 am on a Saturday, would you be able to donate blood before work on a Saturday?‑‑‑It would be difficult because I normally take one of my sons to tennis and then come home and get on the bike and come to work so I can get to work on time. Yes, it's not impossible but it would be difficult logistically.
PN401
How many times a year would you like to donate blood if you could?‑‑‑Probably twice a year, maybe three times a year.
PN402
Do you think you could manage donating blood on a Saturday morning twice a year before work?‑‑‑It would be difficult, logistically difficult to do.
PN403
Twice a year?‑‑‑Yes, it's possible, yes, I possibly could during the school holidays, if I had a Saturday that day.
PN404
As I understand it, there is a blood bank in Sunbury - you accepted that - and there's a page next to your statement that details the opening hours of the Sunbury blood bank; is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.
PN405
I understand your evidence to say you had never looked into whether there was a blood bank in Sunbury; is that correct?‑‑‑I did look into it a few months ago when I was discussing this with my union representative.
PN406
Just one final question, Mr Zylstra. What steps have you taken to try and donate blood recently?‑‑‑As I said, I haven't tried recently because I've been extremely busy with raising my three children and getting them through high school, and it was an email from the union saying, "Have you donated blood before?" and that's what sort of - "No, I haven't done that in a long time" and I remembered the reasons why I did it in the first place, because there's not terribly many people - there are only certain people who can go and donate blood and we should all try and do that because we all take advantage of, you know, our wonderful health system and we should be supportive if we can. It had just passed - I'd completely sort of forgotten about it until I saw that email, although I had been doing it regularly at some point.
PN407
It was a mistake for me to say I have one final question, Mr Zylstra, I should never say that?‑‑‑Yes, okay.
PN408
I do have another. You say, if I understand your evidence correctly, that you think it's an important thing to do to donate blood and we all should do it and you were reminded about that when you got the email from the union, but your evidence is you haven't taken any steps recently to try and see if you could donate blood. That's correct, isn't it?‑‑‑That is correct, yes.
*** TREVOR ANTHONY ZYLSTRA XXN MS WELLARD
PN409
Is your willingness to donate blood contingent on there being a paid leave entitlement under your award?‑‑‑No, but I think every encouragement should be given to people to donate blood and, if it's convenient for them at work, and obviously a lot of people work in town, I can only see it as a good thing for society in general.
PN410
Thank you, I have no further questions.
PN411
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Imbriano, do you have any questions?
PN412
MS IMBRIANO: I do, your Honour, I just have a few.
PN413
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, go ahead.
MS IMBRIANO: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS IMBRIANO [11.43 AM]
PN415
MS IMBRIANO: Mr Zylstra, my name is Belinda Imbriano. I just want to ask you a few questions in relation to the previous questions that were asked by my learned colleagues. You have said in your cross-examination that your commitments with basketball and tennis, you are more busier when it's not school holidays; is that correct?‑‑‑That's right, yes.
PN416
Do you think you would have more time during school holidays to donate blood?‑‑‑Yes, it's quite - quite likely.
PN417
It's quite possible?‑‑‑The only proviso on that is that - and this is not an excuse - but with both parents working full time and a largish property, I always seem to be, at the moment with the kids at high school, I seem to be going backwards rather than forwards in things, like I haven't painted my windows in 15 years. There's always things that I need to be doing, so it's always a balance, but, yes, there is more time during the school holidays, that's true.
PN418
With basketball and tennis not being undertaken by your sons during school holidays, you would say confidently you could maybe make some arrangements to donate blood during that time?‑‑‑Yes, quite possibly, yes.
PN419
Okay, not a problem. I have no further questions, your Honour.
*** TREVOR ANTHONY ZYLSTRA XXN MS IMBRIANO
PN420
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, thank you. Mr Moretta, do you have any questions in re-examination?
MR MORETTA: Yes.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MORETTA [11.44 AM]
PN422
MR MORETTA: Mr Zylstra, have there been any times in the year when you have a condition diagnosed of low iron or any condition that you think you might be unwell, might not be able to donate blood?‑‑‑Previously - sometimes I have a little bit of low blood pressure and if I have low blood pressure then I can't donate, but, yes, that's really the only thing.
PN423
Mr Zylstra, you are aware of the provision, the actual blood donor leave provision that we are trying to insert into the General Retail Industry Award, which you are covered by? You are aware of the entitlement that we are trying to seek?‑‑‑Yes, I am.
PN424
You are aware that the provision is capped at four times a year up to two hours?‑‑‑Yes, I am.
PN425
Would you take advantage of that provision if it was in conditions of employment that you would donate blood four times a year?‑‑‑Yes, up to four times a year, yes.
PN426
You also are aware of the other terms of the provision that, in terms of arranging a time to donate blood, it would be on a day suitable to your employer?‑‑‑Yes, I am, yes.
PN427
That would make it clear for you in terms of how the provision would apply?
PN428
MS BHATT: I object to that question. I don't see how any of this arises from cross-examination.
PN429
MR MORETTA: I think there were questions about whether he was able to donate blood outside work and he doesn't have the provision, so I'm just trying to ascertain that having the provision there that he is able to donate blood and how he - - -
*** TREVOR ANTHONY ZYLSTRA RXN MR MORETTA
PN430
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think the witness has already said that he would take advantage of it if the entitlement existed.
PN431
MR MORETTA: Thank you, your Honour.
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. If there is nothing further arising, thank you for your evidence, Mr Zylstra. Thank you for attending today. You are now excused and you are free to leave?‑‑‑Thank you.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.47 AM]
PN433
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Who is next, Mr Moretta?
PN434
MR MORETTA: Glenn Smith, your Honour.
PN435
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is he in Melbourne courtroom, is he?
