PN2772

MR K SCOTT: Your Honour, if I can just lead off with a couple of procedural issues. You'll perhaps be unsurprised but pleased to hear that the schedule has changed for today and it's changed in the case of Mr Encabo who there was some discussions yesterday about objections. They've been resolved and so he's not required for cross-examination.

PN2773

JUSTICE ROSS: If you can at some point file just a - or if the ASU files a note indicating which parts of the statement are not read or whatever the outcome is of the process between the parties.

PN2774

SPEAKER: Yes, sir.

PN2775

MR SCOTT: In respect of that, I have a note, and I believe your Honours have a copy of this, a schedule of ABI evidence not read.

PN2776

JUSTICE ROSS: This is in relation to - - -

PN2777

MR SCOTT: To the five - - -

PN2778

JUSTICE ROSS: - - - Graham Shanahan, Deb Ryan, Scott Harvey, Wendy Mason and Joyce Wang, yes?

PN2779

MR SCOTT: That's right, so they're the five ABI witnesses for today and that sets out the matters upon which we do not read in their statement.

PN2780

JUSTICE ROSS: Does that resolve the issues in relation to those witnesses?

PN2781

MR SCOTT: No, it doesn't. It resolves most of them but there are still some objections, as I understand it, in relation to most of, if not all, those - I should say most of those statements.

PN2782

JUSTICE ROSS: All right. Well, I'll mark that document ABI4.

EXHIBIT #ABI4 PARTS OF STATEMENTS NOT READ

PN2783

Okay.

PN2784

MR SCOTT: Your Honour, can I just indicate, earlier in the week you raised a issue in relation to two of our witness statements and a request to see whether we could get some further information. It was around broken shifts and the breakdown of employees by category. We've made inquiries for both those witnesses. We haven't heard and we haven't received any information from one. The other witness has provided some information but it's hardly significant and it's more by way of clarification rather than anything else. I've indicated what the information is to Ms Doust and unless your Honour has any issue with the proposal, my proposal is that I just clarify those matters in-chief because I don't have a document have to tender through them.

PN2785

JUSTICE ROSS: All right. Ms Doust, you content with that?

PN2786

MS DOUST: Yes, I've seen the matters in the email and I'm content for him to deal with the matter in that way, but for the HSU's part - - -

PN2787

JUSTICE ROSS: If I've got any questions I'll ask them of the witnesses as they come up.

PN2788

MR SCOTT: As the Commission pleases.

PN2789

JUSTICE ROSS: Do you want to deal with the remaining objections in relation to Shanahan? Shanahan's the first witness?

PN2790

MR SCOTT: Yes, he is, your Honour.

PN2791

JUSTICE ROSS: What are the remaining other - are there any remaining objections to the witness statement of Shanahan?

PN2792

MS DOUST: Your Honour, and I can't recall where we left it the other day, but in relation to Mr Shanahan you'll recall, it's paragraph 20 which was about the report of client cancellations and the reasons and there's an averment that what is at (a) is the reports.

PN2793

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN2794

MS DOUST: Which - well to my eye clearly doesn't appear to be the reports but I think my friend sought some leave. We've not been provided with any detail, the original reports or anything of that nature, so it's very difficult for us to deal with it.

PN2795

JUSTICE ROSS: Sure. Is that the issue, para 20?

PN2796

MR SCOTT: That is the issue, yes, and I guess my difficulty, your Honour, is I just don't know what the report is, whether the statement is perhaps inaccurate in terms of it is the original report but the statement suggests otherwise or that there are other reports and the report that's been provided is not the report referred to in the same - I just don't know and my proposal was to clarify that with the witness but I'm largely in your Honour's hands.

PN2797

JUSTICE ROSS: All right. The course we're going to adopt is this, we don't propose to exclude para 20 or attachment A. On the submissions that have been made, our present view is we would agree with Ms Doust though that it doesn't seem to relate and we would not propose to, as presently advised, to give any weight to it because it doesn't disclose how it got there. We don't think it's a satisfactory method for the witness then to be asked to elaborate and explain at this stage in the proceedings. We think that would operate an unfairness on the other parties as well, so we'd leave it in there and Ms Doust, if she wishes, can ask questions in cross-examination about it but that would be it and you could certainly make submissions directed at well what are we to make of it. At the moment we don't know and it certainly doesn't explain how you arrive at the numbers. All right. Anything else?

PN2798

MS DOUST: Do you mean other paragraphs?

PN2799

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN2800

MS DOUST: Yes.

PN2801

JUSTICE ROSS: Are there any other objections to - - -

PN2802

MS DOUST: There are, your Honour. Can I take your Honour to paragraph 26. You'll see there the witness has a view that if the company was required to pay the employee for a full rostered shift and so on, the company would become insolvent. Well, we've sought material from ABI in the way of financial reports but also in particular in relation to this witness who also hazards an opinion at paragraph 40 about this financial strain on the business, of the underlying modelling or calculations that were used to provide support for that conclusion and we've not received anything in relation to those requests to provide a basis, as it were, for the expression and opinion there, so that's the basis of our objection there. It's opinion, there's no disclosure of the factual basis in any way, no bold assertion as to amounts, no underlying material to quantify the amounts.

PN2803

JUSTICE ROSS: All right.

PN2804

MR SCOTT: Well, I accept the submissions of my friend. The only thing I'd note by way of submission is that Mr Shanahan seems to have 20 years experience in the accounting profession so it may be that he's in a position to provide some further clarity but I accept that he had the opportunity in his statement, he didn't do it, so.

PN2805

JUSTICE ROSS: We too accept the substance of the argument advanced by Ms Doust that the basis of the assertion's not explained. For that reason, we would attach very little weight to the evidence but we don't propose to exclude it.

PN2806

MS DOUST: Your Honours, my friend has indicated his agreement not to read either the second sentence of paragraph 27 or paragraphs 31 and 32 and the next objection then is the first sentence of - - -

PN2807

JUSTICE ROSS: Are you dealing with all of your objections? I thought that's what you did the last time. We're not to rule on them one at a time, that's all.

PN2808

MS DOUST: I'm sorry.

PN2809

JUSTICE ROSS: Is this your last objection.

PN2810

MS DOUST: No.

PN2811

JUSTICE ROSS: All right. We'll deal with all of them.

PN2812

MS DOUST: Paragraph 27, my friend's agreed not to read the second sentence.

PN2813

JUSTICE ROSS: No, I follow what he hasn't agreed to. I want to know what you object to that's left.

PN2814

MS DOUST: Sorry, sorry. The further objections, paragraph 34, the first sentence. We say that's just speculation but it's probably a matter that we can deal in submission.

PN2815

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes. Well, he doesn't say that the clients have given him any indication to that effect or anything of that nature, so.

PN2816

MS DOUST: The next issue is paragraph 39.

PN2817

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN2818

MS DOUST: Many clients demand certain employees and threaten to leave if they do not have that particular employee. That's hearsay, we say, and conclusion. He hasn't sort of identified the circumstances or the level of incidents or anything of that nature.

PN2819

JUSTICE ROSS: Sure. That's a matter for weight and submissions.

PN2820

MS DOUST: Thank you, and paragraph 40. My friend has agreed not to read the second sentence.

PN2821

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes, you've just - you alluded to this one earlier.

PN2822

MS DOUST: Yes.

PN2823

JUSTICE ROSS: That was the one we ruled on earlier.

PN2824

MS DOUST: Thank you, your Honour. I just - - -

PN2825

JUSTICE ROSS: No, no, I was doing both because you were making the same point in relation to 40.

PN2826

MS DOUST: No, no, I appreciate that. Thank you, your Honour.

PN2827

JUSTICE ROSS: All right. That deals with that?

PN2828

MS DOUST: Yes, it does for Mr Shanahan.

PN2829

JUSTICE ROSS: Nobody else? No? All right.

PN2830

MR SCOTT: Call Mr Shanahan.

PN2831

JUSTICE ROSS: Are there documents that you want to put to him, Ms Doust?

PN2832

MS DOUST: Yes, they were sent by - - -

PN2833

JUSTICE ROSS: No, no, that's fine, I've got them. I just wanted - yes.

PN2834

MS DOUST: All right, yes. I also have multiple copies if the Bench needs any more.

PN2835

JUSTICE ROSS: No, we're good, thanks.

<GRAHAM JOSEPH SHANAHAN, AFFIRMED [9.51 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCOTT [9.52 AM]

PN2836

MR SCOTT: Mr Shanahan, can you hear me okay?‑‑‑Yes. I just turn it up a small bit on my end. Yes, I can hear you.

PN2837

Great. My name's Kyle Scott. I'm a representative of four employer associations and I understand that you've given a statement to my colleague, Ms Tiedeman, in these proceedings?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN2838

You have a copy of that in front of you now?‑‑‑I do. I do, indeed, yes.

PN2839

Can you confirm that that statement is 40 paragraphs long?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN2840

Can you confirm that that statement is true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2841

Thank you. I tender that, your Honour.

PN2842

JUSTICE ROSS: Mark that statement exhibit ABI5, noting that it's to be read in conjunction with the exhibit ABI4.

EXHIBIT #ABI5 STATEMENT OF GRAHAM SHANAHAN - TO BE READ IN CONJUNCTION WITH ABI4

PN2843

*** GRAHAM JOSEPH SHANAHAN XN MR SCOTT

*** GRAHAM JOSEPH SHANAHAN XXN MS DOUST

Yes, okay.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DOUST [9.53 AM]

PN2844

MS DOUST: Thank you. Mr Shanahan, can you hear me okay?‑‑‑Yes, I can, yes.

PN2845

If I just ask you as to your statement, in paragraph 10 you refer to the local government areas that you operate in?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN2846

Do you have that paragraph in front of you?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct. I've got it.

PN2847

The company works throughout the Coffs Harbour, Bellingen and Nambucca local government areas?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN2848

Just to give some sort of dimension to that, do you agree with me from the northern most point of the Coffs Harbour local government area to the southern most point of the Nambucca shire is about 120 kilometres along the coast?‑‑‑Off the top of my head, I wouldn't be 100 per cent. All I know is it goes north up past Woolgoolga and it goes south down as far as Scotts Head and the Bellingen shire then can stretch up to Dorrigo, we've got clients up in Dorrigo, so it's quite a big demographic but I couldn't say the actual total kilometre distance.

PN2849

The Bellingen shire stretches out west about 90 kilometres from Coffs Harbour. Do you agree with that?‑‑‑I think so. I think it goes up as far - we go up as far as Deer Vale which is about 40 minutes beyond Dorrigo South so that's as far as we go there and then we go south of Macksville down to Bowraville and Scotts Head and north, of course, we go up as far as Red Rock which is just above Woolgoolga.

PN2850

Just one last point about the geography of the region, in between Coffs Harbour and Dorrigo you're driving up a range on a very windy road with a lot of hairpin turns. Do you accept that characterisation of the driving there?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN2851

A lot of that road, as you go up the range, is speed limited to 60 kilometres or less?‑‑‑Yes, and there's roadworks and there can be different issues. Like recently, there was fires up there so different issues that we had to encounter but, yes, it can be difficult.

PN2852

All right. Can I just ask you now about paragraph 19 of your statement where you refer to the collective agreement from 2009 to 2011?‑‑‑Yes.

*** GRAHAM JOSEPH SHANAHAN XXN MS DOUST

PN2853

Has the company engaged in any further enterprise bargaining since the making of that agreement?‑‑‑No, we haven't. We just - that agreement is still in place but we applied the SCHADS award in terms of the rates of pay and entitlements and so forth and the collective agreement kind of sits in the background, if that makes sense.

PN2854

All right. Does that still continue to govern some terms of employment?‑‑‑I'm just trying to think off the top of my head. It does. It does, yes.

PN2855

Right. When you say in your paragraph 19 that the company typically pays awards rates of pay, are there some instances where you're saying you don't?‑‑‑No. In some instances we pay additional, so the minimum we pay is the social - the SCHADS award rates and in addition to that we might pay additional. For example, we pay certain allowances for travel if a worker was going beyond the means of - for example, going to Dorrigo, we pay more for that and incur that cost to ensure that a service is provided to the client because the client is the most important thing to us.

PN2856

Do you have in front of you a document which has got a heading in it Position Community Support Worker Permanent Part-Time?‑‑‑I do. I do, yes. The draft template, yes, yes.

PN2857

I'll just hand copies of that document. Do the Bench have copies of that copy? This one?

PN2858

JUSTICE ROSS: We do?‑‑‑Okay.

PN2859

MS DOUST: If anyone needs a copy there's plenty here. You're familiar with that document, are you, Mr Shanahan?‑‑‑I am to the best of my knowledge. We've a HR department that deals with these contracts and these offers so I would have a good understanding of this but it's not my area as such, per se.

PN2860

All right. But you recognise it as the pro forma, if you like - - -?‑‑‑Yes, correct.

PN2861

- - - of the contracts that you offer to your part-time home care workers?‑‑‑That's correct, yes, yes, I do recognise, yes.

PN2862

It's a standard requirement in the contract, isn't it, that the employee uses their own vehicle in order to perform their work?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

*** GRAHAM JOSEPH SHANAHAN XXN MS DOUST

PN2863

Thank you. I tender that.

PN2864

JUSTICE ROSS: Make that exhibit HSU11.

EXHIBIT #HSU11 HSS PART TIME CONTRACT

PN2865

MS DOUST: Thank you. Mr Shanahan, the employees, the home care workers that you use, are they required to report in to your premises every day?‑‑‑They do, they do. We've got a central office and they do communicate either by text message or a phone call or we've got an internal messaging system on our rostering platform, to confirm that they're visiting, doing the visits and that everything is okay from their point of view.

PN2866

All right, so they report in electronically but not physically in person?‑‑‑No, they don't come into the office to start the day, no. They go to the clients directly from their home.

PN2867

Yes, and in order for your organisation to give them directions or important information during the course of the day, they need to be contactable, don't they?‑‑‑They do, yes.

PN2868

Your organisation communicates directions and important information to them, what, by telephone, by text message or call, is that right?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN2869

Does it also use email?‑‑‑Sorry, say that again?

PN2870

I'm sorry, I'll speak more slowly. Do you also keep in contact with those employees by email?‑‑‑Probably not during the course of a working day. Mainly phone call or text message or, as I said, the rostering system. Email probably more after work hours, like sending out an email of the rosters for the following day if there's an issue.

PN2871

All right, and with the workers another reason they might need to use a telephone in the course of the day is to call ahead to clients if they've been held up for any reason?‑‑‑No, we don't encourage that. What we ask them to do is to text the office to say that they're running late and we contact the client on their behalf.

*** GRAHAM JOSEPH SHANAHAN XXN MS DOUST

PN2872

All right, and if anything occurs obviously with the client that's unexpected during the course of the appointment they might need to call back to the office or call in someone else for assistance. Do you agree with that?‑‑‑Yes, that would happen, yes.

PN2873

Pardon me. Mr Shanahan, I don't think you mention in your statement anything about the minimum shift length of your workers. Have I missed something?‑‑‑In my statement?

PN2874

Yes?‑‑‑We - our minimum shift is two, two hours.

PN2875

Is that something that's in this agreement?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN2876

Can I ask you is that a period that can be broken during the course of the day?‑‑‑I'd have to delve into that myself. Off the top of my head, I think it can be broken. I think we can do an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening.

PN2877

Yes, and is there any - - -?‑‑‑But I'd have to - - -

PN2878

I'm sorry? I just missed what - - -?‑‑‑Well, I'd have to confirm that, sorry, because as I say I haven't got the agreement in front of me at the moment, sorry.

PN2879

Sure, and can there be more than one break during the course of a day?‑‑‑There can. Unfortunately, there can for different unforeseen circumstances. Like we'd love ‑ what we try and do here is, I suppose just give a bit of background, we've broken up our teams into different areas to cut down in travel time and not requesting someone to drive from Coffs up to Dorrigo when we've got workers living in Bellingen already and also we try to do different periods of time during the day. Like some workers work from the 7.00 to 2.00 in the afternoon shift and others then work from a certain different timeframe during the day to give them bigger blocks of time to work through. But having said that, there is workers that will work in the morning. They work between 7.00 to 10.00 in the morning with the big personal care, med (indistinct) which is a big part of the home care service deliverables. Certain workers will not carry out domestic assistance duties which normally take place after that timeframe and then the afternoon shift will kick in again from about half 3.00 to about 7.00 where we're getting the evening visits for medications, meal prep, prep for bed and so forth and workers, because of the nature of the industry, they want to work, they want to get paid so they're willing to work that morning shift and that evening shift.

