PN723

THE COMMISSIONER: Good morning, all. I'll take appearances first in Sydney, while I get my appearance sheet in order.

PN724

MR S SMITH: If the Commission pleases, Smith, initial S, of the Australian Industry Group.

PN725

THE COMMISSIONER: Would you mind speaking up? I'm sorry, I couldn't hear that. Yes, if you could adjust the microphone, that's perfect.

PN726

MR SMITH: Yes, sorry, Smith, initial S, of the Australian Industry Group.

PN727

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Smith. And next to you is Mr Jack, is it?

PN728

MR K JACK: Yes, Commissioner, initial K, from AFEI.

PN729

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. And - - -?

PN730

MS M CHAN: May it please the Commission, Chan, initial M, of Australian Business Loans and Advisors appearing on behalf of ABI and the NSW Business Chamber.

PN731

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Ms Chan. And in Melbourne we have - - -?

PN732

MR M BUTLER: If the Commission pleases, Butler, initial M, for the Association of Professional Engineers, Scientists and Managers, Australia.

PN733

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Butler. And please remain seated for the duration of the conference. The only thing I would ask is if the parties could all - - -

PN734

MR JACK: Excuse me, Commissioner?

PN735

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes?

PN736

MR JACK: Sorry, you just cut out there for a minute.

PN737

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. I said that for the remainder of the conference you may remain seated. I think that would be easier, and if you could place the microphones as close to where you're speaking, that would be helpful. Thank you. Is there anyone else in the Sydney room aside from people observing, there's no one announcing an appearance, I take it?

PN738

MR JACK: No.

PN739

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. This is the third conference, I believe, in the Professional Employees Award, technical and drafting. I intend to, as per the previous two occasions, take the parties through the revised summary of submissions, technical and drafting, dated 17 July, and again, the focus is to first confirm with the parties their agreement, or if not, lack of agreement in terms of what has been recorded in the summary, and I intend to go through those item‑by‑item with a view to hopefully narrowing even further the matters in dispute between the parties or at least clarifying which matters are ultimately still being pressed. Hopefully there aren't that many given that this is the third conference. So I'll go through each item, as I said, item‑by‑item. You all have, I take it, the summary of submissions, technical and drafting, that I'm referring to?

PN740

MR SMITH: Yes, Commissioner.

PN741

MR JACK: Yes, Commissioner.

PN742

MS CHAN: Yes, Commissioner.

PN743

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Butler?

PN744

MR BUTLER: Your Honour - I'm sorry, Commissioner, I've got - my last one is 7 April.

PN745

THE COMMISSIONER: That is an earlier version.

PN746

MR BUTLER: Yes.

PN747

THE COMMISSIONER: The version that I'll be taking the parties to is dated 17 July, and it's a revised summary with feedback from the conference on 31 May. If you don't have that, what I'll do is I'll have my associate print a copy and give that to you.

PN748

MR BUTLER: Perhaps, Commissioner, if I could assist further. The Ai Group and ourselves have met.

PN749

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN750

MR BUTLER: And have prepared a document on what we identified - subject to the process - what we identified as the six outstanding issues arising out of the last conference and as reflected in the draft report issued by the Commission on 21 June.

PN751

THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly, and whilst that's very helpful and I thank you both for doing that, in terms of process, for ease of recording and the preparation of reports by the AMOD team, the process that I've identified is one that I as a matter of course need to go through for the sake of the other parties that may not be here. So to speed up the process, whilst I hear what you say that there might only be six matters, I will go through each item and have the parties confirm on the record their understanding of what's being recorded, and as I said, that's again for the sake of the preparation of a further report. I will now just go off the record for a moment just to give my associate an opportunity to get that copy. Did you follow all that in Sydney? We'll just go off the record for a moment.

PN752

MS CHAN: Thanks, Commissioner.

PN753

MR JACK: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN754

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

OFF THE RECORD [11.42 AM]

ON THE RECORD [11.45 AM]

PN755

THE COMMISSIONER: We're back now. Mr Butler, you have a copy of the document I'm referring to?

PN756

MR BUTLER: Yes, I do, Commissioner.

PN757

THE COMMISSIONER: As I said, I will go through item‑by‑item and ask each of the parties to confirm their understanding of what has been referenced in the summary. When you are making your comments, would you please identify yourself by name and organisation? Again, that's for the sake of the transcript and for whoever's preparing the report. It just makes things a lot simpler, clearer and easier.