PN436
MR MORETTA: Yes, he is in the Melbourne court.
PN437
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, could we get Mr Smith in, please.
PN438
THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name and address.
MR SMITH: Glenn Michael Smith, (address supplied).
<GLENN MICHAEL SMITH, SWORN [11.48 AM]
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER [11.48 AM]
PN440
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Smith, can you hear us clearly there?‑‑‑Yes.
PN441
Do you have a copy of your first affidavit with you?‑‑‑Yes.
PN442
That is two pages and has an attached page headed "Where to donate"?‑‑‑Yes.
PN443
That affidavit was affirmed on 12 April 2017?‑‑‑Yes, 12 April 2017.
*** GLENN MICHAEL SMITH XN VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER
PN444
Do you confirm that the contents of that affidavit are true and correct?‑‑‑That's correct.
I will mark that affidavit as exhibit 4.
EXHIBIT #4 AFFIDAVIT OF GLENN MICHAEL SMITH AFFIRMED ON 12/04/2017
PN446
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Then you made a supplementary statement dated 11 July 2017, which has one page. Do you have that with you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.
PN447
Do you confirm the contents of that are true and correct?‑‑‑That's correct.
I will mark the supplementary statement of Mr Smith dated 11 July 2017 as exhibit 5.
EXHIBIT #5 SUPPLEMENTARY STATEMENT OF GLENN MICHAEL SMITH DATED 11/07/2017
PN449
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Smith, some of the parties in Sydney now will ask you some questions, so you should be able to see them at the Bar table on one of the video screens there. Please tell us if you can't hear the questions properly. Ms Bhatt from the Australian Industry Group will ask you questions first. All right?‑‑‑Yes.
Ms Bhatt?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT [11.50 AM]
PN451
MS BHATT: Mr Smith, can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes, I can.
PN452
At paragraph 3 of your first statement, you say that at JB Hi-Fi you worked predominantly at the back of the store as a storeman. Can you tell the Commission what that actually involved?‑‑‑Basically Monday to Friday just being in the storeroom, taking deliveries of what stock comes into the shop and doing online orders and just general storeroom duties out the back.
PN453
Would your duties have required you to be on your feet for extended periods of time?‑‑‑Most of the time, yes.
*** GLENN MICHAEL SMITH XXN MS BHATT
PN454
It sounds like at least some of your duties might have been physically strenuous; is that right?‑‑‑Yes, lifting TVs and stuff on overheads.
PN455
Thank you. I understand that you now work for Radio Rentals and, at paragraph 5 of your second statement, you say that you work predominantly in the back of the store and your work also requires you to take deliveries, to make deliveries rather?‑‑‑Yes.
PN456
Can you describe to the Commission what your new job involves?‑‑‑I'm a field representative now, but I do take deliveries of what comes in the back of the shop like TVs, fridges, washing machines, couches, beds, all that kind of stuff, and I do deliveries in case of putting stuff into the van and taking it to customers' houses.
PN457
You would agree that at least some of your duties are physically strenuous in your new job as well?‑‑‑Yes.
PN458
Can I take you to paragraph 7 of your first statement. You say there that you train and play cricket on the weekends during the cricket season?‑‑‑Yes.
PN459
During what months of the year does the cricket season run?‑‑‑I train about August and September it starts to about - if we're in the finals, it would be March.
PN460
When you attend training, is that only on the weekends?‑‑‑Saturdays, most of the time. Again, in the finals, it might be a Saturday or Sunday, or it is a Saturday and Sunday game because it's a two-day match.
PN461
Do you ever train on a week night?‑‑‑Yes, Tuesdays and Thursday nights.
PN462
When you train on a week night, what time do you attend that training?‑‑‑It starts about 5.30 and finishes about 7, 7.30.
PN463
When you attend that training on a week night, who looks after your young son?‑‑‑If it's not a young person that looks after him at cricket there, which is just a helper, it would be my mother or my wife.
PN464
I understand that your wife works as a full-time nurse; is that correct?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.
*** GLENN MICHAEL SMITH XXN MS BHATT
PN465
At paragraph 6, you say that from time to time she works night shifts; is that right?‑‑‑Yes, night shifts from 8 o'clock till 6.30 in the morning.
PN466
So it's true, isn't it, that even when your wife is working a night shift - sorry, I withdraw the question. Is it the case that there would be at least some afternoons or evenings when neither you nor your wife are at work?‑‑‑Yes, that's true.
PN467
Can I take you to paragraph 8 of your first statement?‑‑‑Yes.
PN468
You say that you have been donating blood for over two years and in that time you have only donated blood twice?‑‑‑Yes.
PN469
On those two occasions, were you employed by JB Hi-Fi?‑‑‑Yes, I was.
PN470
Did you donate blood during working hours?‑‑‑No, I didn't.
PN471
Can you tell me how and when you donated blood?‑‑‑Well, the first time - I'd never done it before - I just went past and just went in there on my day off, which was like a Thursday, I believe, and did it then, and then the second time was on a Friday after work.
PN472
At paragraph 13 of your statement, you say that if you had access to paid blood donor leave, you would access it?‑‑‑Yes.
PN473
Would you agree with me that, in essence, because of some personal commitments that you have referred to, you have essentially a preference for donating blood during working hours instead of outside of working hours?‑‑‑Yes.
PN474
I have no further questions, thank you.
PN475
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you. Mr Roucek, do you have any questions?
PN476
MR ROUCEK: I do not, Vice President.
PN477
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Wellard?
*** GLENN MICHAEL SMITH XXN MS BHATT
MS WELLARD: Yes.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WELLARD [11.56 AM]
PN479
MS WELLARD: Mr Smith, my name is Sharleen Wellard and I represent the Pharmacy Guild. Have you ever worked in a pharmacy?‑‑‑No.