PN2880

All right, Mr Shanahan, so does that - - -?‑‑‑If that makes sense.

*** GRAHAM JOSEPH SHANAHAN XXN MS DOUST

PN2881

I'm sorry, please finish your answer to the question if ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Yes, I just said if that makes sense. It's just that there's certain circumstances can actually throw someone's work shift out of whack for the day which the unpredictability of someone going into hospital, someone getting sick and that would cause that split in shift as well. Like we might have a worker rostered from 7 o'clock in the morning until 2 o'clock but in the middle of that day, for two hours, someone went into hospital, we have got no other client to fill that gap so they have got a two hour block of time that's free as such which is a break for them to go back out again to do the remaining visits up to that 2 o'clock finishing time.

PN2882

All right, Mr Shanahan, I was just asking you about the number of breaks in the shift that might occur during the course of the day and I just wanted to ask you whether or not there are occasions when the workers will have more than one break in the shift during the course of the day?‑‑‑Well, as I just said, in that scenario there would be because of - they would have two hour break because of a client going into hospital would cause that break and then if the worker had a meal break on top of that then that will have caused another break. If - because of the unpredictability of - that we won't know that someone's going to go into hospital today and that break is not in, but if they do then there's a two hour gap. They're already probably booked in for a break from half 12.00 to 1 o'clock as a meal break so they have two breaks.

PN2883

All right. Mr Shanahan, are you the person - I take it you're not the person within the organisation responsible for the allocation of work and rosters?‑‑‑That's correct. We have a rostering department, yes.

PN2884

Are you able to say whether your rostering department operates allocating people to a number of shifts, more than ‑ having more than one break in the shift during the course of the day?‑‑‑Say that again, sorry.

*** GRAHAM JOSEPH SHANAHAN XXN MS DOUST

PN2885

Do you know whether your rostering department allocates works on the basis that there is more than one break to the shift in the course of the day?‑‑‑Yes, they would try and replace the visits if there is more than one break during the day. They would do their utmost to fill them gaps. That's - I know that does happen but you've got different scenarios, again, of - and probably our biggest challenge in the industry is client's and consumer's expectation and demands. They always demand certain client - certain staff members at certain times and they normally refuse and that's another difficulty. It's not just simply going a certain worker - a client goes into hospital, there's a two hour gap, we've got another client, let's put that worker with some work with client A into client B. You ring client B and client B says 'No, because I just want Mary to come every week', so you've got that problem as well and because under the home care package environment and the consumer directed care philosophy really being pushed by the government and the department, the client and the consumer is a centre focus and their choice is paramount now so there's a more of an emphasis on that than ever before and that puts that solution sometimes into - it doesn't allow us to fix the problem.

PN2886

Thank you, Mr Shanahan. Can I just ask you about the worker's use of the vehicle?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2887

Are you workers paid a vehicle allowance for the use of their vehicle to undertake travel?‑‑‑Yes, they're paid the normal rate of pay as if they were working with the client, so they get paid the same rate of pay, there's no difference between the rate of pay for that, and they also get the kilometre allowance under the SCHADS award as well, so they get two rates of pay for using their vehicle.

PN2888

All right. Well, can I just ask, are workers paid for the trip that they undertake at the start of the day to travel to the home of their client?‑‑‑Except for their first job and their job. Their first job is going to work and their last job is - going from their last job to home is going home.

PN2889

Do I take it from that - - -?‑‑‑The same ruling as - - -

PN2890

Do I take if from that that on the trip that the worker undertakes in the morning to see their first client they're neither paid wages for the time that they spend travelling nor any kilometre allowance in respect of the use of their vehicle for that travel? Is that right?‑‑‑That's correct but what we do here is we try and - as we broke the teams into different areas, we minimise that travel so like people - we've got areas where they normally only travel maybe five minutes to their first job and then from thereon in they get clocked the kilometres and their travel time and they're (indistinct) and where there's circumstances where we have to call a worker in in extraordinary circumstances, then we pay that worker an allowance to compensate them for that first job of the day or their last job of the day. Like for example, we had a worker we had to send to Dorrigo yesterday and we paid her travel to go to Dorrigo and we also paid her allowance to come back in to Coffs afterwards, so it is flexible.

PN2891

Right. Just going to paragraph 27 of your statement, Mr Shanahan?‑‑‑Yes. Sorry, just one second. Yes, got it. Yes, sorry.

PN2892

All right. This paragraph is under the heading Client Cancellation Issues on the previous page you'll see?‑‑‑Right, yes.

PN2893

I take it there that paragraph 27 is a statement in respect of your arrangements for cancellations?‑‑‑Yes, it is, yes, with cancellations.

*** GRAHAM JOSEPH SHANAHAN XXN MS DOUST

PN2894

All right, and does that include cancellations for clients that are funded under the Commonwealth home support program?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN2895

You've referred at paragraph 28 to Department of Veteran Affairs program having a limit of one hour?‑‑‑That's right.

PN2896

Do you see that?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN2897

Do I take it that you're not limited under the other programs?‑‑‑You're not limited under the Home Care Package Programs but you are limited like, for example, here in regional Australia, in Coffs Harbour, we are limited in terms of sensitivity of charging cancellation fees because, to be honest, a lot of the cancellations happen on the day or just the night before services commence due to a family member going to hospital or someone going into permanent care or sadly they pass away and we have to very - monitor the sensitivity of charging people's packages for this because in this area alone it comes down to the fact of word of mouth and you have to really gauge what - and people are price sensitive up here and especially with the home care packages. They value the funding as their own and their balances as their own, although it's government funding, so that's why we normally are just - maximum we charge is the one hour. Like if there's a four hour service we're not going to charge a four hour fee. We charge an hour and a lot of the time, being totally honest, due to the sensitivity of it we normally waive the cancellation fee and it works for us because we have gained a lot of clients through that approach, I suppose.

PN2898

Thank you. I think you have in front of you a document which has the HSS support branding on the top and underneath that the heading New South Wales Home Support Fees Schedule?‑‑‑Yes, I have this, yes.

PN2899

You have that document in front of you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2900

Can I just ask whether the Bench has that document, thank you?

PN2901

JUSTICE ROSS: We do, thanks.

PN2902

MS DOUST: You have in your table of fees in table two on that page - I'm sorry, can I just ask you, you accept this is a current statement of the fees that your organisation charges to its home care clients?‑‑‑Yes, correct.

*** GRAHAM JOSEPH SHANAHAN XXN MS DOUST

PN2903

If we just go to the second table, one of the aspects of your organisation's billing is that you charge an exit fee of $250?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN2904

Does that operate as - - -?‑‑‑For home care packages.

PN2905

I'm sorry?‑‑‑Just for home care packages.

PN2906

Home care packages, yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2907

Does that operate a disincentive for clients to leave the organisation lightly?‑‑‑No. Basically, what has to do is to cover - there's quite a lot of administration involved in calculating an exit fee. It's probably - could be (indistinct) between two and three hours of work. However, we anecdotally since 2017 have only ‑ possibly only about four or five clients have left our organisation to go to other providers, mainly due to the fact of moving location, like moving to Sydney or Melbourne or so forth, and in those circumstances we waive the exit fees due to allowing more fees and funding available for further service but that's an exit fee we put there in place to cover our own potential costs. Like if someone goes into residential care, allows us time, there is more paperwork involved, we will have to cover our costs and that's where that - why that fee is listed. Under schedule of fees, we promote a very flexible negotiation with clients. Table one is probably - is the only fee structure that's not negotiable but pretty much everything down - - -

PN2908

Mr - - -?‑‑‑Sorry?

PN2909

I might - I'm going to take you through the schedule if you'll just bear with me, Mr Shanahan?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2910

Is this is a fair summary of your organisation's approach to its business that it seeks to attract clients on the basis of having a low basic hourly rate for week days and Saturdays? Is that a fair description?‑‑‑No, it's not. It's not in this area. In Coffs Harbour there is a few ‑ another few organisations actually cheaper than us in terms of the hourly rate.

PN2911

Cheaper than 49.50 for a week day one hour attendance?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2912

Who do you say that is?‑‑‑Sorry?

*** GRAHAM JOSEPH SHANAHAN XXN MS DOUST

PN2913

Which organisation do you say is cheaper than that?‑‑‑I know Community Care Options are cheaper than that. I know Link to Life are cheaper than that. I know Australian ‑ ‑ ‑

PN2914

How much cheaper do you say they are?‑‑‑Might be a dollar. Might be - I can't say from the top of my head but I do ‑ there is a few other providers out there that have cheaper rates.

PN2915

Well Community Care Options you think is maybe a dollar cheaper, is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2916

Any other organisation you think is more than $1 cheaper per hour?‑‑‑More than $1? Not sure. I know Link to Life are cheaper on the last time I looked but I think Australian Unity were pretty low as well but I think, to be honest, I think we are quite low in our pricing but it is quite reasonable at the same token and it is consistent to what we were doing in the last few years. We only increased our fee structure in line with the increases with the subsidy which was only 2.3 per cent over the last three years. We have kept in line with the subsidy increase to be fair to the actual consumer so their actual (indistinct) was not affected.

PN2917

Mr Shanahan, you're familiar, aren't you, that a lot of providers in the area are charging more than 49.50 for a one hour attendance during week days, aren't you?‑‑‑I am, yes.

PN2918

There's a lot of providers out there that are providing that similar attendance for somewhere in the region of 56 or $57 an hour?‑‑‑Yes, but this is only after coming to light since 1 July when the actual publication of the fees was made mandatory by the department on My Aged Care. So up to that point no one really knew, and everybody was second guessing each other, of what the pricing was so it's difficult to ascertain how fair or how realistic it was but as I said from the outset, we've done in the last three years is we kept our pricing in line with the increase in subsidy to be fair to consumer because that's our bottom line, to provide services to the consumer.

PN2919

One point of difference between your organisation and many others is the willingness of your organisation to provide attendances that are less than one hour on a simple pro rata'd rate. That's correct, isn't it?‑‑‑That is correct, yes. That we - - -

*** GRAHAM JOSEPH SHANAHAN XXN MS DOUST

PN2920

You're familiar that other organisations have employed a minimum attendance fee in the event that the attendance sought is half an hour or less?‑‑‑Yes. Some organisations, the larger ones, have done that where they have minimum engagement of one hour or so forth, yes. But I suppose the fly in the ointment here for us is it is not just home care packages. We've got Department of Veteran Affairs as well which is one third of our business and a lot of those services are based on 15 minutes med prompt both morning and evening which makes it even more difficult. We had a client yesterday ring up and - there's not too many DVA providers, in our area there's only really two, us and RSL Care, and the doctor/GP just wants a 15 minute med prompt in the morning and a 15 minute med prompt in the evening. Now we've got a duty of care under the DVA guidelines to meet that - the care needs of that person. If we can't do it then RSL Care will have to try and do it but that's the difficulty that we have and that's the juggle that we have in front of us and that's why we kept the minimum engagement requirement down. Of course, we'd love to have a minimum engagement of one hour to make life easier but it doesn't work like that in this industry across different spheres of programs.

PN2921

Mr Shanahan, you see that there's differences between the rate for a Monday to Friday attendance between 7.00 and 7.00 and the rate outside those times. Outside those times you're charging a 50 per cent loading on top of that rate, aren't you, for Monday to Friday?‑‑‑Yes, and overtime. Yes, 1.5, yes, which is similar to the Saturday rate.

PN2922

Your Saturday, Sunday and public holiday, there's a much greater rate than that hourly rate?‑‑‑Yes. It's basically the Saturday is time and a half, Sunday's double time and public holiday is 2.5.

PN2923

Can I just ask you this, does the structuring of your fees in that way, has that had any impact on when your clients are asking for the delivery of their services?‑‑‑Under the home care packages, it depends on the level. If they're a level one and two, yes, because their funding is less. If it's a level three and four, it probably would still affect them because they could see that having a four hour respite on a Sunday would equate to eight hours of normal service so they would be sensitive to that but they know that from ‑ like they've been dealing with that forever and a day in the home care environment so most clients are already aware of that.

PN2924

Thank you. I tender that.

PN2925

JUSTICE ROSS: Mark that exhibit HSU12.

EXHIBIT #HSU12 NSW HSS FEES

PN2926

MS DOUST: Thank you. I have nothing further for the witness, your Honour.

*** GRAHAM JOSEPH SHANAHAN XXN MS DOUST

PN2927

JUSTICE ROSS: Any other cross-examination?

PN2928

MR BULL: We have no questions for this witness. Nothing.

PN2929

JUSTICE ROSS: Re-examination?

PN2930

MR SCOTT: No, your Honour.

PN2931

JUSTICE ROSS: Thank you for your evidence, Mr Shanahan. You're excused?‑‑‑No problem. Thank you very much.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.23 AM]

PN2932

MR SCOTT: The next witness, your Honour, is Deb Ryan, who I understand is another telephone witness.

PN2933

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN2934

MS DOUST: Yes, but there are some - - -

PN2935

JUSTICE ROSS: Any outstanding issues? Yes.

PN2936

MS DOUST: Yes, there are, your Honour. Your Honour, the objections to paragraph, sorry, 23, I think my friend has agreed not to read that.

PN2937

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes, no, don't - - -

PN2938

MS DOUST: Twenty-four we don't press.

PN2939

JUSTICE ROSS: Don't cover the ones that have been agreed or you're not pressing.

PN2940

MS DOUST: All right.

*** GRAHAM JOSEPH SHANAHAN XXN MS DOUST

PN2941

JUSTICE ROSS: I just want to know what you're pressing that hasn't been discussed or agreed.

PN2942

MS DOUST: Paragraph 28, the second sentence is, we say, opinion or conclusion. It's something I can deal with by way of submission.

PN2943

JUSTICE ROSS: I think so.

PN2944

MS DOUST: I just didn't want it to pass un-noticed, your Honour. No, those are the only matters, your Honour.

PN2945

JUSTICE ROSS: All right. Let's call the witness.

<DEBORAH GAYE RYAN, AFFIRMED [10.26 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCOTT [10.26 AM]

PN2946

MR SCOTT: Ms Ryan, can you hear me okay?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2947

My name's Kyle Scott. I'm a representative on behalf of Australian Business Industrial and I understand that you have given a statement in these proceedings?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN2948

Can you confirm you have a copy of that statement in front of you now?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN2949

Can you confirm that that statement is 79 paragraphs long?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN2950

Can you confirm that that statement is true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

PN2951

Thank you, Ms Ryan. Tender that, your Honour.

PN2952

JUSTICE ROSS: Mark the statement exhibit ABI6. It will be read together with the exhibit ABI4 dealing with those parts of her statements that are not read.

EXHIBIT #ABI6 STATEMENT OF DEB RYAN – TO BE READ IN CONJUNCTION WITH ABI4

*** DEBORAH GAYE RYAN XN MR SCOTT

PN2953

Cross-examination?

PN2954

MS DOUST: Yes.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DOUST [10.27 AM]

PN2955

MS DOUST: Ms Ryan, can I take you to paragraph 24 of your statement to start off?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2956

Where you refer to trialling full-time employees?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2957

Do you also have in front of you there a document which appears to be - it's a table with names of staff members, a column for their years of work - - -?‑‑‑Yes, I have that in front of me.

PN2958

Thank you. Does the Bench have a copy of that document? I have copies available. It's a single page.

PN2959

JUSTICE ROSS: Could you just describe it again.

PN2960

MS DOUST: I'm sorry, it's a single page document - - -

PN2961

JUSTICE ROSS: No, I've got 13 documents and I - - -

PN2962

MS DOUST: It's the single page document. It's a table. On the left hand side is a column with the names of staff members in bold. Immediately to the right of that there's a column with years.

PN2963

JUSTICE ROSS: Some of it's in red?

PN2964

MS DOUST: Yes, some of the text is in red.

PN2965

JUSTICE ROSS: All right.

PN2966

MS DOUST: Yes. Ms Ryan, was this the document recording the organisation's trial of full-time employees?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DEBORAH GAYE RYAN XXN MS DOUST

PN2967

Can I ask you, in that document where there's a reference to total hours worked how were the hours calculated?‑‑‑Okay.