PN758

Item 1, the exposure draft has been updated to reflect the change. Do the parties have any comments about that?

PN759

MR BUTLER: Michael Butler, APESMA - APESMA has no comment on that.

PN760

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN761

MR SMITH: It's Smith from Ai Group. No comment, but if I could just make the point, Commissioner, that we haven't had an opportunity yet to carefully check that exposure draft that was issued a few days ago, so with that qualification, we don't have any comment about this one, and it'll be the same for any of the other issues in terms of the finer detail of the exposure draft. We assume there are no problems in there, but we just haven't gone through every word.

PN762

THE COMMISSIONER: Let's proceed on the basis that your comments will be recorded on transcript and on the updated summary, and if there are any issues, then we'll have to deal with them at a later stage.

PN763

MR SMITH: Thank you.

PN764

THE COMMISSIONER: I take your point though that it has only been, has it, a day or two since you received the summary.

PN765

MR SMITH: Yes, Commissioner.

PN766

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Thank you. Item 2 - I'm sorry, item 1, I didn't hear from anyone else in Sydney. Mr Jack?

PN767

MR JACK: Yes, Mr Jack from AFEI. We agree with the summary.

PN768

MS CHAN: Ms Chan for ABI and the Business Chamber. We also agree with the summary.

PN769

THE COMMISSIONER: Item 2?

PN770

MR BUTLER: Michael Butler, APESMA. We understand the matter has been withdrawn.

PN771

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN772

MR SMITH: Smith of Ai Group. That's our understanding as well.

PN773

MR JACK: Mr Jack of AFEI. We agree as well.

PN774

MS CHAN: Ms Chan of ABI and the Business Chamber. We would agree that it has been withdrawn.

PN775

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 3?

PN776

MR BUTLER: Michael Butler, APESMA. We agree that the matter is now resolved, as confirmed in the draft report.

PN777

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN778

MR SMITH: Smith of Ai Group. We agree.

PN779

MR JACK: Jack of AFEI. We agree as well.

PN780

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We would agree with the summary.

PN781

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 4?

PN782

MR BUTLER: Michael Butler, APESMA. APESMA agrees that the issue is resolved and confirmed in the draft report.

PN783

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN784

MR SMITH: It's Smith of Ai Group. We agree.

PN785

MR JACK: Jack of AFEI. We agree.

PN786

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We agree.

PN787

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 5?

PN788

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. APESMA agrees that the matter is resolved and confirmed in the draft report.

PN789

MR SMITH: It's Smith of Ai Group. We agree.

PN790

MR JACK: Jack of AFEI. We agree.

PN791

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We agree with the summary.

PN792

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 6?

PN793

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. APESMA agrees that the matter is resolved and confirmed in the draft report.

PN794

MR SMITH: Smith of Ai Group. We agree.

PN795

MR JACK: Jack of AFEI. We agree as well.

PN796

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We agree with the summary.

PN797

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 7?

PN798

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. APESMA agrees that the matter is confirmed in the draft report.

PN799

MR SMITH: It's Smith of Ai Group. We agree.

PN800

MR JACK: Jack of AFEI. We agree.

PN801

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We agree with the summary.

PN802

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 8?

PN803

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. APESMA agrees that the matter is resolved and confirmed in the draft report.

PN804

MR SMITH: It's Smith of Ai Group. We agree.

PN805

MR JACK: Jack of AFEI. We agree.

PN806

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We similarly agree that the summary is correct.

PN807

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 10?

PN808

MR BUTLER: M Butler. APESMA agrees that - I think it was item 9, I think, wasn't it?

PN809

THE COMMISSIONER: Apologies, item 9, yes.

PN810

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. APESMA agrees that item 9 is resolved and confirmed in the draft report.

PN811

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN812

MR SMITH: Smith of Ai Group. We agree.

PN813

MR JACK: Jack of AFEI. We agree.

PN814

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We similarly agree.

PN815

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. All right, item 10 then?

PN816

MR BUTLER: Commissioner, since the last conference, APESMA has prepared a table which reflects existing award, the membership grades for the scientist stream, and current membership grades, and that document was circulated to the parties.