PN480
In your statements, you say that you worked at JB Hi-Fi and now currently at Radio Rentals. How many employees are there at JB Hi-Fi?‑‑‑All up with part time and some casual workers, probably about 30 or so.
PN481
How many are at Radio Rentals?‑‑‑Six in total.
PN482
Of those six employees at Radio Rentals, are they mostly permanent, part time or casual, if you know?‑‑‑Three part time and three casual.
PN483
That doesn't include management; is that right?‑‑‑That includes management.
PN484
I have no further questions.
PN485
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Imbriano, do you have any questions?
MS IMBRIANO: Yes, your Honour, I just have a few.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS IMBRIANO [11.57 AM]
PN487
MS IMBRIANO: Mr Smith, I just would like to ask you a few questions. You say in your witness statement that you work until 5 pm Monday to Friday; is that correct?‑‑‑At Radio Rentals now, yes.
PN488
Are you aware that here is a blood donor clinic in Shepparton?‑‑‑Yes.
PN489
Could you say that you could donate blood after work?‑‑‑If those hours were open, yes.
*** GLENN MICHAEL SMITH XXN MS WELLARD
*** GLENN MICHAEL SMITH XXN MS IMBRIANO
PN490
The blood donor clinic closes at 7.30. Do you think that's enough time to be able to get to the clinic, potentially, to donate blood?‑‑‑More than likely, yes.
PN491
More than likely, thank you. Nothing further, your Honour.
PN492
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any questions in re-examination, Mr Moretta?
MR MORETTA: Yes, your Honour.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MORETTA [11.58 AM]
PN494
MR MORETTA: Mr Smith, Mauro Moretta from the SDA. You were asked before whether your preference was to donate blood during work hours rather than outside work hours. Can you explain why your preference would be to donate during the hours that you work?‑‑‑Because of commitments with my two year old son. It's hard with my wife doing different shifts. Just to go home and look after him because my wife's like sometimes doing afternoon shifts and finishes at 8.30, or get home and cook tea and get organised before she goes to work and, again, cricket season comes into play and just family commitments really, just getting time to do that, because you don't see your family all the time because of work commitments.
PN495
You were also asked about the composition of the people working in your workplace. There were, I believe, three part-timers and three casuals?‑‑‑At the new job now?
PN496
At the new job, at Radio Rentals?‑‑‑Yes, three full-timers and three part-timers or casual.
PN497
In relation to your job, who can actually do your job? If you were not there, how many people could do your job?‑‑‑The manager and maybe one of the casuals.
PN498
To your knowledge, if you were able to donate blood during work hours, do you think the number of staff that would be available during your shift would be enough to cover the absence from work?‑‑‑Yes, yes.
PN499
What times would you probably go to donate blood if it was during your work time?‑‑‑Probably round about lunch time.
PN500
Why would that be?‑‑‑Just basically it's more convenient, I can have my half an hour break and have a little bit longer to donate blood.
*** GLENN MICHAEL SMITH RXN MR MORETTA
PN501
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Smith, at the Shepparton blood donor centre, do you need to make an appointment or can you just drop in at any time they are open and give blood?‑‑‑That I don't know. I think you've got to make an appointment, but I'd have to find out.
PN502
Is there anything further, Mr Moretta?
PN503
MR MORETTA: No, your Honour.
PN504
MS WELLARD: Your Honour, I have one question arising from Mr Moretta's.
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, go ahead. So one further question, perhaps.
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WELLARD [12.01 PM]
PN506
MS WELLARD: Are you aware of the clause that the union is asking this Commission to put into the award that would give you an entitlement to blood donor leave?‑‑‑Probably not.
PN507
It was your evidence that you would prefer to give blood at lunch time in response to a question that Mr Moretta just asked you; is that correct?‑‑‑It would be more convenient, yes.
PN508
So you would prefer to give blood at lunch time rather than the beginning or end of your shift; is that correct?‑‑‑It comes down to how much time I've got during the day with what my duties are, so if I can plan ahead with giving blood and that's the time I have to go, I can work around that.
PN509
Because other people are covering for you, it would be easier to do that over your break; is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.
PN510
No further questions.
PN511
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Moretta, did you want to re-examine on any of those questions?
MR MORETTA: Yes, please.
*** GLENN MICHAEL SMITH FXXN MS WELLARD
FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MORETTA [12.02 PM]
PN513
MR MORETTA: Michael Mauro from the SDA, Mr Smith. Mr Smith, you just said that you're not aware of the actual provision of the clause, the blood donor leave that the union or the SDA is seeking to put in your award. You have been given the actual entitlement that we are seeking to put in the award?‑‑‑Yes, yes.
PN514
Do you understand what that entitlement is?‑‑‑With reading that, yes.
PN515
You understand that the entitlement would be four times you can donate blood in a year?‑‑‑I believe it's four times a year.
PN516
MS BHATT: I don't understand how this arises.
PN517
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Where are we going with this? I think we know what the claim is.
PN518
MR MORETTA: Sure.
PN519
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Where are we going with this?
PN520
MR MORETTA: So if you had that - - -
PN521
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Moretta, where are we going with this?
PN522
MR MORETTA: I just wanted to ask that he understands the entitlement that we are seeking and whether he would use that entitlement if it was available to him.
PN523
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: It is dealt with in paragraph 13 of exhibit 4, isn't it?
PN524
MR MORETTA: That's right, your Honour, thank you.
*** GLENN MICHAEL SMITH FXXN MS WELLARD
*** GLENN MICHAEL SMITH FRXN MR MORETTA
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Thank you for your evidence, Mr Smith. We appreciate you taking the time to be here today. You are excused and you are free to go.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.04 PM]
PN526
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Do we have any further witnesses before lunch?