PN2968

What hours were counted?‑‑‑Okay. Our paper, employee for the financial year, number of fortnights worked by - in the financial year by the employee, their base hours, so the number of fortnights by the number of hours per fortnight they were - I'm sorry, no, I'm talking to something else there. I'm sorry about that. That was based on total hours worked inclusive of any overtime paid.

PN2969

All right, and how was an hour of work calculated for an employee? If we just go to the first example of Mr Rozentool for the ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2970

‑ ‑ ‑ 2012/2013 you say the annual target is 1976 hours?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2971

And that equates to 38 hours per week?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2972

In 2012/2013 Mr Rozentool is said to have worked 1936.5 hours?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2973

Is that hours of attendance on clients as a home care worker?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2974

So the hours that are calculated there are the hours that a client could be billed for?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2975

So the ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑So he was under his contract by 39.5 hours.

PN2976

For the year?‑‑‑For the year.

PN2977

The same follows, does it, for all the other workers ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN2978

‑ ‑ ‑on that page that they failed in various instances, so in the instance of Ms Gallagher in 2012/13 she failed to acquit the annual target of billed hours by one?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN2979

Thank you. I tender that.

*** DEBORAH GAYE RYAN XXN MS DOUST

PN2980

JUSTICE ROSS: I'll mark that exhibit HSU13.

EXHIBIT #HSU13 CROSS EXAMINATION OF DEB RYAN: FULL TIME STAFF TRIAL

PN2981

MS DOUST: Just in paragraph 28, Ms Ryan, you say that:

PN2982

Clients have individual budgets. They determine what they will and will not pay for.

PN2983

?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2984

Do you see that reference?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2985

It's the case, isn't it, that most of the money that pays for the provision of services to clients of your organisations is externally funded?‑‑‑Yes, it is, but of course clients are identified as having an individual budget so they actually - and I'm told that they're in control of their budget and their service choices.

PN2986

The services which are to be provided and the costs in respect of those services are set out in service agreements with clients, aren't they?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN2987

And on the whole you have pro forma agreements with your clients, so they're all subject to the same broad terms about the hourly cost and so on; is that correct?‑‑‑Depending on what program they're funded under, yes.

PN2988

So you have program specific pro forma agreements that govern the terms and conditions of provision of services?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2989

Thank you. Just go to paragraph 36 if we might, and you refer there to the requirement to manage individual client budgets?‑‑‑Mm.

PN2990

For home care packages it's the case, isn't it, that you're entitled to charge a fee for the package management for clients in receipt of home care packages?‑‑‑That's correct. We are allowed to charge an administration fee and a case management fee.

PN2991

In fact, it's the case that community care options does charge those fees, charges a case management fee at a rate of $50 an hour?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** DEBORAH GAYE RYAN XXN MS DOUST

PN2992

And what are the package management fees? Are they a fortnightly rate?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2993

So, just think about a level 1 home care package, what's your fortnightly rate for package management there?‑‑‑Okay. Just bear with me for a second. So what level are we talking about?

PN2994

Well, just say level 1, do you have a fortnightly rate for package management?‑‑‑Yes, we do, it's $42.

PN2995

Forty-two a fortnight for those people?‑‑‑Yes.

PN2996

What are the rates - you've got escalating rates, do you, for levels 2, 3 and 4?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN2997

So what's the ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Because they have higher levels of care management.

PN2998

Well, I'm just asking about package management at the moment?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN2999

Did you understand that to be the first question that I asked you, that that was about the package management fees?‑‑‑I'm sorry, I might be looking at the care management fee.

PN3000

Yes. Is this correct, community care options has two different sorts of fees for its home care package clients, a care management fee and a package management fee?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3001

All right. And the $42, was that a care management fee?‑‑‑Sorry, the $42 is a fortnightly cost for package management for a level 1.

PN3002

And for that sort of client what's their fortnightly care management fee?‑‑‑That's just going back up. Yes, $42 a fortnight.

PN3003

Thank you. Do you have a document there in front of you which has got Community Care Options on the top of it, and below that it's got a heading, Schedule of Rates 2019/2020 CCO Home Care Package Clients?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

PN3004

Is that the schedule of, well, at least hourly rates? Can I just ask whether the Bench has a copy of that?

*** DEBORAH GAYE RYAN XXN MS DOUST

PN3005

JUSTICE ROSS: We've got the two and they're not identified, so what's on the front of it?

PN3006

MS DOUST: I do have copies available. I can hand them up if it's ‑ ‑ ‑

PN3007

JUSTICE ROSS: Sure, hand them up. Yes, thanks.

PN3008

MS DOUST: Yes. I'm sorry, Ms Ryan, can I just go back to that document?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN3009

You have it in front of you, the schedule of rates?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3010

Is that the current Community Care Options Schedule of Rates for Home Care Package Clients?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3011

I tender that.

PN3012

JUSTICE ROSS: I mark that exhibit HSU14.

EXHIBIT #HSU14 CROSS EXAMINATION OF DEB RYAN: CCO SCHEDULE OF RATES

PN3013

MS DOUST: Just if I can ask you, Ms Ryan, under the NDIS you accept you have an entitlement to charge for time spent writing reports in relation to the care of a client?‑‑‑Only in recent changes of the NDIS provisions, yes.

PN3014

Thank you. I just want to take you to a document that was described as a cancellation log?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3015

Do you have that document in front of you, Ms Ryan?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN3016

Could I just explain something to the Bench about the document first? This is all that I could fit onto an A3 page of this document. We provided it electronically to the Commission yesterday. There are some further columns to the right-hand side of the document that I didn't need to take the client to, but this part of the document should illustrate the matters that I'm going to. The client will have a full copy of the document in front of her. I'm sorry, the witness will have a full copy of the document in front of her.

*** DEBORAH GAYE RYAN XXN MS DOUST

PN3017

JUSTICE ROSS: But we don't need a full copy?

PN3018

MS DOUST: I don't think so, but it's a matter for my friend. He provided us with the document and the witness has the document. I think my friend has got some concerns about confidentiality and we're happy to deal with them.

PN3019

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes, if you deal with it by consent order that's fine. It didn't work the last time. We'll see how it goes this time.

PN3020

MS DOUST: Ms Ryan, just going to that document does that set out the cancellations in your service between 26 November 2018 and 7 December 2018?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN3021

So is this ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑In the first tab.

PN3022

‑ ‑ ‑a record that the company keeps on an ongoing basis? So does it create this record for every month and every week?‑‑‑No, we stopped doing it because it was very arduous to keep track of.

PN3023

It does have a number of columns so I can imagine the burden?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3024

But just looking at that is this a fair ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑So we did it for a period of time to - obviously because we were aware the award was changing around same day cancellation stuff or proposed to be changed.

PN3025

Yes?‑‑‑That you would keep track of it over a three month period or something, so it's - just to keep track of for a pay fortnight is very arduous.

PN3026

No, I can see, but just if we have a look at the items that we have. I'm sorry, does this capture all of the cancellations that occurred throughout this period, 26 November 2018 to 7 December?‑‑‑Well, I guess subject to human error someone has been busy - too busy and not taken the time to put it on the log.

PN3027

It's intended to capture all of the cancellations but ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑It's intended to but whether it does or not I can't say.

*** DEBORAH GAYE RYAN XXN MS DOUST

PN3028

But do you agree with - and in the - if you go across to the eighth column, do you see we can see there there's a reference to either chargeable or non-chargeable?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3029

And do you agree with me, the vast bulk of your cancellations fall into that category of being chargeable?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3030

Thank you. And indeed ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Chargeable for one hour which is what ‑ ‑ ‑

PN3031

When we look down the column and marry up whether or not the cancellation was chargeable and who performed the service we can also see whether the service was to be performed by a casual employee or a permanent employee?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3032

So what would happen if a casual employee was engaged to perform the service and it was cancelled?‑‑‑Casuals are engaged on an hour-by-hour basis, so if they turn up to the client service, which sometimes clients cancel when the worker gets to the door or if they're in transit, and we pay them the hour that we pay our other employees if they don't - if we were advised before the worker has actually left to go to the service we don't pay them anything.

PN3033

Thank you. I tender that document. Can I tender the electronic version that was submitted to the Commission so that it's a complete copy of the ‑ ‑ ‑

PN3034

JUSTICE ROSS: Why do we need the complete copy? Why can't we just work on this? You've made the point about cancellation on here.

PN3035

MS DOUST: I don't want to be seen to mislead the Commission about any ‑ ‑ ‑

PN3036

JUSTICE ROSS: No, that's fine.

PN3037

MS DOUST: ‑ ‑ ‑of the content of the document.

PN3038

JUSTICE ROSS: Is there anything else in the balance of it that's at all relevant to what we're dealing with?

PN3039

MR SCOTT: My short answer is I don't know. I have no objection to it being tendered in either form.

*** DEBORAH GAYE RYAN XXN MS DOUST

PN3040

JUSTICE ROSS: We'll deal with the document we have and mark it exhibit HSU15.

EXHIBIT #HSU15 CROSS EXAMINATION OF DEB RYAN: SAME DAY CANCELLATION LOG – SUBJECT TO CONFIDENTIALITY ORDER

PN3041

MR SCOTT: Can I, your Honour, just foreshadow to the extent that there's details of client's names, et cetera, if that exhibit can be a confidential exhibit.

PN3042

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes, we'll mark it so at the moment it will be subject to an order later.

PN3043

MS DOUST: Yes, we don't have any objection to that.

PN3044

JUSTICE ROSS: You might want to give some thought to whether you need it as an exhibit at all, but you can deal with that later when you're sorting out the confidentiality.

PN3045

MS DOUST: Yes. Ms Ryan, at paragraph 64 you refer to employees performing 15 minute shifts, or you say:

PN3046

Our shifts vary between 15 minutes and 12 hours.

PN3047

Do you have that paragraph in front of you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN3048

Could I just ask you, do you roster employees to perform only 15 minutes of work and they're only paid for 15 minutes?‑‑‑Not - well, if a client service is requested for 15 minutes, yes, we will roster the worker for 15 minutes and pay them for 15 minutes, but they would - they work a minimum of one hour engagement in a day.

PN3049

So they may during the course of the day have a 15 minute engagement somewhere and then a 45 minute engagement somewhere else?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN3050

Is there any limit on the time between those two engagements?‑‑‑Well, we try and run our rosters on runs because obviously we want them to be attractive to our staff, so we try and that's why we've got a big rostering team, and they basically try and put all the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle together, and provide a run of services that the worker can engage in on a day. So they might have, I don't know, might work five, six more hours in a day and work with potentially five, six clients in a day, and we pay them travel time between each client.

*** DEBORAH GAYE RYAN XXN MS DOUST

PN3051

Yes?‑‑‑Which is currently an above award condition.

PN3052

Just in terms of the 15 minutes are there other periods of attendance that are also less than an hour's length?‑‑‑Less than an hour, yes. Well, obviously we have 30 minute or 45 minute services.

PN3053

In that instance will the employee be paid for their travel out to the client's home?‑‑‑Not from their place of residence, no. I believe that's an Australian Tax Office ruling, not from your home to your place of work, and same in the evening, but everything else we pay them for their time between.

PN3054

I'm asking there, Ms Ryan, about the time that an employee spends travelling to the client's home, not in respect of any kilometre rate. But can I deal with these specifically, please, are you saying in that instance where a client is working, say, a 15 minute shift they won't be paid for the time they spend travelling to the client's home; is that right?‑‑‑Not if it's their first client of the day or their last client of the day.

PN3055

They won't be paid any kilometre allowance for the use of their vehicle to travel to that client's home?‑‑‑Not if it's their first client or their last client. For all other travel they are paid both their kilometres and their time.

PN3056

I presume in respect of a client such as that - I'm sorry, an employee in that situation they're required to use their own vehicle?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN3057

The organisation doesn't provide them with a vehicle?‑‑‑No.

PN3058

If the shift is broken, if they go out to perform a 15 minute shift and then there's a break in the shift are they paid their travel back home over the course of that break?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3059

They're paid to travel back home during a break in a shift?‑‑‑I'm sorry, no. They travelled from - they're paid for travel kilometres from the last client to the next client.

PN3060

So in that ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Not if they home in between.

*** DEBORAH GAYE RYAN XXN MS DOUST

PN3061

‑ ‑ ‑event you might have someone that spends however long driving out to the client, not paid for that time or for the petrol, paid for 15 minutes' work, and then they drive home not being paid either for that time or for the petrol?‑‑‑Well, that wouldn't happen, because we would not ever give someone just a 15 minute shift in a day.

PN3062

I thought you'd accepted earlier on that you did on occasion roster such shifts?‑‑‑We don't roster such shifts, but I said we try and roster them on a run. So if, for example, someone's - a client has said, "I'm sick today" or gone to hospital, that may create a break in that worker's shift. We would pay them for a one hour same day cancellation, and then travel to a next client. No one would ever just work 15 minutes. We don't render 15 minute services in terms of sitting isolated by themselves, I guess.

PN3063

But they might perform that during the course of the day?‑‑‑They certainly may perform a 15 minute service. I mean, they're not the norm. Sometimes that's just popping in and, you know, prompting someone to take their medication or put their ted stockings on or heating ‑ ‑ ‑

PN3064

A 15 ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑ ‑ ‑ ‑a meal in the microwave, but, so, yes, that may happen in a day.

PN3065

That may be one part of their day, and the other part of the day might be another 45 minutes somewhere; is that right?‑‑‑Yes, or it could be another six hours, seven hours somewhere.

PN3066

Now you say at paragraph 59 you have difficulty finding staff with the appropriate skills for the business?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3067

What's your turnover rate for part-time employees in the course of a year?‑‑‑Okay. Give me one sec. I don't think we have a high turnover rate. Did you ask for casuals or part time?

PN3068

You could give me either?‑‑‑Well, we tend to have more turnovers for casuals obviously. People come into the sector. We traditionally employ them as casuals upfront, but we are changing our recruitment practices around that. And then people decide it's not for them, so they, you know, move on, but our retention rate for permanent part-time staff is pretty good.

PN3069

Can I ask you, you should have a document there entitled Instruction Sheet Home Care Agreement Home Care Package. Do you have that document?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3070

Community Care Options?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DEBORAH GAYE RYAN XXN MS DOUST

PN3071

Can I ask does the Bench have a copy of that document? It's a fairly sizeable one.

PN3072

JUSTICE ROSS: Do you have a copy of that?

PN3073

MS DOUST: Yes, I can hold - I have multiple, your Honour.

PN3074

Do you recognise that document, Ms Ryan?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN3075

Is that the pro forma home care agreement that you have with home care clients of the organisation?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN3076

Sorry, I seem to have mislaid the reference in the document. I think there's a reference in there about charging clients if they cancel a service; is that correct?‑‑‑I don't know if it's in that document or whether it's on our schedule or rates.

PN3077

Can I ask you to have a look at - sorry, no wrong document?‑‑‑I'm just having a look through it.

PN3078

That's fine. I tender that document.

PN3079

JUSTICE ROSS: I'll mark that exhibit HSU16.

EXHIBIT #HSU16 COMMUNITY CARE OPTIONS HOME CARE AGREEMENT TEMPLATE (THE INSTRUCTION SHEET IS ONLY THE FIRST PAGE)

PN3080

MS DOUST: In any event you say that in one of the agreement documents you have with clients, Ms Ryan, there's provision for the payment of a fee in the event of cancellation of service at the client's instigation; is that right?‑‑‑That's correct. It's actually in our schedule of rates that we tendered earlier.

PN3081

Thank you. Yes, nothing further, your Honour.

PN3082

JUSTICE ROSS: Ms Ryan, it's Justice Ross, I've just got a couple of questions for you in relation to that part of your statement that deals with the rostering of part-time employees?‑‑‑Yes.

*** DEBORAH GAYE RYAN XXN MS DOUST

PN3083

It's from paragraphs 54 through to - sorry, bear with me for a moment. It's the minimum engagement section ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3084

‑ ‑ ‑from paragraph 60 onwards. Can I take you to paragraph 66?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3085

You say there that most of your part-time employees work between five and six hours a day, and some of these are broken shifts and some are consecutive?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3086

Can you give me any indication as to what proportion of shifts are broken and what proportion are consecutive?‑‑‑I don't know if I can give you a definitive number of that. Broken shifts would not be greater than the amount of shifts that are consecutive. I could definitively say that. But again it depends on what happens with a client on any given day, because whilst we roster services that nicely back on to each other if there's - someone gets sick or goes into respite or just feels unwell today and doesn't want their service then that creates a gap and we can't always replace that service at that particular time with that particular worker.