PN817

THE COMMISSIONER: When was that?

PN818

MR BUTLER: When was that circulated?

PN819

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes?

PN820

MR BUTLER: I'm not 100 per cent sure. It was some weeks ago.

PN821

THE COMMISSIONER: I see. So it's not part of something that happened in the last 24 hours?

PN822

MR BUTLER: No.

PN823

THE COMMISSIONER: I see.

PN824

MR BUTLER: What is part of something that's happened in the last 24 hours is that previously attached to the association's original outline of submissions back on 22 December last year, there was an Attachment A, which reflected the proposed changes to this clause. That has been updated only this morning, after discussions. It has been seen by the Ai Group, but not seen by the other employer parties.

PN825

THE COMMISSIONER: Is that something that has been provided to the Commission?

PN826

MR BUTLER: No, I have it here today.

PN827

THE COMMISSIONER: Literally, I see. Mr Smith, you have a copy of it, do you?

PN828

MR SMITH: I do, Commissioner, and I've also provided copies for the other parties here in Sydney of two documents in fact - the document which I assume Mr Butler has provided, which is the one that has various draft clauses and the table on the back, and then there's a second document, which is a marked‑up version of the definitions out of the award. There are three pieces of paper in total.

PN829

THE COMMISSIONER: In terms of what's been provided, Mr Butler, in the last 24 hours or whether it's this morning as well, is it one document, two or three?

PN830

MR BUTLER: There are three documents. There's a document that I alluded to at the beginning of the conference that identifies the six outstanding issues.

PN831

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you have them here?

PN832

MR BUTLER: Yes, I do.

PN833

THE COMMISSIONER: Could I just get my associate to get a copy for me?

PN834

MR BUTLER: Yes. And attached to this document, Commissioner, is a copy of the table, which has been previously circulated.

PN835

THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps if I just have a look at it, and then I may ask you a few questions. So there are three pieces of paper. The first is dated 19 July 2017, headed, "Exposure draft, Professional Employees Award 2016, draft clauses," and it contains items on it ranging from item 10 through to 31 and 35.

PN836

MR BUTLER: Yes.

PN837

THE COMMISSIONER: Is that piece of paper something that has just been provided to the parties in Sydney in the last 24 hours?

PN838

MR BUTLER: Yes, Commissioner.

PN839

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN840

MR BUTLER: Yes, it's a joint document that was discussed.

PN841

THE COMMISSIONER: No, that's fine. I just want to make sure I identify clearly what I'm dealing with.

PN842

MR BUTLER: Yes.

PN843

THE COMMISSIONER: The second piece of paper I have is headed, "Exposure draft, clause 2.4, scientist stream - academic schedule membership grades."

PN844

MR BUTLER: Yes.

PN845

THE COMMISSIONER: 2.4(b), 2.4(c), 2.4(d).

PN846

MR BUTLER: Yes.

PN847

THE COMMISSIONER: And it goes over the page to 2.4(e) and 2.4(f).

PN848

MR BUTLER: Yes.

PN849

THE COMMISSIONER: Are those two pages something that are recent revisions?

PN850

MR BUTLER: These two pages were circulated some weeks ago.

PN851

THE COMMISSIONER: Weeks ago, all right.

PN852

MR BUTLER: I don't recall the exact date.

PN853

THE COMMISSIONER: No problem, I understand.

PN854

MR BUTLER: And just for clarity, Commissioner, there's a further document which was prepared this morning.

PN855

THE COMMISSIONER: Who's got that document?

PN856

MR BUTLER: The Ai Group - Mr Smith has that, and he would have distributed that to his colleagues - - -

PN857

THE COMMISSIONER: Could you provide that to my associate now?

PN858

MR BUTLER: Yes.

PN859

THE COMMISSIONER: And we'll have a look at that.

PN860

MR BUTLER: Perhaps if I could say, Commissioner, this document is just simply to show how a revised clause would look, but I think, as it was only prepared this morning, we - --

PN861

THE COMMISSIONER: No, we'll get to that in a minute.

PN862

MR BUTLER: Yes.

PN863

THE COMMISSIONER: The next document I have is two pages, and it's headed, "Attachment A," and it appears to be a marked‑up copy of 2.4, scientist stream, through to 3.5. It is two pages. I'd like to confirm with the parties in Sydney that what I have expressed as the documents that have been provided to me in Melbourne are what the parties have in Sydney.