PN527
MR MORETTA: We could do both Deborah Allen and Dale Allen.
PN528
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Who will be first?
PN529
MR MORETTA: Dale Adam, who is on the phone.
PN530
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Mr Moretta, is that Deborah Allen who has just entered the courtroom?
PN531
MR MORETTA: Dale.
PN532
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, just behind you?
PN533
MR MORETTA: It's not. It is Dale Allen who will be on the phone.
PN534
THE ASSOCIATE: Good afternoon, Mr Allen.
PN535
MS DALE ALLEN: Mrs Allen.
PN536
THE ASSOCIATE: Mrs Allen?
PN537
MS DALE ALLEN: Yes.
PN538
THE ASSOCIATE: Good afternoon, Mrs Allen, this is Ingrid calling from the Fair Work Commission. I am dialling you into the hearing to give your evidence today. Are you ready to proceed?
PN539
MS DALE ALLEN: Yes, that's fine.
PN540
THE ASSOCIATE: Just before we do that, I am going to administer an affirmation. Could you state your full name and address, please.
*** GLENN MICHAEL SMITH FRXN MR MORETTA
MS DALE ALLEN: It's Dale Alice Allen of (address supplied).
<DALE ALICE ALLEN, AFFIRMED [12.06 PM]
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER [12.06 PM]
PN542
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Allen, it's Vice President Hatcher for the Fair Work Commission. Do you have a copy of your affidavit with you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.
PN543
That has two pages and an attachment which says "Where to donate"?‑‑‑Sorry?
PN544
It has two pages and then it has an attachment with a heading "Where to donate"?‑‑‑Yes.
PN545
That affidavit was made by you on 21 April this year?‑‑‑Yes.
PN546
Do you confirm that the contents of the affidavit are true and correct?‑‑‑I want to go to paragraph 13. There's a typo.
PN547
Yes, what's the typo?‑‑‑I meant "extra community activities" not "extra curricular activity". Sorry about that. The rest is fine.
PN548
I will make that correction. Are there any other corrections?‑‑‑No.
PN549
Is the affidavit true and correct with that correction?‑‑‑Yes.
I will mark the affidavit of Dale Alice Allen made on 21 April 2017 exhibit 6.
EXHIBIT #6 AFFIDAVIT OF DALE ALICE ALLEN AFFIRMED ON 21/04/2017
PN551
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Allen, representatives of some of the organisations opposed to the SDA's claim will ask you some questions now?‑‑‑Right.
PN552
Please tell me if you can't hear them properly?‑‑‑Okay.
*** DALE ALICE ALLEN XN VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER
Ms Bhatt from the Australian Industry Group will be the first?‑‑‑Right.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT [12.08 PM]
PN554
MS BHATT: Ms Allen, this is Ms Bhatt. Can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes.
PN555
At paragraph 4 of your statement, you say that your duties are predominantly as an inventory assistant?‑‑‑Yes.
PN556
Can you tell the Commission what that involves?‑‑‑That involves putting stock on the shelf, helping customers, doing planograms, which are new layouts of products.
PN557
It sounds like in relation to at least some of your duties, you would be spending extended periods of time on your feet; is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.
PN558
At paragraph 9 of your statement, you say that you have donated blood once. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.
PN559
Then if I take you to paragraph 11 of your statement, the second sentence says:
PN560
The process takes one to two hours, including travel and recovery time.
PN561
?‑‑‑Yes.
PN562
Is it true to say that the last time you donated blood, which is also the only time you have donated blood, it took one to two hours, including travel and recovery time?‑‑‑I've donated again since making this affidavit and it does take one to two hours.
PN563
The evidence that you give at paragraph 11 regarding the time that it takes to donate blood is based on the two instances in which you have donated blood; is that right?‑‑‑Yes.
*** DALE ALICE ALLEN XXN MS BHATT
PN564
I understand that it's your evidence that it would be significantly harder for you to donate blood if you didn't have a paid leave entitlement under your enterprise agreement and I understand that's at least in part because of some family and household commitments. At paragraph 10 of your statement, you say that you donate blood because it is an important community service that helps save lives?‑‑‑Yes.
PN565
You go on to say:
PN566
I was also touched by an article in the local newspaper about a young boy who requires regular transfusions.
PN567
?‑‑‑Yes.
PN568
Based on that evidence, you would agree with me, wouldn't you, that even if you didn't have a paid leave entitlement to donate blood, you would still try to do so?‑‑‑Yes.
PN569
Indeed, I imagine that you would make every effort to do so; would you agree with that?‑‑‑Yes.
PN570
Thank you, I have no further questions.
PN571
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Roucek?
MR ROUCEK: Thank you, Vice President.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUCEK [12.11 PM]
PN573
MR ROUCEK: Ms Allen, can you hear me clearly?‑‑‑Yes, I can.
PN574
Thank you, Ms Allen. You work at Woolworths in Leongatha; is that right?‑‑‑Yes, I do.
PN575
How long have you worked there for?‑‑‑For 22 years.
PN576
How many employees work in your store?‑‑‑Roughly 150. I'm not exactly sure on the number, sorry.
PN577
That's okay, thank you, Ms Allen. How many employees are also inventory assistants?‑‑‑Five. That's full time and part-timers and then there's casual staff.
*** DALE ALICE ALLEN XXN MR ROUCEK
PN578
Roughly, would you say, out of the five, how many are full time, how many are part time and how many are casuals?‑‑‑Full time there's one, two, three, part time, three and casual, there would be eight.
PN579
At paragraph 7 of your affidavit, you describe that you work 28 hours per week, Monday 9 am to 3.30, Wednesday 6 am to 3 pm, Thursday 8.30 am to 5.30 pm, Friday 9 am to 3.30 pm each week. Is that still the case?‑‑‑Yes, it is.