PN3087

In relation to those circumstances where you roster a part-time employee for a broken shift, how many breaks in the shift are there? By that I mean, so a ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑In a day, do you mean?

PN3088

Yes. Yes, in the day. So a single break would be you roster them for work for a period in the morning, say a couple of hours, then there's a break of four or five hours, then they're rostered for a period of work in the evening, so I'd characterise that as a single break, broken shift?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3089

Do you have - yes?‑‑‑That wouldn't be - again, we try and roster particularly for our high needs clients that have early morning and late night services, so we go from 6 am till about 11 o'clock at night. Again, we try and roster those in runs, so we have a morning run and an evening run, so we try not to have the same worker coming in in the morning and having a four or five hour break ‑ ‑ ‑

PN3090

No, no, I ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑ ‑ ‑ ‑and then coming back in the evening. That's not good practice for us.

PN3091

Sure, I appreciate that you don't endeavour to do it, but you do have some broken shifts. You say that in your statement. I'm just trying to find out ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Absolutely we do. Yes.

*** DEBORAH GAYE RYAN XXN MS DOUST

PN3092

Yes. I'm just trying to find out of the broken shifts you have how many breaks are there in the course of the day?‑‑‑Well, I would hope no more than one. Again, we do try, say, a client has cancelled a service for example, and we say to the worker, "If you ring" - you know, "Ring us up, we'll ring the client and see if we can move your next service up, so you don't have a gap" and 80 per cent of the time clients are amenable to that. It just depends if they have an appointment or not, so we do try and accommodate staff by, you know, moving their last service to fill that gap earlier so they can go home if we can, but that's not always possible.

PN3093

Thanks, Ms Ryan. Any re-examination?

PN3094

MR SCOTT: No. Thank you, your Honour.

PN3095

JUSTICE ROSS: Nothing further? Thank you for your evidence, Ms Ryan. You're excused?‑‑‑Okay. No worries. Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.57 AM]

PN3096

JUSTICE ROSS: Starting to get a feel for some of the issues you might've faced, Mr Scott. Mr Harvey?

PN3097

MR SCOTT: They have a passion for the industry and they like to share their stories particularly in regional areas. Mr Harvey, he's here.

PN3098

JUSTICE ROSS: So you've dealt with the ones that are not read. Are there any remaining contested parts of his statement or issues in his statement that you want to object to?

PN3099

MS DOUST: That would actually require me to find the list of objections again. Yes. Your Honour, paragraph 52 of Mr Harvey, our objection is on the basis of hearsay, because Mr Harvey there says that wage overhead costs due to overtime wages has been identified as not financially viable; that it's someone else, but the secondary objection to that is that even if it was someone else's view then the basis or the calculation, none of the facts are set out to support that conclusion.

PN3100

JUSTICE ROSS: We'll deal with that the same way as the previous objections. We don't propose to exclude it, but we acknowledge the point as to no basis is provided for it.

PN3101

MS DOUST: Yes. There's also an objection to paragraph 60, your Honour.

*** DEBORAH GAYE RYAN XXN MS DOUST

PN3102

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN3103

MS DOUST: We say that that's speculation.

PN3104

JUSTICE ROSS: No, we don't propose to exclude paragraph 60.

PN3105

MS DOUST: If it please the Commission.

PN3106

JUSTICE ROSS: Do you want to call Mr Harvey?

PN3107

THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name and address for the record.

PN3108

MR HARVEY: Scott Raymond Harvey, (address supplied).

<SCOTT RAYMOND HARVEY, AFFIRMED [11.00 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCOTT [11.01 AM]

PN3109

MR SCOTT: Good morning, Mr Harvey?‑‑‑Good morning.

PN3110

Do you have a copy of your statement with you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3111

And I understand there's an attachment to that statement as well?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3112

Can you just confirm your statement is 63 paragraphs in length?‑‑‑Yes, I can confirm that. Yes.

PN3113

And can you confirm the contents of that statement are true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?‑‑‑It is.

PN3114

Thank you, Mr Harvey. I tender that, your Honour.

PN3115

JUSTICE ROSS: I'll mark that exhibit ABI7, noting the parts not read as set out in exhibit ABI4.

*** SCOTT RAYMOND HARVEY XN MR SCOTT

EXHIBIT #ABI7 STATEMENT OF SCOTT HARVEY – TO BE READ IN CONJUNCTION WITH ABI4

PN3116

Ms Doust?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DOUST [11.01 AM]

PN3117

MS DOUST: Mr Harvey, can I just ask you to go to paragraph 45 of your statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3118

You refer to changes to the - I'm sorry, if we go back to paragraph 44 you refer to changes to the NDIS policy and framework for cancellations taking effect from 1 February 2019?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3119

But I think you understand, don't you, that there were changes that were made in July to the cancellation arrangements under the NDIS?‑‑‑Yes. So I do agree with that, yes.

PN3120

And the effect of the changes, I think as you've set out at paragraph 45, is where you're not given at least two clear business days' notice for a support up to eight hours and under $1000 worth of value then the NDIS money is still paid at the rate of 90 per cent?‑‑‑That is correct. So, yes, as a service, registered NDIS service provider, we would make claim back at ‑ ‑ ‑

PN3121

Yes?‑‑‑Currently now you claim back at the full rate and the NDIS actually convert that back to a 90 per cent per unit cost of support provided.

PN3122

But what's occurred is that the cancellation period has increased?‑‑‑Has increased, yes.

PN3123

And the - sorry, I've just lost my track, the period of notice that's required is increased and there's no limitation any more on the number of cancellations that can be recovered under that program?‑‑‑That is correct, but where ‑ ‑ ‑

PN3124

You recover it at 90 per cent of the rate?‑‑‑At 90 per cent, but where a customer - previously it was limited to a number, and providers were expected to actually identify that to the NDIS where a customer had a large number of cancellations. That was a duty of care that we had as a service provider and following the NDIS terms of business that we would report that through.

PN3125

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

*** SCOTT RAYMOND HARVEY XXN MS DOUST

PN3126

I just want to be clear about what you're ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑And we still - sorry, and we still do. Like, with the unlimited cancellations now through a person's NDIS funding that we still have that duty of care to actually identify issues that may be occurring for that person.

PN3127

Yes. The net result for you as a provider of services is that you have greater scope to claim moneys back through the NDIS in respect of cancellations, isn't it?‑‑‑We would definitely agree.

PN3128

So if it appears from paragraphs 45 to 48 of your statement that you're in fact suggesting the contrary, that you're not allowed to recover fees in respect of those late notice cancelations would that be an incorrect reading of your statement?‑‑‑Sorry, can you just repeat that again?

PN3129

Yes?‑‑‑Just - yes, I don't understand what you're actually asking.

PN3130

You refer to a category of late notice or short notice cancellations?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN3131

And I presume that's a concept that marries up with that period during which you can claim the moneys back from the NDIS, so that two clear day period?‑‑‑Yes, two - yes, so the information that's contained in my report is based on data that we collected from the 2017 to '18 financial year which, yes, different pricing and different terms of business that the NDIS had in place. So with the increase in the cancellation period, we may see with the number of cancellations that we have that that data may also increase in size given the number of customers that we provide support to under the current NDIS core support service models that we provide.

PN3132

Can we break it down to this proposition, you're not saying ConnectAbility is financially worse off as a consequence of the NDIS changes, are you?

PN3133

JUSTICE ROSS: Which changes?

PN3134

MS DOUST: To cancellation?‑‑‑To be honest I can't provide an answer to that question, whether we would be or would not be.

PN3135

Let's just go back in your statement, if you don't mind, just back to paragraph 34. Paragraph 34 you talk about some cancellations there for the 2018 financial year?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

*** SCOTT RAYMOND HARVEY XXN MS DOUST

PN3136

And you're referring there to 72 per cent of the cancellations were late notice cancellations or no shows?‑‑‑Correct.

PN3137

They were cancellations that, subject to the overall number limit, you were entitled to claim back from the NDIS, or you were entitled to claim moneys from the NDIS in respect of those cancellations?‑‑‑That total number of cancellations doesn't take into effect the eight cancellation limit per customer.

PN3138

Yes?‑‑‑That is overall data that we collected. It's an approximate and it's not - you know, it may not be 100 per cent correct based on the data that I collect from my team that I work with, which is our rostering team and our team leaders who oversee the supports for our NDIS programs.

PN3139

Do you accept this proposition, based on that data, there is no basis for suggesting that ConnectAbility would be worse off financially as a consequence of the July 2019 NDIS changes to cancellation arrangements. Do you accept that proposition?‑‑‑I accept that proposition, yes. Yes.

PN3140

Thank you. Just go to paragraph 57 if I might. I'm sorry, could I just go back? And do you accept as a consequence of the proposition you've just accepted do you accept this, if your statement appears to suggest to the contrary then that's a misunderstanding of your evidence?‑‑‑I accept that.

PN3141

Thank you. Sorry, can I ask you to go to paragraph 57. So you say there ConnectAbility makes some steps to try and organise for blocks of work to be performed consecutively so to make the work offer worthwhile. Do you agree with that?‑‑‑Agree, yes.

PN3142

And paragraph 58 is also an example of ConnectAbility trying to do that?‑‑‑Correct.

PN3143

In the example you give in paragraph 60 of a client that has supports of two hours on four days a week you could equally make some efforts to try and organise for that two hour support to abut another support to another client, couldn't you?‑‑‑Yes, we could, but that would be in consultation with customers involved.

PN3144

Sure?‑‑‑In service provision and whether that meets their support needs, and within the funding parameters of their core supports in their NDIS plan.

*** SCOTT RAYMOND HARVEY XXN MS DOUST

PN3145

So in that event that wouldn't mean any reduction in supports to the individual, would it?‑‑‑Yes, it may. It may mean that due to the availability of the staff member who is currently engaged to provide those supports may not - we may not have the flexibility to re-roster. It may mean that other staff are engaged and inducted and introduced to the support for that individual customer as well.

PN3146

I'm sorry, I just don't follow how that means that there's a reduction in supports to the individual?‑‑‑If we had to engage - reduce an engagement for - or increase an engagement based on the minimum three hours, so that customer has a two-hour engagement, okay, and we have to increase that to a three-hour engagement, that may affect the other supports that that customer received through the week.

PN3147

You accept, don't you, that if under the award you were obliged to give a three hour minimum engagement that wouldn't oblige the organisation to change the engagement in respect of the client. Do you accept that proposition?‑‑‑No, as an NDIS service provider we have - as the customers have control and choice over how service is provided and so does the service provider have control and choice over who they support and how that's engaged, so, no, that might not be the case.

PN3148

Thank you. Nothing further.

PN3149

JUSTICE ROSS: Any further cross-examination?

PN3150

MR BULL: No, we don't have (indistinct).

PN3151

MR SCOTT: Nothing. Thank you, your Honour.

PN3152

JUSTICE ROSS: Thank you very much for your evidence. You're excused?‑‑‑Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.11 AM]

PN3153

MR SCOTT: Your Honour, our next witness, Wendy Mason, was scheduled for 12.15. Now, we've asked all of our witnesses to be here an hour before, but I'm just conscious that it's not quite 11.15 and I ‑ ‑ ‑

PN3154

JUSTICE ROSS: We might adjourn then for 10 minutes or so.

PN3155

MR SCOTT: Thank you.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.12 AM]

*** SCOTT RAYMOND HARVEY XXN MS DOUST

RESUMED [11.31 AM]

PN3156

MR SCOTT: Your Honour, we have Ms Mason here. I'd like to call her.

PN3157

JUSTICE ROSS: Are there any objections to Ms Mason's statement?

PN3158

MS DOUST: There is one, but I can take a guess at the approach that the Bench will take.

PN3159

JUSTICE ROSS: Good.

PN3160

MS DOUST: But I just ‑ ‑ ‑

PN3161

JUSTICE ROSS: So you're not pressing it?

PN3162

MS DOUST: No, I just wish to record it formally.

PN3163

JUSTICE ROSS: Sure.

PN3164

MS DOUST: It's paragraph 54, the first sentence. This is one of the objections that I made on the basis that the basis for the expression of the opinion was not disclosed.

PN3165

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes, all right. Thank you.

PN3166

MR SCOTT: We call Ms Mason.

PN3167

JUSTICE ROSS: Thanks. In relation to the point you've made, Ms Doust, same answer, but we understand the proposition you're putting.

PN3168

THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name and address.

PN3169

MS MASON: Wendy Mason, (address supplied).

<WENDY MASON, AFFIRMED [11.33 AM]

*** SCOTT RAYMOND HARVEY XXN MS DOUST

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCOTT [11.33 AM]

PN3170

MR SCOTT: Good morning, Ms Mason. Can I just take you - sorry, do you have a copy of your statement with you?‑‑‑I do.

PN3171

I understand that is 72 paragraphs in length. Can you confirm that for me?‑‑‑That's correct. Yes.

PN3172

Can I take you to paragraph 63?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3173

I understand there may be a minor correction to the first sentence there. There's a reference to "the majority of our shifts". Can you just explain to the Commission what you mean by that?‑‑‑So in talking about shifts here we're talking about services.

PN3174

Right, okay. Can you otherwise confirm that the contents of your statement is true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?‑‑‑Yes. That's correct.

PN3175

I tender that, your Honour.

PN3176

JUSTICE ROSS: Mark that exhibit ABI8 and should be read in conjunction with ABI4.

EXHIBIT #ABI8 STATEMENT OF WENDY MASON – TO BE READ IN CONJUNCTION WITH ABI4

PN3177

MR SCOTT: Thank you. Ms Mason, can I take you to paragraph 19? Now, I understand in paragraph 19 you're giving a breakdown of the total workforce of Baptist Care?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN3178

Then you indicate at paragraph 20 that you have 1182 home care employees engaged in the home services Baptist Care at home division?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN3179

So that's a division of Baptist Care?‑‑‑Correct.

PN3180

And the breakdown that follows is a breakdown of employment category of the 1182 home care employees in the Baptist Care at home division?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN3181

Can I take you to paragraph 25? So you indicate there that of those 1182 staff in that division approximately 980 are covered under the terms and conditions of an enterprise agreement?‑‑‑That's correct. Yes.

*** WENDY MASON XN MR SCOTT

PN3182

There's no breakdown by employment category or type of the 980 covered by the enterprise agreement. Do I take it that the enterprise agreement predominantly covers the support workers?‑‑‑That's correct. Yes.

PN3183

And do I take it that in respect of the remaining employees within that division that are not covered by the enterprise agreement that may be back office management staff?‑‑‑Correct, case managers.

PN3184

Would it be fair to say that there may be a higher proportion of full-time employees in those back office management ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑That would be correct, yes.

PN3185

So I take it that if we just look at the 980 covered by the enterprise agreement and we take that cohort by reference to the breakdown at paragraph 20 you may in fact have a lower proportion of full-time employees and a higher proportion of part-time and casual employees?‑‑‑That would be correct, yes.

PN3186

Thank you.

PN3187

JUSTICE ROSS: Are you able to provide that breakdown in numbers? Not now but ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑I could - yes, we could. Yes.

PN3188

If you could provide that to Mr Scott and he'll provide it to us.

PN3189

MR SCOTT: Thank you, your Honour. Nothing further from me. Thank you, Ms Mason.

PN3190

JUSTICE ROSS: Cross-examination?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DOUST [11.37 AM]

PN3191

MS DOUST: Yes. Thank you. Ms Mason, can I show you a document, please? Can you take your time and just have a look at the document and see if it's something you recognise?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN3192

Is that the pro forma employment contract that's used for the engagement of those employees in the home services division that are referred to in paragraph 25 of your statement?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

*** WENDY MASON XXN MS DOUST

PN3193

Thank you. I tender that.

PN3194

JUSTICE ROSS: Mark that exhibit HSU17.

EXHIBIT #HSU17 CROSS EXAMINATION OF WENDY MASON: PRO FORMA CONTRACT TEMPLATE

PN3195

MS DOUST: It's a requirement under that contract that employees provide their own motor vehicle for work related purposes?‑‑‑That's correct. Yes.