PN864

MR SMITH: Commissioner - Smith from Ai Group - the parties in Sydney have - whether that's two documents or three documents, we have those documents. The table - - -

PN865

THE COMMISSIONER: The ones that I have articulated the way I have, whether you wish to call them one, two or three, but I went through very clearly and articulated what the pages were, do you agree that you are looking at the same things?

PN866

MR SMITH: We agree, or the Ai Group certainly agrees.

PN867

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. What about the other parties in Sydney?

PN868

MR JACK: Yes, Commissioner - AFEI agrees.

PN869

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI, we agree that we have the documents as well.

PN870

THE COMMISSIONER: Having said that, do the parties in Sydney need time to consider what's in those documents further? Is that something that should happen today, or is it something I should leave with the parties to have further discussions about? I'm really in your hands as to how to move forward.

PN871

MR SMITH: Commissioner, Smith from Ai Group, what we would suggest is, given that those documents were only prepared this morning and arose out of discussions that were only finalised this morning, even though we provided the documents to the other employer parties, we would suggest of course that the other parties have the opportunity to consider those agreed provisions and provide any comments that they wish. But we wouldn't see that necessarily needing to happen today.

PN872

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm happy to proceed on that basis. I raised the issue with you so that I can understand the parties' position. I'm certainly not inclined to force anybody to respond to these this morning without having an opportunity to consider them properly and get some instructions and have further discussions if necessary. But I raised it because if the parties in Sydney were to say to me that they're more than happy to discuss the matters today, then obviously I'd be happy to hear. So I've heard what you have to say, Mr Smith, and maybe now if I could hear from Mr Jack and Ms Chan.

PN873

MR JACK: Yes, Jack from AFEI. Commissioner, in relation to the document, there is a number of things on there which we can agree to today. Others we will need further consideration to, and one of those is item 10. I just understand that my colleague, Ms Chan, does have one concern with what's been circulated. But in relation to some of the other items on the first document, I don't know if it's necessary for us - I won't need to seek any further instructions in relation to some of those.

PN874

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Jack, would you like then to put on the record your position in relation to item 10 of the summary of issues and the documents that have been provided by Mr Butler? At the conclusion of today's conference, then the summary will be amended to reflect your comments, and what will happen from there is Mr Smith obviously will be given time to consider his position, and he can either liaise with Mr Butler over the course of the next few weeks, depending on what comes out of today, and/or provide his comments in writing to the parties. So are you happy to proceed on that basis?

PN875

MR JACK: Yes, Commissioner, I'm happy with that approach.

PN876

THE COMMISSIONER: All right then, Mr Jack, why don't you tell us then what you have to say about item 10 and the documents provided by Mr Butler?

PN877

MR JACK: We would agree with what's there and we have no suggested amendments; however, we would like to hear from Ms Chan from ABI, who I know has just this morning identified one concern.

PN878

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Jack. Ms Chan?

PN879

MS CHAN: Yes, Commissioner, Chan for ABI. In relation to item 10, the only I guess current membership grade that we would query is the one that falls under 2.4(d). It's in relation to the membership required for an experienced scientist who is a member of the Australasian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy. The table currently illustrates that the current membership grade required is an associate member. From my understanding, and I've just got the AIMM web page open right now, an associate membership is actually available to somebody who doesn't have formal qualifications and would only have two years of relevant industry experience. If that is then - - -

PN880

THE COMMISSIONER: Just so I'm clear, Ms Chan - apologies for interrupting you, but are you talking about the reference in 2.5(d), the document that goes through the academic schedule membership grades?

PN881

MS CHAN: Yes.

PN882

THE COMMISSIONER: And it starts with 2.4(b), then goes on to (c) and (d)?

PN883

MS CHAN: Yes.

PN884

THE COMMISSIONER: In the column related to 2.4(d), it talks about the Australian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy - the qualified scientist column says the award membership grade, the current in the award - the current is graduate member; the award is junior member and corporate member, whereas the experienced scientist is associate member in both cases. Is that where you're - - -?

PN885

MS CHAN: Yes, the table.

PN886

THE COMMISSIONER: And you're suggesting that the associate member qualification for an experienced scientist may not be appropriate, is that the tenor of your - - -?