PN580
So you don't work on Tuesdays, Saturdays or Sundays?‑‑‑I'm not contracted to Tuesdays, Saturdays or Sundays but I have been flexing up and working on Tuesdays.
PN581
Those are your regular hours for the past two years and you can predict with general certainty that that's your hours?‑‑‑Yes.
PN582
This might seem like a silly question but what is stopping you from donating on the days of the week you're not working?‑‑‑It's a mobile clinic, so they're only here every three months and, after work, I have other commitments with family and children.
PN583
At paragraph 13, you say that you have two children, they are 13 and 15?‑‑‑Yes.
PN584
Do you have sole care and responsibilities for your children?‑‑‑Yes.
PN585
What do you do in circumstances that you're working and your children are at home?‑‑‑They're old enough to look after - stay home on their own.
PN586
In those situations, if they can look after themselves and you state that blood donation takes one to two hours, what is preventing you from donating blood at a time which you are not working and they are able to look after themselves?‑‑‑They have other - they have sporting commitments that I have to drive them to and it just works to donate at that time of the day with my boss.
*** DALE ALICE ALLEN XXN MR ROUCEK
PN587
When you are not at work, and the indication is in your materials that the Leongatha donation centre is, at least in this point in time, from 5 June to 16 June present Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday in the first week and then Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, there would surely be enough time to donate blood at a time when the donation facilities are available and you're not at work?‑‑‑Possibly, but not - I'm not always - like they're only here every three months, you can only donate every eight weeks, they're only here every three months and when they're here, that's just a time that I can get there.
PN588
If you prioritised the blood donation at those particular times when they are available, you could do that, though, couldn't you?‑‑‑Possibly.
PN589
Thank you, no further questions.
PN590
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Wellard?
MS WELLARD: Yes.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WELLARD [12.16 PM]
PN592
MS WELLARD: Ms Allen, my name is Sharleen Wellard. I represent the Pharmacy Guild. I have some questions for you. Have you ever worked in a pharmacy?‑‑‑No.
PN593
Forgive me, how long did you say you have worked at Woolworths?‑‑‑Twenty-two years.
PN594
At paragraph 10 of your statement, you say that you donate blood because it's an important community service and helps save lives?‑‑‑Yes.
PN595
Are there any other things that you would consider to be important community services in which you participate?‑‑‑SES, I'm on the committee for my son's basketball, yes, help out at schools and - - -
PN596
Ms Allen - sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off?‑‑‑No, you're right, that's all good.
PN597
You participate in those activities outside work time; is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.
PN598
So you don't receive paid leave to attend those activities?‑‑‑No.
PN599
If your employer, Woolworths, had in its enterprise agreement a clause that allowed you to participate in other paid community service activities, for example, volunteering at a local soup kitchen, would you participate in those activities?‑‑‑Yes.
*** DALE ALICE ALLEN XXN MS WELLARD
PN600
I have no further questions.
PN601
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Imbriano, do you have any questions?
PN602
MS IMBRIANO: No, your Honour, no questions.
PN603
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination, Mr Moretta?
MR MORETTA: Yes, your Honour.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MORETTA [12.17 PM]
PN605
MR MORETTA: Ms Allen, Mauro Moretta from the SDA. You said that you have donated blood since you've signed the affidavit. That's your second occasion?‑‑‑Yes.
PN606
When was that?‑‑‑My God, I didn't take a note of when.
PN607
But it was during work time?‑‑‑Yes, it was, with my boss.
PN608
How was that arranged?‑‑‑I made the appointment when we were at the mobile clinic the first time for the next time that they would be in town and he made his appointment at the same time. So he knew three months in advance that I would be going to give blood again.
PN609
The timing of the attendance, is there any consideration that you give in terms of the timing? Considering that it's during work time, is there any consideration why a particular time that you might donate blood during work? What are the factors that you might consider at a particular time?‑‑‑Going at - it's just a time that suits. It works - - -
PN610
Suits your employer, suits your manager?‑‑‑Yes, suits my - yes, suits my boss.
PN611
So you do have that discussion with your boss when you've at least arranged and made an appointment?‑‑‑Yes.
*** DALE ALICE ALLEN RXN MR MORETTA
PN612
How many people are actually rostered on with you when you're at work that do your work as an inventory sales person?‑‑‑In my department on that day, there are three other staff members.
PN613
At the time that you did arrange to go and donate blood, how long were you away from work?‑‑‑One hour.
PN614
In that time, were you able to complete your tasks for that shift?‑‑‑Yes. On the day that I give blood, they do not have to employ anyone else to cover my shift and I get my work done when I get back.
PN615
Thank you.
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think that's all the questions we have, Ms Allen, so thank you for attending today. You are now excused, which means you can simply hang up the phone?‑‑‑Thank you.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.20 PM]
PN617
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, is Ms Deborah Allen next?
PN618
MR MORETTA: Yes.
PN619
THE ASSOCIATE: Would you please state your full name and address.
MS DEBORAH ALLEN: Deborah Ann Allen, (address supplied).
<DEBORAH ANN ALLEN, SWORN [12.21 PM]
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER [12.21 PM]
PN621
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Allen, do you have a copy of your affidavit with you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.
PN622
Can I ask you to get it out, please?‑‑‑Certainly.
PN623
You have got two pages there with an attached page headed "Where to donate"; is that right?‑‑‑That's right.
*** DEBORAH ANN ALLEN XN VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER
PN624
You affirmed the affidavit on 20 April 2017?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN625
Do you confirm the contents of the affidavit are true and correct?‑‑‑Yes.
I will mark the affidavit of Deborah Ann Allen affirmed on 20 April 2017 as exhibit 7.