PN3196

I assume that's because they're not required to report in to Baptist Care's premises at the start of the day. They don't work from that location?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN3197

They just ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑If we're talking about our direct care workers?

PN3198

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3199

They go directly out to visit the clients in their homes or take them to other locations from there?‑‑‑Yes. That's correct.

PN3200

Thank you. I just want to show you what's an extract of the enterprise agreement? I might - I excised the material that's not immediately relevant so it's a much abridged version. I just want to confirm with you this position, that there is, looking through that document - you recognise that document?‑‑‑I recognise our EA in terms of it being a reduced document.

PN3201

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3202

If you go through to about the third page in, third or fourth page in we see clause 12.3?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3203

And that provides for a minimum payment of two hours for each start for employees?‑‑‑That's correct. Yes.

PN3204

Is that something that applies to those workers in the home services division?‑‑‑That's correct. Yes.

*** WENDY MASON XXN MS DOUST

PN3205

And by "start" does that mean per day or per time that they're called out to perform some work?‑‑‑So it's a portion of - yes, so can you ask me that question again, so I can ‑ ‑ ‑

PN3206

Okay. Does the way that Baptist Care apply that, that the two hour minimum relates to a day or each time they're called out to do some work?‑‑‑So a day.

PN3207

A day?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3208

So is it the case that that two hours might be broken up into components of less than two hours during the course of the day?‑‑‑Okay, so, no.

PN3209

All right. Thank you?‑‑‑I may not have understood your first question then.

PN3210

No. For these employees, if you just leap forward in that document to the page that includes clause 18, we see that payment for travel is dealt with for this cohort of workers at clause 18.2(e), do you agree with that?‑‑‑Yes, correct.

PN3211

So does that mean that for these workers Baptist Care's approach is this, when an employee travels out to their first client in the day they don't receive any payment for the time spent undertaking that travel?‑‑‑That's correct. Yes.

PN3212

They don't receive any payment in respect of the kilometres of travel undertaken using their vehicle in respect of that trip?‑‑‑That's correct. Yes.

PN3213

Payment is made for both time and at a kilometre rate, is it, between clients?‑‑‑Correct. Yes.

PN3214

And then on the final client of the day they won't receive either of those payments on the trip back to their starting point?‑‑‑Well, to home, yes.

PN3215

Yes?‑‑‑Correct, yes.

PN3216

Thank you. We see, if you go to the second to last page, the current rates in respect of those home care employees they're the rates at the top of table 1 for pay rates, aren't they?‑‑‑Yes, correct.

*** WENDY MASON XXN MS DOUST

PN3217

Thank you. I tender that. I'm sorry, I think that was the third to last page I was just pointing you to?‑‑‑So, schedule B.

PN3218

That second to last leaf.

PN3219

JUSTICE ROSS: I'll mark that exhibit HSU18.

EXHIBIT #HSU18 BAPTIST CARE AGREEMENT NSW & ACT AGED CARE ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT 2017

PN3220

MS DOUST: Thank you. I'll show you another document if I might. Is that a document you recognise, Ms Mason?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN3221

That's Baptist Care's pro forma Commonwealth Home Support Program Service agreement?‑‑‑It is, but there seems to be multiple copies of it.

PN3222

I think that was produced electronically as a single document?‑‑‑So in terms of it being three to - sorry, seven pages is our pro forma agreement, yes.

PN3223

It was produced electronically to us as a single document and so we thought there was some ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3224

I tender that.

PN3225

JUSTICE ROSS: I'll mark that exhibit HSU19.

EXHIBIT #HSU19 BAPTIST CARE COMMONWEALTH HOME SUPPORT PROGRAMME (CHSP) PRO-FORMA SERVICE AGREEMENT

PN3226

MS DOUST: Is this document or whatever is the separate portion of the document the standard agreement used with all clients receiving support under that Commonwealth home support package?‑‑‑That's correct. Yes.

PN3227

What percentage of Baptist Care clients are receiving support or receiving some funding under that package?‑‑‑So we roughly have about 9000 clients.

*** WENDY MASON XXN MS DOUST

PN3228

Yes?‑‑‑We have 2200 who are our package clients. We have transitional care. I would roughly say 3000 - sorry, less than 3000, so 6000 of the 9000 are Commonwealth Home Support clients.

PN3229

Right. Those Commonwealth Home Support clients, are they also receiving funding under some other form of package?‑‑‑They possibly could be on a Home Care Package, as well.

PN3230

Yes. I just note on the front page there, if we go down underneath the heading "Services", it refers there to:

PN3231

The days and times of your service will be agreed between you and the care facilitator appointed by us following consultation with you. Timing and frequency of the delivery of services will be agreed between you and the care facilitator -

PN3232

and so on. You sit down when you take on a new client under this scheme, do you, and figure out which services are going to be provided at what times of the week to the client. Is that right?‑‑‑That's correct, yes, based on the client's needs and preferences.

PN3233

Is that contained in a different document somewhere?‑‑‑So they would then receive a care plan.

PN3234

Yes?‑‑‑That would list the services being provided.

PN3235

All right?‑‑‑The approximate times, dates; so the days and approximate times that those services will be provided.

PN3236

All right. So there is a degree of flexibility, is there, on either side about the time of delivery if there are changes in either party's circumstances?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3237

Can I just ask you to go to the third page of that document, please. You will see there at the top of the page:

PN3238

You will be invoiced for any services cancelled by you if you do not request the change to the planned services before 10 am on the day prior to the day of the planned service delivery.

*** WENDY MASON XXN MS DOUST

PN3239

That's an arrangement that's allowed under that Commonwealth Home Support Program scheme to charge a cancellation fee where the client has cancelled the service without - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3240

That's one clear day, around about, or possibly a little bit longer?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3241

Thank you. Can I take you now to another document, if I might. Can I hand the witness a document, please?‑‑‑Thank you.

PN3242

Is that a document you recognise, Ms Mason?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN3243

All right. Is that the standard form of home care agreement that Baptist Care uses with its level 1 Home Care Package clients?‑‑‑It's the same agreement that we would use across all four levels for Home Care Package clients.

PN3244

All right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3245

But they would have level 1, level 2, level 3 or level 4?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN3246

And there might be some difference in the precise detail of the scope of the delivery?‑‑‑Yes, there would be a difference in the scope of delivery, but the agreement is the same agreement.

PN3247

All right. I tender that.

PN3248

JUSTICE ROSS: I'll mark that exhibit HSU20.

EXHIBIT #HSU20 BAPTIST CARE HOME CARE AGREEMENT

PN3249

MS DOUST: Again could I just ask you to go to page 7 of that document, Ms Mason. There is a provision in there for charge where there is cancellation with less than 24 hours' notice?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN3250

I just take you to page 18 - I'm sorry, go back to page 16. You see those figures on page 16 as to the amount under the various levels of package; are they current? They're current at the moment?‑‑‑Yes, they are.

*** WENDY MASON XXN MS DOUST

PN3251

So that's the amount of funding that's provided by the Commonwealth or is that the total amount of the package?‑‑‑No, that's the funding provided by the Commonwealth government.

PN3252

All right. That amount is increased, is it, by the amount that's contributed by the client subject to an income test?‑‑‑If they have the financial capacity to contribute to the cost of the package, yes.

PN3253

Yes. So for some clients there will be a daily fee which is paid in addition to these amounts?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN3254

But am I right just in looking at - I'm sorry, we'll go to something else first. If you turn over the page we can see there are standard fees in respect of care management?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN3255

Are they consistent across all the clients at a particular level?‑‑‑So there is a varying charge per level, yes.

PN3256

Yes. All right. That's a per fortnight rate, so looking at that a level 1 client you would take $45 a fortnight off the top of - if we go back to the last page - that 8250 that is available in their package of funding?‑‑‑For care management we're talking about?

PN3257

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3258

Or if it's a level 4 client, you're taking the 219 a fortnight off the 50,250 in funding?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN3259

Now, in addition to that care management we also have - just if you could turn over the page, please, to page 18, additionally there is a package management amount which is also a per fortnight amount?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN3260

That comes out of those amounts of funding that are identified on page 16 having regard to the level of package being offered?‑‑‑That's correct, as per the government's model.

PN3261

Yes. If we look up at the top of page 18, we can see the price there for various services. The basic unit price for care is the 59‑dollar amount. That's for an hour, yes?‑‑‑For normal business hours, Monday to Friday.

*** WENDY MASON XXN MS DOUST

PN3262

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3263

I'm sorry, are the outside hours defined somewhere? Is that outside 7.00 to 7.00 or something like that?‑‑‑They apply outside of - well, definitely after 6 pm at night.

PN3264

Yes?‑‑‑Yes. I'd need to clarify whether it's 6 am or 8 am in the morning.

PN3265

All right?‑‑‑I can clarify it; 6 am in the morning.

PN3266

So 6.00 until 6.00 you get - the 6.00 until 6.00, is this on weekdays?‑‑‑(No audible reply)

PN3267

An hour of personal care - - -?‑‑‑So can I re‑clarify that?

PN3268

Please do?‑‑‑Because we - - -

PN3269

Please do?‑‑‑Yes, we did change that within the current EA, so it's 6 am to 8 pm.

PN3270

6.00 to 8.00. Between those hours for personal care, cleaning or respite, $59 an hour?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN3271

After that period on a weekday, 65, and then we have the weekend amounts as set out - weekend and public holiday amounts are as set out there?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN3272

Right. The gardening of course is in a different category?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3273

Now, in the event of cancellation, for example, you will still charge this 59‑dollar or 65 or 78 or 95‑dollar amount, or you can under the agreement in some - - -?‑‑‑We can, yes. In some circumstances, yes.

PN3274

So just for a basic service on a weekday if there is a cancellation that's not in accordance with the notice required under your agreement, Baptist Care can still charge $59?‑‑‑We can. We may choose not to.

*** WENDY MASON XXN MS DOUST

PN3275

But the wages for the employee will be, under your agreement, somewhere between about 22 or 28 dollars for that hour?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3276

So if a client cancelled without giving prior notice and they have, say, three services a day, you would be able to charge for all three services within the 24 hours of receiving that notice?‑‑‑Sorry, can you say that to me again.

PN3277

Just thinking about the example where a client cancels on the morning; they have got three services due that day?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3278

You could charge for all three services under your agreement?‑‑‑In theory we could.

PN3279

Yes. What I want to suggest to you is this: what you could charge for those services would well and truly cover the wage costs for any further services that were scheduled the following day, as well?‑‑‑Quite possibly.

PN3280

We can determine that simply by looking at the wages in the agreement and looking at the terms of the agreement, and the cancellation terms?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN3281

Thank you. Did I tender that agreement? Yes, I did. Could I take you to a further document. Is that a document you recognise, Ms Mason?‑‑‑Yes, price list.

PN3282

The first question: is everyone always that happy?‑‑‑We like to promote a culture of well living and supporting our clients to live their best possible life, so, yes.

PN3283

Right. We see in this document all the various charges set out in one place. Is this the amount that's published on the Internet by the organisation?‑‑‑On My Aged Care, yes, and our web site, yes.

PN3284

Yes. Can I just ask you if the differential price rates that are applied had any impact on demand for services being delivered at the more expensive times of the week?‑‑‑Sorry, what do you mean by the differential - - -

PN3285

Well, you've got I think 6 am to 8 pm - you have your 59‑dollar an hour rate?‑‑‑Yes.

*** WENDY MASON XXN MS DOUST

PN3286

Sunday it's 95, public holidays it's 120. Do you find that that has had an impact on demand for when services are sought to be delivered?‑‑‑I mean, possibly. I can't talk for why our clients make choices, but if it's an essential service that they require then they will still have those services seven days a week.

PN3287

Right. Now, I just want to take you to - just in that price per hour table in the top left‑hand side of the page there is a rate there of $41 for 30 minutes or less?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN3288

You have a minimum fee that isn't, if you like, pro rata'd on the hourly rate?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN3289

Thank you. Is that something you're familiar other providers in the area apply, as well?‑‑‑Some do, some don't.

PN3290

Yes. I tender that.

PN3291

JUSTICE ROSS: I'll mark that exhibit HSU21.

EXHIBIT #HSU21 BAPTIST CARE AT HOME PRICE GUIDE 2019

PN3292

MS DOUST: Just finally on that document, Ms Mason, there is a reference on the bottom of the right‑hand page to transport; $1.10 per kilometre?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN3293

Is that in respect of travel that's undertaken by the care worker?‑‑‑It's the travel associated with the service, so it's not the travel to the client but any travel that they may do with the client or on behalf of the client as part of that service.

PN3294

That's what you charge the client for?‑‑‑Correct, yes.

PN3295

Thank you. Finally, can I show you another document?‑‑‑Thank you.

PN3296

Is that a document you recognise?‑‑‑It's not a document I'm familiar with, no.

PN3297

You're not familiar with the - - -?‑‑‑No.

PN3298

- - - financial position of Baptist Care?‑‑‑It's not my role and I rely on our finance department, so if this has been supplied by Baptist Care then - - -

*** WENDY MASON XXN MS DOUST

PN3299

All right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3300

I tender that. I won't ask the witness anything about it.

PN3301

JUSTICE ROSS: Okay, exhibit HSU22.

EXHIBIT #HSU22 BAPTIST CARE ANNUAL FINANCIAL REPORT

PN3302

MS DOUST: Nothing further, your Honour.

PN3303

JUSTICE ROSS: Any further cross‑examination?

PN3304

MR BULL: I have one question.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BULL [12.00 PM]

PN3305

MR BULL: Ms Mason, my name is Stephen Bull. I'm from United Voice. I note in your statement that you say at paragraph 69 - did you just read it?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN3306

It says:

PN3307

The enterprise agreement only requires - to be available to work broken shifts following consultation and agreement.

PN3308

I take it that that suggests as the employer and also the employees - through bargaining agree that it's not a desirable outcome to have broken shifts?‑‑‑I'm sorry, I can't comment on that. I can't - - -

PN3309

Well, you say you have to have consultation and agreement - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3310

- - - before you have a broken shift. What is the purpose of that provision in the agreement?‑‑‑Again, you know, I'm not involved in the development of our enterprise agreement so I would rely on our HR department to be able to define why that was put into the enterprise agreement. On a daily basis how it's applied, I can comment on.

*** WENDY MASON XXN MR BULL

PN3311

That's the only matter I wanted to raise with the witness.

PN3312

JUSTICE ROSS: Nothing further in cross? No.

PN3313

Can I just ask you a question, Ms Mason, about broken shifts?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3314

So from paragraph 66 onwards in your statement. You say at 66, "The company engages employees to work broken shifts." You talk later about your rostering guidelines and the objectives that you have. In the broken shifts that employees are rostered on, can you tell me anything about what is the usual character of them? By that I mean do you normally only have one break or do you have more than one break? Is it usually where you've got a broken shift there is some work in the morning, some in the evening, or is it broken up into more segments?‑‑‑It can vary depending on the needs of our clients.

PN3315

Sure?‑‑‑So broken shifts are only applied based on the needs of our clients. If we're talking about our small sort of rural areas where we might service a very small number of clients in a small community, then potentially there could be three portions because we might go out in the morning, again at lunch and again in the evening.

PN3316

You say that in May 2019 there were 1591 broken shifts. I'm not seeking the precise number, but what proportion of those would be more than one break?‑‑‑I'm sorry, I would have to look at the information. I couldn't even guess at a percentage there.

PN3317

All right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3318

Well, if you're able to do that and advise Mr Scott?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3319

Any re‑examination or anything arising?

PN3320

MR SCOTT: Just one or two questions, your Honour.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SCOTT [12.03 PM]

*** WENDY MASON RXN MR SCOTT

PN3321

MR SCOTT: Ms Mason, you were asked about cancellations in the context of the agreements in the home care and you were asked about your capacity - or Baptist Care's capacity to charge a cancellation fee in certain circumstances. Your evidence was, "In theory, we could." I just wonder if you could explain what you meant by that?‑‑‑Yes, so there are lots of circumstances where we won't apply a cancellation charge if it's less than 24 hours. Obviously we're dealing with a frail and vulnerable group of people and their health circumstances can change quite quickly. You know, obviously if they have a health event that forces the cancellation, then we won't apply the cancellation charge.