PN887

MS CHAN: Yes, that's correct. Yes, in our submission it would be a member who would satisfy the requirements under 2.4, not an associate member.

PN888

THE COMMISSIONER: Because an associate member is, if I could put it in a very colloquial way, but it's a lower type, is it?

PN889

MS CHAN: Yes, they're not qualified professionals, whereas a member would be and would have attained a relevant tertiary degree.

PN890

THE COMMISSIONER: So you'd be suggesting a change to that clause?

PN891

MS CHAN: Yes.

PN892

THE COMMISSIONER: To take out the word "associate" and leave "member?"

PN893

MS CHAN: Yes, Commissioner.

PN894

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Jack, would you agree with that?

PN895

MR JACK: Commissioner, we need more time to consider that.

PN896

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Ms Chan, are there any other things that you'd like to raise in relation to that course?

PN897

MS CHAN: No, Commissioner. Subject to that one particular change, we are otherwise happy with the current membership grades for the other subclauses.

PN898

THE COMMISSIONER: So the summary can be amended to record your comments there, so subject to that change, the rest you are satisfied with. Mr Jack, you need to consider your position in relation to that 2.5(d) clause?

PN899

MR JACK: Yes, Commissioner.

PN900

THE COMMISSIONER: And Mr Smith, you need to consider your position generally in relation to item 10?

PN901

MR SMITH: Commissioner, we were happy with item 10, but given that issue that Ms Chan has raised, we would like to investigate that issue, because as we understand it, the understanding with APESMA is that there wouldn't be any watering down of any of these membership grades, so it may be that this is just a - you know, it may be that there's an error that has been made. But we'll investigate this point and - - -

PN902

THE COMMISSIONER: What I'm trying to get a better sense of though is whether or not your consideration will be confined to 2.5(d), or whether or not you're saying that you'd like an opportunity to consider the material that has identified today as having been put forward by Mr Butler.

PN903

MR SMITH: Commissioner, we only need to consider this one point.

PN904

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN905

MR SMITH: Just paragraph (d).

PN906

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. So the summary of issues then can reflect that you're content with everything that's been put forward in relation to item 10, save for potentially 2.5(d) which you'd like to consider further?

PN907

MR SMITH: That's correct, Commissioner.

PN908

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Having heard all that, Mr Butler, is there anything you'd like to add?

PN909

MR BUTLER: Only to say, just to repeat, it's not our intention to water down qualifications, so if there's an error that's been made, yes, we'll certainly check it.

PN910

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Is there anything else anyone needs to say in relation to item 10 before I move on?

PN911

MR JACK: No, Commissioner.

PN912

MS CHAN: Ms Chan. No, Commissioner.

PN913

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN914

MR SMITH: No, Commissioner.

PN915

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, item 11?

PN916

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. Issue resolved and confirmed in draft report.

PN917

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN918

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN919

MR JACK: Jack for AFEI. We agree.

PN920

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We similarly agree.

PN921

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 12?

PN922

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. Issue resolved and confirmed in draft report.

PN923

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN924

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. We agree.

PN925

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We similarly agree.

PN926

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 13?

PN927

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. APESMA agrees that the issues are resolved and are confirmed in draft report.

PN928

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN929

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. We agree.

PN930

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We agree with our colleague.

PN931

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 14?

PN932

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. Issue withdrawn and confirmed in draft report.

PN933

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN934

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. We agree.

PN935

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We agree the summary is accurate.

PN936

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 15?

PN937

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. Issue resolved and confirmed in draft report.

PN938

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN939

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. We agree.

PN940

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We similarly agree.

PN941

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 16?

PN942

MR BUTLER: Commissioner, insofar as APESMA and the Ai Group are concerned I understand that this is no longer an issue. In fact, this deals with the facilitative provisions and transfer of staff. But that's an APESMA/Ai Group position. I can't speak for the other parties.

PN943

THE COMMISSIONER: But you're putting forward a position that APESMA and AiG are no longer - - -?

PN944

MR BUTLER: In dispute.

PN945

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - in dispute?

PN946

MR BUTLER: Yes.

PN947

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN948

MR SMITH: It's Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN949

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. So AFEI had previously agreed with AiG's positon in relation to this dispute. I've had a discussion with my colleague earlier and we're no longer in dispute, I guess, so we would agree with the position of AiG and APESMA.