EXHIBIT #7 AFFIDAVIT OF DEBORAH ANN ALLEN AFFIRMED ON 20/04/2017
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Some of the other parties will ask you some questions now. Ms Bhatt, I think, will go first.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT [12.22 PM]
PN628
MS BHATT: Good afternoon, Ms Allen, my name is Ms Bhatt and I appear in these proceedings on behalf of the Australian Industry Group, which is an organisation that opposes the SDA's claim. I have just a few questions for you?‑‑‑Certainly.
PN629
I understand from your statement that you donate blood using the paid leave entitlement in your enterprise agreement; that's right, isn't it?‑‑‑That's right.
PN630
Can I take you to paragraph 13 of your statement where you say:
PN631
I am also what is referred to as a therapeutic donor. This is someone who needs to donate to control the high levels of iron in their blood.
PN632
?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN633
I have tried to do a little bit of research about this and I'm wondering if you can assist the Commission with this. Based on your evidence, am I correct in understanding that you have a medical condition called haemochromatosis which requires you to donate blood?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN634
That process of donating blood, in light of that condition, is that called blood-letting?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.
*** DEBORAH ANN ALLEN XXN MS BHATT
PN635
Am I right in assuming that even if you didn't have a paid leave entitlement in your enterprise agreement, you would nonetheless continue to donate blood because, indeed, you would need to to assist manage the condition?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN636
Is it also true that if you are unable to attend a Red Cross blood donor centre for this process of blood-letting, you might also be able to attend a hospital or a private pathology clinic?‑‑‑I would say no on that. Because of our medical system, I don't have that time to be sitting there for that long. With the blood donor service, you make an appointment and I go in right on my appointment at the time that I need to.
PN637
I understand that. If we put the time constraints or waiting times to one side, would you accept that it is possible to undergo that process of blood-letting at a hospital or a pathology clinic?‑‑‑Well, my haematologist made me a therapeutic donor, so that's what I have done.
PN638
Am I correct in characterising this this way, that although you need to donate blood, you have a preference for doing it during your working hours instead of doing it outside of your working hours? Would you agree with that?‑‑‑I try to. On my days off, I mind my grandchildren, so it's the availability of the blood bank at the times that I can do it. In saying that, the company has three months' notice from one donation to the next.
PN639
It is true then that in light of your personal commitments, you have a preference for doing it during working hours? You would agree with that?‑‑‑If I have to, yes. It's in my agreement and I use it.
PN640
Can I take you to paragraph 11 of your statement where you give some context about the circumstances in which you started donating blood, I think it's 10 years ago?‑‑‑Right.
PN641
When you first started donating blood, were you a therapeutic donor then?‑‑‑No, I wasn't.
PN642
When you first started donating blood, were you employed?‑‑‑Yes, I was.
PN643
Who was your employer at that time?‑‑‑Target Australia.
*** DEBORAH ANN ALLEN XXN MS BHATT
PN644
If I can take you to paragraph 19, you refer there to your family carer responsibilities. You have mentioned them earlier and I just want to understand a little bit more about that. You say there that you look after your five grandchildren regularly. Do you look after them every week?‑‑‑Yes, I do.
PN645
How old are they?‑‑‑The youngest is eight months old and the eldest is seven.
PN646
You are not their primary carer, though, are you?‑‑‑No, I'm not.
PN647
I take it that you look after them in order to assist - I assume it's your children?‑‑‑Yes.
PN648
Thank you, I have no further questions?‑‑‑Thank you.
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Roucek?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUCEK [12.27 PM]
PN650
MR ROUCEK: Hello, Ms Allen, my name is Michael Roucek and I'm a lawyer from Australian Business Lawyers. Our clients are Australian Business Industrial and the New South Wales Business Chamber. You work at Target in Erina on the Central Coast of New South Wales?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN651
How long have you worked there for?‑‑‑Twenty-seven years.
PN652
Which section of the store do you work in?‑‑‑I am customer liaison and a supervisor.
PN653
Those responsibilities, what do they entail?‑‑‑Looking after the front end and customer liaising at the front door with customers.
PN654
How many employees work in your section?‑‑‑About 30.
PN655
On shift, how many employees are employed to work in your section?‑‑‑About 11.
*** DEBORAH ANN ALLEN XXN MR ROUCEK
PN656
When you are using the entitlement to donate blood, are you aware of what happens during your absence? Do you know how that's covered?‑‑‑Yes, I do because we have a crossover, so I usually donate blood on my way to work because the mobile is five minutes from home, so it's only - I don't use it very often, but when I have to, probably about a half an hour to an hour overlap, which coincides with my offsider.
PN657
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Allen, as a therapeutic donor, how often do you have to donate?‑‑‑Every three months. Sometimes it can be more, depending on the iron levels.
PN658
COMMISSIONER SPENCER: Did you only become aware - it's a genetic condition?‑‑‑It is genetic, yes.
PN659
You became aware of that 10 years ago, did you?‑‑‑Yes.
PN660
Just a random blood test, was it?‑‑‑My sister was diagnosed with it and so we were all advised to go and be tested.
PN661
MR ROUCEK: You don't currently work Mondays or Tuesdays; is that right?‑‑‑That's correct.
PN662
On each of those days, do you have responsibilities to look after your grandchildren?‑‑‑Yes, I do.
PN663
Thank you very much?‑‑‑Okay, thank you.
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Wellard?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WELLARD [12.30 PM]
PN665
MS WELLARD: Ms Allen, my name is Sharleen Wellard and I represent the Pharmacy Guild of Australia. Have you ever worked in a pharmacy?‑‑‑No, but my sister-in-law does.
PN666
Is your employer, your employer Target, aware of your condition that makes you a therapeutic donor?‑‑‑He's very aware of that. His father also has haemotomachrosis.