PN3322

Right, okay. One other question. You were taken to a document which is marked exhibit HSU21. It's the summary, as I understand it, of charges that is up on the web site. You were asked about the $1.10 per kilometre transport charge. Are you able to give us any indication as to how that figure was arrived at in terms of setting Baptist Care's prices?‑‑‑I think it's based on the information that we're given both from the Taxation Department and the recommended rates from the NRMA, and then obviously ensuring that we are still competitive in terms of what we charge within the market.

PN3323

Okay. Thank you very much. Nothing further, your Honour.

PN3324

JUSTICE ROSS: Thank you for your evidence. You're excused?‑‑‑Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.05 PM]

PN3325

JUSTICE ROSS: I understand Ms Wang is available at 1.00. Is that right?

PN3326

MR SCOTT: Yes. We have endeavoured to see if she can come earlier, but we haven't had any success.

PN3327

JUSTICE ROSS: No, that's all right. Did you want to deal with any residual objections to Ms Wang's statement now and then we will adjourn until 1 o'clock.

PN3328

MR SCOTT: I don't think there are any. No, we've dealt with - - -

PN3329

MS DOUST: There's no residue, your Honour.

PN3330

JUSTICE ROSS: All right.

PN3331

MR BULL: Your Honour, I don't necessarily want to deal with this matter, but if we have to deal with those today, I thought we shouldn't deal with it as the last thing we do today.

*** WENDY MASON RXN MR SCOTT

PN3332

JUSTICE ROSS: All right.

PN3333

MR BULL: There is a confidentiality order issue in relation to - - -

PN3334

JUSTICE ROSS: Is this between you and Mr Ferguson?

PN3335

MR BULL: Yes.

PN3336

JUSTICE ROSS: I have already told you that's delegated to Clancy DP.

PN3337

MR BULL: I know.

PN3338

JUSTICE ROSS: All right.

PN3339

MR BULL: I'll leave it there.

PN3340

DEPUTY PRESIDENT CLANCY: If you want to address me - - -

PN3341

MR BULL: Deal with it now?

PN3342

DEPUTY PRESIDENT CLANCY: Well, not with the President and Lee C being required, but if you want to address me on any matters arising - - -

PN3343

MR BULL: We could have a conference, I suppose.

PN3344

DEPUTY PRESIDENT CLANCY: Yes. All right.

PN3345

JUSTICE ROSS: Or we can adjourn now - - -

PN3346

DEPUTY PRESIDENT CLANCY: Yes.

PN3347

MR ROBSON: Before we break, sir, there is - - -

PN3348

JUSTICE ROSS: Just let's not move off the last one. Are you happy if we adjourn now?

PN3349

DEPUTY PRESIDENT CLANCY: Yes, just give us five minutes and I'll - - -

PN3350

MR BULL: Thank you, sir.

PN3351

MR ROBSON: Before you break, sir, we have managed to reach agreements on most objections to the evidence of the ASU. I believe that there are some outstanding from AiG and ABI. Maybe we could use this time to deal with that now.

PN3352

JUSTICE ROSS: Sure. Is this in witness statements in the court book?

PN3353

MR ROBSON: Yes. The first one I think we should deal with is Emily Flett.

PN3354

JUSTICE ROSS: What page of the court book is it?

PN3355

MR ROBSON: That would be 1427.

PN3356

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN3357

MR ROBSON: I understand there are some objections. There are a number of parts that we're not reading.

PN3358

JUSTICE ROSS: Well, that's all right. You can provide that later in a document, but we'll just deal with the - what are the outstanding objections?

PN3359

MR ROBSON: I understand - - -

PN3360

JUSTICE ROSS: Well, we can - - -

PN3361

MR ROBSON: Yes, indeed. That's what I was going to say; I would provide them in a document. I think they regard 25 - - -

PN3362

JUSTICE ROSS: Let's not characterise their submissions. They can get up on their feet and explain what their residual objection is.

PN3363

MR ROBSON: Yes.

PN3364

JUSTICE ROSS: All right.

PN3365

MR FERGUSON: We're content for the residual objections to be dealt with as a matter of weight.

PN3366

JUSTICE ROSS: Okay.

PN3367

MR SCOTT: Your Honour, my clients don't have any objections in respect of Ms Flett.

PN3368

JUSTICE ROSS: All right.

PN3369

MR SCOTT: We have resolved those. I think it's just Mr Ferguson - - -

PN3370

MR ROBSON: I understand that there are no objections outstanding to Mr Encabo's statement.

PN3371

MR SCOTT: No, not on the basis that a number of paragraphs will be withdrawn.

PN3372

MR FERGUSON: Yes. As I say, we will provide that in a document, then that should bring us to an end.

PN3373

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes. We will adjourn now until 1.00 and Clancy DP will come back in five minutes or so to have a conference to deal with the confidentiality order issue. We will adjourn.

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.09 PM]

RESUMED [1.05 PM]

PN3374

MR SCOTT: Your Honour, unless there is anything else to deal with we have Ms Wang who is here and we propose to call her.

PN3375

JUSTICE ROSS: Okay. I have just got one thing. I've got some correspondence from the ASU. Mr Robson, that is the agreed employer objections to the statement of Emily Flett - - -

PN3376

MR ROBSON: Yes.

PN3377

JUSTICE ROSS: - - - and Augustino Encabo. I'll mark that exhibit ASU5 - I see, yes, you've got another document which identifies a range of exhibit numbers you want to assign to material.

PN3378

MR ROBSON: Yes.

PN3379

JUSTICE ROSS: I'll mark that employer objections. I think in the sequence it will be ASU16(sic) and we will apply the exhibits numbers that you've suggested in your correspondence to the rest.

PN3380

MR ROBSON: Thank you, sir.

EXHIBIT #ASU5 SCHEDULE OF EMPLOYER OBJECTIONS TO STATEMENTS OF EMILY FLETT AND AUGUSTINO ENCABO

PN3381

MR SCOTT: Just while we're on that subject, your Honour, we handed up a proposed exhibit list yesterday or the day before, but unfortunately I think we may have deviated from it in relation to the ABI exhibits.

PN3382

JUSTICE ROSS: I'm sure you have - or I have. Mr Scott, have you got a copy of them?

PN3383

MR SCOTT: I believe I did, yes. The difficulty, your Honour, is that we had those four documents that fell outside the court book and we were proposing to deal with those as ABI2 through 5, and there was a HammondCare EA that was ABI1. That meant the two witnesses yesterday, Mathewson and Wright, were marked ABI6 and 7. We came back today - - -

PN3384

JUSTICE ROSS: I'm getting a headache now.

PN3385

MR SCOTT: Yes, sorry. ABI2 was the material not read from the witness statements. We then today went 3, 4, 5, 6.

PN3386

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN3387

MR SCOTT: So we've got two ABI6es, we've got Wendy Mason's statement ABI6, but we had Mathewson yesterday who is also 6.

PN3388

JUSTICE ROSS: Okay. So what we will do is we will change the exhibit list in line with your proposal. That will mean the transcript of the cross‑examination of Muurlink will be ABI10.

EXHIBIT #ABI10 FAIR WORK COMMISSION TRANSCRIPT OF 15/07/2016 (AM2014/196 AND AM2014/197)

- CROSS-EXAMINATION OF OLAV MUURLINK (PN6328-PN6468)

PN3389

The cross‑examination of Scott Quinn, the transcript for that will be ABI11.

EXHIBIT #ABI11 FAIR WORK COMMISSION TRANSCRIPT OF 15/03/2016 (AM2014/196 AND AM2014/197)

- CROSS-EXAMINATION OF SCOTT QUINN (PN1543-PN1738)

PN3390

NDIA's support catalogue, ABI12.

EXHIBIT #ABI12 THE NDIS SUPPORT CATALOGUE - OCTOBER 2019-20

PN3391

NDIA efficient cost model spreadsheet, ABI13.

EXHIBIT #ABI13 THE NDIA EFFICIENT COST MODEL SPREADSHEET (ENTIRE SPREADSHEET)

PN3392

Then you have got the statements of Mathewson, Wright, Shanahan, Ryan, Harvey, Mason and Wang. They will be exhibits 6 through 12(sic).

EXHIBIT #ABI9 STATEMENT OF JOYCE WANG – TO BE READ IN CONJUNCTION WITH ABI4

PN3393

Then what was ABI2, parts of the statement not read, will become ABI13.

EXHIBIT #ABI13 PARTS OF WITNESS STATEMENTS NOT READ

PN3394

MR BULL: Your Honour, there is one other matter. I don't know whether - - -

PN3395

JUSTICE ROSS: No, I haven't finished with this yet.

PN3396

MR BULL: Sorry.

PN3397

MR SCOTT: I was just confirming that that is everything, so thank you, your Honour.

PN3398

JUSTICE ROSS: That's all right. Do you want another exhibit? 13 seems like a - no? All right.

PN3399

MR SCOTT: We're trying to keep up with the HSU, who are up to 22, I think.

PN3400

JUSTICE ROSS: Look, there will be a prize at end of it.

PN3401

MS DOUST: They don't have the opportunity to catch us, your Honour. We're so far ahead.

PN3402

MR SCOTT: That's right.

PN3403

JUSTICE ROSS: And they don't have much time either. So parts of the statements not read will be ABI13, okay? Any other preliminaries?

PN3404

MR BULL: I've got a devilish proposal which will put United Voice well in front in terms of exhibits. We sent in the index of home care documents.

PN3405

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN3406

MR BULL: It is of use, I think, to the Commission. If you numbered every single document as exhibit - - -

PN3407

JUSTICE ROSS: I don't think we'll be doing that.

PN3408

MR BULL: - - - we would be miles ahead of everyone. Look, it can be marked for identification, it can be made an exhibit. I'll just indicate that the first chapter, if you like, is just documents from the My Aged Care web site.

PN3409

JUSTICE ROSS: All the other parties have seen it; this bundle of documents?

PN3410

MR SCOTT: Yes.

PN3411

MR BULL: I'll just indicate also for full disclosure I obtained them principally by just, I suppose, pretending to be a person searching for home care. I put in level 4, so everything relates to level 4, the highest level of home care possible.

PN3412

JUSTICE ROSS: Well, we will mark that as exhibit UV7. If on examination there is any issue with any document in there, the employer parties can let us know within seven days.

PN3413

MR BULL: Thank you, your Honour.

PN3414

MS DABARERA: Your Honour, sorry, before we finish with that matter, we're up to UV9.

PN3415

JUSTICE ROSS: Are we?

PN3416

MS DABARERA: Yes.

PN3417

JUSTICE ROSS: Are you sure about that, Ms Dabarera?

PN3418

MS DABARERA: Yes, they - - -

PN3419

JUSTICE ROSS: What was UV7 and 8 just out of interest.

PN3420

MS DABARERA: The statement of Melissa Coad was UV7 and the statement of Jared Marks was UV8.

PN3421

JUSTICE ROSS: Okay. Thank you. We will mark the bundle then as UV9.

EXHIBIT #UV9 BUNDLE OF HOME CARE PRICE GUIDE MATERIALS:

- DOCUMENTS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH GOVERNMENT’S MYAGEDCARE.GOV.AU WEBSITE

- PROVIDER WITNESS PRICE GUIDES DISPLAYED ON MYAGEDCARE

- PROVIDER WITNESS GENERAL PRICE INFORMATION DISPLAYED ON MYAGEDCARE

PN3422

The good news is, Ms Dabarera, that you're beating the ASU and Ai Group at the moment.

PN3423

MS DABARERA: That's something.

PN3424

JUSTICE ROSS: Mr Ferguson is coming a long way last. Ms Wang?

PN3425

MR SCOTT: Yes, we call Ms Wang.

PN3426

THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name and address.

PN3427

MS WANG: My full name is Joyce Wang, 44‑50 Sixth Avenue, Campsie.

<JOYCE WANG, AFFIRMED [1.11 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCOTT [1.12 PM]

PN3428

MR SCOTT: Good afternoon, Ms Wang. I understand you have got a copy of your statement before you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3429

That is 67 paragraphs long. Can you just confirm that?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN3430

Can you confirm that the contents of your statement is true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3431

I tender that, your Honour.

PN3432

JUSTICE ROSS: The statement has been marked as exhibit ABI12.

PN3433

MR SCOTT: Thank you. Nothing from me.

PN3434

JUSTICE ROSS: Cross‑examination?

PN3435

MS DOUST: Yes. Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DOUST [1.12 PM]

PN3436

MS DOUST: Ms Wang, I will show you a document. Is that a document you're familiar with, Ms Wang?‑‑‑I've read it. I'm not very familiar with it.

PN3437

All right. That's from the organisation that you work for?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3438

*** JOYCE WANG XN MR SCOTT

*** JOYCE WANG XXN MS DOUST

It shows us in that document the turnover for the financial year ended 30 June 2018, I think. Sorry, I'll just find that.

PN3439

JUSTICE ROSS: Where does it say that?

PN3440

MS DOUST: I'll just take you to it, Ms Wang. No, I'm sorry, I think it's the wrong document. I will show you another document.

PN3441

DEPUTY PRESIDENT CLANCY: There is turnover mentioned under "HRM".

PN3442

MS DOUST: I'm sorry?

PN3443

MR SCOTT: There is turnover mentioned under "Human resources Melbourne".

PN3444

MS DOUST: Thank you, your Honour.

PN3445

DEPUTY PRESIDENT CLANCY: Page 5.

PN3446

MS DOUST: No, I'm sorry, I'm not talking about turnover of staff. I'm talking about turnover of revenue in the organisation. Can I show you this document.

PN3447

JUSTICE ROSS: What do you want us to do with this document, the other one?

PN3448

MS DOUST: I'll come to that in a moment.

PN3449

JUSTICE ROSS: All right.

PN3450

MS DOUST: Now, is that second document a document you're familiar with?‑‑‑No.

PN3451

Is this the document headed "CASS Care Limited financial report 30 June 2018"?‑‑‑I have seen it, but because it was not made by me so I'm not very familiar with it.

PN3452

All right. I tender that, in any event.

*** JOYCE WANG XXN MS DOUST

PN3453

JUSTICE ROSS: HSU23.

PN3454

MS DOUST: Just extending the lead.

PN3455

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

EXHIBIT #HSU23 CASS FINANCIAL REPORT 30/06/2018

PN3456

MS DOUST: If we go back to the first document that I showed you headed "Chinese Australian Services Society Ltd director's report on review of operations 2017‑2018", we see there at page 5 some detail about the human resources position of the company for that financial year. Agree?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3457

I just want to go and compare the detail there with paragraph 20 of your statement, please. You see in the director's report there is a reference under "Human Resources Management" at the first dot point to 301 staff members?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN3458

Does that compare now to the 350 employees referred to in paragraph 20?‑‑‑I don't quite understand your question.

PN3459

Has there been an increase since - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3460

- - - the end of the 2018 financial year to date in the number of employees in the organisation?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3461

All right. Over that period has there been an increase in the employees who are engaged under the enterprise agreement?‑‑‑During which period, sorry?

PN3462

In that period since 2018, so in the period where there were 301 employees to there now being 350, has there been some corresponding increase in the number of employees employed under the enterprise agreement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3463

All right. Is that the entirety of the increase? So the additional 49‑odd workers, are all of them workers that are employed under the enterprise agreement?‑‑‑Apart from those employees covered by the enterprise agreement there are - some employees working for Child Care Services also increased, so - - -

*** JOYCE WANG XXN MS DOUST

PN3464

All right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3465

Do you know the proportions?‑‑‑I think the majority one are for those who are covered by the enterprise agreement, but I don't have any exact figure.

PN3466

But you don't know the specific details?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN3467

It's the case, isn't it, that Chinese Australian Services Society Ltd also derives finding from sources other than the federal government?‑‑‑I'm not quite sure about this because the society is actually the parent company.

PN3468

Yes?‑‑‑And the CASS Care Limited is actually the subsidiary.

PN3469

Yes?‑‑‑I know that some of our services got funding from the state government, but I'm not quite sure whether it's under the parent company or under the subsidiary company.

PN3470

And as well as the state government, there is some funding which is received from Campsie RSL and local councils in the area in which the organisation works. You would agree with that?‑‑‑I don't know.

PN3471

All right. But if there are references to that in the director's report, that's not something you're familiar with?‑‑‑No.

