PN1

THE VICE PRESIDENT: We will take the appearances in Melbourne.

PN2

MS L SVENDSEN: Svendsen, initial L, for the Health Services Union. Thank you, your Honour.

PN3

MR A McCARTHY: If the Commission pleases, McCarthy, initial A, for the Australian Nursing and Midwifery Federation.

PN4

MS E GUARINO: If it pleases the Commission, Guarino, initial E, for the Chiropractors Association of Australia.

PN5

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you. We will go to Newcastle.

PN6

MR K SCOTT: If the Commission pleases, Scott, initial K. I seek permission to appear on behalf of Australian Business Industrial and the New South Wales Business Chamber.

PN7

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you. We then go to Brisbane.

PN8

MS L FISHER: If the Commission pleases, Fisher, Lucy, on behalf of the Private Hospital Industry Employers Association.

PN9

MS K MURPHY: If the Commission pleases, Murphy, initial K, for the Dental Hygienists Association of Australia.

PN10

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you. We will then go to Sydney.

PN11

MR D WILKINSON: Wilkinson, initial D, on behalf of the Australian Dental Association, if the Commission pleases.

PN12

MS R BHATT: If the Commission pleases, Bhatt, initial R, appearing on behalf of the Australian Industry Group.

PN13

MS E PATTON: If the Commission pleases, Patton, initial E, from Leading Age Services Australia Ltd.

PN14

MR G LIGGINS: If the Commission pleases, Liggins, initial G, from Aged and Community Services Australia.

PN15

MR J MILJAK: If the Commission pleases, Miljak, initial J, on behalf of the Australian Federation of Employers and Industries.

PN16

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you. That completes the appearances. On the last occasion we looked at the timetable and there were extensions to the timetable to put on the evidence and the submissions. Are there any parties who are in default of the timetable at the moment?

PN17

MS BHATT: Yes, Vice President. It's Ms Bhatt here for Ai Group. Before we proceed, I should say that we can't see Melbourne at all. Your associate is in the room and I'm sure that is being addressed, but as long as your Honour is happy to proceed, I am.

PN18

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, I can see. We'll fix up cameras.

PN19

MS BHATT: All right. Thank you, Vice President. Ai Group, along with other respondent parties, were given an extension of time to file their material until yesterday. Ai Group has filed submissions in reply in relation to the Nurses Award. However, regrettably, we are not in a position to file our material in relation to the Health Professionals and Support Services Award. We will not be filing any evidence. I anticipate that we will be in a position to file our submissions towards the end of this week and we seek the Commission's leave to be able to do so.

PN20

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. That won't be a problem, given the hearing date.

PN21

MS BHATT: Thank you, Vice President.

PN22

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Is there anyone else who has still got material outstanding?

PN23

MR WILKINSON: Yes, Vice President. Wilkinson, on behalf of the Australian Dental Association. I had spoken to your associate, Josh Martin, this morning. We have still got submissions in reply to be lodged and we had sought a little bit of an extension, as well, because we have witness statements that have not been concluded due to a Dental Congress being on interstate and haven't been able to finalise responses from those that are giving us evidence in witness statements. We hope to have it all finalised by today. We're working on those people now, to follow them up. If not, it will be in the next day or so, if the Commission pleases. Thank you.

PN24

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. Anyone else?

PN25

MR LIGGINS: Vice President, aged care employers are still trying to finalise some witness statements which we hope to have by the end of the week. We just had difficulty in finalising them.

PN26

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Right. Anyone else?

PN27

MS MURPHY: Vice President, Miljak, for the AFEI. Similarly, we would just seek perhaps to the end of the week to be able to finalise our submissions.

PN28

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, okay. All right. I don't know what has happened then.

PN29

MS SVENDSEN: It's Brisbane and Newcastle. No, it's not, it's Newcastle and Adelaide.

PN30

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Have we lost someone?

PN31

MS SVENDSEN: Newcastle, we'll lost. Adelaide, there was nobody there.

PN32

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Right. We seem to have lost Newcastle.

PN33

MR SCOTT: I'm still here.

PN34

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Very good. Thank you, Mr Scott.

PN35

MS FISHER: Your Honour, it's Brisbane here. Are you able to hear us, because we can't see you at all now.

PN36

THE VICE PRESIDENT: We can hear you.

PN37

MS FISHER: Okay, fine. Thank you.