*** DEBORAH ANN ALLEN XXN MS WELLARD
PN667
Ms Allen, you say you donate blood, at paragraph 12 of your statement, because you consider it to be a worthwhile community service. Are there any other worthwhile community services in which you would participate if the Target Enterprise Agreement had paid leave in it to enable you to do so?‑‑‑Certainly, depending on what it was, yes, I agree.
PN668
I have no further questions.
PN669
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you. Ms Imbriano, do you have any questions?
PN670
MS IMBRIANO: No, your Honour.
PN671
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination, Mr Moretta?
MR MORETTA: Yes, your Honour.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MORETTA [12.31 PM]
PN673
MR MORETTA: Mauro Moretta from the SDA?‑‑‑Hello.
PN674
You explained when you donate blood and it is known in advance, so at the time that you are absent from work for that short absence, you know that you would be covered by sufficient staff?‑‑‑Definitely.
PN675
Are you aware if there's any extra staff that's required to be engaged while you are absent? Is there any extra staff that's required?‑‑‑No, no.
PN676
When you do arrive at work, you manage to complete all the tasks that you're required to do for that shift, even for that short absence?‑‑‑All my - I make sure that it's all done, yes.
PN677
It's all done?‑‑‑Yes. No one has to do the pick-up, no.
PN678
Thank you?‑‑‑You're welcome.
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No further questions? Ms Allen, you are excused and you are free to go?‑‑‑Thank you.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.32 PM]
*** DEBORAH ANN ALLEN RXN MR MORETTA
PN680
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Moretta, I understand the rest of the witnesses are not required for cross-examination.
PN681
MR MORETTA: That's correct, your Honour.
PN682
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So I can proceed to start marking those affidavits now?
PN683
MR MORETTA: Yes.
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. The affidavit of Nicole Joy Elmer affirmed on 13 April 2017 will be marked exhibit 8.
EXHIBIT #8 AFFIDAVIT OF NICOLE JOY ELMER AFFIRMED ON 13/04/2017
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The affidavit of Julie Kay Dingeldei - I hope I have pronounced that correctly - affirmed on 14 April 2017 will be marked exhibit 9.
EXHIBIT #9 AFFIDAVIT OF JULIE KAY DINGELDEI AFFIRMED ON 14/04/2017
PN686
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The affidavit of Jodie Ann Ewins - - -
PN687
MS BHATT: Vice President, I'm sorry, before that statement is marked, I think there's a procedural issue that needs to be attended to.
PN688
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: About this affidavit, is it?
PN689
MR MORETTA: Yes, your Honour.
PN690
MS BHATT: Yes.
PN691
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, what is it, thank you?
PN692
MR MORETTA: We withdraw that statement.
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, I won't mark that. That's easy. All right. The affidavit of Michael Patrick Driscoll affirmed on 10 April 2017 will be marked exhibit 10.
EXHIBIT #10 AFFIDAVIT OF MICHAEL PATRICK DRISCOLL AFFIRMED ON 10/04/2017
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The affidavit of Michael David McErlane affirmed on 16 April 2017 will be marked exhibit 11.
EXHIBIT #11 AFFIDAVIT OF MICHAEL DAVID McERLANE AFFIRMED ON 16/04/2017
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The affidavit of Adru Gilson affirmed on 13 April 2017 will be marked exhibit 12.
EXHIBIT #12 AFFIDAVIT OF ADRU GILSON AFFIRMED ON 13/04/2017
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The affidavit of Raelene Patricia Robertson affirmed on 18 April 2017 will be marked exhibit 13.
EXHIBIT #13 AFFIDAVIT OF RAELENE PATRICIA ROBERTSON AFFIRMED ON 18/04/2017
PN697
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The last affidavit is unsigned or unsworn. Do you have a signed copy, Mr Moretta?
PN698
MR MORETTA: Yes, your Honour. We do have but - - -
PN699
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Unless there is any objection, I will mark it now and I will just leave it for you to provide my associate with a signed copy over the luncheon adjournment.
PN700
MR MORETTA: Thank you, your Honour.
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The affidavit of Joanne Nowland will be marked exhibit 14.
EXHIBIT #14 AFFIDAVIT OF JOANNE NOWLAND
PN702
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that all the evidence in your case, Mr Moretta?
PN703
MR MORETTA: The witness evidence, Your Honour.
PN704
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What else is there?
PN705
MR MORETTA: Your Honour, I might be guided by Your Honour. In terms of the written submissions and the other evidence attached to those written submissions which we would like to tender as evidence, is that - I wonder if you could assist?
PN706
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Let me just find all that.
PN707
MR MORETTA: Your Honour, I can provide you - - -
PN708
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, no, it's all right. These are the various documents marked as annexures to the written submission of 2 May 2017; is that right?
PN709
MR MORETTA: That's correct.
PN710
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is there any objection to the Commission simply receiving those documents as part of the submission?
PN711
MS BHATT: I have no opposition to that course. If they are to be marked as exhibits for administrative ease, I don't oppose that course either, but, of course, these documents are not in evidence.
PN712
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What is the point being made about them? Is there any dispute that the documents are what they purport to be? The value of their content is a different question, but most of them seem to be awards and agreements. There is one section of newspaper articles.
PN713
MR MORETTA: Yes.
PN714
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is there any dispute that they are what they purport to be?
PN715
MS BHATT: No.
PN716
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, I think I will just treat them as part of the submission, Mr Moretta.
PN717
MR MORETTA: Yes.
PN718
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that all of them?
PN719
MR MORETTA: Then there is also the reply submission as well.
PN720
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is there any reason why I shouldn't take the same approach?
PN721
MR MORETTA: No reason at all, your Honour. There are two attachments to that.