PN3472

All right. Now, at paragraph 42 of your statement, Ms Wang, you refer to Home Ageing Services - sorry, you refer throughout your statement to the Home Ageing Services part of the company?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3473

Do I take it that that refers to both the 440 Home Care Package clients and the 200 Commonwealth Home Support Program clients that are referred to in paragraph 42?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3474

So that is the cohort of clients that falls within that division?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3475

Is there any other group of clients that falls within that division, as well?‑‑‑Yes, we do have a lot of clients who are receiving the day program we call - the day program services.

*** JOYCE WANG XXN MS DOUST

PN3476

Yes?‑‑‑That means they come to different locations and attend at the activities organised by our organisation.

PN3477

Yes?‑‑‑But I don't have the figure of those clients.

PN3478

But they're not funded under those two sources of Commonwealth funding?‑‑‑No.

PN3479

That's the service that is funded privately by the clients. Is that correct?‑‑‑By both the client and our organisation.

PN3480

Right, okay. Where in your statement you refer to disability services, are they the hundred clients that are referred to in paragraph 42?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN3481

So of the hundred clients that you have, only 61 I think are NDIS supported?‑‑‑Where do you get that percentage?

PN3482

It's in here somewhere. Sorry, I'm just - I'll be with you in a moment. Yes, I'll come back to you on that. Do you have an idea at the moment how many of your disability clients are NDIS funded?‑‑‑As far as I know from the manager of disability services, all of our clients are under the NDIS.

PN3483

How many employees of the company work across those two areas; that's Home Ageing Services and disability services?‑‑‑I don't have the exact figure, but the number should be - I mean, these two services are the largest number compared to the other services, but I don't have the exact figure.

PN3484

In terms of employees of the company - - -?‑‑‑In terms of the employees.

PN3485

- - - they're the biggest group of employees?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3486

All right. So in addition to those Home Ageing Services and the disability services, CASS also runs two group homes?‑‑‑That is under our disability services.

PN3487

Right. It also has those aged care day groups across a number of areas of its operations?‑‑‑Yes.

*** JOYCE WANG XXN MS DOUST

PN3488

All right?‑‑‑That's what I mentioned before; the day programs.

PN3489

All right?‑‑‑Yes, activity groups.

PN3490

So for those workers - the workers that are working in the group homes and running the day groups - they will come to a single location and stay there for the length of their shift?‑‑‑(No audible reply)

PN3491

Or during the course of the shift they might leave that location to take the clients out on various activities, but they'll report to the same place every time. Is that right?‑‑‑For those employees working in the group home, the regular working location are in the group homes, but some of them will be rostered to work for clients using our individual support services so they are not only doing one service.

PN3492

All right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3493

They do a bit of that work at that central location and they might also switch over and do some of that individualised work at the client's home?‑‑‑For other clients. For other clients.

PN3494

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3495

All right. Are you able to say how many workers are working - sorry, so there is no sort of bright line separation between those workers that are working in sort of a single location and the workers that are moving to a range of different locations. Is that right?‑‑‑No, because - I can't give you any specific figure because it depends on the worker's availability and the client's needs. Sometimes maybe the worker only works in the group home, but sometimes when needed they will be rostered to serve other clients.

PN3496

Yes, so the distinction is really in the type of work. Is this correct: there is a portion of the work of the organisation which involves the worker moving around from location to location to provide either a home care service in the home or a disability service to someone at their home or another location. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

*** JOYCE WANG XXN MS DOUST

PN3497

All right. Now, for the workers that are performing that work moving around from location to location, does CASS provide those workers with a vehicle to undertake the travel?‑‑‑They use their own vehicle and we provide the travelling allowances.

PN3498

Yes. Does CASS pay those workers wages for the time spent to travel to a particular location to perform a service for a client in their home or at some other location?‑‑‑We are paying them - for permanent workers we are paying them an allowance which is - in calculation which is related to their hourly rate, but not very straightforward, just the wages, because we are calculating the distance and then we will convert that distance into time.

PN3499

All right?‑‑‑So that sort of time will be calculated based on their hourly rate and then they will get additional pay for the travelling time.

PN3500

So they're paid by reference to time, but on the basis that you calculate a time that it would take or would usually take - - -?‑‑‑For travelling those distances.

PN3501

- - - to travel from A to B. Is that what occurs, say, in their first trip of the day to see their first client? Are they paid - - -?‑‑‑No.

PN3502

- - - an amount in respect of that trip?‑‑‑No.

PN3503

No?‑‑‑The first trip and the last trip were excluded.

PN3504

Excluded?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3505

All right. Do I take it that in respect of that trip - are they paid any money in respect of vehicle use, so a per kilometre allowance?‑‑‑For the first trip and the last trip we don't pay any allowance.

PN3506

But do I take it from that answer that otherwise there is an allowance that is paid for travel otherwise during the course of the day?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3507

Paid working time commences for your workers when they arrive at the location of their first client for the day?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3508

Will that worker then be paid continuously until they have finished seeing their last client for the day?‑‑‑Do you mean the time between two clients - - -

PN3509

Yes?‑‑‑ - - - or different clients?

*** JOYCE WANG XXN MS DOUST

PN3510

The time between two clients, yes?‑‑‑As I said, we don't pay them those times straightforwardly.

PN3511

Yes?‑‑‑So we just - because we assume those times are spending on the travelling, so the travelling allowance actually covers that kind of time.

PN3512

When you say the travelling allowance - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3513

- - - how much is that?‑‑‑So we are paying them the mileage allowance, which is the same as the provision in SCHADS Award.

PN3514

Yes?‑‑‑So it's like 78 cents per kilometre.

PN3515

Yes?‑‑‑On top of that we actually have a bit of calculation. Like, for example, they have travelled 20 kilometres between two clients, so we calculate those 20 kilometres - we convert those 20 kilometres into the time they spend there.

PN3516

All right?‑‑‑So that time will be times their hourly rate.

PN3517

Yes?‑‑‑And that sort of amount will be added up to their earning, so that will be their ordinary earning.

PN3518

So otherwise would you regard that as a broken shift between the clients in that event? Is that how CASS operates?‑‑‑For them - - -

PN3519

If the calculated time - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3520

- - - isn't the same as the actual time between the shifts?‑‑‑I don't think we apply any broken shifts to them for the time being.

PN3521

All right?‑‑‑Let me see. I think we regard them as broken shifts, but as far as I can remember in SCHADS Award because there is no broken shift allowance provision, so we don't apply any broken shift allowance.

PN3522

Can I just take you to paragraph 56 of your statement, please. You refer there to shift lengths ranging from one to five hours?‑‑‑Yes.

*** JOYCE WANG XXN MS DOUST

PN3523

I just want to be clear what you're talking about there, because you refer at the start of that paragraph to:

PN3524

In relation to client service length in our home ageing service shift lengths range from one to five hours.

PN3525

Is the breakdown that you've got in paragraph 56 - is that the breakdown of client service length or is that breakdown of the shifts that are offered to employees?‑‑‑That's the length of the client service.

PN3526

All right?‑‑‑That means each visit - - -

PN3527

Yes?‑‑‑ - - - the worker pay to the client's place.

PN3528

That doesn't necessarily show us what length of shift the employee is working or any particular employee is working?‑‑‑You mean the whole shift? The whole length of shift?

PN3529

Yes?‑‑‑No, because we are talking about the visits here.

PN3530

But you say some of your employees are working broken shifts?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3531

Is there any upper or lower limit on the period of break in the shift?‑‑‑No.

PN3532

Is this the case: a worker could have a one‑hour appointment in the morning between 8 and 9 am, then another hour between 10.30 and 11.30?‑‑‑You mean in the morning?

PN3533

Yes?‑‑‑I don't really know the exact rostering.

PN3534

All right?‑‑‑But I know from our colleagues who are doing the rostering they actually will consider the location where the worker live and the location of the clients, so they will try to arrange the clients for them who are not living too far from them, but I don't have any figure to tell you whether the roster will be like that.

*** JOYCE WANG XXN MS DOUST

PN3535

If there is a break in the shift like that, is the worker paid on that basis that you're talking about; the calculation of the time it takes to travel between the first client and the second client? Does the worker get paid that amount where there is a break in the shift?‑‑‑If they are not travelling, no.

PN3536

If they're not travelling. Well, they would have to travel, wouldn't they, to get to the second client? So what would the circumstances be where they're not travelling to see that second client?‑‑‑If a worker - I mean if the break between two visits are, like, three hours or four hours - - -

PN3537

Yes?‑‑‑ - - - the workers usually do their own things.

PN3538

Yes?‑‑‑So we don't cover the whole three or four hours, but if, like, they travel from client A to client B and it takes one hour, then we pay the - - -

PN3539

All right?‑‑‑Yes, we pay that one hour, but the rest - yes.

PN3540

So is this fair: if there is a break in the shift, from the time that break commences until the shift recommences there is no travel paid in that period?‑‑‑I would say if that break - they are not travelling, there will be no pay, but usually if they need to go to another client they will use the break time to travel.

PN3541

JUSTICE ROSS: Can I just clarify the answer. If during the course of a day you go to one client between, say, 8 am and 9 am in the morning, and the next client is listed at 12 noon and the next client is one hour's travel time away, then as I understand it the employee is paid for the first visit between 8 am and 9 am?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3542

Is then paid one hour's travel time and is not paid the other two‑hour gap between the completion of the first visit and the start of the next one. You've got a three‑hour gap between when you finish your first bit of work and when the next one starts, and it only takes you an hour to travel from the first to the second. You get paid the hour but not the other two hours?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3543

Okay.

PN3544

MS DOUST: For your Home Ageing Services clients and your disability clients, do you have agreements that govern the provision of those services?‑‑‑Are you talking - - -

PN3545

Agreements with the clients?‑‑‑With the clients, yes.

*** JOYCE WANG XXN MS DOUST

PN3546

All right. They identify in them the amount of time that each service will be provided, I presume?‑‑‑Well, as far as what I know from our work colleagues running the services, they tell me that actually they would agree like according to their NDIS funding or according to their home care funding, but this is something like on a weekly basis.

PN3547

Yes?‑‑‑So it's not for each visit. The client actually can utilise - maybe, for example, the client can use 20 hours per week, so the client can decide like each day - maybe today I want to use one hour and tomorrow I want to use two hours, so it's not quite fixed.

PN3548

Yes?‑‑‑So on this service agreement it's not like we are providing services to you, how much time each day or something. It's not that. It's not like that.

PN3549

Could I just ask you, that would be included for a home care client in the care plan, wouldn't it, the types of services to be provided and the regularity of the service?‑‑‑I'm not quite sure about this.

PN3550

All right?‑‑‑Because I didn't ask them about the care plan.

PN3551

You're not responsible yourself for - - -?‑‑‑The care plans and - - -

PN3552

Yes?‑‑‑No.

PN3553

Recording or negotiating the care plans?‑‑‑No.

PN3554

All right. Could I just ask you this: for each client attendance, does CASS require the worker to keep some sort of records, to make notes?‑‑‑Attendance.

PN3555

So each time they go out and deliver a service - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3556

- - do they have to make a record, "Yes, attended. This was the state of the client. This was the work that I did. This was the time that it happened"?‑‑‑For our employees working in the Home Ageing Services, they are using their mobile app.

PN3557

Right, okay. What sort of things are they required to record in the mobile app?‑‑‑The check‑in time, the check‑out time of each client.

*** JOYCE WANG XXN MS DOUST

PN3558

Yes?‑‑‑And the distance they have travelled between different locations.

PN3559

Do they have to make any notes about anything they do?‑‑‑Yes, they need to do the progress notes. I'm not quite sure whether they do it through their mobile phone or after the service they come home to do it.

PN3560

What sort of things do they need to record in the progress notes?‑‑‑Well, I haven't read anything, so I can't tell you any details.

PN3561

Right?‑‑‑But, yes, I know they told me that because I was asked to provide the data about cancellation.

PN3562

Yes?‑‑‑So I asked them and they said, "Oh, we have the progress notes which will record like if a client needs to cancel the service and what reason", and things like that, but I haven't read any progress notes myself.

PN3563

All right. In terms of the hours of work that are calculated, does CASS make some allowance where there is an hour attendance on the client and there is an extra few minutes allowed at the end for which an employee is paid while they write up the notes for the client?‑‑‑I'm not quite sure. What I have heard from them is they have the rostered hours and after they finish the shift - actually because they're using their mobile phone to record the check‑in and check‑out time - - -

PN3564

Yes?‑‑‑ - - - so what we do is we are paying them according to the time sheets.

PN3565

Yes?‑‑‑I suppose the time sheet is based on their actual working hours, but I - - -

PN3566

Yes?‑‑‑Yes, I don't know.

PN3567

So are you saying that the way in which work is rostered allows time for the recording of those notes at the end of the day or the end of a shift?‑‑‑I'm not sure.

PN3568

All right?‑‑‑I'm not sure about this.

PN3569

Is it also a requirement of these workers that they might have to make incident reports from time to time if something out of the ordinary has happened?‑‑‑Yes.

*** JOYCE WANG XXN MS DOUST

PN3570

So if there's something untoward that has happened to a client, they might need to make a report about that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3571

What other forms of documentation are the workers required to complete?‑‑‑I don't know.

PN3572

Paragraphs 47 and 48 of your statement, you refer to the incidence of your part‑time Home Ageing Services employees working more than their contracted hours?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN3573

You have done that calculation for the past month, I presume, prior to making this statement in July of this year?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3574

So is that for June, is it - or between 5 June and 2 July?‑‑‑(No audible reply)

PN3575

That's in paragraph 46?‑‑‑Well, the data was actually provided by my work colleagues in the Home Ageing Services.

PN3576

Yes?‑‑‑So I didn't ask them the exact day.

PN3577

Right, okay. Are you aware whether or not that figure in 47 about the number of Home Ageing Services workers working more than their contracted hours - whether or not that's a typical figure for that requirement?‑‑‑I think it's typical. I think it's typical, but I'm not sure whether 88 per cent is typical. I know that quite a number of them are working more than their contracted hours.

PN3578

Yes, right. So it's a regular occurrence that the part‑time workers in the Home Ageing Services area would be working more than their contracted hours?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3579

But you can't say whether it's regularly in the territory of 88 per cent?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN3580

In paragraph 48 you refer to disability services workers and for them the figure is a hundred per cent?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN3581

Again, are you able to say whether or not that's a fairly typical situation for any month of CASS's activities?‑‑‑I'm not sure whether a hundred per cent is typical.

*** JOYCE WANG XXN MS DOUST

PN3582

No, I appreciate that?‑‑‑But I think the majority of part‑time workers are working hours more than their contracted hours.

PN3583

Regularly working in excess of their contracted hours in disability - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3584

- - - as well as Home Ageing Services?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3585

All right. Do you know how long that has been the case?‑‑‑You mean the working hours in excess of their contracted hours?

PN3586

Yes. Has that always been the case?‑‑‑I think from what I have heard, in the past the number of cases were less. The number of cases were less, but after the CDC model - - -

PN3587

Yes?‑‑‑I mean in the home care and also the NDIS - there are more cases. There are more workers need to work more than their contracted hours.

PN3588

Is that because there has been an increase in demand for services since the introduction of these two funding schemes?‑‑‑Yes, from what I have heard they said there are increasing demands from the clients.

PN3589

Yes?‑‑‑And also because we can't guarantee as many hours as before - as what we did before, because there are too many changes now, so - yes.

PN3590

There is a calculation in paragraph 46 about the cost of paying those hours in overtime rates. Was that your calculation?‑‑‑That wasn't my calculation, but I have asked my work colleague how - - -

PN3591

Somebody else did the calculation for you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3592

So you can't tell us how that number is broken up?‑‑‑Well, I have checked with my work colleague and she said actually it was just a very simple calculation. She has done a sum up of the hours, which is the 1863 hours in that period.

PN3593

Yes?‑‑‑She just used an hourly rate of support worker in Home Ageing Services; just the average rate, $20‑something.

PN3594

Yes?‑‑‑So it came up with this amount.

*** JOYCE WANG XXN MS DOUST

PN3595

Are you saying she just did a calculation of those hours at single time?‑‑‑Yes, because this is - this means if we need to pay them overtime, that means we may need to pay them, like, 150 per cent or 200 per cent.

PN3596

But you can't tell us how that figure was arrived at?‑‑‑No.

PN3597

Are you able to tell us what that amount is, the $42,000, as a proportion of the wages bill each month?‑‑‑No.

