PN1

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Can I take the appearances, starting in Sydney, please?

PN2

MR A AMBI: May it please the Commission, Ambi, initial A. I appear on behalf of the CEPU.

PN3

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you. Maxwell.

PN4

MR S MAXWELL: If it please, Maxwell, initial S, for the CFMMEU.

PN5

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN6

MR G MILLER: May it please, it's Miller, initial G, appearing for the AMWU with my colleague Mr Grealy, initial N.

PN7

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, thank you.

PN8

MR S CRAWFORD: If it pleases the Commission, Crawford, initial S, for the AWU.

PN9

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN10

MR S MCGREGOR: May it please the Commission, McGregor, initial S, for the Master Builders Association.

PN11

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: And in Melbourne, Ms Paul, you appear for AiG.

PN12

MS PAUL: Yes, your Honour. Your Honour, may I just ask for the parties to speak into the mic? It's a bit hard to hear in Melbourne.

PN13

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. We'll try to turn up the volume. Ms Adler, you appear for the HIA in Canberra, do you?

PN14

MS L ADLER: Yes, your Honour, with my colleague Regan, initial L, in Brisbane.

PN15

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: And, Ms Zhou, you appear for ABI New South Wales Business Chamber in Brisbane. Is that right?

PN16

MS ZHOU: That is correct, your Honour.

PN17

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The principal purpose of today is just to program the balance of the hearing that's been set down for 4 and 5 March in Melbourne. Pursuant to the directions issued on 15 January, unless someone corrects me, no party filed any witness statements in response to the further witness statements filed by the AMWU and the AWU, therefore the only outstanding matter to be dealt with is any possible cross‑examination in respect of those witness statements.

PN18

Can the employer parties indicate which, if any, of the makers of those witness statements are required for cross‑examination, perhaps starting in Sydney with you, Mr McGregor?

PN19

MR MCGREGOR: If it please the Commission, we seek to cross‑examine all the witnesses that are being proposed by both the AMWU and the AWU.

PN20

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: How long do you think it will take to cross‑examine those witnesses?

PN21

MR MCGREGOR: I don't think that it's going to take a drastic amount of time. I certainly don't think it's going to take the full two days, but in saying that, with respect to cross‑examinations I think it's still probably going to take a few hours, and I can't hang my hat on whether it's going to therefore cross over two days for hearing, if that's really where we're going with that question.

PN22

It would really depend on how the other matters are dealt with that, I suppose, flow from cross‑examinations, how we make submissions, whether that be oral or written after the fact.

PN23

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I'm not sure that submissions are necessary. This is only to deal with an issue that was raised by, I think, your organisation and the HIA and maybe the AiG about these witness statements.

PN24

MR MCGREGOR: I'd be in the hands of the Commission how long they'd like to set aside for it and we can work within that time frame, but equally I think we're looking in the region of about 10 witnesses in total.

PN25

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think it's ‑ ‑ ‑

PN26

MR CRAWFORD: We've got five, I think.

PN27

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: It's seven, I think.

PN28

MS ADLER: Seven.

PN29

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Seven in total. So I think I've got one from the AMWU and six from the AWU. Thank you for that. Ms Adler, does your organisation also seek to cross‑examine the witnesses?

PN30

MS ADLER: Not at this stage, your Honour. Notwithstanding what might come up on the day, we would not seek to repeat, obviously, what other groups raise during cross‑examination.

PN31

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Paul?

PN32

MS PAUL: We're in a similar position, your Honour. We seek to cross‑examine all the witnesses, but we will obviously not raise anything that's already been raised, depending on who starts. My belief, your Honour, is that the parties shouldn't be taking that long. We should be able to complete it in a day.

PN33

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Zhou, is there any desire on your part to cross‑examine these witnesses?

PN34

MS ZHOU: Not at this stage. Similar to the HIA, subject to the cross‑examination of the other parties, of course, and issues that may arise from that, but we don't seek to repeat any other issues that have already been raised, and at this moment we don't seek to cross‑examine any witnesses.

PN35

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you. Mr McGregor, subject to one matter I'm going to raise, I'm inclined to think that this can be done in a day, because the statements effectively deal with this fairly similar - same issues. Mr Crawford, can you confirm that there will be six witnesses?

PN36

MR CRAWFORD: Yes, sorry, your Honour, I did mention five, but you're correct, there are six, and I would like to, I guess, seek leave for some of those witnesses to appear by video‑link.