PN950

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN951

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. I believe at the last conference we did indicate that we were supportive of AiG's initial submission in relation to this, but we would not be opposed to the position that's been reached by AiG and APESMA today, which is for 13.7 to be included.

PN952

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 17?

PN953

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. Proposed variation agreed and is in draft report.

PN954

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN955

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. We agree.

PN956

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We would also agree.

PN957

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 18?

PN958

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. Issue resolved and confirmed in draft report.

PN959

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN960

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. We agree.

PN961

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We would similarly agree.

PN962

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 19?

PN963

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. Issue resolved by it being withdrawn.

PN964

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN965

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN966

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. We agree.

PN967

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We would also agree.

PN968

THE COMMISSIONER: Item 20?

PN969

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. Issue resolved and confirmed in draft report.

PN970

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN971

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. We agree.

PN972

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We also agree with that position.

PN973

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 21?

PN974

MR BUTLER: Commissioner, APESMA has had further discussions with the Ai Group on this issue and there's wording that's been agreed that's contained in the document which is headed, "Exposure draft, Professional Employees Award 2016 draft clause." The only caveat that we would put on that is that we would reserve our right to come back after we see the full implementation of the casual Full Bench.

PN975

THE COMMISSIONER: That's a broader issue, and it's safe to say - I hate to say it but I imagine you won't be alone in that view.

PN976

MR BUTLER: Yes.

PN977

THE COMMISSIONER: It's not specific necessarily to this issue.

PN978

MR BUTLER: No.

PN979

THE COMMISSIONER: The other parties?

PN980

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree with that position.

PN981

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. We've only seen this document this morning; however, we're not opposed to what's been proposed to be inserted.

PN982

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. Similarly to my colleagues at AFEI, we have only seen the document this morning. From what I can see I don't believe we will be opposing this position, but I would just like the opportunity to confirm instructions.

PN983

THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Chan, on item 21, the summary will record that whilst you don't anticipate necessarily any problems at first blush, you do wish to get some instructions.

PN984

MS CHAN: Yes, Commissioner.

PN985

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 22?

PN986

MR BUTLER: Commissioner, this matter deals with the hours of work provision and the averaging of hours of work. Again, APESMA and the Ai Group have agreed on wording, but this wording has not been seen until this morning by the other parties.

PN987

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Mr Butler, do I take it that you need more time?

PN988

MR BUTLER: No, the wording is agreed.

PN989

THE COMMISSIONER: As far as you're concerned?

PN990

MR BUTLER: Yes.

PN991

THE COMMISSIONER: You're saying you're putting that to me on the basis that it's only been provided - - -

PN992

MR BUTLER: Yes.

PN993

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I misunderstood you. I thought it was your wording and I thought well - - -

PN994

MR BUTLER: No, sorry.

PN995

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you.

PN996

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree with this wording.

PN997

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. This is a matter that we would need to get further instructions on given we've only just seen this wording this morning.

PN998

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN999

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. Similar to item 21, I do not anticipate that we would oppose this wording, but I would like the opportunity to obtain further instructions.

PN1000

THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly. The summary issues will be amended to reflect that item 22 is something that the parties need to get further instructions about. Item 23?

PN1001

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. APESMA agrees that that matter is resolved and confirmed in the draft report.

PN1002

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN1003

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. We agree.

PN1004

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We agree that the matter is resolved.

PN1005

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 24?

PN1006

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. This matter has been withdrawn and it's confirmed in the draft report.

PN1007

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN1008

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. We agree.

PN1009

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We agree that the matter is resolved.

PN1010

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 24?

PN1011

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. This matter has been withdrawn and it's confirmed in the draft report.

PN1012

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN1013

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. We agree.

PN1014

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We would agree.

PN1015

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 25?

PN1016

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. This matter has been resolved and confirmed in the draft report.

PN1017

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN1018

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. We agree.

PN1019

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We would agree that this has bene resolved.

PN1020

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 26?

PN1021

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. This matter has been agreed and confirmed in the draft report, subject to checking of the casual rates by the parties.

PN1022

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN1023

MR SMITH: It's Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN1024

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. We agree.

PN1025

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We would agree with APESMA's position.

PN1026

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 27?

PN1027

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. The APESMA claim has been withdrawn and that's confirmed in the draft report.