PN722
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, I will treat them as part of the submission. So that is all your evidence?
PN723
MR MORETTA: Yes.
PN724
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is there any other evidence?
PN725
MS BHATT: No, Vice President.
PN726
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Are you ready to proceed with submissions at 2 pm or do the parties wish to take some different course?
PN727
MR MORETTA: Your Honour, if it's possible, I would just like to - if we could have a bit more time than 2 pm in order to go through this morning's - if that's okay?
PN728
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: If we start at 10 am tomorrow morning, will we finish all the submissions tomorrow?
PN729
MR MORETTA: I believe we can, I believe we can. My submissions won't go - at most - one hour at most and that's probably being - - -
PN730
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Does any other party take a different view that we should simply proceed with the closing submissions from 10 am tomorrow?
PN731
MS BHATT: I don't have any difficulty with that course. We are keen, and I am sure the Commission is, too, to conclude these proceedings tomorrow. I don't have any indication from the other employer representatives as to how long they might be. One other proposition, and I am, of course, in the Commission's hands, is whether we commence a little bit earlier tomorrow in order to ensure that we can finish the submissions. For my part, I believe I will take about half an hour in making closing submissions.
PN732
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Roucek, how long do you think you will be?
PN733
MR ROUCEK: Approximately half an hour, Vice President.
PN734
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think I have heard enough to suggest that if we start at 10 am, we should finish comfortably within the day.
PN735
COMMISSIONER SPENCER: We had better ask Ms Willard.
PN736
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Unless Ms Willard has got something out of all proportion to everyone else?
PN737
MS WELLARD: I don't anticipate anything out of all proportion, your Honour. We will be less than half an hour, I imagine.
PN738
VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think we will start at 10 am tomorrow to hear the closing submissions. If, for some reason, it goes over time, we will sit until they finish and we will vacate the hearing date on 19 July.
PN739
We will now adjourn for the day and we will resume at 10 am tomorrow morning.
ADJOURNED UNTIL TUESDAY, 18 JULY 2017 [12.41 PM]
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs
EMANUELA MAREE CARUSO, AFFIRMED............................................... PN118
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER............... PN118
EXHIBIT #1 AFFIDAVIT OF EMANUELA MAREE CARUSO AFFIRMED ON 20/04/2017................................................................................................................................. PN122
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT....................................................... PN127
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WELLARD................................................ PN156
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS IMBRIANO................................................ PN173
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MORETTA........................................................ PN206
THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN212
STACEY JULIE HUNTER, AFFIRMED......................................................... PN230
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER............... PN230
EXHIBIT #2 AFFIDAVIT OF STACEY JULIE HUNTER AFFIRMED ON 24/04/2017 PN234
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT....................................................... PN237
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUCEK................................................... PN274
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WELLARD................................................ PN294
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MORETTA........................................................ PN319
THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN328
TREVOR ANTHONY ZYLSTRA, AFFIRMED.............................................. PN336
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER............... PN336
EXHIBIT #3 AFFIDAVIT OF TREVOR ANTHONY ZYLSTRA AFFIRMED ON 13/04/2017................................................................................................................................. PN341
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT....................................................... PN344
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUCEK................................................... PN370
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WELLARD................................................ PN388
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS IMBRIANO................................................ PN414
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MORETTA........................................................ PN421
THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN432
GLENN MICHAEL SMITH, SWORN.............................................................. PN439
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER............... PN439
EXHIBIT #4 AFFIDAVIT OF GLENN MICHAEL SMITH AFFIRMED ON 12/04/2017 PN445
EXHIBIT #5 SUPPLEMENTARY STATEMENT OF GLENN MICHAEL SMITH DATED 11/07/2017............................................................................................................... PN448
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT....................................................... PN450
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WELLARD................................................ PN478
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS IMBRIANO................................................ PN486
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MORETTA........................................................ PN493
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WELLARD........................... PN505
FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MORETTA................................... PN512
THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN525
DALE ALICE ALLEN, AFFIRMED................................................................. PN541
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER............... PN541
EXHIBIT #6 AFFIDAVIT OF DALE ALICE ALLEN AFFIRMED ON 21/04/2017 PN550
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT....................................................... PN553
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUCEK................................................... PN572
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WELLARD................................................ PN591
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MORETTA........................................................ PN604
THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN616
DEBORAH ANN ALLEN, SWORN.................................................................. PN620
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER............... PN620
EXHIBIT #7 AFFIDAVIT OF DEBORAH ANN ALLEN AFFIRMED ON 20/04/2017 PN626
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BHATT....................................................... PN627
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUCEK................................................... PN649
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WELLARD................................................ PN664
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MORETTA........................................................ PN672
THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN679
EXHIBIT #8 AFFIDAVIT OF NICOLE JOY ELMER AFFIRMED ON 13/04/2017 PN684
EXHIBIT #9 AFFIDAVIT OF JULIE KAY DINGELDEI AFFIRMED ON 14/04/2017 PN685
EXHIBIT #10 AFFIDAVIT OF MICHAEL PATRICK DRISCOLL AFFIRMED ON 10/04/2017................................................................................................................................. PN693
EXHIBIT #11 AFFIDAVIT OF MICHAEL DAVID MCERLANE AFFIRMED ON 16/04/2017................................................................................................................................. PN694
EXHIBIT #12 AFFIDAVIT OF ADRU GILSON AFFIRMED ON 13/04/2017 PN695
EXHIBIT #13 AFFIDAVIT OF RAELENE PATRICIA ROBERTSON AFFIRMED ON 18/04/2017............................................................................................................... PN696
EXHIBIT #14 AFFIDAVIT OF JOANNE NOWLAND.................................. PN701