PN37

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That's all right. If you just make the request well beforehand, identify where they will be, then we'll arrange for the requisite video‑links.

PN38

MR CRAWFORD: Thank you.

PN39

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Can they all be arranged to appear, if it's limited to one day, on the 4th?

PN40

MR CRAWFORD: Yes. I've checked and they're all available on the Monday, yes.

PN41

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you. Mr Miller, will your witness be available on 4 March?

PN42

MR MILLER: Yes, that's correct, your Honour.

PN43

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. What I think I'll do is we'll simply confirm a listing for 4 March and vacate 5 March. I realise this is without notice, but there's one other matter I want to raise with the parties in respect of the draft determinations that were issued last year and the submissions in response.

PN44

Mr Maxwell, your organisation made a submission, I think it's fair to say, proposing some consequential variations to the Joinery Award and the Mobile Crane Hiring Award which hadn't really been raised before in the hearing. Perhaps that's taking it a little too far. There's one variation to the Joinery Award which you've said had not been included in the draft determinations, but there was also a submission that rest and recreation provisions be added to the Joinery Award and the Mobile Crane Hiring Award which I think were fairly new claims. They hadn't been foreshadowed before.

PN45

MR MAXWELL: Your Honour, those were part of our claims that were lodged because we sought a common clause to go in the three awards, and that was the basis that we prosecuted the claim.

PN46

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think it may be necessary for us to give other parties an opportunity to make submissions in response to that before we issue determinations for those two awards. Again, I realise this is without notice, but do the employer parties, if you have any recollection of those submissions, wish to have an opportunity to respond to them? Mr McGregor?

PN47

MR MCGREGOR: I think that we would be seeking an opportunity to respond to those submissions. I don't know the ins and outs off the top of my head, but I'm sure that we would.

PN48

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, I understand that. How long might you need to do that? If I give the parties 14 days, would that be sufficient?

PN49

MR MCGREGOR: I think that would be.

PN50

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Adler, do you have any recollection of those submissions?

PN51

MS ADLER: No, your Honour. My recollection was only that submissions were made in relation to the building award, but certainly we'd take the opportunity of 14 days to make any written submissions.

PN52

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Paul and Ms Zhou, do you have any recollection of those submissions?

PN53

MS PAUL: No, your Honour.

PN54

MS ZHOU: No, your Honour.

PN55

MS PAUL: Sorry, Ms Zhou, you can go.

PN56

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What I intend to do is, before the final determinations are made, to direct that any party which wishes to respond to the submissions of the CFMMEU dated 7 December 2018 in paragraphs 6 through to 8 will have 14 days to lodge a submission in reply. Is there anything further I can deal with now?

PN57

MS ADLER: Your Honour, just for the sake of absolute clarity, the only matters that will be dealt with on 4 March are cross‑examination of witnesses, nothing to do with any of the other provisional issues raised in the decision, or anything else to do with the draft determinations?

PN58

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Unless you tell me otherwise, subject to the matter I've spoken about with respect to the CFMMEU's submission about the draft determinations, the only outstanding issue is the issue of the allowances and rolling them up into an industry allowance.

PN59

The parties had undertaken a conference process to discuss resolving that and had also been given, as I recall it, a full opportunity to file written submissions about that. The only outstanding issue was that a number of employer parties had indicated that they wished to be heard in relation to the witness statements that had been filed which hadn't been part of the directions by two of the unions. Ms Adler, can you identify any other outstanding issue which needs to be dealt with that we've forgotten about?

PN60

MS ADLER: No, your Honour, I just wanted to confirm that the Full Bench didn't want to hear us on any other matter.

PN61

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No. All right. That's correct.

PN62

MR MAXWELL: Sorry, your Honour?

PN63

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, Mr Maxwell?

PN64

MR MAXWELL: It's really a matter I think that the HIA raised in proceedings before - in a matter before the President Justice Ross, and that's in regard to the payment of wages. I think she raised that in correspondence to Justice Ross and I think he indicated that was a matter that's being dealt with by this Full Bench. I just seek confirmation of that.

PN65

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes. I assure you, that will not be dealt with on 4 March.

PN66

MS ADLER: No, just ‑ ‑ ‑

PN67

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I thank the parties for their attendance and we'll now adjourn.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [10.11 AM]