PN1028

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN1029

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. We agree.

PN1030

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We would agree.

PN1031

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 28?

PN1032

MR BUTLER: Commissioner, this matter deals with the vehicle allowance provision, and again, this is one of the matters that was in dispute. But the Ai Group and APESMA have reached agreed wording, but again, the other parties have not seen the wording until this morning.

PN1033

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN1034

MR SMITH: It's Smith from Ai Group. We agree with that.

PN1035

MR JACK: Jack from - - -

PN1036

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, apologies - before you go, Mr Jack - Mr Smith, do I take it then that as far as you're concerned the summary should be amended to reflect that you need further instructions in relation to item 27?

PN1037

MR SMITH: No. From Ai Group's point of view, Commissioner - - -

PN1038

MR BUTLER: Twenty eight.

PN1039

MR SMITH: Item 28 - we have agreed with APESMA on that wording that's in the document dated 19 July.

PN1040

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Jack?

PN1041

MR JACK: Mr Jack from AFEI. Although this is wording that we have only seen this morning, we have had discussions about this clause in the past and the wording that I have seen appears to resolve the issues. So we would agree with the wording that's been proposed.

PN1042

THE COMMISSIONER: Did you say we've agreed?

PN1043

MR JACK: Yes, we agree with the wording.

PN1044

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Ms Chan?

PN1045

MS CHAN: Yes, Commissioner, similar to items 21 and 22, I again don't anticipate that my clients will be opposing the wording that has been proposed, but I would just like to confirm my instructions on that point.

PN1046

THE COMMISSIONER: So Ms Chan, you would seek some further instructions?

PN1047

MS CHAN: Yes, Commissioner.

PN1048

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Thank you. Item 29?

PN1049

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. This matter has been confirmed in the draft report, and we agree with that.

PN1050

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN1051

MR JACK: Jack for AFEI. We agree.

PN1052

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We would agree.

PN1053

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 30?

PN1054

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. The AiG proposal is agreed and is confirmed in the draft report.

PN1055

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN1056

MR JACK: Jack for AFEI. We agree.

PN1057

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We would similarly agree.

PN1058

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 31?

PN1059

MR BUTLER: Commissioner, the Ai Group and ourselves have dealt with items 31 to 35 together and have agreed on draft wording that's reflected in the document titled, "19 July," to cover all of those items.

PN1060

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Smith, you agree with that?

PN1061

MR SMITH: We do, Commissioner, and we agree with the wording that's in that document.

PN1062

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Jack?

PN1063

MR JACK: Commissioner, again, this is something that we've only seen this morning; however, the wording does appear to resolve the issue that AFEI had raised at item 31, and otherwise we're not opposed to the wording that's in there. So we would agree.

PN1064

THE COMMISSIONER: Just so I'm clear, it's been put by Mr Butler that his position is in respect of items 31 through to 35. Mr Smith agreed with Mr Butler in terms of what was put. What I'd like to hear from you, Mr Jack, in relation to the totality of those items, what is the position that you'd like to have recorded?

PN1065

MR JACK: We would agree that the proposed wording resolves all of those items, and we would agree to the proposed wording.

PN1066

THE COMMISSIONER: All those items?

PN1067

MR JACK: Yes, Commissioner.

PN1068

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Thank you. Ms Chan?

PN1069

MS CHAN: Yes, Commissioner. We would agree that the wording does seem consistent with what has been discussed, and on that basis I don't anticipate that we would oppose, but again I would just like to obtain further instructions just to confirm that.

PN1070

THE COMMISSIONER: Item 36?

PN1071

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. The claim has been withdrawn and this is confirmed in the draft report.

PN1072

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN1073

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN1074

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. We agree.

PN1075

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We similarly agree.

PN1076

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 37?

PN1077

MR BUTLER: M Butler, APESMA. This matter is agreed and it's reflected in the draft report.

PN1078

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN1079

MR SMITH: Smith from Ai Group. We agree.

PN1080

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. We agree.

PN1081

MS CHAN: Chan for ABI. We agree.

PN1082

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. That appears to be the totality of the items. I'll just recap briefly the parties to ensure that my recording of the matters is as the parties agree. What is remaining on the table for consideration is item 10 in relation to clause 2.4(d), and Mr Jack, Mr Smith and Ms Chan, you are going to seek instructions in relation to that item and report back. Is that correct?