PN38

THE VICE PRESIDENT: We will see whether we can see you shortly. What I propose to do then is that I'll extend the timetable for filing of material and I'll make it until Friday, 9 June, to avoid any problems. What I would then like the parties to do is to have discussions amongst themselves in relation to the witness statements, particularly in relation to whether there are any objections to witness statements. I will give a period of time.

PN39

I'll set this up a bit more formally as formal directions so that if the parties can have discussions and reach a landing as to which matters they want to have that are outstanding in terms of objections to evidence. I will then refer the matter for a conference before Gooley DP to deal with those outstanding objections in relation to evidence. If that can't be resolved, then obviously the Full Bench will have to deal with them thereafter, but hopefully following discussions between the parties and then a conference before Gooley DP, we can reach that landing.

PN40

Remember that we are running a modern award review and issues as to weight, for example, you can make that submission, but the statement doesn't go in. You can make a comment and say, "Objection as to weight", et cetera. It's ultimately a question of weight on some of these things without taking the objection as to its admissibility necessarily as being a killer point. You know, in having your discussions be relatively practical in terms of reducing any objections that need to otherwise be dealt with.

PN41

Now that all the material is, in a broad sense, filed apart from a little bit of witness evidence, does that have any impact on anybody's view in terms of the hearing dates? Is everybody satisfied? I'll take silence as being satisfaction.

PN42

MS FISHER: Your Honour, it's Lucy Fisher in Brisbane. Just a query as to whether any thoughts have been given by the parties as to which award is going to be held first. Like, there are four days in November and five in December.

PN43

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I don't remember whether the parties had that discussion or if that's one of the things they were to discuss.

PN44

MS SVENDSEN: We have had some informal discussions out of session with PHIEA and I, just this afternoon, advised Mr McCarthy of the content of those discussions which was loosely about the nurses' matters being probably shorter and that maybe starting with the nurses would be a better idea. The Health Professionals has three matters that I think will be substantive, although the APESMA claim for a new classification is the most weighty. I'm not sure if that's going to be listed separately or not. I just make that point.

PN45

The other two matters in Health Professionals are the issues - plural - around the span of hours clause and the issue around the list of common health professionals; whether that is exhaustive or indicative. At this stage I would suggest that the evidence and material that has been filed, it would suggest a maximum of a day each and I don't think it would take that long, frankly.

PN46

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right. What I propose to do then is that in relation to making the directions, it will be referred to Gooley DP where she will deal with the objections. At that point the parties should also finalise discussions in relation to the order of witnesses and the order of the hearing so we can move things along in a very smooth way.

PN47

MS SVENDSEN: That would be good.

PN48

THE VICE PRESIDENT: It would be good, when you do have those discussions, that you actually stick to them, not like recent events where parties turn up on day one and then one party decides to change the order of witnesses and it puts everybody out. Please bear that in mind, when you reach an agreement on the order of witnesses, that we do try to stick it to. Any other interlocutory matters that people wish to raise?

PN49

MS BHATT: Vice President, if I may, we're of course quite content for the programming of the hearing to be the subject of discussions between the parties in any conference or prior to any conference before Gooley DP, but I think that in order to have that discussion an assessment needs to be made by the relevant parties as to which of the witnesses, if any, will in fact be required for cross‑examination. I think that will colour to a very significant degree how the matter is to be programmed and the number of days of hearing that might be required.

PN50

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. I take that as a given that the parties, if they don't wish to have any cross‑examination, would ordinarily tell each other as part of that conference process.

PN51

MS BHATT: If I can ask this, Vice President: is there any view as to when the matter might be listed for conference before Gooley DP in a loose sense?

PN52

THE VICE PRESIDENT: It would not be until after the expiry of, first of all, the timetable for the material, then two or three weeks after that to allow the parties to have formal discussions. I would imagine that we're talking about July dates. Not before July.

PN53

MS BHATT: If the Commission pleases.

PN54

THE VICE PRESIDENT: That gives plenty of opportunity to have those discussions and reach a landing.

PN55

MS BHATT: Yes.

PN56

THE VICE PRESIDENT: We don't start the hearing until 27 November, in any event. All right. Anything else? I will see you all at the hearing. The Commission is adjourned.

ADJOURNED UNTIL MONDAY, 27 NOVEMBER 2017 [1.28 PM]