PN3598

CASS has a casual workforce that is slightly bigger than the part‑time workforce, doesn't it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3599

Can I ask you this: does the fact that you have this number of part‑time employees in both Home Ageing Services and disability services working more than their contracted hours strike you as a problem?‑‑‑Sorry, can you repeat your question, please.

PN3600

Do you see that as problematic, the number of additional hours required in paragraphs 46 and 47 of your statement?‑‑‑I don't quite really understand what your question is, sorry.

PN3601

Well, the part‑time employees are contracted with a particular number of hours - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3602

- - - but it seems that there is a large number of additional hours that they're being required to work or they're being asked to work and so it's on a voluntary basis, I presume?‑‑‑Yes. Obviously when we receive the client's request, we ask the workers to work more hours.

PN3603

Yes?‑‑‑Only when they agree, we roster them to work the additional hours.

PN3604

Does CASS consider that need to fill so many additional hours a problem in terms of its management of its labour force?‑‑‑For this one we actually have talked to the manager of Home Ageing Services and disability services, but they told me it's very difficult for them because the clients have so many changes. If we guarantee more hours for the part‑time workers, actually we may face the situation we don't have enough work for them in some occasion.

*** JOYCE WANG XXN MS DOUST

PN3605

So I take it from that that CASS hasn't considered as one strategy to deal with this issue increasing the guaranteed hours for part‑time workers?‑‑‑No.

PN3606

I want to ask you about clothing. Do the Home Ageing Services and disability services workers - are they required to wear a uniform?‑‑‑No.

PN3607

They just wear their own clothing?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3608

You accept, don't you, that employees who are doing this sort of work have a greater risk of damage to clothing because of the work that they're doing than compared with, say, an office worker?‑‑‑We do provide them, like, the - what do you call it? - protective equipment, like the gloves and other stuff.

PN3609

Yes?‑‑‑But for, like, the tops and pants, they just wear their own.

PN3610

Yes, but by nature of the type of work they do, there is a risk both of additional staining or wear and tear compared to say if you're working in an office or another environment, isn't there?‑‑‑I don't think we have discussed this. We do provide uniforms to our workers in the residential aged care facility, but not for these two services.

PN3611

I'll just ask you about cancellation, if I might. I am unable to tell from your statement about, when there is a cancellation, in what proportion of instances you're still able to recoup some funding from a funding body. Do you agree with that description of your statement?‑‑‑I'm not quite sure from what proportion we can, yes, retrieve some of the funding for - - -

PN3612

Well, can I put it this way: just because a client cancels a scheduled service doesn't mean that CASS will come away from that empty‑handed, does it?‑‑‑As far as I know - because now the funding is with each client, so we don't have a service provider, we don't hold the funding, so if the client cancelled the service we don't have the income.

PN3613

Where do you say the funding is held in these cases?‑‑‑In the clients.

PN3614

The client holds onto it personally?‑‑‑Yes, that's what I have learned from my work colleagues.

PN3615

Do you say that's the case in respect of disability services and Home Care?‑‑‑Yes.

*** JOYCE WANG XXN MS DOUST

PN3616

All right. Is it the case that you're not particularly familiar with the funding arrangements for the organisation? Is that in someone else's area of responsibility? That's not yours?‑‑‑I'm not handling it and that's what I have heard from them, yes.

PN3617

Okay. All right then. Thank you. Nothing further.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BULL [1.54 PM]

PN3618

MR BULL: Ms Wang, my name is Stephen Bull from United Voice. I just wanted to ask you one question?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3619

In relation to the home care workers and the disability workers, these are your employees that go out into the community and visit persons in need of care or assistance. Now, in answer to some of the questions my friend asked, you said that a lot of material is on an app. That's correct?‑‑‑At a lot of material is what, sorry?

PN3620

Well, they put notes and so forth on an app which is on a mobile phone?‑‑‑I said they need to complete the progress notes, but I'm not quite sure whether they do it through the mobile app or after work they do it at home on computer.

PN3621

Do you provide a mobile phone to your employees that are in the community most of their working day?‑‑‑We don't, but we have the Internet allowance provided to them for using that app.

PN3622

Okay. So you provide a payment to them - - -?‑‑‑Allowance, yes.

PN3623

An allowance?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3624

They can use a tablet?‑‑‑I'm not quite sure. I know they can use a mobile phone. I'm not quite sure whether they can use a tablet.

PN3625

Okay. The allowance is in your agreement?‑‑‑In our enterprise agreement, yes.

PN3626

Okay. Thank you very much.

PN3627

JUSTICE ROSS: Any re‑examination?

*** JOYCE WANG XXN MR BULL

PN3628

MR SCOTT: I think just one question, your Honour.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SCOTT [1.56 PM]

PN3629

MR SCOTT: My friend just referred to the enterprise agreement?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN3630

If you recall, a little while ago you were asked about travel and travel allowances?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN3631

I understood your response to be that CASS paid a travel allowance in certain circumstances that was calculated on the basis of kilometres, but then it was converted into an hourly rate or something similar to that. Is that right?‑‑‑Converted to time.

PN3632

Right?‑‑‑And them times their hourly rate.

PN3633

Can you just clarify whether that allowance is the travelling allowance at clause 6.1 of the enterprise agreement. Is that the allowance you're referring to?‑‑‑Can I have a look?

PN3634

Yes. I'm sorry, your Honour, I've got one copy. I've made some very - - -

PN3635

MR BULL: I've got a spare copy.

PN3636

MR SCOTT: I've just circled the clause, so I've got a marked version. Are you fine with that?

PN3637

MR BULL: Hang on.

PN3638

MR SCOTT: Subject to my friend's assistance.

PN3639

MR BULL: I'm sure it's the right agreement this time.

PN3640

MR SCOTT: I have just circled the relevant clauses and the witness may be able to clarify it.

*** JOYCE WANG RXN MR SCOTT

PN3641

JUSTICE ROSS: Sure.

PN3642

MR SCOTT: The document was produced to the parties in accordance with a request for production prior to the hearing.

PN3643

That's the clause you were referring to earlier?‑‑‑Yes.

PN3644

Thank you. Just one final question. I understand that enterprise agreement is a 2018 enterprise agreement?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN3645

Do you know whether that allowance has been in operation within CASS for some time or is just the first time that that allowance came into effect? Do you know?‑‑‑It has been in place for some time before the enterprise agreement actually.

PN3646

Okay. Thank you. Nothing further.

PN3647

JUSTICE ROSS: Thank you for your evidence. You're excused.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [1.58 PM]

PN3648

JUSTICE ROSS: Anything further?

PN3649

MR SCOTT: I just note - I haven't tendered it. If it assists I'll tender it, but it's referred to in the statement.

PN3650

JUSTICE ROSS: It's a Commission document, in any event.

PN3651

MR SCOTT: That's right. I can't catch Ms Doust's numbers, so - - -

PN3652

JUSTICE ROSS: No, that's right. All right.

PN3653

MS DOUST: I'm the Kipchoge of the tendering world.

*** JOYCE WANG RXN MR SCOTT

PN3654

MR SCOTT: That's all the evidence, as I understand it. I think the proposal was that this afternoon we deal with the tendering of statements of witnesses who are not required for cross‑examination and deal with some of the objections, if there are remaining objections, in relation to those. All the ABI statements have been tendered through the witness because they are all required, so - - -

PN3655

JUSTICE ROSS: Are there any other outstanding objections?

PN3656

MS DOUST: No, your Honour. Can I say this: I think we have sent electronically the HSU's list of outstanding documents and we have allocated numbers sequentially.

PN3657

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes. Well, we will allocate numbers because they don't actually match up with the ones we have already done; but we'll sort that out and publish a consolidated list of exhibits.

PN3658

MS DOUST: We might need liberty to come back if for any reason there is any concern about that.

PN3659

JUSTICE ROSS: Sure.

PN3660

MS DOUST: Or just to write to chambers. Can I indicate this: Mr Ferguson raised with me the situation of - I think it was Ms Wilcock, who is one of our remaining witnesses.

PN3661

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN3662

MS DOUST: She is the only witness in respect of whom there is a live issue in respect of objections. Can I say we don't read paragraph 25 of that statement. Otherwise, I read all the remaining statements in the court book and tender the other documents that are in the court book.

PN3663

JUSTICE ROSS: All right. Does that - - -

PN3664

MR FERGUSON: We are content with the other matters to be dealt with as a matter of weight.

PN3665

JUSTICE ROSS: Okay. It doesn't matter, but I'm not entirely sure why people are tendering material that's in the court book that is not witness statements, but bear in mind if you haven't tendered it and it's in the court book we're going to rely on it unless there is an application to withdraw it, but there hasn't been. There is only one bit that I think has come out.

PN3666

MR SCOTT: Yes, the statement of Mr Collins - - -

PN3667

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN3668

MR SCOTT: - - - which I wrote to your Honour's chambers this morning - or last night. One matter just to clarify it, which hopefully it does clarify rather than do the opposite, early in the week we undertook - there was an issue in relation to the HSU evidence that was tendered during tranche 1 and the fact that some of those matters have been struck out. Your Honour might recall that.

PN3669

I indicated and I undertook to the Commission that we would circulate to the parties and then provide copies of those statements with the relevant parts struck out. We haven't done that yet. We will still do that unless you indicate it's not of assistance.

PN3670

JUSTICE ROSS: No, no, that's fine.

PN3671

MR SCOTT: We will do that so that there is no issue. We weren't proposing to do with the rest of the statement because hopefully that's clear.

PN3672

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN3673

MR SCOTT: It was just the HSU - I think there were six HSU statements from tranche 1.

PN3674

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes. It's clear in relation to the balance because by and large you've tendered documents setting out which bits are not read.

PN3675

MR SCOTT: Yes.

PN3676

JUSTICE ROSS: Just in relation to that, if the HSU can just send a note confirming that para 25 of the statement of Pamela Wilcock is not read.

PN3677

MS DOUST: Ms Wilcock, yes.

PN3678

JUSTICE ROSS: We will be able to put it on the web site so everyone will be able to follow it.

PN3679

MS DOUST: Yes. We might be able to confer with Mr Scott about the previous rulings - - -

PN3680

JUSTICE ROSS: Sure.

PN3681

MR SCOTT: Yes.

PN3682

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes. Let us know if there is any issue arising from any of that. Okay, nothing further?

PN3683

MR SCOTT: Did we resolve the directions - the draft directions for the - - -

PN3684

JUSTICE ROSS: No, well, issue them. We gave you the opportunity to comment and you've said here that you would file them within four weeks of the publication of a background document. We'll take that into account.

PN3685

MR FERGUSON: I think the issue there was that your Honour clarified that the background paper was going to be published after.

PN3686

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes, that's right.

PN3687

MR FERGUSON: The only minor issue to raise is four weeks is fine unless there's going to be some delay with the transcript. I'm not sure how long that - - -

PN3688

JUSTICE ROSS: No, the transcript is on a three‑day order. You should already have it for earlier in the week. We do.

PN3689

MR FERGUSON: Yes.

PN3690

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes, it should be fine. All right. Nothing further? Thanks very much.

ADJOURNED UNTIL TUESDAY, 22 OCTOBER 2019 [2.03 PM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #ABI4 PARTS OF STATEMENTS NOT READ......................... PN2782

GRAHAM JOSEPH SHANAHAN, AFFIRMED............................................ PN2835

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCOTT................................................ PN2835

EXHIBIT #ABI5 STATEMENT OF GRAHAM SHANAHAN - TO BE READ IN CONJUNCTION WITH ABI4........................................................................... PN2842

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DOUST...................................................... PN2843

EXHIBIT #HSU11 HSS PART TIME CONTRACT...................................... PN2864

EXHIBIT #HSU12 NSW HSS FEES................................................................. PN2925

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN2931

DEBORAH GAYE RYAN, AFFIRMED......................................................... PN2945

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCOTT................................................ PN2945

EXHIBIT #ABI6 STATEMENT OF DEB RYAN – TO BE READ IN CONJUNCTION WITH ABI4...................................................................................................................... PN2952

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DOUST...................................................... PN2954

EXHIBIT #HSU13 CROSS EXAMINATION OF DEB RYAN: FULL TIME STAFF TRIAL............................................................................................................................... PN2980

EXHIBIT #HSU14 CROSS EXAMINATION OF DEB RYAN: CCO SCHEDULE OF RATES............................................................................................................................... PN3012

EXHIBIT #HSU15 CROSS EXAMINATION OF DEB RYAN: SAME DAY CANCELLATION LOG – SUBJECT TO CONFIDENTIALITY ORDER................................. PN3040

EXHIBIT #HSU16 COMMUNITY CARE OPTIONS HOME CARE AGREEMENT TEMPLATE (THE INSTRUCTION SHEET IS ONLY THE FIRST PAGE) PN3079

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN3095

SCOTT RAYMOND HARVEY, AFFIRMED................................................ PN3108

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCOTT................................................ PN3108

EXHIBIT #ABI7 STATEMENT OF SCOTT HARVEY – TO BE READ IN CONJUNCTION WITH ABI4.......................................................................................................... PN3115

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DOUST...................................................... PN3116

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN3152

WENDY MASON, AFFIRMED........................................................................ PN3169

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCOTT................................................ PN3169

EXHIBIT #ABI8 STATEMENT OF WENDY MASON – TO BE READ IN CONJUNCTION WITH ABI4.......................................................................................................... PN3176

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DOUST...................................................... PN3190

EXHIBIT #HSU17 CROSS EXAMINATION OF WENDY MASON: PRO FORMA CONTRACT TEMPLATE................................................................................ PN3194

EXHIBIT #HSU18 BAPTIST CARE AGREEMENT NSW & ACT AGED CARE ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT 2017................................................................ PN3219

EXHIBIT #HSU19 BAPTIST CARE COMMONWEALTH HOME SUPPORT PROGRAMME (CHSP) PRO-FORMA SERVICE AGREEMENT......................................... PN3225

EXHIBIT #HSU20 BAPTIST CARE HOME CARE AGREEMENT......... PN3248

EXHIBIT #HSU21 BAPTIST CARE AT HOME PRICE GUIDE 2019...... PN3291

EXHIBIT #HSU22 BAPTIST CARE ANNUAL FINANCIAL REPORT... PN3301

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BULL........................................................ PN3304

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SCOTT............................................................. PN3320

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN3324

EXHIBIT #ASU5 SCHEDULE OF EMPLOYER OBJECTIONS TO STATEMENTS OF EMILY FLETT AND AUGUSTINO ENCABO............................................. PN3380

EXHIBIT #ABI10 FAIR WORK COMMISSION TRANSCRIPT OF 15/07/2016 (AM2014/196 AND AM2014/197)

- CROSS-EXAMINATION OF OLAV MUURLINK (PN6328-PN6468)..... PN3388

EXHIBIT #ABI11 FAIR WORK COMMISSION TRANSCRIPT OF 15/03/2016 (AM2014/196 AND AM2014/197)

- CROSS-EXAMINATION OF SCOTT QUINN (PN1543-PN1738)............. PN3389

EXHIBIT #ABI12 THE NDIS SUPPORT CATALOGUE - OCTOBER 2019-20 PN3390

EXHIBIT #ABI13 THE NDIA EFFICIENT COST MODEL SPREADSHEET (ENTIRE SPREADSHEET)................................................................................................ PN3391

EXHIBIT #ABI9 STATEMENT OF JOYCE WANG – TO BE READ IN CONJUNCTION WITH ABI4.......................................................................................................... PN3392

EXHIBIT #ABI13 PARTS OF WITNESS STATEMENTS NOT READ.... PN3393

EXHIBIT #UV9 BUNDLE OF HOME CARE PRICE GUIDE MATERIALS:

- DOCUMENTS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH GOVERNMENT’S MYAGEDCARE.GOV.AU WEBSITE

- PROVIDER WITNESS PRICE GUIDES DISPLAYED ON MYAGEDCARE

- PROVIDER WITNESS GENERAL PRICE INFORMATION DISPLAYED ON MYAGEDCARE................................................................................................. PN3421

JOYCE WANG, AFFIRMED........................................................................... PN3427

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR SCOTT................................................ PN3427

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DOUST...................................................... PN3435

EXHIBIT #HSU23 CASS FINANCIAL REPORT 30/06/2018...................... PN3455

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BULL........................................................ PN3617

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SCOTT............................................................. PN3628

THE WITNESS WITHDREW.......................................................................... PN3647