PN1083

MS CHAN: Yes, Commissioner.

PN1084

MR JACK: Yes, Commissioner.

PN1085

MR SMITH: Yes, Commissioner, and from Ai Group's point of view we would also like to hear APESMA's position on that given the comments of Mr Butler that there may have been an error - you know, it just needs to be checked.

PN1086

THE COMMISSIONER: I understood Mr Butler to be putting forward a position - but perhaps I'll hear from Mr Butler then. I might have misunderstood.

PN1087

MR BUTLER: Just in response to this particular issue, yes, we will check the document and if there's an error there then we'll certainly acknowledge that, and just reiterate our position that the last thing that we want to see is any watering down of vocations under this award.

PN1088

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Mr Smith, are you satisfied with that response, or is there something further you require?

PN1089

MR SMITH: Commissioner, that's fine. We'll check the issue ourselves, but we would also like to hear APESMA's position, which no doubt Mr Butler will circulate.

PN1090

MR BUTLER: Yes, definitely - yes.

PN1091

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Item 21, Ms Chan, you wish to get some instructions, notwithstanding that you've put on the record that you don't anticipate any problems?

PN1092

MS CHAN: That's correct, Commissioner.

PN1093

THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly you are going to get instructions and if there is an issue then you can raise it. Item 22, the parties need to obtain some further instructions?

PN1094

MR JACK: Yes, Commissioner.

PN1095

MS CHAN: Yes, Commissioner.

PN1096

MR SMITH: Commissioner, from Ai Group's point of view, that is agreed between Ai Group and APESMA. It's just the other two employer parties that need to obtain instructions.

PN1097

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Item 28, Ms Chan, you need to obtain some further instructions?

PN1098

MS CHAN: Yes, Commissioner.

PN1099

THE COMMISSIONER: And items 31 through to 35, Ms Chan, you need to obtain some further instructions?

PN1100

MS CHAN: Yes, Commissioner.

PN1101

THE COMMISSIONER: Aside from those matters, there are no other items that need to be dealt with in relation to this award. So the next question is how you'd like to proceed in relation to the dealing of the matters that you need to follow up. If you could indicate - Ms Chan, is 14 days sufficient to get some instructions?

PN1102

MS CHAN: Yes, Commissioner, 14 days would be sufficient.

PN1103

THE COMMISSIONER: And circulate your views to the parties?

PN1104

MS CHAN: Yes.

PN1105

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Jack, Mr Smith, do you need any more than 14 days for those aspects of the claim that you need to get instructions on?

PN1106

MR SMITH: It's Smith from Ai Group. That time is sufficient, Commissioner. Thank you.

PN1107

MR JACK: Jack from AFEI. That's sufficient for us as well.

PN1108

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Butler, if there's anything you need to add in terms of the interchange you had with Mr Smith about those issues, then is 14 days sufficient for you?

PN1109

MR BUTLER: Yes, more than sufficient, Commissioner.

PN1110

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. If the parties could undertake to get those instructions within 14 days, report back to each other and to the Commission. If as I anticipate there are no outstanding matters, then after that time the summary of issues will be updated and that will be the end of the conferences in relation to the Professional Employees Award, technical and drafting; unless there's anything further the parties wish to raise.

PN1111

MR SMITH: Commissioner, Smith from Ai Group, with that 14‑day period, we'll also check the exposure draft in the context of those items, and if there are any issues we will advise the other parties.

PN1112

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you - very good point. Thank you, Mr Smith, that's very sensible.

PN1113

MR BUTLER: Also, Commissioner, APESMA will do the same. We haven't had the chance to look at it forensically.

PN1114

THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly, I think that's very important, and if you could all undertake to do that, that would be very helpful.

PN1115

MS CHAN: Yes, Commissioner.

PN1116

THE COMMISSIONER: Is there anything else anyone needs to say in relation to this award before I adjourn?

PN1117

MR JACK: Not from AFEI, Commissioner.

PN1118

MS CHAN: Nothing from ABI, Commissioner.

PN1119

MR SMITH: And nothing from Ai Group, Commissioner.

PN1120

MR BUTLER: Nothing from APESMA.

PN1121

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you all. We will adjourn.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [12.27 PM]